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Re: Excerpts From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Liska and All, It seems that Klemp is always thinking he needs to remind ECKists of their basic beliefs! It does make for a simplified talk that requires
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 15, 2008
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      Hello Liska and All,
      It seems that Klemp is always
      thinking he needs to remind ECKists
      of their basic beliefs! It does make
      for a simplified talk that requires
      minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
      getting tired of Klemp talking down
      to them? What happened to Higher
      Consciousness? Has it come down
      to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

      The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
      that Physical Experience and the
      burning off of Karma results in the
      (eventual) purification of Soul.

      However, Initiation helps to speedup
      this burn-off process. Thus, being
      "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
      supposedly, key in speeding up this
      process of more rapidly burning off
      of Karma with "inner" experiences
      and via the "Master" taking on some
      of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
      Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
      leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
      of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

      I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
      (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
      Temple, but it has the potential due
      to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
      games being played. Let's face it--the
      disenfranchised are attracted to religions
      like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
      can become the Living God!

      Prometheus

      Liska wrote:
      HK's outer directed focus continues.
      Note how his attention is placed
      on the Kal again. We could ask
      ourselves, why does someone who
      claims to be God Realized and the
      incarnation of God on earth and in
      all the universes spend so much time
      talking about the devil? Does he even
      have a clue what people living under
      different governments are supposed
      to learn? It's easy to come up with
      platitudes, but why not offer some
      reasons for why something is what
      it is? Purification is a stock phrase
      that can be used in conjunction with
      anything.

      Liska

      Prometheus wrote:

      ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

      HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
      gears just as various groups of people do.
      These things, like the economic crisis and
      wars, don't just happen. They are caused
      by people acting as Unconscious Agents
      of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
      a process of purification involved with shifting
      gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
      or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
      there, are there because the people of that
      country have things to learn."
    • prometheus_973
      Klemp stated, We don t recruit people. We are simply here when people are ready for the teachings. Now why then is so much time, money, and service is
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 16, 2008
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        Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
        We are simply here when people are
        ready for the teachings."

        Now why then is so much time, money,
        and service is focused upon if this statement
        was true? Why is there a spiritual year
        called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
        this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
        and have so much focus "geared" to the
        publicity and promotion of ECKankar
        VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
        the Consciousness of long-time current
        (paying) members by handing out more
        and Higher Initiations if that statement
        was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

        FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
        it always happens when he opens his mouth
        and words come out. And I've noticed that
        HK's crooked little smile will either come before
        or after the lies.

        Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
        as he did last year, that "all of the names
        I use for the characters in my stories are
        fictitious. I use a book of names written for
        writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
        names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
        names."

        Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
        But, since he brought up the topic of novels
        and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
        fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
        a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
        has taken him since he's the one who pointed
        it out.

        Of course EKies will see this differently
        and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
        Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
        and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
        due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
        Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

        HK also stated that, "I like to be around
        other people [really?] and the ECK touches
        them in some way but I don't try to control
        It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
        ECKists!

        But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
        and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
        be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
        The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
        as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
        stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
        he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
        Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
        poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
        important even though they are of the Mental
        (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
        aura when around others. His aura will just
        dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
        of those he meets at the grocery store and
        other public places!

        And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
        is not only using fictitious names, because
        he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
        the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
        BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

        Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
        who write "Novels" (fiction).

        I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
        and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
        right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
        I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
        subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
        why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
        afterwards.

        After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
        that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
        to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
        because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
        (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
        contemplate and regain my balance and my
        independence as Soul. However, there is a
        greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
        they call ECKankar.

        More excerpts later--

        Prometheus


        Prometheus wrote:
        It seems that Klemp is always
        thinking he needs to remind ECKists
        of their basic beliefs! It does make
        for a simplified talk that requires
        minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
        getting tired of Klemp talking down
        to them? What happened to Higher
        Consciousness? Has it come down
        to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

        The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
        that Physical Experience and the
        burning off of Karma results in the
        (eventual) purification of Soul.

        However, Initiation helps to speedup
        this burn-off process. Thus, being
        "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
        supposedly, key in speeding up this
        process of more rapidly burning off
        of Karma with "inner" experiences
        and via the "Master" taking on some
        of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
        Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
        leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
        of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

        I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
        (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
        Temple, but it has the potential due
        to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
        games being played. Let's face it--the
        disenfranchised are attracted to religions
        like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
        can become the Living God!

        Prometheus

        Liska wrote:
        HK's outer directed focus continues.
        Note how his attention is placed
        on the Kal again. We could ask
        ourselves, why does someone who
        claims to be God Realized and the
        incarnation of God on earth and in
        all the universes spend so much time
        talking about the devil? Does he even
        have a clue what people living under
        different governments are supposed
        to learn? It's easy to come up with
        platitudes, but why not offer some
        reasons for why something is what
        it is? Purification is a stock phrase
        that can be used in conjunction with
        anything.

        Liska

        Prometheus wrote:

        ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

        HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
        gears just as various groups of people do.
        These things, like the economic crisis and
        wars, don't just happen. They are caused
        by people acting as Unconscious Agents
        of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
        a process of purification involved with shifting
        gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
        or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
        there, are there because the people of that
        country have things to learn."
      • Non ekster
        Yes, the lies Klmep spews make you sick, but mostly for the ones who still force feed themselves that absolute nonsense. It s interesting that pathological
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 16, 2008
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          Yes, the lies Klmep spews make you sick, but mostly for the ones who
          still force feed themselves that absolute nonsense. It's interesting
          that pathological liars often do tell their victims in some way that
          they are lying to them. That way, the liar doesn't have to feel guilty
          for deceiving others. It's too bad, but CONS like KLEMP really do
          cause harm, and like a child with abusive parents, often it does take
          some therapy to get over it, and the abused child does not want to
          believe the obvious about the abuse as it can be very painful at
          first, but it is better than living a lie.

