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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...

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  • Ma-li
    Good Morning All,   Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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      Good Morning All,
       
      Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
       
      If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
       
      In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
       
      I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for freedom.
       
      In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world, and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
       
      The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
       
      Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
       
      Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies, or such. 
       
      How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
       
      Namaste
      Ma-li
       
       
       
       


      --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM

      Hello Mi-li and All,
      Many of those active chelas joining EK
      in 1973, under Darwin, had become
      7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
      1991. Many others remained 6ths.
      However, most of those who have the
      6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
      the 7th when they become RESAs. This
      is how HK maintains a reserve for the
      RESA position.

      Klemp did replace some of those, of high
      rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
      but then he slowed other initiations down
      due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
      pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
      Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
      initiations above the 5th and, especially,
      with any above the 7th!

      What's really ironic is that those chelas
      Darwin skipped initiations on or who
      were only 4ths for a few months before
      getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
      Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
      the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
      and Company all of their "fast tracked"
      initiations!

      Now, however, a 5th needs to become
      a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
      they will be eligible for the 6th, and
      a 6th needs to become an ESA before
      they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
      this process can vary some depending
      upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
      of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
      through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
      and RESA ass kissing!

      In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
      are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
      List" comes down from the ESC. They do
      this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
      why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
      cases it's the computer generated list based
      on one's membership date and last initiation
      date and the approval of local H.I.s that
      determine whether or not someone will
      or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
      the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

      If most ECKists knew how initiations were
      really done they would know that the rest
      of the crap about "inner communication"
      with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

      FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
      with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
      etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
      Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
      membership current too. Otherwise, one
      can/will get passed over for initiation.

      Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
      basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
      And, one has to watch one's "language."
      You cannot share other beliefs and question
      or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
      myth or prediction is one such thing that
      would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
      are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
      see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
      basis need to know how to play-the-game.

      BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
      to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
      give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
      year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
      wants to go down in history as the biggest
      and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
      Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
      training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
      anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
      This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

      Prometheus

      Hello Prometheus,

      Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't know how to use
      Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I shouldn't have.

      Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought the lifetime
      membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect that after all these
      years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th. When I would quesstion the
      RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things down because too
      many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did I know...I was just
      a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master about it or there
      would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser forever. lol

      Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was there with the big
      boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was cracked up to be, or
      was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and 5th's no longer
      automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was grandfathered in because I
      had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't give much thought to
      my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes much interaction with
      people in public settings.

      Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and sign a form so they can
      have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to make sure I wasn't a
      child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It was for insurance
      purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to various other friends who
      are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't had to have
      background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent to more government
      interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I had just been
      informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that gives the gov't access
      to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really ticked me off.

      Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to bow to their wishes, or to
      talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me to send back my
      certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first place, and had no idea
      such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the end of it. How much
      attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years passed between
      initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time. Computers are
      marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done "on the inner". Oops.

      Namaste
      Ma-li

      Prometheus wrote:
      Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

      I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
      quarters) did recently to make you feel
      uncomfortable and for you to have even
      more misgivings. What are some of the
      things that just don't feel right to you
      anymore? Please share more.

      It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
      is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
      just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
      permitted to question things like the
      need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
      or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
      fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

      Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
      had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
      were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
      were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
      and fake.

      The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
      phenomena and appeared when people were
      trying to make a positive impression when
      around other ECKists, or were so detached,
      aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
      with any empathy, as to what others were
      going through. Some actually believed
      they were having a "spiritual experience."
      One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
      feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
      and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
      However, for those who really "believed"
      it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
      or psychic experience just like with any other
      feel good religion. Many times it was just an
      "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

      Prometheus

      Skypilot4mr Wrote:
      I am a new member of this group,
      and don't know exactly how to do
      things here. So, I am just jumping
      in with an email to introduce myself.

      I have been a member of Eckankar
      since 1973, and have been debating
      with myself for the last few years about
      leaving the path. There are just too many
      things that don't feel right to me anymore.

      I live in a rural community, have a disability
      that precludes my going to ECK functions,
      and there is no one in the ECK community
      in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
      talking to about my misgivings. They still
      have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
      I feel there must be something wrong with
      me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

      After reading a few posts on this site,
      I now realize there are others like me
      who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
      if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
      doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
      especially after what headquarters did
      recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
      go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
      blind right now.

      Hope to get to know you folks better,
      and you get to know me too.

      Skypilot4mr


    • drubezarne
      Ma-li, I ve been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp was what he claimed to be
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
        about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
        was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
        be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
        his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
        another example showing he's a fake.

        Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
        from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
        Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
        writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
        get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
        religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

        He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
        Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
        writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
        plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

        Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
        to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
        becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
        be the Living Eck Master.

        It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
        your doubts on this forum.

