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Re: ECKists Have Lowered Standards With Klemp

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  • drubezarne
    Prometheus, from what I gather after reading some posts by H.I s, Klemp s talk was the usual ton of stories sent in by eckists. A number of H.I. s complained
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2008
      Prometheus, from what I gather after reading some posts by H.I's,
      Klemp's talk was the usual ton of stories sent in by eckists. A number
      of H.I.'s complained of the high cost of the internet broadcast in
      video or audio format. Others said the seminar costs had gone up too.

      The interesting part was how they searched to find justification for
      the high costs and the tons of stories. Their loyalty to Klemp
      remained resolute.

      We're basically looking at a religion in which most of the members
      want to be spoon fed whatever Klemp feels like dishing out.

      I predicted that Klemp would not let anybody take any leadership
      position (including his wife) that would threaten his own. I'm now
      going to dust off my crystal ball and make another prediction.

      Klemp will remain as the head of Eckankar until he dies. As he gets
      older, eckists will become even more attached to him. He will appear
      as the lovable wise old sage. We've seen this happen with other guru
      oriented paths such as Sant Mat.

      On the other hand, the Eckankar population is pretty old now with
      hardly any young people interested in joining. Also, the children of
      the old folks don't want to follow a dogmatic way out religion like
      Eckankar. They can see all the negative stuff about it on the Internet.

      Eckankar realizes that young people aren't joining so there's a push
      to promote it in 3rd world countries where people are more ignorant
      and have less access to the Internet. The trouble with that is in 3rd
      world countries people don't have the kind of money that Eckankar needs.

      So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will probably die out with Klemp's
      passing.

      Regards
      Liska

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
      > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
      > actually, it was nice to think we would,
      > now, have two ECK Masters!
      >
      > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
      > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
      > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
      >
      > However, sometime around 1990 things,
      > for me, started to change. I noticed more
      > and more redundancy, and those simple
      > minded one dimensional stories started
      > to bring back that initial embarrassment
      > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
      > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
      > words and level of communication.
      >
      > True, there were those building projects
      > and all of those books he was writing and
      > all of those leadership trainings and intros
      > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
      > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
      > open while planning the monthly EWS and
      > Satsang classes and book discussions and
      > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
      > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
      > all chelas really have are two things- their
      > initiations and their imaginations.
      >
      > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
      > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
      > many are caught up in playing a role for both
      > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
      > and needs power and a social environment.
      > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
      > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
      >
      > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
      > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
      > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
      > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
      > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
      > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
      > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
      > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
      > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
      > blind and closed minded in order to protect
      > themselves from the truth. They need to do
      > this in order to have religion work for them.
      >
      > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
      > and expectations. They've become complacent,
      > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
      > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
      > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
      > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
      > for years and years of training they will see
      > that they really have nothing except a number
      > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
      > that has to be renewed every year... even the
      > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
      > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
      > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
      > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
      > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
      >
      > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
      > does he? He never takes responsibility for
      > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
      > the good. Where have we seen this before?
      > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
      > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
      > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
      > other lower plane teaching.
      >
      > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
      > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
      > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
      > But, where is that protection from disease?
      > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
      > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
      > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
      > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
      > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
      > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
      > lowered their standards?
      >
      > I think that the lowering of standards was
      > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
      > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
      > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
      > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
      > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
      > based around himself, his old Christian religion
      > and upon his opinions.
      >
      > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
      > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
      > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
      > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > etznab wrote:
      > Liska,
      >
      > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
      > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
      > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
      >
      > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
      > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
      >
      > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
      >
      > where the quote
      >
      > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
      > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
      > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
      > truths he was trying to share..."
      >
      > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
      > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
      > seven paragraphs by Doug.
      >
      > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
      >
      > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
      >
      > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
      > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
      > because he used the words of other writers for
      > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
      > was my impression of it.
      >
      > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
      > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
      > David asked there? [My particular question was
      > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
      > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
      > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
      > words from books by other authors were used to
      > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
      > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
      >
      > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
      > really make history and come out on top if only
      > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
      > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
      > and a shining example to the rest of the world
      > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
      >
      > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
      > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
      > after which he said (transcript version):
      >
      > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
      > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
      > in the Mahanta�"but not at the expense of making
      > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
      > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
      > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
      > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
      > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
      > ment. ...."
      >
      > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
      > Klemp - see link]
      >
      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd
      >
      > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
      > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
      > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
      > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
      > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
      > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
      > that others don't want to "go there".
      >
      > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
      > path is to become more of an individual and not be
      > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
      > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
      > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
      > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
      > own).
      >
      > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
      > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
      > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
      > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
      > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
      > like.)
      >
      > How long do you think religion and spiritual
      > paths have been subject to "organization" and
      > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
      > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
      > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
      > continue to evade millions of people because
      > the authorities are basing their information on
      > the information of others, based on others &
      > others ... and others ... and others.
      >
      > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
      > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
      > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
      > people today who claim to know the truth be-
      > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
      > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
      > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
      > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
      > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
      > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
      > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
      > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
      > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
      > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
      > vehicle". IMHO.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Liska and All, I, too, have heard stories from recent Seminar attendees. They have returned home somewhat depressed or sick, but then felt the need to
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 2, 2008
        Hi Liska and All,
        I, too, have heard stories from recent
        Seminar attendees. They have returned
        home somewhat depressed or sick, but
        then felt the need to rationalize the negative
        effects. This is denial because, normally,
        ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
        least a few days, but Not this time!

        Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
        more nonsensical and more devoid of
        spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
        is getting more and more mundane as
        he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
        ECKists probably thought he looked buff
        or had gained some weight due to the tight
        fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
        proof vest!

        Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
        to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
        Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
        Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
        ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
        Satsang or EK functions and they don't
        read ECK materials on a regular basis.
        Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
        that show they are looking for short cuts.
        They want to be spoon-fed things that it
        took most to discover via effort.

        Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
        This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
        needs to believe everything that is promised
        and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
        in order to make basic decisions for their
        and their family's life. Their Religion has
        become a crutch that they have come to
        rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
        has been caged by dogma and false promises.
        The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
        Those chelas in this Second Group have become
        even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
        first group they use their "imaginations" and
        "scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
        onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
        they once had when they began their spiritual
        search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
        ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
        doesn't need a religion! What's even more
        amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
        as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
        a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
        social connections, and that ego doesn't want
        to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
        these people are fearful and lazy. They need
        to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
        same effect that keeps the followers for the
        other religions in the world!

        True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
        but Klemp and Company haven't earned
        the increase in costs! What makes the
        ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
        much effort is needed to promote it?
        What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
        they have joined? They get to read Old
        Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
        and work (serve) toward more initiations.
        The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
        of Free Will and critical thinking.

        Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
        "Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
        that "Change is Change," but where's the
        CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
        the new, younger, energized, charismatic
        LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
        there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
        him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
        and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
        destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
        Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
        after the fall, thanks to those "donations"
        and book sales!

        Prometheus

        drubezarne wrote:
        Prometheus, from what I gather after
        reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
        talk was the usual ton of stories sent
        in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
        of the high cost of the internet broadcast
        in video or audio format. Others said
        the seminar costs had gone up too.

        The interesting part was how they
        searched to find justification for
        the high costs and the tons of stories.
        Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.

        We're basically looking at a religion
        in which most of the members
        want to be spoon fed whatever
        Klemp feels like dishing out.

        I predicted that Klemp would not
        let anybody take any leadership
        position (including his wife) that
        would threaten his own. I'm now
        going to dust off my crystal ball
        and make another prediction.

        Klemp will remain as the head
        of Eckankar until he dies. As he
        gets older, eckists will become
        even more attached to him. He
        will appear as the lovable wise
        old sage. We've seen this happen
        with other guru oriented paths
        such as Sant Mat.

        On the other hand, the Eckankar
        population is pretty old now with
        hardly any young people interested
        in joining. Also, the children of
        the old folks don't want to follow
        a dogmatic way out religion like
        Eckankar. They can see all the
        negative stuff about it on the Internet.

        Eckankar realizes that young people
        aren't joining so there's a push
        to promote it in 3rd world countries
        where people are more ignorant
        and have less access to the Internet.
        The trouble with that is in 3rd
        world countries people don't have
        the kind of money that Eckankar needs.

        So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
        probably die out with Klemp's passing.

        Regards
        Liska

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
        > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
        > actually, it was nice to think we would,
        > now, have two ECK Masters!
        >
        > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
        > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
        > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
        >
        > However, sometime around 1990 things,
        > for me, started to change. I noticed more
        > and more redundancy, and those simple
        > minded one dimensional stories started
        > to bring back that initial embarrassment
        > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
        > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
        > words and level of communication.
        >
        > True, there were those building projects
        > and all of those books he was writing and
        > all of those leadership trainings and intros
        > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
        > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
        > open while planning the monthly EWS and
        > Satsang classes and book discussions and
        > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
        > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
        > all chelas really have are two things- their
        > initiations and their imaginations.
        >
        > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
        > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
        > many are caught up in playing a role for both
        > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
        > and needs power and a social environment.
        > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
        > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
        >
        > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
        > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
        > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
        > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
        > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
        > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
        > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
        > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
        > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
        > blind and closed minded in order to protect
        > themselves from the truth. They need to do
        > this in order to have religion work for them.
        >
        > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
        > and expectations. They've become complacent,
        > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
        > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
        > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
        > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
        > for years and years of training they will see
        > that they really have nothing except a number
        > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
        > that has to be renewed every year... even the
        > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
        > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
        > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
        > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
        > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
        >
        > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
        > does he? He never takes responsibility for
        > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
        > the good. Where have we seen this before?
        > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
        > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
        > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
        > other lower plane teaching.
        >
        > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
        > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
        > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
        > But, where is that protection from disease?
        > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
        > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
        > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
        > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
        > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
        > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
        > lowered their standards?
        >
        > I think that the lowering of standards was
        > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
        > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
        > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
        > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
        > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
        > based around himself, his old Christian religion
        > and upon his opinions.
        >
        > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
        > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
        > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
        > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • drubezarne
        Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer comes to a presentation, they are told that they can join
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
          Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program to get newcomers to
          sign up faster. When a newcomer comes to a presentation, they are told
          that they can join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
          discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts going to a
          prearranged class.

          Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership continues to try to
          justify them. Here are some excuses by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp
          doesn't give greater insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul
          forum.

          Rationale 1

          The stories don't mean anything, because they are just a way for
          Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he can work with them on the
          inner.

          Rationale 2

          We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols. Then we have to
          interpret them according to our own sensibilities.

          Rationale 3

          Harold has to work with different states of consciousness. So, he has
          to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely frugal with what he
          reveals, and very slowly open up people to new insights.

          Rationale 4

          Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization and this
          group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic, and
          hierarchical system of Eeckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

          So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and deluded
          H.I.'s of Eckankar.

          Regards
          Liska

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Liska and All,
          > I, too, have heard stories from recent
          > Seminar attendees. They have returned
          > home somewhat depressed or sick, but
          > then felt the need to rationalize the negative
          > effects. This is denial because, normally,
          > ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
          > least a few days, but Not this time!
          >
          > Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
          > more nonsensical and more devoid of
          > spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
          > is getting more and more mundane as
          > he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
          > ECKists probably thought he looked buff
          > or had gained some weight due to the tight
          > fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
          > proof vest!
          >
          > Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
          > to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
          > Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
          > Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
          > ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
          > Satsang or EK functions and they don't
          > read ECK materials on a regular basis.
          > Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
          > that show they are looking for short cuts.
          > They want to be spoon-fed things that it
          > took most to discover via effort.
          >
          > Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
          > This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
          > needs to believe everything that is promised
          > and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
          > in order to make basic decisions for their
          > and their family's life. Their Religion has
          > become a crutch that they have come to
          > rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
          > has been caged by dogma and false promises.
          > The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
          > Those chelas in this Second Group have become
          > even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
          > first group they use their "imaginations" and
          > "scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
          > onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
          > they once had when they began their spiritual
          > search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
          > ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
          > doesn't need a religion! What's even more
          > amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
          > as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
          > a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
          > social connections, and that ego doesn't want
          > to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
          > these people are fearful and lazy. They need
          > to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
          > same effect that keeps the followers for the
          > other religions in the world!
          >
          > True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
          > but Klemp and Company haven't earned
          > the increase in costs! What makes the
          > ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
          > much effort is needed to promote it?
          > What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
          > they have joined? They get to read Old
          > Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
          > and work (serve) toward more initiations.
          > The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
          > of Free Will and critical thinking.
          >
          > Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
          > "Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
          > that "Change is Change," but where's the
          > CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
          > the new, younger, energized, charismatic
          > LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
          > there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
          > him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
          > and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
          > destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
          > Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
          > after the fall, thanks to those "donations"
          > and book sales!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > drubezarne wrote:
          > Prometheus, from what I gather after
          > reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
          > talk was the usual ton of stories sent
          > in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
          > of the high cost of the internet broadcast
          > in video or audio format. Others said
          > the seminar costs had gone up too.
          >
          > The interesting part was how they
          > searched to find justification for
          > the high costs and the tons of stories.
          > Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.
          >
          > We're basically looking at a religion
          > in which most of the members
          > want to be spoon fed whatever
          > Klemp feels like dishing out.
          >
          > I predicted that Klemp would not
          > let anybody take any leadership
          > position (including his wife) that
          > would threaten his own. I'm now
          > going to dust off my crystal ball
          > and make another prediction.
          >
          > Klemp will remain as the head
          > of Eckankar until he dies. As he
          > gets older, eckists will become
          > even more attached to him. He
          > will appear as the lovable wise
          > old sage. We've seen this happen
          > with other guru oriented paths
          > such as Sant Mat.
          >
          > On the other hand, the Eckankar
          > population is pretty old now with
          > hardly any young people interested
          > in joining. Also, the children of
          > the old folks don't want to follow
          > a dogmatic way out religion like
          > Eckankar. They can see all the
          > negative stuff about it on the Internet.
          >
          > Eckankar realizes that young people
          > aren't joining so there's a push
          > to promote it in 3rd world countries
          > where people are more ignorant
          > and have less access to the Internet.
          > The trouble with that is in 3rd
          > world countries people don't have
          > the kind of money that Eckankar needs.
          >
          > So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
          > probably die out with Klemp's passing.
          >
          > Regards
          > Liska
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
          > > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
          > > actually, it was nice to think we would,
          > > now, have two ECK Masters!
          > >
          > > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
          > > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
          > > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
          > >
          > > However, sometime around 1990 things,
          > > for me, started to change. I noticed more
          > > and more redundancy, and those simple
          > > minded one dimensional stories started
          > > to bring back that initial embarrassment
          > > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
          > > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
          > > words and level of communication.
          > >
          > > True, there were those building projects
          > > and all of those books he was writing and
          > > all of those leadership trainings and intros
          > > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
          > > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
          > > open while planning the monthly EWS and
          > > Satsang classes and book discussions and
          > > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
          > > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
          > > all chelas really have are two things- their
          > > initiations and their imaginations.
          > >
          > > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
          > > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
          > > many are caught up in playing a role for both
          > > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
          > > and needs power and a social environment.
          > > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
          > > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
          > >
          > > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
          > > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
          > > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
          > > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
          > > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
          > > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
          > > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
          > > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
          > > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
          > > blind and closed minded in order to protect
          > > themselves from the truth. They need to do
          > > this in order to have religion work for them.
          > >
          > > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
          > > and expectations. They've become complacent,
          > > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
          > > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
          > > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
          > > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
          > > for years and years of training they will see
          > > that they really have nothing except a number
          > > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
          > > that has to be renewed every year... even the
          > > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
          > > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
          > > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
          > > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
          > > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
          > >
          > > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
          > > does he? He never takes responsibility for
          > > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
          > > the good. Where have we seen this before?
          > > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
          > > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
          > > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
          > > other lower plane teaching.
          > >
          > > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
          > > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
          > > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
          > > But, where is that protection from disease?
          > > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
          > > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
          > > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
          > > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
          > > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
          > > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
          > > lowered their standards?
          > >
          > > I think that the lowering of standards was
          > > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
          > > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
          > > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
          > > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
          > > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
          > > based around himself, his old Christian religion
          > > and upon his opinions.
          > >
          > > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
          > > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
          > > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
          > > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Liska and All, Maybe there s a new Vahana tip to sign people up quickly while they re off their meds! If ECKankar made more effort to keep ECKists
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
            Hello Liska and All,
            Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
            people up quickly while they're off their
            meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
            keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
            might have more members, but the main
            focus is upon new membership numbers
            versus keeping people. The initiation game
            with their religious/psychic promises are
            what really attracts people and maintains
            the membership numbers.

            Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
            20 or more years ago would be more appealing
            than Klemp's current message. Not really!

            As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
            that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
            with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
            while appearing to maintain his connection with
            Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
            DM's making some money writing his books and
            is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
            didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
            pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
            that happens.

            Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
            to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
            copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
            Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
            that older plagiarized material would be a better
            read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!

            BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
            his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
            in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
            money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
            just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
            Should money and a personal bank account be
            important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
            ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
            with the lilies in the field.

            Prometheus

            drubezarne wrote:
            Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
            to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
            comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
            join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
            discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
            going to a prearranged class.

            Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
            continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
            by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
            insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.

            Rationale 1

            The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
            a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
            can work with them on the inner.

            Rationale 2

            We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
            Then we have to interpret them according to our own
            sensibilities.

            Rationale 3

            Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
            So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
            frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
            to new insights.

            Rationale 4

            Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
            and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
            and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

            So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
            deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.

            Regards
            Liska

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hi Liska and All,
            > I, too, have heard stories from recent
            > Seminar attendees. They have returned
            > home somewhat depressed or sick, but
            > then felt the need to rationalize the negative
            > effects. This is denial because, normally,
            > ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
            > least a few days, but Not this time!
            >
            > Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
            > more nonsensical and more devoid of
            > spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
            > is getting more and more mundane as
            > he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
            > ECKists probably thought he looked buff
            > or had gained some weight due to the tight
            > fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
            > proof vest!
            >
            > Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
            > to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
            > Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
            > Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
            > ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
            > Satsang or EK functions and they don't
            > read ECK materials on a regular basis.
            > Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
            > that show they are looking for short cuts.
            > They want to be spoon-fed things that it
            > took most to discover via effort.
            >
            > Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
            > This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
            > needs to believe everything that is promised
            > and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
            > in order to make basic decisions for their
            > and their family's life. Their Religion has
            > become a crutch that they have come to
            > rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
            > has been caged by dogma and false promises.
            > The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
            > Those chelas in this Second Group have become
            > even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
            > first group they use their "imaginations" and
            > "scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
            > onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
            > they once had when they began their spiritual
            > search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
            > ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
            > doesn't need a religion! What's even more
            > amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
            > as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
            > a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
            > social connections, and that ego doesn't want
            > to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
            > these people are fearful and lazy. They need
            > to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
            > same effect that keeps the followers for the
            > other religions in the world!
            >
            > True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
            > but Klemp and Company haven't earned
            > the increase in costs! What makes the
            > ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
            > much effort is needed to promote it?
            > What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
            > they have joined? They get to read Old
            > Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
            > and work (serve) toward more initiations.
            > The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
            > of Free Will and critical thinking.
            >
            > Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
            > "Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
            > that "Change is Change," but where's the
            > CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
            > the new, younger, energized, charismatic
            > LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
            > there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
            > him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
            > and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
            > destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
            > Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
            > after the fall, thanks to those "donations"
            > and book sales!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > drubezarne wrote:
            > Prometheus, from what I gather after
            > reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
            > talk was the usual ton of stories sent
            > in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
            > of the high cost of the internet broadcast
            > in video or audio format. Others said
            > the seminar costs had gone up too.
            >
            > The interesting part was how they
            > searched to find justification for
            > the high costs and the tons of stories.
            > Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.
            >
            > We're basically looking at a religion
            > in which most of the members
            > want to be spoon fed whatever
            > Klemp feels like dishing out.
            >
            > I predicted that Klemp would not
            > let anybody take any leadership
            > position (including his wife) that
            > would threaten his own. I'm now
            > going to dust off my crystal ball
            > and make another prediction.
            >
            > Klemp will remain as the head
            > of Eckankar until he dies. As he
            > gets older, eckists will become
            > even more attached to him. He
            > will appear as the lovable wise
            > old sage. We've seen this happen
            > with other guru oriented paths
            > such as Sant Mat.
            >
            > On the other hand, the Eckankar
            > population is pretty old now with
            > hardly any young people interested
            > in joining. Also, the children of
            > the old folks don't want to follow
            > a dogmatic way out religion like
            > Eckankar. They can see all the
            > negative stuff about it on the Internet.
            >
            > Eckankar realizes that young people
            > aren't joining so there's a push
            > to promote it in 3rd world countries
            > where people are more ignorant
            > and have less access to the Internet.
            > The trouble with that is in 3rd
            > world countries people don't have
            > the kind of money that Eckankar needs.
            >
            > So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
            > probably die out with Klemp's passing.
            >
            > Regards
            > Liska
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
            > > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
            > > actually, it was nice to think we would,
            > > now, have two ECK Masters!
            > >
            > > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
            > > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
            > > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
            > >
            > > However, sometime around 1990 things,
            > > for me, started to change. I noticed more
            > > and more redundancy, and those simple
            > > minded one dimensional stories started
            > > to bring back that initial embarrassment
            > > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
            > > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
            > > words and level of communication.
            > >
            > > True, there were those building projects
            > > and all of those books he was writing and
            > > all of those leadership trainings and intros
            > > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
            > > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
            > > open while planning the monthly EWS and
            > > Satsang classes and book discussions and
            > > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
            > > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
            > > all chelas really have are two things- their
            > > initiations and their imaginations.
            > >
            > > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
            > > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
            > > many are caught up in playing a role for both
            > > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
            > > and needs power and a social environment.
            > > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
            > > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
            > >
            > > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
            > > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
            > > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
            > > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
            > > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
            > > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
            > > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
            > > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
            > > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
            > > blind and closed minded in order to protect
            > > themselves from the truth. They need to do
            > > this in order to have religion work for them.
            > >
            > > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
            > > and expectations. They've become complacent,
            > > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
            > > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
            > > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
            > > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
            > > for years and years of training they will see
            > > that they really have nothing except a number
            > > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
            > > that has to be renewed every year... even the
            > > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
            > > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
            > > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
            > > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
            > > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
            > >
            > > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
            > > does he? He never takes responsibility for
            > > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
            > > the good. Where have we seen this before?
            > > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
            > > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
            > > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
            > > other lower plane teaching.
            > >
            > > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
            > > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
            > > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
            > > But, where is that protection from disease?
            > > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
            > > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
            > > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
            > > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
            > > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
            > > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
            > > lowered their standards?
            > >
            > > I think that the lowering of standards was
            > > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
            > > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
            > > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
            > > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
            > > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
            > > based around himself, his old Christian religion
            > > and upon his opinions.
            > >
            > > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
            > > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
            > > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
            > > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
          • drubezarne
            Prometheus, I don t think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He s like the Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he retire. He hardly does
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
              Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
              Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
              retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
              for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
              stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
              assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
              already retired.

              Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
              membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
              Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
              much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
              leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
              most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
              advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
              never underestimate the power of the ego.

              We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
              leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
              seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.

              Regards
              Liska



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Liska and All,
              > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
              > people up quickly while they're off their
              > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
              > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
              > might have more members, but the main
              > focus is upon new membership numbers
              > versus keeping people. The initiation game
              > with their religious/psychic promises are
              > what really attracts people and maintains
              > the membership numbers.
              >
              > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
              > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
              > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
              >
              > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
              > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
              > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
              > while appearing to maintain his connection with
              > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
              > DM's making some money writing his books and
              > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
              > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
              > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
              > that happens.
              >
              > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
              > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
              > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
              > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
              > that older plagiarized material would be a better
              > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
              >
              > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
              > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
              > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
              > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
              > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
              > Should money and a personal bank account be
              > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
              > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
              > with the lilies in the field.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > drubezarne wrote:
              > Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
              > to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
              > comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
              > join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
              > discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
              > going to a prearranged class.
              >
              > Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
              > continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
              > by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
              > insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.
              >
              > Rationale 1
              >
              > The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
              > a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
              > can work with them on the inner.
              >
              > Rationale 2
              >
              > We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
              > Then we have to interpret them according to our own
              > sensibilities.
              >
              > Rationale 3
              >
              > Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
              > So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
              > frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
              > to new insights.
              >
              > Rationale 4
              >
              > Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
              > and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
              > and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.
              >
              > So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
              > deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.
              >
              > Regards
              > Liska
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Liska and All, I agree that Klemp doesn t have to make much of an effort. HK uses many of the same brain washing and fear techniques while using myth,
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
                Hello Liska and All,
                I agree that Klemp doesn't have
                to make much of an effort. HK uses
                many of the same brain washing and
                fear techniques while using myth,
                imagination, and unfulfillable promises
                as the rest of the religions do.

                As for there being not many people
                (including ECKists) reading this site
                that's not exactly so. There are people
                (including ECKists) that privately contact
                members of this forum, and there are
                other indications that staffers at the
                ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
                from other EK sites. And, we've had some
                indication that Joan and Harry peek in
                every now and then. You'd be surprised.
                After all, there's really no other site like
                this one because our main focus is on
                current happenings in ECKankar and
                with Klemp rather than Twitchell.

