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Excerpts From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Everyone, These quotes are from another person s notes listening to Klemp s Seminar talk, thus, these notes (if not word for word) do provide the proper
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 14, 2008
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      Hello Everyone,
      These quotes are from another person's
      notes listening to Klemp's Seminar talk,
      thus, these notes (if not word for word)
      do provide the proper context of what HK
      was saying.

      ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

      HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
      gears just as various groups of people do.
      These things, like the economic crisis and
      wars, don't just happen. They are caused
      by people acting as Unconscious Agents
      of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
      a process of purification involved with shifting
      gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
      or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
      there, are there because the people of that
      country have things to learn."

      ***

      While looking at Twitchell's 1969 Copyright
      of The Flute of God I saw what looked to be
      a different perspective than what Klemp gave.

      From "The Flute of God" pages 7 & 13:

      "There are individuals living upon this earth
      who are centuries old. THERE IS SAID to be
      one, a woman, who is supposedly a MILLION
      YEARS OLD. Her purpose for living is DESTRUCTION,
      and for that reason SHE PASSES FROM ONE
      NATION TO ANOTHER CREATING HAVOC
      WHEREVER SHE GOES. She is known by many
      names. In India they call her Kali, the mother
      goddess, the goddess of destruction."

      "If Soul is the effect of something, then It must
      always change this, take the initiative and become
      cause. That and that alone! Soul can always be
      cause, can take care of Itself. Of course, It can
      be effect, but It must be knowing effect, never
      unknowing. Always look at life this way."

      So, is Klemp's 2008 Seminar message just
      a rehash reflecting PT's consciousness from
      49 years ago? Actually, Klemp's consciousness
      appears Lower than Paul's. Compare it for yourself!

      Prometheus
      p.s. Notice that Twit states, "There is SAID to be a
      woman.. a million years old." But, with the thousand
      year old EK Masters PT leaves out the "said." See how
      easy it is to create lies and a scam! Besides, the story
      of Kali is just another religious Myth to explain life
      and death and destruction just as Klemp does as he
      mimics others.
    • drubezarne
      HK s outer directed focus continues. Note how his attention is placed on the Kal again. We could ask ourselves, why does someone who claims to be God Realized
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 15, 2008
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        HK's outer directed focus continues. Note how his attention is placed
        on the Kal again. We could ask ourselves, why does someone who claims
        to be God Realized and the incarnation of God on earth and in all the
        universes spend so much time talking about the devil? Does he even
        have a clue what people living under different governments are
        supposed to learn? It's easy to come up with platitudes, but why not
        offer some reasons for why something is what it is? Purification is a
        stock phrase that can be used in conjunction with anything.

        Liska

        >
        > ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:
        >
        > HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
        > gears just as various groups of people do.
        > These things, like the economic crisis and
        > wars, don't just happen. They are caused
        > by people acting as Unconscious Agents
        > of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
        > a process of purification involved with shifting
        > gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
        > or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
        > there, are there because the people of that
        > country have things to learn."
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Liska and All, It seems that Klemp is always thinking he needs to remind ECKists of their basic beliefs! It does make for a simplified talk that requires
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 15, 2008
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          Hello Liska and All,
          It seems that Klemp is always
          thinking he needs to remind ECKists
          of their basic beliefs! It does make
          for a simplified talk that requires
          minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
          getting tired of Klemp talking down
          to them? What happened to Higher
          Consciousness? Has it come down
          to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

          The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
          that Physical Experience and the
          burning off of Karma results in the
          (eventual) purification of Soul.

          However, Initiation helps to speedup
          this burn-off process. Thus, being
          "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
          supposedly, key in speeding up this
          process of more rapidly burning off
          of Karma with "inner" experiences
          and via the "Master" taking on some
          of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
          Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
          leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
          of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

          I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
          (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
          Temple, but it has the potential due
          to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
          games being played. Let's face it--the
          disenfranchised are attracted to religions
          like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
          can become the Living God!

          Prometheus

          Liska wrote:
          HK's outer directed focus continues.
          Note how his attention is placed
          on the Kal again. We could ask
          ourselves, why does someone who
          claims to be God Realized and the
          incarnation of God on earth and in
          all the universes spend so much time
          talking about the devil? Does he even
          have a clue what people living under
          different governments are supposed
          to learn? It's easy to come up with
          platitudes, but why not offer some
          reasons for why something is what
          it is? Purification is a stock phrase
          that can be used in conjunction with
          anything.

          Liska

          Prometheus wrote:

          ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

          HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
          gears just as various groups of people do.
          These things, like the economic crisis and
          wars, don't just happen. They are caused
          by people acting as Unconscious Agents
          of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
          a process of purification involved with shifting
          gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
          or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
          there, are there because the people of that
          country have things to learn."
        • prometheus_973
          Klemp stated, We don t recruit people. We are simply here when people are ready for the teachings. Now why then is so much time, money, and service is
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 16, 2008
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            Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
            We are simply here when people are
            ready for the teachings."

            Now why then is so much time, money,
            and service is focused upon if this statement
            was true? Why is there a spiritual year
            called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
            this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
            and have so much focus "geared" to the
            publicity and promotion of ECKankar
            VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
            the Consciousness of long-time current
            (paying) members by handing out more
            and Higher Initiations if that statement
            was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

            FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
            it always happens when he opens his mouth
            and words come out. And I've noticed that
            HK's crooked little smile will either come before
            or after the lies.

            Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
            as he did last year, that "all of the names
            I use for the characters in my stories are
            fictitious. I use a book of names written for
            writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
            names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
            names."

            Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
            But, since he brought up the topic of novels
            and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
            fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
            a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
            has taken him since he's the one who pointed
            it out.

            Of course EKies will see this differently
            and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
            Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
            and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
            due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
            Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

            HK also stated that, "I like to be around
            other people [really?] and the ECK touches
            them in some way but I don't try to control
            It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
            ECKists!

            But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
            and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
            be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
            The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
            as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
            stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
            he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
            Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
            poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
            important even though they are of the Mental
            (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
            aura when around others. His aura will just
            dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
            of those he meets at the grocery store and
            other public places!

            And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
            is not only using fictitious names, because
            he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
            the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
            BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

            Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
            who write "Novels" (fiction).

            I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
            and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
            right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
            I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
            subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
            why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
            afterwards.

            After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
            that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
            to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
            because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
            (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
            contemplate and regain my balance and my
            independence as Soul. However, there is a
            greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
            they call ECKankar.

            More excerpts later--

            Prometheus


            Prometheus wrote:
            It seems that Klemp is always
            thinking he needs to remind ECKists
            of their basic beliefs! It does make
            for a simplified talk that requires
            minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
            getting tired of Klemp talking down
            to them? What happened to Higher
            Consciousness? Has it come down
            to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

            The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
            that Physical Experience and the
            burning off of Karma results in the
            (eventual) purification of Soul.

            However, Initiation helps to speedup
            this burn-off process. Thus, being
            "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
            supposedly, key in speeding up this
            process of more rapidly burning off
            of Karma with "inner" experiences
            and via the "Master" taking on some
            of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
            Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
            leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
            of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

            I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
            (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
            Temple, but it has the potential due
            to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
            games being played. Let's face it--the
            disenfranchised are attracted to religions
            like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
            can become the Living God!

            Prometheus

            Liska wrote:
            HK's outer directed focus continues.
            Note how his attention is placed
            on the Kal again. We could ask
            ourselves, why does someone who
            claims to be God Realized and the
            incarnation of God on earth and in
            all the universes spend so much time
            talking about the devil? Does he even
            have a clue what people living under
            different governments are supposed
            to learn? It's easy to come up with
            platitudes, but why not offer some
            reasons for why something is what
            it is? Purification is a stock phrase
            that can be used in conjunction with
            anything.

            Liska

            Prometheus wrote:

            ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

            HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
            gears just as various groups of people do.
            These things, like the economic crisis and
            wars, don't just happen. They are caused
            by people acting as Unconscious Agents
            of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
            a process of purification involved with shifting
            gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
            or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
            there, are there because the people of that
            country have things to learn."
          • Non ekster
            Yes, the lies Klmep spews make you sick, but mostly for the ones who still force feed themselves that absolute nonsense. It s interesting that pathological
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 16, 2008
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              Yes, the lies Klmep spews make you sick, but mostly for the ones who
              still force feed themselves that absolute nonsense. It's interesting
              that pathological liars often do tell their victims in some way that
              they are lying to them. That way, the liar doesn't have to feel guilty
              for deceiving others. It's too bad, but CONS like KLEMP really do
              cause harm, and like a child with abusive parents, often it does take
              some therapy to get over it, and the abused child does not want to
              believe the obvious about the abuse as it can be very painful at
              first, but it is better than living a lie.