        Regards
        Liska




        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
        <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
        >
        > Good Morning All,
        >  
        > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
        beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
        -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
        >  
        > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
        because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
        pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
        initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
        it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
        member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
        then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
        remains there for over a decade.
        >  
        > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
        my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
        able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
        I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
        marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
        promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
        after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
        getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
        I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
        about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
        kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
        >  
        > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
        longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
        by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
        aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
        freedom.
        >  
        > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
        never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
        Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
        growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
        and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
        wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
        need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
        strange bedfellows.
        >  
        > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
        an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
        wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
        they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
        it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
        gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
        Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
        corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
        supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
        Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
        there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
        from what's garbage.
        >  
        > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
        the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
        away with the plagerism etc.? 
        >  
        > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
        the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
        many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
        or such. 
        >  
        > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
        forever and ever?
        >  
        > Namaste
        > Ma-li
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >
        >
        > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello Mi-li and All,
        > Many of those active chelas joining EK
        > in 1973, under Darwin, had become
        > 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
        > 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
        > However, most of those who have the
        > 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
        > the 7th when they become RESAs. This
        > is how HK maintains a reserve for the
        > RESA position.
        >
        > Klemp did replace some of those, of high
        > rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
        > but then he slowed other initiations down
        > due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
        > pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
        > Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
        > initiations above the 5th and, especially,
        > with any above the 7th!
        >
        > What's really ironic is that those chelas
        > Darwin skipped initiations on or who
        > were only 4ths for a few months before
        > getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
        > Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
        > the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
        > and Company all of their "fast tracked"
        > initiations!
        >
        > Now, however, a 5th needs to become
        > a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
        > they will be eligible for the 6th, and
        > a 6th needs to become an ESA before
        > they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
        > this process can vary some depending
        > upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
        > of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
        > through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
        > and RESA ass kissing!
        >
        > In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
        > are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
        > List" comes down from the ESC. They do
        > this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
        > why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
        > cases it's the computer generated list based
        > on one's membership date and last initiation
        > date and the approval of local H.I.s that
        > determine whether or not someone will
        > or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
        > the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
        >
        > If most ECKists knew how initiations were
        > really done they would know that the rest
        > of the crap about "inner communication"
        > with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
        >
        > FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
        > with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
        > etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
        > Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
        > membership current too. Otherwise, one
        > can/will get passed over for initiation.
        >
        > Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
        > basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
        > And, one has to watch one's "language."
        > You cannot share other beliefs and question
        > or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
        > myth or prediction is one such thing that
        > would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
        > are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
        > see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
        > basis need to know how to play-the-game.
        >
        > BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
        > to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
        > give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
        > year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
        > wants to go down in history as the biggest
        > and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
        > Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
        > training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
        > anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
        > This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > Hello Prometheus,
        >
        > Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
        know how to use
        > Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
        shouldn't have.
        >
        > Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
        the lifetime
        > membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
        that after all these
        > years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
        When I would quesstion the
        > RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
        down because too
        > many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
        I know...I was just
        > a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
        about it or there
        > would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
        forever. lol
        >
        > Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
        there with the big
        > boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
        cracked up to be, or
        > was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
        5th's no longer
        > automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
        grandfathered in because I
        > had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
        give much thought to
        > my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
        much interaction with
        > people in public settings.
        >
        > Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
        sign a form so they can
        > have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
        make sure I wasn't a
        > child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
        was for insurance
        > purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
        various other friends who
        > are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
        had to have
        > background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
        to more government
        > interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
        had just been
        > informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
        gives the gov't access
        > to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
        ticked me off.
        >
        > Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
        bow to their wishes, or to
        > talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
        to send back my
        > certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
        place, and had no idea
        > such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
        end of it. How much
        > attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
        passed between
        > initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
        Computers are
        > marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
        "on the inner". Oops.
        >
        > Namaste
        > Ma-li
        >
        > Prometheus wrote:
        > Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
        >
        > I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
        > quarters) did recently to make you feel
        > uncomfortable and for you to have even
        > more misgivings. What are some of the
        > things that just don't feel right to you
        > anymore? Please share more.
        >
        > It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
        > is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
        > just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
        > permitted to question things like the
        > need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
        > or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
        > fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
        >
        > Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
        > had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
        > were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
        > were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
        > and fake.
        >
        > The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
        > phenomena and appeared when people were
        > trying to make a positive impression when
        > around other ECKists, or were so detached,
        > aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
        > with any empathy, as to what others were
        > going through. Some actually believed
        > they were having a "spiritual experience."
        > One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
        > feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
        > and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
        > However, for those who really "believed"
        > it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
        > or psychic experience just like with any other
        > feel good religion. Many times it was just an
        > "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > Skypilot4mr Wrote:
        > I am a new member of this group,
        > and don't know exactly how to do
        > things here. So, I am just jumping
        > in with an email to introduce myself.
        >
        > I have been a member of Eckankar
        > since 1973, and have been debating
        > with myself for the last few years about
        > leaving the path. There are just too many
        > things that don't feel right to me anymore.
        >
        > I live in a rural community, have a disability
        > that precludes my going to ECK functions,
        > and there is no one in the ECK community
        > in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
        > talking to about my misgivings. They still
        > have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
        > I feel there must be something wrong with
        > me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
        >
        > After reading a few posts on this site,
        > I now realize there are others like me
        > who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
        > if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
        > doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
        > especially after what headquarters did
        > recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
        > go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
        > blind right now.
        >
        > Hope to get to know you folks better,
        > and you get to know me too.
        >
        > Skypilot4mr
        >
      • mishmisha9
        Hello, Ma-li! I m enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : ) Regarding your question about how Paul got away with making eckankar and the eck masters
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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          Hello, Ma-li!

