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Are we Masters?

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  • Ma-li
    Hi All,   Wow, this has been a lot of information to process, and gave me something to do while I was sick in bed.  I think I have arrived at a soultion to
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 11, 2008
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      Hi All,
       
      Wow, this has been a lot of information to process, and gave me something to do while I was sick in bed.  I think I have arrived at a soultion to my problem...how about if I wrote HK a personal letter, and laid out exactly how I feel about my experience as an Eckist?  Would he even get the letter, or would someone else read it and discard it?  At least I would have gotten it off my chest.
       
      Prometheus, you wrote:  Many ECKists can't
      see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
      a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
      own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
       
      Do you suppose those of us who have found ourselves in this position where we are now, have reached this point?  Is it not time for us to take total responsibility for every action, word, deed, thought and feeling, and be the Masters we are in our own right?
       
      And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
      protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
      Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
      talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
      ECK Temple and the ESC? 
       
      More good questions that I would someday like to know the answers to.
       
      Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
      and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
      (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
      Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
      have the most to lose.

      But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
      Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
      and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
      their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
      their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
      Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
      their Silence.

      And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
      They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and
      Self-
      Mastery
      , now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
      and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
      and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
      Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

      Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
      only the strong can break the ties that have bound
      generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
      or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
      self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
      who couldn't function in the real world.


      Prometheus

       
      Wonderfully stated.  Thank you!!
       
      Namaste
      Ma-li

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Ma-li and All, One has to ask and answer their own questions, except, one needs their own criteria as well. But one thing is for sure, if you think or
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 11, 2008
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        Hello Ma-li and All,
        One has to ask and answer their own
        questions, except, one needs their own
        criteria as well. But one thing is for sure,
        if you think or say or infer that you are
        already a "Master" then the chances are
        you're not! Besides, once again, what is
        the criteria and is that yours or someone
        else's belief.

        Is "Mastership" really based upon being
        True, Necessary, and Kind, and is discipline
        of thoughts, words, feelings, actions, and
        reactions the only way or just more religious
        rhetoric since the "Masters" can't even follow
        these standards themselves? Catch-22 means
        that they don't have to follow these because
        appearances can be deceiving (or not).


        BTW-These were rhetorical questions: "And,
        where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
        protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there
        Metal Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars
        for only Klemp's talk? Why are there Searches
        for Seminar Tours of the ECK Temple and the
        ESC?"

        The answer to these are is that Klemp is
        a Fraud and that's why he's Fearful and
        that's why the "Mahanta" is a fictional
        title just as the ECK Masters are fictional
        characters!


        ALSO, did anyone pay good money to listen
        to Klemp's stupid Seminar talk? Does anyone
        want to share what was said? I already know
        that Klemp had to have had at least two Nigerian
        stories. Did HK repeat himself again on anything
        said in previous talks? Probably! What new &
        old nonsense did ECKists pay for this time?

        Please share anything here or email me privately.

        Prometheus


        Ma-li wrote:

        Wow, this has been a lot of information to process,
        and gave me something to do while I was sick in bed.
        I think I have arrived at a soultion to my problem...
        how about if I wrote HK a personal letter, and laid
        out exactly how I feel about my experience as an
        Eckist? Would he even get the letter, or would someone
        else read it and discard it? At least I would have
        gotten it off my chest.

        Prometheus, you wrote: "Many ECKists can't
        see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
        a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
        own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger."

        Do you suppose those of us who have found ourselves
        in this position where we are now, have reached this point?
        Is it not time for us to take total responsibility for every
        action, word, deed, thought and feeling, and be the Masters
        we are in our own right?

        "And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
        protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
        Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
        talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
        ECK Temple and the ESC?"

        More good questions that I would someday like
        to know the answers to.

        "Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
        and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
        (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
        Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
        have the most to lose.

        But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
        Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
        and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
        their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
        their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
        Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
        their Silence.

        And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
        They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
        Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
        and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
        and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
        Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

        Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
        only the strong can break the ties that have bound
        generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
        or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
        self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
        who couldn't function in the real world."


        Prometheus


        Wonderfully stated. Thank you!!

        Namaste
        Ma-li
      • Ma-li
        Greetings all,   Actually, I think no one can discern if someone else is a Master or not.  We each have our own growth, and no other person is us.  However,
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 13, 2008
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          Greetings all,
           
          Actually, I think no one can discern if someone else is a Master or not.  We each have our own growth, and no other person is us.  However, I also think that so many who think they are masters still have a long way to go.  Life is a learning process, be it on this plane or any other plane.  Granted, we all are a spark of God, but have a long long way to go to get back to the Godhead.
           
          There may be exceptions to this, however.  I just haven't found any. lol
           
          Namaste
           
          Ma-li


          --- On Tue, 11/11/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Are we Masters?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 3:02 PM

          Hello Ma-li and All,
          One has to ask and answer their own
          questions, except, one needs their own
          criteria as well. But one thing is for sure,
          if you think or say or infer that you are
          already a "Master" then the chances are
          you're not! Besides, once again, what is
          the criteria and is that yours or someone
          else's belief.

