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Klemp Has Never Mentioned Darwin's Death!

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  • prometheus_973
    It s not really all that surprising that someone as nasty as Klemp can t forgive Darwin! However, one would think that HK would act the part as if he was a
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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      It's not really all that surprising that
      someone as nasty as Klemp can't forgive
      Darwin! However, one would think that
      HK would act the part "as if" he was
      a compassionate and loving Master.
      But, this wasn't so! However, this goes
      to show (as proof) that Klemp is a
      narcissist because they can never
      apologize or forgive.

      Instead, Klemp mentioned Paul Newman's
      death and made some "telling" remarks
      once again!

      With Klemp one has to read between the
      lines and look at what he didn't say or
      could have/should have said. His talks
      and writings are way too simple with no
      spiritual meat and leave a lot of room for
      ECKists to fill-in the blanks, second guess,
      and to imagine anything they want.
      This is how HK can be all things for all
      people. Jim Jones used a similar technique.


      HK: "Paul Newman, who recently died, didn't
      care how he aged. And the proceeds from the
      sale of his salad dressing line went to charity."


      Hmmmm... Newman "didn't care how he aged."
      I wonder if Klemp isn't looking at himself and
      his own aging process! Maybe he read what we
      said about that photo of his wrinkled old "Gaze"
      that he's selling!

      Of course, Klemp understated Newman's
      product line since almost all of us know that
      it's more than just a "salad dressing line!"
      And, the "charity" that the money goes to is
      The Hole In The Wall Gang. Why not mention
      the charity by name since HK mentioned Paul
      Newman by name? Does Klemp support any
      charity? Maybe Klemp didn't want to endorse
      this charity because it could divert money away
      from ECKankar and his income (charity).

      Okay, let's get back to Darwin Gross the 972nd
      LEM/Mahanta who died in March 2008. Did any
      long-time (30 year plus) ECKists ever care for
      Darwin? I really liked him! He gave me a couple
      or so initiations and I know that DG gave others
      a bunch of initiations, and some even skipped
      initiations. Klemp, later, made some of these same
      people RESAs. So, it doesn't seem like skipping
      initiations or having a 4th for a few months before
      getting the 5th was any big deal after all.

      And, didn't Darwin give Klemp get some Higher
      Initiations rather fast? Sure he did! Klemp got
      his 8th in June of 1980 and his 9th in June of
      1981 and his 12th in Oct. of 1981! That means
      that Darwin gave Klemp the 10th, and 11th
      Initiations between June and October of 1981!

      And now, after Darwin had done so much for
      Klemp and Company, via the Initiation process
      as their LEM/Mahanta and Inner Master, there
      is nothing said of his passing/translation! What's
      wrong with this picture? If it wasn't for Darwin
      Klemp wouldn't be the LEM, and ECKists wouldn't
      be giving Harry all of those accolades and Klemp
      wouldn't be having his crappy books printed!

      Klemp owes Darwin everything... all that he is
      and has! And still, there is nothing said. Klemp
      is truly a mean spirited and nasty little man.
      This is proof beyond reproach that Klemp is
      Not a Master and that he is Not even beyond
      the Astral Plane of Consciousness! This is not
      how a "Master" behaves!

      Prometheus



      Liska wrote:
      Eckists basically live in a spiritual vacuum.
      When they allow their Master Harold Klemp
      to be their sole fountain of knowledge along
      with Paul Twitchell's writings, they are basically
      living in a void. In the absence of comparison,
      how can they see that they have been lied to?

      Many of us who managed to break away
      from this insular existence called Eckankar
      have gained a more expansive viewpoint
      of life. We're finally able to see through the
      lies spread by those 3 charlatans (Twitchell,
      Gross, and Klemp) calling themselves Masters.

      We're not afraid to read works by other authors
      who have a different viewpoint than Eckankar's
      dogma. In the process, we've found works by
      authors who have more honest and profound
      views of life than the ones championed by the
      three Eckankar impostors. Living outside a spiritual
      vacuum makes one realize how shallow and
      dishonest Klemp's words are. Check it out for
      yourself. Here's a writer who makes Klemp's
      philosophy sound like that of a halfwit.

      The writer's name is Henry T. Laurency. You
      can download his books for
      free in .pdf format here...

      http://www.laurency.com/

      Regards
      Liska
    • prometheus_973
      Here Klemp talks about his EMR problems (etc) as he continues to use his scare tacticts on ECKists to keep them away from the Internet. Please comment on the
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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        Here Klemp talks about his EMR problems
        (etc) as he continues to use his scare
        tacticts on ECKists to keep them away
        from the Internet.

        Please comment on the following:

        HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
        chair with my radio and books nearby.
        I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
        for information.

        This is because my sensitivity to electromagnetic
        frequencies makes it impossible for me
        to use a computer."

        Klemp also mentioned that "those who
        go online are often overwhelmed by
        information."

        And, "many ECKists send things for me
        to try out and some work while others
        don't, but I've built up my stamina.
        Things were rough for a few years but
        are smoothing out now.

        It seems when doctors see new symptoms
        they get frightened, but things keep
        changing and you just have to learn to
        adapt." [end]

        Prometheus



        Prometheus wrote:
        Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
        We are simply here when people are
        ready for the teachings."

        Now why then is so much time, money,
        and service is focused upon if this statement
        was true? Why is there a spiritual year
        called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
        this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
        and have so much focus "geared" to the
        publicity and promotion of ECKankar
        VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
        the Consciousness of long-time current
        (paying) members by handing out more
        and Higher Initiations if that statement
        was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

        FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
        it always happens when he opens his mouth
        and words come out. And I've noticed that
        HK's crooked little smile will either come before
        or after the lies.

        Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
        as he did last year, that "all of the names
        I use for the characters in my stories are
        fictitious. I use a book of names written for
        writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
        names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
        names."

        Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
        But, since he brought up the topic of novels
        and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
        fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
        a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
        has taken him since he's the one who pointed
        it out.

