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Re: I'm new here...

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  • drubezarne
    Ma-li, I ve been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp was what he claimed to be
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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      Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
      about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
      was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
      be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
      his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
      another example showing he's a fake.

      Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
      from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
      Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
      writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
      get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
      religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

      He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
      Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
      writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
      plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

      Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
      to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
      becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
      be the Living Eck Master.

      It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
      your doubts on this forum.

      Regards
      Liska




      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
      <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
      >
      > Good Morning All,
      >  
      > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
      beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
      -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
      >  
      > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
      because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
      pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
      initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
      it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
      member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
      then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
      remains there for over a decade.
      >  
      > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
      my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
      able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
      I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
      marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
      promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
      after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
      getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
      I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
      about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
      kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
      >  
      > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
      longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
      by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
      aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
      freedom.
      >  
      > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
      never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
      Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
      growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
      and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
      wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
      need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
      strange bedfellows.
      >  
      > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
      an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
      wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
      they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
      it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
      gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
      Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
      corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
      supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
      Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
      there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
      from what's garbage.
      >  
      > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
      the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
      away with the plagerism etc.? 
      >  
      > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
      the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
      many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
      or such. 
      >  
      > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
      forever and ever?
      >  
      > Namaste
      > Ma-li
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      >
      > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello Mi-li and All,
      > Many of those active chelas joining EK
      > in 1973, under Darwin, had become
      > 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
      > 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
      > However, most of those who have the
      > 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
      > the 7th when they become RESAs. This
      > is how HK maintains a reserve for the
      > RESA position.
      >
      > Klemp did replace some of those, of high
      > rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
      > but then he slowed other initiations down
      > due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
      > pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
      > Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
      > initiations above the 5th and, especially,
      > with any above the 7th!
      >
      > What's really ironic is that those chelas
      > Darwin skipped initiations on or who
      > were only 4ths for a few months before
      > getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
      > Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
      > the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
      > and Company all of their "fast tracked"
      > initiations!
      >
      > Now, however, a 5th needs to become
      > a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
      > they will be eligible for the 6th, and
      > a 6th needs to become an ESA before
      > they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
      > this process can vary some depending
      > upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
      > of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
      > through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
      > and RESA ass kissing!
      >
      > In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
      > are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
      > List" comes down from the ESC. They do
      > this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
      > why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
      > cases it's the computer generated list based
      > on one's membership date and last initiation
      > date and the approval of local H.I.s that
      > determine whether or not someone will
      > or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
      > the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
      >
      > If most ECKists knew how initiations were
      > really done they would know that the rest
      > of the crap about "inner communication"
      > with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
      >
      > FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
      > with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
      > etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
      > Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
      > membership current too. Otherwise, one
      > can/will get passed over for initiation.
      >
      > Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
      > basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
      > And, one has to watch one's "language."
      > You cannot share other beliefs and question
      > or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
      > myth or prediction is one such thing that
      > would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
      > are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
      > see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
      > basis need to know how to play-the-game.
      >
      > BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
      > to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
      > give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
      > year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
      > wants to go down in history as the biggest
      > and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
      > Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
      > training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
      > anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
      > This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > Hello Prometheus,
      >
      > Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
      know how to use
      > Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
      shouldn't have.
      >
      > Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
      the lifetime
      > membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
      that after all these
      > years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
      When I would quesstion the
      > RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
      down because too
      > many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
      I know...I was just
      > a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
      about it or there
      > would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
      forever. lol
      >
      > Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
      there with the big
      > boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
      cracked up to be, or
      > was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
      5th's no longer
      > automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
      grandfathered in because I
      > had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
      give much thought to
      > my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
      much interaction with
      > people in public settings.
      >
      > Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
      sign a form so they can
      > have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
      make sure I wasn't a
      > child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
      was for insurance
      > purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
      various other friends who
      > are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
      had to have
      > background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
      to more government
      > interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
      had just been
      > informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
      gives the gov't access
      > to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
      ticked me off.
      >
      > Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
      bow to their wishes, or to
      > talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
      to send back my
      > certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
      place, and had no idea
      > such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
      end of it. How much
      > attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
      passed between
      > initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
      Computers are
      > marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
      "on the inner". Oops.
      >
      > Namaste
      > Ma-li
      >
      > Prometheus wrote:
      > Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
      >
      > I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
      > quarters) did recently to make you feel
      > uncomfortable and for you to have even
      > more misgivings. What are some of the
      > things that just don't feel right to you
      > anymore? Please share more.
      >
      > It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
      > is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
      > just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
      > permitted to question things like the
      > need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
      > or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
      > fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
      >
      > Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
      > had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
      > were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
      > were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
      > and fake.
      >
      > The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
      > phenomena and appeared when people were
      > trying to make a positive impression when
      > around other ECKists, or were so detached,
      > aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
      > with any empathy, as to what others were
      > going through. Some actually believed
      > they were having a "spiritual experience."
      > One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
      > feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
      > and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
      > However, for those who really "believed"
      > it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
      > or psychic experience just like with any other
      > feel good religion. Many times it was just an
      > "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > Skypilot4mr Wrote:
      > I am a new member of this group,
      > and don't know exactly how to do
      > things here. So, I am just jumping
      > in with an email to introduce myself.
      >
      > I have been a member of Eckankar
      > since 1973, and have been debating
      > with myself for the last few years about
      > leaving the path. There are just too many
      > things that don't feel right to me anymore.
      >
      > I live in a rural community, have a disability
      > that precludes my going to ECK functions,
      > and there is no one in the ECK community
      > in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
      > talking to about my misgivings. They still
      > have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
      > I feel there must be something wrong with
      > me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
      >
      > After reading a few posts on this site,
      > I now realize there are others like me
      > who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
      > if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
      > doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
      > especially after what headquarters did
      > recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
      > go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
      > blind right now.
      >
      > Hope to get to know you folks better,
      > and you get to know me too.
      >
      > Skypilot4mr
      >
    • mishmisha9
      Hello, Ma-li! I m enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : ) Regarding your question about how Paul got away with making eckankar and the eck masters
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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        Hello, Ma-li!