          Is "Mastership" really based upon being
          True, Necessary, and Kind, and is discipline
          of thoughts, words, feelings, actions, and
          reactions the only way or just more religious
          rhetoric since the "Masters" can't even follow
          these standards themselves? Catch-22 means
          that they don't have to follow these because
          appearances can be deceiving (or not).

          BTW-These were rhetorical questions: "And,
          where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
          protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there
          Metal Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars
          for only Klemp's talk? Why are there Searches
          for Seminar Tours of the ECK Temple and the
          ESC?"

          The answer to these are is that Klemp is
          a Fraud and that's why he's Fearful and
          that's why the "Mahanta" is a fictional
          title just as the ECK Masters are fictional
          characters!

          ALSO, did anyone pay good money to listen
          to Klemp's stupid Seminar talk? Does anyone
          want to share what was said? I already know
          that Klemp had to have had at least two Nigerian
          stories. Did HK repeat himself again on anything
          said in previous talks? Probably! What new &
          old nonsense did ECKists pay for this time?

          Please share anything here or email me privately.

          Prometheus


          Ma-li wrote:

          Wow, this has been a lot of information to process,
          and gave me something to do while I was sick in bed.
          I think I have arrived at a soultion to my problem...
          how about if I wrote HK a personal letter, and laid
          out exactly how I feel about my experience as an
          Eckist? Would he even get the letter, or would someone
          else read it and discard it? At least I would have
          gotten it off my chest.

          Prometheus, you wrote: "Many ECKists can't
          see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
          a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
          own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger. "

          Do you suppose those of us who have found ourselves
          in this position where we are now, have reached this point?
          Is it not time for us to take total responsibility for every
          action, word, deed, thought and feeling, and be the Masters
          we are in our own right?

          "And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
          protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
          Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
          talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
          ECK Temple and the ESC?"

          More good questions that I would someday like
          to know the answers to.

          "Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
          and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
          (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
          Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
          have the most to lose.

          But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
          Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
          and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
          their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
          their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
          Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
          their Silence.

          And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
          They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
          Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
          and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
          and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
          Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

          Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
          only the strong can break the ties that have bound
          generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
          or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
          self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
          who couldn't function in the real world."

          Prometheus

          Wonderfully stated. Thank you!!

          Namaste
          Ma-li


        • prometheus_973
          Hello Ma-li and All, I agree with what you have stated. Thus, ECKankar relies upon certain assumptions to be made based upon titles and rank. The belief is
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 13, 2008
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            Hello Ma-li and All,
            I agree with what you have stated.
            Thus, ECKankar relies upon certain
            assumptions to be made based upon
            titles and rank. The belief is that the
            higher the title (position) and initiation
            (rank) the more validity they have of
            having a higher consciousness. Yet,
            Klemp, personally, only gives the 8th
            initiation. Klemp assigns others to read
            IROs and to approve all of the other
            initiations below the 7th! HK still approves
            the 7th Initiation and RESA positions,
            but he does so with the recommendations
            and reports of others.

            Also, with ECKankar one can, supposedly,
            gain or lose degrees of this spiritual
            consciousness from moment to moment.
            Klemp stated in a past Wisdom Note
            that 5ths who have not read their EK
            discourses for years would be surprised
            to learn that their consciousness has
            dropped to that of a 4th initiate!

            Klemp's Catch-22 is that someone can
            be a "Master" but Not show it in their "outer"
            appearance and behaviour, or in other ways.
            However, if this is true then the opposite
            must, also, be true. Thus, a person can
            appear to be a "Master" on the outer when
            they are a lower plane devil or KAL agent
            on the "inner."

            Can anyone really know who is or is not
            a Master? And, does it matter?

            Maybe the true seeker should be more
            concerned with their own growth and Beingness.
            What does this "Master" title mean anyway?
            What is the criteria for being a Master? What
            has Klemp ever done to show or prove that
            he is a "Master?" Nothing! Klemp inherited
            his position from his mentor a Black Magician!
            This is why HK hides away or visits the mall
            or grocery store occasionally.

            BTW-Can a person "teach" someone else
            "How to be a Master?" Doesn't Klemp teach
            the "as if" acting method of "How to Imitate/
            Emulate a Master?" Does imagining something
            make it "real?" Isn't it more about mental energy
            and how it's directed!

            Let's face it, people in general tend to look
            to others as heros, leaders, experts, masters
            and gods. I'm just surprised that more EK
            Higher Initiates (who were originally spiritual
            seekers) haven't figured out Klemp's game
            plan by now! It must be their egos and the
            fear factor that continue to bind them to him.