        Of course EKies will see this differently
        and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
        Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
        and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
        due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
        Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

        HK also stated that, "I like to be around
        other people [really?] and the ECK touches
        them in some way but I don't try to control
        It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
        ECKists!

        But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
        and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
        be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
        The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
        as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
        stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
        he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
        Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
        poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
        important even though they are of the Mental
        (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
        aura when around others. His aura will just
        dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
        of those he meets at the grocery store and
        other public places!

        And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
        is not only using fictitious names, because
        he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
        the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
        BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

        Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
        who write "Novels" (fiction).

        I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
        and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
        right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
        I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
        subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
        why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
        afterwards.

        After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
        that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
        to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
        because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
        (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
        contemplate and regain my balance and my
        independence as Soul. However, there is a
        greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
        they call ECKankar.

        More excerpts later--

        Prometheus


        Prometheus wrote:
        It seems that Klemp is always
        thinking he needs to remind ECKists
        of their basic beliefs! It does make
        for a simplified talk that requires
        minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
        getting tired of Klemp talking down
        to them? What happened to Higher
        Consciousness? Has it come down
        to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

        The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
        that Physical Experience and the
        burning off of Karma results in the
        (eventual) purification of Soul.

        However, Initiation helps to speedup
        this burn-off process. Thus, being
        "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
        supposedly, key in speeding up this
        process of more rapidly burning off
        of Karma with "inner" experiences
        and via the "Master" taking on some
        of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
        Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
        leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
        of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

        I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
        (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
        Temple, but it has the potential due
        to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
        games being played. Let's face it--the
        disenfranchised are attracted to religions
        like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
        can become the Living God!

        Prometheus

        Liska wrote:
        HK's outer directed focus continues.
        Note how his attention is placed
        on the Kal again. We could ask
        ourselves, why does someone who
        claims to be God Realized and the
        incarnation of God on earth and in
        all the universes spend so much time
        talking about the devil? Does he even
        have a clue what people living under
        different governments are supposed
        to learn? It's easy to come up with
        platitudes, but why not offer some
        reasons for why something is what
        it is? Purification is a stock phrase
        that can be used in conjunction with
        anything.

        Liska

        Prometheus wrote:

        ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

        HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
        gears just as various groups of people do.
        These things, like the economic crisis and
        wars, don't just happen. They are caused
        by people acting as Unconscious Agents
        of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
        a process of purification involved with shifting
        gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
        or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
        there, are there because the people of that
        country have things to learn."
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, I thought that I d give my insights and comment more on Klemp s talk. *** HK: I work at home and sit in a rocking chair with my radio and books
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 19, 2008
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          Hello All,
          I thought that I'd give my insights
          and comment more on Klemp's talk.

          ***

          HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
          chair with my radio and books nearby.
          I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
          for information."

          *ME: Yes, Harold has a job where he
          "works" at home. Actually, Klemp's
          been retired for a number of years.
          Writing books is more like a hobby
          for him. ECKists should kick Klemp
          to the curb. This is the 21st Century
          and Master Klemp is sitting in a rocking
          chair listening to talk shows like Paul
          Harvey and Rush while reading the
          dictionary! I'm sure the Boring EK Master
          does do this at times... when he's not
          on the Internet or yelling at Joan to
          be quiet and stop talking!

          HK: "This is because my sensitivity to
          electromagnetic frequencies makes
          it impossible for me to use a computer."

          *ME: What a load of Bullshit! They don't
          even make CRT's anymore do they?
          Klemp is taking a two prong approach.
          One prong is to keep ECKists away from
          the Internet and the other is to have an
          excuse for his illnesses while, also, making
          it seem that he doesn't use a computer
          to do research or to read this site.

          HK: "...those who go online are often
          overwhelmed by information."

          *ME: That sounds like a person who
          goes online to do research! LOL! Klemp
          reminds me of Dubya or Palin at times.
          He just can't help what comes out of
          his mouth. Not all of his chelas are
          mindless, brain-washed and stupid.
          There are some chelas that now realize
          they've been duped and short-changed!

          HK: "... many ECKists send things
          for me to try out and some work
          while others don't, but I've built up
          my stamina. Things were rough for
          a few years but are smoothing out now."

          *ME: Wait a minute! Why wouldn't the
          Mahanta Consciousness "KNOW" what
          would work and what wouldn't? And,
          why would the Mahanta need others
          who are of what level of consciousness
          (the 7th or lower) to send remedies to
          the 14th Plane "Full" Mahanta! That doesn't
          make sense does it? That's because Klemp
          isn't who and what he claims to be! It's
          obvious! Look at what Klemp said!!!
          Anyone who is of the Highest Consciousness
          of all Planes and all universes would "KNOW."
          This is like sending GOD a remedy because
          HE gets sick and needs "our" help in knowing
          what to do to get better! LOL! Is this thinking
          stupid or what?

          HK: "It seems when doctors see new
          symptoms they get frightened, but things
          keep changing and you just have to learn
          to adapt." [end]

          *ME: No! That's not how it works and
          anyone with some common sense knows
          this! Doctors don't get "frightened" when
          they see a patient with "new symptoms"
          unless the doctor is a quack!

          The patient is the one who might be
          alarmed or "frightened" not the doctor!

          I'm thinking that Klemp wouldn't have
          said this unless he's the one that had
          been "frightened" by a new symptom
          that he reported to the doctor. And that
          the doctor needed to "change" Klemp's
          medication.

          Of course, Klemp should have stopped
          using the medication when he noticed
          "new symptoms" or what might have been
          side effects of the medication. People just
          have to weigh whether or not the side effects
          of medication are all that bad when considering
          living with the effects of their disease.

          In any case, upon closer analysis of what
          Klemp has said, it is clear that Klemp is
          a fraud and should have stepped down
          15 years ago! Unfortunately, it looks like
          he's staying for 10 more years for a total
          of 3 Twelve Year Cycles, or until his death!
          Klemp, it would seem, wants to take ECKankar
          to the grave with him! What a narcissist!