        I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

        Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
        making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
        different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
        are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
        lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

        As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
        wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
        to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
        physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
        devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

        But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
        female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
        had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
        Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
        of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
        Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
        Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
        And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
        those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
        Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
        showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
        Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
        this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
        what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
        his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
        on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
        which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
        that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
        difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
        publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
        deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
        master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
        Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

        BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
        links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
        Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
        and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

        I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
        eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
        Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

        Mish

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
        >
        > Good Morning All,
        >  
        > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
        on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
        Oh well...
        >  
        > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
        the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
        in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
        takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
        make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
        down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
        >  
        > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
        membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
        same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
        the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
        devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
        told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
        got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
        inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
        and don't plan to start at this point. lol
        >  
        > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
        several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
        sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
        freedom.
        >  
        > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
        game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
        were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
        and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
        of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
        others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
        >  
        > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
        path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
        new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
        confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
        down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
        least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
        Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
        religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
        all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
        >  
        > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
        of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
        >  
        > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
        to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
        never be a female because of energies, or such. 
        >  
        > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
        >  
        > Namaste
        > Ma-li
      • Ma-li
        You have no idea what a kick in the butt this has been to learn that something I really believed in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....that
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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          You have no idea what a kick in the butt this has been to learn that something I really believed in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for financial gain, for power, and without a thought for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who actually bought into the "dream".
           
          Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable, and if I'd approve one.  B. was dying of cancer.  At the time I had no idea why she was asking me since she never wanted my opinion on anything else.  Of course, I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was such a dedicated Eckist.  I knew the two women didn't get along...B had told me many times of the nasty things the other did and said.  In fact, she's the one who told me the other had written ESC that I was inactive.  Anyway,  I thought no more about the incident or initiations, until years later when I began to wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th about someone's innitiation.  I suspected then that things weren't as they seemed.
           
          Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if I would recommend the initiation.  I know she didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted to refuse B her dying wish.  Doesn't matter now anyway.  This whole subject brings up a lot of bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of the back peddaling the former RESA did when I asked about things.  There was always an excuse, and always "because the Mahanta said so".  Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on the inner" that concerned me. 
           
          If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck friends, they would be horrified, and I would be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on the outside....way out of the loop.  It feels good to unload what has been on my mind, but there's still a little voice saying I'm going to get into big trouble for this.  Sure hope it's just paranoia.
           
          Thanks for the link.  I'll read it later today.
           
          Namaste
          Ma-li
           
            


          --- On Sat, 11/8/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
          From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:53 AM

          Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
          about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
          was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
          be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
          his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
          another example showing he's a fake.

          Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
          from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
          Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
          writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
          get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
          religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

          He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
          Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
          writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
          plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

          Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
          to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
          becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
          be the Living Eck Master.

          It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
          your doubts on this forum.

