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Re: Excerpts From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk

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  • prometheus_973
    Here Klemp talks about his EMR problems (etc) as he continues to use his scare tacticts on ECKists to keep them away from the Internet. Please comment on the
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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      Here Klemp talks about his EMR problems
      (etc) as he continues to use his scare
      tacticts on ECKists to keep them away
      from the Internet.

      Please comment on the following:

      HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
      chair with my radio and books nearby.
      I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
      for information.

      This is because my sensitivity to electromagnetic
      frequencies makes it impossible for me
      to use a computer."

      Klemp also mentioned that "those who
      go online are often overwhelmed by
      information."

      And, "many ECKists send things for me
      to try out and some work while others
      don't, but I've built up my stamina.
      Things were rough for a few years but
      are smoothing out now.

      It seems when doctors see new symptoms
      they get frightened, but things keep
      changing and you just have to learn to
      adapt." [end]

      Prometheus



      Prometheus wrote:
      Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
      We are simply here when people are
      ready for the teachings."

      Now why then is so much time, money,
      and service is focused upon if this statement
      was true? Why is there a spiritual year
      called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
      this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
      and have so much focus "geared" to the
      publicity and promotion of ECKankar
      VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
      the Consciousness of long-time current
      (paying) members by handing out more
      and Higher Initiations if that statement
      was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

      FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
      it always happens when he opens his mouth
      and words come out. And I've noticed that
      HK's crooked little smile will either come before
      or after the lies.

      Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
      as he did last year, that "all of the names
      I use for the characters in my stories are
      fictitious. I use a book of names written for
      writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
      names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
      names."

      Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
      But, since he brought up the topic of novels
      and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
      fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
      a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
      has taken him since he's the one who pointed
      it out.

      Of course EKies will see this differently
      and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
      Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
      and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
      due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
      Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

      HK also stated that, "I like to be around
      other people [really?] and the ECK touches
      them in some way but I don't try to control
      It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
      ECKists!

      But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
      and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
      be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
      The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
      as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
      stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
      he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
      Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
      poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
      important even though they are of the Mental
      (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
      aura when around others. His aura will just
      dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
      of those he meets at the grocery store and
      other public places!

      And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
      is not only using fictitious names, because
      he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
      the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
      BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

      Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
      who write "Novels" (fiction).

      I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
      and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
      right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
      I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
      subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
      why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
      afterwards.

      After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
      that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
      to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
      because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
      (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
      contemplate and regain my balance and my
      independence as Soul. However, there is a
      greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
      they call ECKankar.

      More excerpts later--

      Prometheus


      Prometheus wrote:
      It seems that Klemp is always
      thinking he needs to remind ECKists
      of their basic beliefs! It does make
      for a simplified talk that requires
      minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
      getting tired of Klemp talking down
      to them? What happened to Higher
      Consciousness? Has it come down
      to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

      The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
      that Physical Experience and the
      burning off of Karma results in the
      (eventual) purification of Soul.

      However, Initiation helps to speedup
      this burn-off process. Thus, being
      "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
      supposedly, key in speeding up this
      process of more rapidly burning off
      of Karma with "inner" experiences
      and via the "Master" taking on some
      of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
      Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
      leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
      of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

      I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
      (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
      Temple, but it has the potential due
      to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
      games being played. Let's face it--the
      disenfranchised are attracted to religions
      like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
      can become the Living God!

      Prometheus

      Liska wrote:
      HK's outer directed focus continues.
      Note how his attention is placed
      on the Kal again. We could ask
      ourselves, why does someone who
      claims to be God Realized and the
      incarnation of God on earth and in
      all the universes spend so much time
      talking about the devil? Does he even
      have a clue what people living under
      different governments are supposed
      to learn? It's easy to come up with
      platitudes, but why not offer some
      reasons for why something is what
      it is? Purification is a stock phrase
      that can be used in conjunction with
      anything.

      Liska

      Prometheus wrote:

      ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

      HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
      gears just as various groups of people do.
      These things, like the economic crisis and
      wars, don't just happen. They are caused
      by people acting as Unconscious Agents
      of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
      a process of purification involved with shifting
      gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
      or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
      there, are there because the people of that
      country have things to learn."
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, I thought that I d give my insights and comment more on Klemp s talk. *** HK: I work at home and sit in a rocking chair with my radio and books
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 19, 2008
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        Hello All,
        I thought that I'd give my insights
        and comment more on Klemp's talk.

        ***

        HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
        chair with my radio and books nearby.
        I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
        for information."

        *ME: Yes, Harold has a job where he
        "works" at home. Actually, Klemp's
        been retired for a number of years.
        Writing books is more like a hobby
        for him. ECKists should kick Klemp
        to the curb. This is the 21st Century
        and Master Klemp is sitting in a rocking
        chair listening to talk shows like Paul
        Harvey and Rush while reading the
        dictionary! I'm sure the Boring EK Master
        does do this at times... when he's not
        on the Internet or yelling at Joan to
        be quiet and stop talking!

        HK: "This is because my sensitivity to
        electromagnetic frequencies makes
        it impossible for me to use a computer."

        *ME: What a load of Bullshit! They don't
        even make CRT's anymore do they?
        Klemp is taking a two prong approach.
        One prong is to keep ECKists away from
        the Internet and the other is to have an
        excuse for his illnesses while, also, making
        it seem that he doesn't use a computer
        to do research or to read this site.

        HK: "...those who go online are often
        overwhelmed by information."