          Prometheus



          Prometheus wrote:
          Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
          We are simply here when people are
          ready for the teachings."

          Now why then is so much time, money,
          and service is focused upon if this statement
          was true? Why is there a spiritual year
          called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
          this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
          and have so much focus "geared" to the
          publicity and promotion of ECKankar
          VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
          the Consciousness of long-time current
          (paying) members by handing out more
          and Higher Initiations if that statement
          was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

          FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
          it always happens when he opens his mouth
          and words come out. And I've noticed that
          HK's crooked little smile will either come before
          or after the lies.

          Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
          as he did last year, that "all of the names
          I use for the characters in my stories are
          fictitious. I use a book of names written for
          writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
          names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
          names."

          Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
          But, since he brought up the topic of novels
          and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
          fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
          a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
          has taken him since he's the one who pointed
          it out.

          Of course EKies will see this differently
          and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
          Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
          and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
          due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
          Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

          HK also stated that, "I like to be around
          other people [really?] and the ECK touches
          them in some way but I don't try to control
          It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
          ECKists!

          But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
          and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
          be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
          The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
          as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
          stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
          he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
          Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
          poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
          important even though they are of the Mental
          (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
          aura when around others. His aura will just
          dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
          of those he meets at the grocery store and
          other public places!

          And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
          is not only using fictitious names, because
          he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
          the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
          BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

          Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
          who write "Novels" (fiction).

          I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
          and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
          right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
          I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
          subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
          why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
          afterwards.

          After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
          that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
          to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
          because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
          (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
          contemplate and regain my balance and my
          independence as Soul. However, there is a
          greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
          they call ECKankar.

          More excerpts later--

          Prometheus


          Prometheus wrote:
          It seems that Klemp is always
          thinking he needs to remind ECKists
          of their basic beliefs! It does make
          for a simplified talk that requires
          minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
          getting tired of Klemp talking down
          to them? What happened to Higher
          Consciousness? Has it come down
          to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

          The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
          that Physical Experience and the
          burning off of Karma results in the
          (eventual) purification of Soul.

          However, Initiation helps to speedup
          this burn-off process. Thus, being
          "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
          supposedly, key in speeding up this
          process of more rapidly burning off
          of Karma with "inner" experiences
          and via the "Master" taking on some
          of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
          Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
          leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
          of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

          I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
          (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
          Temple, but it has the potential due
          to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
          games being played. Let's face it--the
          disenfranchised are attracted to religions
          like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
          can become the Living God!

          Prometheus

          Liska wrote:
          HK's outer directed focus continues.
          Note how his attention is placed
          on the Kal again. We could ask
          ourselves, why does someone who
          claims to be God Realized and the
          incarnation of God on earth and in
          all the universes spend so much time
          talking about the devil? Does he even
          have a clue what people living under
          different governments are supposed
          to learn? It's easy to come up with
          platitudes, but why not offer some
          reasons for why something is what
          it is? Purification is a stock phrase
          that can be used in conjunction with
          anything.

          Liska

          Prometheus wrote:

          ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

          HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
          gears just as various groups of people do.
          These things, like the economic crisis and
          wars, don't just happen. They are caused
          by people acting as Unconscious Agents
          of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
          a process of purification involved with shifting
          gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
          or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
          there, are there because the people of that
          country have things to learn."
        • prometheus_973
          Klemp mentions Thanksgiving and that, I like it because there s no obligation to buy gifts... People get together with family and friends to have a good time
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 26, 2008
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            Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
            and that, "I like it because there's
            no obligation to buy gifts... People
            get together with family and friends
            to have a good time and it's a time
            to be grateful for our blessings."

            Maybe the Klemps will be driving
            over to the Appleton, Wisconsin
            area to have Thanksgiving with Harry's
            brother and other family members?
            Who knows maybe HK's sister might
            fly in from the west coast. I wonder
            if Harry would spend the money to
            fly his daughter and 3 grandkids in?

            This is a better holiday for Harry because
            he doesn't have to shop and buy gifts!
            I doubt if Harry and Joan see anyone
            during Christmas. They might even
            take a cruise, or stay at Peter's house
            in the Tampa area.

            However, Klemp's comments only
            state the obvious. Yes, it is a time
            that many people in the U.S. to get
            together with family and friends in
            order to show gratitude and to give
            thanks for what they have. However,
            people should give thanks everyday.

            MORE PROOF that Klemp is Not
            an ECK Master:

            I'm still disappointed with Klemp
            for not having mentioned Darwin's
            death and for not taking a moment
            to say something nice about him.

            Why mention Paul Newman's death
            in his 2008 EWWS talk and not Darwin
            Gross'?

            Darwin gave Klemp his highest initiations
            and handed him the LEM position in 1981!

            This is just more proof that Klemp is
            mean-spirited and lacks compassion
            and love. Klemp's inaction and omission
            of mentioning Darwin shows that he is
            still holding a grudge (anger and hatred)
            and this is proof that HK cannot be an
            ECK Master and Mahanta! ECK Masters
            are supposed to be above the fray, but
            Klemp has proven that he is not! This
            was a sin of omission by a narcissist,
            and a KAL agent!

            Klemp fell from Grace years ago and
            has a death grip on his position of
            power and prestige. This is attachment!

            Many ECKists can see this, but are
            fearful to say anything. Besides, who
            can they complain to? Everyone knows
            that people are blacklisted on initiations
            and positions if they complain or say
            too much. And, the EK Board is powerless
            to do anything because of the way in
            which Klemp restructured the org. after
            he kicked Darwin to the curb. The Mahanta
            now has sole authority over the president
            (and LEM) whereas before (with Darwin)
            this was not the case. This is also why
            Klemp was trying to make it seem that
            Darwin was Not a Mahanta.

            How could/would a 12th depose a FULL
            14th Mahanta! He can't according to EK
            Dogma and, thereby, by law (in case there
            was an appeal). Thus, HK had to make two
            claims about Darwin: 1.) Darwin was never
            a 14th FULL Mahanta 2.) Darwin fell from
            Grace and was kicked out of the Vairagi Order,
            but only HK (a living 12th) would know this!