          Regards
          Liska

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
          <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Good Morning All,
          >  
          > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
          beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
          -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
          >  
          > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
          because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
          pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
          initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
          it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
          member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
          then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
          remains there for over a decade.
          >  
          > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
          my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
          able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
          I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
          marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
          promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
          after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
          getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
          I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
          about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
          kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
          >  
          > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
          longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
          by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
          aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
          freedom.
          >  
          > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
          never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
          Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
          growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
          and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
          wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
          need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
          strange bedfellows.
          >  
          > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
          an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
          wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
          they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
          it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
          gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
          Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
          corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
          supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
          Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
          there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
          from what's garbage.
          >  
          > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
          the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
          away with the plagerism etc.? 
          >  
          > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
          the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
          many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
          or such. 
          >  
          > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
          forever and ever?
          >  
          > Namaste
          > Ma-li
          >  
          >  
          >  
          >  
          >
          >
          > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...>
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: I'm new here...
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello Mi-li and All,
          > Many of those active chelas joining EK
          > in 1973, under Darwin, had become
          > 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
          > 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
          > However, most of those who have the
          > 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
          > the 7th when they become RESAs. This
          > is how HK maintains a reserve for the
          > RESA position.
          >
          > Klemp did replace some of those, of high
          > rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
          > but then he slowed other initiations down
          > due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
          > pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
          > Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
          > initiations above the 5th and, especially,
          > with any above the 7th!
          >
          > What's really ironic is that those chelas
          > Darwin skipped initiations on or who
          > were only 4ths for a few months before
          > getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
          > Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
          > the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
          > and Company all of their "fast tracked"
          > initiations!
          >
          > Now, however, a 5th needs to become
          > a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
          > they will be eligible for the 6th, and
          > a 6th needs to become an ESA before
          > they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
          > this process can vary some depending
          > upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
          > of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
          > through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
          > and RESA ass kissing!
          >
          > In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
          > are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
          > List" comes down from the ESC. They do
          > this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
          > why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
          > cases it's the computer generated list based
          > on one's membership date and last initiation
          > date and the approval of local H.I.s that
          > determine whether or not someone will
          > or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
          > the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
          >
          > If most ECKists knew how initiations were
          > really done they would know that the rest
          > of the crap about "inner communication"
          > with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
          >
          > FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
          > with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
          > etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
          > Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
          > membership current too. Otherwise, one
          > can/will get passed over for initiation.
          >
          > Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
          > basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
          > And, one has to watch one's "language."
          > You cannot share other beliefs and question
          > or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
          > myth or prediction is one such thing that
          > would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
          > are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
          > see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
          > basis need to know how to play-the-game.
          >
          > BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
          > to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
          > give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
          > year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
          > wants to go down in history as the biggest
          > and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
          > Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
          > training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
          > anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
          > This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > Hello Prometheus,
          >
          > Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
          know how to use
          > Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
          shouldn't have.
          >
          > Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
          the lifetime
          > membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
          that after all these
          > years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
          When I would quesstion the
          > RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
          down because too
          > many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
          I know...I was just
          > a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
          about it or there
          > would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
          forever. lol
          >
          > Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
          there with the big
          > boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
          cracked up to be, or
          > was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
          5th's no longer
          > automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
          grandfathered in because I
          > had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
          give much thought to
          > my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
          much interaction with
          > people in public settings.
          >
          > Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
          sign a form so they can
          > have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
          make sure I wasn't a
          > child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
          was for insurance
          > purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
          various other friends who
          > are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
          had to have
          > background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
          to more government
          > interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
          had just been
          > informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
          gives the gov't access
          > to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
          ticked me off.
          >
          > Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
          bow to their wishes, or to
          > talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
          to send back my
          > certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
          place, and had no idea
          > such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
          end of it. How much
          > attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
          passed between
          > initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
          Computers are
          > marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
          "on the inner". Oops.
          >
          > Namaste
          > Ma-li
          >
          > Prometheus wrote:
          > Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
          >
          > I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
          > quarters) did recently to make you feel
          > uncomfortable and for you to have even
          > more misgivings. What are some of the
          > things that just don't feel right to you
          > anymore? Please share more.
          >
          > It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
          > is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
          > just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
          > permitted to question things like the
          > need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
          > or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
          > fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
          >
          > Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
          > had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
          > were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
          > were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
          > and fake.
          >
          > The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
          > phenomena and appeared when people were
          > trying to make a positive impression when
          > around other ECKists, or were so detached,
          > aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
          > with any empathy, as to what others were
          > going through. Some actually believed
          > they were having a "spiritual experience."
          > One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
          > feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
          > and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
          > However, for those who really "believed"
          > it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
          > or psychic experience just like with any other
          > feel good religion. Many times it was just an
          > "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > Skypilot4mr Wrote:
          > I am a new member of this group,
          > and don't know exactly how to do
          > things here. So, I am just jumping
          > in with an email to introduce myself.
          >
          > I have been a member of Eckankar
          > since 1973, and have been debating
          > with myself for the last few years about
          > leaving the path. There are just too many
          > things that don't feel right to me anymore.
          >
          > I live in a rural community, have a disability
          > that precludes my going to ECK functions,
          > and there is no one in the ECK community
          > in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
          > talking to about my misgivings. They still
          > have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
          > I feel there must be something wrong with
          > me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
          >
          > After reading a few posts on this site,
          > I now realize there are others like me
          > who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
          > if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
          > doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
          > especially after what headquarters did
          > recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
          > go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
          > blind right now.
          >
          > Hope to get to know you folks better,
          > and you get to know me too.
          >
          > Skypilot4mr
          >