        *ME: That sounds like a person who
        goes online to do research! LOL! Klemp
        reminds me of Dubya or Palin at times.
        He just can't help what comes out of
        his mouth. Not all of his chelas are
        mindless, brain-washed and stupid.
        There are some chelas that now realize
        they've been duped and short-changed!

        HK: "... many ECKists send things
        for me to try out and some work
        while others don't, but I've built up
        my stamina. Things were rough for
        a few years but are smoothing out now."

        *ME: Wait a minute! Why wouldn't the
        Mahanta Consciousness "KNOW" what
        would work and what wouldn't? And,
        why would the Mahanta need others
        who are of what level of consciousness
        (the 7th or lower) to send remedies to
        the 14th Plane "Full" Mahanta! That doesn't
        make sense does it? That's because Klemp
        isn't who and what he claims to be! It's
        obvious! Look at what Klemp said!!!
        Anyone who is of the Highest Consciousness
        of all Planes and all universes would "KNOW."
        This is like sending GOD a remedy because
        HE gets sick and needs "our" help in knowing
        what to do to get better! LOL! Is this thinking
        stupid or what?

        HK: "It seems when doctors see new
        symptoms they get frightened, but things
        keep changing and you just have to learn
        to adapt." [end]

        *ME: No! That's not how it works and
        anyone with some common sense knows
        this! Doctors don't get "frightened" when
        they see a patient with "new symptoms"
        unless the doctor is a quack!

        The patient is the one who might be
        alarmed or "frightened" not the doctor!

        I'm thinking that Klemp wouldn't have
        said this unless he's the one that had
        been "frightened" by a new symptom
        that he reported to the doctor. And that
        the doctor needed to "change" Klemp's
        medication.

        Of course, Klemp should have stopped
        using the medication when he noticed
        "new symptoms" or what might have been
        side effects of the medication. People just
        have to weigh whether or not the side effects
        of medication are all that bad when considering
        living with the effects of their disease.

        In any case, upon closer analysis of what
        Klemp has said, it is clear that Klemp is
        a fraud and should have stepped down
        15 years ago! Unfortunately, it looks like
        he's staying for 10 more years for a total
        of 3 Twelve Year Cycles, or until his death!
        Klemp, it would seem, wants to take ECKankar
        to the grave with him! What a narcissist!

        Prometheus



        Prometheus wrote:
        Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
        We are simply here when people are
        ready for the teachings."

        Now why then is so much time, money,
        and service is focused upon if this statement
        was true? Why is there a spiritual year
        called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
        this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
        and have so much focus "geared" to the
        publicity and promotion of ECKankar
        VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
        the Consciousness of long-time current
        (paying) members by handing out more
        and Higher Initiations if that statement
        was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

        FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
        it always happens when he opens his mouth
        and words come out. And I've noticed that
        HK's crooked little smile will either come before
        or after the lies.

        Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
        as he did last year, that "all of the names
        I use for the characters in my stories are
        fictitious. I use a book of names written for
        writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
        names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
        names."

        Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
        But, since he brought up the topic of novels
        and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
        fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
        a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
        has taken him since he's the one who pointed
        it out.

        Of course EKies will see this differently
        and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
        Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
        and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
        due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
        Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

        HK also stated that, "I like to be around
        other people [really?] and the ECK touches
        them in some way but I don't try to control
        It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
        ECKists!

        But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
        and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
        be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
        The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
        as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
        stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
        he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
        Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
        poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
        important even though they are of the Mental
        (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
        aura when around others. His aura will just
        dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
        of those he meets at the grocery store and
        other public places!

        And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
        is not only using fictitious names, because
        he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
        the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
        BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

        Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
        who write "Novels" (fiction).

        I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
        and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
        right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
        I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
        subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
        why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
        afterwards.

        After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
        that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
        to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
        because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
        (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
        contemplate and regain my balance and my
        independence as Soul. However, there is a
        greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
        they call ECKankar.

        More excerpts later--

        Prometheus


        Prometheus wrote:
        It seems that Klemp is always
        thinking he needs to remind ECKists
        of their basic beliefs! It does make
        for a simplified talk that requires
        minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
        getting tired of Klemp talking down
        to them? What happened to Higher
        Consciousness? Has it come down
        to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

        The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
        that Physical Experience and the
        burning off of Karma results in the
        (eventual) purification of Soul.

        However, Initiation helps to speedup
        this burn-off process. Thus, being
        "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
        supposedly, key in speeding up this
        process of more rapidly burning off
        of Karma with "inner" experiences
        and via the "Master" taking on some
        of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
        Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
        leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
        of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

        I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
        (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
        Temple, but it has the potential due
        to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
        games being played. Let's face it--the
        disenfranchised are attracted to religions
        like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
        can become the Living God!

        Prometheus

        Liska wrote:
        HK's outer directed focus continues.
        Note how his attention is placed
        on the Kal again. We could ask
        ourselves, why does someone who
        claims to be God Realized and the
        incarnation of God on earth and in
        all the universes spend so much time
        talking about the devil? Does he even
        have a clue what people living under
        different governments are supposed
        to learn? It's easy to come up with
        platitudes, but why not offer some
        reasons for why something is what
        it is? Purification is a stock phrase
        that can be used in conjunction with
        anything.