              Non ekster ; ) Take Care

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
              > We are simply here when people are
              > ready for the teachings."
              >
              > Now why then is so much time, money,
              > and service is focused upon if this statement
              > was true? Why is there a spiritual year
              > called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
              > this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
              > and have so much focus "geared" to the
              > publicity and promotion of ECKankar
              > VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
              > the Consciousness of long-time current
              > (paying) members by handing out more
              > and Higher Initiations if that statement
              > was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!
              >
              > FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
              > it always happens when he opens his mouth
              > and words come out. And I've noticed that
              > HK's crooked little smile will either come before
              > or after the lies.
              >
              > Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
              > as he did last year, that "all of the names
              > I use for the characters in my stories are
              > fictitious. I use a book of names written for
              > writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
              > names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
              > names."
              >
              > Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
              > But, since he brought up the topic of novels
              > and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
              > fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
              > a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
              > has taken him since he's the one who pointed
              > it out.
              >
              > Of course EKies will see this differently
              > and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
              > Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
              > and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
              > due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
              > Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!
              >
              > HK also stated that, "I like to be around
              > other people [really?] and the ECK touches
              > them in some way but I don't try to control
              > It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
              > ECKists!
              >
              > But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
              > and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
              > be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
              > The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
              > as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
              > stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
              > he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
              > Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
              > poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
              > important even though they are of the Mental
              > (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
              > aura when around others. His aura will just
              > dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
              > of those he meets at the grocery store and
              > other public places!
              >
              > And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
              > is not only using fictitious names, because
              > he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
              > the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
              > BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"
              >
              > Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
              > who write "Novels" (fiction).
              >
              > I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
              > and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
              > right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
              > I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
              > subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
              > why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
              > afterwards.
              >
              > After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
              > that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
              > to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
              > because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
              > (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
              > contemplate and regain my balance and my
              > independence as Soul. However, there is a
              > greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
              > they call ECKankar.
              >
              > More excerpts later--
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > Prometheus wrote:
              > It seems that Klemp is always
              > thinking he needs to remind ECKists
              > of their basic beliefs! It does make
              > for a simplified talk that requires
              > minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
              > getting tired of Klemp talking down
              > to them? What happened to Higher
              > Consciousness? Has it come down
              > to this redundant crap? Apparently so!
              >
              > The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
              > that Physical Experience and the
              > burning off of Karma results in the
              > (eventual) purification of Soul.
              >
              > However, Initiation helps to speedup
              > this burn-off process. Thus, being
              > "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
              > supposedly, key in speeding up this
              > process of more rapidly burning off
              > of Karma with "inner" experiences
              > and via the "Master" taking on some
              > of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
              > Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
              > leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
              > of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!
              >
              > I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
              > (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
              > Temple, but it has the potential due
              > to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
              > games being played. Let's face it--the
              > disenfranchised are attracted to religions
              > like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
              > can become the Living God!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > Liska wrote:
              > HK's outer directed focus continues.
              > Note how his attention is placed
              > on the Kal again. We could ask
              > ourselves, why does someone who
              > claims to be God Realized and the
              > incarnation of God on earth and in
              > all the universes spend so much time
              > talking about the devil? Does he even
              > have a clue what people living under
              > different governments are supposed
              > to learn? It's easy to come up with
              > platitudes, but why not offer some
              > reasons for why something is what
              > it is? Purification is a stock phrase
              > that can be used in conjunction with
              > anything.
              >
              > Liska
              >
              > Prometheus wrote:
              >
              > ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:
              >
              > HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
              > gears just as various groups of people do.
              > These things, like the economic crisis and
              > wars, don't just happen. They are caused
              > by people acting as Unconscious Agents
              > of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
              > a process of purification involved with shifting
              > gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
              > or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
              > there, are there because the people of that
              > country have things to learn."
              >
            • drubezarne
              Eckists basically live in a spiritual vacuum. When they allow their Master Harold Klemp to be their sole fountain of knowledge along with Paul Twitchell s
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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                Eckists basically live in a spiritual vacuum. When they allow their
                Master Harold Klemp to be their sole fountain of knowledge along with
                Paul Twitchell's writings, they are basically living in a void. In the
                absence of comparison, how can they see that they have been lied to?

                Many of us who managed to break away from this insular existence
                called Eckankar have gained a more expansive viewpoint of life. We're
                finally able to see through the lies spread by those 3 charlatans
                (Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp) calling themselves Masters.

                We're not afraid to read works by other authors who have a different
                viewpoint than Eckankar's dogma. In the process, we've found works by
                authors who have more honest and profound views of life than the ones
                championed by the three Eckankar impostors. Living outside a spiritual
                vacuum makes one realize how shallow and dishonest Klemp's words are.
                Check it out for yourself. Here's a writer who makes Klemp's
                philosophy sound like that of a halfwit.

                The writer's name is Henry T. Laurency. You can download his books for
                free in .pdf format here...

                http://www.laurency.com/

                Regards
                Liska



                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non ekster"
                <eckchains@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes, the lies Klmep spews make you sick, but mostly for the ones who
                > still force feed themselves that absolute nonsense. It's interesting
                > that pathological liars often do tell their victims in some way that
                > they are lying to them. That way, the liar doesn't have to feel guilty
                > for deceiving others. It's too bad, but CONS like KLEMP really do
                > cause harm, and like a child with abusive parents, often it does take
                > some therapy to get over it, and the abused child does not want to
                > believe the obvious about the abuse as it can be very painful at
                > first, but it is better than living a lie.
                >
                > Non ekster ; ) Take Care
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
                > > We are simply here when people are
                > > ready for the teachings."
                > >
                > > Now why then is so much time, money,
                > > and service is focused upon if this statement
                > > was true? Why is there a spiritual year
                > > called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
                > > this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
                > > and have so much focus "geared" to the
                > > publicity and promotion of ECKankar
                > > VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
                > > the Consciousness of long-time current
                > > (paying) members by handing out more
                > > and Higher Initiations if that statement
                > > was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!
                > >
                > > FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
                > > it always happens when he opens his mouth
                > > and words come out. And I've noticed that
                > > HK's crooked little smile will either come before
                > > or after the lies.
              • prometheus_973
                It s not really all that surprising that someone as nasty as Klemp can t forgive Darwin! However, one would think that HK would act the part as if he was a
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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                  It's not really all that surprising that
                  someone as nasty as Klemp can't forgive
                  Darwin! However, one would think that
                  HK would act the part "as if" he was
                  a compassionate and loving Master.
                  But, this wasn't so! However, this goes
                  to show (as proof) that Klemp is a
                  narcissist because they can never
                  apologize or forgive.

                  Instead, Klemp mentioned Paul Newman's
                  death and made some "telling" remarks
                  once again!

                  With Klemp one has to read between the
                  lines and look at what he didn't say or
                  could have/should have said. His talks
                  and writings are way too simple with no
                  spiritual meat and leave a lot of room for
                  ECKists to fill-in the blanks, second guess,
                  and to imagine anything they want.
                  This is how HK can be all things for all
                  people. Jim Jones used a similar technique.


                  HK: "Paul Newman, who recently died, didn't
                  care how he aged. And the proceeds from the
                  sale of his salad dressing line went to charity."


                  Hmmmm... Newman "didn't care how he aged."
                  I wonder if Klemp isn't looking at himself and
                  his own aging process! Maybe he read what we
                  said about that photo of his wrinkled old "Gaze"
                  that he's selling!

                  Of course, Klemp understated Newman's
                  product line since almost all of us know that
                  it's more than just a "salad dressing line!"
                  And, the "charity" that the money goes to is
                  The Hole In The Wall Gang. Why not mention
                  the charity by name since HK mentioned Paul
                  Newman by name? Does Klemp support any
                  charity? Maybe Klemp didn't want to endorse
                  this charity because it could divert money away
                  from ECKankar and his income (charity).

                  Okay, let's get back to Darwin Gross the 972nd
                  LEM/Mahanta who died in March 2008. Did any
                  long-time (30 year plus) ECKists ever care for
                  Darwin? I really liked him! He gave me a couple
                  or so initiations and I know that DG gave others
                  a bunch of initiations, and some even skipped
                  initiations. Klemp, later, made some of these same
                  people RESAs. So, it doesn't seem like skipping
                  initiations or having a 4th for a few months before
                  getting the 5th was any big deal after all.

                  And, didn't Darwin give Klemp get some Higher
                  Initiations rather fast? Sure he did! Klemp got
                  his 8th in June of 1980 and his 9th in June of
                  1981 and his 12th in Oct. of 1981! That means
                  that Darwin gave Klemp the 10th, and 11th
                  Initiations between June and October of 1981!

