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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...

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  • Leanne Thompson
    Hi prometheus. WHen that lady went kooky while running down the isle towards harold did anyone else join in to help you? I remmeber ROn Lavanerir telling a
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 6, 2008
      Hi prometheus. WHen that lady went kooky while running down the isle towards harold did anyone else join in to help you? I remmeber ROn Lavanerir telling a group I was in about this and I kind of laughed.
       
      THanks
      Leanne

      --- On Thu, 11/6/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 8:13 PM

      Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

      I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
      quarters) did recently to make you feel
      uncomfortable and for you to have even
      more misgivings. What are some of the
      things that just don't feel right to you
      anymore? Please share more.

      It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
      is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
      just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
      permitted to question things like the
      need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
      or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
      fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

      Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
      had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
      were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
      were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
      and fake.

      The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
      phenomena and appeared when people were
      trying to make a positive impression when
      around other ECKists, or were so detached,
      aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
      with any empathy, as to what others were
      going through. Some actually believed
      they were having a "spiritual experience."
      One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
      feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
      and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
      However, for those who really "believed"
      it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
      or psychic experience just like with any other
      feel good religion. Many times it was just an
      "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

      Prometheus

      Skypilot4mr Wrote:
      I am a new member of this group,
      and don't know exactly how to do
      things here. So, I am just jumping
      in with an email to introduce myself.

      I have been a member of Eckankar
      since 1973, and have been debating
      with myself for the last few years about
      leaving the path. There are just too many
      things that don't feel right to me anymore.

      I live in a rural community, have a disability
      that precludes my going to ECK functions,
      and there is no one in the ECK community
      in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
      talking to about my misgivings. They still
      have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
      I feel there must be something wrong with
      me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

      After reading a few posts on this site,
      I now realize there are others like me
      who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
      if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
      doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
      especially after what headquarters did
      recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
      go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
      blind right now.

      Hope to get to know you folks better,
      and you get to know me too.

      Skypilot4mr



    • Ma-li
      Hello Prometheus,   Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same.  Don t know how to use Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 7, 2008
        Hello Prometheus,
         
        Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same.  Don't know how to use Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I shouldn't have.
         
        Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973.  I never bought the lifetime membership because I couldn't afford it.  Anyway, you would expect that after all these years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.  When I would quesstion the RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things down because too many were getting to far too fast.  Sounded wrong to me, but what did I know...I was just a lowly peon at the time.  Of course, we couldn't question the Master about it or there would never be another intiiation.  God forbid I'd be a lowly loser forever. lol
         
        Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th.  Yipee, I finally was there with the big boys.  Funny thing, nothing changed.  Was that initiation all it was cracked up to be, or was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and 5th's no longer automatically became clerics without taking the training.  I was grandfathered in because I had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't give much thought to my staus as a cleric.  As I said, I have a disability that precludes much interaction with people in public settings.
         
        Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and sign a form so they can have a private company do a criminal background check.  This was to make sure I wasn't a child predator, molester etc.  Talk about a slap in the face!!!!  It was for insurance purposes, they said.  Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to various other friends who are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled.  They hadn't had to have background checks.  All that aside, there was no way I would consent to more government interference in my life, and refused to sign.  Told them why also.  (I had just been informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that gives the gov't access to my pc...according to the new law.)  Those two letters really ticked me off. 
         
        Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to bow to their wishes, or to talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me to send back my certificate and ID card.  Wow!  I NEVER got a certificate in the first place, and had no idea such a thing even existed.  Sent them the ID card, and that was the end of it.  How much attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years passed between initiations?  I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.  Computers are marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done "on the inner". Oops.
         
        Namaste
        Ma-li

        --- On Thu, 11/6/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 9:13 PM

        Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

        I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
        quarters) did recently to make you feel
        uncomfortable and for you to have even
        more misgivings. What are some of the
        things that just don't feel right to you
        anymore? Please share more.

        It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
        is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
        just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
        permitted to question things like the
        need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
        or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
        fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

        Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
        had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
        were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
        were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
        and fake.

        The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
        phenomena and appeared when people were
        trying to make a positive impression when
        around other ECKists, or were so detached,
        aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
        with any empathy, as to what others were
        going through. Some actually believed
        they were having a "spiritual experience."
        One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
        feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
        and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
        However, for those who really "believed"
        it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
        or psychic experience just like with any other
        feel good religion. Many times it was just an
        "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

        Prometheus

        Skypilot4mr Wrote:
        I am a new member of this group,
        and don't know exactly how to do
        things here. So, I am just jumping
        in with an email to introduce myself.

        I have been a member of Eckankar
        since 1973, and have been debating
        with myself for the last few years about
        leaving the path. There are just too many
        things that don't feel right to me anymore.

        I live in a rural community, have a disability
        that precludes my going to ECK functions,
        and there is no one in the ECK community
        in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
        talking to about my misgivings. They still
        have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
        I feel there must be something wrong with
        me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

        After reading a few posts on this site,
        I now realize there are others like me
        who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
        if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
        doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
        especially after what headquarters did
        recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
        go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
        blind right now.

        Hope to get to know you folks better,
        and you get to know me too.

        Skypilot4mr



      • prometheus_973
        Hello Mi-li and All, Many of those active chelas joining EK in 1973, under Darwin, had become 7ths in the mid to late 1980 s or by 1991. Many others remained
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 7, 2008
          Hello Mi-li and All,
          Many of those active chelas joining EK
          in 1973, under Darwin, had become
          7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
          1991. Many others remained 6ths.
          However, most of those who have the
          6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
          the 7th when they become RESAs. This
          is how HK maintains a reserve for the
          RESA position.

          Klemp did replace some of those, of high
          rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
          but then he slowed other initiations down
          due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
          pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
          Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
          initiations above the 5th and, especially,
          with any above the 7th!

          What's really ironic is that those chelas
          Darwin skipped initiations on or who
          were only 4ths for a few months before
          getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
          Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
          the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
          and Company all of their "fast tracked"
          initiations!


          Now, however, a 5th needs to become
          a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
          they will be eligible for the 6th, and
          a 6th needs to become an ESA before
          they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
          this process can vary some depending
          upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
          of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
          through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
          and RESA ass kissing!

          In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
          are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
          List" comes down from the ESC. They do
          this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
          why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
          cases it's the computer generated list based
          on one's membership date and last initiation
          date and the approval of local H.I.s that
          determine whether or not someone will
          or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
          the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

          If most ECKists knew how initiations were
          really done they would know that the rest
          of the crap about "inner communication"
          with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

          FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
          with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
          etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
          Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
          membership current too. Otherwise, one
          can/will get passed over for initiation.

          Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
          basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
          And, one has to watch one's "language."
          You cannot share other beliefs and question
          or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
          myth or prediction is one such thing that
          would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
          are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
          see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
          basis need to know how to play-the-game.

          BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
          to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
          give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
          year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
          wants to go down in history as the biggest
          and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
          Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
          training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
          anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
          This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

          Prometheus



          Hello Prometheus,

          Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't know how to use
          Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I shouldn't have.

          Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought the lifetime
          membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect that after all these
          years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th. When I would quesstion the
          RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things down because too
          many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did I know...I was just
          a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master about it or there
          would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser forever. lol

          Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was there with the big
          boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was cracked up to be, or
          was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and 5th's no longer
          automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was grandfathered in because I
          had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't give much thought to
          my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes much interaction with
          people in public settings.

          Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and sign a form so they can
          have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to make sure I wasn't a
          child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It was for insurance
          purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to various other friends who
          are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't had to have
          background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent to more government
          interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I had just been
          informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that gives the gov't access
          to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really ticked me off.

          Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to bow to their wishes, or to
          talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me to send back my
          certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first place, and had no idea
          such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the end of it. How much
          attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years passed between
          initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time. Computers are
          marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done "on the inner". Oops.

          Namaste
          Ma-li

          Prometheus wrote:
          Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

          I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
          quarters) did recently to make you feel
          uncomfortable and for you to have even
          more misgivings. What are some of the
          things that just don't feel right to you
          anymore? Please share more.

          It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
          is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
          just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
          permitted to question things like the
          need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
          or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
          fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

          Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
          had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
          were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
          were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
          and fake.

          The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
          phenomena and appeared when people were
          trying to make a positive impression when
          around other ECKists, or were so detached,
          aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
          with any empathy, as to what others were
          going through. Some actually believed
          they were having a "spiritual experience."
          One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
          feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
          and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
          However, for those who really "believed"
          it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
          or psychic experience just like with any other
          feel good religion. Many times it was just an
          "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

          Prometheus

          Skypilot4mr Wrote:
          I am a new member of this group,
          and don't know exactly how to do
          things here. So, I am just jumping
          in with an email to introduce myself.

          I have been a member of Eckankar
          since 1973, and have been debating
          with myself for the last few years about
          leaving the path. There are just too many
          things that don't feel right to me anymore.

          I live in a rural community, have a disability
          that precludes my going to ECK functions,
          and there is no one in the ECK community
          in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
          talking to about my misgivings. They still
          have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
          I feel there must be something wrong with
          me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

          After reading a few posts on this site,
          I now realize there are others like me
          who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
          if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
          doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
          especially after what headquarters did
          recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
          go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
          blind right now.

          Hope to get to know you folks better,
          and you get to know me too.

          Skypilot4mr
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Leanne and All, Yes, I mentioned that we stopped her. ECKists want to protect their Mahanta (while he doesn t lift a finger to protect them),
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 7, 2008
            Hello Leanne and All,
            Yes, I mentioned that "we" stopped
            her. ECKists want to protect their
            Mahanta (while he doesn't lift a
            finger to protect them), therefore,
            there was plenty of help including
            EK security. When I told people about
            what happened I don't think that
            anyone laughed (well maybe one guy)
            they were shocked and concerned.

            The first reaction was concern for
            Klemp's safety and the next reaction
            was concern for the ECKist. After that,
            the more times the story was told the
            funnier it seemed. I'm not sure if I saw
            Ron there, outside, with us or not. I
            can't recall seeing him.

            Prometheus


            Leanne wrote:
            >
            Hi prometheus. WHen that lady
            went kooky while running down
            the isle towards harold did anyone
            else join in to help you? I remember
            ROn Lavanerir telling a group I was
            in about this and I kind of laughed.
            >  
            THanks
            Leanne

            Prometheus wrote:

            Hello Liska and All,
            I think that Klemp just remarked that
            sometimes people get too much of the
            "ECK" at the seminars and will become
            overloaded and out of balance. It seemed
            like everyone related to HK's remarks.
            He could have said more about this but
            I was outside near the entryway to the
            main hall with the woman, and other
            H.I.s and security people.

            I'm almost thinking that this was an
            Orlando venue for this major EK seminar.
            I know it wasn't in Minneapolis. I was
            seated near the center of the main aisle
            and heard her yelling and then saw her
            running and waving her arms as she ran
            down the aisle and approached me.


            "We" stopped her about 50 feet from
            the stage and escorted her outside near
            the entrance. Actually, she was confused
            and suffering from what some call a
            "nervous (mental) breakdown" much like
            Klemp experienced when he jumped off
            that bridge and did a striptease at an
            airport in 1970.


            I heard Harry comment upon the incident
            while escorting her out and while standing
            outside through a partly open door.

            It is interesting that when things like this
            happen to others (except Klemp) it's referred
            to as getting too much of the "ECK" and being
            overloaded. With Klemp, it was the result of
            God-Realization! LOL!

            Prometheus
          • Ma-li
            Good Morning All,   Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
              Good Morning All,
               
              Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
               
              If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
               
              In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
               
              I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for freedom.
               
              In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world, and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
               
              The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
               
              Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
               
              Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies, or such. 
               
              How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
               
              Namaste
              Ma-li
               
               
               
               


              --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM

              Hello Mi-li and All,
              Many of those active chelas joining EK
              in 1973, under Darwin, had become
              7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
              1991. Many others remained 6ths.
              However, most of those who have the
              6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
              the 7th when they become RESAs. This
              is how HK maintains a reserve for the
              RESA position.

              Klemp did replace some of those, of high
              rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
              but then he slowed other initiations down
              due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
              pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
              Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
              initiations above the 5th and, especially,
              with any above the 7th!

              What's really ironic is that those chelas
              Darwin skipped initiations on or who
              were only 4ths for a few months before
              getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
              Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
              the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
              and Company all of their "fast tracked"
              initiations!

              Now, however, a 5th needs to become
              a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
              they will be eligible for the 6th, and
              a 6th needs to become an ESA before
              they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
              this process can vary some depending
              upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
              of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
              through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
              and RESA ass kissing!

              In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
              are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
              List" comes down from the ESC. They do
              this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
              why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
              cases it's the computer generated list based
              on one's membership date and last initiation
              date and the approval of local H.I.s that
              determine whether or not someone will
              or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
              the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

              If most ECKists knew how initiations were
              really done they would know that the rest
              of the crap about "inner communication"
              with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

              FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
              with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
              etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
              Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
              membership current too. Otherwise, one
              can/will get passed over for initiation.

              Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
              basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
              And, one has to watch one's "language."
              You cannot share other beliefs and question
              or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
              myth or prediction is one such thing that
              would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
              are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
              see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
              basis need to know how to play-the-game.

              BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
              to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
              give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
              year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
              wants to go down in history as the biggest
              and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
              Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
              training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
              anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
              This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

              Prometheus

              Hello Prometheus,

              Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't know how to use
              Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I shouldn't have.

              Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought the lifetime
              membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect that after all these
              years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th. When I would quesstion the
              RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things down because too
              many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did I know...I was just
              a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master about it or there
              would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser forever. lol

              Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was there with the big
              boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was cracked up to be, or
              was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and 5th's no longer
              automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was grandfathered in because I
              had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't give much thought to
              my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes much interaction with
              people in public settings.

              Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and sign a form so they can
              have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to make sure I wasn't a
              child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It was for insurance
              purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to various other friends who
              are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't had to have
              background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent to more government
              interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I had just been
              informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that gives the gov't access
              to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really ticked me off.

              Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to bow to their wishes, or to
              talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me to send back my
              certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first place, and had no idea
              such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the end of it. How much
              attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years passed between
              initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time. Computers are
              marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done "on the inner". Oops.

              Namaste
              Ma-li

              Prometheus wrote:
              Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

              I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
              quarters) did recently to make you feel
              uncomfortable and for you to have even
              more misgivings. What are some of the
              things that just don't feel right to you
              anymore? Please share more.

              It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
              is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
              just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
              permitted to question things like the
              need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
              or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
              fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

              Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
              had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
              were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
              were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
              and fake.

              The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
              phenomena and appeared when people were
              trying to make a positive impression when
              around other ECKists, or were so detached,
              aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
              with any empathy, as to what others were
              going through. Some actually believed
              they were having a "spiritual experience."
              One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
              feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
              and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
              However, for those who really "believed"
              it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
              or psychic experience just like with any other
              feel good religion. Many times it was just an
              "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

              Prometheus

              Skypilot4mr Wrote:
              I am a new member of this group,
              and don't know exactly how to do
              things here. So, I am just jumping
              in with an email to introduce myself.

              I have been a member of Eckankar
              since 1973, and have been debating
              with myself for the last few years about
              leaving the path. There are just too many
              things that don't feel right to me anymore.

              I live in a rural community, have a disability
              that precludes my going to ECK functions,
              and there is no one in the ECK community
              in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
              talking to about my misgivings. They still
              have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
              I feel there must be something wrong with
              me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

              After reading a few posts on this site,
              I now realize there are others like me
              who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
              if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
              doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
              especially after what headquarters did
              recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
              go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
              blind right now.

              Hope to get to know you folks better,
              and you get to know me too.

              Skypilot4mr


            • drubezarne
              Ma-li, I ve been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp was what he claimed to be
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
                Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
                about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
                be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
                his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
                another example showing he's a fake.

                Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
                from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
                writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
                get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
                religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

                He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
                Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
                writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
                plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
                to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
                becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
                be the Living Eck Master.

                It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
                your doubts on this forum.

                Regards
                Liska




                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
                <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
                >
                > Good Morning All,
                >  
                > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
                beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
                -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
                >  
                > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
                because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
                pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
                initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
                it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
                member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
                then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
                remains there for over a decade.
                >  
                > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
                my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
                able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
                I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
                marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
                promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
                after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
                getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
                I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
                about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
                kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                >  
                > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
                longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
                by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
                aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
                freedom.
                >  
                > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
                never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
                Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
                growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
                and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
                wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
                need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
                strange bedfellows.
                >  
                > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
                an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
                wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
                they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
                it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
                gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
                Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
                corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
                supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
                Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
                there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
                from what's garbage.
                >  
                > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
                the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
                away with the plagerism etc.? 
                >  
                > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
                the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
                many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
                or such. 
                >  
                > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
                forever and ever?
                >  
                > Namaste
                > Ma-li
                >  
                >  
                >  
                >  
                >
                >
                > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Mi-li and All,
                > Many of those active chelas joining EK
                > in 1973, under Darwin, had become
                > 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
                > 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
                > However, most of those who have the
                > 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
                > the 7th when they become RESAs. This
                > is how HK maintains a reserve for the
                > RESA position.
                >
                > Klemp did replace some of those, of high
                > rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
                > but then he slowed other initiations down
                > due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
                > pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
                > Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
                > initiations above the 5th and, especially,
                > with any above the 7th!
                >
                > What's really ironic is that those chelas
                > Darwin skipped initiations on or who
                > were only 4ths for a few months before
                > getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
                > Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
                > the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
                > and Company all of their "fast tracked"
                > initiations!
                >
                > Now, however, a 5th needs to become
                > a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
                > they will be eligible for the 6th, and
                > a 6th needs to become an ESA before
                > they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
                > this process can vary some depending
                > upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
                > of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
                > through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
                > and RESA ass kissing!
                >
                > In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
                > are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
                > List" comes down from the ESC. They do
                > this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
                > why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
                > cases it's the computer generated list based
                > on one's membership date and last initiation
                > date and the approval of local H.I.s that
                > determine whether or not someone will
                > or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
                > the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
                >
                > If most ECKists knew how initiations were
                > really done they would know that the rest
                > of the crap about "inner communication"
                > with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
                >
                > FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
                > with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
                > etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
                > Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
                > membership current too. Otherwise, one
                > can/will get passed over for initiation.
                >
                > Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
                > basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
                > And, one has to watch one's "language."
                > You cannot share other beliefs and question
                > or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
                > myth or prediction is one such thing that
                > would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
                > are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
                > see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
                > basis need to know how to play-the-game.
                >
                > BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
                > to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
                > give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
                > year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
                > wants to go down in history as the biggest
                > and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
                > Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
                > training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
                > anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
                > This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Hello Prometheus,
                >
                > Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
                know how to use
                > Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
                shouldn't have.
                >
                > Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
                the lifetime
                > membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
                that after all these
                > years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
                When I would quesstion the
                > RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
                down because too
                > many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
                I know...I was just
                > a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
                about it or there
                > would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
                forever. lol
                >
                > Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
                there with the big
                > boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
                cracked up to be, or
                > was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
                5th's no longer
                > automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
                grandfathered in because I
                > had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
                give much thought to
                > my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
                much interaction with
                > people in public settings.
                >
                > Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
                sign a form so they can
                > have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
                make sure I wasn't a
                > child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
                was for insurance
                > purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
                various other friends who
                > are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
                had to have
                > background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
                to more government
                > interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
                had just been
                > informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
                gives the gov't access
                > to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
                ticked me off.
                >
                > Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
                bow to their wishes, or to
                > talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
                to send back my
                > certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
                place, and had no idea
                > such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
                end of it. How much
                > attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
                passed between
                > initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
                Computers are
                > marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
                "on the inner". Oops.
                >
                > Namaste
                > Ma-li
                >
                > Prometheus wrote:
                > Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
                >
                > I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
                > quarters) did recently to make you feel
                > uncomfortable and for you to have even
                > more misgivings. What are some of the
                > things that just don't feel right to you
                > anymore? Please share more.
                >
                > It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
                > is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
                > just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
                > permitted to question things like the
                > need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
                > or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
                > fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
                >
                > Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
                > had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
                > were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
                > were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
                > and fake.
                >
                > The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
                > phenomena and appeared when people were
                > trying to make a positive impression when
                > around other ECKists, or were so detached,
                > aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
                > with any empathy, as to what others were
                > going through. Some actually believed
                > they were having a "spiritual experience."
                > One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
                > feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
                > and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
                > However, for those who really "believed"
                > it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
                > or psychic experience just like with any other
                > feel good religion. Many times it was just an
                > "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Skypilot4mr Wrote:
                > I am a new member of this group,
                > and don't know exactly how to do
                > things here. So, I am just jumping
                > in with an email to introduce myself.
                >
                > I have been a member of Eckankar
                > since 1973, and have been debating
                > with myself for the last few years about
                > leaving the path. There are just too many
                > things that don't feel right to me anymore.
                >
                > I live in a rural community, have a disability
                > that precludes my going to ECK functions,
                > and there is no one in the ECK community
                > in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
                > talking to about my misgivings. They still
                > have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
                > I feel there must be something wrong with
                > me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
                >
                > After reading a few posts on this site,
                > I now realize there are others like me
                > who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
                > if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
                > doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
                > especially after what headquarters did
                > recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
                > go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
                > blind right now.
                >
                > Hope to get to know you folks better,
                > and you get to know me too.
                >
                > Skypilot4mr
                >
              • mishmisha9
                Hello, Ma-li! I m enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : ) Regarding your question about how Paul got away with making eckankar and the eck masters
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
                  Hello, Ma-li!