            In history, those who had a spiritual awakening
            always walked their own path and broke from
            the status quo. These enlightened Souls were
            transfigured into their own individual and unique
            versions of Truth. They no longer needed to follow
            the religious leaders and those wielding political
            power (usually these religious/political leaders
            are one and the same). Anyway, EK H.I.s have
            become part of the religious status quo.

            Yes, life is a learning process as long as one
            keeps an open mind. ECKists should call upon
            their own Soul (their true identity) instead of
            the Mahanta. Why use a middleman when they
            can go to the Source (i.e. Spirit or Sugmad) via
            Soul. And, ECKists really do need to set their
            fears aside. After all, why should reading excerpts
            from Chapters 6-10 [1st LINK] of "Confessions
            of a God Seeker" by a former RESA be a fearful
            experience? Really though, ECKists probably
            feel the need to read more information outside
            of ECKankar. Klemp just can't provide any words
            that have any "spiritual meat." Look at HK's seminar
            talks... it's nonsense!

            Prometheus
            p.s. Ma-li, Liska, Etznab or anyone... do you have
            notes or comments from HK's 2008 EWWS talk
            that you could share with us?


            Ma-li wrote:
            Greetings all,

            Actually, I think no one can discern
            if someone else is a Master or not.
            We each have our own growth, and
            no other person is us. However,
            I also think that so many who think
            they are masters still have a long way
            to go. Life is a learning process, be
            it on this plane or any other plane.
            Granted, we all are a spark of God,
            but have a long long way to go to
            get back to the Godhead.

            There may be exceptions to this,
            however. I just haven't found any.
            lol

            Namaste

            Ma-li


            prometheus wrote:

            Hello Ma-li and All,
            One has to ask and answer their own
            questions, except, one needs their own
            criteria as well. But one thing is for sure,
            if you think or say or infer that you are
            already a "Master" then the chances are
            you're not! Besides, once again, what is
            the criteria and is that yours or someone
            else's belief.

            Is "Mastership" really based upon being
            True, Necessary, and Kind, and is discipline
            of thoughts, words, feelings, actions, and
            reactions the only way or just more religious
            rhetoric since the "Masters" can't even follow
            these standards themselves? Catch-22 means
            that they don't have to follow these because
            appearances can be deceiving (or not).
          • drubezarne
            Prometheus, I didn t waste my money on listening to another Klemp lecture so I don t have anything by that fraud. On another note, those who have left or are
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 13, 2008
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              Prometheus, I didn't waste my money on listening to another Klemp
              lecture so I don't have anything by that fraud.

              On another note, those who have left or are in the process of leaving
              Eckankar, I recommend reading books by the New Thought movement
              writers like Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith, Walter Lanyon, and
              others. These writers emphasize finding your own Master power within
              rather than following masters or joining organizations. Here's just a
              sample from Walter Lanyon who talks about how much you can harm
              yourself when you follow a master. I also like what he says about
              these frauds, especially when they damn their followers with the
              direst threats if they dare to leave them (see the Shariyat and
              Klemp's Satsang 3 and 4 series). Lanyon is spot on when he says most
              of them can't even function like normal human beings. Anyway, here's
              the quote...

              "So long as you believe in the Power apart from yourself you will keep
              transferring the expression of your life to some being, or entity, or
              master. ... there is no question of the limitations of the little self
              standing in the way of the glorious expression of your God-self, and
              you will not have to believe in outside help. When you know there is
              nothing outside of you to help or harm you because the whole Power
              lies within, then you have come to the contact with God.

              ...If you keep transferring your power to another point, and
              recognizing powers outside of the Supreme Being, I shall prove to you
              this denial is fruitful, and you shall bring forth the hellish crop of
              fears which you are constantly "treating against.

              Not finding a plausible way to dispose of the evil, you will attribute
              it to other entities, either embodied or disembodied, or you will give
              it a name and run about excusing your failure to Life -- God -- by the
              fact that someone is "mal-practicing you," or that a person of another
              faith is praying against you.

              I have seen people rushing about pronouncing the cursings and telling
              of evil things that would happen to people who did not subscribe to
              their personal teachings, and sometimes engendering fears in others,
              when they themselves could not bring out enough substance to pay a
              subway-fare to their destination.

              Awake, thou that sleepest! The next time the messenger of Light, who
              has a fear thought of cursing and evil in the background, approaches
              you with a sweet morsel of Truth, put him in the strait-jacket of
              proof. Look him over carefully, deliberately; I think you will find
              plenty of signs which indicate his utter lack of ability to bring out
              even the most necessary things of life."

              Walter Lanyon

              You can find some free .pdf books by Walter Lanyon right here...

              http://www.freehealingbooks.com/be-great-15.htm

              Regards
              Liska



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

              > p.s. Ma-li, Liska, Etznab or anyone... do you have
              > notes or comments from HK's 2008 EWWS talk
              > that you could share with us?
              >
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