            Yet, 8th initiate Tom Flamma stated (in his
            book) that Darwin was the Mahanta and HK
            gave validity to Flamma for his prophecy of
            the next LEM told to a group of men.

            BTW- Did Klemp ever write or say (early
            on) that Darwin was the Mahanta?

            Prometheus

            Prometheus wrote:
            I thought that I'd give my insights
            and comment more on Klemp's talk.

            ***

            HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
            chair with my radio and books nearby.
            I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
            for information."

            *ME: Yes, Harold has a job where he
            "works" at home. Actually, Klemp's
            been retired for a number of years.
            Writing books is more like a hobby
            for him. ECKists should kick Klemp
            to the curb. This is the 21st Century
            and Master Klemp is sitting in a rocking
            chair listening to talk shows like Paul
            Harvey and Rush while reading the
            dictionary! I'm sure the Boring EK Master
            does do this at times... when he's not
            on the Internet or yelling at Joan to
            be quiet and stop talking!

            HK: "This is because my sensitivity to
            electromagnetic frequencies makes
            it impossible for me to use a computer."

            *ME: What a load of Bullshit! They don't
            even make CRT's anymore do they?
            Klemp is taking a two prong approach.
            One prong is to keep ECKists away from
            the Internet and the other is to have an
            excuse for his illnesses while, also, making
            it seem that he doesn't use a computer
            to do research or to read this site.

            HK: "...those who go online are often
            overwhelmed by information."

            *ME: That sounds like a person who
            goes online to do research! LOL! Klemp
            reminds me of Dubya or Palin at times.
            He just can't help what comes out of
            his mouth. Not all of his chelas are
            mindless, brain-washed and stupid.
            There are some chelas that now realize
            they've been duped and short-changed!

            HK: "... many ECKists send things
            for me to try out and some work
            while others don't, but I've built up
            my stamina. Things were rough for
            a few years but are smoothing out now."

            *ME: Wait a minute! Why wouldn't the
            Mahanta Consciousness "KNOW" what
            would work and what wouldn't? And,
            why would the Mahanta need others
            who are of what level of consciousness
            (the 7th or lower) to send remedies to
            the 14th Plane "Full" Mahanta! That doesn't
            make sense does it? That's because Klemp
            isn't who and what he claims to be! It's
            obvious! Look at what Klemp said!!!
            Anyone who is of the Highest Consciousness
            of all Planes and all universes would "KNOW."
            This is like sending GOD a remedy because
            HE gets sick and needs "our" help in knowing
            what to do to get better! LOL! Is this thinking
            stupid or what?

            HK: "It seems when doctors see new
            symptoms they get frightened, but things
            keep changing and you just have to learn
            to adapt." [end]

            *ME: No! That's not how it works and
            anyone with some common sense knows
            this! Doctors don't get "frightened" when
            they see a patient with "new symptoms"
            unless the doctor is a quack!

            The patient is the one who might be
            alarmed or "frightened" not the doctor!

            I'm thinking that Klemp wouldn't have
            said this unless he's the one that had
            been "frightened" by a new symptom
            that he reported to the doctor. And that
            the doctor needed to "change" Klemp's
            medication.

            Of course, Klemp should have stopped
            using the medication when he noticed
            "new symptoms" or what might have been
            side effects of the medication. People just
            have to weigh whether or not the side effects
            of medication are all that bad when considering
            living with the effects of their disease.

            In any case, upon closer analysis of what
            Klemp has said, it is clear that Klemp is
            a fraud and should have stepped down
            15 years ago! Unfortunately, it looks like
            he's staying for 10 more years for a total
            of 3 Twelve Year Cycles, or until his death!
            Klemp, it would seem, wants to take ECKankar
            to the grave with him! What a narcissist!

            Prometheus



            Prometheus wrote:
            Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
            We are simply here when people are
            ready for the teachings."

            Now why then is so much time, money,
            and service is focused upon if this statement
            was true? Why is there a spiritual year
            called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
            this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
            and have so much focus "geared" to the
            publicity and promotion of ECKankar
            VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
            the Consciousness of long-time current
            (paying) members by handing out more
            and Higher Initiations if that statement
            was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

            FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
            it always happens when he opens his mouth
            and words come out. And I've noticed that
            HK's crooked little smile will either come before
            or after the lies.

            Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
            as he did last year, that "all of the names
            I use for the characters in my stories are
            fictitious. I use a book of names written for
            writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
            names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
            names."

            Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
            But, since he brought up the topic of novels
            and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
            fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
            a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
            has taken him since he's the one who pointed
            it out.

            Of course EKies will see this differently
            and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
            Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
            and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
            due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
            Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

            HK also stated that, "I like to be around
            other people [really?] and the ECK touches
            them in some way but I don't try to control
            It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
            ECKists!

            But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
            and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
            be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
            The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
            as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
            stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
            he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
            Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
            poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
            important even though they are of the Mental
            (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
            aura when around others. His aura will just
            dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
            of those he meets at the grocery store and
            other public places!

            And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
            is not only using fictitious names, because
            he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
            the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
            BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

            Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
            who write "Novels" (fiction).

            I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
            and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
            right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
            I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
            subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
            why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
            afterwards.

            After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
            that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
            to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
            because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
            (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
            contemplate and regain my balance and my
            independence as Soul. However, there is a
            greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
            they call ECKankar.

            More excerpts later--

            Prometheus


            Prometheus wrote:
            It seems that Klemp is always
            thinking he needs to remind ECKists
            of their basic beliefs! It does make
            for a simplified talk that requires
            minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
            getting tired of Klemp talking down
            to them? What happened to Higher
            Consciousness? Has it come down
            to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

            The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
            that Physical Experience and the
            burning off of Karma results in the
            (eventual) purification of Soul.