                  I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

                  Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
                  making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
                  different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
                  are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
                  lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

                  As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
                  wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
                  to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
                  physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
                  devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

                  But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
                  female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
                  had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
                  Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
                  of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
                  Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
                  Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
                  And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
                  those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
                  Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
                  showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
                  Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
                  this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
                  what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
                  his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
                  on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
                  which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
                  that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
                  difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
                  publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
                  deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
                  master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
                  Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

                  BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
                  links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
                  Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
                  and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

                  I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
                  eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
                  Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Good Morning All,
                  >  
                  > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
                  on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
                  Oh well...
                  >  
                  > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
                  the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
                  in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
                  takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
                  make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
                  down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
                  >  
                  > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
                  membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
                  same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
                  the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
                  devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
                  told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
                  got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
                  inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
                  and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                  >  
                  > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
                  several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
                  sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
                  freedom.
                  >  
                  > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
                  game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
                  were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
                  and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
                  of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
                  others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
                  >  
                  > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
                  path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
                  new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
                  confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
                  down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
                  least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
                  Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
                  religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
                  all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
                  >  
                  > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
                  of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
                  >  
                  > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
                  to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
                  never be a female because of energies, or such. 
                  >  
                  > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
                  >  
                  > Namaste
                  > Ma-li
                • Ma-li
                  You have no idea what a kick in the butt this has been to learn that something I really believed in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....that
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
                    You have no idea what a kick in the butt this has been to learn that something I really believed in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for financial gain, for power, and without a thought for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who actually bought into the "dream".
                     
                    Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable, and if I'd approve one.  B. was dying of cancer.  At the time I had no idea why she was asking me since she never wanted my opinion on anything else.  Of course, I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was such a dedicated Eckist.  I knew the two women didn't get along...B had told me many times of the nasty things the other did and said.  In fact, she's the one who told me the other had written ESC that I was inactive.  Anyway,  I thought no more about the incident or initiations, until years later when I began to wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th about someone's innitiation.  I suspected then that things weren't as they seemed.
                     
                    Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if I would recommend the initiation.  I know she didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted to refuse B her dying wish.  Doesn't matter now anyway.  This whole subject brings up a lot of bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of the back peddaling the former RESA did when I asked about things.  There was always an excuse, and always "because the Mahanta said so".  Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on the inner" that concerned me. 
                     
                    If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck friends, they would be horrified, and I would be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on the outside....way out of the loop.  It feels good to unload what has been on my mind, but there's still a little voice saying I'm going to get into big trouble for this.  Sure hope it's just paranoia.
                     
                    Thanks for the link.  I'll read it later today.
                     
                    Namaste
                    Ma-li
                     
                      


                    --- On Sat, 11/8/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                    From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:53 AM

                    Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
                    about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                    was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
                    be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
                    his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
                    another example showing he's a fake.

                    Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
                    from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                    Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
                    writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
                    get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
                    religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

                    He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
                    Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
                    writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
                    plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                    Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
                    to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
                    becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
                    be the Living Eck Master.

                    It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
                    your doubts on this forum.