          Non ekster ; ) Take Care

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
          > We are simply here when people are
          > ready for the teachings."
          >
          > Now why then is so much time, money,
          > and service is focused upon if this statement
          > was true? Why is there a spiritual year
          > called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
          > this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
          > and have so much focus "geared" to the
          > publicity and promotion of ECKankar
          > VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
          > the Consciousness of long-time current
          > (paying) members by handing out more
          > and Higher Initiations if that statement
          > was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!
          >
          > FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
          > it always happens when he opens his mouth
          > and words come out. And I've noticed that
          > HK's crooked little smile will either come before
          > or after the lies.
          >
          > Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
          > as he did last year, that "all of the names
          > I use for the characters in my stories are
          > fictitious. I use a book of names written for
          > writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
          > names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
          > names."
          >
          > Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
          > But, since he brought up the topic of novels
          > and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
          > fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
          > a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
          > has taken him since he's the one who pointed
          > it out.
          >
          > Of course EKies will see this differently
          > and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
          > Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
          > and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
          > due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
          > Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!
          >
          > HK also stated that, "I like to be around
          > other people [really?] and the ECK touches
          > them in some way but I don't try to control
          > It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
          > ECKists!
          >
          > But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
          > and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
          > be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
          > The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
          > as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
          > stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
          > he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
          > Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
          > poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
          > important even though they are of the Mental
          > (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
          > aura when around others. His aura will just
          > dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
          > of those he meets at the grocery store and
          > other public places!
          >
          > And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
          > is not only using fictitious names, because
          > he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
          > the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
          > BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"
          >
          > Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
          > who write "Novels" (fiction).
          >
          > I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
          > and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
          > right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
          > I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
          > subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
          > why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
          > afterwards.
          >
          > After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
          > that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
          > to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
          > because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
          > (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
          > contemplate and regain my balance and my
          > independence as Soul. However, there is a
          > greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
          > they call ECKankar.
          >
          > More excerpts later--
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Prometheus wrote:
          > It seems that Klemp is always
          > thinking he needs to remind ECKists
          > of their basic beliefs! It does make
          > for a simplified talk that requires
          > minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
          > getting tired of Klemp talking down
          > to them? What happened to Higher
          > Consciousness? Has it come down
          > to this redundant crap? Apparently so!
          >
          > The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
          > that Physical Experience and the
          > burning off of Karma results in the
          > (eventual) purification of Soul.
          >
          > However, Initiation helps to speedup
          > this burn-off process. Thus, being
          > "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
          > supposedly, key in speeding up this
          > process of more rapidly burning off
          > of Karma with "inner" experiences
          > and via the "Master" taking on some
          > of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
          > Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
          > leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
          > of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!
          >
          > I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
          > (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
          > Temple, but it has the potential due
          > to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
          > games being played. Let's face it--the
          > disenfranchised are attracted to religions
          > like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
          > can become the Living God!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > Liska wrote:
          > HK's outer directed focus continues.
          > Note how his attention is placed
          > on the Kal again. We could ask
          > ourselves, why does someone who
          > claims to be God Realized and the
          > incarnation of God on earth and in
          > all the universes spend so much time
          > talking about the devil? Does he even
          > have a clue what people living under
          > different governments are supposed
          > to learn? It's easy to come up with
          > platitudes, but why not offer some
          > reasons for why something is what
          > it is? Purification is a stock phrase
          > that can be used in conjunction with
          > anything.
          >
          > Liska
          >
          > Prometheus wrote:
          >
          > ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:
          >
          > HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
          > gears just as various groups of people do.
          > These things, like the economic crisis and
          > wars, don't just happen. They are caused
          > by people acting as Unconscious Agents
          > of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
          > a process of purification involved with shifting
          > gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
          > or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
          > there, are there because the people of that
          > country have things to learn."
          >
        • drubezarne
          Eckists basically live in a spiritual vacuum. When they allow their Master Harold Klemp to be their sole fountain of knowledge along with Paul Twitchell s
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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            Eckists basically live in a spiritual vacuum. When they allow their
            Master Harold Klemp to be their sole fountain of knowledge along with
            Paul Twitchell's writings, they are basically living in a void. In the
            absence of comparison, how can they see that they have been lied to?

            Many of us who managed to break away from this insular existence
            called Eckankar have gained a more expansive viewpoint of life. We're
            finally able to see through the lies spread by those 3 charlatans
            (Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp) calling themselves Masters.

            We're not afraid to read works by other authors who have a different
            viewpoint than Eckankar's dogma. In the process, we've found works by
            authors who have more honest and profound views of life than the ones
            championed by the three Eckankar impostors. Living outside a spiritual
            vacuum makes one realize how shallow and dishonest Klemp's words are.
            Check it out for yourself. Here's a writer who makes Klemp's
            philosophy sound like that of a halfwit.

            The writer's name is Henry T. Laurency. You can download his books for
            free in .pdf format here...

            http://www.laurency.com/

            Regards
            Liska



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non ekster"
            <eckchains@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes, the lies Klmep spews make you sick, but mostly for the ones who
            > still force feed themselves that absolute nonsense. It's interesting
            > that pathological liars often do tell their victims in some way that
            > they are lying to them. That way, the liar doesn't have to feel guilty
            > for deceiving others. It's too bad, but CONS like KLEMP really do
            > cause harm, and like a child with abusive parents, often it does take
            > some therapy to get over it, and the abused child does not want to
            > believe the obvious about the abuse as it can be very painful at
            > first, but it is better than living a lie.
            >
            > Non ekster ; ) Take Care
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
            > > We are simply here when people are
            > > ready for the teachings."
            > >
            > > Now why then is so much time, money,
            > > and service is focused upon if this statement
            > > was true? Why is there a spiritual year
            > > called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
            > > this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
            > > and have so much focus "geared" to the
            > > publicity and promotion of ECKankar
            > > VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
            > > the Consciousness of long-time current
            > > (paying) members by handing out more
            > > and Higher Initiations if that statement
            > > was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!
            > >
            > > FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
            > > it always happens when he opens his mouth
            > > and words come out. And I've noticed that
            > > HK's crooked little smile will either come before
            > > or after the lies.
          • prometheus_973
            It s not really all that surprising that someone as nasty as Klemp can t forgive Darwin! However, one would think that HK would act the part as if he was a
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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              It's not really all that surprising that
              someone as nasty as Klemp can't forgive
              Darwin! However, one would think that
              HK would act the part "as if" he was
              a compassionate and loving Master.
              But, this wasn't so! However, this goes
              to show (as proof) that Klemp is a
              narcissist because they can never
              apologize or forgive.

              Instead, Klemp mentioned Paul Newman's
              death and made some "telling" remarks
              once again!

              With Klemp one has to read between the
              lines and look at what he didn't say or
              could have/should have said. His talks
              and writings are way too simple with no
              spiritual meat and leave a lot of room for
              ECKists to fill-in the blanks, second guess,
              and to imagine anything they want.
              This is how HK can be all things for all
              people. Jim Jones used a similar technique.


              HK: "Paul Newman, who recently died, didn't
              care how he aged. And the proceeds from the
              sale of his salad dressing line went to charity."


              Hmmmm... Newman "didn't care how he aged."
              I wonder if Klemp isn't looking at himself and
              his own aging process! Maybe he read what we
              said about that photo of his wrinkled old "Gaze"
              that he's selling!

              Of course, Klemp understated Newman's
              product line since almost all of us know that
              it's more than just a "salad dressing line!"
              And, the "charity" that the money goes to is
              The Hole In The Wall Gang. Why not mention
              the charity by name since HK mentioned Paul
              Newman by name? Does Klemp support any
              charity? Maybe Klemp didn't want to endorse
              this charity because it could divert money away
              from ECKankar and his income (charity).

              Okay, let's get back to Darwin Gross the 972nd
              LEM/Mahanta who died in March 2008. Did any
              long-time (30 year plus) ECKists ever care for
              Darwin? I really liked him! He gave me a couple
              or so initiations and I know that DG gave others
              a bunch of initiations, and some even skipped
              initiations. Klemp, later, made some of these same
              people RESAs. So, it doesn't seem like skipping
              initiations or having a 4th for a few months before
              getting the 5th was any big deal after all.

              And, didn't Darwin give Klemp get some Higher
              Initiations rather fast? Sure he did! Klemp got
              his 8th in June of 1980 and his 9th in June of
              1981 and his 12th in Oct. of 1981! That means
              that Darwin gave Klemp the 10th, and 11th
              Initiations between June and October of 1981!

              And now, after Darwin had done so much for
              Klemp and Company, via the Initiation process
              as their LEM/Mahanta and Inner Master, there
              is nothing said of his passing/translation! What's
              wrong with this picture? If it wasn't for Darwin
              Klemp wouldn't be the LEM, and ECKists wouldn't
              be giving Harry all of those accolades and Klemp
              wouldn't be having his crappy books printed!

              Klemp owes Darwin everything... all that he is
              and has! And still, there is nothing said. Klemp
              is truly a mean spirited and nasty little man.
              This is proof beyond reproach that Klemp is
              Not a Master and that he is Not even beyond
              the Astral Plane of Consciousness! This is not
              how a "Master" behaves!

              Prometheus



              Liska wrote:
              Eckists basically live in a spiritual vacuum.
              When they allow their Master Harold Klemp
              to be their sole fountain of knowledge along
              with Paul Twitchell's writings, they are basically
              living in a void. In the absence of comparison,
              how can they see that they have been lied to?

              Many of us who managed to break away
              from this insular existence called Eckankar
              have gained a more expansive viewpoint
              of life. We're finally able to see through the
              lies spread by those 3 charlatans (Twitchell,
              Gross, and Klemp) calling themselves Masters.

