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  • Ma-li
    Hello,   I am a new member of this group, and don t know exactly how to do things here.  So, I am just jumping in with an email to introduce myself.   I
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 6, 2008
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      Hello,
       
      I am a new member of this group, and don't know exactly how to do things here.  So, I am just jumping in with an email to introduce myself.
       
      I have been a member of Eckankar since 1973, and have been debating with myself for the last few years about leaving the path.  There are just too many things that don't feel right to me anymore.  I live in a rural community, have a disability that precludes my going to ECK functions, and there is no one in the ECK community in the entire area, that I feel comfortable talking to about my misgivings.  They still have "the glow" about being Eckists, and I feel there must be something wrong with me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
       
      After reading a few posts on this site, I now realize there are others like me who "see" things just aren't right anymore...if they ever were.  I am an HI, but it really doesn't mean anything to me anymore...especially after what headquarters did recently.  I am in a quandry. This doesn't go into much depth, but I'm writing in the blind right now.
       
      Hope to get to know you folks better, and you get to know me too.
       
      Skypilot4mr
       
       

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site! I m curious to know what the ESC (head- quarters) did recently to make you feel uncomfortable and for you to have even
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 6, 2008
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        Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

        I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
        quarters) did recently to make you feel
        uncomfortable and for you to have even
        more misgivings. What are some of the
        things that just don't feel right to you
        anymore? Please share more.

        It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
        is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
        just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
        permitted to question things like the
        need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
        or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
        fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

        Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
        had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
        were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
        were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
        and fake.

        The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
        phenomena and appeared when people were
        trying to make a positive impression when
        around other ECKists, or were so detached,
        aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
        with any empathy, as to what others were
        going through. Some actually believed
        they were having a "spiritual experience."
        One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
        feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
        and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
        However, for those who really "believed"
        it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
        or psychic experience just like with any other
        feel good religion. Many times it was just an
        "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.


        Prometheus


        Skypilot4mr Wrote:
        I am a new member of this group,
        and don't know exactly how to do
        things here. So, I am just jumping
        in with an email to introduce myself.

        I have been a member of Eckankar
        since 1973, and have been debating
        with myself for the last few years about
        leaving the path. There are just too many
        things that don't feel right to me anymore.

        I live in a rural community, have a disability
        that precludes my going to ECK functions,
        and there is no one in the ECK community
        in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
        talking to about my misgivings. They still
        have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
        I feel there must be something wrong with
        me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

        After reading a few posts on this site,
        I now realize there are others like me
        who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
        if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
        doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
        especially after what headquarters did
        recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
        go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
        blind right now.

        Hope to get to know you folks better,
        and you get to know me too.

        Skypilot4mr
      • Leanne Thompson
        Hi prometheus. WHen that lady went kooky while running down the isle towards harold did anyone else join in to help you? I remmeber ROn Lavanerir telling a
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 6, 2008
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          Hi prometheus. WHen that lady went kooky while running down the isle towards harold did anyone else join in to help you? I remmeber ROn Lavanerir telling a group I was in about this and I kind of laughed.
           
          THanks
          Leanne

          --- On Thu, 11/6/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 8:13 PM

          Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

          I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
          quarters) did recently to make you feel
          uncomfortable and for you to have even
          more misgivings. What are some of the
          things that just don't feel right to you
          anymore? Please share more.

          It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
          is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
          just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
          permitted to question things like the
          need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
          or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
          fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

          Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
          had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
          were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
          were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
          and fake.

          The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
          phenomena and appeared when people were
          trying to make a positive impression when
          around other ECKists, or were so detached,
          aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
          with any empathy, as to what others were
          going through. Some actually believed
          they were having a "spiritual experience."
          One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
          feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
          and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
          However, for those who really "believed"
          it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
          or psychic experience just like with any other
          feel good religion. Many times it was just an
          "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

          Prometheus

          Skypilot4mr Wrote:
          I am a new member of this group,
          and don't know exactly how to do
          things here. So, I am just jumping
          in with an email to introduce myself.

          I have been a member of Eckankar
          since 1973, and have been debating
          with myself for the last few years about
          leaving the path. There are just too many
          things that don't feel right to me anymore.

          I live in a rural community, have a disability
          that precludes my going to ECK functions,
          and there is no one in the ECK community
          in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
          talking to about my misgivings. They still
          have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
          I feel there must be something wrong with
          me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

          After reading a few posts on this site,
          I now realize there are others like me
          who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
          if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
          doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
          especially after what headquarters did
          recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
          go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
          blind right now.

          Hope to get to know you folks better,
          and you get to know me too.

          Skypilot4mr



        • Ma-li
          Hello Prometheus,   Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same.  Don t know how to use Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 7, 2008
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            Hello Prometheus,
             
            Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same.  Don't know how to use Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I shouldn't have.
             
            Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973.  I never bought the lifetime membership because I couldn't afford it.  Anyway, you would expect that after all these years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.  When I would quesstion the RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things down because too many were getting to far too fast.  Sounded wrong to me, but what did I know...I was just a lowly peon at the time.  Of course, we couldn't question the Master about it or there would never be another intiiation.  God forbid I'd be a lowly loser forever. lol
             
            Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th.  Yipee, I finally was there with the big boys.  Funny thing, nothing changed.  Was that initiation all it was cracked up to be, or was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and 5th's no longer automatically became clerics without taking the training.  I was grandfathered in because I had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't give much thought to my staus as a cleric.  As I said, I have a disability that precludes much interaction with people in public settings.
             
            Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and sign a form so they can have a private company do a criminal background check.  This was to make sure I wasn't a child predator, molester etc.  Talk about a slap in the face!!!!  It was for insurance purposes, they said.  Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to various other friends who are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled.  They hadn't had to have background checks.  All that aside, there was no way I would consent to more government interference in my life, and refused to sign.  Told them why also.  (I had just been informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that gives the gov't access to my pc...according to the new law.)  Those two letters really ticked me off. 
             
            Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to bow to their wishes, or to talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me to send back my certificate and ID card.  Wow!  I NEVER got a certificate in the first place, and had no idea such a thing even existed.  Sent them the ID card, and that was the end of it.  How much attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years passed between initiations?  I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.  Computers are marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done "on the inner". Oops.
             
            Namaste
            Ma-li

            --- On Thu, 11/6/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 9:13 PM

            Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

            I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
            quarters) did recently to make you feel
            uncomfortable and for you to have even
            more misgivings. What are some of the
            things that just don't feel right to you
            anymore? Please share more.

            It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
            is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
            just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
            permitted to question things like the
            need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
            or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
            fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

            Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
            had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
            were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
            were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
            and fake.

            The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
            phenomena and appeared when people were
            trying to make a positive impression when
            around other ECKists, or were so detached,
            aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
            with any empathy, as to what others were
            going through. Some actually believed
            they were having a "spiritual experience."
            One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
            feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
            and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
            However, for those who really "believed"
            it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
            or psychic experience just like with any other
            feel good religion. Many times it was just an
            "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

            Prometheus

            Skypilot4mr Wrote:
            I am a new member of this group,
            and don't know exactly how to do
            things here. So, I am just jumping
            in with an email to introduce myself.

            I have been a member of Eckankar
            since 1973, and have been debating
            with myself for the last few years about
            leaving the path. There are just too many
            things that don't feel right to me anymore.

            I live in a rural community, have a disability
            that precludes my going to ECK functions,
            and there is no one in the ECK community
            in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
            talking to about my misgivings. They still
            have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
            I feel there must be something wrong with
            me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

            After reading a few posts on this site,
            I now realize there are others like me
            who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
            if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
            doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
            especially after what headquarters did
            recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
            go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
            blind right now.

            Hope to get to know you folks better,
            and you get to know me too.

            Skypilot4mr



          • prometheus_973
            Hello Mi-li and All, Many of those active chelas joining EK in 1973, under Darwin, had become 7ths in the mid to late 1980 s or by 1991. Many others remained
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 7, 2008
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              Hello Mi-li and All,
              Many of those active chelas joining EK
              in 1973, under Darwin, had become
              7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
              1991. Many others remained 6ths.
              However, most of those who have the
              6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
              the 7th when they become RESAs. This
              is how HK maintains a reserve for the
              RESA position.