                    Regards
                    Liska

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
                    <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Good Morning All,
                    >  
                    > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
                    beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
                    -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
                    >  
                    > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
                    because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
                    pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
                    initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
                    it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
                    member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
                    then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
                    remains there for over a decade.
                    >  
                    > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
                    my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
                    able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
                    I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
                    marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
                    promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
                    after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
                    getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
                    I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
                    about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
                    kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                    >  
                    > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
                    longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
                    by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
                    aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
                    freedom.
                    >  
                    > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
                    never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
                    Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
                    growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
                    and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
                    wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
                    need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
                    strange bedfellows.
                    >  
                    > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
                    an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
                    wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
                    they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
                    it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
                    gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
                    Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
                    corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
                    supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
                    Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
                    there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
                    from what's garbage.
                    >  
                    > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
                    the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
                    away with the plagerism etc.? 
                    >  
                    > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
                    the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
                    many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
                    or such. 
                    >  
                    > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
                    forever and ever?
                    >  
                    > Namaste
                    > Ma-li
                    >  
                    >  
                    >  
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...>
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    > Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Mi-li and All,
                    > Many of those active chelas joining EK
                    > in 1973, under Darwin, had become
                    > 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
                    > 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
                    > However, most of those who have the
                    > 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
                    > the 7th when they become RESAs. This
                    > is how HK maintains a reserve for the
                    > RESA position.
                    >
                    > Klemp did replace some of those, of high
                    > rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
                    > but then he slowed other initiations down
                    > due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
                    > pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
                    > Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
                    > initiations above the 5th and, especially,
                    > with any above the 7th!
                    >
                    > What's really ironic is that those chelas
                    > Darwin skipped initiations on or who
                    > were only 4ths for a few months before
                    > getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
                    > Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
                    > the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
                    > and Company all of their "fast tracked"
                    > initiations!
                    >
                    > Now, however, a 5th needs to become
                    > a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
                    > they will be eligible for the 6th, and
                    > a 6th needs to become an ESA before
                    > they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
                    > this process can vary some depending
                    > upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
                    > of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
                    > through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
                    > and RESA ass kissing!
                    >
                    > In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
                    > are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
                    > List" comes down from the ESC. They do
                    > this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
                    > why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
                    > cases it's the computer generated list based
                    > on one's membership date and last initiation
                    > date and the approval of local H.I.s that
                    > determine whether or not someone will
                    > or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
                    > the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
                    >
                    > If most ECKists knew how initiations were
                    > really done they would know that the rest
                    > of the crap about "inner communication"
                    > with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
                    >
                    > FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
                    > with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
                    > etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
                    > Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
                    > membership current too. Otherwise, one
                    > can/will get passed over for initiation.
                    >
                    > Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
                    > basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
                    > And, one has to watch one's "language."
                    > You cannot share other beliefs and question
                    > or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
                    > myth or prediction is one such thing that
                    > would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
                    > are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
                    > see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
                    > basis need to know how to play-the-game.
                    >
                    > BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
                    > to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
                    > give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
                    > year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
                    > wants to go down in history as the biggest
                    > and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
                    > Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
                    > training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
                    > anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
                    > This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > Hello Prometheus,
                    >
                    > Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
                    know how to use
                    > Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
                    shouldn't have.
                    >
                    > Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
                    the lifetime
                    > membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
                    that after all these
                    > years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
                    When I would quesstion the
                    > RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
                    down because too
                    > many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
                    I know...I was just
                    > a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
                    about it or there
                    > would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
                    forever. lol
                    >
                    > Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
                    there with the big
                    > boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
                    cracked up to be, or
                    > was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
                    5th's no longer
                    > automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
                    grandfathered in because I
                    > had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
                    give much thought to
                    > my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
                    much interaction with
                    > people in public settings.
                    >
                    > Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
                    sign a form so they can
                    > have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
                    make sure I wasn't a
                    > child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
                    was for insurance
                    > purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
                    various other friends who
                    > are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
                    had to have
                    > background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
                    to more government
                    > interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
                    had just been
                    > informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
                    gives the gov't access
                    > to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
                    ticked me off.
                    >
                    > Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
                    bow to their wishes, or to
                    > talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
                    to send back my
                    > certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
                    place, and had no idea
                    > such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
                    end of it. How much
                    > attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
                    passed between
                    > initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
                    Computers are
                    > marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
                    "on the inner". Oops.
                    >
                    > Namaste
                    > Ma-li
                    >
                    > Prometheus wrote:
                    > Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
                    >
                    > I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
                    > quarters) did recently to make you feel
                    > uncomfortable and for you to have even
                    > more misgivings. What are some of the
                    > things that just don't feel right to you
                    > anymore? Please share more.
                    >
                    > It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
                    > is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
                    > just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
                    > permitted to question things like the
                    > need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
                    > or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
                    > fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
                    >
                    > Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
                    > had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
                    > were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
                    > were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
                    > and fake.
                    >
                    > The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
                    > phenomena and appeared when people were
                    > trying to make a positive impression when
                    > around other ECKists, or were so detached,
                    > aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
                    > with any empathy, as to what others were
                    > going through. Some actually believed
                    > they were having a "spiritual experience."
                    > One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
                    > feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
                    > and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
                    > However, for those who really "believed"
                    > it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
                    > or psychic experience just like with any other
                    > feel good religion. Many times it was just an
                    > "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > Skypilot4mr Wrote:
                    > I am a new member of this group,
                    > and don't know exactly how to do
                    > things here. So, I am just jumping
                    > in with an email to introduce myself.
                    >
                    > I have been a member of Eckankar
                    > since 1973, and have been debating
                    > with myself for the last few years about
                    > leaving the path. There are just too many
                    > things that don't feel right to me anymore.
                    >
                    > I live in a rural community, have a disability
                    > that precludes my going to ECK functions,
                    > and there is no one in the ECK community
                    > in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
                    > talking to about my misgivings. They still
                    > have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
                    > I feel there must be something wrong with
                    > me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
                    >
                    > After reading a few posts on this site,
                    > I now realize there are others like me
                    > who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
                    > if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
                    > doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
                    > especially after what headquarters did
                    > recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
                    > go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
                    > blind right now.
                    >
                    > Hope to get to know you folks better,
                    > and you get to know me too.
                    >
                    > Skypilot4mr
                    >


                  • Ma-li
                    Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.   I
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
                      Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.
                       
                      I was thinking about the same thing shortly before your post came in.  If the internet had been around back then, Paul wouldn't have gotten away with all this stuff.  On the other hand, just from limited experience in this area with local eckists, if they accidently found this group, they would not believe one word of it.  Even if they read all the files, they'd say it was just malcontents who couldn't handle being true eckists.  Even my best friend, with whom I tried to discuss my feelings about all this, thinks I'm way off center.  She said, and I quote, "I'll bet this is just a test before you get your 6th".  BS!!!  If that were true, why would I have been having doubts for 5 years or more!
                       
                      Interesting about Joan.  Are you saying what I think you are saying?  It will be interesting to read his new book....when and if he ever writes one that isn't just chela experiences.
                       
                      Oh, the thread you all were on before .......why would HK need security people surrounding him, and why would he have any need for a flak vest????  He's supposed to be our protector against all sorts of bad stuff.  Can't he even protect himself?  I know, this is part of his disorder.  Never though he might have mental problems even tho' he did get naked at the airport way back when.  Oh lord, this is all too much for me to digest right now.
                       
                      I certainly hope having my eyes opened is spiritual growth 'cause if it ain't, then I'm in deep doodoo.
                       
                      Namaste
                      Ma-li
                       
                       

                      --- On Sat, 11/8/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                      From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:57 AM

                      Hello, Ma-li!

                      I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

                      Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
                      making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
                      different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
                      are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
                      lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

                      As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
                      wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
                      to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
                      physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
                      devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

                      But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
                      female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
                      had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
                      Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
                      of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
                      Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
                      Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
                      And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
                      those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
                      Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
                      showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
                      Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
                      this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
                      what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
                      his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
                      on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
                      which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
                      that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
                      difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
                      publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
                      deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
                      master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
                      Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

                      BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
                      links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
                      Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
                      and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

                      I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
                      eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
                      Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

                      Mish

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Good Morning All,
                      >  
                      > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
                      on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
                      Oh well...
                      >  
                      > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
                      the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
                      in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
                      takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
                      make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
                      down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
                      >  
                      > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
                      membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
                      same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
                      the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
                      devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
                      told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
                      got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
                      inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
                      and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                      >  
                      > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
                      several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
                      sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
                      freedom.
                      >  
                      > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
                      game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
                      were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
                      and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
                      of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
                      others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
                      >  
                      > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
                      path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
                      new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
                      confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
                      down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
                      least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
                      Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
                      religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
                      all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
                      >  
                      > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
                      of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
                      >  
                      > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
                      to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
                      never be a female because of energies, or such. 
                      >  
                      > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
                      >  
                      > Namaste
                      > Ma-li



                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Ma-li and All, First, I d like to point out that Kata-Daki (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell. Paul created this Female ECK Master in memory of his
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
                        Hello Ma-li and All,
                        First, I'd like to point out that Kata-Daki
                        (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell.
                        Paul created this Female ECK Master in
                        memory of his sister and nine years after
                        her death.

