Re: ECKists Have Lowered Standards With Klemp
- Prometheus, let's see how many are willing to (in Star Trek lingo)
"de-cloak". If you prefer to e-mail, that's fine too. So, are there
any H.I.'s or former H.I.'s who are unhappy with Eckankar and Harold
What do you think about the way H.I.'s justify Harold Klemp's shallow
talks? Here are the previously posted reasons again.
The stories don't mean anything, because they are just a way for
Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he can work with them on the
We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols. Then we have to
interpret them according to our own sensibilities.
Harold has to work with different states of consciousness. So, he has
to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely frugal with what he
reveals, and very slowly open up people to new insights.
Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization and this
group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic, and
hierarchical system of Eeckankar. It's not Harold's fault.
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> Hello Liska and All,
> I agree that Klemp doesn't have
> to make much of an effort. HK uses
> many of the same brain washing and
> fear techniques while using myth,
> imagination, and unfulfillable promises
> as the rest of the religions do.
> As for there being not many people
> (including ECKists) reading this site
> that's not exactly so. There are people
> (including ECKists) that privately contact
> members of this forum, and there are
> other indications that staffers at the
> ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
> from other EK sites. And, we've had some
> indication that Joan and Harry peek in
> every now and then. You'd be surprised.
> After all, there's really no other site like
> this one because our main focus is on
> current happenings in ECKankar and
> with Klemp rather than Twitchell.
> Also, there was that person doing the
> report on the difference between Christianity
> and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
> leaders we're able to give insights that others
> find interesting and can relate to. We can
> connect the dots for them.
> And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
> to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
> as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
> certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
> that next initiation or have as high of a position
> within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
> learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
> climb that ladder.
> Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
> site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
> that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
> share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
> Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
> or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
> by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
> of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
> this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
> Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
> had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
> ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!
> Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
> and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
> been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
> (hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!
> drubezarne wrote:
> Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
> Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
> retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
> for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
> stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
> assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
> already retired.
> Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
> membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
> Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
> much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
> leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
> most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
> advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
> never underestimate the power of the ego.
> We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
> leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
> seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.
> prometheus wrote:
> > Hello Liska and All,
> > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
> > people up quickly while they're off their
> > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
> > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
> > might have more members, but the main
> > focus is upon new membership numbers
> > versus keeping people. The initiation game
> > with their religious/psychic promises are
> > what really attracts people and maintains
> > the membership numbers.
> > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
> > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
> > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
> > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
> > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
> > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
> > while appearing to maintain his connection with
> > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
> > DM's making some money writing his books and
> > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
> > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
> > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
> > that happens.
> > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
> > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
> > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
> > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
> > that older plagiarized material would be a better
> > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
> > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
> > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
> > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
> > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
> > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
> > Should money and a personal bank account be
> > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
> > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
> > with the lilies in the field.
> > Prometheus
... even the lifetime memberships have to be renewed every year. What happens if that ECKankar membership isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
About the lifetime memberships, is that true? No renewal, no membership?
I'm wondering if the same applies as with other memberships. Where one can go inactive (have a "rest period") for up to five years but, without renewal, they eventually become non-members.
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
> Hello All,
> Back in 1981 I was one of many who
> welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
> actually, it was nice to think we would,
> now, have two ECK Masters!
> Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
> at first, because he looked like a wimp and
> had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
> However, sometime around 1990 things,
> for me, started to change. I noticed more
> and more redundancy, and those simple
> minded one dimensional stories started
> to bring back that initial embarrassment
> I experienced back in 1981. Except now
> the embarrassment was with Klemp's
> words and level of communication.
> True, there were those building projects
> and all of those books he was writing and
> all of those leadership trainings and intros
> and Regional seminars we had to plan and
> those local EK centers we had to try to keep
> open while planning the monthly EWS and
> Satsang classes and book discussions and
> roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
> But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
> all chelas really have are two things- their
> initiations and their imaginations.
> Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
> begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
> many are caught up in playing a role for both
> themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
> and needs power and a social environment.
> ECKankar has become a very comfortable
> religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
> 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
> accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
> the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
> Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
> and final stage for that initiation on the outer
> as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
> ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
> of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
> ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
> blind and closed minded in order to protect
> themselves from the truth. They need to do
> this in order to have religion work for them.
> Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
> and expectations. They've become complacent,
> but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
> what they originally bought into, years ago, is
> still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
> chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
> for years and years of training they will see
> that they really have nothing except a number
> on a membership card. And, that's a membership
> that has to be renewed every year... even the
> lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
> year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
> isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
> will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
> Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
> Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
> does he? He never takes responsibility for
> anything bad, but seems to like credit for
> the good. Where have we seen this before?
> Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
> It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
> Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
> other lower plane teaching.
> HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
> isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
> ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
> But, where is that protection from disease?
> With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
> Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
> on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
> fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
> When HK is supposed to be the "highest
> consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
> lowered their standards?
> I think that the lowering of standards was
> a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
> has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
> years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
> Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
> and has created a different kind of ECKankar
> based around himself, his old Christian religion
> and upon his opinions.
> Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
> What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
> Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
> can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
> etznab wrote:
> Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
> of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
> outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
> Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
> Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
> where the quote
> "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
> of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
> simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
> truths he was trying to share..."
> appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
> Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
> seven paragraphs by Doug.
> Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
> Look at David's question which preceded all that.
> David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
> that Paul was misleading his reading audience
> because he used the words of other writers for
> some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
> was my impression of it.
> I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
> "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
> David asked there? [My particular question was
> more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
> Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
> does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
> words from books by other authors were used to
> "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
> seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
> Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
> really make history and come out on top if only
> it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
> actual truth. It would be a first among religions
> and a shining example to the rest of the world
> if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
> Harold appeared to move in that direction years
> ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
> after which he said (transcript version):
> ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
> ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
> in the Mahantaâ"but not at the expense of making
> a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
> ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
> soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
> fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
> We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
> ment. ...."
> [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
> Klemp - see link]
> It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
> have questions are coming from. And I know what it
> is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
> more sensitive questions about religious history my-
> self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
> everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
> that others don't want to "go there".
> So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
> path is to become more of an individual and not be
> like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
> and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
> of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
> an individual having a mind and conscience of your
> It's not just a matter of What would happen to
> Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
> knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
> place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
> followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
> How long do you think religion and spiritual
> paths have been subject to "organization" and
> founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
> legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
> thousands of years, and still the actual truths
> continue to evade millions of people because
> the authorities are basing their information on
> the information of others, based on others &
> others ... and others ... and others.
> If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
> time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
> labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
> people today who claim to know the truth be-
> cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
> is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
> and heads of religions officiate church dogma
> for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
> it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
> clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
> ask the sensitive questions and see where it
> gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
> truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
> "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
> vehicle". IMHO.