                Also, there was that person doing the
                report on the difference between Christianity
                and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
                leaders we're able to give insights that others
                find interesting and can relate to. We can
                connect the dots for them.

                And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
                to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
                as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
                certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
                that next initiation or have as high of a position
                within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
                learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
                climb that ladder.

                Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
                site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
                that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
                share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
                Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
                or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
                by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
                of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
                this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
                Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
                had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
                ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!

                Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
                and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
                been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
                (hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!


                Prometheus.


                drubezarne wrote:
                Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                already retired.

                Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                never underestimate the power of the ego.

                We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.

                Regards
                Liska



                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Liska and All,
                > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                > people up quickly while they're off their
                > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                > might have more members, but the main
                > focus is upon new membership numbers
                > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                > with their religious/psychic promises are
                > what really attracts people and maintains
                > the membership numbers.
                >
                > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                >
                > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                > DM's making some money writing his books and
                > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                > that happens.
                >
                > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                >
                > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                > Should money and a personal bank account be
                > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                > with the lilies in the field.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
              • Leanne Thompson
                I will contact ESC and say I am a BITCH with God COnsciousness. Lets see what harry says to that. I will take over eck and let bill cosby be the leader.  
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
                  I will contact ESC and say I am a BITCH with God COnsciousness. Lets see what harry says to that.
                  I will take over eck and let bill cosby be the leader.
                   
                  Leanne

                  --- On Mon, 11/3/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: ECKists Have Lowered Standards With Klemp
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 2:54 PM

                  Hello Liska and All,
                  I agree that Klemp doesn't have
                  to make much of an effort. HK uses
                  many of the same brain washing and
                  fear techniques while using myth,
                  imagination, and unfulfillable promises
                  as the rest of the religions do.

                  As for there being not many people
                  (including ECKists) reading this site
                  that's not exactly so. There are people
                  (including ECKists) that privately contact
                  members of this forum, and there are
                  other indications that staffers at the
                  ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
                  from other EK sites. And, we've had some
                  indication that Joan and Harry peek in
                  every now and then. You'd be surprised.
                  After all, there's really no other site like
                  this one because our main focus is on
                  current happenings in ECKankar and
                  with Klemp rather than Twitchell.

                  Also, there was that person doing the
                  report on the difference between Christianity
                  and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
                  leaders we're able to give insights that others
                  find interesting and can relate to. We can
                  connect the dots for them.

                  And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
                  to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
                  as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
                  certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
                  that next initiation or have as high of a position
                  within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
                  learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
                  climb that ladder.

                  Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
                  site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
                  that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
                  share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
                  Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
                  or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
                  by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
                  of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
                  this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
                  Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
                  had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
                  ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!

                  Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
                  and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
                  been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
                  (hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!


                  Prometheus.

                  drubezarne wrote:
                  Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                  Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                  retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                  for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                  stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                  assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                  already retired.

                  Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                  membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                  Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                  much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                  leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                  most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                  advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                  never underestimate the power of the ego.

                  We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                  leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                  seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.

                  Regards
                  Liska

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Liska and All,
                  > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                  > people up quickly while they're off their
                  > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                  > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                  > might have more members, but the main
                  > focus is upon new membership numbers
                  > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                  > with their religious/psychic promises are
                  > what really attracts people and maintains
                  > the membership numbers.
                  >
                  > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                  > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                  > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                  >
                  > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                  > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                  > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                  > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                  > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                  > DM's making some money writing his books and
                  > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                  > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                  > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                  > that happens.
                  >
                  > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                  > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                  > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                  > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                  > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                  > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                  >
                  > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                  > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                  > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                  > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                  > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                  > Should money and a personal bank account be
                  > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                  > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                  > with the lilies in the field.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >


                • mishmisha9
                  Hello, Liska and All! I agree that Klemp is not likely to ever resign or step down from being the leader of Eckankar . . . and that is why I have felt he
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 4, 2008
                    Hello, Liska and All!

                    I agree that Klemp is not likely to ever resign or step down
                    from being the leader of Eckankar . . . and that is why I have
                    felt he needed to put Joan in a more leadership role. If you have
                    the time and don't mind the little expense, I highly recommend
                    reading "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" which subtly lays the
                    framework for this plan. I believe discussing this possibility here
                    on ESA has slowed the process down--after all, how could
                    non-eckists or former eckists have perceived this on the inner??
                    It would prove that we are really hot on HK's heels regarding his scam.

                    I have found it interesting that Klemp has never held a real
                    job for any length of time. Is that because he was lazy or just crazy?
                    Eckankar has been a real escape for him and provided a cushy
                    life for him, fed his delusional ego and allowed him to get away
                    with meanness and abuse of others--all in the name of being
                    the highest consciousness known to mankind! LOL!

                    As for participation and readership on this site, I agree with
                    Prometheus that there are more people reading by far than ever
                    post. Many people do not like to write or express themselves so
                    openly. I have a friends' site, many members, but few actually
                    post a comment--however, privately, I receive thank you's for
                    maintaining it. Also, I have received a few private messages
                    regarding ESA--some sharing private information they don't
                    want to post openly . . .