          I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

          Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
          making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
          different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
          are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
          lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

          As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
          wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
          to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
          physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
          devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

          But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
          female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
          had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
          Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
          of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
          Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
          Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
          And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
          those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
          Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
          showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
          Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
          this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
          what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
          his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
          on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
          which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
          that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
          difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
          publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
          deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
          master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
          Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

          BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
          links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
          Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
          and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

          I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
          eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
          Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

          Mish

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
          >
          > Good Morning All,
          >  
          > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
          on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
          Oh well...
          >  
          > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
          the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
          in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
          takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
          make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
          down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
          >  
          > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
          membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
          same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
          the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
          devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
          told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
          got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
          inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
          and don't plan to start at this point. lol
          >  
          > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
          several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
          sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
          freedom.
          >  
          > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
          game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
          were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
          and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
          of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
          others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
          >  
          > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
          path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
          new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
          confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
          down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
          least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
          Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
          religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
          all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
          >  
          > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
          of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
          >  
          > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
          to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
          never be a female because of energies, or such. 
          >  
          > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
          >  
          > Namaste
          > Ma-li
        • Ma-li
          You have no idea what a kick in the butt this has been to learn that something I really believed in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....that
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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            You have no idea what a kick in the butt this has been to learn that something I really believed in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for financial gain, for power, and without a thought for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who actually bought into the "dream".
             
            Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable, and if I'd approve one.  B. was dying of cancer.  At the time I had no idea why she was asking me since she never wanted my opinion on anything else.  Of course, I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was such a dedicated Eckist.  I knew the two women didn't get along...B had told me many times of the nasty things the other did and said.  In fact, she's the one who told me the other had written ESC that I was inactive.  Anyway,  I thought no more about the incident or initiations, until years later when I began to wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th about someone's innitiation.  I suspected then that things weren't as they seemed.
             
            Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if I would recommend the initiation.  I know she didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted to refuse B her dying wish.  Doesn't matter now anyway.  This whole subject brings up a lot of bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of the back peddaling the former RESA did when I asked about things.  There was always an excuse, and always "because the Mahanta said so".  Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on the inner" that concerned me. 
             
            If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck friends, they would be horrified, and I would be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on the outside....way out of the loop.  It feels good to unload what has been on my mind, but there's still a little voice saying I'm going to get into big trouble for this.  Sure hope it's just paranoia.
             
            Thanks for the link.  I'll read it later today.
             
            Namaste
            Ma-li
             
              


            --- On Sat, 11/8/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
            From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:53 AM

            Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
            about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
            was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
            be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
            his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
            another example showing he's a fake.

            Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
            from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
            Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
            writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
            get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
            religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

            He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
            Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
            writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
            plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

            Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
            to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
            becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
            be the Living Eck Master.

            It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
            your doubts on this forum.