                  And now, after Darwin had done so much for
                  Klemp and Company, via the Initiation process
                  as their LEM/Mahanta and Inner Master, there
                  is nothing said of his passing/translation! What's
                  wrong with this picture? If it wasn't for Darwin
                  Klemp wouldn't be the LEM, and ECKists wouldn't
                  be giving Harry all of those accolades and Klemp
                  wouldn't be having his crappy books printed!

                  Klemp owes Darwin everything... all that he is
                  and has! And still, there is nothing said. Klemp
                  is truly a mean spirited and nasty little man.
                  This is proof beyond reproach that Klemp is
                  Not a Master and that he is Not even beyond
                  the Astral Plane of Consciousness! This is not
                  how a "Master" behaves!

                  Prometheus



                  Liska wrote:
                  Eckists basically live in a spiritual vacuum.
                  When they allow their Master Harold Klemp
                  to be their sole fountain of knowledge along
                  with Paul Twitchell's writings, they are basically
                  living in a void. In the absence of comparison,
                  how can they see that they have been lied to?

                  Many of us who managed to break away
                  from this insular existence called Eckankar
                  have gained a more expansive viewpoint
                  of life. We're finally able to see through the
                  lies spread by those 3 charlatans (Twitchell,
                  Gross, and Klemp) calling themselves Masters.

                  We're not afraid to read works by other authors
                  who have a different viewpoint than Eckankar's
                  dogma. In the process, we've found works by
                  authors who have more honest and profound
                  views of life than the ones championed by the
                  three Eckankar impostors. Living outside a spiritual
                  vacuum makes one realize how shallow and
                  dishonest Klemp's words are. Check it out for
                  yourself. Here's a writer who makes Klemp's
                  philosophy sound like that of a halfwit.

                  The writer's name is Henry T. Laurency. You
                  can download his books for
                  free in .pdf format here...

                  http://www.laurency.com/

                  Regards
                  Liska
                • prometheus_973
                  Here Klemp talks about his EMR problems (etc) as he continues to use his scare tacticts on ECKists to keep them away from the Internet. Please comment on the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 17, 2008
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                    Here Klemp talks about his EMR problems
                    (etc) as he continues to use his scare
                    tacticts on ECKists to keep them away
                    from the Internet.

                    Please comment on the following:

                    HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
                    chair with my radio and books nearby.
                    I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
                    for information.

                    This is because my sensitivity to electromagnetic
                    frequencies makes it impossible for me
                    to use a computer."

                    Klemp also mentioned that "those who
                    go online are often overwhelmed by
                    information."

                    And, "many ECKists send things for me
                    to try out and some work while others
                    don't, but I've built up my stamina.
                    Things were rough for a few years but
                    are smoothing out now.

                    It seems when doctors see new symptoms
                    they get frightened, but things keep
                    changing and you just have to learn to
                    adapt." [end]

                    Prometheus



                    Prometheus wrote:
                    Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
                    We are simply here when people are
                    ready for the teachings."

                    Now why then is so much time, money,
                    and service is focused upon if this statement
                    was true? Why is there a spiritual year
                    called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
                    this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
                    and have so much focus "geared" to the
                    publicity and promotion of ECKankar
                    VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
                    the Consciousness of long-time current
                    (paying) members by handing out more
                    and Higher Initiations if that statement
                    was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

                    FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
                    it always happens when he opens his mouth
                    and words come out. And I've noticed that
                    HK's crooked little smile will either come before
                    or after the lies.

                    Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
                    as he did last year, that "all of the names
                    I use for the characters in my stories are
                    fictitious. I use a book of names written for
                    writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
                    names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
                    names."

                    Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
                    But, since he brought up the topic of novels
                    and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
                    fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
                    a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
                    has taken him since he's the one who pointed
                    it out.

                    Of course EKies will see this differently
                    and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
                    Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
                    and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
                    due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
                    Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

                    HK also stated that, "I like to be around
                    other people [really?] and the ECK touches
                    them in some way but I don't try to control
                    It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
                    ECKists!

                    But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
                    and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
                    be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
                    The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
                    as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
                    stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
                    he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
                    Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
                    poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
                    important even though they are of the Mental
                    (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
                    aura when around others. His aura will just
                    dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
                    of those he meets at the grocery store and
                    other public places!

                    And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
                    is not only using fictitious names, because
                    he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
                    the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
                    BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

                    Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
                    who write "Novels" (fiction).

                    I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
                    and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
                    right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
                    I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
                    subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
                    why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
                    afterwards.

                    After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
                    that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
                    to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
                    because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
                    (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
                    contemplate and regain my balance and my
                    independence as Soul. However, there is a
                    greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
                    they call ECKankar.

                    More excerpts later--

                    Prometheus


                    Prometheus wrote:
                    It seems that Klemp is always
                    thinking he needs to remind ECKists
                    of their basic beliefs! It does make
                    for a simplified talk that requires
                    minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
                    getting tired of Klemp talking down
                    to them? What happened to Higher
                    Consciousness? Has it come down
                    to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

                    The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
                    that Physical Experience and the
                    burning off of Karma results in the
                    (eventual) purification of Soul.

                    However, Initiation helps to speedup
                    this burn-off process. Thus, being
                    "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
                    supposedly, key in speeding up this
                    process of more rapidly burning off
                    of Karma with "inner" experiences
                    and via the "Master" taking on some
                    of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
                    Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
                    leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
                    of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

                    I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
                    (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
                    Temple, but it has the potential due
                    to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
                    games being played. Let's face it--the
                    disenfranchised are attracted to religions
                    like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
                    can become the Living God!

                    Prometheus

                    Liska wrote:
                    HK's outer directed focus continues.
                    Note how his attention is placed
                    on the Kal again. We could ask
                    ourselves, why does someone who
                    claims to be God Realized and the
                    incarnation of God on earth and in
                    all the universes spend so much time
                    talking about the devil? Does he even
                    have a clue what people living under
                    different governments are supposed
                    to learn? It's easy to come up with
                    platitudes, but why not offer some
                    reasons for why something is what
                    it is? Purification is a stock phrase
                    that can be used in conjunction with
                    anything.

                    Liska

                    Prometheus wrote:

                    ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

                    HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
                    gears just as various groups of people do.
                    These things, like the economic crisis and
                    wars, don't just happen. They are caused
                    by people acting as Unconscious Agents
                    of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
                    a process of purification involved with shifting
                    gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
                    or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
                    there, are there because the people of that
                    country have things to learn."
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, I thought that I d give my insights and comment more on Klemp s talk. *** HK: I work at home and sit in a rocking chair with my radio and books
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 19, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      I thought that I'd give my insights
                      and comment more on Klemp's talk.

                      ***

                      HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
                      chair with my radio and books nearby.
                      I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
                      for information."

                      *ME: Yes, Harold has a job where he
                      "works" at home. Actually, Klemp's
                      been retired for a number of years.
                      Writing books is more like a hobby
                      for him. ECKists should kick Klemp
                      to the curb. This is the 21st Century
                      and Master Klemp is sitting in a rocking
                      chair listening to talk shows like Paul
                      Harvey and Rush while reading the
                      dictionary! I'm sure the Boring EK Master
                      does do this at times... when he's not
                      on the Internet or yelling at Joan to
                      be quiet and stop talking!

                      HK: "This is because my sensitivity to
                      electromagnetic frequencies makes
                      it impossible for me to use a computer."

                      *ME: What a load of Bullshit! They don't
                      even make CRT's anymore do they?
                      Klemp is taking a two prong approach.
                      One prong is to keep ECKists away from
                      the Internet and the other is to have an
                      excuse for his illnesses while, also, making
                      it seem that he doesn't use a computer
                      to do research or to read this site.

                      HK: "...those who go online are often
                      overwhelmed by information."

                      *ME: That sounds like a person who
                      goes online to do research! LOL! Klemp
                      reminds me of Dubya or Palin at times.
                      He just can't help what comes out of
                      his mouth. Not all of his chelas are
                      mindless, brain-washed and stupid.
                      There are some chelas that now realize
                      they've been duped and short-changed!

                      HK: "... many ECKists send things
                      for me to try out and some work
                      while others don't, but I've built up
                      my stamina. Things were rough for
                      a few years but are smoothing out now."

                      *ME: Wait a minute! Why wouldn't the
                      Mahanta Consciousness "KNOW" what
                      would work and what wouldn't? And,
                      why would the Mahanta need others
                      who are of what level of consciousness
                      (the 7th or lower) to send remedies to
                      the 14th Plane "Full" Mahanta! That doesn't
                      make sense does it? That's because Klemp
                      isn't who and what he claims to be! It's
                      obvious! Look at what Klemp said!!!
                      Anyone who is of the Highest Consciousness
                      of all Planes and all universes would "KNOW."
                      This is like sending GOD a remedy because
                      HE gets sick and needs "our" help in knowing
                      what to do to get better! LOL! Is this thinking
                      stupid or what?