                    I'm sure that we have both favorable and unfavorable readership
                    as well, but that's okay. Everyone has the right to their own
                    opinions; everyone has to decide for themselves, etc. I post my
                    beliefs, observations and experiences--it doesn't mean I'm right
                    or wrong--I'm just pointing out my perspectives on the cult. I
                    don't really care who stays or leaves eckankar, but I do care about
                    presenting the Truth!

                    Mish

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne" <drubezarne@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                    > Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                    > retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                    > for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                    > stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                    > assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                    > already retired.
                    >
                    > Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                    > membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                    > Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                    > much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                    > leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                    > most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                    > advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                    > never underestimate the power of the ego.
                    >
                    > We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                    > leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                    > seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > Liska
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Liska and All,
                    > > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                    > > people up quickly while they're off their
                    > > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                    > > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                    > > might have more members, but the main
                    > > focus is upon new membership numbers
                    > > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                    > > with their religious/psychic promises are
                    > > what really attracts people and maintains
                    > > the membership numbers.
                    > >
                    > > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                    > > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                    > > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                    > >
                    > > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                    > > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                    > > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                    > > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                    > > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                    > > DM's making some money writing his books and
                    > > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                    > > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                    > > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                    > > that happens.
                    > >
                    > > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                    > > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                    > > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                    > > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                    > > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                    > > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                    > >
                    > > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                    > > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                    > > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                    > > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                    > > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                    > > Should money and a personal bank account be
                    > > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                    > > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                    > > with the lilies in the field.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > drubezarne wrote:
                    > > Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
                    > > to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
                    > > comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
                    > > join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
                    > > discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
                    > > going to a prearranged class.
                    > >
                    > > Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
                    > > continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
                    > > by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
                    > > insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.
                    > >
                    > > Rationale 1
                    > >
                    > > The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
                    > > a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
                    > > can work with them on the inner.
                    > >
                    > > Rationale 2
                    > >
                    > > We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
                    > > Then we have to interpret them according to our own
                    > > sensibilities.
                    > >
                    > > Rationale 3
                    > >
                    > > Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
                    > > So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
                    > > frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
                    > > to new insights.
                    > >
                    > > Rationale 4
                    > >
                    > > Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
                    > > and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
                    > > and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.
                    > >
                    > > So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
                    > > deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.
                    > >
                    > > Regards
                    > > Liska
                    >
                  • drubezarne
                    Prometheus, let s see how many are willing to (in Star Trek lingo) de-cloak . If you prefer to e-mail, that s fine too. So, are there any H.I. s or former
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 4, 2008
                      Prometheus, let's see how many are willing to (in Star Trek lingo)
                      "de-cloak". If you prefer to e-mail, that's fine too. So, are there
                      any H.I.'s or former H.I.'s who are unhappy with Eckankar and Harold
                      Klemp?

                      What do you think about the way H.I.'s justify Harold Klemp's shallow
                      talks? Here are the previously posted reasons again.

                      Rationale 1

                      The stories don't mean anything, because they are just a way for
                      Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he can work with them on the
                      inner.

                      Rationale 2

                      We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols. Then we have to
                      interpret them according to our own sensibilities.

                      Rationale 3

                      Harold has to work with different states of consciousness. So, he has
                      to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely frugal with what he
                      reveals, and very slowly open up people to new insights.

                      Rationale 4

                      Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization and this
                      group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic, and
                      hierarchical system of Eeckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

                      Regards
                      Liska

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Liska and All,
                      > I agree that Klemp doesn't have
                      > to make much of an effort. HK uses
                      > many of the same brain washing and
                      > fear techniques while using myth,
                      > imagination, and unfulfillable promises
                      > as the rest of the religions do.
                      >
                      > As for there being not many people
                      > (including ECKists) reading this site
                      > that's not exactly so. There are people
                      > (including ECKists) that privately contact
                      > members of this forum, and there are
                      > other indications that staffers at the
                      > ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
                      > from other EK sites. And, we've had some
                      > indication that Joan and Harry peek in
                      > every now and then. You'd be surprised.
                      > After all, there's really no other site like
                      > this one because our main focus is on
                      > current happenings in ECKankar and
                      > with Klemp rather than Twitchell.
                      >
                      > Also, there was that person doing the
                      > report on the difference between Christianity
                      > and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
                      > leaders we're able to give insights that others
                      > find interesting and can relate to. We can
                      > connect the dots for them.
                      >
                      > And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
                      > to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
                      > as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
                      > certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
                      > that next initiation or have as high of a position
                      > within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
                      > learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
                      > climb that ladder.
                      >
                      > Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
                      > site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
                      > that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
                      > share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
                      > Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
                      > or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
                      > by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
                      > of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
                      > this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
                      > Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
                      > had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
                      > ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!
                      >
                      > Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
                      > and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
                      > been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
                      > (hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!
                      >
                      >
                      > Prometheus.
                      >
                      >
                      > drubezarne wrote:
                      > Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                      > Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                      > retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                      > for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                      > stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                      > assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                      > already retired.
                      >
                      > Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                      > membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                      > Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                      > much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                      > leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                      > most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                      > advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                      > never underestimate the power of the ego.
                      >
                      > We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                      > leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                      > seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      > Liska
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Liska and All,
                      > > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                      > > people up quickly while they're off their
                      > > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                      > > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                      > > might have more members, but the main
                      > > focus is upon new membership numbers
                      > > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                      > > with their religious/psychic promises are
                      > > what really attracts people and maintains
                      > > the membership numbers.
                      > >
                      > > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                      > > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                      > > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                      > >
                      > > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                      > > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                      > > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                      > > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                      > > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                      > > DM's making some money writing his books and
                      > > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                      > > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                      > > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                      > > that happens.
                      > >
                      > > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                      > > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                      > > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                      > > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                      > > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                      > > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                      > >
                      > > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                      > > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                      > > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                      > > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                      > > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                      > > Should money and a personal bank account be
                      > > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                      > > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                      > > with the lilies in the field.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      >
                    • etznab18
                      Quoting: ... even the lifetime memberships have to be renewed every year. What happens if that ECKankar membership isn t renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 28, 2011
                        Quoting:

                        ... even the lifetime memberships have to be renewed every year. What happens if that ECKankar membership isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                        Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?

                        *********

                        About the lifetime memberships, is that true? No renewal, no membership?

                        I'm wondering if the same applies as with other memberships. Where one can go inactive (have a "rest period") for up to five years but, without renewal, they eventually become non-members.

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                        > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                        > actually, it was nice to think we would,
                        > now, have two ECK Masters!
                        >
                        > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                        > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                        > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
                        >
                        > However, sometime around 1990 things,
                        > for me, started to change. I noticed more
                        > and more redundancy, and those simple
                        > minded one dimensional stories started
                        > to bring back that initial embarrassment
                        > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                        > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                        > words and level of communication.
                        >
                        > True, there were those building projects
                        > and all of those books he was writing and
                        > all of those leadership trainings and intros
                        > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                        > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                        > open while planning the monthly EWS and
                        > Satsang classes and book discussions and
                        > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                        > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                        > all chelas really have are two things- their
                        > initiations and their imaginations.
                        >
                        > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                        > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                        > many are caught up in playing a role for both
                        > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                        > and needs power and a social environment.
                        > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                        > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
                        >
                        > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                        > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                        > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                        > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                        > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                        > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                        > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                        > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                        > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                        > blind and closed minded in order to protect
                        > themselves from the truth. They need to do
                        > this in order to have religion work for them.
                        >
                        > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                        > and expectations. They've become complacent,
                        > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                        > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                        > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                        > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                        > for years and years of training they will see
                        > that they really have nothing except a number
                        > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                        > that has to be renewed every year... even the
                        > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                        > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                        > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                        > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                        > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
                        >
                        > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                        > does he? He never takes responsibility for
                        > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                        > the good. Where have we seen this before?
                        > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                        > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                        > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                        > other lower plane teaching.
                        >
                        > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                        > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                        > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                        > But, where is that protection from disease?
                        > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                        > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                        > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                        > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                        > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                        > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                        > lowered their standards?
                        >
                        > I think that the lowering of standards was
                        > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                        > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                        > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                        > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                        > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                        > based around himself, his old Christian religion
                        > and upon his opinions.
                        >
                        > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                        > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                        > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                        > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > etznab wrote:
                        > Liska,
                        >
                        > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
                        > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
                        > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
                        >
                        > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
                        > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
                        >
                        > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
                        >
                        > where the quote
                        >
                        > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                        > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                        > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                        > truths he was trying to share..."
                        >
                        > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
                        > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
                        > seven paragraphs by Doug.
                        >
                        > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
                        >
                        > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
                        >
                        > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
                        > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
                        > because he used the words of other writers for
                        > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
                        > was my impression of it.
                        >
                        > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
                        > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
                        > David asked there? [My particular question was
                        > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
                        > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
                        > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
                        > words from books by other authors were used to
                        > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
                        > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
                        >
                        > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
                        > really make history and come out on top if only
                        > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
                        > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
                        > and a shining example to the rest of the world
                        > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
                        >
                        > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
                        > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
                        > after which he said (transcript version):
                        >
                        > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
                        > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
                        > in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
                        > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
                        > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
                        > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
                        > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
                        > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
                        > ment. ...."
                        >
                        > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
                        > Klemp - see link]
                        >
                        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%82
                        >
                        > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
                        > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
                        > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
                        > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
                        > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
                        > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
                        > that others don't want to "go there".
                        >
                        > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
                        > path is to become more of an individual and not be
                        > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
                        > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
                        > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
                        > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
                        > own).
                        >
                        > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
                        > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
                        > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
                        > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
                        > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
                        > like.)
                        >
                        > How long do you think religion and spiritual
                        > paths have been subject to "organization" and
                        > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
                        > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
                        > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
                        > continue to evade millions of people because
                        > the authorities are basing their information on
                        > the information of others, based on others &
                        > others ... and others ... and others.
                        >
                        > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
                        > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
                        > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
                        > people today who claim to know the truth be-
                        > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
                        > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
                        > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
                        > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
                        > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
                        > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
                        > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
                        > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
                        > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
                        > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
                        > vehicle". IMHO.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
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