            Regards
            Liska

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
            <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Good Morning All,
            >  
            > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
            beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
            -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
            >  
            > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
            because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
            pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
            initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
            it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
            member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
            then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
            remains there for over a decade.
            >  
            > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
            my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
            able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
            I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
            marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
            promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
            after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
            getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
            I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
            about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
            kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
            >  
            > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
            longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
            by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
            aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
            freedom.
            >  
            > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
            never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
            Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
            growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
            and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
            wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
            need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
            strange bedfellows.
            >  
            > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
            an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
            wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
            they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
            it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
            gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
            Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
            corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
            supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
            Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
            there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
            from what's garbage.
            >  
            > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
            the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
            away with the plagerism etc.? 
            >  
            > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
            the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
            many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
            or such. 
            >  
            > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
            forever and ever?
            >  
            > Namaste
            > Ma-li
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >
            >
            > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...>
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: I'm new here...
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            > Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello Mi-li and All,
            > Many of those active chelas joining EK
            > in 1973, under Darwin, had become
            > 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
            > 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
            > However, most of those who have the
            > 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
            > the 7th when they become RESAs. This
            > is how HK maintains a reserve for the
            > RESA position.
            >
            > Klemp did replace some of those, of high
            > rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
            > but then he slowed other initiations down
            > due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
            > pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
            > Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
            > initiations above the 5th and, especially,
            > with any above the 7th!
            >
            > What's really ironic is that those chelas
            > Darwin skipped initiations on or who
            > were only 4ths for a few months before
            > getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
            > Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
            > the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
            > and Company all of their "fast tracked"
            > initiations!
            >
            > Now, however, a 5th needs to become
            > a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
            > they will be eligible for the 6th, and
            > a 6th needs to become an ESA before
            > they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
            > this process can vary some depending
            > upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
            > of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
            > through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
            > and RESA ass kissing!
            >
            > In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
            > are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
            > List" comes down from the ESC. They do
            > this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
            > why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
            > cases it's the computer generated list based
            > on one's membership date and last initiation
            > date and the approval of local H.I.s that
            > determine whether or not someone will
            > or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
            > the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
            >
            > If most ECKists knew how initiations were
            > really done they would know that the rest
            > of the crap about "inner communication"
            > with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
            >
            > FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
            > with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
            > etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
            > Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
            > membership current too. Otherwise, one
            > can/will get passed over for initiation.
            >
            > Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
            > basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
            > And, one has to watch one's "language."
            > You cannot share other beliefs and question
            > or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
            > myth or prediction is one such thing that
            > would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
            > are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
            > see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
            > basis need to know how to play-the-game.
            >
            > BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
            > to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
            > give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
            > year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
            > wants to go down in history as the biggest
            > and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
            > Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
            > training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
            > anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
            > This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > Hello Prometheus,
            >
            > Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
            know how to use
            > Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
            shouldn't have.
            >
            > Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
            the lifetime
            > membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
            that after all these
            > years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
            When I would quesstion the
            > RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
            down because too
            > many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
            I know...I was just
            > a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
            about it or there
            > would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
            forever. lol
            >
            > Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
            there with the big
            > boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
            cracked up to be, or
            > was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
            5th's no longer
            > automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
            grandfathered in because I
            > had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
            give much thought to
            > my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
            much interaction with
            > people in public settings.
            >
            > Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
            sign a form so they can
            > have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
            make sure I wasn't a
            > child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
            was for insurance
            > purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
            various other friends who
            > are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
            had to have
            > background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
            to more government
            > interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
            had just been
            > informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
            gives the gov't access
            > to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
            ticked me off.
            >
            > Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
            bow to their wishes, or to
            > talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
            to send back my
            > certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
            place, and had no idea
            > such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
            end of it. How much
            > attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
            passed between
            > initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
            Computers are
            > marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
            "on the inner". Oops.
            >
            > Namaste
            > Ma-li
            >
            > Prometheus wrote:
            > Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
            >
            > I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
            > quarters) did recently to make you feel
            > uncomfortable and for you to have even
            > more misgivings. What are some of the
            > things that just don't feel right to you
            > anymore? Please share more.
            >
            > It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
            > is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
            > just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
            > permitted to question things like the
            > need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
            > or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
            > fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
            >
            > Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
            > had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
            > were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
            > were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
            > and fake.
            >
            > The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
            > phenomena and appeared when people were
            > trying to make a positive impression when
            > around other ECKists, or were so detached,
            > aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
            > with any empathy, as to what others were
            > going through. Some actually believed
            > they were having a "spiritual experience."
            > One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
            > feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
            > and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
            > However, for those who really "believed"
            > it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
            > or psychic experience just like with any other
            > feel good religion. Many times it was just an
            > "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > Skypilot4mr Wrote:
            > I am a new member of this group,
            > and don't know exactly how to do
            > things here. So, I am just jumping
            > in with an email to introduce myself.
            >
            > I have been a member of Eckankar
            > since 1973, and have been debating
            > with myself for the last few years about
            > leaving the path. There are just too many
            > things that don't feel right to me anymore.
            >
            > I live in a rural community, have a disability
            > that precludes my going to ECK functions,
            > and there is no one in the ECK community
            > in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
            > talking to about my misgivings. They still
            > have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
            > I feel there must be something wrong with
            > me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
            >
            > After reading a few posts on this site,
            > I now realize there are others like me
            > who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
            > if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
            > doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
            > especially after what headquarters did
            > recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
            > go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
            > blind right now.
            >
            > Hope to get to know you folks better,
            > and you get to know me too.
            >
            > Skypilot4mr
            >


          • Ma-li
            Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.   I
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.
               
              I was thinking about the same thing shortly before your post came in.  If the internet had been around back then, Paul wouldn't have gotten away with all this stuff.  On the other hand, just from limited experience in this area with local eckists, if they accidently found this group, they would not believe one word of it.  Even if they read all the files, they'd say it was just malcontents who couldn't handle being true eckists.  Even my best friend, with whom I tried to discuss my feelings about all this, thinks I'm way off center.  She said, and I quote, "I'll bet this is just a test before you get your 6th".  BS!!!  If that were true, why would I have been having doubts for 5 years or more!
               
              Interesting about Joan.  Are you saying what I think you are saying?  It will be interesting to read his new book....when and if he ever writes one that isn't just chela experiences.
               
              Oh, the thread you all were on before .......why would HK need security people surrounding him, and why would he have any need for a flak vest????  He's supposed to be our protector against all sorts of bad stuff.  Can't he even protect himself?  I know, this is part of his disorder.  Never though he might have mental problems even tho' he did get naked at the airport way back when.  Oh lord, this is all too much for me to digest right now.
               
              I certainly hope having my eyes opened is spiritual growth 'cause if it ain't, then I'm in deep doodoo.
               
              Namaste
              Ma-li
               
               

              --- On Sat, 11/8/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
              From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:57 AM

              Hello, Ma-li!