                      HK: "It seems when doctors see new
                      symptoms they get frightened, but things
                      keep changing and you just have to learn
                      to adapt." [end]

                      *ME: No! That's not how it works and
                      anyone with some common sense knows
                      this! Doctors don't get "frightened" when
                      they see a patient with "new symptoms"
                      unless the doctor is a quack!

                      The patient is the one who might be
                      alarmed or "frightened" not the doctor!

                      I'm thinking that Klemp wouldn't have
                      said this unless he's the one that had
                      been "frightened" by a new symptom
                      that he reported to the doctor. And that
                      the doctor needed to "change" Klemp's
                      medication.

                      Of course, Klemp should have stopped
                      using the medication when he noticed
                      "new symptoms" or what might have been
                      side effects of the medication. People just
                      have to weigh whether or not the side effects
                      of medication are all that bad when considering
                      living with the effects of their disease.

                      In any case, upon closer analysis of what
                      Klemp has said, it is clear that Klemp is
                      a fraud and should have stepped down
                      15 years ago! Unfortunately, it looks like
                      he's staying for 10 more years for a total
                      of 3 Twelve Year Cycles, or until his death!
                      Klemp, it would seem, wants to take ECKankar
                      to the grave with him! What a narcissist!

                      Prometheus



                      Prometheus wrote:
                      Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
                      We are simply here when people are
                      ready for the teachings."

                      Now why then is so much time, money,
                      and service is focused upon if this statement
                      was true? Why is there a spiritual year
                      called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
                      this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
                      and have so much focus "geared" to the
                      publicity and promotion of ECKankar
                      VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
                      the Consciousness of long-time current
                      (paying) members by handing out more
                      and Higher Initiations if that statement
                      was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

                      FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
                      it always happens when he opens his mouth
                      and words come out. And I've noticed that
                      HK's crooked little smile will either come before
                      or after the lies.

                      Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
                      as he did last year, that "all of the names
                      I use for the characters in my stories are
                      fictitious. I use a book of names written for
                      writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
                      names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
                      names."

                      Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
                      But, since he brought up the topic of novels
                      and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
                      fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
                      a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
                      has taken him since he's the one who pointed
                      it out.

                      Of course EKies will see this differently
                      and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
                      Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
                      and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
                      due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
                      Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

                      HK also stated that, "I like to be around
                      other people [really?] and the ECK touches
                      them in some way but I don't try to control
                      It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
                      ECKists!

                      But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
                      and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
                      be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
                      The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
                      as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
                      stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
                      he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
                      Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
                      poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
                      important even though they are of the Mental
                      (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
                      aura when around others. His aura will just
                      dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
                      of those he meets at the grocery store and
                      other public places!

                      And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
                      is not only using fictitious names, because
                      he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
                      the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
                      BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

                      Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
                      who write "Novels" (fiction).

                      I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
                      and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
                      right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
                      I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
                      subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
                      why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
                      afterwards.

                      After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
                      that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
                      to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
                      because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
                      (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
                      contemplate and regain my balance and my
                      independence as Soul. However, there is a
                      greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
                      they call ECKankar.

                      More excerpts later--

                      Prometheus


                      Prometheus wrote:
                      It seems that Klemp is always
                      thinking he needs to remind ECKists
                      of their basic beliefs! It does make
                      for a simplified talk that requires
                      minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
                      getting tired of Klemp talking down
                      to them? What happened to Higher
                      Consciousness? Has it come down
                      to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

                      The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
                      that Physical Experience and the
                      burning off of Karma results in the
                      (eventual) purification of Soul.

                      However, Initiation helps to speedup
                      this burn-off process. Thus, being
                      "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
                      supposedly, key in speeding up this
                      process of more rapidly burning off
                      of Karma with "inner" experiences
                      and via the "Master" taking on some
                      of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
                      Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
                      leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
                      of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

                      I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
                      (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
                      Temple, but it has the potential due
                      to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
                      games being played. Let's face it--the
                      disenfranchised are attracted to religions
                      like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
                      can become the Living God!

                      Prometheus

                      Liska wrote:
                      HK's outer directed focus continues.
                      Note how his attention is placed
                      on the Kal again. We could ask
                      ourselves, why does someone who
                      claims to be God Realized and the
                      incarnation of God on earth and in
                      all the universes spend so much time
                      talking about the devil? Does he even
                      have a clue what people living under
                      different governments are supposed
                      to learn? It's easy to come up with
                      platitudes, but why not offer some
                      reasons for why something is what
                      it is? Purification is a stock phrase
                      that can be used in conjunction with
                      anything.

                      Liska

                      Prometheus wrote:

                      ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

                      HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
                      gears just as various groups of people do.
                      These things, like the economic crisis and
                      wars, don't just happen. They are caused
                      by people acting as Unconscious Agents
                      of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
                      a process of purification involved with shifting
                      gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
                      or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
                      there, are there because the people of that
                      country have things to learn."
                    • prometheus_973
                      Klemp mentions Thanksgiving and that, I like it because there s no obligation to buy gifts... People get together with family and friends to have a good time
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 26, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                        and that, "I like it because there's
                        no obligation to buy gifts... People
                        get together with family and friends
                        to have a good time and it's a time
                        to be grateful for our blessings."

                        Maybe the Klemps will be driving
                        over to the Appleton, Wisconsin
                        area to have Thanksgiving with Harry's
                        brother and other family members?
                        Who knows maybe HK's sister might
                        fly in from the west coast. I wonder
                        if Harry would spend the money to
                        fly his daughter and 3 grandkids in?

                        This is a better holiday for Harry because
                        he doesn't have to shop and buy gifts!
                        I doubt if Harry and Joan see anyone
                        during Christmas. They might even
                        take a cruise, or stay at Peter's house
                        in the Tampa area.

                        However, Klemp's comments only
                        state the obvious. Yes, it is a time
                        that many people in the U.S. to get
                        together with family and friends in
                        order to show gratitude and to give
                        thanks for what they have. However,
                        people should give thanks everyday.

                        MORE PROOF that Klemp is Not
                        an ECK Master:

                        I'm still disappointed with Klemp
                        for not having mentioned Darwin's
                        death and for not taking a moment
                        to say something nice about him.

                        Why mention Paul Newman's death
                        in his 2008 EWWS talk and not Darwin
                        Gross'?

                        Darwin gave Klemp his highest initiations
                        and handed him the LEM position in 1981!

                        This is just more proof that Klemp is
                        mean-spirited and lacks compassion
                        and love. Klemp's inaction and omission
                        of mentioning Darwin shows that he is
                        still holding a grudge (anger and hatred)
                        and this is proof that HK cannot be an
                        ECK Master and Mahanta! ECK Masters
                        are supposed to be above the fray, but
                        Klemp has proven that he is not! This
                        was a sin of omission by a narcissist,
                        and a KAL agent!

                        Klemp fell from Grace years ago and
                        has a death grip on his position of
                        power and prestige. This is attachment!

                        Many ECKists can see this, but are
                        fearful to say anything. Besides, who
                        can they complain to? Everyone knows
                        that people are blacklisted on initiations
                        and positions if they complain or say
                        too much. And, the EK Board is powerless
                        to do anything because of the way in
                        which Klemp restructured the org. after
                        he kicked Darwin to the curb. The Mahanta
                        now has sole authority over the president
                        (and LEM) whereas before (with Darwin)
                        this was not the case. This is also why
                        Klemp was trying to make it seem that
                        Darwin was Not a Mahanta.

                        How could/would a 12th depose a FULL
                        14th Mahanta! He can't according to EK
                        Dogma and, thereby, by law (in case there
                        was an appeal). Thus, HK had to make two
                        claims about Darwin: 1.) Darwin was never
                        a 14th FULL Mahanta 2.) Darwin fell from
                        Grace and was kicked out of the Vairagi Order,
                        but only HK (a living 12th) would know this!

                        Yet, 8th initiate Tom Flamma stated (in his
                        book) that Darwin was the Mahanta and HK
                        gave validity to Flamma for his prophecy of
                        the next LEM told to a group of men.

                        BTW- Did Klemp ever write or say (early
                        on) that Darwin was the Mahanta?

                        Prometheus

                        Prometheus wrote:
                        I thought that I'd give my insights
                        and comment more on Klemp's talk.

                        ***

                        HK: "I work at home and sit in a rocking
                        chair with my radio and books nearby.
                        I'll use a dictionary and encyclopedias
                        for information."