        Liska

        Prometheus wrote:

        ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

        HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
        gears just as various groups of people do.
        These things, like the economic crisis and
        wars, don't just happen. They are caused
        by people acting as Unconscious Agents
        of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
        a process of purification involved with shifting
        gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
        or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
        there, are there because the people of that
        country have things to learn."
      • prometheus_973
        Klemp mentions Thanksgiving and that, I like it because there s no obligation to buy gifts... People get together with family and friends to have a good time
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 26, 2008
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          Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
          and that, "I like it because there's
          no obligation to buy gifts... People
          get together with family and friends
          to have a good time and it's a time
          to be grateful for our blessings."

          Maybe the Klemps will be driving
          over to the Appleton, Wisconsin
          area to have Thanksgiving with Harry's
          brother and other family members?
          Who knows maybe HK's sister might
          fly in from the west coast. I wonder
          if Harry would spend the money to
          fly his daughter and 3 grandkids in?

          This is a better holiday for Harry because
          he doesn't have to shop and buy gifts!
          I doubt if Harry and Joan see anyone
          during Christmas. They might even
          take a cruise, or stay at Peter's house
          in the Tampa area.

          However, Klemp's comments only
          state the obvious. Yes, it is a time
          that many people in the U.S. to get
          together with family and friends in
          order to show gratitude and to give
          thanks for what they have. However,
          people should give thanks everyday.

          MORE PROOF that Klemp is Not
          an ECK Master:

          I'm still disappointed with Klemp
          for not having mentioned Darwin's
          death and for not taking a moment
          to say something nice about him.

          Why mention Paul Newman's death
          in his 2008 EWWS talk and not Darwin
          Gross'?

          Darwin gave Klemp his highest initiations
          and handed him the LEM position in 1981!

          This is just more proof that Klemp is
          mean-spirited and lacks compassion
          and love. Klemp's inaction and omission
          of mentioning Darwin shows that he is
          still holding a grudge (anger and hatred)
          and this is proof that HK cannot be an
          ECK Master and Mahanta! ECK Masters
          are supposed to be above the fray, but
          Klemp has proven that he is not! This
          was a sin of omission by a narcissist,
          and a KAL agent!

          Klemp fell from Grace years ago and
          has a death grip on his position of
          power and prestige. This is attachment!

          Many ECKists can see this, but are
          fearful to say anything. Besides, who
          can they complain to? Everyone knows
          that people are blacklisted on initiations
          and positions if they complain or say
          too much. And, the EK Board is powerless
          to do anything because of the way in
          which Klemp restructured the org. after
          he kicked Darwin to the curb. The Mahanta
          now has sole authority over the president
          (and LEM) whereas before (with Darwin)
          this was not the case. This is also why
          Klemp was trying to make it seem that
          Darwin was Not a Mahanta.

          How could/would a 12th depose a FULL
          14th Mahanta! He can't according to EK
          Dogma and, thereby, by law (in case there
          was an appeal). Thus, HK had to make two
          claims about Darwin: 1.) Darwin was never
          a 14th FULL Mahanta 2.) Darwin fell from
          Grace and was kicked out of the Vairagi Order,
          but only HK (a living 12th) would know this!

          Yet, 8th initiate Tom Flamma stated (in his
          book) that Darwin was the Mahanta and HK
          gave validity to Flamma for his prophecy of
          the next LEM told to a group of men.

          BTW- Did Klemp ever write or say (early
          on) that Darwin was the Mahanta?

          Prometheus

          Prometheus wrote:
          I thought that I'd give my insights
          and comment more on Klemp's talk.

          ***

          HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
          chair with my radio and books nearby.
          I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
          for information."

          *ME: Yes, Harold has a job where he
          "works" at home. Actually, Klemp's
          been retired for a number of years.
          Writing books is more like a hobby
          for him. ECKists should kick Klemp
          to the curb. This is the 21st Century
          and Master Klemp is sitting in a rocking
          chair listening to talk shows like Paul
          Harvey and Rush while reading the
          dictionary! I'm sure the Boring EK Master
          does do this at times... when he's not
          on the Internet or yelling at Joan to
          be quiet and stop talking!

          HK: "This is because my sensitivity to
          electromagnetic frequencies makes
          it impossible for me to use a computer."

          *ME: What a load of Bullshit! They don't
          even make CRT's anymore do they?
          Klemp is taking a two prong approach.
          One prong is to keep ECKists away from
          the Internet and the other is to have an
          excuse for his illnesses while, also, making
          it seem that he doesn't use a computer
          to do research or to read this site.

          HK: "...those who go online are often
          overwhelmed by information."

          *ME: That sounds like a person who
          goes online to do research! LOL! Klemp
          reminds me of Dubya or Palin at times.
          He just can't help what comes out of
          his mouth. Not all of his chelas are
          mindless, brain-washed and stupid.
          There are some chelas that now realize
          they've been duped and short-changed!

          HK: "... many ECKists send things
          for me to try out and some work
          while others don't, but I've built up
          my stamina. Things were rough for
          a few years but are smoothing out now."

          *ME: Wait a minute! Why wouldn't the
          Mahanta Consciousness "KNOW" what
          would work and what wouldn't? And,
          why would the Mahanta need others
          who are of what level of consciousness
          (the 7th or lower) to send remedies to
          the 14th Plane "Full" Mahanta! That doesn't
          make sense does it? That's because Klemp
          isn't who and what he claims to be! It's
          obvious! Look at what Klemp said!!!
          Anyone who is of the Highest Consciousness
          of all Planes and all universes would "KNOW."
          This is like sending GOD a remedy because
          HE gets sick and needs "our" help in knowing
          what to do to get better! LOL! Is this thinking
          stupid or what?