              Klemp did replace some of those, of high
              rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
              but then he slowed other initiations down
              due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
              pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
              Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
              initiations above the 5th and, especially,
              with any above the 7th!

              What's really ironic is that those chelas
              Darwin skipped initiations on or who
              were only 4ths for a few months before
              getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
              Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
              the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
              and Company all of their "fast tracked"
              initiations!


              Now, however, a 5th needs to become
              a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
              they will be eligible for the 6th, and
              a 6th needs to become an ESA before
              they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
              this process can vary some depending
              upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
              of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
              through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
              and RESA ass kissing!

              In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
              are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
              List" comes down from the ESC. They do
              this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
              why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
              cases it's the computer generated list based
              on one's membership date and last initiation
              date and the approval of local H.I.s that
              determine whether or not someone will
              or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
              the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

              If most ECKists knew how initiations were
              really done they would know that the rest
              of the crap about "inner communication"
              with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

              FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
              with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
              etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
              Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
              membership current too. Otherwise, one
              can/will get passed over for initiation.

              Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
              basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
              And, one has to watch one's "language."
              You cannot share other beliefs and question
              or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
              myth or prediction is one such thing that
              would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
              are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
              see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
              basis need to know how to play-the-game.

              BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
              to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
              give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
              year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
              wants to go down in history as the biggest
              and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
              Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
              training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
              anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
              This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

              Prometheus



              Hello Prometheus,

              Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't know how to use
              Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I shouldn't have.

              Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought the lifetime
              membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect that after all these
              years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th. When I would quesstion the
              RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things down because too
              many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did I know...I was just
              a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master about it or there
              would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser forever. lol

              Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was there with the big
              boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was cracked up to be, or
              was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and 5th's no longer
              automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was grandfathered in because I
              had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't give much thought to
              my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes much interaction with
              people in public settings.

              Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and sign a form so they can
              have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to make sure I wasn't a
              child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It was for insurance
              purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to various other friends who
              are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't had to have
              background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent to more government
              interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I had just been
              informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that gives the gov't access
              to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really ticked me off.

              Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to bow to their wishes, or to
              talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me to send back my
              certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first place, and had no idea
              such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the end of it. How much
              attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years passed between
              initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time. Computers are
              marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done "on the inner". Oops.

              Namaste
              Ma-li

              Prometheus wrote:
              Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

              I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
              quarters) did recently to make you feel
              uncomfortable and for you to have even
              more misgivings. What are some of the
              things that just don't feel right to you
              anymore? Please share more.

              It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
              is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
              just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
              permitted to question things like the
              need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
              or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
              fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

              Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
              had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
              were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
              were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
              and fake.

              The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
              phenomena and appeared when people were
              trying to make a positive impression when
              around other ECKists, or were so detached,
              aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
              with any empathy, as to what others were
              going through. Some actually believed
              they were having a "spiritual experience."
              One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
              feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
              and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
              However, for those who really "believed"
              it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
              or psychic experience just like with any other
              feel good religion. Many times it was just an
              "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

              Prometheus

              Skypilot4mr Wrote:
              I am a new member of this group,
              and don't know exactly how to do
              things here. So, I am just jumping
              in with an email to introduce myself.

              I have been a member of Eckankar
              since 1973, and have been debating
              with myself for the last few years about
              leaving the path. There are just too many
              things that don't feel right to me anymore.

              I live in a rural community, have a disability
              that precludes my going to ECK functions,
              and there is no one in the ECK community
              in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
              talking to about my misgivings. They still
              have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
              I feel there must be something wrong with
              me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

              After reading a few posts on this site,
              I now realize there are others like me
              who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
              if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
              doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
              especially after what headquarters did
              recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
              go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
              blind right now.

              Hope to get to know you folks better,
              and you get to know me too.

              Skypilot4mr
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Leanne and All, Yes, I mentioned that we stopped her. ECKists want to protect their Mahanta (while he doesn t lift a finger to protect them),
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 7, 2008
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                Hello Leanne and All,
                Yes, I mentioned that "we" stopped
                her. ECKists want to protect their
                Mahanta (while he doesn't lift a
                finger to protect them), therefore,
                there was plenty of help including
                EK security. When I told people about
                what happened I don't think that
                anyone laughed (well maybe one guy)
                they were shocked and concerned.

                The first reaction was concern for
                Klemp's safety and the next reaction
                was concern for the ECKist. After that,
                the more times the story was told the
                funnier it seemed. I'm not sure if I saw
                Ron there, outside, with us or not. I
                can't recall seeing him.

                Prometheus


                Leanne wrote:
                >
                Hi prometheus. WHen that lady
                went kooky while running down
                the isle towards harold did anyone
                else join in to help you? I remember
                ROn Lavanerir telling a group I was
                in about this and I kind of laughed.
                >  
                THanks
                Leanne

                Prometheus wrote:

                Hello Liska and All,
                I think that Klemp just remarked that
                sometimes people get too much of the
                "ECK" at the seminars and will become
                overloaded and out of balance. It seemed
                like everyone related to HK's remarks.
                He could have said more about this but
                I was outside near the entryway to the
                main hall with the woman, and other
                H.I.s and security people.

                I'm almost thinking that this was an
                Orlando venue for this major EK seminar.
                I know it wasn't in Minneapolis. I was
                seated near the center of the main aisle
                and heard her yelling and then saw her
                running and waving her arms as she ran
                down the aisle and approached me.


                "We" stopped her about 50 feet from
                the stage and escorted her outside near
                the entrance. Actually, she was confused
                and suffering from what some call a
                "nervous (mental) breakdown" much like
                Klemp experienced when he jumped off
                that bridge and did a striptease at an
                airport in 1970.


                I heard Harry comment upon the incident
                while escorting her out and while standing
                outside through a partly open door.

                It is interesting that when things like this
                happen to others (except Klemp) it's referred
                to as getting too much of the "ECK" and being
                overloaded. With Klemp, it was the result of
                God-Realization! LOL!

                Prometheus
              • Ma-li
                Good Morning All,   Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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                  Good Morning All,
                   
                  Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
                   
                  If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
                   
                  In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                   
                  I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for freedom.
                   
                  In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world, and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
                   
                  The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
                   
                  Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
                   
                  Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies, or such. 
                   
                  How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
                   
                  Namaste
                  Ma-li
                   
                   
                   
                   


                  --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM

                  Hello Mi-li and All,
                  Many of those active chelas joining EK
                  in 1973, under Darwin, had become
                  7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
                  1991. Many others remained 6ths.
                  However, most of those who have the
                  6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
                  the 7th when they become RESAs. This
                  is how HK maintains a reserve for the
                  RESA position.

                  Klemp did replace some of those, of high
                  rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
                  but then he slowed other initiations down
                  due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
                  pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
                  Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
                  initiations above the 5th and, especially,
                  with any above the 7th!

                  What's really ironic is that those chelas
                  Darwin skipped initiations on or who
                  were only 4ths for a few months before
                  getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
                  Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
                  the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
                  and Company all of their "fast tracked"
                  initiations!

                  Now, however, a 5th needs to become
                  a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
                  they will be eligible for the 6th, and
                  a 6th needs to become an ESA before
                  they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
                  this process can vary some depending
                  upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
                  of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
                  through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
                  and RESA ass kissing!

                  In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
                  are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
                  List" comes down from the ESC. They do
                  this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
                  why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
                  cases it's the computer generated list based
                  on one's membership date and last initiation
                  date and the approval of local H.I.s that
                  determine whether or not someone will
                  or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
                  the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

                  If most ECKists knew how initiations were
                  really done they would know that the rest
                  of the crap about "inner communication"
                  with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

                  FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
                  with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
                  etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
                  Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
                  membership current too. Otherwise, one
                  can/will get passed over for initiation.

                  Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
                  basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
                  And, one has to watch one's "language."
                  You cannot share other beliefs and question
                  or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
                  myth or prediction is one such thing that
                  would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
                  are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
                  see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
                  basis need to know how to play-the-game.