                        *ME: Yes, Harold has a job where he
                        "works" at home. Actually, Klemp's
                        been retired for a number of years.
                        Writing books is more like a hobby
                        for him. ECKists should kick Klemp
                        to the curb. This is the 21st Century
                        and Master Klemp is sitting in a rocking
                        chair listening to talk shows like Paul
                        Harvey and Rush while reading the
                        dictionary! I'm sure the Boring EK Master
                        does do this at times... when he's not
                        on the Internet or yelling at Joan to
                        be quiet and stop talking!

                        HK: "This is because my sensitivity to
                        electromagnetic frequencies makes
                        it impossible for me to use a computer."

                        *ME: What a load of Bullshit! They don't
                        even make CRT's anymore do they?
                        Klemp is taking a two prong approach.
                        One prong is to keep ECKists away from
                        the Internet and the other is to have an
                        excuse for his illnesses while, also, making
                        it seem that he doesn't use a computer
                        to do research or to read this site.

                        HK: "...those who go online are often
                        overwhelmed by information."

                        *ME: That sounds like a person who
                        goes online to do research! LOL! Klemp
                        reminds me of Dubya or Palin at times.
                        He just can't help what comes out of
                        his mouth. Not all of his chelas are
                        mindless, brain-washed and stupid.
                        There are some chelas that now realize
                        they've been duped and short-changed!

                        HK: "... many ECKists send things
                        for me to try out and some work
                        while others don't, but I've built up
                        my stamina. Things were rough for
                        a few years but are smoothing out now."

                        *ME: Wait a minute! Why wouldn't the
                        Mahanta Consciousness "KNOW" what
                        would work and what wouldn't? And,
                        why would the Mahanta need others
                        who are of what level of consciousness
                        (the 7th or lower) to send remedies to
                        the 14th Plane "Full" Mahanta! That doesn't
                        make sense does it? That's because Klemp
                        isn't who and what he claims to be! It's
                        obvious! Look at what Klemp said!!!
                        Anyone who is of the Highest Consciousness
                        of all Planes and all universes would "KNOW."
                        This is like sending GOD a remedy because
                        HE gets sick and needs "our" help in knowing
                        what to do to get better! LOL! Is this thinking
                        stupid or what?

                        HK: "It seems when doctors see new
                        symptoms they get frightened, but things
                        keep changing and you just have to learn
                        to adapt." [end]

                        *ME: No! That's not how it works and
                        anyone with some common sense knows
                        this! Doctors don't get "frightened" when
                        they see a patient with "new symptoms"
                        unless the doctor is a quack!

                        The patient is the one who might be
                        alarmed or "frightened" not the doctor!

                        I'm thinking that Klemp wouldn't have
                        said this unless he's the one that had
                        been "frightened" by a new symptom
                        that he reported to the doctor. And that
                        the doctor needed to "change" Klemp's
                        medication.

                        Of course, Klemp should have stopped
                        using the medication when he noticed
                        "new symptoms" or what might have been
                        side effects of the medication. People just
                        have to weigh whether or not the side effects
                        of medication are all that bad when considering
                        living with the effects of their disease.

                        In any case, upon closer analysis of what
                        Klemp has said, it is clear that Klemp is
                        a fraud and should have stepped down
                        15 years ago! Unfortunately, it looks like
                        he's staying for 10 more years for a total
                        of 3 Twelve Year Cycles, or until his death!
                        Klemp, it would seem, wants to take ECKankar
                        to the grave with him! What a narcissist!

                        Prometheus



                        Prometheus wrote:
                        Klemp stated, "We don't recruit people.
                        We are simply here when people are
                        ready for the teachings."

                        Now why then is so much time, money,
                        and service is focused upon if this statement
                        was true? Why is there a spiritual year
                        called "Year of the ECK Missionary" if
                        this was true? Why do ECKists advertise
                        and have so much focus "geared" to the
                        publicity and promotion of ECKankar
                        VERSUS having more focus upon expanding
                        the Consciousness of long-time current
                        (paying) members by handing out more
                        and Higher Initiations if that statement
                        was true? Klemp is such a deceiver and liar!

                        FYI-One can tell when Klemp is lying because
                        it always happens when he opens his mouth
                        and words come out. And I've noticed that
                        HK's crooked little smile will either come before
                        or after the lies.

                        Disclaimer? Klemp also mentioned again,
                        as he did last year, that "all of the names
                        I use for the characters in my stories are
                        fictitious. I use a book of names written for
                        writers of novels. This way I stay with easy
                        names rather than risk mispronouncing ethnic
                        names."

                        Klemp never was much of a "risk" taker.
                        But, since he brought up the topic of novels
                        and fiction it makes one wonder what else is
                        fictitious in Klemp's writings? It's not even
                        a leap to see where Klemp's train of thought
                        has taken him since he's the one who pointed
                        it out.

                        Of course EKies will see this differently
                        and as maybe a "paradox" of sorts. After all,
                        Klemp's words are of the lower plane anyway
                        and maybe he was under the influence of Kal
                        due to his weaken EMR condition. Poor Harry!
                        Maybe EKists can HU for him? Oops, sorry!

                        HK also stated that, "I like to be around
                        other people [really?] and the ECK touches
                        them in some way but I don't try to control
                        It (the ECK)," and, therefore, neither should
                        ECKists!

                        But, that's strange! If HK's the Mahanta
                        and is One with the ECK why wouldn't he
                        be able to "control It," or WANT to control It?
                        The ECK, in these lower planes, is expressed
                        as a Negative or as a Positive right? And, HK
                        stated that "The ECK Touches Them [people
                        he's around] In Some Way." How? In what way?
                        Could it be in a Negative way? Oops, I think
                        poor Harry slipped up again! Words can be
                        important even though they are of the Mental
                        (4th) Plane! Klemp should be pulling in his
                        aura when around others. His aura will just
                        dirty up and create an imbalance in the auras
                        of those he meets at the grocery store and
                        other public places!

                        And, isn't it interesting that the MAHANTA
                        is not only using fictitious names, because
                        he doesn't want to risk "mispronouncing"
                        the ethnic ones, but that he, also, Had To
                        BUY a "BOOK OF NAMES!"

                        Plus, this Book Of Names is used by those
                        who write "Novels" (fiction).

                        I wonder if ECKists can see the correlation here
                        and can connect the dots? Did that one just fly
                        right over the cuckoos nest in their heads? Probably!
                        I'll bet it just didn't compute at the time, but the
                        subconscious probably picked it up. Maybe that's
                        why some ECKists attending the Seminar felt sick
                        afterwards.

                        After all, this make-believe world of Klemp's
                        that ECKists have bought into is now beginning
                        to crumble for them. I know what they are feeling
                        because it happened to me. It took quite awhile
                        (weeks) for me to verify all of the lies and to
                        contemplate and regain my balance and my
                        independence as Soul. However, there is a
                        greater Light at the end of that dark tunnel
                        they call ECKankar.

                        More excerpts later--

                        Prometheus


                        Prometheus wrote:
                        It seems that Klemp is always
                        thinking he needs to remind ECKists
                        of their basic beliefs! It does make
                        for a simplified talk that requires
                        minimal preparation. Aren't H.I.s
                        getting tired of Klemp talking down
                        to them? What happened to Higher
                        Consciousness? Has it come down
                        to this redundant crap? Apparently so!

                        The EK/Ruhani Satsang Dogma states
                        that Physical Experience and the
                        burning off of Karma results in the
                        (eventual) purification of Soul.

                        However, Initiation helps to speedup
                        this burn-off process. Thus, being
                        "guided" by the Mahanta/Master is,
                        supposedly, key in speeding up this
                        process of more rapidly burning off
                        of Karma with "inner" experiences
                        and via the "Master" taking on some
                        of the Karma of his chelas. Thus, EK/
                        Ruhani believers can make "spiritual"
                        leaps and bounds beyond the imaginations
                        of all other non-EK/Ruhani Souls!

                        I know that Klemp is not a Jim Jones
                        (yet) and that ECKankar is not a People's
                        Temple, but it has the potential due
                        to the distortions, the lies and the mind-
                        games being played. Let's face it--the
                        disenfranchised are attracted to religions
                        like ECKankar where their Leader or Master
                        can become the Living God!

                        Prometheus

                        Liska wrote:
                        HK's outer directed focus continues.
                        Note how his attention is placed
                        on the Kal again. We could ask
                        ourselves, why does someone who
                        claims to be God Realized and the
                        incarnation of God on earth and in
                        all the universes spend so much time
                        talking about the devil? Does he even
                        have a clue what people living under
                        different governments are supposed
                        to learn? It's easy to come up with
                        platitudes, but why not offer some
                        reasons for why something is what
                        it is? Purification is a stock phrase
                        that can be used in conjunction with
                        anything.