          HK: "It seems when doctors see new
          symptoms they get frightened, but things
          keep changing and you just have to learn
          to adapt." [end]

          *ME: No! That's not how it works and
          anyone with some common sense knows
          this! Doctors don't get "frightened" when
          they see a patient with "new symptoms"
          unless the doctor is a quack!

          The patient is the one who might be
          alarmed or "frightened" not the doctor!

          I'm thinking that Klemp wouldn't have
          said this unless he's the one that had
          been "frightened" by a new symptom
          that he reported to the doctor. And that
          the doctor needed to "change" Klemp's
          medication.

          Of course, Klemp should have stopped
          using the medication when he noticed
          "new symptoms" or what might have been
          side effects of the medication. People just
          have to weigh whether or not the side effects
          of medication are all that bad when considering
          living with the effects of their disease.

          In any case, upon closer analysis of what
          Klemp has said, it is clear that Klemp is
          a fraud and should have stepped down
          15 years ago! Unfortunately, it looks like
          he's staying for 10 more years for a total
          of 3 Twelve Year Cycles, or until his death!
          Klemp, it would seem, wants to take ECKankar
          to the grave with him! What a narcissist!

          Prometheus



          Prometheus wrote:
          Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
          We are simply here when people are
          ready for the teachings."

          Now why then is so much time, money,
          and service is focused upon if this statement
          was true? Why is there a spiritual year
          called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
          this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
          and have so much focus "geared" to the
          publicity and promotion of ECKankar
          VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
          the Consciousness of long-time current
          (paying) members by handing out more
          and Higher Initiations if that statement
          was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

          FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
          it always happens when he opens his mouth
          and words come out. And I've noticed that
          HK's crooked little smile will either come before
          or after the lies.

          Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
          as he did last year, that "all of the names
          I use for the characters in my stories are
          fictitious. I use a book of names written for
          writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
          names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
          names."

          Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
          But, since he brought up the topic of novels
          and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
          fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
          a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
          has taken him since he's the one who pointed
          it out.

          Of course EKies will see this differently
          and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
          Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
          and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
          due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
          Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

          HK also stated that, "I like to be around
          other people [really?] and the ECK touches
          them in some way but I don't try to control
          It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
          ECKists!

          But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
          and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
          be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
          The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
          as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
          stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
          he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
          Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
          poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
          important even though they are of the Mental
          (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
          aura when around others. His aura will just
          dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
          of those he meets at the grocery store and
          other public places!

          And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
          is not only using fictitious names, because
          he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
          the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
          BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

          Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
          who write "Novels" (fiction).

          I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
          and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
          right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
          I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
          subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
          why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
          afterwards.

          After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
          that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
          to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
          because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
          (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
          contemplate and regain my balance and my
          independence as Soul. However, there is a
          greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
          they call ECKankar.

          More excerpts later--

          Prometheus


          Prometheus wrote:
          It seems that Klemp is always
          thinking he needs to remind ECKists
          of their basic beliefs! It does make
          for a simplified talk that requires
          minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
          getting tired of Klemp talking down
          to them? What happened to Higher
          Consciousness? Has it come down
          to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

          The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
          that Physical Experience and the
          burning off of Karma results in the
          (eventual) purification of Soul.

          However, Initiation helps to speedup
          this burn-off process. Thus, being
          "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
          supposedly, key in speeding up this
          process of more rapidly burning off
          of Karma with "inner" experiences
          and via the "Master" taking on some
          of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
          Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
          leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
          of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

          I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
          (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
          Temple, but it has the potential due
          to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
          games being played. Let's face it--the
          disenfranchised are attracted to religions
          like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
          can become the Living God!

          Prometheus

          Liska wrote:
          HK's outer directed focus continues.
          Note how his attention is placed
          on the Kal again. We could ask
          ourselves, why does someone who
          claims to be God Realized and the
          incarnation of God on earth and in
          all the universes spend so much time
          talking about the devil? Does he even
          have a clue what people living under
          different governments are supposed
          to learn? It's easy to come up with
          platitudes, but why not offer some
          reasons for why something is what
          it is? Purification is a stock phrase
          that can be used in conjunction with
          anything.

          Liska

          Prometheus wrote:

          ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

          HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
          gears just as various groups of people do.
          These things, like the economic crisis and
          wars, don't just happen. They are caused
          by people acting as Unconscious Agents
          of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
          a process of purification involved with shifting
          gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
          or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
          there, are there because the people of that
          country have things to learn."
        • drubezarne
          Prometheus, These excerpts from the Eckankar World Wide present the benign public face of Harold Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman who is the leader of a
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 27, 2008
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            Prometheus,

            These excerpts from the Eckankar World Wide present the benign public
            face of Harold Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman who is the
            leader of a religion called Eckankar. To the unaware public, his
            statements seem harmless and introduce them to a teaching that seems
            good-natured and tenderhearted. To the brainwashed eckist, Harold
            Klemp shows himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle Master.

            Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility and view the real face
            of Eckankar and its leader Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
            from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from a discourse series that
            only higher initiates receive after many years of indoctrination.

            "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold) can bring the
            advanced Soul to these heights, for none has the power but him." (
            Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses, Third Series, p 76).

            "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon anyone who …deserts the
            Master….Not once will he see the connection between his betrayal …and
            the horrendous troubles that strike him down like a plague on every
            hand.  And thus he goes downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
            despair….  " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses, Third Series,
            Letter 8).