              We're not afraid to read works by other authors
              who have a different viewpoint than Eckankar's
              dogma. In the process, we've found works by
              authors who have more honest and profound
              views of life than the ones championed by the
              three Eckankar impostors. Living outside a spiritual
              vacuum makes one realize how shallow and
              dishonest Klemp's words are. Check it out for
              yourself. Here's a writer who makes Klemp's
              philosophy sound like that of a halfwit.

              The writer's name is Henry T. Laurency. You
              can download his books for
              free in .pdf format here...

              http://www.laurency.com/

              Regards
              Liska
            • prometheus_973
              Here Klemp talks about his EMR problems (etc) as he continues to use his scare tacticts on ECKists to keep them away from the Internet. Please comment on the
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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                Here Klemp talks about his EMR problems
                (etc) as he continues to use his scare
                tacticts on ECKists to keep them away
                from the Internet.

                Please comment on the following:

                HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
                chair with my radio and books nearby.
                I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
                for information.

                This is because my sensitivity to electromagnetic
                frequencies makes it impossible for me
                to use a computer."

                Klemp also mentioned that "those who
                go online are often overwhelmed by
                information."

                And, "many ECKists send things for me
                to try out and some work while others
                don't, but I've built up my stamina.
                Things were rough for a few years but
                are smoothing out now.

                It seems when doctors see new symptoms
                they get frightened, but things keep
                changing and you just have to learn to
                adapt." [end]

                Prometheus



                Prometheus wrote:
                Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
                We are simply here when people are
                ready for the teachings."

                Now why then is so much time, money,
                and service is focused upon if this statement
                was true? Why is there a spiritual year
                called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
                this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
                and have so much focus "geared" to the
                publicity and promotion of ECKankar
                VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
                the Consciousness of long-time current
                (paying) members by handing out more
                and Higher Initiations if that statement
                was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

                FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
                it always happens when he opens his mouth
                and words come out. And I've noticed that
                HK's crooked little smile will either come before
                or after the lies.

                Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
                as he did last year, that "all of the names
                I use for the characters in my stories are
                fictitious. I use a book of names written for
                writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
                names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
                names."

                Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
                But, since he brought up the topic of novels
                and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
                fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
                a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
                has taken him since he's the one who pointed
                it out.

                Of course EKies will see this differently
                and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
                Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
                and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
                due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
                Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

                HK also stated that, "I like to be around
                other people [really?] and the ECK touches
                them in some way but I don't try to control
                It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
                ECKists!

                But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
                and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
                be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
                The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
                as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
                stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
                he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
                Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
                poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
                important even though they are of the Mental
                (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
                aura when around others. His aura will just
                dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
                of those he meets at the grocery store and
                other public places!

                And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
                is not only using fictitious names, because
                he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
                the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
                BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

                Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
                who write "Novels" (fiction).

                I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
                and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
                right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
                I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
                subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
                why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
                afterwards.

                After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
                that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
                to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
                because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
                (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
                contemplate and regain my balance and my
                independence as Soul. However, there is a
                greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
                they call ECKankar.

                More excerpts later--

                Prometheus


                Prometheus wrote:
                It seems that Klemp is always
                thinking he needs to remind ECKists
                of their basic beliefs! It does make
                for a simplified talk that requires
                minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
                getting tired of Klemp talking down
                to them? What happened to Higher
                Consciousness? Has it come down
                to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

                The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
                that Physical Experience and the
                burning off of Karma results in the
                (eventual) purification of Soul.

                However, Initiation helps to speedup
                this burn-off process. Thus, being
                "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
                supposedly, key in speeding up this
                process of more rapidly burning off
                of Karma with "inner" experiences
                and via the "Master" taking on some
                of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
                Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
                leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
                of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

                I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
                (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
                Temple, but it has the potential due
                to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
                games being played. Let's face it--the
                disenfranchised are attracted to religions
                like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
                can become the Living God!

                Prometheus

                Liska wrote:
                HK's outer directed focus continues.
                Note how his attention is placed
                on the Kal again. We could ask
                ourselves, why does someone who
                claims to be God Realized and the
                incarnation of God on earth and in
                all the universes spend so much time
                talking about the devil? Does he even
                have a clue what people living under
                different governments are supposed
                to learn? It's easy to come up with
                platitudes, but why not offer some
                reasons for why something is what
                it is? Purification is a stock phrase
                that can be used in conjunction with
                anything.

                Liska

                Prometheus wrote:

                ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

                HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
                gears just as various groups of people do.
                These things, like the economic crisis and
                wars, don't just happen. They are caused
                by people acting as Unconscious Agents
                of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
                a process of purification involved with shifting
                gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
                or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
                there, are there because the people of that
                country have things to learn."
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, I thought that I d give my insights and comment more on Klemp s talk. *** HK: I work at home and sit in a rocking chair with my radio and books
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 19, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  I thought that I'd give my insights
                  and comment more on Klemp's talk.

                  ***

                  HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
                  chair with my radio and books nearby.
                  I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
                  for information."

                  *ME: Yes, Harold has a job where he
                  "works" at home. Actually, Klemp's
                  been retired for a number of years.
                  Writing books is more like a hobby
                  for him. ECKists should kick Klemp
                  to the curb. This is the 21st Century
                  and Master Klemp is sitting in a rocking
                  chair listening to talk shows like Paul
                  Harvey and Rush while reading the
                  dictionary! I'm sure the Boring EK Master
                  does do this at times... when he's not
                  on the Internet or yelling at Joan to
                  be quiet and stop talking!

                  HK: "This is because my sensitivity to
                  electromagnetic frequencies makes
                  it impossible for me to use a computer."

                  *ME: What a load of Bullshit! They don't
                  even make CRT's anymore do they?
                  Klemp is taking a two prong approach.
                  One prong is to keep ECKists away from
                  the Internet and the other is to have an
                  excuse for his illnesses while, also, making
                  it seem that he doesn't use a computer
                  to do research or to read this site.

                  HK: "...those who go online are often
                  overwhelmed by information."

                  *ME: That sounds like a person who
                  goes online to do research! LOL! Klemp
                  reminds me of Dubya or Palin at times.
                  He just can't help what comes out of
                  his mouth. Not all of his chelas are
                  mindless, brain-washed and stupid.
                  There are some chelas that now realize
                  they've been duped and short-changed!

                  HK: "... many ECKists send things
                  for me to try out and some work
                  while others don't, but I've built up
                  my stamina. Things were rough for
                  a few years but are smoothing out now."

                  *ME: Wait a minute! Why wouldn't the
                  Mahanta Consciousness "KNOW" what
                  would work and what wouldn't? And,
                  why would the Mahanta need others
                  who are of what level of consciousness
                  (the 7th or lower) to send remedies to
                  the 14th Plane "Full" Mahanta! That doesn't
                  make sense does it? That's because Klemp
                  isn't who and what he claims to be! It's
                  obvious! Look at what Klemp said!!!
                  Anyone who is of the Highest Consciousness
                  of all Planes and all universes would "KNOW."
                  This is like sending GOD a remedy because
                  HE gets sick and needs "our" help in knowing
                  what to do to get better! LOL! Is this thinking
                  stupid or what?

                  HK: "It seems when doctors see new
                  symptoms they get frightened, but things
                  keep changing and you just have to learn
                  to adapt." [end]

                  *ME: No! That's not how it works and
                  anyone with some common sense knows
                  this! Doctors don't get "frightened" when
                  they see a patient with "new symptoms"
                  unless the doctor is a quack!

                  The patient is the one who might be
                  alarmed or "frightened" not the doctor!

                  I'm thinking that Klemp wouldn't have
                  said this unless he's the one that had
                  been "frightened" by a new symptom
                  that he reported to the doctor. And that
                  the doctor needed to "change" Klemp's
                  medication.

                  Of course, Klemp should have stopped
                  using the medication when he noticed
                  "new symptoms" or what might have been
                  side effects of the medication. People just
                  have to weigh whether or not the side effects
                  of medication are all that bad when considering
                  living with the effects of their disease.