                        Anyway, I'd like to insert my comments
                        (below) to what has been shared.

                        Ma-li wrote:

                        "Looks like the few Eckists thee were
                        in this area back in the beginning,
                        missed the boat on the 7th initiations
                        by the late 80s -early 90s. The highest
                        there was then was a 4th. Oh well..."

                        ME: Some remote areas didn't have many
                        (any) H.I.s because most chelas need to
                        gain the attention of the powers that be
                        (the RESA).

                        "If I am understanding you, people like
                        me will never get further because we
                        don't have the resources, have health
                        issues, or may have pissed off someone
                        higher up who is now in a position of
                        power re: initiations etc. Gee, do you
                        think when the RESA's best friend takes
                        it upon herself to write ESC that another
                        chela isn't an active member, that it would
                        make a difference? Especially, if that person
                        then becomes RESA after the friend steps
                        down a year later, and remains there for
                        over a decade."

                        ME: Well, for promotion one needs to
                        become an Active Vahana (explorer) by
                        doing and participating in Intros or Book
                        Discussions or even teaching a Satsang
                        Class. Of course, one needs to be "trained"
                        and "have a solid foundation in the EK
                        teachings." Thus, just having an "Active"
                        (current & paid) ECK membership is not
                        enough. Eckankar is an "Outer" religion
                        just like all others!

                        "In the above instance, I was an active
                        member in as much that I paid my
                        yearly membership, wrote reports,
                        and went to functions when I was able.
                        I just wasn't in the same class as the
                        above mentioned people. I was a small
                        business owner, they were in the medical
                        profession by marriage. I didn't have the
                        money or the time they had to devote
                        to promoting Eckanakar. Maybe I'm all
                        wet about this, but I noticed after ESC
                        was told by this 4th that I was inactive,
                        other chela's kept getting their initiations,
                        but I never got another one. At some
                        point I didn't really care anymore, and
                        there were too many inconsistencies
                        about many things in the ECK community.
                        I have never been an ass kisser, and don't
                        plan to start at this point. lol"

                        ME: It seems that there are a lot of chiropractors,
                        acupuncturists, and massage therapists in
                        ECKankar. The former doesn't have the same
                        prestige (and vanity) associated with it than
                        the other two have. But, yes, the friends of
                        the RESA will be promoted faster than others
                        who are more spiritually advanced.

                        "I do know that when word gets out that
                        I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends
                        with several of the people...not by my choice,
                        but by theirs. Then the gossip will fly, and
                        all sorts of things that aren't true will be
                        spread about the area. Small price to pay
                        for freedom."

                        ME: It is true that many ECKists won't want
                        to associate with you. Some will be fearful
                        to hear the Truth, and some will see it as
                        being Negative. They won't want to be "infected,"
                        or have others (higher up) think they are in
                        agreement with some of your newly found
                        perspectives and insights. They don't want
                        to be Black Listed, too, on initiations.

                        "In short, guess I didn't play the game
                        very well. Of course, I never knew there
                        was a game when it came to one's spiritual
                        beliefs. Thought we were all on the same
                        page, and were there for spiritual growth.
                        Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the
                        business world, and the little, honest,
                        hardworking guy gets stepped on by
                        those wanting whatever place of power
                        was available. I don't understand the
                        need for power, and for causing grief
                        for others. Power makes for strange
                        bedfellows."

                        ME: No, you didn't play-the-game well
                        at all! Catch-22! Klemp mentions in his
                        accounts from being locked-up, in that
                        Mental Institution, that he learned to
                        "play-the-game" (PTG) with the psychologist
                        in order to be released early. HK used this
                        same PTG technique when he worked under
                        DG at the ESC by maintaining a wimpy facade
                        to disarm Gross. Darwin needed someone
                        who wanted to "write" and wimpy HK was
                        the obvious choice. Thus, DG promoted
                        Klemp with even more of Higher Initiations
                        and was unaware of Klemp's own power
                        game!


                        "The thing that appealed to me in the
                        beginning was that Eckankar was an
                        individual path. In a way that's BS, and
                        I see that now. Makes me wonder about
                        the many who are new to the path. When,
                        if ever, will they reach the point I've reached,
                        and will they be as confused about it as
                        I've been? I didn't have a clue about all
                        the things that have gone down until
                        I read some of the links on your group
                        home page. Blew my mind, to say the
                        least. So much deception, outright lies,
                        and corruption by those we put our trust
                        in. Eckankar, the path that was supposed
                        to be different, is no different that any other
                        religion. Granted, there is truth to be learned
                        from studying it, but then, there is truth in
                        all religions. We just have to discern what's
                        truth from what's garbage."

                        ME: ECKankar does start out as something
                        quite different from the end results! Way
                        back it did seem to be more "spiritual" and
                        an "individual path." Many of Twitchell's
                        plagiarized concepts were very intriguing
                        until one discovers that many of these were
                        taken from other fraudulent religions based
                        upon lies and myth and "tweaked" for the
                        Western New Age mindset.

                        "Did Paul just make up the number he used
                        as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
                        of his religion? If he made it all up, how did
                        he get away with the plagerism etc.?"

                        ME: As for the number 971 that's a puzzle,
                        except, Twitchell did die in the month of
                        September (9) and in the year 1971 (9/71)!
                        Ironic, that this is probably the only prophecy
                        that Twitchell got right, and PT didn't even
                        know what it really pertained to! Karma? LOL!

                        "Was the "new" female ECK Master also
                        a fabrication by HK to pacify the women
                        coming to the path? Seems I can remember
                        someone telling me many years ago that
                        there could never be a female because
                        of energies, or such."

                        ME: Well, according to EK Dogma there
                        can't be a Female LEM/Mahanta or Mahanta
                        in Training. However, there can be Female
                        12th Initiates who are ECK Masters and
                        are Not LEM/Mahantas. Kata Daki, otherwise,
                        wouldn't be called an ECK Master and listed
                        as a member of the Vairagi Order. Unless,
                        of course, she received her 12th on the
                        "Inner." However, even the LEM/Mahanta
                        has the "outer confirmation" of the 12th
                        initiation.

                        "How do you clip these posts in Yahoo
                        so that they don't go on forever and ever?"

                        ME: I first highlight the text I want to "reply to"
                        (before replying) then go to "edit" and "copy"
                        it. I then "reply" and do a "delete" of the whole
                        text before doing a "paste" of what I "copied."
                        You should also do a "preview" before posting.
                        You might want to go back and do more "editing"
                        before "previewing" it again and then "sending"
                        the final version. Just make sure that everyone
                        knows who said what. -Prometheus
                        p.s. I had to edit and repost this so those getting
                        the emails will have two similar ones.