            However, Initiation helps to speedup
            this burn-off process. Thus, being
            "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
            supposedly, key in speeding up this
            process of more rapidly burning off
            of Karma with "inner" experiences
            and via the "Master" taking on some
            of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
            Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
            leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
            of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

            I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
            (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
            Temple, but it has the potential due
            to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
            games being played. Let's face it--the
            disenfranchised are attracted to religions
            like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
            can become the Living God!

            Prometheus

            Liska wrote:
            HK's outer directed focus continues.
            Note how his attention is placed
            on the Kal again. We could ask
            ourselves, why does someone who
            claims to be God Realized and the
            incarnation of God on earth and in
            all the universes spend so much time
            talking about the devil? Does he even
            have a clue what people living under
            different governments are supposed
            to learn? It's easy to come up with
            platitudes, but why not offer some
            reasons for why something is what
            it is? Purification is a stock phrase
            that can be used in conjunction with
            anything.

            Liska

            Prometheus wrote:

            ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

            HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
            gears just as various groups of people do.
            These things, like the economic crisis and
            wars, don't just happen. They are caused
            by people acting as Unconscious Agents
            of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
            a process of purification involved with shifting
            gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
            or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
            there, are there because the people of that
            country have things to learn."
          • drubezarne
            Prometheus, These excerpts from the Eckankar World Wide present the benign public face of Harold Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman who is the leader of a
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 27, 2008
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              Prometheus,

              These excerpts from the Eckankar World Wide present the benign public
              face of Harold Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman who is the
              leader of a religion called Eckankar. To the unaware public, his
              statements seem harmless and introduce them to a teaching that seems
              good-natured and tenderhearted. To the brainwashed eckist, Harold
              Klemp shows himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle Master.

              Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility and view the real face
              of Eckankar and its leader Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
              from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from a discourse series that
              only higher initiates receive after many years of indoctrination.

              "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold) can bring the
              advanced Soul to these heights, for none has the power but him." (
              Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses, Third Series, p 76).

              "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon anyone who …deserts the
              Master….Not once will he see the connection between his betrayal …and
              the horrendous troubles that strike him down like a plague on every
              hand.  And thus he goes downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
              despair….  " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses, Third Series,
              Letter 8).

              "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their old karma once more.
              More, the karma of all those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
              their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store for them." (Mystic
              World, Ask The Master by Harold Klemp, March 2004).

              "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp) conducts his affairs
              from this high state of awareness during all of a twenty-four hour
              day." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)

              "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp) is the embodiment
              of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK, and therefore represents the entire
              ocean of love and compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
              who operates under the strictures of the human level of perception."
              (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 20).

              Prometheus, if you can open up the files section, we could upload many
              more quotes like this that show the real face of Eckankar and its
              leaders. Let's make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
              of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics of Eckankar's
              Master who warns against revealing the secrets of the Satsang discourses.

              Regards
              Liska

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
              > and that, "I like it because there's
              > no obligation to buy gifts... People
              > get together with family and friends
              > to have a good time and it's a time
              > to be grateful for our blessings."
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Liska, Klemp isn t too tenderhearted or compassionate when it comes to Darwin! Not mentioning DG s death was unforgiving. It s incredible that long-time
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 27, 2008
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                Hi Liska,
                Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.

                It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                every detail of existence or about everyone
                and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!

                However, we can all see the proof that
                Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!

                No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                Mahanta and that his death should have been
                mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                on his behalf.

                Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                Years than in Klemp's 27!

                It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                for Klemp to have said something nice about
                Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                Darwin Gross.


                BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                setting up some files for various subjects
                like "ECKankar Threats."


                Prometheus

                Liska wrote:
                Prometheus,
                These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                To the unaware public, his statements seem
                harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                Master.

                Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                a discourse series that only higher initiates
                receive after many years of indoctrination.

                "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                heights, for none has the power but him."
                (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                Third Series, p 76).

                "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).

                "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                Harold Klemp, March 2004).

                "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)

                "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                who operates under the strictures of the human level
                of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                Fourth Series, Page 20).

                Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                we could upload many more quotes like this that
                show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                secrets of the Satsang discourses.

                Regards
                Liska

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                > and that, "I like it because there's
                > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                > get together with family and friends
                > to have a good time and it's a time
                > to be grateful for our blessings."
              • drubezarne
                Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3 Eckankar frauds. He doesn t deserve any compassion. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 28, 2008
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                  Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                  Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                  riddance to bad rubbish.

                  Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                  Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                  Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                  he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                  Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                  yet and so decided to wait 10 years.

                  Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                  did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                  ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                  the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                  this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                  higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.

                  It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                  himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                  also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.

                  There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                  as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                  declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                  just another delusional eckist.

                  I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                  "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                  help to anyone curious about Eckankar.

                  Regards
                  Liska

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Liska,
                  > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                  > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                  > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                  >
                  > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                  > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                  > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                  > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                  > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                  > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                  > every detail of existence or about everyone
                  > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                  >
                  > However, we can all see the proof that
                  > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                  > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                  >
                  > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                  > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                  > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                  > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                  > on his behalf.
                  >
                  > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                  > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                  > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                  > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                  > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                  > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                  > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                  > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                  > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                  > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                  >
                  > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                  > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                  > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                  > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                  > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                  > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                  > Darwin Gross.
                  >
                  >
                  > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                  > setting up some files for various subjects
                  > like "ECKankar Threats."
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > Liska wrote:
                  > Prometheus,
                  > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                  > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                  > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                  > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                  > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                  > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                  > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                  > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                  > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                  > Master.
                  >
                  > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                  > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                  > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                  > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                  > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                  > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                  >
                  > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                  > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                  > heights, for none has the power but him."
                  > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                  > Third Series, p 76).
                  >
                  > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                  > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                  > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                  > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                  > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                  > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                  > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                  > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                  >
                  > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                  > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                  > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                  > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                  > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                  > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                  >
                  > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                  > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                  > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                  > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                  >
                  > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                  > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                  > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                  > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                  > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                  > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                  > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                  >
                  > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                  > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                  > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                  > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                  > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                  > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                  > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > Liska
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                  > > and that, "I like it because there's
                  > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                  > > get together with family and friends
                  > > to have a good time and it's a time
                  > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                  >
                • mishmisha9
                  Liska, you re right who should care about Darwin Gross, really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta is treated so callously by the present
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 29, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                    really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                    is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                    since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                    that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                    example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                    point that out.

