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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...

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  • Ma-li
    Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.   I
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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      Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.
       
      I was thinking about the same thing shortly before your post came in.  If the internet had been around back then, Paul wouldn't have gotten away with all this stuff.  On the other hand, just from limited experience in this area with local eckists, if they accidently found this group, they would not believe one word of it.  Even if they read all the files, they'd say it was just malcontents who couldn't handle being true eckists.  Even my best friend, with whom I tried to discuss my feelings about all this, thinks I'm way off center.  She said, and I quote, "I'll bet this is just a test before you get your 6th".  BS!!!  If that were true, why would I have been having doubts for 5 years or more!
       
      Interesting about Joan.  Are you saying what I think you are saying?  It will be interesting to read his new book....when and if he ever writes one that isn't just chela experiences.
       
      Oh, the thread you all were on before .......why would HK need security people surrounding him, and why would he have any need for a flak vest????  He's supposed to be our protector against all sorts of bad stuff.  Can't he even protect himself?  I know, this is part of his disorder.  Never though he might have mental problems even tho' he did get naked at the airport way back when.  Oh lord, this is all too much for me to digest right now.
       
      I certainly hope having my eyes opened is spiritual growth 'cause if it ain't, then I'm in deep doodoo.
       
      Namaste
      Ma-li
       
       

      --- On Sat, 11/8/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
      From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:57 AM

      Hello, Ma-li!

      I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

      Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
      making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
      different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
      are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
      lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

      As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
      wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
      to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
      physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
      devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

      But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
      female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
      had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
      Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
      of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
      Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
      Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
      And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
      those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
      Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
      showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
      Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
      this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
      what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
      his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
      on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
      which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
      that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
      difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
      publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
      deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
      master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
      Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

      BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
      links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
      Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
      and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

      I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
      eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
      Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Good Morning All,
      >  
      > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
      on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
      Oh well...
      >  
      > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
      the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
      in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
      takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
      make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
      down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
      >  
      > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
      membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
      same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
      the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
      devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
      told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
      got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
      inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
      and don't plan to start at this point. lol
      >  
      > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
      several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
      sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
      freedom.
      >  
      > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
      game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
      were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
      and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
      of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
      others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
      >  
      > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
      path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
      new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
      confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
      down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
      least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
      Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
      religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
      all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
      >  
      > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
      of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
      >  
      > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
      to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
      never be a female because of energies, or such. 
      >  
      > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
      >  
      > Namaste
      > Ma-li



    • prometheus_973
      Hello Ma-li and All, First, I d like to point out that Kata-Daki (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell. Paul created this Female ECK Master in memory of his
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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        Hello Ma-li and All,
        First, I'd like to point out that Kata-Daki
        (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell.
        Paul created this Female ECK Master in
        memory of his sister and nine years after
        her death.

        Anyway, I'd like to insert my comments
        (below) to what has been shared.

        Ma-li wrote:

        "Looks like the few Eckists thee were
        in this area back in the beginning,
        missed the boat on the 7th initiations
        by the late 80s -early 90s. The highest
        there was then was a 4th. Oh well..."

        ME: Some remote areas didn't have many
        (any) H.I.s because most chelas need to
        gain the attention of the powers that be
        (the RESA).

        "If I am understanding you, people like
        me will never get further because we
        don't have the resources, have health
        issues, or may have pissed off someone
        higher up who is now in a position of
        power re: initiations etc. Gee, do you
        think when the RESA's best friend takes
        it upon herself to write ESC that another
        chela isn't an active member, that it would
        make a difference? Especially, if that person
        then becomes RESA after the friend steps
        down a year later, and remains there for
        over a decade."

        ME: Well, for promotion one needs to
        become an Active Vahana (explorer) by
        doing and participating in Intros or Book
        Discussions or even teaching a Satsang
        Class. Of course, one needs to be "trained"
        and "have a solid foundation in the EK
        teachings." Thus, just having an "Active"
        (current & paid) ECK membership is not
        enough. Eckankar is an "Outer" religion
        just like all others!

        "In the above instance, I was an active
        member in as much that I paid my
        yearly membership, wrote reports,
        and went to functions when I was able.
        I just wasn't in the same class as the
        above mentioned people. I was a small
        business owner, they were in the medical
        profession by marriage. I didn't have the
        money or the time they had to devote
        to promoting Eckanakar. Maybe I'm all
        wet about this, but I noticed after ESC
        was told by this 4th that I was inactive,
        other chela's kept getting their initiations,
        but I never got another one. At some
        point I didn't really care anymore, and
        there were too many inconsistencies
        about many things in the ECK community.
        I have never been an ass kisser, and don't
        plan to start at this point. lol"

        ME: It seems that there are a lot of chiropractors,
        acupuncturists, and massage therapists in
        ECKankar. The former doesn't have the same
        prestige (and vanity) associated with it than
        the other two have. But, yes, the friends of
        the RESA will be promoted faster than others
        who are more spiritually advanced.