            "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their old karma once more.
            More, the karma of all those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
            their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store for them." (Mystic
            World, Ask The Master by Harold Klemp, March 2004).

            "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp) conducts his affairs
            from this high state of awareness during all of a twenty-four hour
            day." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)

            "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp) is the embodiment
            of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK, and therefore represents the entire
            ocean of love and compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
            who operates under the strictures of the human level of perception."
            (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 20).

            Prometheus, if you can open up the files section, we could upload many
            more quotes like this that show the real face of Eckankar and its
            leaders. Let's make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
            of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics of Eckankar's
            Master who warns against revealing the secrets of the Satsang discourses.

            Regards
            Liska

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
            > and that, "I like it because there's
            > no obligation to buy gifts... People
            > get together with family and friends
            > to have a good time and it's a time
            > to be grateful for our blessings."
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Liska, Klemp isn t too tenderhearted or compassionate when it comes to Darwin! Not mentioning DG s death was unforgiving. It s incredible that long-time
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 27, 2008
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              Hi Liska,
              Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
              compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
              Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.

              It's incredible that long-time ECKists
              are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
              toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
              to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
              the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
              We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
              every detail of existence or about everyone
              and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!

              However, we can all see the proof that
              Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
              nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!

              No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
              ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
              Mahanta and that his death should have been
              mentioned along with some kind words spoken
              on his behalf.

              Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
              to think they possess? It's Not there and never
              can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
              their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
              to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
              and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
              Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
              handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
              growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
              Years than in Klemp's 27!

              It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
              for Klemp to have said something nice about
              Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
              Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
              a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
              and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
              Darwin Gross.


              BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
              setting up some files for various subjects
              like "ECKankar Threats."


              Prometheus

              Liska wrote:
              Prometheus,
              These excerpts from the Eckankar World
              Wide present the benign public face of Harold
              Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
              who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
              To the unaware public, his statements seem
              harmless and introduce them to a teaching
              that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
              To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
              himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
              Master.

              Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
              and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
              Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
              from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
              a discourse series that only higher initiates
              receive after many years of indoctrination.

              "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
              (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
              heights, for none has the power but him."
              (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
              Third Series, p 76).

              "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
              anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
              will he see the connection between his betrayal …
              and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
              like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
              downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
              despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
              Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).

              "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
              old karma once more. More, the karma of all
              those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
              their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
              for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
              Harold Klemp, March 2004).

              "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
              conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
              during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
              The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)

              "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
              is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
              and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
              compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
              who operates under the strictures of the human level
              of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
              Fourth Series, Page 20).

              Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
              we could upload many more quotes like this that
              show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
              make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
              of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
              of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
              secrets of the Satsang discourses.

              Regards
              Liska

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
              > and that, "I like it because there's
              > no obligation to buy gifts... People
              > get together with family and friends
              > to have a good time and it's a time
              > to be grateful for our blessings."
            • drubezarne
              Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3 Eckankar frauds. He doesn t deserve any compassion. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 28, 2008
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                Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                riddance to bad rubbish.

                Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                yet and so decided to wait 10 years.

                Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.

                It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.

                There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                just another delusional eckist.

                I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                help to anyone curious about Eckankar.

                Regards
                Liska

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Liska,
                > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                >
                > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                > every detail of existence or about everyone
                > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                >
                > However, we can all see the proof that
                > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                >
                > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                > on his behalf.
                >
                > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                >
                > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                > Darwin Gross.
                >
                >
                > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                > setting up some files for various subjects
                > like "ECKankar Threats."
                >
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Liska wrote:
                > Prometheus,
                > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                > Master.
                >
                > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                >
                > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                > heights, for none has the power but him."
                > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                > Third Series, p 76).
                >
                > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                >
                > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                >
                > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                >
                > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                >
                > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                >
                > Regards
                > Liska
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                > > and that, "I like it because there's
                > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                > > get together with family and friends
                > > to have a good time and it's a time
                > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                >
              • mishmisha9
                Liska, you re right who should care about Darwin Gross, really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta is treated so callously by the present
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 29, 2008
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                  Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                  really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                  is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                  since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                  that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                  example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                  point that out.

                  I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                  hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                  mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                  narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                  with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                  were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                  how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                  counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                  Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne" <drubezarne@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                  > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                  > riddance to bad rubbish.
                  >
                  > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                  > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                  > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                  > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                  > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                  > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                  >
                  > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                  > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                  > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                  > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                  > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                  > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                  >
                  > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                  > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                  > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                  >
                  > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                  > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                  > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                  > just another delusional eckist.
                  >
                  > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                  > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                  > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > Liska
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Liska,
                  > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                  > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                  > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                  > >
                  > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                  > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                  > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                  > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                  > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                  > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                  > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                  > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                  > >
                  > > However, we can all see the proof that
                  > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                  > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                  > >
                  > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                  > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                  > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                  > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                  > > on his behalf.
                  > >
                  > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                  > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                  > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                  > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                  > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                  > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                  > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                  > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                  > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                  > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                  > >
                  > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                  > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                  > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                  > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                  > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                  > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                  > > Darwin Gross.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                  > > setting up some files for various subjects
                  > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > > Liska wrote:
                  > > Prometheus,
                  > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                  > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                  > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                  > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                  > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                  > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                  > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                  > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                  > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                  > > Master.
                  > >
                  > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                  > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                  > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                  > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                  > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                  > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                  > >
                  > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                  > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                  > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                  > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                  > > Third Series, p 76).
                  > >
                  > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                  > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                  > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                  > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                  > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                  > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                  > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                  > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                  > >
                  > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                  > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                  > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                  > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                  > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                  > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                  > >
                  > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                  > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                  > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                  > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                  > >
                  > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                  > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                  > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                  > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                  > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                  > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                  > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                  > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                  > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                  > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                  > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                  > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                  > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > > Liska
                  > >
                  > > prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                  > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                  > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                  > > > get together with family and friends
                  > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                  > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                  > >
                  >
                • drubezarne
                  Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I m wondering if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its pseudo-master Harold
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
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                    Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                    if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                    pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                    something and missing the bigger picture.