                        Liska

                        Prometheus wrote:

                        ***Excerpt From Klemp's 2008 EWWS Talk:

                        HK: "Groups of nations change and shift
                        gears just as various groups of people do.
                        These things, like the economic crisis and
                        wars, don't just happen. They are caused
                        by people acting as Unconscious Agents
                        of the KAL or Negative Force. BUT there is
                        a process of purification involved with shifting
                        gears. Whether a government is Totalitarian
                        or Democratic, the leaders that are in place
                        there, are there because the people of that
                        country have things to learn."
                      • drubezarne
                        Prometheus, These excerpts from the Eckankar World Wide present the benign public face of Harold Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman who is the leader of a
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 27, 2008
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                          Prometheus,

                          These excerpts from the Eckankar World Wide present the benign public
                          face of Harold Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman who is the
                          leader of a religion called Eckankar. To the unaware public, his
                          statements seem harmless and introduce them to a teaching that seems
                          good-natured and tenderhearted. To the brainwashed eckist, Harold
                          Klemp shows himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle Master.

                          Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility and view the real face
                          of Eckankar and its leader Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                          from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from a discourse series that
                          only higher initiates receive after many years of indoctrination.

                          "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold) can bring the
                          advanced Soul to these heights, for none has the power but him." (
                          Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses, Third Series, p 76).

                          "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon anyone who …deserts the
                          Master….Not once will he see the connection between his betrayal …and
                          the horrendous troubles that strike him down like a plague on every
                          hand.  And thus he goes downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                          despair….  " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses, Third Series,
                          Letter 8).

                          "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their old karma once more.
                          More, the karma of all those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                          their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store for them." (Mystic
                          World, Ask The Master by Harold Klemp, March 2004).

                          "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp) conducts his affairs
                          from this high state of awareness during all of a twenty-four hour
                          day." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)

                          "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp) is the embodiment
                          of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK, and therefore represents the entire
                          ocean of love and compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                          who operates under the strictures of the human level of perception."
                          (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 20).

                          Prometheus, if you can open up the files section, we could upload many
                          more quotes like this that show the real face of Eckankar and its
                          leaders. Let's make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                          of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics of Eckankar's
                          Master who warns against revealing the secrets of the Satsang discourses.

                          Regards
                          Liska

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                          > and that, "I like it because there's
                          > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                          > get together with family and friends
                          > to have a good time and it's a time
                          > to be grateful for our blessings."
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Liska, Klemp isn t too tenderhearted or compassionate when it comes to Darwin! Not mentioning DG s death was unforgiving. It s incredible that long-time
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 27, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Liska,
                            Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                            compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                            Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.

                            It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                            are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                            toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                            to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                            the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                            We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                            every detail of existence or about everyone
                            and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!

                            However, we can all see the proof that
                            Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                            nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!

                            No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                            ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                            Mahanta and that his death should have been
                            mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                            on his behalf.

                            Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                            to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                            can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                            their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                            to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                            and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                            Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                            handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                            growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                            Years than in Klemp's 27!

                            It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                            for Klemp to have said something nice about
                            Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                            Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                            a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                            and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                            Darwin Gross.


                            BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                            setting up some files for various subjects
                            like "ECKankar Threats."


                            Prometheus

                            Liska wrote:
                            Prometheus,
                            These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                            Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                            Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                            who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                            To the unaware public, his statements seem
                            harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                            that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                            To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                            himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                            Master.

                            Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                            and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                            Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                            from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                            a discourse series that only higher initiates
                            receive after many years of indoctrination.

                            "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                            (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                            heights, for none has the power but him."
                            (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                            Third Series, p 76).

                            "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                            anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                            will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                            and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                            like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                            downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                            despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                            Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).

                            "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                            old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                            those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                            their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                            for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                            Harold Klemp, March 2004).

                            "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                            conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                            during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                            The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)

                            "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                            is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                            and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                            compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                            who operates under the strictures of the human level
                            of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                            Fourth Series, Page 20).

                            Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                            we could upload many more quotes like this that
                            show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                            make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                            of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                            of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                            secrets of the Satsang discourses.

                            Regards
                            Liska

                            prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                            > and that, "I like it because there's
                            > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                            > get together with family and friends
                            > to have a good time and it's a time
                            > to be grateful for our blessings."
                          • drubezarne
                            Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3 Eckankar frauds. He doesn t deserve any compassion. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 28, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                              Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                              riddance to bad rubbish.

                              Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                              Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                              Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                              he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                              Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                              yet and so decided to wait 10 years.

                              Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                              did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                              ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                              the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                              this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                              higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.

                              It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                              himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                              also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.

                              There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                              as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                              declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                              just another delusional eckist.

                              I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                              "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                              help to anyone curious about Eckankar.

                              Regards
                              Liska

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Liska,
                              > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                              > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                              > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                              >
                              > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                              > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                              > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                              > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                              > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                              > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                              > every detail of existence or about everyone
                              > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                              >
                              > However, we can all see the proof that
                              > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                              > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                              >
                              > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                              > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                              > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                              > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                              > on his behalf.
                              >
                              > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                              > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                              > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                              > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                              > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                              > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                              > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                              > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                              > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                              > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                              >
                              > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                              > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                              > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                              > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                              > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                              > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                              > Darwin Gross.
                              >
                              >
                              > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                              > setting up some files for various subjects
                              > like "ECKankar Threats."
                              >
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > Liska wrote:
                              > Prometheus,
                              > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                              > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                              > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                              > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                              > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                              > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                              > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                              > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                              > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                              > Master.
                              >
                              > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                              > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                              > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                              > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                              > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                              > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                              >
                              > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                              > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                              > heights, for none has the power but him."
                              > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                              > Third Series, p 76).
                              >
                              > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                              > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                              > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                              > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                              > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                              > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                              > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                              > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                              >
                              > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                              > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                              > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                              > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                              > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                              > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                              >
                              > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                              > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                              > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                              > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                              >
                              > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                              > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                              > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                              > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                              > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                              > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                              > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                              >
                              > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                              > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                              > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                              > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                              > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                              > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                              > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                              >
                              > Regards
                              > Liska
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                              > > and that, "I like it because there's
                              > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                              > > get together with family and friends
                              > > to have a good time and it's a time
                              > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                              >
                            • mishmisha9
                              Liska, you re right who should care about Darwin Gross, really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta is treated so callously by the present
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 29, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                                really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                                is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                                since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                                that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                                example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                                point that out.

                                I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                                hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                                mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                                narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                                with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                                were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                                how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                                counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                                Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?

                                Mish

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne" <drubezarne@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                                > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                                > riddance to bad rubbish.
                                >
                                > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                                > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                                > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                                > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                                > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                                > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                                >
                                > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                                > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                                > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                                > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                                > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                                > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                                >
                                > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                                > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                                > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                                >
                                > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                                > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                                > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                                > just another delusional eckist.
                                >
                                > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                                > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                                > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                                >
                                > Regards
                                > Liska
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Liska,
                                > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                                > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                                > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                                > >
                                > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                                > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                                > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                                > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                                > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                                > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                                > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                                > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                                > >
                                > > However, we can all see the proof that
                                > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                                > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                                > >
                                > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                                > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                                > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                                > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                                > > on his behalf.
                                > >
                                > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                                > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                                > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                                > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                                > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                                > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                                > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                                > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                                > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                                > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                                > >
                                > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                                > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                                > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                                > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                                > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                                > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                                > > Darwin Gross.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                                > > setting up some files for various subjects
                                > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > > Liska wrote:
                                > > Prometheus,
                                > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                                > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                                > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                                > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                                > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                                > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                                > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                                > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                                > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                                > > Master.
                                > >
                                > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                                > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                                > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                                > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                                > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                                > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                                > >
                                > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                                > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                                > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                                > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                                > > Third Series, p 76).
                                > >
                                > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                                > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                                > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                                > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                                > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                                > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                                > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                                > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                                > >
                                > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                                > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                                > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                                > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                                > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                                > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                                > >
                                > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                                > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                                > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                                > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                                > >
                                > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                                > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                                > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                                > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                                > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                                > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                                > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                                > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                                > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                                > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                                > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                                > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                                > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                                > >
                                > > Regards
                                > > Liska
                                > >
                                > > prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                                > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                                > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                                > > > get together with family and friends
                                > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                                > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                                > >
                                >
                              • drubezarne
                                Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I m wondering if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its pseudo-master Harold
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                                  if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                                  pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                                  something and missing the bigger picture.