              I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

              Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
              making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
              different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
              are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
              lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

              As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
              wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
              to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
              physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
              devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

              But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
              female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
              had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
              Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
              of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
              Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
              Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
              And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
              those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
              Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
              showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
              Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
              this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
              what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
              his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
              on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
              which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
              that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
              difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
              publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
              deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
              master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
              Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

              BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
              links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
              Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
              and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

              I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
              eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
              Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Good Morning All,
              >  
              > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
              on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
              Oh well...
              >  
              > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
              the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
              in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
              takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
              make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
              down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
              >  
              > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
              membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
              same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
              the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
              devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
              told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
              got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
              inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
              and don't plan to start at this point. lol
              >  
              > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
              several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
              sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
              freedom.
              >  
              > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
              game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
              were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
              and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
              of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
              others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
              >  
              > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
              path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
              new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
              confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
              down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
              least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
              Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
              religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
              all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
              >  
              > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
              of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
              >  
              > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
              to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
              never be a female because of energies, or such. 
              >  
              > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
              >  
              > Namaste
              > Ma-li



            • prometheus_973
              Hello Ma-li and All, First, I d like to point out that Kata-Daki (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell. Paul created this Female ECK Master in memory of his
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Ma-li and All,
                First, I'd like to point out that Kata-Daki
                (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell.
                Paul created this Female ECK Master in
                memory of his sister and nine years after
                her death.

                Anyway, I'd like to insert my comments
                (below) to what has been shared.

                Ma-li wrote:

                "Looks like the few Eckists thee were
                in this area back in the beginning,
                missed the boat on the 7th initiations
                by the late 80s -early 90s. The highest
                there was then was a 4th. Oh well..."

                ME: Some remote areas didn't have many
                (any) H.I.s because most chelas need to
                gain the attention of the powers that be
                (the RESA).

                "If I am understanding you, people like
                me will never get further because we
                don't have the resources, have health
                issues, or may have pissed off someone
                higher up who is now in a position of
                power re: initiations etc. Gee, do you
                think when the RESA's best friend takes
                it upon herself to write ESC that another
                chela isn't an active member, that it would
                make a difference? Especially, if that person
                then becomes RESA after the friend steps
                down a year later, and remains there for
                over a decade."

                ME: Well, for promotion one needs to
                become an Active Vahana (explorer) by
                doing and participating in Intros or Book
                Discussions or even teaching a Satsang
                Class. Of course, one needs to be "trained"
                and "have a solid foundation in the EK
                teachings." Thus, just having an "Active"
                (current & paid) ECK membership is not
                enough. Eckankar is an "Outer" religion
                just like all others!

                "In the above instance, I was an active
                member in as much that I paid my
                yearly membership, wrote reports,
                and went to functions when I was able.
                I just wasn't in the same class as the
                above mentioned people. I was a small
                business owner, they were in the medical
                profession by marriage. I didn't have the
                money or the time they had to devote
                to promoting Eckanakar. Maybe I'm all
                wet about this, but I noticed after ESC
                was told by this 4th that I was inactive,
                other chela's kept getting their initiations,
                but I never got another one. At some
                point I didn't really care anymore, and
                there were too many inconsistencies
                about many things in the ECK community.
                I have never been an ass kisser, and don't
                plan to start at this point. lol"

                ME: It seems that there are a lot of chiropractors,
                acupuncturists, and massage therapists in
                ECKankar. The former doesn't have the same
                prestige (and vanity) associated with it than
                the other two have. But, yes, the friends of
                the RESA will be promoted faster than others
                who are more spiritually advanced.

                "I do know that when word gets out that
                I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends
                with several of the people...not by my choice,
                but by theirs. Then the gossip will fly, and
                all sorts of things that aren't true will be
                spread about the area. Small price to pay
                for freedom."

                ME: It is true that many ECKists won't want
                to associate with you. Some will be fearful
                to hear the Truth, and some will see it as
                being Negative. They won't want to be "infected,"
                or have others (higher up) think they are in
                agreement with some of your newly found
                perspectives and insights. They don't want
                to be Black Listed, too, on initiations.

                "In short, guess I didn't play the game
                very well. Of course, I never knew there
                was a game when it came to one's spiritual
                beliefs. Thought we were all on the same
                page, and were there for spiritual growth.
                Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the
                business world, and the little, honest,
                hardworking guy gets stepped on by
                those wanting whatever place of power
                was available. I don't understand the
                need for power, and for causing grief
                for others. Power makes for strange
                bedfellows."

                ME: No, you didn't play-the-game well
                at all! Catch-22! Klemp mentions in his
                accounts from being locked-up, in that
                Mental Institution, that he learned to
                "play-the-game" (PTG) with the psychologist
                in order to be released early. HK used this
                same PTG technique when he worked under
                DG at the ESC by maintaining a wimpy facade
                to disarm Gross. Darwin needed someone
                who wanted to "write" and wimpy HK was
                the obvious choice. Thus, DG promoted
                Klemp with even more of Higher Initiations
                and was unaware of Klemp's own power
                game!


                "The thing that appealed to me in the
                beginning was that Eckankar was an
                individual path. In a way that's BS, and
                I see that now. Makes me wonder about
                the many who are new to the path. When,
                if ever, will they reach the point I've reached,
                and will they be as confused about it as
                I've been? I didn't have a clue about all
                the things that have gone down until
                I read some of the links on your group
                home page. Blew my mind, to say the
                least. So much deception, outright lies,
                and corruption by those we put our trust
                in. Eckankar, the path that was supposed
                to be different, is no different that any other
                religion. Granted, there is truth to be learned
                from studying it, but then, there is truth in
                all religions. We just have to discern what's
                truth from what's garbage."

