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  • angels_still_sing
    Hi all, just wondering if someone could help me out. I m doing a report on how Eckankar relates to Christianity; how believers view each other etc. Thanks,
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 25, 2008
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      Hi all, just wondering if someone could help
      me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar
      relates to Christianity; how believers view each
      other etc.

      Thanks,
      Siani

      Prometheus Wrote:
      Hello Siani,
      Who are you writing the report for? Basically,
      just check out the LINKS page here. I could
      explain the difference to you but that would
      be writing the report for you! Check out the
      pdf version of "Confessions of a God Seeker."

      Okay, I'll tell you a few things!

      ECKankar is mostly derived from the Radhasoami
      and Ruhani Satsang sects, and was then Westernized
      by Paul Twitchell in 1965. However, PT claimed
      that others ("Masters"), prior to himself, brought
      these teachings to Earth and that these "Masters"
      originally came from Venus and Jupiter and the
      "inner" planes. Also, some of these Beings have
      never died, are still living in physical bodies that
      are hundreds and thousands of years old, although,
      this cannot be verified!

      The ECKankar "God" is called SUGMAD. Members
      of ECKankar are called ECKists. They believe in
      Karma and Planes of Consciousness/Levels of
      Heaven. Their Leader (Harold Klemp) is called the
      Living ECK Master (LEM) and Mahanta. The LEM is
      the "outer" Physical & Lower Plane Master and the
      Mahanta is the "inner" (higher) Plane Master. The
      KAL rules the Lower Planes 1-4 and is also called
      the Devil or Satan or God. According to ECKankar
      He (KAL) is the real "God" that the other religions
      of the world (except ECKankar) worship - including
      Christianity and Islam.

      Some of this information can be found in Klemp's
      "Autobiography of a Modern Prophet," page 385.
      BTW - Klemp claims to be of the 14th Plane of
      Consciousness while ECKankar has stated that Jesus
      is of the 2nd (Astral) Plane of Consciousness, and
      "God" (His "Father") is no higher than the 4th Plane
      of Consciousness. When ECKists speak of "God"
      they are not speaking of your "God" they are actually
      referring to the SUGMAD because your Christian
      "God" is really the KAL or Satan!

      I hope this has helped you to understand some of
      the Secrets behind ECKankar and what a few of the
      differences are. Also, when ECKists use the term
      "God" instead of SUGMAD it is because they are told
      to use "Common Language" so that you Non-ECKists
      won't become confused.
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Siani, Who are you writing the report for? I thought I d repost my reply to you so that it wasn t overlooked. Basically, just check out the LINKS page
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 26, 2008
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        Hello Siani,
        Who are you writing the report for? I thought
        I'd repost my reply to you so that it wasn't
        overlooked.

        Basically, just check out the LINKS page here,
        and the pdf version of "Confessions of a God
        Seeker."

        However, I will give you a brief overview of
        this New Age religion.

        FYI, all religions have strange and mysterious
        tales, and are based upon myth and faith due
        to (mostly) unverifiable scripture. The founders
        of religion will have "common" subjective/personal
        "spiritual" experiences (dreams, visions, etc.)
        which often become exaggerated or are misunderstood
        and turned into a commodity (religion) in order
        to give the masses hope and to alleviate their
        fears. Of course, all religions are, also, based
        upon lies and deceit and are used as control
        devices in order to give the Religious Leaders
        Power and Riches. Therefore, this is what ECKankar,
        actually, has in common with Christianity and
        other religions.


        *****

        ECKankar is mostly derived from the Radhasoami
        and Ruhani Satsang sects, and was then Westernized
        by Paul Twitchell in 1965. However, PT claimed
        that others ("Masters"), prior to himself, brought
        these teachings to Earth and that these "Masters"
        originally came from Venus and Jupiter and the
        "inner" planes. Also, some of these Beings have
        never died, are still living in physical bodies that
        are hundreds and thousands of years old, although,
        this cannot be verified!