                  BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
                  to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
                  give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
                  year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
                  wants to go down in history as the biggest
                  and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
                  Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
                  training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
                  anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
                  This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

                  Prometheus

                  Hello Prometheus,

                  Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't know how to use
                  Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I shouldn't have.

                  Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought the lifetime
                  membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect that after all these
                  years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th. When I would quesstion the
                  RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things down because too
                  many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did I know...I was just
                  a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master about it or there
                  would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser forever. lol

                  Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was there with the big
                  boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was cracked up to be, or
                  was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and 5th's no longer
                  automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was grandfathered in because I
                  had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't give much thought to
                  my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes much interaction with
                  people in public settings.

                  Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and sign a form so they can
                  have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to make sure I wasn't a
                  child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It was for insurance
                  purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to various other friends who
                  are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't had to have
                  background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent to more government
                  interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I had just been
                  informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that gives the gov't access
                  to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really ticked me off.

                  Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to bow to their wishes, or to
                  talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me to send back my
                  certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first place, and had no idea
                  such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the end of it. How much
                  attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years passed between
                  initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time. Computers are
                  marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done "on the inner". Oops.

                  Namaste
                  Ma-li

                  Prometheus wrote:
                  Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

                  I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
                  quarters) did recently to make you feel
                  uncomfortable and for you to have even
                  more misgivings. What are some of the
                  things that just don't feel right to you
                  anymore? Please share more.

                  It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
                  is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
                  just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
                  permitted to question things like the
                  need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
                  or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
                  fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

                  Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
                  had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
                  were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
                  were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
                  and fake.

                  The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
                  phenomena and appeared when people were
                  trying to make a positive impression when
                  around other ECKists, or were so detached,
                  aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
                  with any empathy, as to what others were
                  going through. Some actually believed
                  they were having a "spiritual experience."
                  One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
                  feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
                  and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
                  However, for those who really "believed"
                  it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
                  or psychic experience just like with any other
                  feel good religion. Many times it was just an
                  "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

                  Prometheus

                  Skypilot4mr Wrote:
                  I am a new member of this group,
                  and don't know exactly how to do
                  things here. So, I am just jumping
                  in with an email to introduce myself.

                  I have been a member of Eckankar
                  since 1973, and have been debating
                  with myself for the last few years about
                  leaving the path. There are just too many
                  things that don't feel right to me anymore.

                  I live in a rural community, have a disability
                  that precludes my going to ECK functions,
                  and there is no one in the ECK community
                  in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
                  talking to about my misgivings. They still
                  have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
                  I feel there must be something wrong with
                  me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

                  After reading a few posts on this site,
                  I now realize there are others like me
                  who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
                  if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
                  doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
                  especially after what headquarters did
                  recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
                  go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
                  blind right now.

                  Hope to get to know you folks better,
                  and you get to know me too.

                  Skypilot4mr


                • drubezarne
                  Ma-li, I ve been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp was what he claimed to be
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
                    about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                    was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
                    be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
                    his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
                    another example showing he's a fake.

                    Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
                    from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                    Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
                    writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
                    get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
                    religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

                    He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
                    Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
                    writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
                    plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                    Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
                    to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
                    becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
                    be the Living Eck Master.

                    It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
                    your doubts on this forum.

                    Regards
                    Liska




                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
                    <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Good Morning All,
                    >  
                    > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
                    beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
                    -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
                    >  
                    > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
                    because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
                    pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
                    initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
                    it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
                    member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
                    then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
                    remains there for over a decade.
                    >  
                    > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
                    my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
                    able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
                    I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
                    marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
                    promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
                    after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
                    getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
                    I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
                    about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
                    kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                    >  
                    > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
                    longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
                    by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
                    aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
                    freedom.
                    >  
                    > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
                    never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
                    Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
                    growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
                    and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
                    wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
                    need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
                    strange bedfellows.
                    >  
                    > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
                    an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
                    wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
                    they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
                    it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
                    gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
                    Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
                    corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
                    supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
                    Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
                    there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
                    from what's garbage.
                    >  
                    > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
                    the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
                    away with the plagerism etc.? 
                    >  
                    > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
                    the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
                    many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
                    or such. 
                    >  
                    > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
                    forever and ever?
                    >  
                    > Namaste
                    > Ma-li
                    >  
                    >  
                    >  
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Mi-li and All,
                    > Many of those active chelas joining EK
                    > in 1973, under Darwin, had become
                    > 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
                    > 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
                    > However, most of those who have the
                    > 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
                    > the 7th when they become RESAs. This
                    > is how HK maintains a reserve for the
                    > RESA position.
                    >
                    > Klemp did replace some of those, of high
                    > rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
                    > but then he slowed other initiations down
                    > due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
                    > pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
                    > Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
                    > initiations above the 5th and, especially,
                    > with any above the 7th!
                    >
                    > What's really ironic is that those chelas
                    > Darwin skipped initiations on or who
                    > were only 4ths for a few months before
                    > getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
                    > Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
                    > the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
                    > and Company all of their "fast tracked"
                    > initiations!
                    >
                    > Now, however, a 5th needs to become
                    > a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
                    > they will be eligible for the 6th, and
                    > a 6th needs to become an ESA before
                    > they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
                    > this process can vary some depending
                    > upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
                    > of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
                    > through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
                    > and RESA ass kissing!
                    >
                    > In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
                    > are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
                    > List" comes down from the ESC. They do
                    > this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
                    > why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
                    > cases it's the computer generated list based
                    > on one's membership date and last initiation
                    > date and the approval of local H.I.s that
                    > determine whether or not someone will
                    > or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
                    > the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
                    >
                    > If most ECKists knew how initiations were
                    > really done they would know that the rest
                    > of the crap about "inner communication"
                    > with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
                    >
                    > FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
                    > with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
                    > etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
                    > Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
                    > membership current too. Otherwise, one
                    > can/will get passed over for initiation.
                    >
                    > Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
                    > basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
                    > And, one has to watch one's "language."
                    > You cannot share other beliefs and question
                    > or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
                    > myth or prediction is one such thing that
                    > would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
                    > are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
                    > see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
                    > basis need to know how to play-the-game.
                    >
                    > BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
                    > to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
                    > give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
                    > year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
                    > wants to go down in history as the biggest
                    > and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
                    > Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
                    > training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
                    > anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
                    > This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > Hello Prometheus,
                    >
                    > Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
                    know how to use
                    > Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
                    shouldn't have.
                    >
                    > Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
                    the lifetime
                    > membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
                    that after all these
                    > years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
                    When I would quesstion the
                    > RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
                    down because too
                    > many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
                    I know...I was just
                    > a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
                    about it or there
                    > would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
                    forever. lol
                    >
                    > Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
                    there with the big
                    > boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
                    cracked up to be, or
                    > was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
                    5th's no longer
                    > automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
                    grandfathered in because I
                    > had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
                    give much thought to
                    > my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
                    much interaction with
                    > people in public settings.
                    >
                    > Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
                    sign a form so they can
                    > have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
                    make sure I wasn't a
                    > child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
                    was for insurance
                    > purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
                    various other friends who
                    > are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
                    had to have
                    > background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
                    to more government
                    > interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
                    had just been
                    > informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
                    gives the gov't access
                    > to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
                    ticked me off.
                    >
                    > Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
                    bow to their wishes, or to
                    > talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
                    to send back my
                    > certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
                    place, and had no idea
                    > such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
                    end of it. How much
                    > attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
                    passed between
                    > initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
                    Computers are
                    > marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
                    "on the inner". Oops.
                    >
                    > Namaste
                    > Ma-li
                    >
                    > Prometheus wrote:
                    > Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
                    >
                    > I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
                    > quarters) did recently to make you feel
                    > uncomfortable and for you to have even
                    > more misgivings. What are some of the
                    > things that just don't feel right to you
                    > anymore? Please share more.
                    >
                    > It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
                    > is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
                    > just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
                    > permitted to question things like the
                    > need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
                    > or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
                    > fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
                    >
                    > Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
                    > had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
                    > were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
                    > were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
                    > and fake.
                    >
                    > The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
                    > phenomena and appeared when people were
                    > trying to make a positive impression when
                    > around other ECKists, or were so detached,
                    > aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
                    > with any empathy, as to what others were
                    > going through. Some actually believed
                    > they were having a "spiritual experience."
                    > One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
                    > feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
                    > and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
                    > However, for those who really "believed"
                    > it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
                    > or psychic experience just like with any other
                    > feel good religion. Many times it was just an
                    > "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > Skypilot4mr Wrote:
                    > I am a new member of this group,
                    > and don't know exactly how to do
                    > things here. So, I am just jumping
                    > in with an email to introduce myself.
                    >
                    > I have been a member of Eckankar
                    > since 1973, and have been debating
                    > with myself for the last few years about
                    > leaving the path. There are just too many
                    > things that don't feel right to me anymore.
                    >
                    > I live in a rural community, have a disability
                    > that precludes my going to ECK functions,
                    > and there is no one in the ECK community
                    > in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
                    > talking to about my misgivings. They still
                    > have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
                    > I feel there must be something wrong with
                    > me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
                    >
                    > After reading a few posts on this site,
                    > I now realize there are others like me
                    > who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
                    > if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
                    > doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
                    > especially after what headquarters did
                    > recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
                    > go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
                    > blind right now.
                    >
                    > Hope to get to know you folks better,
                    > and you get to know me too.
                    >
                    > Skypilot4mr
                    >
                  • mishmisha9
                    Hello, Ma-li! I m enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : ) Regarding your question about how Paul got away with making eckankar and the eck masters
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello, Ma-li!