                  In any case, upon closer analysis of what
                  Klemp has said, it is clear that Klemp is
                  a fraud and should have stepped down
                  15 years ago! Unfortunately, it looks like
                  he's staying for 10 more years for a total
                  of 3 Twelve Year Cycles, or until his death!
                  Klemp, it would seem, wants to take ECKankar
                  to the grave with him! What a narcissist!

                  Prometheus



                  Prometheus wrote:
                  Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
                  We are simply here when people are
                  ready for the teachings."

                  Now why then is so much time, money,
                  and service is focused upon if this statement
                  was true? Why is there a spiritual year
                  called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
                  this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
                  and have so much focus "geared" to the
                  publicity and promotion of ECKankar
                  VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
                  the Consciousness of long-time current
                  (paying) members by handing out more
                  and Higher Initiations if that statement
                  was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

                  FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
                  it always happens when he opens his mouth
                  and words come out. And I've noticed that
                  HK's crooked little smile will either come before
                  or after the lies.

                  Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
                  as he did last year, that "all of the names
                  I use for the characters in my stories are
                  fictitious. I use a book of names written for
                  writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
                  names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
                  names."

                  Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
                  But, since he brought up the topic of novels
                  and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
                  fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
                  a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
                  has taken him since he's the one who pointed
                  it out.

                  Of course EKies will see this differently
                  and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
                  Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
                  and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
                  due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
                  Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

                  HK also stated that, "I like to be around
                  other people [really?] and the ECK touches
                  them in some way but I don't try to control
                  It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
                  ECKists!

                  But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
                  and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
                  be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
                  The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
                  as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
                  stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
                  he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
                  Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
                  poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
                  important even though they are of the Mental
                  (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
                  aura when around others. His aura will just
                  dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
                  of those he meets at the grocery store and
                  other public places!

                  And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
                  is not only using fictitious names, because
                  he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
                  the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
                  BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

                  Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
                  who write "Novels" (fiction).

                  I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
                  and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
                  right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
                  I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
                  subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
                  why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
                  afterwards.

                  After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
                  that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
                  to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
                  because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
                  (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
                  contemplate and regain my balance and my
                  independence as Soul. However, there is a
                  greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
                  they call ECKankar.

                  More excerpts later--

                  Prometheus


                  Prometheus wrote:
                  It seems that Klemp is always
                  thinking he needs to remind ECKists
                  of their basic beliefs! It does make
                  for a simplified talk that requires
                  minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
                  getting tired of Klemp talking down
                  to them? What happened to Higher
                  Consciousness? Has it come down
                  to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

                  The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
                  that Physical Experience and the
                  burning off of Karma results in the
                  (eventual) purification of Soul.

                  However, Initiation helps to speedup
                  this burn-off process. Thus, being
                  "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
                  supposedly, key in speeding up this
                  process of more rapidly burning off
                  of Karma with "inner" experiences
                  and via the "Master" taking on some
                  of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
                  Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
                  leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
                  of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

                  I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
                  (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
                  Temple, but it has the potential due
                  to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
                  games being played. Let's face it--the
                  disenfranchised are attracted to religions
                  like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
                  can become the Living God!

                  Prometheus

                  Liska wrote:
                  HK's outer directed focus continues.
                  Note how his attention is placed
                  on the Kal again. We could ask
                  ourselves, why does someone who
                  claims to be God Realized and the
                  incarnation of God on earth and in
                  all the universes spend so much time
                  talking about the devil? Does he even
                  have a clue what people living under
                  different governments are supposed
                  to learn? It's easy to come up with
                  platitudes, but why not offer some
                  reasons for why something is what
                  it is? Purification is a stock phrase
                  that can be used in conjunction with
                  anything.

                  Liska

                  Prometheus wrote:

                  ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

                  HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
                  gears just as various groups of people do.
                  These things, like the economic crisis and
                  wars, don't just happen. They are caused
                  by people acting as Unconscious Agents
                  of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
                  a process of purification involved with shifting
                  gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
                  or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
                  there, are there because the people of that
                  country have things to learn."
                • prometheus_973
                  Klemp mentions Thanksgiving and that, I like it because there s no obligation to buy gifts... People get together with family and friends to have a good time
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 26, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                    and that, "I like it because there's
                    no obligation to buy gifts... People
                    get together with family and friends
                    to have a good time and it's a time
                    to be grateful for our blessings."

                    Maybe the Klemps will be driving
                    over to the Appleton, Wisconsin
                    area to have Thanksgiving with Harry's
                    brother and other family members?
                    Who knows maybe HK's sister might
                    fly in from the west coast. I wonder
                    if Harry would spend the money to
                    fly his daughter and 3 grandkids in?

                    This is a better holiday for Harry because
                    he doesn't have to shop and buy gifts!
                    I doubt if Harry and Joan see anyone
                    during Christmas. They might even
                    take a cruise, or stay at Peter's house
                    in the Tampa area.

                    However, Klemp's comments only
                    state the obvious. Yes, it is a time
                    that many people in the U.S. to get
                    together with family and friends in
                    order to show gratitude and to give
                    thanks for what they have. However,
                    people should give thanks everyday.

                    MORE PROOF that Klemp is Not
                    an ECK Master:

                    I'm still disappointed with Klemp
                    for not having mentioned Darwin's
                    death and for not taking a moment
                    to say something nice about him.

                    Why mention Paul Newman's death
                    in his 2008 EWWS talk and not Darwin
                    Gross'?

                    Darwin gave Klemp his highest initiations
                    and handed him the LEM position in 1981!

                    This is just more proof that Klemp is
                    mean-spirited and lacks compassion
                    and love. Klemp's inaction and omission
                    of mentioning Darwin shows that he is
                    still holding a grudge (anger and hatred)
                    and this is proof that HK cannot be an
                    ECK Master and Mahanta! ECK Masters
                    are supposed to be above the fray, but
                    Klemp has proven that he is not! This
                    was a sin of omission by a narcissist,
                    and a KAL agent!

                    Klemp fell from Grace years ago and
                    has a death grip on his position of
                    power and prestige. This is attachment!

                    Many ECKists can see this, but are
                    fearful to say anything. Besides, who
                    can they complain to? Everyone knows
                    that people are blacklisted on initiations
                    and positions if they complain or say
                    too much. And, the EK Board is powerless
                    to do anything because of the way in
                    which Klemp restructured the org. after
                    he kicked Darwin to the curb. The Mahanta
                    now has sole authority over the president
                    (and LEM) whereas before (with Darwin)
                    this was not the case. This is also why
                    Klemp was trying to make it seem that
                    Darwin was Not a Mahanta.

                    How could/would a 12th depose a FULL
                    14th Mahanta! He can't according to EK
                    Dogma and, thereby, by law (in case there
                    was an appeal). Thus, HK had to make two
                    claims about Darwin: 1.) Darwin was never
                    a 14th FULL Mahanta 2.) Darwin fell from
                    Grace and was kicked out of the Vairagi Order,
                    but only HK (a living 12th) would know this!

                    Yet, 8th initiate Tom Flamma stated (in his
                    book) that Darwin was the Mahanta and HK
                    gave validity to Flamma for his prophecy of
                    the next LEM told to a group of men.

                    BTW- Did Klemp ever write or say (early
                    on) that Darwin was the Mahanta?

                    Prometheus

                    Prometheus wrote:
                    I thought that I'd give my insights
                    and comment more on Klemp's talk.

                    ***

                    HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
                    chair with my radio and books nearby.
                    I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
                    for information."