        The ECKankar "God" is called SUGMAD. Members
        of ECKankar are called ECKists. They believe in
        Karma and Planes of Consciousness/Levels of
        Heaven. Their Leader (Harold Klemp) is called the
        Living ECK Master (LEM) and Mahanta. The LEM is
        the "outer" Physical & Lower Plane Master and the
        Mahanta is the "inner" (higher) Plane Master. The
        KAL rules the Lower Planes 1-4 and is also called
        the Devil or Satan or God. According to ECKankar
        He (KAL) is the real "God" that the other religions
        of the world (except ECKankar) worship - including
        Christianity and Islam.

        Some of this information can be found in Klemp's
        "Autobiography of a Modern Prophet," page 385.
        BTW - Klemp claims to be of the 14th Plane of
        Consciousness while ECKankar has stated that Jesus
        is of the 2nd (Astral) Plane of Consciousness, and
        "God" (His "Father") is no higher than the 4th Plane
        of Consciousness. When ECKists speak of "God"
        they are not speaking of your "God" they are actually
        referring to the SUGMAD because your Christian
        "God" is really the KAL or Satan!

        I hope this has helped you to understand some of
        the Secrets behind ECKankar and what a few of the
        differences are. Also, when ECKists use the term
        "God" instead of SUGMAD it is because they are told
        to use "Common Language" so that you Non-ECKists
        won't become confused.

        Prometheus


        angels_still_sing wrote:
        Hi all, just wondering if someone could help
        me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar
        relates to Christianity; how believers view each
        other etc.

        Thanks,
        Siani
      • drubezarne
        Prometheus, I would like to add to that. At one time, Paul Twitchell, the founder of Eckankar, belonged to the Catholic church. There are many similarities
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 26, 2008
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          Prometheus, I would like to add to that. At one time, Paul Twitchell,
          the founder of Eckankar, belonged to the Catholic church. There are
          many similarities between Eckankar and Catholicism.

          1. In Catholicism, they have a head of the church/religion. In
          Eckankar he has a long winded title - Sri So and So, The Mahanta, The
          Living Eck Master. In Catholicism they have a shorter title - The Pope.

          2. Just like the Pope, The head of Eckankar is infallible. In Eckankar
          they go even further because the Eck Master claims to be God on earth
          and knows what is going on everywhere in the universe and within each
          Eck member's heart because he says he is with everybody who pays their
          membership dues. Recently, the current Eck master Harold Klemp had a
          lapse in omnipresence and so the main office had to hire a company to
          do a background check on all the H.I.'s. It cost the organization a
          lot of money and effort to do this. It also held up many initiations.

          3. In Catholicism they have Cardinals. In Eckankar they have RESAS.
          Because the current Eck Master's omnipresence has been defective, he
          has had to rely on his RESAS for information about his followers.

          4. In Catholicism you have priests. In Eckankar they have high
          initiates who act like priests for wedding ceremonies, funerals,
          baptisms, and so on. The RESAS also have a problem being God-like and
          so have to rely on their high initiates to tell them about other
          eckists and if any of them are straying off the path.

          5. In Catholicism you have the saints. In Eckankar they have Eck
          Masters who are just like saints except they were made up by the
          founder Paul Twitchell and the current master Harold Klemp.

          6. In Catholicism you have the holy Roman church. In Eckankar they
          have a holy temple in Minnesota.

          I'm sure there are many other similarities, but the biggest one is
          that both religions keep their followers from leaving by using fear
          tactics such as eternal damnation. In Eckankar hell is supposed to be
          earth and the physical universe. Those who dare to leave are
          threatened with eternal reincarnation (damnation on the physical
          plane) until they accept the Eck master again and he in turn takes
          pity on the disobedient soul.