        "I do know that when word gets out that
        I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends
        with several of the people...not by my choice,
        but by theirs. Then the gossip will fly, and
        all sorts of things that aren't true will be
        spread about the area. Small price to pay
        for freedom."

        ME: It is true that many ECKists won't want
        to associate with you. Some will be fearful
        to hear the Truth, and some will see it as
        being Negative. They won't want to be "infected,"
        or have others (higher up) think they are in
        agreement with some of your newly found
        perspectives and insights. They don't want
        to be Black Listed, too, on initiations.

        "In short, guess I didn't play the game
        very well. Of course, I never knew there
        was a game when it came to one's spiritual
        beliefs. Thought we were all on the same
        page, and were there for spiritual growth.
        Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the
        business world, and the little, honest,
        hardworking guy gets stepped on by
        those wanting whatever place of power
        was available. I don't understand the
        need for power, and for causing grief
        for others. Power makes for strange
        bedfellows."

        ME: No, you didn't play-the-game well
        at all! Catch-22! Klemp mentions in his
        accounts from being locked-up, in that
        Mental Institution, that he learned to
        "play-the-game" (PTG) with the psychologist
        in order to be released early. HK used this
        same PTG technique when he worked under
        DG at the ESC by maintaining a wimpy facade
        to disarm Gross. Darwin needed someone
        who wanted to "write" and wimpy HK was
        the obvious choice. Thus, DG promoted
        Klemp with even more of Higher Initiations
        and was unaware of Klemp's own power
        game!


        "The thing that appealed to me in the
        beginning was that Eckankar was an
        individual path. In a way that's BS, and
        I see that now. Makes me wonder about
        the many who are new to the path. When,
        if ever, will they reach the point I've reached,
        and will they be as confused about it as
        I've been? I didn't have a clue about all
        the things that have gone down until
        I read some of the links on your group
        home page. Blew my mind, to say the
        least. So much deception, outright lies,
        and corruption by those we put our trust
        in. Eckankar, the path that was supposed
        to be different, is no different that any other
        religion. Granted, there is truth to be learned
        from studying it, but then, there is truth in
        all religions. We just have to discern what's
        truth from what's garbage."

        ME: ECKankar does start out as something
        quite different from the end results! Way
        back it did seem to be more "spiritual" and
        an "individual path." Many of Twitchell's
        plagiarized concepts were very intriguing
        until one discovers that many of these were
        taken from other fraudulent religions based
        upon lies and myth and "tweaked" for the
        Western New Age mindset.

        "Did Paul just make up the number he used
        as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
        of his religion? If he made it all up, how did
        he get away with the plagerism etc.?"

        ME: As for the number 971 that's a puzzle,
        except, Twitchell did die in the month of
        September (9) and in the year 1971 (9/71)!
        Ironic, that this is probably the only prophecy
        that Twitchell got right, and PT didn't even
        know what it really pertained to! Karma? LOL!

        "Was the "new" female ECK Master also
        a fabrication by HK to pacify the women
        coming to the path? Seems I can remember
        someone telling me many years ago that
        there could never be a female because
        of energies, or such."

        ME: Well, according to EK Dogma there
        can't be a Female LEM/Mahanta or Mahanta
        in Training. However, there can be Female
        12th Initiates who are ECK Masters and
        are Not LEM/Mahantas. Kata Daki, otherwise,
        wouldn't be called an ECK Master and listed
        as a member of the Vairagi Order. Unless,
        of course, she received her 12th on the
        "Inner." However, even the LEM/Mahanta
        has the "outer confirmation" of the 12th
        initiation.

        "How do you clip these posts in Yahoo
        so that they don't go on forever and ever?"

        ME: I first highlight the text I want to "reply to"
        (before replying) then go to "edit" and "copy"
        it. I then "reply" and do a "delete" of the whole
        text before doing a "paste" of what I "copied."
        You should also do a "preview" before posting.
        You might want to go back and do more "editing"
        before "previewing" it again and then "sending"
        the final version. Just make sure that everyone
        knows who said what. -Prometheus
        p.s. I had to edit and repost this so those getting
        the emails will have two similar ones.