                ME: ECKankar does start out as something
                quite different from the end results! Way
                back it did seem to be more "spiritual" and
                an "individual path." Many of Twitchell's
                plagiarized concepts were very intriguing
                until one discovers that many of these were
                taken from other fraudulent religions based
                upon lies and myth and "tweaked" for the
                Western New Age mindset.

                "Did Paul just make up the number he used
                as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
                of his religion? If he made it all up, how did
                he get away with the plagerism etc.?"

                ME: As for the number 971 that's a puzzle,
                except, Twitchell did die in the month of
                September (9) and in the year 1971 (9/71)!
                Ironic, that this is probably the only prophecy
                that Twitchell got right, and PT didn't even
                know what it really pertained to! Karma? LOL!

                "Was the "new" female ECK Master also
                a fabrication by HK to pacify the women
                coming to the path? Seems I can remember
                someone telling me many years ago that
                there could never be a female because
                of energies, or such."

                ME: Well, according to EK Dogma there
                can't be a Female LEM/Mahanta or Mahanta
                in Training. However, there can be Female
                12th Initiates who are ECK Masters and
                are Not LEM/Mahantas. Kata Daki, otherwise,
                wouldn't be called an ECK Master and listed
                as a member of the Vairagi Order. Unless,
                of course, she received her 12th on the
                "Inner." However, even the LEM/Mahanta
                has the "outer confirmation" of the 12th
                initiation.

                "How do you clip these posts in Yahoo
                so that they don't go on forever and ever?"

                ME: I first highlight the text I want to "reply to"
                (before replying) then go to "edit" and "copy"
                it. I then "reply" and do a "delete" of the whole
                text before doing a "paste" of what I "copied."
                You should also do a "preview" before posting.
                You might want to go back and do more "editing"
                before "previewing" it again and then "sending"
                the final version. Just make sure that everyone
                knows who said what. -Prometheus
                p.s. I had to edit and repost this so those getting
                the emails will have two similar ones.

                Namaste
                Ma-li

                Prometheus wrote:

                Hello Mi-li and All,
                Many of those active chelas joining EK
                in 1973, under Darwin, had become
                7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
                1991. Many others remained 6ths.
                However, most of those who have the
                6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
                the 7th when they become RESAs. This
                is how HK maintains a reserve for the
                RESA position.

                Klemp did replace some of those, of high
                rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
                but then he slowed other initiations down
                due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
                pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
                Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
                initiations above the 5th and, especially,
                with any above the 7th!

                What's really ironic is that those chelas
                Darwin skipped initiations on or who
                were only 4ths for a few months before
                getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
                Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
                the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
                and Company all of their "fast tracked"
                initiations!

                Now, however, a 5th needs to become
                a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
                they will be eligible for the 6th, and
                a 6th needs to become an ESA before
                they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
                this process can vary some depending
                upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
                of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
                through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
                and RESA ass kissing!

                In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
                are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
                List" comes down from the ESC. They do
                this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
                why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
                cases it's the computer generated list based
                on one's membership date and last initiation
                date and the approval of local H.I.s that
                determine whether or not someone will
                or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
                the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

                If most ECKists knew how initiations were
                really done they would know that the rest
                of the crap about "inner communication"
                with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

                FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
                with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
                etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
                Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
                membership current too. Otherwise, one
                can/will get passed over for initiation.

                Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
                basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
                And, one has to watch one's "language."
                You cannot share other beliefs and question
                or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
                myth or prediction is one such thing that
                would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
                are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
                see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
                basis need to know how to play-the-game.

                BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
                to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
                give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
                year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
                wants to go down in history as the biggest
                and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
                Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
                training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
                anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
                This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

                Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Ma-li and All, I was being asked to approve or disapprove potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA. I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Ma-li and All,
                  I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                  potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                  I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                  Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                  universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                  and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                  basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                  hierarchy! Catch-22!

                  When one wants and needs to believe there is
                  always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                  It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                  to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                  oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                  their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                  them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                  see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                  a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                  own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                  Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                  Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                  created EK from what he read and learned on a
                  personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                  Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                  and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                  and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                  Catch-22 again!

                  And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                  protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                  Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                  talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                  ECK Temple and the ESC?

                  Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                  to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                  more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                  been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                  "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                  so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                  I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                  towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                  Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                  without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                  Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                  and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                  (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                  Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                  have the most to lose.

                  But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                  Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                  and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                  their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                  their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                  Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                  their Silence.

                  And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                  They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                  Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                  and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                  and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                  Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                  Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                  only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                  generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                  or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                  self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                  who couldn't function in the real world.


                  Prometheus

                  Ma-li wrote:

                  You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                  has been to learn that something I really believed
                  in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                  that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                  financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                  for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                  actually bought into the "dream".

                  Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                  I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                  and if I'd approve one.

                  B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                  idea why she was asking me since she never
                  wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                  I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                  such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                  didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                  the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                  she's the one who told me the other had written
                  ESC that I was inactive.