                      I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

                      Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
                      making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
                      different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
                      are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
                      lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

                      As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
                      wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
                      to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
                      physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
                      devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

                      But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
                      female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
                      had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
                      Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
                      of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
                      Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
                      Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
                      And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
                      those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
                      Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
                      showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
                      Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
                      this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
                      what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
                      his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
                      on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
                      which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
                      that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
                      difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
                      publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
                      deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
                      master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
                      Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

                      BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
                      links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
                      Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
                      and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

                      I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
                      eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
                      Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

                      Mish

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Good Morning All,
                      >  
                      > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
                      on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
                      Oh well...
                      >  
                      > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
                      the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
                      in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
                      takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
                      make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
                      down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
                      >  
                      > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
                      membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
                      same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
                      the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
                      devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
                      told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
                      got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
                      inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
                      and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                      >  
                      > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
                      several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
                      sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
                      freedom.
                      >  
                      > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
                      game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
                      were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
                      and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
                      of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
                      others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
                      >  
                      > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
                      path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
                      new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
                      confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
                      down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
                      least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
                      Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
                      religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
                      all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
                      >  
                      > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
                      of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
                      >  
                      > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
                      to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
                      never be a female because of energies, or such. 
                      >  
                      > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
                      >  
                      > Namaste
                      > Ma-li
                    • Ma-li
                      You have no idea what a kick in the butt this has been to learn that something I really believed in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....that
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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                        You have no idea what a kick in the butt this has been to learn that something I really believed in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for financial gain, for power, and without a thought for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who actually bought into the "dream".
                         
                        Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable, and if I'd approve one.  B. was dying of cancer.  At the time I had no idea why she was asking me since she never wanted my opinion on anything else.  Of course, I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was such a dedicated Eckist.  I knew the two women didn't get along...B had told me many times of the nasty things the other did and said.  In fact, she's the one who told me the other had written ESC that I was inactive.  Anyway,  I thought no more about the incident or initiations, until years later when I began to wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th about someone's innitiation.  I suspected then that things weren't as they seemed.
                         
                        Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if I would recommend the initiation.  I know she didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted to refuse B her dying wish.  Doesn't matter now anyway.  This whole subject brings up a lot of bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of the back peddaling the former RESA did when I asked about things.  There was always an excuse, and always "because the Mahanta said so".  Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on the inner" that concerned me. 
                         
                        If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck friends, they would be horrified, and I would be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on the outside....way out of the loop.  It feels good to unload what has been on my mind, but there's still a little voice saying I'm going to get into big trouble for this.  Sure hope it's just paranoia.
                         
                        Thanks for the link.  I'll read it later today.
                         
                        Namaste
                        Ma-li
                         
                          


                        --- On Sat, 11/8/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                        From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:53 AM

                        Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
                        about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                        was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
                        be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
                        his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
                        another example showing he's a fake.

                        Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
                        from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                        Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
                        writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
                        get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
                        religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

                        He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
                        Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
                        writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
                        plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                        Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
                        to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
                        becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
                        be the Living Eck Master.

                        It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
                        your doubts on this forum.

                        Regards
                        Liska

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
                        <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Good Morning All,
                        >  
                        > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
                        beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
                        -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
                        >  
                        > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
                        because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
                        pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
                        initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
                        it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
                        member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
                        then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
                        remains there for over a decade.
                        >  
                        > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
                        my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
                        able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
                        I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
                        marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
                        promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
                        after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
                        getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
                        I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
                        about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
                        kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                        >  
                        > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
                        longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
                        by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
                        aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
                        freedom.
                        >  
                        > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
                        never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
                        Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
                        growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
                        and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
                        wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
                        need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
                        strange bedfellows.
                        >  
                        > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
                        an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
                        wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
                        they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
                        it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
                        gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
                        Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
                        corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
                        supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
                        Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
                        there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
                        from what's garbage.
                        >  
                        > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
                        the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
                        away with the plagerism etc.? 
                        >  
                        > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
                        the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
                        many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
                        or such. 
                        >  
                        > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
                        forever and ever?
                        >  
                        > Namaste
                        > Ma-li
                        >  
                        >  
                        >  
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...>
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        > Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Mi-li and All,
                        > Many of those active chelas joining EK
                        > in 1973, under Darwin, had become
                        > 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
                        > 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
                        > However, most of those who have the
                        > 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
                        > the 7th when they become RESAs. This
                        > is how HK maintains a reserve for the
                        > RESA position.
                        >
                        > Klemp did replace some of those, of high
                        > rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
                        > but then he slowed other initiations down
                        > due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
                        > pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
                        > Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
                        > initiations above the 5th and, especially,
                        > with any above the 7th!
                        >
                        > What's really ironic is that those chelas
                        > Darwin skipped initiations on or who
                        > were only 4ths for a few months before
                        > getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
                        > Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
                        > the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
                        > and Company all of their "fast tracked"
                        > initiations!
                        >
                        > Now, however, a 5th needs to become
                        > a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
                        > they will be eligible for the 6th, and
                        > a 6th needs to become an ESA before
                        > they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
                        > this process can vary some depending
                        > upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
                        > of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
                        > through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
                        > and RESA ass kissing!
                        >
                        > In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
                        > are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
                        > List" comes down from the ESC. They do
                        > this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
                        > why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
                        > cases it's the computer generated list based
                        > on one's membership date and last initiation
                        > date and the approval of local H.I.s that
                        > determine whether or not someone will
                        > or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
                        > the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
                        >
                        > If most ECKists knew how initiations were
                        > really done they would know that the rest
                        > of the crap about "inner communication"
                        > with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
                        >
                        > FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
                        > with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
                        > etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
                        > Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
                        > membership current too. Otherwise, one
                        > can/will get passed over for initiation.
                        >
                        > Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
                        > basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
                        > And, one has to watch one's "language."
                        > You cannot share other beliefs and question
                        > or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
                        > myth or prediction is one such thing that
                        > would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
                        > are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
                        > see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
                        > basis need to know how to play-the-game.
                        >
                        > BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
                        > to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
                        > give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
                        > year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
                        > wants to go down in history as the biggest
                        > and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
                        > Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
                        > training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
                        > anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
                        > This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > Hello Prometheus,
                        >
                        > Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
                        know how to use
                        > Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
                        shouldn't have.
                        >
                        > Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
                        the lifetime
                        > membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
                        that after all these
                        > years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
                        When I would quesstion the
                        > RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
                        down because too
                        > many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
                        I know...I was just
                        > a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
                        about it or there
                        > would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
                        forever. lol
                        >
                        > Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
                        there with the big
                        > boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
                        cracked up to be, or
                        > was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
                        5th's no longer
                        > automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
                        grandfathered in because I
                        > had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
                        give much thought to
                        > my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
                        much interaction with
                        > people in public settings.
                        >
                        > Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
                        sign a form so they can
                        > have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
                        make sure I wasn't a
                        > child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
                        was for insurance
                        > purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
                        various other friends who
                        > are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
                        had to have
                        > background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
                        to more government
                        > interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
                        had just been
                        > informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
                        gives the gov't access
                        > to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
                        ticked me off.
                        >
                        > Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
                        bow to their wishes, or to
                        > talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
                        to send back my
                        > certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
                        place, and had no idea
                        > such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
                        end of it. How much
                        > attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
                        passed between
                        > initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
                        Computers are
                        > marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
                        "on the inner". Oops.
                        >
                        > Namaste
                        > Ma-li
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote:
                        > Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
                        >
                        > I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
                        > quarters) did recently to make you feel
                        > uncomfortable and for you to have even
                        > more misgivings. What are some of the
                        > things that just don't feel right to you
                        > anymore? Please share more.
                        >
                        > It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
                        > is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
                        > just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
                        > permitted to question things like the
                        > need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
                        > or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
                        > fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
                        >
                        > Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
                        > had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
                        > were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
                        > were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
                        > and fake.
                        >
                        > The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
                        > phenomena and appeared when people were
                        > trying to make a positive impression when
                        > around other ECKists, or were so detached,
                        > aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
                        > with any empathy, as to what others were
                        > going through. Some actually believed
                        > they were having a "spiritual experience."
                        > One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
                        > feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
                        > and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
                        > However, for those who really "believed"
                        > it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
                        > or psychic experience just like with any other
                        > feel good religion. Many times it was just an
                        > "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > Skypilot4mr Wrote:
                        > I am a new member of this group,
                        > and don't know exactly how to do
                        > things here. So, I am just jumping
                        > in with an email to introduce myself.
                        >
                        > I have been a member of Eckankar
                        > since 1973, and have been debating
                        > with myself for the last few years about
                        > leaving the path. There are just too many
                        > things that don't feel right to me anymore.
                        >
                        > I live in a rural community, have a disability
                        > that precludes my going to ECK functions,
                        > and there is no one in the ECK community
                        > in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
                        > talking to about my misgivings. They still
                        > have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
                        > I feel there must be something wrong with
                        > me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
                        >
                        > After reading a few posts on this site,
                        > I now realize there are others like me
                        > who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
                        > if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
                        > doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
                        > especially after what headquarters did
                        > recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
                        > go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
                        > blind right now.
                        >
                        > Hope to get to know you folks better,
                        > and you get to know me too.
                        >
                        > Skypilot4mr
                        >