        Namaste
        Ma-li

        Prometheus wrote:

        Hello Mi-li and All,
        Many of those active chelas joining EK
        in 1973, under Darwin, had become
        7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
        1991. Many others remained 6ths.
        However, most of those who have the
        6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
        the 7th when they become RESAs. This
        is how HK maintains a reserve for the
        RESA position.

        Klemp did replace some of those, of high
        rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
        but then he slowed other initiations down
        due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
        pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
        Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
        initiations above the 5th and, especially,
        with any above the 7th!

        What's really ironic is that those chelas
        Darwin skipped initiations on or who
        were only 4ths for a few months before
        getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
        Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
        the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
        and Company all of their "fast tracked"
        initiations!

        Now, however, a 5th needs to become
        a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
        they will be eligible for the 6th, and
        a 6th needs to become an ESA before
        they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
        this process can vary some depending
        upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
        of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
        through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
        and RESA ass kissing!

        In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
        are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
        List" comes down from the ESC. They do
        this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
        why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
        cases it's the computer generated list based
        on one's membership date and last initiation
        date and the approval of local H.I.s that
        determine whether or not someone will
        or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
        the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

        If most ECKists knew how initiations were
        really done they would know that the rest
        of the crap about "inner communication"
        with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

        FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
        with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
        etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
        Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
        membership current too. Otherwise, one
        can/will get passed over for initiation.

        Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
        basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
        And, one has to watch one's "language."
        You cannot share other beliefs and question
        or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
        myth or prediction is one such thing that
        would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
        are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
        see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
        basis need to know how to play-the-game.

        BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
        to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
        give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
        year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
        wants to go down in history as the biggest
        and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
        Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
        training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
        anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
        This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Ma-li and All, I was being asked to approve or disapprove potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA. I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
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          Hello Ma-li and All,
          I was being asked to approve or disapprove
          potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
          I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
          Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
          universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
          and others within the hierarchy to do the more
          basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
          hierarchy! Catch-22!

          When one wants and needs to believe there is
          always a way for the mind to rationalize.
          It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
          to the Truth because that would mean detaching
          oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
          their society of friends; the dogma that freed
          them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
          see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
          a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
          own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
          Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
          Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
          created EK from what he read and learned on a
          personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
          Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
          and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
          and powers that made them beyond reproach.
          Catch-22 again!

          And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
          protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
          Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
          talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
          ECK Temple and the ESC?

          Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
          to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
          more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
          been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
          "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
          so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
          I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
          towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
          Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
          without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

          Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
          and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
          (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
          Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
          have the most to lose.

          But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
          Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
          and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
          their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
          their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
          Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
          their Silence.

          And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
          They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
          Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
          and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
          and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
          Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

          Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
          only the strong can break the ties that have bound
          generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
          or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
          self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
          who couldn't function in the real world.


          Prometheus

          Ma-li wrote:

          You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
          has been to learn that something I really believed
          in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
          that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
          financial gain, for power, and without a thought
          for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
          actually bought into the "dream".

          Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
          I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
          and if I'd approve one.

          B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
          idea why she was asking me since she never
          wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
          I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
          such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
          didn't get along...B had told me many times of
          the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
          she's the one who told me the other had written
          ESC that I was inactive.

          Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
          or initiations, until years later when I began to
          wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
          knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
          about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
          things weren't as they seemed.

          Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
          I would recommend the initiation. I know she
          didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
          to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
          anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
          bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
          the back peddaling the former RESA did when
          I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
          and always "because the Mahanta said so".
          Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
          the inner" that concerned me.

          If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
          friends, they would be horrified, and I would
          be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on
          the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
          to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
          still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
          big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

          Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

          Namaste
          Ma-li

          drubezarne wrote:

          Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
          would ask my opinion about other eckists up
          for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
          was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
          omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
          kind of thing. He would know everything and
          make his determination based on a person's
          spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
          showing he's a fake.

          Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
          didn't make up, he stole from other writers
          and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
          Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
          a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
          from his mentor that writing books was not
          going to get him rich and give him the recognition
          he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
          put himself at the head of it.

          He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
          It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
          to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
          Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
          You're never going to hear back from any of them.

          Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
          being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
          followers. He never explained how a female
          becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
          says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

          It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
          by expressing your doubts on this forum.

          Regards
          Liska
        • Leanne Thompson
          Hi prometheus_973. I just had an EVIL thought. Can one call in as a pretend friend of an HI or RESA and recommend yourself ? Or any way of fooling them.
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
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            Hi prometheus_973. I just had an "EVIL" thought. Can one call in as a "pretend" friend of an HI or RESA and recommend "yourself"? Or any way of fooling them.
             