                    Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                    signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                    giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                    would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                    followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                    anybody who has the courage to leave him.

                    I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                    said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                    this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                    other spiritual/religious principles.

                    For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                    you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                    record, then you could help out here.

                    Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...

                    1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                    the universes.

                    2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                    of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                    times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."

                    3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                    numerously the "Awakened Dream".

                    4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                    making it the main focus for eckists.

                    Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                    and then we could examine each.

                    Regards
                    Liska

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                    <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                    > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                    > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                    > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                    > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                    > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                    > point that out.
                    >
                    > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                    > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                    > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                    > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                    > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                    > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                    > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                    > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                    > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
                    <drubezarne@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                    > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                    > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                    > >
                    > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                    > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                    > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                    > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                    > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                    > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                    > >
                    > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                    > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                    > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                    > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                    > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                    > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                    > >
                    > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                    > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                    > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                    > >
                    > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                    > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                    > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                    > > just another delusional eckist.
                    > >
                    > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                    > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                    > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                    > >
                    > > Regards
                    > > Liska
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Liska,
                    > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                    > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                    > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                    > > >
                    > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                    > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                    > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                    > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                    > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                    > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                    > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                    > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                    > > >
                    > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                    > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                    > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                    > > >
                    > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                    > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                    > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                    > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                    > > > on his behalf.
                    > > >
                    > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                    > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                    > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                    > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                    > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                    > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                    > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                    > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                    > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                    > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                    > > >
                    > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                    > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                    > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                    > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                    > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                    > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                    > > > Darwin Gross.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                    > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                    > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > > > Liska wrote:
                    > > > Prometheus,
                    > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                    > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                    > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                    > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                    > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                    > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                    > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                    > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                    > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                    > > > Master.
                    > > >
                    > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                    > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                    > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                    > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                    > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                    > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                    > > >
                    > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                    > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                    > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                    > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                    > > > Third Series, p 76).
                    > > >
                    > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                    > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                    > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                    > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                    > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                    > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                    > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                    > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                    > > >
                    > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                    > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                    > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                    > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                    > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                    > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                    > > >
                    > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                    > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                    > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                    > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                    > > >
                    > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                    > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                    > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                    > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                    > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                    > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                    > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                    > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                    > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                    > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                    > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                    > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                    > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                    > > >
                    > > > Regards
                    > > > Liska
                    > > >
                    > > > prometheus wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                    > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                    > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                    > > > > get together with family and friends
                    > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                    > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Liska and All, I can t speak for Mish, but with Klemp the devil is in the details. Therefore, I don t see that there has been too much focus on trivial
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Liska and All,
                      I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                      the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                      I don't see that there has been too much
                      focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                      The little pictures tend to complete the
                      big picture. I don't see anything trivial.

                      For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                      at and piecing together the missing parts
                      to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                      the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                      pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                      why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.

                      However, if you want to focus more on the
                      "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                      thinking that the focus here has been on both
                      the big and the small pictures.

                      But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                      a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                      and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                      show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                      delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                      character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                      early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                      divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                      bigger picture?

                      For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                      Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                      ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                      or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                      Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                      met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                      transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                      One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                      as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                      of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).

                      The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                      when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                      that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                      2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                      "common language" for AUM.

                      When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                      of the Light and Sound of God?

                      Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"

                      When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                      spin?

                      When was the RESA org. first created?

                      When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                      and Why?

                      When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                      the Mahanta?"

                      When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"

                      BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                      as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                      the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                      the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                      thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                      "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                      Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                      intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]

                      And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                      and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                      die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                      him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                      Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                      is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                      that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                      for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!

                      Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                      and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                      to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.

                      Prometheus


                      pjr_sr wrote:
                      Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                      if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                      pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                      something and missing the bigger picture.

                      Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                      signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                      giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                      would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                      followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                      anybody who has the courage to leave him.

                      I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                      said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                      this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                      other spiritual/religious principles.

                      For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                      you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                      record, then you could help out here.

                      Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...

                      1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                      the universes.

                      2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                      of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                      times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."

                      3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                      numerously the "Awakened Dream".

                      4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                      making it the main focus for eckists.

                      Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                      and then we could examine each.