                      • Ma-li
                        Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.   I
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
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                          Hi Mish, Thanks for the welcome.  Kinda starting to feel right at home with like minded people.  Love the name of this group...ESA.  So appropriate.
                           
                          I was thinking about the same thing shortly before your post came in.  If the internet had been around back then, Paul wouldn't have gotten away with all this stuff.  On the other hand, just from limited experience in this area with local eckists, if they accidently found this group, they would not believe one word of it.  Even if they read all the files, they'd say it was just malcontents who couldn't handle being true eckists.  Even my best friend, with whom I tried to discuss my feelings about all this, thinks I'm way off center.  She said, and I quote, "I'll bet this is just a test before you get your 6th".  BS!!!  If that were true, why would I have been having doubts for 5 years or more!
                           
                          Interesting about Joan.  Are you saying what I think you are saying?  It will be interesting to read his new book....when and if he ever writes one that isn't just chela experiences.
                           
                          Oh, the thread you all were on before .......why would HK need security people surrounding him, and why would he have any need for a flak vest????  He's supposed to be our protector against all sorts of bad stuff.  Can't he even protect himself?  I know, this is part of his disorder.  Never though he might have mental problems even tho' he did get naked at the airport way back when.  Oh lord, this is all too much for me to digest right now.
                           
                          I certainly hope having my eyes opened is spiritual growth 'cause if it ain't, then I'm in deep doodoo.
                           
                          Namaste
                          Ma-li
                           
                           

                          --- On Sat, 11/8/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                          From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 9:57 AM

                          Hello, Ma-li!

                          I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

                          Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
                          making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
                          different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
                          are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
                          lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

                          As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
                          wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
                          to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
                          physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
                          devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

                          But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
                          female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
                          had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
                          Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
                          of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
                          Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
                          Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
                          And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
                          those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
                          Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
                          showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
                          Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
                          this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
                          what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
                          his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
                          on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
                          which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
                          that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
                          difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
                          publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
                          deception aimed at his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
                          master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
                          Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

                          BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
                          links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
                          Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
                          and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

                          I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
                          eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
                          Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

                          Mish

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Good Morning All,
                          >  
                          > Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning, missed the boat
                          on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th. 
                          Oh well...
                          >  
                          > If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we don't have
                          the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who is now
                          in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend
                          takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member, that it would
                          make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the friend steps
                          down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
                          >  
                          > In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
                          membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't in the
                          same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they were in
                          the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to
                          devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed after ESC was
                          told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their initiations, but I never
                          got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many
                          inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass kisser,
                          and don't plan to start at this point. lol
                          >  
                          > I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends with
                          several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all
                          sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
                          freedom.
                          >  
                          > In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew there was a
                          game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same page, and
                          were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
                          and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting whatever place
                          of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing grief for
                          others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
                          >  
                          > The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an individual
                          path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many who are
                          new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as
                          confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have gone
                          down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to say the
                          least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our trust in. 
                          Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any other
                          religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then, there is truth in
                          all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
                          >  
                          > Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
                          of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism etc.? 
                          >  
                          > Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women coming
                          to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there could
                          never be a female because of energies, or such. 
                          >  
                          > How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and ever?
                          >  
                          > Namaste
                          > Ma-li



                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Ma-li and All, First, I d like to point out that Kata-Daki (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell. Paul created this Female ECK Master in memory of his
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 8, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Ma-li and All,
                            First, I'd like to point out that Kata-Daki
                            (K.D.) is Kay-Dee (Katherine) Twitchell.
                            Paul created this Female ECK Master in
                            memory of his sister and nine years after
                            her death.

                            Anyway, I'd like to insert my comments
                            (below) to what has been shared.

                            Ma-li wrote:

                            "Looks like the few Eckists thee were
                            in this area back in the beginning,
                            missed the boat on the 7th initiations
                            by the late 80s -early 90s. The highest
                            there was then was a 4th. Oh well..."

                            ME: Some remote areas didn't have many
                            (any) H.I.s because most chelas need to
                            gain the attention of the powers that be
                            (the RESA).

                            "If I am understanding you, people like
                            me will never get further because we
                            don't have the resources, have health
                            issues, or may have pissed off someone
                            higher up who is now in a position of
                            power re: initiations etc. Gee, do you
                            think when the RESA's best friend takes
                            it upon herself to write ESC that another
                            chela isn't an active member, that it would
                            make a difference? Especially, if that person
                            then becomes RESA after the friend steps
                            down a year later, and remains there for
                            over a decade."

                            ME: Well, for promotion one needs to
                            become an Active Vahana (explorer) by
                            doing and participating in Intros or Book
                            Discussions or even teaching a Satsang
                            Class. Of course, one needs to be "trained"
                            and "have a solid foundation in the EK
                            teachings." Thus, just having an "Active"
                            (current & paid) ECK membership is not
                            enough. Eckankar is an "Outer" religion
                            just like all others!

                            "In the above instance, I was an active
                            member in as much that I paid my
                            yearly membership, wrote reports,
                            and went to functions when I was able.
                            I just wasn't in the same class as the
                            above mentioned people. I was a small
                            business owner, they were in the medical
                            profession by marriage. I didn't have the
                            money or the time they had to devote
                            to promoting Eckanakar. Maybe I'm all
                            wet about this, but I noticed after ESC
                            was told by this 4th that I was inactive,
                            other chela's kept getting their initiations,
                            but I never got another one. At some
                            point I didn't really care anymore, and
                            there were too many inconsistencies
                            about many things in the ECK community.
                            I have never been an ass kisser, and don't
                            plan to start at this point. lol"

                            ME: It seems that there are a lot of chiropractors,
                            acupuncturists, and massage therapists in
                            ECKankar. The former doesn't have the same
                            prestige (and vanity) associated with it than
                            the other two have. But, yes, the friends of
                            the RESA will be promoted faster than others
                            who are more spiritually advanced.