            Leanne

            --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 11:54 AM

            Hello Ma-li and All,
            I was being asked to approve or disapprove
            potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
            I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
            Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
            universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
            and others within the hierarchy to do the more
            basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
            hierarchy! Catch-22!

            When one wants and needs to believe there is
            always a way for the mind to rationalize.
            It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
            to the Truth because that would mean detaching
            oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
            their society of friends; the dogma that freed
            them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
            see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
            a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
            own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
            Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
            Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
            created EK from what he read and learned on a
            personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
            Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
            and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
            and powers that made them beyond reproach.
            Catch-22 again!

            And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
            protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
            Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
            talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
            ECK Temple and the ESC?

            Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
            to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
            more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
            been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
            "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
            so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
            I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
            towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
            Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
            without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

            Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
            and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
            (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
            Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
            have the most to lose.

            But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
            Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
            and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
            their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
            their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
            Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
            their Silence.

            And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
            They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
            Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
            and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
            and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
            Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

            Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
            only the strong can break the ties that have bound
            generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
            or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
            self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
            who couldn't function in the real world.


            Prometheus

            Ma-li wrote:

            You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
            has been to learn that something I really believed
            in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
            that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
            financial gain, for power, and without a thought
            for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
            actually bought into the "dream".

            Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
            I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
            and if I'd approve one.

            B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
            idea why she was asking me since she never
            wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
            I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
            such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
            didn't get along...B had told me many times of
            the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
            she's the one who told me the other had written
            ESC that I was inactive.

            Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
            or initiations, until years later when I began to
            wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
            knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
            about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
            things weren't as they seemed.

            Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
            I would recommend the initiation. I know she
            didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
            to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
            anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
            bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
            the back peddaling the former RESA did when
            I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
            and always "because the Mahanta said so".
            Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
            the inner" that concerned me.

            If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
            friends, they would be horrified, and I would
            be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
            the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
            to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
            still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
            big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

            Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

            Namaste
            Ma-li

            drubezarne wrote:

            Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
            would ask my opinion about other eckists up
            for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
            was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
            omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
            kind of thing. He would know everything and
            make his determination based on a person's
            spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
            showing he's a fake.

            Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
            didn't make up, he stole from other writers
            and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
            Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
            a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
            from his mentor that writing books was not
            going to get him rich and give him the recognition
            he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
            put himself at the head of it.

            He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
            It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
            to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
            Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
            You're never going to hear back from any of them.

            Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
            being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
            followers. He never explained how a female
            becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
            says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

            It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
            by expressing your doubts on this forum.

            Regards
            Liska


          • prometheus_973
            Hi Leanne and All, No, the RESA or another H.I. calls you to check out someone for initiation. You don t call them, unless, you have a complaint to file. Now
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Leanne and All,
              No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
              you to check out someone for initiation.
              You don't call them, unless, you have
              a complaint to file. Now this could
              screw someone for initiation! And
              often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
              out the complaint fully, or get the
              other side of the story. It all depends.

              Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
              in place they will sometimes stick together
              and accept gossip when a sister has been
              "wronged," or "offended."

              Sometimes they have been "wronged"
              by another EK female or by an EK male.
              There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
              there and sometimes guys will hit on
              newbies because their own marriage
              was, basically, over with. Or, lower
              initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

              Some EK women don't like being dumped
              or rejected and can be very vindictive and
              tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
              seem strange to hear because ECKists have
              the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
              than regular non-ECKists... right?

              Complaints can affect one's next initiation
              if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
              call. Of course some of these ECKists have
              just had their egos bruised, or are off their
              meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
              seldom look at these possibilities if the person
              filing the complaint has the "credentials."

              Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
              and one person tried to drag me into the
              middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
              an eye on things better, but still had to do
              some damage control once. There were some
              chelas that were really good manipulators
              and were always the victim. To keep the peace
              I had to walk on egg shells around some and
              one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

              It was really nice leaving this crap behind
              when I left ECKankar. There are just too
              many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
              and one is always having to "act" a part and
              be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
              and will make people really crazy (crazier).


              Prometheus



              Hi prometheus,
              I just had an "EVIL" thought.
              Can one call in as a "pretend"
              friend of an HI or RESA and
              recommend "yourself"?
              Or any way of fooling them.

              Leanne

              prometheus wrote:

              Hello Ma-li and All,
              I was being asked to approve or disapprove
              potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
              I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
              Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
              universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
              and others within the hierarchy to do the more
              basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
              hierarchy! Catch-22!