                      Regards
                      Liska


                      mishmisha9@wrote:
                      >
                      > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                      > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                      > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                      > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                      > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                      > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                      > point that out.
                      >
                      > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                      > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                      > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                      > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                      > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                      > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                      > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                      > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                      > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                      >
                      > Mish
                      >

                      drubezarne@wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                      > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                      > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                      > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                      > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                      > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                      > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                      > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                      > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                      > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                      > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                      > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                      > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                      > >
                      > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                      > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                      > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                      > >
                      > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                      > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                      > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                      > > just another delusional eckist.
                      > >
                      > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                      > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                      > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > > Liska
                      > >

                      > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Liska,
                      > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                      > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                      > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                      > > >
                      > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                      > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                      > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                      > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                      > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                      > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                      > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                      > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                      > > >
                      > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                      > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                      > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                      > > >
                      > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                      > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                      > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                      > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                      > > > on his behalf.
                      > > >
                      > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                      > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                      > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                      > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                      > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                      > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                      > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                      > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                      > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                      > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                      > > >
                      > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                      > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                      > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                      > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                      > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                      > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                      > > > Darwin Gross.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                      > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                      > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > > Liska wrote:
                      > > > Prometheus,
                      > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                      > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                      > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                      > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                      > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                      > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                      > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                      > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                      > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                      > > > Master.
                      > > >
                      > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                      > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                      > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                      > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                      > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                      > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                      > > >
                      > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                      > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                      > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                      > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                      > > > Third Series, p 76).
                      > > >
                      > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                      > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                      > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                      > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                      > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                      > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                      > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                      > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                      > > >
                      > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                      > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                      > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                      > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                      > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                      > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                      > > >
                      > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                      > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                      > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                      > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                      > > >
                      > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                      > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                      > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                      > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                      > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                      > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                      > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                      > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                      > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                      > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                      > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                      > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                      > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards
                      > > > Liska
                      > > >
                      > > > prometheus wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                      > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                      > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                      > > > > get together with family and friends
                      > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                      > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                      > > >
                    • drubezarne
                      Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got rid of all my Eckankar
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
                        Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
                        rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation. All
                        I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as I
                        can and move on to better things.

                        So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
                        anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
                        leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of it
                        is old.

                        Regards
                        Liska

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Liska and All,
                        > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                        > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                        > I don't see that there has been too much
                        > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                        > The little pictures tend to complete the
                        > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
                        >
                        > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                        > at and piecing together the missing parts
                        > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                        > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                        > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                        > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
                        >
                        > However, if you want to focus more on the
                        > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                        > thinking that the focus here has been on both
                        > the big and the small pictures.
                        >
                        > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                        > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                        > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                        > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                        > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                        > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                        > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                        > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                        > bigger picture?
                        >
                        > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                        > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                        > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                        > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                        > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                        > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                        > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                        > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                        > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                        > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
                        >
                        > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                        > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                        > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                        > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                        > "common language" for AUM.
                        >
                        > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                        > of the Light and Sound of God?
                        >
                        > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
                        >
                        > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                        > spin?
                        >
                        > When was the RESA org. first created?
                        >
                        > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                        > and Why?
                        >
                        > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                        > the Mahanta?"
                        >
                        > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
                        >
                        > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                        > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                        > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                        > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                        > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                        > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                        > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                        > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
                        >
                        > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                        > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                        > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                        > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                        > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                        > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                        > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                        > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
                        >
                        > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                        > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                        > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > pjr_sr wrote:
                        > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                        > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                        > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                        > something and missing the bigger picture.
                        >
                        > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                        > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                        > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                        > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                        > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                        > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
                        >
                        > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                        > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                        > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                        > other spiritual/religious principles.
                        >
                        > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                        > you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                        > record, then you could help out here.
                        >
                        > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
                        >
                        > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                        > the universes.
                        >
                        > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                        > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                        > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."
                        >
                        > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                        > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
                        >
                        > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                        > making it the main focus for eckists.
                        >
                        > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                        > and then we could examine each.
                        >
                        > Regards
                        > Liska
                        >
                        >
                        > mishmisha9@wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                        > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                        > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                        > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                        > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                        > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                        > > point that out.
                        > >
                        > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                        > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                        > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                        > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                        > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                        > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                        > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                        > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                        > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                        > >
                        > > Mish
                        > >
                        >
                        > drubezarne@wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of
                        the 3
                        > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                        > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                        > > >
                        > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
                        rid of
                        > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                        > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                        > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                        > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready
                        for it
                        > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                        > > >
                        > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                        > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
                        to the
                        > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                        > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
                        say that
                        > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                        > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                        > > >
                        > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                        > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle,
                        but he
                        > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
                        master.
                        > > >
                        > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                        > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                        > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                        > > > just another delusional eckist.
                        > > >
                        > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                        > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                        > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                        > > >
                        > > > Regards
                        > > > Liska
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi Liska,
                        > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                        > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                        > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                        > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                        > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                        > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                        > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                        > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                        > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                        > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                        > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                        > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                        > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                        > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                        > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                        > > > > on his behalf.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                        > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                        > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                        > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                        > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                        > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                        > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                        > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                        > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                        > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                        > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                        > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                        > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                        > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                        > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                        > > > > Darwin Gross.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                        > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                        > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Prometheus
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Liska wrote:
                        > > > > Prometheus,
                        > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                        > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                        > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                        > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                        > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                        > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                        > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                        > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                        > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                        > > > > Master.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                        > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                        > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                        > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                        > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                        > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                        > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                        > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                        > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                        > > > > Third Series, p 76).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                        > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                        > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                        > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                        > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                        > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                        > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                        > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                        > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                        > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                        > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                        > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                        > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                        > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                        > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                        > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                        > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                        > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                        > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                        > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                        > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                        > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                        > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                        > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                        > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                        > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                        > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                        > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Regards
                        > > > > Liska
                        > > > >
                        > > > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                        > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                        > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                        > > > > > get together with family and friends
                        > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                        > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                        > > > >
                        >
                      • D.R.D.
                        Responded to this thread earlier in the evening. Mentioned that I had not received Yahoo Groups messages in the past few days. They were bouncing. Apparently,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 1, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Responded to this thread earlier
                          in the evening. Mentioned that I had
                          not received Yahoo Groups messages in
                          the past few days. They were bouncing.