        • Ma-li
          Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.   I
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.
             
            I was thinking about the same thing shortly before your post came in.  If the internet had been around back then, Paul wouldn't have gotten away with all this stuff.  On the other hand, just from limited experience in this area with local eckists, if they accidently found this group, they would not believe one word of it.  Even if they read all the files, they'd say it was just malcontents who couldn't handle being true eckists.  Even my best friend, with whom I tried to discuss my feelings about all this, thinks I'm way off center.  She said, and I quote, "I'll bet this is just a test before you get your 6th".  BS!!!  If that were true, why would I have been having doubts for 5 years or more!
             
            Interesting about Joan.  Are you saying what I think you are saying?  It will be interesting to read his new book....when and if he ever writes one that isn't just chela experiences.
             
            Oh, the thread you all were on before .......why would HK need security people surrounding him, and why would he have any need for a flak vest????  He's supposed to be our protector against all sorts of bad stuff.  Can't he even protect himself?  I know, this is part of his disorder.  Never though he might have mental problems even tho' he did get naked at the airport way back when.  Oh lord, this is all too much for me to digest right now.
             
            I certainly hope having my eyes opened is spiritual growth 'cause if it ain't, then I'm in deep doodoo.
             
            Namaste
            Ma-li
             
             

            --- On Sat, 11/8/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
            From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:57 AM

            Hello, Ma-li!

            I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

            Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
            making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
            different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
            are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
            lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

            As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
            wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
            to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
            physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
            devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

            But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
            female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
            had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
            Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
            of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
            Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
            Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
            And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
            those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
            Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
            showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
            Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
            this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
            what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
            his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
            on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
            which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
            that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
            difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
            publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
            deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
            master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
            Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

            BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
            links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
            Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
            and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

            I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
            eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
            Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Good Morning All,
            >  
            > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
            on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
            Oh well...
            >  
            > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
            the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
            in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
            takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
            make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
            down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
            >  
            > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
            membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
            same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
            the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
            devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
            told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
            got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
            inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
            and don't plan to start at this point. lol
            >  
            > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
            several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
            sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
            freedom.
            >  
            > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
            game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
            were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
            and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
            of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
            others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
            >  
            > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
            path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
            new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
            confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
            down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
            least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
            Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
            religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
            all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
            >  
            > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
            of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
            >  
            > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
            to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
            never be a female because of energies, or such. 
            >  
            > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
            >  
            > Namaste
            > Ma-li



          • prometheus_973
            Hello Ma-li and All, First, I d like to point out that Kata-Daki (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell. Paul created this Female ECK Master in memory of his
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Ma-li and All,
              First, I'd like to point out that Kata-Daki
              (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell.
              Paul created this Female ECK Master in
              memory of his sister and nine years after
              her death.

              Anyway, I'd like to insert my comments
              (below) to what has been shared.

              Ma-li wrote:

              "Looks like the few Eckists thee were
              in this area back in the beginning,
              missed the boat on the 7th initiations
              by the late 80s -early 90s. The highest
              there was then was a 4th. Oh well..."

              ME: Some remote areas didn't have many
              (any) H.I.s because most chelas need to
              gain the attention of the powers that be
              (the RESA).