                    I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                    hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                    mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                    narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                    with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                    were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                    how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                    counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                    Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?

                    Mish

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne" <drubezarne@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                    > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                    > riddance to bad rubbish.
                    >
                    > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                    > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                    > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                    > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                    > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                    > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                    >
                    > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                    > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                    > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                    > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                    > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                    > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                    >
                    > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                    > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                    > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                    >
                    > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                    > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                    > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                    > just another delusional eckist.
                    >
                    > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                    > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                    > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > Liska
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Liska,
                    > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                    > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                    > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                    > >
                    > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                    > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                    > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                    > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                    > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                    > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                    > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                    > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                    > >
                    > > However, we can all see the proof that
                    > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                    > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                    > >
                    > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                    > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                    > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                    > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                    > > on his behalf.
                    > >
                    > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                    > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                    > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                    > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                    > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                    > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                    > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                    > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                    > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                    > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                    > >
                    > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                    > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                    > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                    > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                    > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                    > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                    > > Darwin Gross.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                    > > setting up some files for various subjects
                    > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > Liska wrote:
                    > > Prometheus,
                    > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                    > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                    > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                    > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                    > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                    > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                    > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                    > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                    > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                    > > Master.
                    > >
                    > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                    > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                    > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                    > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                    > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                    > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                    > >
                    > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                    > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                    > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                    > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                    > > Third Series, p 76).
                    > >
                    > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                    > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                    > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                    > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                    > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                    > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                    > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                    > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                    > >
                    > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                    > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                    > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                    > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                    > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                    > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                    > >
                    > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                    > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                    > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                    > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                    > >
                    > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                    > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                    > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                    > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                    > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                    > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                    > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                    > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                    > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                    > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                    > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                    > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                    > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                    > >
                    > > Regards
                    > > Liska
                    > >
                    > > prometheus wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                    > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                    > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                    > > > get together with family and friends
                    > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                    > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                    > >
                    >
                  • drubezarne
                    Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I m wondering if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its pseudo-master Harold
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                      if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                      pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                      something and missing the bigger picture.

                      Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                      signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                      giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                      would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                      followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                      anybody who has the courage to leave him.

                      I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                      said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                      this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                      other spiritual/religious principles.

                      For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                      you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                      record, then you could help out here.

                      Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...

                      1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                      the universes.

                      2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                      of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                      times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."

                      3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                      numerously the "Awakened Dream".

                      4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                      making it the main focus for eckists.

                      Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                      and then we could examine each.

                      Regards
                      Liska

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                      <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                      > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                      > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                      > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                      > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                      > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                      > point that out.
                      >
                      > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                      > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                      > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                      > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                      > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                      > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                      > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                      > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                      > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                      >
                      > Mish
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
                      <drubezarne@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                      > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                      > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                      > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                      > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                      > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                      > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                      > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                      > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                      > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                      > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                      > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                      > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                      > >
                      > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                      > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                      > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                      > >
                      > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                      > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                      > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                      > > just another delusional eckist.
                      > >
                      > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                      > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                      > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > > Liska
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Liska,
                      > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                      > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                      > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                      > > >
                      > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                      > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                      > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                      > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                      > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                      > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                      > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                      > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                      > > >
                      > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                      > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                      > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                      > > >
                      > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                      > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                      > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                      > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                      > > > on his behalf.
                      > > >
                      > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                      > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                      > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                      > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                      > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                      > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                      > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                      > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                      > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                      > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                      > > >
                      > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                      > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                      > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                      > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                      > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                      > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                      > > > Darwin Gross.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                      > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                      > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > > Liska wrote:
                      > > > Prometheus,
                      > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                      > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                      > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                      > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                      > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                      > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                      > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                      > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                      > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                      > > > Master.
                      > > >
                      > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                      > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                      > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                      > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                      > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                      > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                      > > >
                      > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                      > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                      > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                      > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                      > > > Third Series, p 76).
                      > > >
                      > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                      > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                      > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                      > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                      > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                      > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                      > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                      > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                      > > >
                      > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                      > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                      > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                      > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                      > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                      > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                      > > >
                      > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                      > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                      > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                      > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                      > > >
                      > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                      > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                      > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                      > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                      > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                      > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                      > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                      > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                      > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                      > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                      > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                      > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                      > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards
                      > > > Liska
                      > > >
                      > > > prometheus wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                      > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                      > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                      > > > > get together with family and friends
                      > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                      > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Liska and All, I can t speak for Mish, but with Klemp the devil is in the details. Therefore, I don t see that there has been too much focus on trivial
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Liska and All,
                        I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                        the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                        I don't see that there has been too much
                        focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                        The little pictures tend to complete the
                        big picture. I don't see anything trivial.

                        For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                        at and piecing together the missing parts
                        to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                        the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                        pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                        why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.

                        However, if you want to focus more on the
                        "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                        thinking that the focus here has been on both
                        the big and the small pictures.

                        But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                        a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                        and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                        show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                        delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                        character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                        early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                        divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                        bigger picture?

                        For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                        Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                        ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                        or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                        Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                        met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                        transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                        One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                        as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                        of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).

                        The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                        when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                        that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                        2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                        "common language" for AUM.

                        When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                        of the Light and Sound of God?

                        Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"

                        When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                        spin?

                        When was the RESA org. first created?

                        When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                        and Why?

                        When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                        the Mahanta?"

                        When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"

                        BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                        as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                        the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                        the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                        thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                        "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                        Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                        intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]

                        And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                        and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                        die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                        him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                        Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                        is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                        that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                        for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!

                        Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                        and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                        to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.

                        Prometheus


                        pjr_sr wrote:
                        Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                        if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                        pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                        something and missing the bigger picture.