                            "I do know that when word gets out that
                            I'v left the path, I will no longer be friends
                            with several of the people...not by my choice,
                            but by theirs. Then the gossip will fly, and
                            all sorts of things that aren't true will be
                            spread about the area. Small price to pay
                            for freedom."

                            ME: It is true that many ECKists won't want
                            to associate with you. Some will be fearful
                            to hear the Truth, and some will see it as
                            being Negative. They won't want to be "infected,"
                            or have others (higher up) think they are in
                            agreement with some of your newly found
                            perspectives and insights. They don't want
                            to be Black Listed, too, on initiations.

                            "In short, guess I didn't play the game
                            very well. Of course, I never knew there
                            was a game when it came to one's spiritual
                            beliefs. Thought we were all on the same
                            page, and were there for spiritual growth.
                            Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the
                            business world, and the little, honest,
                            hardworking guy gets stepped on by
                            those wanting whatever place of power
                            was available. I don't understand the
                            need for power, and for causing grief
                            for others. Power makes for strange
                            bedfellows."

                            ME: No, you didn't play-the-game well
                            at all! Catch-22! Klemp mentions in his
                            accounts from being locked-up, in that
                            Mental Institution, that he learned to
                            "play-the-game" (PTG) with the psychologist
                            in order to be released early. HK used this
                            same PTG technique when he worked under
                            DG at the ESC by maintaining a wimpy facade
                            to disarm Gross. Darwin needed someone
                            who wanted to "write" and wimpy HK was
                            the obvious choice. Thus, DG promoted
                            Klemp with even more of Higher Initiations
                            and was unaware of Klemp's own power
                            game!


                            "The thing that appealed to me in the
                            beginning was that Eckankar was an
                            individual path. In a way that's BS, and
                            I see that now. Makes me wonder about
                            the many who are new to the path. When,
                            if ever, will they reach the point I've reached,
                            and will they be as confused about it as
                            I've been? I didn't have a clue about all
                            the things that have gone down until
                            I read some of the links on your group
                            home page. Blew my mind, to say the
                            least. So much deception, outright lies,
                            and corruption by those we put our trust
                            in. Eckankar, the path that was supposed
                            to be different, is no different that any other
                            religion. Granted, there is truth to be learned
                            from studying it, but then, there is truth in
                            all religions. We just have to discern what's
                            truth from what's garbage."

                            ME: ECKankar does start out as something
                            quite different from the end results! Way
                            back it did seem to be more "spiritual" and
                            an "individual path." Many of Twitchell's
                            plagiarized concepts were very intriguing
                            until one discovers that many of these were
                            taken from other fraudulent religions based
                            upon lies and myth and "tweaked" for the
                            Western New Age mindset.

                            "Did Paul just make up the number he used
                            as LEM to lend creadence to the ancientness
                            of his religion? If he made it all up, how did
                            he get away with the plagerism etc.?"

                            ME: As for the number 971 that's a puzzle,
                            except, Twitchell did die in the month of
                            September (9) and in the year 1971 (9/71)!
                            Ironic, that this is probably the only prophecy
                            that Twitchell got right, and PT didn't even
                            know what it really pertained to! Karma? LOL!

                            "Was the "new" female ECK Master also
                            a fabrication by HK to pacify the women
                            coming to the path? Seems I can remember
                            someone telling me many years ago that
                            there could never be a female because
                            of energies, or such."

                            ME: Well, according to EK Dogma there
                            can't be a Female LEM/Mahanta or Mahanta
                            in Training. However, there can be Female
                            12th Initiates who are ECK Masters and
                            are Not LEM/Mahantas. Kata Daki, otherwise,
                            wouldn't be called an ECK Master and listed
                            as a member of the Vairagi Order. Unless,
                            of course, she received her 12th on the
                            "Inner." However, even the LEM/Mahanta
                            has the "outer confirmation" of the 12th
                            initiation.

                            "How do you clip these posts in Yahoo
                            so that they don't go on forever and ever?"

                            ME: I first highlight the text I want to "reply to"
                            (before replying) then go to "edit" and "copy"
                            it. I then "reply" and do a "delete" of the whole
                            text before doing a "paste" of what I "copied."
                            You should also do a "preview" before posting.
                            You might want to go back and do more "editing"
                            before "previewing" it again and then "sending"
                            the final version. Just make sure that everyone
                            knows who said what. -Prometheus
                            p.s. I had to edit and repost this so those getting
                            the emails will have two similar ones.

                            Namaste
                            Ma-li

                            Prometheus wrote:

                            Hello Mi-li and All,
                            Many of those active chelas joining EK
                            in 1973, under Darwin, had become
                            7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
                            1991. Many others remained 6ths.
                            However, most of those who have the
                            6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
                            the 7th when they become RESAs. This
                            is how HK maintains a reserve for the
                            RESA position.

                            Klemp did replace some of those, of high
                            rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
                            but then he slowed other initiations down
                            due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
                            pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
                            Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
                            initiations above the 5th and, especially,
                            with any above the 7th!

                            What's really ironic is that those chelas
                            Darwin skipped initiations on or who
                            were only 4ths for a few months before
                            getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
                            Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
                            the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
                            and Company all of their "fast tracked"
                            initiations!

                            Now, however, a 5th needs to become
                            a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
                            they will be eligible for the 6th, and
                            a 6th needs to become an ESA before
                            they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
                            this process can vary some depending
                            upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
                            of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
                            through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
                            and RESA ass kissing!

                            In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
                            are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
                            List" comes down from the ESC. They do
                            this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
                            why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
                            cases it's the computer generated list based
                            on one's membership date and last initiation
                            date and the approval of local H.I.s that
                            determine whether or not someone will
                            or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
                            the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

                            If most ECKists knew how initiations were
                            really done they would know that the rest
                            of the crap about "inner communication"
                            with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

                            FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
                            with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
                            etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
                            Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
                            membership current too. Otherwise, one
                            can/will get passed over for initiation.

                            Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
                            basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
                            And, one has to watch one's "language."
                            You cannot share other beliefs and question
                            or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
                            myth or prediction is one such thing that
                            would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
                            are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
                            see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
                            basis need to know how to play-the-game.

                            BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
                            to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
                            give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
                            year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
                            wants to go down in history as the biggest
                            and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
                            Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
                            training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
                            anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
                            This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

                            Prometheus
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Ma-li and All, I was being asked to approve or disapprove potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA. I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello Ma-li and All,
                              I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                              potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                              I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                              Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                              universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                              and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                              basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                              hierarchy! Catch-22!

                              When one wants and needs to believe there is
                              always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                              It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                              to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                              oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                              their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                              them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                              see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                              a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                              own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                              Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                              Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                              created EK from what he read and learned on a
                              personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                              Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                              and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                              and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                              Catch-22 again!

                              And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                              protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                              Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                              talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                              ECK Temple and the ESC?

                              Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                              to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                              more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                              been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                              "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                              so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                              I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                              towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                              Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                              without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                              Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                              and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                              (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                              Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                              have the most to lose.

                              But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                              Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                              and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                              their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                              their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                              Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                              their Silence.

                              And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                              They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                              Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                              and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                              and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                              Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                              Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                              only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                              generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                              or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                              self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                              who couldn't function in the real world.


                              Prometheus

                              Ma-li wrote:

                              You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                              has been to learn that something I really believed
                              in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                              that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                              financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                              for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                              actually bought into the "dream".

                              Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                              I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                              and if I'd approve one.

                              B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                              idea why she was asking me since she never
                              wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                              I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                              such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                              didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                              the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                              she's the one who told me the other had written
                              ESC that I was inactive.

                              Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                              or initiations, until years later when I began to
                              wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                              knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                              about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                              things weren't as they seemed.

                              Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                              I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                              didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                              to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                              anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                              bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                              the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                              I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                              and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                              Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                              the inner" that concerned me.