                    *ME: Yes, Harold has a job where he
                    "works" at home. Actually, Klemp's
                    been retired for a number of years.
                    Writing books is more like a hobby
                    for him. ECKists should kick Klemp
                    to the curb. This is the 21st Century
                    and Master Klemp is sitting in a rocking
                    chair listening to talk shows like Paul
                    Harvey and Rush while reading the
                    dictionary! I'm sure the Boring EK Master
                    does do this at times... when he's not
                    on the Internet or yelling at Joan to
                    be quiet and stop talking!

                    HK: "This is because my sensitivity to
                    electromagnetic frequencies makes
                    it impossible for me to use a computer."

                    *ME: What a load of Bullshit! They don't
                    even make CRT's anymore do they?
                    Klemp is taking a two prong approach.
                    One prong is to keep ECKists away from
                    the Internet and the other is to have an
                    excuse for his illnesses while, also, making
                    it seem that he doesn't use a computer
                    to do research or to read this site.

                    HK: "...those who go online are often
                    overwhelmed by information."

                    *ME: That sounds like a person who
                    goes online to do research! LOL! Klemp
                    reminds me of Dubya or Palin at times.
                    He just can't help what comes out of
                    his mouth. Not all of his chelas are
                    mindless, brain-washed and stupid.
                    There are some chelas that now realize
                    they've been duped and short-changed!

                    HK: "... many ECKists send things
                    for me to try out and some work
                    while others don't, but I've built up
                    my stamina. Things were rough for
                    a few years but are smoothing out now."

                    *ME: Wait a minute! Why wouldn't the
                    Mahanta Consciousness "KNOW" what
                    would work and what wouldn't? And,
                    why would the Mahanta need others
                    who are of what level of consciousness
                    (the 7th or lower) to send remedies to
                    the 14th Plane "Full" Mahanta! That doesn't
                    make sense does it? That's because Klemp
                    isn't who and what he claims to be! It's
                    obvious! Look at what Klemp said!!!
                    Anyone who is of the Highest Consciousness
                    of all Planes and all universes would "KNOW."
                    This is like sending GOD a remedy because
                    HE gets sick and needs "our" help in knowing
                    what to do to get better! LOL! Is this thinking
                    stupid or what?

                    HK: "It seems when doctors see new
                    symptoms they get frightened, but things
                    keep changing and you just have to learn
                    to adapt." [end]

                    *ME: No! That's not how it works and
                    anyone with some common sense knows
                    this! Doctors don't get "frightened" when
                    they see a patient with "new symptoms"
                    unless the doctor is a quack!

                    The patient is the one who might be
                    alarmed or "frightened" not the doctor!

                    I'm thinking that Klemp wouldn't have
                    said this unless he's the one that had
                    been "frightened" by a new symptom
                    that he reported to the doctor. And that
                    the doctor needed to "change" Klemp's
                    medication.

                    Of course, Klemp should have stopped
                    using the medication when he noticed
                    "new symptoms" or what might have been
                    side effects of the medication. People just
                    have to weigh whether or not the side effects
                    of medication are all that bad when considering
                    living with the effects of their disease.

                    In any case, upon closer analysis of what
                    Klemp has said, it is clear that Klemp is
                    a fraud and should have stepped down
                    15 years ago! Unfortunately, it looks like
                    he's staying for 10 more years for a total
                    of 3 Twelve Year Cycles, or until his death!
                    Klemp, it would seem, wants to take ECKankar
                    to the grave with him! What a narcissist!

                    Prometheus



                    Prometheus wrote:
                    Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
                    We are simply here when people are
                    ready for the teachings."

                    Now why then is so much time, money,
                    and service is focused upon if this statement
                    was true? Why is there a spiritual year
                    called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
                    this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
                    and have so much focus "geared" to the
                    publicity and promotion of ECKankar
                    VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
                    the Consciousness of long-time current
                    (paying) members by handing out more
                    and Higher Initiations if that statement
                    was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

                    FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
                    it always happens when he opens his mouth
                    and words come out. And I've noticed that
                    HK's crooked little smile will either come before
                    or after the lies.

                    Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
                    as he did last year, that "all of the names
                    I use for the characters in my stories are
                    fictitious. I use a book of names written for
                    writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
                    names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
                    names."

                    Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
                    But, since he brought up the topic of novels
                    and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
                    fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
                    a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
                    has taken him since he's the one who pointed
                    it out.

                    Of course EKies will see this differently
                    and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
                    Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
                    and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
                    due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
                    Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

                    HK also stated that, "I like to be around
                    other people [really?] and the ECK touches
                    them in some way but I don't try to control
                    It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
                    ECKists!

                    But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
                    and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
                    be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
                    The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
                    as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
                    stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
                    he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
                    Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
                    poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
                    important even though they are of the Mental
                    (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
                    aura when around others. His aura will just
                    dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
                    of those he meets at the grocery store and
                    other public places!

                    And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
                    is not only using fictitious names, because
                    he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
                    the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
                    BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

                    Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
                    who write "Novels" (fiction).

                    I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
                    and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
                    right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
                    I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
                    subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
                    why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
                    afterwards.

                    After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
                    that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
                    to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
                    because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
                    (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
                    contemplate and regain my balance and my
                    independence as Soul. However, there is a
                    greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
                    they call ECKankar.

                    More excerpts later--

                    Prometheus


                    Prometheus wrote:
                    It seems that Klemp is always
                    thinking he needs to remind ECKists
                    of their basic beliefs! It does make
                    for a simplified talk that requires
                    minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
                    getting tired of Klemp talking down
                    to them? What happened to Higher
                    Consciousness? Has it come down
                    to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

                    The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
                    that Physical Experience and the
                    burning off of Karma results in the
                    (eventual) purification of Soul.

                    However, Initiation helps to speedup
                    this burn-off process. Thus, being
                    "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
                    supposedly, key in speeding up this
                    process of more rapidly burning off
                    of Karma with "inner" experiences
                    and via the "Master" taking on some
                    of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
                    Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
                    leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
                    of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

                    I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
                    (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
                    Temple, but it has the potential due
                    to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
                    games being played. Let's face it--the
                    disenfranchised are attracted to religions
                    like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
                    can become the Living God!

                    Prometheus

                    Liska wrote:
                    HK's outer directed focus continues.
                    Note how his attention is placed
                    on the Kal again. We could ask
                    ourselves, why does someone who
                    claims to be God Realized and the
                    incarnation of God on earth and in
                    all the universes spend so much time
                    talking about the devil? Does he even
                    have a clue what people living under
                    different governments are supposed
                    to learn? It's easy to come up with
                    platitudes, but why not offer some
                    reasons for why something is what
                    it is? Purification is a stock phrase
                    that can be used in conjunction with
                    anything.

                    Liska

                    Prometheus wrote:

                    ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

                    HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
                    gears just as various groups of people do.
                    These things, like the economic crisis and
                    wars, don't just happen. They are caused
                    by people acting as Unconscious Agents
                    of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
                    a process of purification involved with shifting
                    gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
                    or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
                    there, are there because the people of that
                    country have things to learn."
                  • drubezarne
                    Prometheus, These excerpts from the Eckankar World Wide present the benign public face of Harold Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman who is the leader of a
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 27, 2008
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                      Prometheus,

                      These excerpts from the Eckankar World Wide present the benign public
                      face of Harold Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman who is the
                      leader of a religion called Eckankar. To the unaware public, his
                      statements seem harmless and introduce them to a teaching that seems
                      good-natured and tenderhearted. To the brainwashed eckist, Harold
                      Klemp shows himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle Master.

                      Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility and view the real face
                      of Eckankar and its leader Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                      from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from a discourse series that
                      only higher initiates receive after many years of indoctrination.

                      "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold) can bring the
                      advanced Soul to these heights, for none has the power but him." (
                      Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses, Third Series, p 76).

                      "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon anyone who …deserts the
                      Master….Not once will he see the connection between his betrayal …and
                      the horrendous troubles that strike him down like a plague on every
                      hand.  And thus he goes downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                      despair….  " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses, Third Series,
                      Letter 8).