              When one wants and needs to believe there is
              always a way for the mind to rationalize.
              It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
              to the Truth because that would mean detaching
              oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
              their society of friends; the dogma that freed
              them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
              see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
              a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
              own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
              Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
              Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
              created EK from what he read and learned on a
              personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
              Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
              and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
              and powers that made them beyond reproach.
              Catch-22 again!

              And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
              protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
              Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
              talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
              ECK Temple and the ESC?

              Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
              to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
              more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
              been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
              "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
              so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
              I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
              towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
              Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
              without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

              Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
              and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
              (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
              Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
              have the most to lose.

              But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
              Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
              and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
              their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
              their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
              Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
              their Silence.

              And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
              They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
              Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
              and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
              and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
              Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

              Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
              only the strong can break the ties that have bound
              generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
              or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
              self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
              who couldn't function in the real world.


              Prometheus

              Ma-li wrote:

              You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
              has been to learn that something I really believed
              in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
              that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
              financial gain, for power, and without a thought
              for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
              actually bought into the "dream".

              Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
              I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
              and if I'd approve one.

              B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
              idea why she was asking me since she never
              wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
              I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
              such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
              didn't get along...B had told me many times of
              the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
              she's the one who told me the other had written
              ESC that I was inactive.

              Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
              or initiations, until years later when I began to
              wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
              knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
              about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
              things weren't as they seemed.

              Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
              I would recommend the initiation. I know she
              didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
              to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
              anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
              bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
              the back peddaling the former RESA did when
              I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
              and always "because the Mahanta said so".
              Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
              the inner" that concerned me.

              If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
              friends, they would be horrified, and I would
              be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
              the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
              to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
              still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
              big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

              Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

              Namaste
              Ma-li

              drubezarne wrote:

              Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
              would ask my opinion about other eckists up
              for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
              was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
              omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
              kind of thing. He would know everything and
              make his determination based on a person's
              spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
              showing he's a fake.

              Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
              didn't make up, he stole from other writers
              and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
              Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
              a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
              from his mentor that writing books was not
              going to get him rich and give him the recognition
              he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
              put himself at the head of it.

              He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
              It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
              to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
              Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
              You're never going to hear back from any of them.

              Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
              being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
              followers. He never explained how a female
              becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
              says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

              It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
              by expressing your doubts on this forum.

              Regards
              Liska
            • Leanne Thompson
              Even calling headquarters wont work? Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.   Leanne ... From: prometheus_973
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 10, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Even calling headquarters wont work?
                Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.
                 
                Leanne

                --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 9:01 PM

                Hi Leanne and All,
                No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                you to check out someone for initiation.
                You don't call them, unless, you have
                a complaint to file. Now this could
                screw someone for initiation! And
                often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                out the complaint fully, or get the
                other side of the story. It all depends.

                Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                in place they will sometimes stick together
                and accept gossip when a sister has been
                "wronged," or "offended."

                Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                by another EK female or by an EK male.
                There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                there and sometimes guys will hit on
                newbies because their own marriage
                was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                Some EK women don't like being dumped
                or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                than regular non-ECKists. .. right?

                Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                filing the complaint has the "credentials. "

                Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                and one person tried to drag me into the
                middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                an eye on things better, but still had to do
                some damage control once. There were some
                chelas that were really good manipulators
                and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                and one is always having to "act" a part and
                be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                Prometheus


                Hi prometheus,
                I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                Can one call in as a "pretend"
                friend of an HI or RESA and
                recommend "yourself"?
                Or any way of fooling them.

                Leanne

                prometheus wrote:

                Hello Ma-li and All,
                I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                hierarchy! Catch-22!

                When one wants and needs to believe there is
                always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                created EK from what he read and learned on a
                personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                Catch-22 again!

                And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                ECK Temple and the ESC?

                Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                have the most to lose.

                But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                their Silence.

                And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                who couldn't function in the real world.

                Prometheus

                Ma-li wrote:

                You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                has been to learn that something I really believed
                in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                actually bought into the "dream".

                Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                and if I'd approve one.

                B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                idea why she was asking me since she never
                wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                she's the one who told me the other had written
                ESC that I was inactive.

                Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                or initiations, until years later when I began to
                wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                things weren't as they seemed.

                Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                the inner" that concerned me.

                If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                Namaste
                Ma-li

                drubezarne wrote:

                Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                kind of thing. He would know everything and
                make his determination based on a person's
                spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                showing he's a fake.

                Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                from his mentor that writing books was not
                going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                put himself at the head of it.

                He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                followers. He never explained how a female
                becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                Regards
                Liska


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