          Regards
          Liska

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Siani,
          > Who are you writing the report for? I thought
          > I'd repost my reply to you so that it wasn't
          > overlooked.
          >
          > Basically, just check out the LINKS page here,
          > and the pdf version of "Confessions of a God
          > Seeker."
          >
          > However, I will give you a brief overview of
          > this New Age religion.
          >
          > FYI, all religions have strange and mysterious
          > tales, and are based upon myth and faith due
          > to (mostly) unverifiable scripture. The founders
          > of religion will have "common" subjective/personal
          > "spiritual" experiences (dreams, visions, etc.)
          > which often become exaggerated or are misunderstood
          > and turned into a commodity (religion) in order
          > to give the masses hope and to alleviate their
          > fears. Of course, all religions are, also, based
          > upon lies and deceit and are used as control
          > devices in order to give the Religious Leaders
          > Power and Riches. Therefore, this is what ECKankar,
          > actually, has in common with Christianity and
          > other religions.
          >
          >
          > *****
          >
          > ECKankar is mostly derived from the Radhasoami
          > and Ruhani Satsang sects, and was then Westernized
          > by Paul Twitchell in 1965. However, PT claimed
          > that others ("Masters"), prior to himself, brought
          > these teachings to Earth and that these "Masters"
          > originally came from Venus and Jupiter and the
          > "inner" planes. Also, some of these Beings have
          > never died, are still living in physical bodies that
          > are hundreds and thousands of years old, although,
          > this cannot be verified!
          >
          > The ECKankar "God" is called SUGMAD. Members
          > of ECKankar are called ECKists. They believe in
          > Karma and Planes of Consciousness/Levels of
          > Heaven. Their Leader (Harold Klemp) is called the
          > Living ECK Master (LEM) and Mahanta. The LEM is
          > the "outer" Physical & Lower Plane Master and the
          > Mahanta is the "inner" (higher) Plane Master. The
          > KAL rules the Lower Planes 1-4 and is also called
          > the Devil or Satan or God. According to ECKankar
          > He (KAL) is the real "God" that the other religions
          > of the world (except ECKankar) worship - including
          > Christianity and Islam.
          >
          > Some of this information can be found in Klemp's
          > "Autobiography of a Modern Prophet," page 385.
          > BTW - Klemp claims to be of the 14th Plane of
          > Consciousness while ECKankar has stated that Jesus
          > is of the 2nd (Astral) Plane of Consciousness, and
          > "God" (His "Father") is no higher than the 4th Plane
          > of Consciousness. When ECKists speak of "God"
          > they are not speaking of your "God" they are actually
          > referring to the SUGMAD because your Christian
          > "God" is really the KAL or Satan!
          >
          > I hope this has helped you to understand some of
          > the Secrets behind ECKankar and what a few of the
          > differences are. Also, when ECKists use the term
          > "God" instead of SUGMAD it is because they are told
          > to use "Common Language" so that you Non-ECKists
          > won't become confused.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > angels_still_sing wrote:
          > Hi all, just wondering if someone could help
          > me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar
          > relates to Christianity; how believers view each
          > other etc.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Siani
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Liska, Siani, and All, Let s also remember that ECKists see the God of other Religions as KAL/Satan and of the Lower Worlds and no higher than the 2nd
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 26, 2008
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            Hi Liska, Siani, and All,
            Let's also remember that ECKists see the "God"
            of other Religions as KAL/Satan and of the Lower
            Worlds and no higher than the 2nd (Astral) or
            4th (Mental) Planes of Consciousness!

            ECKankar believes its Higher Initiates (H.I.s) are
            of, at least, the 5th (Soul) Plane of Consciousness!
            Therefore, ECK H.I.s are greater than the "God"
            that the other religions of the world worship!

            If they only knew!!! LOL!

            Prometheus


            drubezarne wrote:
            Prometheus, I would like to add to that. At one time, Paul Twitchell,
            the founder of Eckankar, belonged to the Catholic church. There are
            many similarities between Eckankar and Catholicism.