                      "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their old karma once more.
                      More, the karma of all those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                      their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store for them." (Mystic
                      World, Ask The Master by Harold Klemp, March 2004).

                      "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp) conducts his affairs
                      from this high state of awareness during all of a twenty-four hour
                      day." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)

                      "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp) is the embodiment
                      of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK, and therefore represents the entire
                      ocean of love and compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                      who operates under the strictures of the human level of perception."
                      (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 20).

                      Prometheus, if you can open up the files section, we could upload many
                      more quotes like this that show the real face of Eckankar and its
                      leaders. Let's make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                      of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics of Eckankar's
                      Master who warns against revealing the secrets of the Satsang discourses.

                      Regards
                      Liska

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                      > and that, "I like it because there's
                      > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                      > get together with family and friends
                      > to have a good time and it's a time
                      > to be grateful for our blessings."
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Liska, Klemp isn t too tenderhearted or compassionate when it comes to Darwin! Not mentioning DG s death was unforgiving. It s incredible that long-time
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 27, 2008
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                        Hi Liska,
                        Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                        compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                        Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.

                        It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                        are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                        toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                        to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                        the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                        We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                        every detail of existence or about everyone
                        and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!

                        However, we can all see the proof that
                        Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                        nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!

                        No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                        ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                        Mahanta and that his death should have been
                        mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                        on his behalf.

                        Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                        to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                        can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                        their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                        to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                        and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                        Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                        handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                        growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                        Years than in Klemp's 27!

                        It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                        for Klemp to have said something nice about
                        Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                        Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                        a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                        and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                        Darwin Gross.


                        BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                        setting up some files for various subjects
                        like "ECKankar Threats."


                        Prometheus

                        Liska wrote:
                        Prometheus,
                        These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                        Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                        Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                        who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                        To the unaware public, his statements seem
                        harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                        that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                        To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                        himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                        Master.

                        Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                        and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                        Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                        from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                        a discourse series that only higher initiates
                        receive after many years of indoctrination.

                        "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                        (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                        heights, for none has the power but him."
                        (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                        Third Series, p 76).

                        "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                        anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                        will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                        and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                        like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                        downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                        despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                        Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).

                        "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                        old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                        those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                        their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                        for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                        Harold Klemp, March 2004).

                        "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                        conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                        during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                        The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)

                        "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                        is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                        and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                        compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                        who operates under the strictures of the human level
                        of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                        Fourth Series, Page 20).

                        Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                        we could upload many more quotes like this that
                        show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                        make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                        of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                        of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                        secrets of the Satsang discourses.

                        Regards
                        Liska

                        prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                        > and that, "I like it because there's
                        > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                        > get together with family and friends
                        > to have a good time and it's a time
                        > to be grateful for our blessings."
                      • drubezarne
                        Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3 Eckankar frauds. He doesn t deserve any compassion. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 28, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                          Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                          riddance to bad rubbish.

                          Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                          Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                          Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                          he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                          Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                          yet and so decided to wait 10 years.

                          Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                          did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                          ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                          the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                          this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                          higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.

                          It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                          himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                          also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.

                          There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                          as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                          declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                          just another delusional eckist.

                          I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                          "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                          help to anyone curious about Eckankar.

                          Regards
                          Liska

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Liska,
                          > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                          > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                          > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                          >
                          > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                          > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                          > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                          > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                          > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                          > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                          > every detail of existence or about everyone
                          > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                          >
                          > However, we can all see the proof that
                          > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                          > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                          >
                          > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                          > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                          > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                          > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                          > on his behalf.
                          >
                          > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                          > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                          > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                          > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                          > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                          > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                          > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                          > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                          > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                          > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                          >
                          > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                          > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                          > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                          > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                          > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                          > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                          > Darwin Gross.
                          >
                          >
                          > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                          > setting up some files for various subjects
                          > like "ECKankar Threats."
                          >
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > Liska wrote:
                          > Prometheus,
                          > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                          > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                          > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                          > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                          > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                          > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                          > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                          > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                          > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                          > Master.
                          >
                          > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                          > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                          > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                          > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                          > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                          > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                          >
                          > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                          > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                          > heights, for none has the power but him."
                          > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                          > Third Series, p 76).
                          >
                          > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                          > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                          > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                          > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                          > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                          > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                          > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                          > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                          >
                          > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                          > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                          > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                          > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                          > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                          > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                          >
                          > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                          > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                          > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                          > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                          >
                          > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                          > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                          > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                          > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                          > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                          > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                          > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                          >
                          > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                          > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                          > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                          > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                          > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                          > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                          > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                          >
                          > Regards
                          > Liska
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                          > > and that, "I like it because there's
                          > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                          > > get together with family and friends
                          > > to have a good time and it's a time
                          > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                          >
                        • mishmisha9
                          Liska, you re right who should care about Darwin Gross, really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta is treated so callously by the present
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 29, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                            really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                            is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                            since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                            that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                            example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                            point that out.

                            I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                            hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                            mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                            narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                            with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                            were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                            how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                            counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                            Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?

                            Mish

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne" <drubezarne@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                            > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                            > riddance to bad rubbish.
                            >
                            > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                            > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                            > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                            > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                            > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                            > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                            >
                            > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                            > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                            > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                            > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                            > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                            > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                            >
                            > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                            > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                            > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                            >
                            > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                            > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                            > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                            > just another delusional eckist.
                            >
                            > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                            > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                            > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                            >
                            > Regards
                            > Liska
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Liska,
                            > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                            > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                            > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                            > >
                            > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                            > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                            > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                            > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                            > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                            > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                            > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                            > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                            > >
                            > > However, we can all see the proof that
                            > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                            > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                            > >
                            > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                            > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                            > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                            > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                            > > on his behalf.
                            > >
                            > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                            > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                            > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                            > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                            > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                            > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                            > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                            > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                            > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                            > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                            > >
                            > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                            > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                            > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                            > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                            > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                            > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                            > > Darwin Gross.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                            > > setting up some files for various subjects
                            > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > > Liska wrote:
                            > > Prometheus,
                            > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                            > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                            > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                            > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                            > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                            > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                            > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                            > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                            > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                            > > Master.
                            > >
                            > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                            > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                            > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                            > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                            > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                            > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                            > >
                            > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                            > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                            > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                            > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                            > > Third Series, p 76).
                            > >
                            > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                            > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                            > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                            > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                            > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                            > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                            > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                            > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                            > >
                            > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                            > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                            > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                            > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                            > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                            > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                            > >
                            > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                            > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                            > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                            > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                            > >
                            > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                            > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                            > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                            > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                            > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                            > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                            > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                            > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                            > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                            > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                            > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                            > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                            > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                            > >
                            > > Regards
                            > > Liska
                            > >
                            > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                            > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                            > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                            > > > get together with family and friends
                            > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                            > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                            > >
                            >
                          • drubezarne
                            Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I m wondering if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its pseudo-master Harold
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                              if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                              pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                              something and missing the bigger picture.

                              Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                              signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                              giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                              would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                              followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                              anybody who has the courage to leave him.

                              I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                              said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                              this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                              other spiritual/religious principles.

                              For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                              you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                              record, then you could help out here.

                              Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...

                              1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                              the universes.

                              2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                              of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                              times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."

                              3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                              numerously the "Awakened Dream".

                              4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                              making it the main focus for eckists.

                              Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                              and then we could examine each.