                                  Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                                  signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                                  giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                                  would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                                  followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                                  anybody who has the courage to leave him.

                                  I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                                  said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                                  this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                                  other spiritual/religious principles.

                                  For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                                  you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                                  record, then you could help out here.

                                  Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...

                                  1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                                  the universes.

                                  2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                                  of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                                  times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."

                                  3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                                  numerously the "Awakened Dream".

                                  4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                                  making it the main focus for eckists.

                                  Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                                  and then we could examine each.

                                  Regards
                                  Liska

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                  <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                                  > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                                  > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                                  > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                                  > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                                  > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                                  > point that out.
                                  >
                                  > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                                  > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                                  > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                                  > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                                  > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                                  > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                                  > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                                  > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                                  > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                                  >
                                  > Mish
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
                                  <drubezarne@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                                  > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                                  > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                                  > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                                  > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                                  > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                                  > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                                  > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                                  > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                                  > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                                  > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                                  > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                                  > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                                  > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                                  > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                                  > >
                                  > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                                  > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                                  > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                                  > > just another delusional eckist.
                                  > >
                                  > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                                  > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                                  > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards
                                  > > Liska
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                  > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi Liska,
                                  > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                                  > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                                  > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                                  > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                                  > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                                  > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                                  > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                                  > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                                  > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                                  > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                                  > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                                  > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                                  > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                                  > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                                  > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                                  > > > on his behalf.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                                  > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                                  > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                                  > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                                  > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                                  > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                                  > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                                  > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                                  > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                                  > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                                  > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                                  > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                                  > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                                  > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                                  > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                                  > > > Darwin Gross.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                                  > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                                  > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Liska wrote:
                                  > > > Prometheus,
                                  > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                                  > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                                  > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                                  > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                                  > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                                  > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                                  > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                                  > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                                  > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                                  > > > Master.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                                  > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                                  > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                                  > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                                  > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                                  > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                                  > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                                  > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                                  > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                                  > > > Third Series, p 76).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                                  > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                                  > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                                  > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                                  > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                                  > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                                  > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                                  > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                                  > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                                  > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                                  > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                                  > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                                  > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                                  > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                                  > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                                  > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                                  > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                                  > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                                  > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                                  > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                                  > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                                  > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                                  > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                                  > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                                  > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                                  > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                                  > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                                  > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Regards
                                  > > > Liska
                                  > > >
                                  > > > prometheus wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                                  > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                                  > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                                  > > > > get together with family and friends
                                  > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                                  > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Liska and All, I can t speak for Mish, but with Klemp the devil is in the details. Therefore, I don t see that there has been too much focus on trivial
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
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                                    Hello Liska and All,
                                    I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                                    the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                                    I don't see that there has been too much
                                    focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                                    The little pictures tend to complete the
                                    big picture. I don't see anything trivial.

                                    For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                                    at and piecing together the missing parts
                                    to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                                    the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                                    pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                                    why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.

                                    However, if you want to focus more on the
                                    "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                                    thinking that the focus here has been on both
                                    the big and the small pictures.

                                    But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                                    a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                                    and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                                    show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                                    delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                                    character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                                    early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                                    divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                                    bigger picture?

                                    For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                                    Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                                    ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                                    or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                                    Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                                    met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                                    transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                                    One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                                    as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                                    of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).

                                    The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                                    when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                                    that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                                    2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                                    "common language" for AUM.

                                    When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                                    of the Light and Sound of God?

                                    Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"

                                    When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                                    spin?

                                    When was the RESA org. first created?

                                    When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                                    and Why?

                                    When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                                    the Mahanta?"

                                    When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"

                                    BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                                    as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                                    the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                                    the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                                    thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                                    "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                                    Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                                    intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]

                                    And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                                    and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                                    die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                                    him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                                    Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                                    is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                                    that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                                    for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!

                                    Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                                    and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                                    to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.

                                    Prometheus


                                    pjr_sr wrote:
                                    Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                                    if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                                    pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                                    something and missing the bigger picture.

                                    Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                                    signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                                    giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                                    would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                                    followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                                    anybody who has the courage to leave him.

                                    I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                                    said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                                    this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                                    other spiritual/religious principles.

                                    For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                                    you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                                    record, then you could help out here.

                                    Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...

                                    1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                                    the universes.

                                    2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                                    of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                                    times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."

                                    3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                                    numerously the "Awakened Dream".

                                    4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                                    making it the main focus for eckists.

                                    Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                                    and then we could examine each.

                                    Regards
                                    Liska


                                    mishmisha9@wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                                    > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                                    > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                                    > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                                    > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                                    > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                                    > point that out.
                                    >
                                    > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                                    > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                                    > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                                    > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                                    > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                                    > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                                    > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                                    > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                                    > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                                    >
                                    > Mish
                                    >

                                    drubezarne@wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of the 3
                                    > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                                    > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got rid of
                                    > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                                    > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                                    > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                                    > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready for it
                                    > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                                    > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due to the
                                    > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                                    > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to say that
                                    > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                                    > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                                    > >
                                    > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                                    > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle, but he
                                    > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous master.
                                    > >
                                    > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                                    > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                                    > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                                    > > just another delusional eckist.
                                    > >
                                    > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                                    > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                                    > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                                    > >
                                    > > Regards
                                    > > Liska
                                    > >

                                    > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi Liska,
                                    > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                                    > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                                    > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                                    > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                                    > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                                    > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                                    > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                                    > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                                    > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                                    > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                                    > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                                    > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                                    > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                                    > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                                    > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                                    > > > on his behalf.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                                    > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                                    > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                                    > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                                    > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                                    > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                                    > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                                    > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                                    > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                                    > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                                    > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                                    > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                                    > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                                    > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                                    > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                                    > > > Darwin Gross.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                                    > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                                    > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Liska wrote:
                                    > > > Prometheus,
                                    > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                                    > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                                    > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                                    > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                                    > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                                    > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                                    > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                                    > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                                    > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                                    > > > Master.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                                    > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                                    > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                                    > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                                    > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                                    > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                                    > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                                    > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                                    > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                                    > > > Third Series, p 76).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                                    > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                                    > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                                    > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                                    > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                                    > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                                    > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                                    > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                                    > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                                    > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                                    > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                                    > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                                    > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                                    > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                                    > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                                    > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                                    > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                                    > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                                    > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                                    > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                                    > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                                    > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                                    > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                                    > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                                    > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                                    > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                                    > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                                    > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Regards
                                    > > > Liska
                                    > > >
                                    > > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                                    > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                                    > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                                    > > > > get together with family and friends
                                    > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                                    > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                                    > > >
                                  • drubezarne
                                    Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got rid of all my Eckankar
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
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                                      Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
                                      Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
                                      rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation. All
                                      I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as I
                                      can and move on to better things.

                                      So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
                                      anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
                                      leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of it
                                      is old.