                        Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                        signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                        giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                        would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                        followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                        anybody who has the courage to leave him.

                        I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                        said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                        this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                        other spiritual/religious principles.

                        For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                        you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                        record, then you could help out here.

                        Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...

                        1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                        the universes.

                        2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                        of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                        times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."

                        3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                        numerously the "Awakened Dream".

                        4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                        making it the main focus for eckists.

                        Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                        and then we could examine each.

                        Regards
                        Liska


                        mishmisha9@wrote:
                        >
                        > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                        > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                        > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                        > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                        > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                        > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                        > point that out.
                        >
                        > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                        > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                        > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                        > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                        > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                        > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                        > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                        > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                        > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                        >
                        > Mish
                        >

                        drubezarne@wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                        > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                        > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                        > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                        > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                        > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                        > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                        > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                        > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                        > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                        > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                        > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                        > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                        > >
                        > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                        > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                        > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                        > >
                        > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                        > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                        > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                        > > just another delusional eckist.
                        > >
                        > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                        > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                        > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                        > >
                        > > Regards
                        > > Liska
                        > >

                        > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Liska,
                        > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                        > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                        > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                        > > >
                        > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                        > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                        > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                        > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                        > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                        > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                        > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                        > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                        > > >
                        > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                        > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                        > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                        > > >
                        > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                        > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                        > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                        > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                        > > > on his behalf.
                        > > >
                        > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                        > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                        > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                        > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                        > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                        > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                        > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                        > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                        > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                        > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                        > > >
                        > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                        > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                        > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                        > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                        > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                        > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                        > > > Darwin Gross.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                        > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                        > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > > Liska wrote:
                        > > > Prometheus,
                        > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                        > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                        > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                        > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                        > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                        > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                        > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                        > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                        > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                        > > > Master.
                        > > >
                        > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                        > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                        > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                        > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                        > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                        > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                        > > >
                        > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                        > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                        > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                        > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                        > > > Third Series, p 76).
                        > > >
                        > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                        > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                        > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                        > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                        > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                        > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                        > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                        > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                        > > >
                        > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                        > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                        > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                        > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                        > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                        > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                        > > >
                        > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                        > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                        > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                        > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                        > > >
                        > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                        > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                        > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                        > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                        > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                        > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                        > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                        > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                        > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                        > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                        > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                        > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                        > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                        > > >
                        > > > Regards
                        > > > Liska
                        > > >
                        > > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                        > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                        > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                        > > > > get together with family and friends
                        > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                        > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                        > > >
                      • drubezarne
                        Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got rid of all my Eckankar
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
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                          Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
                          Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
                          rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation. All
                          I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as I
                          can and move on to better things.

                          So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
                          anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
                          leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of it
                          is old.

                          Regards
                          Liska

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Liska and All,
                          > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                          > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                          > I don't see that there has been too much
                          > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                          > The little pictures tend to complete the
                          > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
                          >
                          > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                          > at and piecing together the missing parts
                          > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                          > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                          > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                          > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
                          >
                          > However, if you want to focus more on the
                          > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                          > thinking that the focus here has been on both
                          > the big and the small pictures.
                          >
                          > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                          > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                          > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                          > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                          > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                          > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                          > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                          > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                          > bigger picture?
                          >
                          > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                          > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                          > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                          > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                          > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                          > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                          > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                          > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                          > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                          > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
                          >
                          > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                          > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                          > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                          > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                          > "common language" for AUM.
                          >
                          > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                          > of the Light and Sound of God?
                          >
                          > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
                          >
                          > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                          > spin?
                          >
                          > When was the RESA org. first created?
                          >
                          > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                          > and Why?
                          >
                          > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                          > the Mahanta?"
                          >
                          > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
                          >
                          > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                          > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                          > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                          > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                          > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                          > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                          > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                          > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
                          >
                          > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                          > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                          > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                          > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                          > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                          > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                          > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                          > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
                          >
                          > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                          > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                          > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > pjr_sr wrote:
                          > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                          > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                          > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                          > something and missing the bigger picture.
                          >
                          > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                          > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                          > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                          > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                          > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                          > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
                          >
                          > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                          > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                          > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                          > other spiritual/religious principles.
                          >
                          > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                          > you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                          > record, then you could help out here.
                          >
                          > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
                          >
                          > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                          > the universes.
                          >
                          > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                          > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                          > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."
                          >
                          > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                          > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
                          >
                          > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                          > making it the main focus for eckists.
                          >
                          > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                          > and then we could examine each.
                          >
                          > Regards
                          > Liska
                          >
                          >
                          > mishmisha9@wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                          > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                          > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                          > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                          > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                          > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                          > > point that out.
                          > >
                          > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                          > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                          > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                          > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                          > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                          > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                          > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                          > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                          > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                          > >
                          > > Mish
                          > >
                          >
                          > drubezarne@wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of
                          the 3
                          > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                          > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                          > > >
                          > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
                          rid of
                          > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                          > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                          > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                          > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready
                          for it
                          > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                          > > >
                          > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                          > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
                          to the
                          > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                          > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
                          say that
                          > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                          > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                          > > >
                          > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                          > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle,
                          but he
                          > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
                          master.
                          > > >
                          > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                          > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                          > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                          > > > just another delusional eckist.
                          > > >
                          > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                          > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                          > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                          > > >
                          > > > Regards
                          > > > Liska
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hi Liska,
                          > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                          > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                          > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                          > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                          > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                          > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                          > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                          > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                          > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                          > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                          > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                          > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                          > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                          > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                          > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                          > > > > on his behalf.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                          > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                          > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                          > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                          > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                          > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                          > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                          > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                          > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                          > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                          > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                          > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                          > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                          > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                          > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                          > > > > Darwin Gross.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                          > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                          > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Prometheus
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Liska wrote:
                          > > > > Prometheus,
                          > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                          > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                          > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                          > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                          > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                          > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                          > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                          > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                          > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                          > > > > Master.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                          > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                          > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                          > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                          > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                          > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                          > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                          > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                          > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                          > > > > Third Series, p 76).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                          > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                          > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                          > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                          > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                          > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                          > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                          > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                          > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                          > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                          > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                          > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                          > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                          > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                          > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                          > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                          > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                          > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                          > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                          > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                          > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                          > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                          > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                          > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                          > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                          > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                          > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                          > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Regards
                          > > > > Liska
                          > > > >
                          > > > > prometheus wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                          > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                          > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                          > > > > > get together with family and friends
                          > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                          > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                          > > > >
                          >
                        • D.R.D.
                          Responded to this thread earlier in the evening. Mentioned that I had not received Yahoo Groups messages in the past few days. They were bouncing. Apparently,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 1, 2008
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                            Responded to this thread earlier
                            in the evening. Mentioned that I had
                            not received Yahoo Groups messages in
                            the past few days. They were bouncing.