              "If I am understanding you, people like
              me will never get further because we
              don't have the resources, have health
              issues, or may have pissed off someone
              higher up who is now in a position of
              power re: initiations etc. Gee, do you
              think when the RESA's best friend takes
              it upon herself to write ESC that another
              chela isn't an active member, that it would
              make a difference? Especially, if that person
              then becomes RESA after the friend steps
              down a year later, and remains there for
              over a decade."

              ME: Well, for promotion one needs to
              become an Active Vahana (explorer) by
              doing and participating in Intros or Book
              Discussions or even teaching a Satsang
              Class. Of course, one needs to be "trained"
              and "have a solid foundation in the EK
              teachings." Thus, just having an "Active"
              (current & paid) ECK membership is not
              enough. Eckankar is an "Outer" religion
              just like all others!

              "In the above instance, I was an active
              member in as much that I paid my
              yearly membership, wrote reports,
              and went to functions when I was able.
              I just wasn't in the same class as the
              above mentioned people. I was a small
              business owner, they were in the medical
              profession by marriage. I didn't have the
              money or the time they had to devote
              to promoting Eckanakar. Maybe I'm all
              wet about this, but I noticed after ESC
              was told by this 4th that I was inactive,
              other chela's kept getting their initiations,
              but I never got another one. At some
              point I didn't really care anymore, and
              there were too many inconsistencies
              about many things in the ECK community.
              I have never been an ass kisser, and don't
              plan to start at this point. lol"

              ME: It seems that there are a lot of chiropractors,
              acupuncturists, and massage therapists in
              ECKankar. The former doesn't have the same
              prestige (and vanity) associated with it than
              the other two have. But, yes, the friends of
              the RESA will be promoted faster than others
              who are more spiritually advanced.

              "I do know that when word gets out that
              I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends
              with several of the people...not by my choice,
              but by theirs. Then the gossip will fly, and
              all sorts of things that aren't true will be
              spread about the area. Small price to pay
              for freedom."

              ME: It is true that many ECKists won't want
              to associate with you. Some will be fearful
              to hear the Truth, and some will see it as
              being Negative. They won't want to be "infected,"
              or have others (higher up) think they are in
              agreement with some of your newly found
              perspectives and insights. They don't want
              to be Black Listed, too, on initiations.

              "In short, guess I didn't play the game
              very well. Of course, I never knew there
              was a game when it came to one's spiritual
              beliefs. Thought we were all on the same
              page, and were there for spiritual growth.
              Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the
              business world, and the little, honest,
              hardworking guy gets stepped on by
              those wanting whatever place of power
              was available. I don't understand the
              need for power, and for causing grief
              for others. Power makes for strange
              bedfellows."

              ME: No, you didn't play-the-game well
              at all! Catch-22! Klemp mentions in his
              accounts from being locked-up, in that
              Mental Institution, that he learned to
              "play-the-game" (PTG) with the psychologist
              in order to be released early. HK used this
              same PTG technique when he worked under
              DG at the ESC by maintaining a wimpy facade
              to disarm Gross. Darwin needed someone
              who wanted to "write" and wimpy HK was
              the obvious choice. Thus, DG promoted
              Klemp with even more of Higher Initiations
              and was unaware of Klemp's own power
              game!


              "The thing that appealed to me in the
              beginning was that Eckankar was an
              individual path. In a way that's BS, and
              I see that now. Makes me wonder about
              the many who are new to the path. When,
              if ever, will they reach the point I've reached,
              and will they be as confused about it as
              I've been? I didn't have a clue about all
              the things that have gone down until
              I read some of the links on your group
              home page. Blew my mind, to say the
              least. So much deception, outright lies,
              and corruption by those we put our trust
              in. Eckankar, the path that was supposed
              to be different, is no different that any other
              religion. Granted, there is truth to be learned
              from studying it, but then, there is truth in
              all religions. We just have to discern what's
              truth from what's garbage."

              ME: ECKankar does start out as something
              quite different from the end results! Way
              back it did seem to be more "spiritual" and
              an "individual path." Many of Twitchell's
              plagiarized concepts were very intriguing
              until one discovers that many of these were
              taken from other fraudulent religions based
              upon lies and myth and "tweaked" for the
              Western New Age mindset.

              "Did Paul just make up the number he used
              as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
              of his religion? If he made it all up, how did
              he get away with the plagerism etc.?"

              ME: As for the number 971 that's a puzzle,
              except, Twitchell did die in the month of
              September (9) and in the year 1971 (9/71)!
              Ironic, that this is probably the only prophecy
              that Twitchell got right, and PT didn't even
              know what it really pertained to! Karma? LOL!