                                      Regards
                                      Liska

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Liska and All,
                                      > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                                      > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                                      > I don't see that there has been too much
                                      > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                                      > The little pictures tend to complete the
                                      > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
                                      >
                                      > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                                      > at and piecing together the missing parts
                                      > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                                      > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                                      > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                                      > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
                                      >
                                      > However, if you want to focus more on the
                                      > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                                      > thinking that the focus here has been on both
                                      > the big and the small pictures.
                                      >
                                      > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                                      > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                                      > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                                      > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                                      > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                                      > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                                      > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                                      > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                                      > bigger picture?
                                      >
                                      > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                                      > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                                      > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                                      > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                                      > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                                      > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                                      > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                                      > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                                      > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                                      > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
                                      >
                                      > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                                      > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                                      > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                                      > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                                      > "common language" for AUM.
                                      >
                                      > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                                      > of the Light and Sound of God?
                                      >
                                      > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
                                      >
                                      > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                                      > spin?
                                      >
                                      > When was the RESA org. first created?
                                      >
                                      > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                                      > and Why?
                                      >
                                      > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                                      > the Mahanta?"
                                      >
                                      > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
                                      >
                                      > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                                      > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                                      > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                                      > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                                      > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                                      > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                                      > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                                      > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
                                      >
                                      > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                                      > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                                      > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                                      > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                                      > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                                      > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                                      > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                                      > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
                                      >
                                      > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                                      > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                                      > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > pjr_sr wrote:
                                      > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
                                      > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                                      > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
                                      > something and missing the bigger picture.
                                      >
                                      > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
                                      > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                                      > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                                      > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
                                      > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                                      > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
                                      >
                                      > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
                                      > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                                      > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                                      > other spiritual/religious principles.
                                      >
                                      > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
                                      > you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
                                      > record, then you could help out here.
                                      >
                                      > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
                                      >
                                      > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
                                      > the universes.
                                      >
                                      > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
                                      > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                                      > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."
                                      >
                                      > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                                      > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
                                      >
                                      > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
                                      > making it the main focus for eckists.
                                      >
                                      > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                                      > and then we could examine each.
                                      >
                                      > Regards
                                      > Liska
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > mishmisha9@wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                                      > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                                      > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                                      > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                                      > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                                      > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                                      > > point that out.
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                                      > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                                      > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                                      > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                                      > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                                      > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                                      > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                                      > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                                      > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                                      > >
                                      > > Mish
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > drubezarne@wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of
                                      the 3
                                      > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                                      > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
                                      rid of
                                      > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
                                      > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
                                      > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
                                      > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready
                                      for it
                                      > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
                                      > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
                                      to the
                                      > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
                                      > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
                                      say that
                                      > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
                                      > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
                                      > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle,
                                      but he
                                      > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
                                      master.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
                                      > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
                                      > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
                                      > > > just another delusional eckist.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
                                      > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
                                      > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Regards
                                      > > > Liska
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Hi Liska,
                                      > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                                      > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                                      > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                                      > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                                      > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                                      > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                                      > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                                      > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                                      > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                                      > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                                      > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                                      > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                                      > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                                      > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                                      > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                                      > > > > on his behalf.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                                      > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                                      > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                                      > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                                      > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                                      > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                                      > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                                      > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                                      > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                                      > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                                      > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                                      > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                                      > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                                      > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                                      > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                                      > > > > Darwin Gross.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                                      > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                                      > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Prometheus
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Liska wrote:
                                      > > > > Prometheus,
                                      > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                                      > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                                      > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                                      > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                                      > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                                      > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                                      > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                                      > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                                      > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                                      > > > > Master.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                                      > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                                      > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                                      > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                                      > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                                      > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                                      > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                                      > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                                      > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                                      > > > > Third Series, p 76).
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                                      > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                                      > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                                      > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                                      > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                                      > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                                      > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                                      > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                                      > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                                      > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                                      > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                                      > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                                      > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                                      > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                                      > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                                      > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                                      > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                                      > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                                      > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                                      > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                                      > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                                      > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                                      > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                                      > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                                      > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                                      > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                                      > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                                      > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Regards
                                      > > > > Liska
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                                      > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                                      > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                                      > > > > > get together with family and friends
                                      > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                                      > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                    • D.R.D.
                                      Responded to this thread earlier in the evening. Mentioned that I had not received Yahoo Groups messages in the past few days. They were bouncing. Apparently,
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Dec 1, 2008
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                                        Responded to this thread earlier
                                        in the evening. Mentioned that I had
                                        not received Yahoo Groups messages in
                                        the past few days. They were bouncing.

                                        Apparently, that response bounced
                                        too? Anyhow, I think my Yahoo e-mail
                                        is normal (and working) now.

                                        Etznab

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
                                        <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
                                        > Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
                                        > rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation.
                                        All
                                        > I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as
                                        I
                                        > can and move on to better things.
                                        >
                                        > So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
                                        > anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
                                        > leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of
                                        it
                                        > is old.
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        > Liska
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Liska and All,
                                        > > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
                                        > > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
                                        > > I don't see that there has been too much
                                        > > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
                                        > > The little pictures tend to complete the
                                        > > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
                                        > >
                                        > > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
                                        > > at and piecing together the missing parts
                                        > > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
                                        > > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
                                        > > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
                                        > > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
                                        > >
                                        > > However, if you want to focus more on the
                                        > > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
                                        > > thinking that the focus here has been on both
                                        > > the big and the small pictures.
                                        > >
                                        > > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
                                        > > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
                                        > > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
                                        > > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
                                        > > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
                                        > > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
                                        > > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
                                        > > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
                                        > > bigger picture?
                                        > >
                                        > > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
                                        > > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
                                        > > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
                                        > > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
                                        > > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
                                        > > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
                                        > > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
                                        > > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
                                        > > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
                                        > > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
                                        > >
                                        > > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
                                        > > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
                                        > > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
                                        > > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
                                        > > "common language" for AUM.
                                        > >
                                        > > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
                                        > > of the Light and Sound of God?
                                        > >
                                        > > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
                                        > >
                                        > > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
                                        > > spin?
                                        > >
                                        > > When was the RESA org. first created?
                                        > >
                                        > > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
                                        > > and Why?
                                        > >
                                        > > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
                                        > > the Mahanta?"
                                        > >
                                        > > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
                                        > >
                                        > > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
                                        > > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
                                        > > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
                                        > > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
                                        > > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
                                        > > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
                                        > > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
                                        > > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
                                        > >
                                        > > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
                                        > > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
                                        > > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
                                        > > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
                                        > > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
                                        > > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
                                        > > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
                                        > > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
                                        > > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
                                        > > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > pjr_sr wrote:
                                        > > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm
                                        wondering
                                        > > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
                                        > > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely
                                        at
                                        > > something and missing the bigger picture.
                                        > >
                                        > > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would
                                        see
                                        > > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
                                        > > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
                                        > > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his
                                        own
                                        > > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
                                        > > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
                                        > >
                                        > > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp
                                        has
                                        > > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
                                        > > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
                                        > > other spiritual/religious principles.
                                        > >
                                        > > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab,
                                        since
                                        > > you said you are interested in researching and compiling
                                        Eckankar's
                                        > > record, then you could help out here.
                                        > >
                                        > > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
                                        > >
                                        > > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in
                                        all
                                        > > the universes.
                                        > >
                                        > > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with
                                        each
                                        > > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
                                        > > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with
                                        you."
                                        > >
                                        > > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
                                        > > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
                                        > >
                                        > > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar),
                                        thus
                                        > > making it the main focus for eckists.
                                        > >
                                        > > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
                                        > > and then we could examine each.
                                        > >
                                        > > Regards
                                        > > Liska
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > mishmisha9@wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
                                        > > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
                                        > > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
                                        > > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
                                        > > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
                                        > > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
                                        > > > point that out.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
                                        > > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
                                        > > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
                                        > > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
                                        > > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
                                        > > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
                                        > > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
                                        > > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
                                        > > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Mish
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > drubezarne@wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another
                                        of
                                        > the 3
                                        > > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
                                        > > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
                                        > rid of
                                        > > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked
                                        by the
                                        > > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years
                                        before
                                        > > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of
                                        Eck
                                        > > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't
                                        ready
                                        > for it
                                        > > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's
                                        how he
                                        > > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
                                        > to the
                                        > > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is
                                        higher up on
                                        > > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
                                        > say that
                                        > > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today
                                        holds a
                                        > > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only
                                        declares
                                        > > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta
                                        mantle,
                                        > but he
                                        > > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
                                        > master.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to
                                        Darwin
                                        > > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot
                                        while
                                        > > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how
                                        he was
                                        > > > > just another delusional eckist.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once
                                        all the
                                        > > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a
                                        great
                                        > > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Regards
                                        > > > > Liska
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Hi Liska,
                                        > > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
                                        > > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
                                        > > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
                                        > > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
                                        > > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
                                        > > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
                                        > > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
                                        > > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
                                        > > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
                                        > > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
                                        > > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
                                        > > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
                                        > > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
                                        > > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
                                        > > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
                                        > > > > > on his behalf.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
                                        > > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
                                        > > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
                                        > > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
                                        > > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
                                        > > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
                                        > > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
                                        > > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
                                        > > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
                                        > > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
                                        > > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
                                        > > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
                                        > > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
                                        > > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
                                        > > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
                                        > > > > > Darwin Gross.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
                                        > > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
                                        > > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Prometheus
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Liska wrote:
                                        > > > > > Prometheus,
                                        > > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
                                        > > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
                                        > > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
                                        > > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
                                        > > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
                                        > > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
                                        > > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
                                        > > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
                                        > > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
                                        > > > > > Master.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
                                        > > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
                                        > > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
                                        > > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
                                        > > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
                                        > > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
                                        > > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
                                        > > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
                                        > > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
                                        > > > > > Third Series, p 76).
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
                                        > > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
                                        > > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
                                        > > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
                                        > > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
                                        > > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
                                        > > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
                                        > > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
                                        > > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
                                        > > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
                                        > > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
                                        > > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
                                        > > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
                                        > > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
                                        > > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
                                        > > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
                                        > > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
                                        > > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
                                        > > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
                                        > > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
                                        > > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
                                        > > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
                                        > > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
                                        > > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
                                        > > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
                                        > > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
                                        > > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
                                        > > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Regards
                                        > > > > > Liska
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
                                        > > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
                                        > > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
                                        > > > > > > get together with family and friends
                                        > > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
                                        > > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
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