                        Namaste
                        Ma-li

                        Prometheus wrote:

                        Hello Mi-li and All,
                        Many of those active chelas joining EK
                        in 1973, under Darwin, had become
                        7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
                        1991. Many others remained 6ths.
                        However, most of those who have the
                        6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
                        the 7th when they become RESAs. This
                        is how HK maintains a reserve for the
                        RESA position.

                        Klemp did replace some of those, of high
                        rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
                        but then he slowed other initiations down
                        due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
                        pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
                        Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
                        initiations above the 5th and, especially,
                        with any above the 7th!

                        What's really ironic is that those chelas
                        Darwin skipped initiations on or who
                        were only 4ths for a few months before
                        getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
                        Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
                        the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
                        and Company all of their "fast tracked"
                        initiations!

                        Now, however, a 5th needs to become
                        a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
                        they will be eligible for the 6th, and
                        a 6th needs to become an ESA before
                        they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
                        this process can vary some depending
                        upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
                        of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
                        through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
                        and RESA ass kissing!

                        In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
                        are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
                        List" comes down from the ESC. They do
                        this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
                        why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
                        cases it's the computer generated list based
                        on one's membership date and last initiation
                        date and the approval of local H.I.s that
                        determine whether or not someone will
                        or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
                        the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

                        If most ECKists knew how initiations were
                        really done they would know that the rest
                        of the crap about "inner communication"
                        with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

                        FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
                        with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
                        etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
                        Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
                        membership current too. Otherwise, one
                        can/will get passed over for initiation.

                        Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
                        basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
                        And, one has to watch one's "language."
                        You cannot share other beliefs and question
                        or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
                        myth or prediction is one such thing that
                        would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
                        are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
                        see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
                        basis need to know how to play-the-game.

                        BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
                        to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
                        give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
                        year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
                        wants to go down in history as the biggest
                        and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
                        Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
                        training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
                        anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
                        This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

                        Prometheus
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Ma-li and All, I was being asked to approve or disapprove potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA. I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                          Hello Ma-li and All,
                          I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                          potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                          I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                          Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                          universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                          and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                          basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                          hierarchy! Catch-22!

                          When one wants and needs to believe there is
                          always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                          It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                          to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                          oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                          their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                          them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                          see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                          a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                          own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                          Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                          Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                          created EK from what he read and learned on a
                          personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                          Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                          and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                          and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                          Catch-22 again!

                          And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                          protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                          Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                          talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                          ECK Temple and the ESC?

                          Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                          to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                          more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                          been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                          "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                          so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                          I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                          towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                          Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                          without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                          Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                          and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                          (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                          Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                          have the most to lose.

                          But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                          Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                          and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                          their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                          their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                          Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                          their Silence.

                          And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                          They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                          Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                          and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                          and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                          Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                          Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                          only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                          generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                          or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                          self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                          who couldn't function in the real world.


                          Prometheus

                          Ma-li wrote:

                          You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                          has been to learn that something I really believed
                          in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                          that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                          financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                          for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                          actually bought into the "dream".

                          Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                          I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                          and if I'd approve one.

                          B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                          idea why she was asking me since she never
                          wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                          I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                          such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                          didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                          the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                          she's the one who told me the other had written
                          ESC that I was inactive.

                          Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                          or initiations, until years later when I began to
                          wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                          knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                          about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                          things weren't as they seemed.

                          Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                          I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                          didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                          to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                          anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                          bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                          the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                          I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                          and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                          Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                          the inner" that concerned me.

                          If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                          friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                          be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on
                          the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                          to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                          still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                          big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                          Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                          Namaste
                          Ma-li

                          drubezarne wrote:

                          Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                          would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                          for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                          was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                          omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                          kind of thing. He would know everything and
                          make his determination based on a person's
                          spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                          showing he's a fake.

                          Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                          didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                          and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                          Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                          a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                          from his mentor that writing books was not
                          going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                          he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                          put himself at the head of it.

                          He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                          It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                          to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                          Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                          You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                          Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                          being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                          followers. He never explained how a female
                          becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                          says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                          It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                          by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                          Regards
                          Liska
                        • Leanne Thompson
                          Hi prometheus_973. I just had an EVIL thought. Can one call in as a pretend friend of an HI or RESA and recommend yourself ? Or any way of fooling them.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                            Hi prometheus_973. I just had an "EVIL" thought. Can one call in as a "pretend" friend of an HI or RESA and recommend "yourself"? Or any way of fooling them.
                             
                            Leanne

                            --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 11:54 AM

                            Hello Ma-li and All,
                            I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                            potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                            I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                            Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                            universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                            and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                            basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                            hierarchy! Catch-22!

                            When one wants and needs to believe there is
                            always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                            It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                            to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                            oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                            their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                            them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                            see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                            a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                            own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                            Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                            Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                            created EK from what he read and learned on a
                            personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                            Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                            and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                            and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                            Catch-22 again!

                            And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                            protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                            Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                            talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                            ECK Temple and the ESC?

                            Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                            to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                            more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                            been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                            "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                            so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                            I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                            towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                            Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                            without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                            Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                            and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                            (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                            Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                            have the most to lose.

                            But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                            Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                            and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                            their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                            their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                            Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                            their Silence.

                            And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                            They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                            Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                            and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                            and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                            Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                            Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                            only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                            generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                            or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                            self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                            who couldn't function in the real world.


                            Prometheus

                            Ma-li wrote:

                            You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                            has been to learn that something I really believed
                            in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                            that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                            financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                            for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                            actually bought into the "dream".

                            Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                            I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                            and if I'd approve one.

                            B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                            idea why she was asking me since she never
                            wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                            I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                            such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                            didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                            the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                            she's the one who told me the other had written
                            ESC that I was inactive.

                            Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                            or initiations, until years later when I began to
                            wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                            knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                            about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                            things weren't as they seemed.

                            Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                            I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                            didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                            to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                            anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                            bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                            the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                            I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                            and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                            Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                            the inner" that concerned me.

                            If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                            friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                            be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                            the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                            to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                            still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                            big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                            Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                            Namaste
                            Ma-li

                            drubezarne wrote:

                            Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                            would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                            for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                            was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                            omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                            kind of thing. He would know everything and
                            make his determination based on a person's
                            spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                            showing he's a fake.

                            Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                            didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                            and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                            Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                            a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                            from his mentor that writing books was not
                            going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                            he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                            put himself at the head of it.

                            He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                            It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                            to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                            Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                            You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                            Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                            being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                            followers. He never explained how a female
                            becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                            says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                            It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                            by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                            Regards
                            Liska


                          • prometheus_973
                            Hi Leanne and All, No, the RESA or another H.I. calls you to check out someone for initiation. You don t call them, unless, you have a complaint to file. Now
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                              Hi Leanne and All,
                              No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                              you to check out someone for initiation.
                              You don't call them, unless, you have
                              a complaint to file. Now this could
                              screw someone for initiation! And
                              often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                              out the complaint fully, or get the
                              other side of the story. It all depends.