                  Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                  or initiations, until years later when I began to
                  wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                  knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                  about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                  things weren't as they seemed.

                  Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                  I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                  didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                  to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                  anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                  bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                  the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                  I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                  and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                  Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                  the inner" that concerned me.

                  If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                  friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                  be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on
                  the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                  to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                  still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                  big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                  Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                  Namaste
                  Ma-li

                  drubezarne wrote:

                  Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                  would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                  for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                  was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                  omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                  kind of thing. He would know everything and
                  make his determination based on a person's
                  spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                  showing he's a fake.

                  Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                  didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                  and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                  Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                  a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                  from his mentor that writing books was not
                  going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                  he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                  put himself at the head of it.

                  He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                  It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                  to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                  Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                  You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                  Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                  being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                  followers. He never explained how a female
                  becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                  says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                  It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                  by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                  Regards
                  Liska
                • Leanne Thompson
                  Hi prometheus_973. I just had an EVIL thought. Can one call in as a pretend friend of an HI or RESA and recommend yourself ? Or any way of fooling them.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi prometheus_973. I just had an "EVIL" thought. Can one call in as a "pretend" friend of an HI or RESA and recommend "yourself"? Or any way of fooling them.
                     
                    Leanne

                    --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 11:54 AM

                    Hello Ma-li and All,
                    I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                    potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                    I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                    Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                    universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                    and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                    basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                    hierarchy! Catch-22!

                    When one wants and needs to believe there is
                    always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                    It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                    to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                    oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                    their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                    them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                    see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                    a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                    own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                    Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                    Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                    created EK from what he read and learned on a
                    personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                    Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                    and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                    and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                    Catch-22 again!

                    And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                    protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                    Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                    talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                    ECK Temple and the ESC?

                    Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                    to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                    more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                    been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                    "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                    so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                    I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                    towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                    Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                    without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                    Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                    and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                    (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                    Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                    have the most to lose.

                    But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                    Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                    and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                    their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                    their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                    Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                    their Silence.

                    And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                    They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                    Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                    and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                    and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                    Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                    Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                    only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                    generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                    or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                    self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                    who couldn't function in the real world.


                    Prometheus

                    Ma-li wrote:

                    You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                    has been to learn that something I really believed
                    in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                    that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                    financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                    for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                    actually bought into the "dream".

                    Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                    I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                    and if I'd approve one.

                    B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                    idea why she was asking me since she never
                    wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                    I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                    such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                    didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                    the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                    she's the one who told me the other had written
                    ESC that I was inactive.

                    Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                    or initiations, until years later when I began to
                    wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                    knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                    about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                    things weren't as they seemed.

                    Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                    I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                    didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                    to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                    anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                    bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                    the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                    I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                    and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                    Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                    the inner" that concerned me.

                    If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                    friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                    be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                    the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                    to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                    still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                    big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                    Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                    Namaste
                    Ma-li

                    drubezarne wrote:

                    Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                    would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                    for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                    was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                    omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                    kind of thing. He would know everything and
                    make his determination based on a person's
                    spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                    showing he's a fake.

                    Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                    didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                    and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                    Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                    a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                    from his mentor that writing books was not
                    going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                    he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                    put himself at the head of it.

                    He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                    It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                    to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                    Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                    You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                    Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                    being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                    followers. He never explained how a female
                    becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                    says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                    It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                    by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                    Regards
                    Liska


                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Leanne and All, No, the RESA or another H.I. calls you to check out someone for initiation. You don t call them, unless, you have a complaint to file. Now
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Leanne and All,
                      No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                      you to check out someone for initiation.
                      You don't call them, unless, you have
                      a complaint to file. Now this could
                      screw someone for initiation! And
                      often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                      out the complaint fully, or get the
                      other side of the story. It all depends.

                      Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                      in place they will sometimes stick together
                      and accept gossip when a sister has been
                      "wronged," or "offended."

                      Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                      by another EK female or by an EK male.
                      There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                      there and sometimes guys will hit on
                      newbies because their own marriage
                      was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                      initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                      Some EK women don't like being dumped
                      or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                      tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                      seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                      the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                      than regular non-ECKists... right?

                      Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                      if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                      call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                      just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                      meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                      seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                      filing the complaint has the "credentials."

                      Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                      and one person tried to drag me into the
                      middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                      an eye on things better, but still had to do
                      some damage control once. There were some
                      chelas that were really good manipulators
                      and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                      I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                      one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                      It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                      when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                      many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                      and one is always having to "act" a part and
                      be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                      and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                      Prometheus



                      Hi prometheus,
                      I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                      Can one call in as a "pretend"
                      friend of an HI or RESA and
                      recommend "yourself"?
                      Or any way of fooling them.

                      Leanne

                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Ma-li and All,
                      I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                      potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                      I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                      Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                      universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                      and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                      basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                      hierarchy! Catch-22!

                      When one wants and needs to believe there is
                      always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                      It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                      to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                      oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                      their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                      them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                      see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                      a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                      own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                      Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                      Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                      created EK from what he read and learned on a
                      personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                      Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                      and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                      and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                      Catch-22 again!

                      And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                      protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                      Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                      talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                      ECK Temple and the ESC?