                          Apparently, that response bounced
                          too? Anyhow, I think my Yahoo e-mail
                          is normal (and working) now.

                          Etznab

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
                          <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
                          > Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
                          > rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation.
                          All
                          > I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as
                          I
                          > can and move on to better things.
                          >
                          > So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
                          > anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
                          > leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of
                          it
                          > is old.
                          >
                          > Regards
                          > Liska
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello Liska and All,
                          > > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                          > > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                          > > I don't see that there has been too much
                          > > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                          > > The little pictures tend to complete the
                          > > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
                          > >
                          > > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                          > > at and piecing together the missing parts
                          > > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                          > > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                          > > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                          > > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
                          > >
                          > > However, if you want to focus more on the
                          > > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                          > > thinking that the focus here has been on both
                          > > the big and the small pictures.
                          > >
                          > > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                          > > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                          > > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                          > > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                          > > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                          > > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                          > > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                          > > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                          > > bigger picture?
                          > >
                          > > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                          > > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                          > > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                          > > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                          > > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                          > > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                          > > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                          > > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                          > > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                          > > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
                          > >
                          > > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                          > > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                          > > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                          > > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                          > > "common language" for AUM.
                          > >
                          > > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                          > > of the Light and Sound of God?
                          > >
                          > > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
                          > >
                          > > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                          > > spin?
                          > >
                          > > When was the RESA org. first created?
                          > >
                          > > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                          > > and Why?
                          > >
                          > > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                          > > the Mahanta?"
                          > >
                          > > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
                          > >
                          > > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                          > > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                          > > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                          > > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                          > > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                          > > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                          > > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                          > > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
                          > >
                          > > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                          > > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                          > > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                          > > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                          > > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                          > > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                          > > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                          > > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                          > > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                          > > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > pjr_sr wrote:
                          > > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm
                          wondering
                          > > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                          > > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely
                          at
                          > > something and missing the bigger picture.
                          > >
                          > > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would
                          see
                          > > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                          > > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                          > > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his
                          own
                          > > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                          > > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
                          > >
                          > > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp
                          has
                          > > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                          > > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                          > > other spiritual/religious principles.
                          > >
                          > > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab,
                          since
                          > > you said you are interested in researching and compiling
                          Eckankar's
                          > > record, then you could help out here.
                          > >
                          > > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
                          > >
                          > > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in
                          all
                          > > the universes.
                          > >
                          > > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with
                          each
                          > > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                          > > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with
                          you."
                          > >
                          > > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                          > > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
                          > >
                          > > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar),
                          thus
                          > > making it the main focus for eckists.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                          > > and then we could examine each.
                          > >
                          > > Regards
                          > > Liska
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > mishmisha9@wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                          > > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                          > > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                          > > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                          > > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                          > > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                          > > > point that out.
                          > > >
                          > > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                          > > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                          > > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                          > > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                          > > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                          > > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                          > > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                          > > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                          > > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                          > > >
                          > > > Mish
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > drubezarne@wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another
                          of
                          > the 3
                          > > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                          > > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
                          > rid of
                          > > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked
                          by the
                          > > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years
                          before
                          > > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of
                          Eck
                          > > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't
                          ready
                          > for it
                          > > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's
                          how he
                          > > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
                          > to the
                          > > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is
                          higher up on
                          > > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
                          > say that
                          > > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today
                          holds a
                          > > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only
                          declares
                          > > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta
                          mantle,
                          > but he
                          > > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
                          > master.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to
                          Darwin
                          > > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot
                          while
                          > > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how
                          he was
                          > > > > just another delusional eckist.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once
                          all the
                          > > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a
                          great
                          > > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Regards
                          > > > > Liska
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hi Liska,
                          > > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                          > > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                          > > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                          > > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                          > > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                          > > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                          > > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                          > > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                          > > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                          > > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                          > > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                          > > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                          > > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                          > > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                          > > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                          > > > > > on his behalf.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                          > > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                          > > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                          > > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                          > > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                          > > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                          > > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                          > > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                          > > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                          > > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                          > > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                          > > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                          > > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                          > > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                          > > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                          > > > > > Darwin Gross.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                          > > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                          > > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Prometheus
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Liska wrote:
                          > > > > > Prometheus,
                          > > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                          > > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                          > > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                          > > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                          > > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                          > > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                          > > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                          > > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                          > > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                          > > > > > Master.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                          > > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                          > > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                          > > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                          > > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                          > > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                          > > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                          > > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                          > > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                          > > > > > Third Series, p 76).
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                          > > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                          > > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                          > > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                          > > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                          > > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                          > > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                          > > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                          > > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                          > > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                          > > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                          > > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                          > > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                          > > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                          > > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                          > > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                          > > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                          > > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                          > > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                          > > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                          > > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                          > > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                          > > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                          > > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                          > > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                          > > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                          > > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                          > > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Regards
                          > > > > > Liska
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > prometheus wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                          > > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                          > > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                          > > > > > > get together with family and friends
                          > > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                          > > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                          > > > > >
                          > >
                          >
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