                              If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                              friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                              be ostracized.....not that I'm not already on
                              the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                              to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                              still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                              big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                              Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                              Namaste
                              Ma-li

                              drubezarne wrote:

                              Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                              would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                              for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                              was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                              omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                              kind of thing. He would know everything and
                              make his determination based on a person's
                              spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                              showing he's a fake.

                              Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                              didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                              and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                              Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                              a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                              from his mentor that writing books was not
                              going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                              he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                              put himself at the head of it.

                              He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                              It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                              to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                              Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                              You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                              Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                              being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                              followers. He never explained how a female
                              becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                              says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                              It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                              by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                              Regards
                              Liska
                            • Leanne Thompson
                              Hi prometheus_973. I just had an EVIL thought. Can one call in as a pretend friend of an HI or RESA and recommend yourself ? Or any way of fooling them.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi prometheus_973. I just had an "EVIL" thought. Can one call in as a "pretend" friend of an HI or RESA and recommend "yourself"? Or any way of fooling them.
                                 
                                Leanne

                                --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 11:54 AM

                                Hello Ma-li and All,
                                I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                                potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                                I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                                Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                                universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                                and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                                basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                                hierarchy! Catch-22!

                                When one wants and needs to believe there is
                                always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                                It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                                to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                                oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                                their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                                them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                                see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                                a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                                own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                                Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                                Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                                created EK from what he read and learned on a
                                personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                                Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                                and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                                and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                                Catch-22 again!

                                And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                                protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                                Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                                talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                                ECK Temple and the ESC?

                                Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                                to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                                more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                                been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                                "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                                so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                                I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                                towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                                Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                                without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                                Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                                and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                                (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                                Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                                have the most to lose.

                                But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                                Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                                and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                                their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                                their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                                Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                                their Silence.

                                And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                                They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                                Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                                and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                                and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                                Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                                Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                                only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                                generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                                or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                                self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                                who couldn't function in the real world.


                                Prometheus

                                Ma-li wrote:

                                You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                                has been to learn that something I really believed
                                in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                                that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                                financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                                for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                                actually bought into the "dream".

                                Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                                I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                                and if I'd approve one.

                                B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                                idea why she was asking me since she never
                                wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                                I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                                such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                                didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                                the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                                she's the one who told me the other had written
                                ESC that I was inactive.

                                Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                                or initiations, until years later when I began to
                                wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                                knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                                about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                                things weren't as they seemed.

                                Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                                I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                                didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                                to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                                anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                                bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                                the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                                I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                                and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                                Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                                the inner" that concerned me.

                                If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                                friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                                be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                                the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                                to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                                still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                                big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                                Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                                Namaste
                                Ma-li

                                drubezarne wrote:

                                Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                                would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                                for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                                was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                                omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                                kind of thing. He would know everything and
                                make his determination based on a person's
                                spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                                showing he's a fake.

                                Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                                didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                                and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                                Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                                a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                                from his mentor that writing books was not
                                going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                                he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                                put himself at the head of it.

                                He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                                It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                                to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                                Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                                You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                                Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                                being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                                followers. He never explained how a female
                                becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                                says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                                It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                                by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                                Regards
                                Liska


                              • prometheus_973
                                Hi Leanne and All, No, the RESA or another H.I. calls you to check out someone for initiation. You don t call them, unless, you have a complaint to file. Now
                                Message 15 of 16 , Nov 9, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Leanne and All,
                                  No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                                  you to check out someone for initiation.
                                  You don't call them, unless, you have
                                  a complaint to file. Now this could
                                  screw someone for initiation! And
                                  often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                                  out the complaint fully, or get the
                                  other side of the story. It all depends.

                                  Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                                  in place they will sometimes stick together
                                  and accept gossip when a sister has been
                                  "wronged," or "offended."

                                  Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                                  by another EK female or by an EK male.
                                  There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                                  there and sometimes guys will hit on
                                  newbies because their own marriage
                                  was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                                  initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                                  Some EK women don't like being dumped
                                  or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                                  tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                                  seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                                  the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                                  than regular non-ECKists... right?

                                  Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                                  if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                                  call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                                  just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                                  meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                                  seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                                  filing the complaint has the "credentials."

                                  Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                                  and one person tried to drag me into the
                                  middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                                  an eye on things better, but still had to do
                                  some damage control once. There were some
                                  chelas that were really good manipulators
                                  and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                                  I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                                  one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                                  It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                                  when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                                  many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                                  and one is always having to "act" a part and
                                  be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                                  and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                                  Prometheus



                                  Hi prometheus,
                                  I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                                  Can one call in as a "pretend"
                                  friend of an HI or RESA and
                                  recommend "yourself"?
                                  Or any way of fooling them.

                                  Leanne

                                  prometheus wrote:

                                  Hello Ma-li and All,
                                  I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                                  potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                                  I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                                  Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                                  universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                                  and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                                  basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                                  hierarchy! Catch-22!

                                  When one wants and needs to believe there is
                                  always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                                  It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                                  to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                                  oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                                  their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                                  them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                                  see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                                  a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                                  own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                                  Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                                  Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                                  created EK from what he read and learned on a
                                  personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                                  Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                                  and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                                  and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                                  Catch-22 again!

                                  And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                                  protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                                  Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                                  talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                                  ECK Temple and the ESC?

                                  Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                                  to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                                  more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                                  been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                                  "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                                  so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                                  I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                                  towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                                  Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                                  without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                                  Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                                  and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                                  (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                                  Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                                  have the most to lose.

                                  But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                                  Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                                  and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                                  their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                                  their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                                  Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                                  their Silence.

                                  And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                                  They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                                  Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                                  and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                                  and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                                  Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                                  Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                                  only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                                  generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                                  or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                                  self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                                  who couldn't function in the real world.


                                  Prometheus

                                  Ma-li wrote:

                                  You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                                  has been to learn that something I really believed
                                  in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                                  that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                                  financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                                  for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                                  actually bought into the "dream".

                                  Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                                  I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                                  and if I'd approve one.

                                  B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                                  idea why she was asking me since she never
                                  wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                                  I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                                  such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                                  didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                                  the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                                  she's the one who told me the other had written
                                  ESC that I was inactive.

                                  Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                                  or initiations, until years later when I began to
                                  wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                                  knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                                  about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                                  things weren't as they seemed.

                                  Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                                  I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                                  didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                                  to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                                  anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                                  bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                                  the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                                  I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                                  and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                                  Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                                  the inner" that concerned me.

                                  If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                                  friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                                  be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                                  the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                                  to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                                  still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                                  big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                                  Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                                  Namaste
                                  Ma-li

                                  drubezarne wrote:

                                  Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                                  would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                                  for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                                  was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                                  omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                                  kind of thing. He would know everything and
                                  make his determination based on a person's
                                  spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                                  showing he's a fake.

                                  Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                                  didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                                  and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                                  Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                                  a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                                  from his mentor that writing books was not
                                  going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                                  he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                                  put himself at the head of it.

                                  He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                                  It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                                  to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                                  Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                                  You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                                  Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                                  being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                                  followers. He never explained how a female
                                  becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                                  says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                                  It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                                  by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                                  Regards
                                  Liska
                                • Leanne Thompson
                                  Even calling headquarters wont work? Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.   Leanne ... From: prometheus_973
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Nov 10, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Even calling headquarters wont work?
                                    Maybe as a joke I would tell them Darwin is here to see klemp.
                                     
                                    Leanne

                                    --- On Sun, 11/9/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 9:01 PM

                                    Hi Leanne and All,
                                    No, the RESA or another H.I. calls
                                    you to check out someone for initiation.
                                    You don't call them, unless, you have
                                    a complaint to file. Now this could
                                    screw someone for initiation! And
                                    often the H.I. or RESA will Not check
                                    out the complaint fully, or get the
                                    other side of the story. It all depends.

                                    Now, if there is a strong EK sisterhood
                                    in place they will sometimes stick together
                                    and accept gossip when a sister has been
                                    "wronged," or "offended."

                                    Sometimes they have been "wronged"
                                    by another EK female or by an EK male.
                                    There are a lot of divorced ECKists out
                                    there and sometimes guys will hit on
                                    newbies because their own marriage
                                    was, basically, over with. Or, lower
                                    initiate women will hit on H.I. males.