                              Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                              in place they will sometimes stick together
                              and accept gossip when a sister has been
                              "wronged," or "offended."

                              Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                              by another EK female or by an EK male.
                              There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                              there and sometimes guys will hit on
                              newbies because their own marriage
                              was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                              initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                              Some EK women don't like being dumped
                              or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                              tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                              seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                              the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                              than regular non-ECKists... right?

                              Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                              if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                              call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                              just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                              meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                              seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                              filing the complaint has the "credentials."

                              Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                              and one person tried to drag me into the
                              middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                              an eye on things better, but still had to do
                              some damage control once. There were some
                              chelas that were really good manipulators
                              and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                              I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                              one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                              It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                              when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                              many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                              and one is always having to "act" a part and
                              be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                              and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                              Prometheus



                              Hi prometheus,
                              I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                              Can one call in as a "pretend"
                              friend of an HI or RESA and
                              recommend "yourself"?
                              Or any way of fooling them.

                              Leanne

                              prometheus wrote:

                              Hello Ma-li and All,
                              I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                              potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                              I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                              Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                              universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                              and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                              basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                              hierarchy! Catch-22!

                              When one wants and needs to believe there is
                              always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                              It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                              to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                              oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                              their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                              them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                              see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                              a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                              own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                              Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                              Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                              created EK from what he read and learned on a
                              personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                              Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                              and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                              and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                              Catch-22 again!

                              And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                              protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                              Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                              talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                              ECK Temple and the ESC?

                              Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                              to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                              more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                              been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                              "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                              so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                              I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                              towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                              Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                              without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                              Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                              and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                              (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                              Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                              have the most to lose.

                              But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                              Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                              and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                              their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                              their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                              Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                              their Silence.

                              And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                              They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                              Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                              and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                              and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                              Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                              Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                              only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                              generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                              or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                              self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                              who couldn't function in the real world.


                              Prometheus

                              Ma-li wrote:

                              You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                              has been to learn that something I really believed
                              in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                              that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                              financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                              for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                              actually bought into the "dream".

                              Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                              I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                              and if I'd approve one.

                              B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                              idea why she was asking me since she never
                              wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                              I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                              such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                              didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                              the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                              she's the one who told me the other had written
                              ESC that I was inactive.

                              Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                              or initiations, until years later when I began to
                              wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                              knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                              about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                              things weren't as they seemed.

                              Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                              I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                              didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                              to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                              anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                              bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                              the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                              I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                              and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                              Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                              the inner" that concerned me.

                              If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                              friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                              be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                              the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                              to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                              still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                              big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                              Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                              Namaste
                              Ma-li

                              drubezarne wrote:

                              Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                              would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                              for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                              was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                              omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                              kind of thing. He would know everything and
                              make his determination based on a person's
                              spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                              showing he's a fake.

                              Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                              didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                              and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                              Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                              a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                              from his mentor that writing books was not
                              going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                              he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                              put himself at the head of it.

                              He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                              It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                              to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                              Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                              You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                              Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                              being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                              followers. He never explained how a female
                              becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                              says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                              It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                              by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                              Regards
                              Liska
                            • Leanne Thompson
                              Even calling headquarters wont work? Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.   Leanne ... From: prometheus_973
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 10, 2008
                                Even calling headquarters wont work?
                                Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.
                                 
                                Leanne

                                --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 9:01 PM

                                Hi Leanne and All,
                                No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                                you to check out someone for initiation.
                                You don't call them, unless, you have
                                a complaint to file. Now this could
                                screw someone for initiation! And
                                often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                                out the complaint fully, or get the
                                other side of the story. It all depends.

                                Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                                in place they will sometimes stick together
                                and accept gossip when a sister has been
                                "wronged," or "offended."

                                Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                                by another EK female or by an EK male.
                                There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                                there and sometimes guys will hit on
                                newbies because their own marriage
                                was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                                initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                                Some EK women don't like being dumped
                                or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                                tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                                seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                                the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                                than regular non-ECKists. .. right?

                                Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                                if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                                call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                                just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                                meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                                seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                                filing the complaint has the "credentials. "

                                Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                                and one person tried to drag me into the
                                middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                                an eye on things better, but still had to do
                                some damage control once. There were some
                                chelas that were really good manipulators
                                and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                                I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                                one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                                It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                                when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                                many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                                and one is always having to "act" a part and
                                be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                                and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                                Prometheus


                                Hi prometheus,
                                I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                                Can one call in as a "pretend"
                                friend of an HI or RESA and
                                recommend "yourself"?
                                Or any way of fooling them.

                                Leanne

                                prometheus wrote:

                                Hello Ma-li and All,
                                I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                                potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                                I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                                Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                                universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                                and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                                basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                                hierarchy! Catch-22!

                                When one wants and needs to believe there is
                                always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                                It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                                to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                                oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                                their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                                them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                                see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                                a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                                own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                                Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                                Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                                created EK from what he read and learned on a
                                personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                                Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                                and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                                and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                                Catch-22 again!

                                And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                                protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                                Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                                talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                                ECK Temple and the ESC?

                                Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                                to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                                more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                                been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                                "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                                so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                                I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                                towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                                Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                                without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                                Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                                and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                                (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                                Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                                have the most to lose.

                                But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                                Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                                and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                                their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                                their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                                Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                                their Silence.

                                And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                                They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                                Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                                and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                                and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                                Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                                Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                                only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                                generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                                or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                                self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                                who couldn't function in the real world.

                                Prometheus

                                Ma-li wrote:

                                You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                                has been to learn that something I really believed
                                in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                                that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                                financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                                for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                                actually bought into the "dream".

                                Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                                I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                                and if I'd approve one.

                                B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                                idea why she was asking me since she never
                                wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                                I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                                such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                                didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                                the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                                she's the one who told me the other had written
                                ESC that I was inactive.

                                Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                                or initiations, until years later when I began to
                                wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                                knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                                about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                                things weren't as they seemed.

                                Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                                I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                                didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                                to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                                anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                                bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                                the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                                I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                                and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                                Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                                the inner" that concerned me.

                                If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                                friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                                be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                                the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                                to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                                still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                                big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                                Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                                Namaste
                                Ma-li

                                drubezarne wrote:

                                Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                                would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                                for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                                was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                                omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                                kind of thing. He would know everything and
                                make his determination based on a person's
                                spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                                showing he's a fake.

                                Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                                didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                                and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                                Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                                a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                                from his mentor that writing books was not
                                going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                                he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                                put himself at the head of it.

                                He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                                It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                                to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                                Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                                You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                                Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                                being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                                followers. He never explained how a female
                                becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                                says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                                It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                                by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                                Regards
                                Liska


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