                              Regards
                              Liska

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                              <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                              > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                              > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                              > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                              > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                              > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                              > point that out.
                              >
                              > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                              > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                              > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                              > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                              > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                              > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                              > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                              > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                              > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                              >
                              > Mish
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
                              <drubezarne@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                              > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                              > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                              > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                              > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                              > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                              > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                              > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                              > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                              > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                              > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                              > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                              > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                              > >
                              > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                              > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                              > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                              > >
                              > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                              > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                              > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                              > > just another delusional eckist.
                              > >
                              > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                              > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                              > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                              > >
                              > > Regards
                              > > Liska
                              > >
                              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi Liska,
                              > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                              > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                              > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                              > > >
                              > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                              > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                              > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                              > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                              > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                              > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                              > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                              > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                              > > >
                              > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                              > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                              > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                              > > >
                              > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                              > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                              > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                              > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                              > > > on his behalf.
                              > > >
                              > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                              > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                              > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                              > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                              > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                              > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                              > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                              > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                              > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                              > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                              > > >
                              > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                              > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                              > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                              > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                              > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                              > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                              > > > Darwin Gross.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                              > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                              > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > > Liska wrote:
                              > > > Prometheus,
                              > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                              > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                              > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                              > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                              > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                              > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                              > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                              > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                              > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                              > > > Master.
                              > > >
                              > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                              > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                              > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                              > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                              > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                              > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                              > > >
                              > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                              > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                              > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                              > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                              > > > Third Series, p 76).
                              > > >
                              > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                              > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                              > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                              > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                              > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                              > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                              > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                              > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                              > > >
                              > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                              > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                              > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                              > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                              > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                              > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                              > > >
                              > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                              > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                              > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                              > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                              > > >
                              > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                              > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                              > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                              > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                              > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                              > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                              > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                              > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                              > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                              > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                              > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                              > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                              > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                              > > >
                              > > > Regards
                              > > > Liska
                              > > >
                              > > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                              > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                              > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                              > > > > get together with family and friends
                              > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                              > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Liska and All, I can t speak for Mish, but with Klemp the devil is in the details. Therefore, I don t see that there has been too much focus on trivial
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
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                                Hello Liska and All,
                                I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                                the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                                I don't see that there has been too much
                                focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                                The little pictures tend to complete the
                                big picture. I don't see anything trivial.

                                For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                                at and piecing together the missing parts
                                to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                                the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                                pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                                why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.

                                However, if you want to focus more on the
                                "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                                thinking that the focus here has been on both
                                the big and the small pictures.

                                But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                                a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                                and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                                show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                                delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                                character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                                early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                                divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                                bigger picture?

                                For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                                Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                                ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                                or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                                Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                                met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                                transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                                One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                                as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                                of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).

                                The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                                when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                                that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                                2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                                "common language" for AUM.

                                When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                                of the Light and Sound of God?

                                Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"

                                When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                                spin?

                                When was the RESA org. first created?

                                When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                                and Why?

                                When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                                the Mahanta?"

                                When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"

                                BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                                as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                                the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                                the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                                thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                                "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                                Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                                intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]

                                And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                                and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                                die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                                him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                                Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                                is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                                that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                                for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!

                                Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                                and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                                to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.

                                Prometheus


                                pjr_sr wrote:
                                Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                                if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                                pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                                something and missing the bigger picture.

                                Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                                signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                                giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                                would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                                followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                                anybody who has the courage to leave him.

                                I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                                said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                                this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                                other spiritual/religious principles.

                                For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                                you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                                record, then you could help out here.

                                Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...

                                1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                                the universes.

                                2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                                of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                                times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."

                                3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                                numerously the "Awakened Dream".

                                4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                                making it the main focus for eckists.

                                Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                                and then we could examine each.

                                Regards
                                Liska


                                mishmisha9@wrote:
                                >
                                > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                                > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                                > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                                > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                                > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                                > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                                > point that out.
                                >
                                > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                                > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                                > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                                > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                                > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                                > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                                > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                                > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                                > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                                >
                                > Mish
                                >

                                drubezarne@wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                                > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                                > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                                > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                                > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                                > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                                > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                                > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                                > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                                > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                                > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                                > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                                > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                                > >
                                > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                                > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                                > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                                > >
                                > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                                > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                                > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                                > > just another delusional eckist.
                                > >
                                > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                                > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                                > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                                > >
                                > > Regards
                                > > Liska
                                > >

                                > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Liska,
                                > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                                > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                                > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                                > > >
                                > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                                > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                                > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                                > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                                > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                                > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                                > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                                > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                                > > >
                                > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                                > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                                > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                                > > >
                                > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                                > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                                > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                                > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                                > > > on his behalf.
                                > > >
                                > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                                > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                                > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                                > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                                > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                                > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                                > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                                > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                                > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                                > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                                > > >
                                > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                                > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                                > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                                > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                                > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                                > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                                > > > Darwin Gross.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                                > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                                > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > > Liska wrote:
                                > > > Prometheus,
                                > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                                > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                                > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                                > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                                > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                                > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                                > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                                > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                                > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                                > > > Master.
                                > > >
                                > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                                > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                                > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                                > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                                > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                                > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                                > > >
                                > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                                > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                                > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                                > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                                > > > Third Series, p 76).
                                > > >
                                > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                                > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                                > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                                > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                                > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                                > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                                > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                                > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                                > > >
                                > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                                > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                                > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                                > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                                > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                                > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                                > > >
                                > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                                > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                                > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                                > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                                > > >
                                > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                                > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                                > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                                > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                                > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                                > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                                > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                                > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                                > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                                > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                                > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                                > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                                > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                                > > >
                                > > > Regards
                                > > > Liska
                                > > >
                                > > > prometheus wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                                > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                                > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                                > > > > get together with family and friends
                                > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                                > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                                > > >
                              • drubezarne
                                Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got rid of all my Eckankar
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
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                                  Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
                                  Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
                                  rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation. All
                                  I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as I
                                  can and move on to better things.

                                  So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
                                  anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
                                  leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of it
                                  is old.