              "Was the "new" female ECK Master also
              a fabrication by HK to pacify the women
              coming to the path? Seems I can remember
              someone telling me many years ago that
              there could never be a female because
              of energies, or such."

              ME: Well, according to EK Dogma there
              can't be a Female LEM/Mahanta or Mahanta
              in Training. However, there can be Female
              12th Initiates who are ECK Masters and
              are Not LEM/Mahantas. Kata Daki, otherwise,
              wouldn't be called an ECK Master and listed
              as a member of the Vairagi Order. Unless,
              of course, she received her 12th on the
              "Inner." However, even the LEM/Mahanta
              has the "outer confirmation" of the 12th
              initiation.

              "How do you clip these posts in Yahoo
              so that they don't go on forever and ever?"

              ME: I first highlight the text I want to "reply to"
              (before replying) then go to "edit" and "copy"
              it. I then "reply" and do a "delete" of the whole
              text before doing a "paste" of what I "copied."
              You should also do a "preview" before posting.
              You might want to go back and do more "editing"
              before "previewing" it again and then "sending"
              the final version. Just make sure that everyone
              knows who said what. -Prometheus
              p.s. I had to edit and repost this so those getting
              the emails will have two similar ones.

              Namaste
              Ma-li

              Prometheus wrote:

              Hello Mi-li and All,
              Many of those active chelas joining EK
              in 1973, under Darwin, had become
              7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
              1991. Many others remained 6ths.
              However, most of those who have the
              6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
              the 7th when they become RESAs. This
              is how HK maintains a reserve for the
              RESA position.

              Klemp did replace some of those, of high
              rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
              but then he slowed other initiations down
              due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
              pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
              Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
              initiations above the 5th and, especially,
              with any above the 7th!

              What's really ironic is that those chelas
              Darwin skipped initiations on or who
              were only 4ths for a few months before
              getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
              Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
              the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
              and Company all of their "fast tracked"
              initiations!

              Now, however, a 5th needs to become
              a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
              they will be eligible for the 6th, and
              a 6th needs to become an ESA before
              they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
              this process can vary some depending
              upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
              of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
              through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
              and RESA ass kissing!

              In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
              are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
              List" comes down from the ESC. They do
              this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
              why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
              cases it's the computer generated list based
              on one's membership date and last initiation
              date and the approval of local H.I.s that
              determine whether or not someone will
              or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
              the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

              If most ECKists knew how initiations were
              really done they would know that the rest
              of the crap about "inner communication"
              with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

              FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
              with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
              etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
              Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
              membership current too. Otherwise, one
              can/will get passed over for initiation.

              Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
              basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
              And, one has to watch one's "language."
              You cannot share other beliefs and question
              or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
              myth or prediction is one such thing that
              would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
              are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
              see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
              basis need to know how to play-the-game.

              BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
              to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
              give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
              year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
              wants to go down in history as the biggest
              and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
              Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
              training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
              anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
              This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

              Prometheus
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Ma-li and All, I was being asked to approve or disapprove potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA. I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Ma-li and All,
                I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                hierarchy! Catch-22!

                When one wants and needs to believe there is
                always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                created EK from what he read and learned on a
                personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                Catch-22 again!

                And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                ECK Temple and the ESC?

                Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                have the most to lose.

                But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                their Silence.

                And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                who couldn't function in the real world.


                Prometheus

                Ma-li wrote:

                You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                has been to learn that something I really believed
                in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                actually bought into the "dream".

                Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                and if I'd approve one.

                B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                idea why she was asking me since she never
                wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                she's the one who told me the other had written
                ESC that I was inactive.

                Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                or initiations, until years later when I began to
                wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                things weren't as they seemed.

                Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                the inner" that concerned me.

                If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on
                the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                Namaste
                Ma-li

                drubezarne wrote:

                Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                kind of thing. He would know everything and
                make his determination based on a person's
                spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                showing he's a fake.

                Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                from his mentor that writing books was not
                going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                put himself at the head of it.

                He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                followers. He never explained how a female
                becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                Regards
                Liska
              • Leanne Thompson
                Hi prometheus_973. I just had an EVIL thought. Can one call in as a pretend friend of an HI or RESA and recommend yourself ? Or any way of fooling them.
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi prometheus_973. I just had an "EVIL" thought. Can one call in as a "pretend" friend of an HI or RESA and recommend "yourself"? Or any way of fooling them.
                   
                  Leanne

                  --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 11:54 AM

                  Hello Ma-li and All,
                  I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                  potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                  I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                  Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                  universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                  and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                  basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                  hierarchy! Catch-22!