                                    Some EK women don't like being dumped
                                    or rejected and can be very vindictive and
                                    tend to get even via the hierarchy. This might
                                    seem strange to hear because ECKists have
                                    the Mahanta and a higher consciousness
                                    than regular non-ECKists. .. right?

                                    Complaints can affect one's next initiation
                                    if the RESA or another higher up gets a phone
                                    call. Of course some of these ECKists have
                                    just had their egos bruised, or are off their
                                    meds (really!), but for some reason the RESAs
                                    seldom look at these possibilities if the person
                                    filing the complaint has the "credentials. "

                                    Anyway, I've heard some really crazy stories
                                    and one person tried to drag me into the
                                    middle of a dispute once. After that I kept
                                    an eye on things better, but still had to do
                                    some damage control once. There were some
                                    chelas that were really good manipulators
                                    and were always the victim. To keep the peace
                                    I had to walk on egg shells around some and
                                    one H.I., I discovered, was Bi-Polar!

                                    It was really nice leaving this crap behind
                                    when I left ECKankar. There are just too
                                    many screwy people (ECKists) to deal with,
                                    and one is always having to "act" a part and
                                    be on guard. Those desires for initiation can
                                    and will make people really crazy (crazier).


                                    Prometheus


                                    Hi prometheus,
                                    I just had an "EVIL" thought.
                                    Can one call in as a "pretend"
                                    friend of an HI or RESA and
                                    recommend "yourself"?
                                    Or any way of fooling them.

                                    Leanne

                                    prometheus wrote:

                                    Hello Ma-li and All,
                                    I was being asked to approve or disapprove
                                    potential initiations in 1990 by my RESA.
                                    I rationalized this by thinking that Klemp (the
                                    Mahanta) had so much to do with running the
                                    universes that he needed governors (RESAs)
                                    and others within the hierarchy to do the more
                                    basic duties. After all, that's why it was a
                                    hierarchy! Catch-22!

                                    When one wants and needs to believe there is
                                    always a way for the mind to rationalize.
                                    It's very difficult (and inconvenient) to wake-up
                                    to the Truth because that would mean detaching
                                    oneself (letting go) from: their religious beliefs;
                                    their society of friends; the dogma that freed
                                    them from their original fears. Many ECKists can't
                                    see that any religion (including ECKankar) is merely
                                    a stop-gap until they have learned to walk their
                                    own Walk (path) as their own Master and Cliff-Hanger.
                                    Only one's inflated Ego and a need for Power and
                                    Money would create and maintain a religion. Twit
                                    created EK from what he read and learned on a
                                    personal and subjective level. To silence the critics
                                    Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp took the "as if" approach
                                    and became pseudo Masters with self-created titles
                                    and powers that made them beyond reproach.
                                    Catch-22 again!

                                    And, where is the empathy? Where is the Mahanta's
                                    protection from (karma) cancer? Why are there Metal
                                    Detectors and Searches at ECK Seminars for only Klemp's
                                    talk? Why are there Searches for Seminar Tours of the
                                    ECK Temple and the ESC?

                                    Basically, the status quo of H.I. ECKists don't want
                                    to know the Truth, although, many would like to see
                                    more "Change," especially, in Leadership. It must have
                                    been very disappointing for them NOT to see any
                                    "changes" coming in 2008-2009 when Klemp spoke
                                    so much about "change" at the October 2007 EWWS!
                                    I don't see why more H.I.s haven't just thrown in the
                                    towel and said "F___ it all!" It's disgusting to see that
                                    Klemp is maintaing a narcissistic "death grip" on power
                                    without any regard to the ECKankar membership.

                                    Maybe this is a "TEST" for them? The higher they are
                                    and the longer they've served makes it even more difficult
                                    (a greater challenge) for these Chelas to "Let Go" of
                                    Religion! Thus, those who have the most to gain, also,
                                    have the most to lose.

                                    But, what is it ECK H.I.s would LOSE by leaving their
                                    Church? They would lose: their Initiation Number
                                    and EK Membership Card; most of their ECK "friends;"
                                    their Positions and Duties within the RESA Hierarchy;
                                    their Co-dependency, and Servitude mindset; their
                                    Passiveness (disguised as detachment); their Fears;
                                    their Silence.

                                    And, what would H.I.s they GAIN by leaving EK?
                                    They gain and realize: Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                                    Mastery, now, in this lifetime; Self-Reliance; Clarity
                                    and a New Perspective with regained, rejuvenated,
                                    and expanded Insights; regained Love and Empathy;
                                    Less Stress, more Peace of Mind; and Contentment.

                                    Yes, the belief in ANY religion is a KAL Test and
                                    only the strong can break the ties that have bound
                                    generations. Eventually, one has to graduate from
                                    or quit school and start living life. Klemp is just a
                                    self-proclaimed expert, intellectual, and teacher
                                    who couldn't function in the real world.

                                    Prometheus

                                    Ma-li wrote:

                                    You have no idea what a kick in the butt this
                                    has been to learn that something I really believed
                                    in for so long, is pure fiction for the most part....
                                    that fraud has been perpetrated on so many for
                                    financial gain, for power, and without a thought
                                    for the harm done to the hundres/thousands who
                                    actually bought into the "dream".

                                    Several years ago I was asked by the RESA if
                                    I thought a 6th initiation for B. was acceptable,
                                    and if I'd approve one.

                                    B. was dying of cancer. At the time I had no
                                    idea why she was asking me since she never
                                    wanted my opinion on anything else. Of course,
                                    I said yes, that B really deserved it since she was
                                    such a dedicated Eckist. I knew the two women
                                    didn't get along...B had told me many times of
                                    the nasty things the other did and said. In fact,
                                    she's the one who told me the other had written
                                    ESC that I was inactive.

                                    Anyway, I thought no more about the incident
                                    or initiations, until years later when I began to
                                    wonder why "the inner Master who sees all, and
                                    knows all" would need to ask the RESA and a 5th
                                    about someone's initiation. I suspected then that
                                    things weren't as they seemed.

                                    Today I wonder why she chose to ask me if
                                    I would recommend the initiation. I know she
                                    didn't like B or me, and maybe she just wanted
                                    to refuse B her dying wish. Doesn't matter now
                                    anyway. This whole subject brings up a lot of
                                    bitter feelings and memories, and reminders of
                                    the back peddaling the former RESA did when
                                    I asked about things. There was always an excuse,
                                    and always "because the Mahanta said so".
                                    Just can't believe they got so much stuff "on
                                    the inner" that concerned me.

                                    If I dared to say any of this to any of the eck
                                    friends, they would be horrified, and I would
                                    be ostracized.. ...not that I'm not already on
                                    the outside....way out of the loop. It feels good
                                    to unload what has been on my mind, but there's
                                    still a little voice saying I'm going to get into
                                    big trouble for this. Sure hope it's just paranoia.

                                    Thanks for the link. I'll read it later today.

                                    Namaste
                                    Ma-li

                                    drubezarne wrote:

                                    Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS
                                    would ask my opinion about other eckists up
                                    for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
                                    was what he claimed to be - omniscient and
                                    omnipotent, there wouldn't be a need for this
                                    kind of thing. He would know everything and
                                    make his determination based on a person's
                                    spiritual unfoldment. It's another example
                                    showing he's a fake.

                                    Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he
                                    didn't make up, he stole from other writers
                                    and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
                                    Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was
                                    a third-rate science fiction writer. He learned
                                    from his mentor that writing books was not
                                    going to get him rich and give him the recognition
                                    he craved. So, he made up a religion/cult and
                                    put himself at the head of it.

                                    He didn't really get away with the plagiarism.
                                    It's dogging Eckankar today. You've seen references
                                    to it all over the web. Try writing Peter Skelsky,
                                    Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the plagiarism.
                                    You're never going to hear back from any of them.

                                    Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical
                                    being promoted by Klemp to appease his female
                                    followers. He never explained how a female
                                    becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat
                                    says a female can never be the Living Eck Master.

                                    It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison
                                    by expressing your doubts on this forum.

                                    Regards
                                    Liska


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