                                  Regards
                                  Liska

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Liska and All,
                                  > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                                  > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                                  > I don't see that there has been too much
                                  > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                                  > The little pictures tend to complete the
                                  > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
                                  >
                                  > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                                  > at and piecing together the missing parts
                                  > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                                  > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                                  > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                                  > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
                                  >
                                  > However, if you want to focus more on the
                                  > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                                  > thinking that the focus here has been on both
                                  > the big and the small pictures.
                                  >
                                  > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                                  > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                                  > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                                  > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                                  > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                                  > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                                  > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                                  > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                                  > bigger picture?
                                  >
                                  > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                                  > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                                  > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                                  > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                                  > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                                  > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                                  > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                                  > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                                  > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                                  > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
                                  >
                                  > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                                  > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                                  > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                                  > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                                  > "common language" for AUM.
                                  >
                                  > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                                  > of the Light and Sound of God?
                                  >
                                  > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
                                  >
                                  > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                                  > spin?
                                  >
                                  > When was the RESA org. first created?
                                  >
                                  > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                                  > and Why?
                                  >
                                  > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                                  > the Mahanta?"
                                  >
                                  > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
                                  >
                                  > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                                  > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                                  > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                                  > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                                  > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                                  > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                                  > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                                  > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
                                  >
                                  > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                                  > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                                  > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                                  > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                                  > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                                  > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                                  > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                                  > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                                  > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                                  > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > pjr_sr wrote:
                                  > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                                  > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                                  > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                                  > something and missing the bigger picture.
                                  >
                                  > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                                  > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                                  > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                                  > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                                  > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                                  > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
                                  >
                                  > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                                  > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                                  > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                                  > other spiritual/religious principles.
                                  >
                                  > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                                  > you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                                  > record, then you could help out here.
                                  >
                                  > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
                                  >
                                  > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                                  > the universes.
                                  >
                                  > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                                  > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                                  > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."
                                  >
                                  > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                                  > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
                                  >
                                  > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                                  > making it the main focus for eckists.
                                  >
                                  > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                                  > and then we could examine each.
                                  >
                                  > Regards
                                  > Liska
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > mishmisha9@wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                                  > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                                  > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                                  > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                                  > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                                  > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                                  > > point that out.
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                                  > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                                  > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                                  > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                                  > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                                  > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                                  > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                                  > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                                  > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                                  > >
                                  > > Mish
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > drubezarne@wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of
                                  the 3
                                  > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                                  > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
                                  rid of
                                  > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                                  > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                                  > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                                  > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready
                                  for it
                                  > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                                  > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
                                  to the
                                  > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                                  > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
                                  say that
                                  > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                                  > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                                  > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle,
                                  but he
                                  > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
                                  master.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                                  > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                                  > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                                  > > > just another delusional eckist.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                                  > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                                  > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Regards
                                  > > > Liska
                                  > > >
                                  >
                                  > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hi Liska,
                                  > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                                  > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                                  > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                                  > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                                  > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                                  > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                                  > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                                  > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                                  > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                                  > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                                  > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                                  > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                                  > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                                  > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                                  > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                                  > > > > on his behalf.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                                  > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                                  > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                                  > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                                  > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                                  > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                                  > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                                  > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                                  > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                                  > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                                  > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                                  > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                                  > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                                  > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                                  > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                                  > > > > Darwin Gross.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                                  > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                                  > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Prometheus
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Liska wrote:
                                  > > > > Prometheus,
                                  > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                                  > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                                  > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                                  > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                                  > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                                  > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                                  > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                                  > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                                  > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                                  > > > > Master.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                                  > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                                  > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                                  > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                                  > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                                  > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                                  > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                                  > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                                  > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                                  > > > > Third Series, p 76).
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                                  > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                                  > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                                  > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                                  > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                                  > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                                  > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                                  > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                                  > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                                  > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                                  > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                                  > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                                  > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                                  > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                                  > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                                  > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                                  > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                                  > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                                  > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                                  > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                                  > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                                  > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                                  > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                                  > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                                  > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                                  > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                                  > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                                  > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Regards
                                  > > > > Liska
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                                  > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                                  > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                                  > > > > > get together with family and friends
                                  > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                                  > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                                  > > > >
                                  >
                                • D.R.D.
                                  Responded to this thread earlier in the evening. Mentioned that I had not received Yahoo Groups messages in the past few days. They were bouncing. Apparently,
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 1, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Responded to this thread earlier
                                    in the evening. Mentioned that I had
                                    not received Yahoo Groups messages in
                                    the past few days. They were bouncing.

                                    Apparently, that response bounced
                                    too? Anyhow, I think my Yahoo e-mail
                                    is normal (and working) now.

                                    Etznab

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
                                    <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
                                    > Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
                                    > rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation.
                                    All
                                    > I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as
                                    I
                                    > can and move on to better things.
                                    >
                                    > So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
                                    > anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
                                    > leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of
                                    it
                                    > is old.
                                    >
                                    > Regards
                                    > Liska
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Liska and All,
                                    > > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                                    > > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                                    > > I don't see that there has been too much
                                    > > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                                    > > The little pictures tend to complete the
                                    > > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
                                    > >
                                    > > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                                    > > at and piecing together the missing parts
                                    > > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                                    > > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                                    > > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                                    > > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, if you want to focus more on the
                                    > > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                                    > > thinking that the focus here has been on both
                                    > > the big and the small pictures.
                                    > >
                                    > > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                                    > > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                                    > > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                                    > > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                                    > > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                                    > > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                                    > > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                                    > > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                                    > > bigger picture?
                                    > >
                                    > > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                                    > > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                                    > > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                                    > > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                                    > > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                                    > > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                                    > > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                                    > > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                                    > > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                                    > > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
                                    > >
                                    > > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                                    > > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                                    > > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                                    > > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                                    > > "common language" for AUM.
                                    > >
                                    > > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                                    > > of the Light and Sound of God?
                                    > >
                                    > > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
                                    > >
                                    > > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                                    > > spin?
                                    > >
                                    > > When was the RESA org. first created?
                                    > >
                                    > > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                                    > > and Why?
                                    > >
                                    > > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                                    > > the Mahanta?"
                                    > >
                                    > > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
                                    > >
                                    > > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                                    > > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                                    > > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                                    > > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                                    > > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                                    > > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                                    > > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                                    > > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
                                    > >
                                    > > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                                    > > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                                    > > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                                    > > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                                    > > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                                    > > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                                    > > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                                    > > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                                    > > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                                    > > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > pjr_sr wrote:
                                    > > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm
                                    wondering
                                    > > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                                    > > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely
                                    at
                                    > > something and missing the bigger picture.
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would
                                    see
                                    > > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                                    > > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                                    > > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his
                                    own
                                    > > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                                    > > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
                                    > >
                                    > > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp
                                    has
                                    > > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                                    > > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                                    > > other spiritual/religious principles.
                                    > >
                                    > > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab,
                                    since
                                    > > you said you are interested in researching and compiling
                                    Eckankar's
                                    > > record, then you could help out here.
                                    > >
                                    > > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
                                    > >
                                    > > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in
                                    all
                                    > > the universes.
                                    > >
                                    > > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with
                                    each
                                    > > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                                    > > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with
                                    you."
                                    > >
                                    > > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                                    > > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
                                    > >
                                    > > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar),
                                    thus
                                    > > making it the main focus for eckists.
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                                    > > and then we could examine each.
                                    > >
                                    > > Regards
                                    > > Liska
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > mishmisha9@wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                                    > > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                                    > > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                                    > > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                                    > > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                                    > > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                                    > > > point that out.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                                    > > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                                    > > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                                    > > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                                    > > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                                    > > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                                    > > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                                    > > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                                    > > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Mish
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > drubezarne@wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another
                                    of
                                    > the 3
                                    > > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                                    > > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
                                    > rid of
                                    > > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked
                                    by the
                                    > > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years
                                    before
                                    > > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of
                                    Eck
                                    > > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't
                                    ready
                                    > for it
                                    > > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's
                                    how he
                                    > > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
                                    > to the
                                    > > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is
                                    higher up on
                                    > > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
                                    > say that
                                    > > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today
                                    holds a
                                    > > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only
                                    declares
                                    > > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta
                                    mantle,
                                    > but he
                                    > > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
                                    > master.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to
                                    Darwin
                                    > > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot
                                    while
                                    > > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how
                                    he was
                                    > > > > just another delusional eckist.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once
                                    all the
                                    > > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a
                                    great
                                    > > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Regards
                                    > > > > Liska
                                    > > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Hi Liska,
                                    > > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                                    > > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                                    > > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                                    > > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                                    > > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                                    > > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                                    > > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                                    > > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                                    > > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                                    > > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                                    > > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                                    > > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                                    > > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                                    > > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                                    > > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                                    > > > > > on his behalf.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                                    > > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                                    > > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                                    > > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                                    > > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                                    > > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                                    > > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                                    > > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                                    > > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                                    > > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                                    > > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                                    > > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                                    > > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                                    > > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                                    > > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                                    > > > > > Darwin Gross.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                                    > > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                                    > > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Prometheus
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Liska wrote:
                                    > > > > > Prometheus,
                                    > > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                                    > > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                                    > > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                                    > > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                                    > > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                                    > > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                                    > > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                                    > > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                                    > > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                                    > > > > > Master.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                                    > > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                                    > > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                                    > > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                                    > > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                                    > > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                                    > > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                                    > > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                                    > > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                                    > > > > > Third Series, p 76).
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                                    > > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                                    > > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                                    > > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                                    > > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                                    > > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                                    > > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                                    > > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                                    > > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                                    > > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                                    > > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                                    > > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                                    > > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                                    > > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                                    > > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                                    > > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                                    > > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                                    > > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                                    > > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                                    > > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                                    > > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                                    > > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                                    > > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                                    > > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                                    > > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                                    > > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                                    > > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                                    > > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Regards
                                    > > > > > Liska
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                                    > > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                                    > > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                                    > > > > > > get together with family and friends
                                    > > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                                    > > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
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