                  When one wants and needs to believe there is
                  always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                  It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                  to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                  oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                  their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                  them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                  see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                  a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                  own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                  Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                  Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                  created EK from what he read and learned on a
                  personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                  Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                  and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                  and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                  Catch-22 again!

                  And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                  protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                  Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                  talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                  ECK Temple and the ESC?

                  Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                  to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                  more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                  been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                  "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                  so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                  I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                  towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                  Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                  without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                  Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                  and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                  (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                  Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                  have the most to lose.

                  But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                  Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                  and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                  their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                  their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                  Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                  their Silence.

                  And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                  They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                  Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                  and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                  and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                  Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                  Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                  only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                  generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                  or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                  self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                  who couldn't function in the real world.


                  Prometheus

                  Ma-li wrote:

                  You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                  has been to learn that something I really believed
                  in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                  that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                  financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                  for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                  actually bought into the "dream".

                  Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                  I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                  and if I'd approve one.

                  B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                  idea why she was asking me since she never
                  wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                  I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                  such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                  didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                  the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                  she's the one who told me the other had written
                  ESC that I was inactive.

                  Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                  or initiations, until years later when I began to
                  wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                  knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                  about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                  things weren't as they seemed.

                  Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                  I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                  didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                  to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                  anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                  bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                  the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                  I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                  and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                  Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                  the inner" that concerned me.

                  If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                  friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                  be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                  the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                  to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                  still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                  big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                  Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                  Namaste
                  Ma-li

                  drubezarne wrote:

                  Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                  would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                  for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                  was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                  omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                  kind of thing. He would know everything and
                  make his determination based on a person's
                  spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                  showing he's a fake.

                  Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                  didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                  and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                  Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                  a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                  from his mentor that writing books was not
                  going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                  he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                  put himself at the head of it.

                  He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                  It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                  to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                  Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                  You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                  Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                  being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                  followers. He never explained how a female
                  becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                  says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                  It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                  by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                  Regards
                  Liska


                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Leanne and All, No, the RESA or another H.I. calls you to check out someone for initiation. You don t call them, unless, you have a complaint to file. Now
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Leanne and All,
                    No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                    you to check out someone for initiation.
                    You don't call them, unless, you have
                    a complaint to file. Now this could
                    screw someone for initiation! And
                    often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                    out the complaint fully, or get the
                    other side of the story. It all depends.

                    Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                    in place they will sometimes stick together
                    and accept gossip when a sister has been
                    "wronged," or "offended."

                    Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                    by another EK female or by an EK male.
                    There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                    there and sometimes guys will hit on
                    newbies because their own marriage
                    was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                    initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                    Some EK women don't like being dumped
                    or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                    tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                    seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                    the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                    than regular non-ECKists... right?

                    Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                    if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                    call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                    just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                    meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                    seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                    filing the complaint has the "credentials."

                    Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                    and one person tried to drag me into the
                    middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                    an eye on things better, but still had to do
                    some damage control once. There were some
                    chelas that were really good manipulators
                    and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                    I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                    one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                    It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                    when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                    many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                    and one is always having to "act" a part and
                    be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                    and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                    Prometheus



                    Hi prometheus,
                    I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                    Can one call in as a "pretend"
                    friend of an HI or RESA and
                    recommend "yourself"?
                    Or any way of fooling them.

                    Leanne

                    prometheus wrote:

                    Hello Ma-li and All,
                    I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                    potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                    I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                    Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                    universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                    and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                    basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                    hierarchy! Catch-22!

                    When one wants and needs to believe there is
                    always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                    It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                    to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                    oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                    their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                    them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                    see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                    a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                    own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                    Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                    Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                    created EK from what he read and learned on a
                    personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                    Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                    and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                    and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                    Catch-22 again!

                    And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                    protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                    Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                    talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                    ECK Temple and the ESC?

                    Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                    to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                    more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                    been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                    "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                    so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                    I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                    towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                    Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                    without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                    Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                    and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                    (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                    Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                    have the most to lose.

                    But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                    Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                    and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                    their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                    their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                    Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                    their Silence.

                    And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                    They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                    Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                    and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                    and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                    Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                    Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                    only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                    generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                    or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                    self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                    who couldn't function in the real world.


                    Prometheus

                    Ma-li wrote:

                    You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                    has been to learn that something I really believed
                    in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                    that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                    financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                    for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                    actually bought into the "dream".

                    Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                    I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                    and if I'd approve one.