                      Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                      to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                      more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                      been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                      "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                      so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                      I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                      towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                      Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                      without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                      Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                      and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                      (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                      Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                      have the most to lose.

                      But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                      Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                      and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                      their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                      their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                      Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                      their Silence.

                      And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                      They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                      Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                      and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                      and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                      Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                      Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                      only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                      generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                      or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                      self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                      who couldn't function in the real world.


                      Prometheus

                      Ma-li wrote:

                      You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                      has been to learn that something I really believed
                      in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                      that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                      financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                      for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                      actually bought into the "dream".

                      Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                      I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                      and if I'd approve one.

                      B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                      idea why she was asking me since she never
                      wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                      I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                      such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                      didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                      the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                      she's the one who told me the other had written
                      ESC that I was inactive.

                      Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                      or initiations, until years later when I began to
                      wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                      knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                      about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                      things weren't as they seemed.

                      Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                      I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                      didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                      to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                      anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                      bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                      the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                      I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                      and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                      Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                      the inner" that concerned me.

                      If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                      friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                      be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                      the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                      to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                      still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                      big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                      Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                      Namaste
                      Ma-li

                      drubezarne wrote:

                      Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                      would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                      for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                      was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                      omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                      kind of thing. He would know everything and
                      make his determination based on a person's
                      spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                      showing he's a fake.

                      Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                      didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                      and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                      Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                      a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                      from his mentor that writing books was not
                      going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                      he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                      put himself at the head of it.

                      He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                      It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                      to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                      Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                      You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                      Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                      being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                      followers. He never explained how a female
                      becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                      says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                      It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                      by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                      Regards
                      Liska
                    • Leanne Thompson
                      Even calling headquarters wont work? Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.   Leanne ... From: prometheus_973
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 10, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Even calling headquarters wont work?
                        Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.
                         
                        Leanne

                        --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 9:01 PM

                        Hi Leanne and All,
                        No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                        you to check out someone for initiation.
                        You don't call them, unless, you have
                        a complaint to file. Now this could
                        screw someone for initiation! And
                        often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                        out the complaint fully, or get the
                        other side of the story. It all depends.

                        Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                        in place they will sometimes stick together
                        and accept gossip when a sister has been
                        "wronged," or "offended."

                        Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                        by another EK female or by an EK male.
                        There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                        there and sometimes guys will hit on
                        newbies because their own marriage
                        was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                        initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                        Some EK women don't like being dumped
                        or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                        tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                        seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                        the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                        than regular non-ECKists. .. right?

                        Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                        if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                        call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                        just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                        meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                        seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                        filing the complaint has the "credentials. "

                        Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                        and one person tried to drag me into the
                        middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                        an eye on things better, but still had to do
                        some damage control once. There were some
                        chelas that were really good manipulators
                        and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                        I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                        one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                        It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                        when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                        many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                        and one is always having to "act" a part and
                        be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                        and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                        Prometheus


                        Hi prometheus,
                        I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                        Can one call in as a "pretend"
                        friend of an HI or RESA and
                        recommend "yourself"?
                        Or any way of fooling them.

                        Leanne

                        prometheus wrote:

                        Hello Ma-li and All,
                        I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                        potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                        I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                        Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                        universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                        and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                        basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                        hierarchy! Catch-22!

                        When one wants and needs to believe there is
                        always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                        It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                        to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                        oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                        their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                        them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                        see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                        a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                        own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                        Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                        Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                        created EK from what he read and learned on a
                        personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                        Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                        and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                        and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                        Catch-22 again!

                        And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                        protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                        Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                        talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                        ECK Temple and the ESC?

                        Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                        to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                        more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                        been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                        "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                        so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                        I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                        towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                        Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                        without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                        Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                        and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                        (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                        Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                        have the most to lose.

                        But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                        Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                        and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                        their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                        their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                        Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                        their Silence.

                        And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                        They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                        Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                        and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                        and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                        Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                        Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                        only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                        generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                        or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                        self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                        who couldn't function in the real world.

                        Prometheus

                        Ma-li wrote:

                        You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                        has been to learn that something I really believed
                        in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                        that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                        financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                        for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                        actually bought into the "dream".

                        Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                        I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                        and if I'd approve one.

                        B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                        idea why she was asking me since she never
                        wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                        I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                        such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                        didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                        the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                        she's the one who told me the other had written
                        ESC that I was inactive.

                        Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                        or initiations, until years later when I began to
                        wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                        knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                        about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                        things weren't as they seemed.

                        Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                        I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                        didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                        to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                        anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                        bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                        the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                        I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                        and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                        Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                        the inner" that concerned me.

                        If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                        friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                        be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                        the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                        to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                        still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                        big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                        Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                        Namaste
                        Ma-li

                        drubezarne wrote:

                        Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                        would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                        for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                        was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                        omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                        kind of thing. He would know everything and
                        make his determination based on a person's
                        spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                        showing he's a fake.

                        Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                        didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                        and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                        Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                        a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                        from his mentor that writing books was not
                        going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                        he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                        put himself at the head of it.

                        He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                        It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                        to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                        Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                        You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                        Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                        being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                        followers. He never explained how a female
                        becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                        says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                        It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                        by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                        Regards
                        Liska


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