                            Apparently, that response bounced
                            too? Anyhow, I think my Yahoo e-mail
                            is normal (and working) now.

                            Etznab

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
                            <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
                            > Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
                            > rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation.
                            All
                            > I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as
                            I
                            > can and move on to better things.
                            >
                            > So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
                            > anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
                            > leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of
                            it
                            > is old.
                            >
                            > Regards
                            > Liska
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello Liska and All,
                            > > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                            > > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                            > > I don't see that there has been too much
                            > > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                            > > The little pictures tend to complete the
                            > > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
                            > >
                            > > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                            > > at and piecing together the missing parts
                            > > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                            > > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                            > > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                            > > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
                            > >
                            > > However, if you want to focus more on the
                            > > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                            > > thinking that the focus here has been on both
                            > > the big and the small pictures.
                            > >
                            > > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                            > > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                            > > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                            > > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                            > > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                            > > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                            > > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                            > > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                            > > bigger picture?
                            > >
                            > > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                            > > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                            > > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                            > > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                            > > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                            > > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                            > > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                            > > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                            > > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                            > > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
                            > >
                            > > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                            > > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                            > > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                            > > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                            > > "common language" for AUM.
                            > >
                            > > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                            > > of the Light and Sound of God?
                            > >
                            > > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
                            > >
                            > > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                            > > spin?
                            > >
                            > > When was the RESA org. first created?
                            > >
                            > > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                            > > and Why?
                            > >
                            > > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                            > > the Mahanta?"
                            > >
                            > > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
                            > >
                            > > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                            > > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                            > > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                            > > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                            > > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                            > > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                            > > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                            > > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
                            > >
                            > > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                            > > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                            > > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                            > > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                            > > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                            > > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                            > > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                            > > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
                            > >
                            > > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                            > > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                            > > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > pjr_sr wrote:
                            > > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm
                            wondering
                            > > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                            > > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely
                            at
                            > > something and missing the bigger picture.
                            > >
                            > > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would
                            see
                            > > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                            > > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                            > > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his
                            own
                            > > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                            > > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
                            > >
                            > > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp
                            has
                            > > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                            > > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                            > > other spiritual/religious principles.
                            > >
                            > > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab,
                            since
                            > > you said you are interested in researching and compiling
                            Eckankar's
                            > > record, then you could help out here.
                            > >
                            > > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
                            > >
                            > > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in
                            all
                            > > the universes.
                            > >
                            > > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with
                            each
                            > > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                            > > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with
                            you."
                            > >
                            > > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                            > > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
                            > >
                            > > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar),
                            thus
                            > > making it the main focus for eckists.
                            > >
                            > > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                            > > and then we could examine each.
                            > >
                            > > Regards
                            > > Liska
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > mishmisha9@wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                            > > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                            > > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                            > > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                            > > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                            > > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                            > > > point that out.
                            > > >
                            > > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                            > > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                            > > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                            > > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                            > > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                            > > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                            > > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                            > > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                            > > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                            > > >
                            > > > Mish
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > drubezarne@wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another
                            of
                            > the 3
                            > > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                            > > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
                            > rid of
                            > > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked
                            by the
                            > > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years
                            before
                            > > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of
                            Eck
                            > > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't
                            ready
                            > for it
                            > > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's
                            how he
                            > > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
                            > to the
                            > > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is
                            higher up on
                            > > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
                            > say that
                            > > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today
                            holds a
                            > > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only
                            declares
                            > > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta
                            mantle,
                            > but he
                            > > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
                            > master.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to
                            Darwin
                            > > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot
                            while
                            > > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how
                            he was
                            > > > > just another delusional eckist.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once
                            all the
                            > > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a
                            great
                            > > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Regards
                            > > > > Liska
                            > > > >
                            > >
                            > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hi Liska,
                            > > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                            > > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                            > > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                            > > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                            > > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                            > > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                            > > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                            > > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                            > > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                            > > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                            > > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                            > > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                            > > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                            > > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                            > > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                            > > > > > on his behalf.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                            > > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                            > > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                            > > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                            > > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                            > > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                            > > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                            > > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                            > > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                            > > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                            > > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                            > > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                            > > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                            > > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                            > > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                            > > > > > Darwin Gross.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                            > > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                            > > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Prometheus
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Liska wrote:
                            > > > > > Prometheus,
                            > > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                            > > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                            > > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                            > > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                            > > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                            > > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                            > > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                            > > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                            > > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                            > > > > > Master.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                            > > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                            > > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                            > > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                            > > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                            > > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                            > > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                            > > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                            > > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                            > > > > > Third Series, p 76).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                            > > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                            > > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                            > > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                            > > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                            > > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                            > > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                            > > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                            > > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                            > > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                            > > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                            > > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                            > > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                            > > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                            > > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                            > > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                            > > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                            > > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                            > > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                            > > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                            > > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                            > > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                            > > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                            > > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                            > > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                            > > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                            > > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                            > > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Regards
                            > > > > > Liska
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                            > > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                            > > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                            > > > > > > get together with family and friends
                            > > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                            > > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                            > > > > >
                            > >
                            >
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