                    B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                    idea why she was asking me since she never
                    wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                    I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                    such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                    didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                    the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                    she's the one who told me the other had written
                    ESC that I was inactive.

                    Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                    or initiations, until years later when I began to
                    wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                    knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                    about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                    things weren't as they seemed.

                    Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                    I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                    didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                    to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                    anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                    bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                    the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                    I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                    and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                    Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                    the inner" that concerned me.

                    If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                    friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                    be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                    the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                    to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                    still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                    big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                    Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                    Namaste
                    Ma-li

                    drubezarne wrote:

                    Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                    would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                    for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                    was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                    omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                    kind of thing. He would know everything and
                    make his determination based on a person's
                    spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                    showing he's a fake.

                    Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                    didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                    and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                    Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                    a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                    from his mentor that writing books was not
                    going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                    he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                    put himself at the head of it.

                    He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                    It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                    to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                    Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                    You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                    Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                    being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                    followers. He never explained how a female
                    becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                    says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                    It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                    by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                    Regards
                    Liska
                  • Leanne Thompson
                    Even calling headquarters wont work? Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.   Leanne ... From: prometheus_973
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 10, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Even calling headquarters wont work?
                      Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.
                       
                      Leanne

                      --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 9:01 PM

                      Hi Leanne and All,
                      No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                      you to check out someone for initiation.
                      You don't call them, unless, you have
                      a complaint to file. Now this could
                      screw someone for initiation! And
                      often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                      out the complaint fully, or get the
                      other side of the story. It all depends.

                      Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                      in place they will sometimes stick together
                      and accept gossip when a sister has been
                      "wronged," or "offended."

                      Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                      by another EK female or by an EK male.
                      There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                      there and sometimes guys will hit on
                      newbies because their own marriage
                      was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                      initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                      Some EK women don't like being dumped
                      or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                      tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                      seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                      the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                      than regular non-ECKists. .. right?

                      Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                      if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                      call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                      just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                      meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                      seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                      filing the complaint has the "credentials. "

                      Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                      and one person tried to drag me into the
                      middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                      an eye on things better, but still had to do
                      some damage control once. There were some
                      chelas that were really good manipulators
                      and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                      I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                      one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                      It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                      when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                      many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                      and one is always having to "act" a part and
                      be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                      and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                      Prometheus


                      Hi prometheus,
                      I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                      Can one call in as a "pretend"
                      friend of an HI or RESA and
                      recommend "yourself"?
                      Or any way of fooling them.

                      Leanne

                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Ma-li and All,
                      I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                      potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                      I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                      Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                      universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                      and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                      basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                      hierarchy! Catch-22!

                      When one wants and needs to believe there is
                      always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                      It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                      to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                      oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                      their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                      them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                      see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                      a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                      own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                      Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                      Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                      created EK from what he read and learned on a
                      personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                      Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                      and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                      and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                      Catch-22 again!

                      And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                      protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                      Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                      talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                      ECK Temple and the ESC?

                      Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                      to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                      more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                      been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                      "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                      so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                      I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                      towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                      Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                      without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                      Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                      and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                      (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                      Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                      have the most to lose.

                      But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                      Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                      and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                      their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                      their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                      Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                      their Silence.

                      And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                      They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                      Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                      and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                      and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                      Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                      Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                      only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                      generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                      or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                      self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                      who couldn't function in the real world.

                      Prometheus

                      Ma-li wrote:

                      You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                      has been to learn that something I really believed
                      in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                      that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                      financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                      for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                      actually bought into the "dream".

                      Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                      I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                      and if I'd approve one.

                      B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                      idea why she was asking me since she never
                      wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                      I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                      such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                      didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                      the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                      she's the one who told me the other had written
                      ESC that I was inactive.

                      Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                      or initiations, until years later when I began to
                      wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                      knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                      about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                      things weren't as they seemed.

                      Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                      I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                      didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                      to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                      anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                      bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                      the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                      I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                      and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                      Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                      the inner" that concerned me.

                      If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                      friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                      be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                      the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                      to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                      still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                      big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                      Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                      Namaste
                      Ma-li

                      drubezarne wrote:

                      Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                      would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                      for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                      was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                      omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                      kind of thing. He would know everything and
                      make his determination based on a person's
                      spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                      showing he's a fake.

                      Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                      didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                      and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                      Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                      a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                      from his mentor that writing books was not
                      going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                      he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                      put himself at the head of it.

                      He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                      It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                      to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                      Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                      You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                      Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                      being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                      followers. He never explained how a female
                      becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                      says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                      It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                      by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                      Regards
                      Liska


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