            1. In Catholicism, they have a head of the church/religion. In
            Eckankar he has a long winded title - Sri So and So, The Mahanta, The
            Living Eck Master. In Catholicism they have a shorter title - The Pope.

            2. Just like the Pope, The head of Eckankar is infallible. In Eckankar
            they go even further because the Eck Master claims to be God on earth
            and knows what is going on everywhere in the universe and within each
            Eck member's heart because he says he is with everybody who pays their
            membership dues. Recently, the current Eck master Harold Klemp had a
            lapse in omnipresence and so the main office had to hire a company to
            do a background check on all the H.I.'s. It cost the organization a
            lot of money and effort to do this. It also held up many initiations.

            3. In Catholicism they have Cardinals. In Eckankar they have RESAS.
            Because the current Eck Master's omnipresence has been defective, he
            has had to rely on his RESAS for information about his followers.

            4. In Catholicism you have priests. In Eckankar they have high
            initiates who act like priests for wedding ceremonies, funerals,
            baptisms, and so on. The RESAS also have a problem being God-like and
            so have to rely on their high initiates to tell them about other
            eckists and if any of them are straying off the path.

            5. In Catholicism you have the saints. In Eckankar they have Eck
            Masters who are just like saints except they were made up by the
            founder Paul Twitchell and the current master Harold Klemp.

            6. In Catholicism you have the holy Roman church. In Eckankar they
            have a holy temple in Minnesota.

            I'm sure there are many other similarities, but the biggest one is
            that both religions keep their followers from leaving by using fear
            tactics such as eternal damnation. In Eckankar hell is supposed to be
            earth and the physical universe. Those who dare to leave are
            threatened with eternal reincarnation (damnation on the physical
            plane) until they accept the Eck master again and he in turn takes
            pity on the disobedient soul.

            Regards
            Liska

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Siani,
            > Who are you writing the report for? I thought
            > I'd repost my reply to you so that it wasn't
            > overlooked.
            >
            > Basically, just check out the LINKS page here,
            > and the pdf version of "Confessions of a God
            > Seeker."
            >
            > However, I will give you a brief overview of
            > this New Age religion.
            >
            > FYI, all religions have strange and mysterious
            > tales, and are based upon myth and faith due
            > to (mostly) unverifiable scripture. The founders
            > of religion will have "common" subjective/personal
            > "spiritual" experiences (dreams, visions, etc.)
            > which often become exaggerated or are misunderstood
            > and turned into a commodity (religion) in order
            > to give the masses hope and to alleviate their
            > fears. Of course, all religions are, also, based
            > upon lies and deceit and are used as control
            > devices in order to give the Religious Leaders
            > Power and Riches. Therefore, this is what ECKankar,
            > actually, has in common with Christianity and
            > other religions.
            >
            >
            > *****
            >
            > ECKankar is mostly derived from the Radhasoami
            > and Ruhani Satsang sects, and was then Westernized
            > by Paul Twitchell in 1965. However, PT claimed
            > that others ("Masters"), prior to himself, brought
            > these teachings to Earth and that these "Masters"
            > originally came from Venus and Jupiter and the
            > "inner" planes. Also, some of these Beings have
            > never died, are still living in physical bodies that
            > are hundreds and thousands of years old, although,
            > this cannot be verified!
            >
            > The ECKankar "God" is called SUGMAD. Members
            > of ECKankar are called ECKists. They believe in
            > Karma and Planes of Consciousness/Levels of
            > Heaven. Their Leader (Harold Klemp) is called the
            > Living ECK Master (LEM) and Mahanta. The LEM is
            > the "outer" Physical & Lower Plane Master and the
            > Mahanta is the "inner" (higher) Plane Master. The
            > KAL rules the Lower Planes 1-4 and is also called
            > the Devil or Satan or God. According to ECKankar
            > He (KAL) is the real "God" that the other religions
            > of the world (except ECKankar) worship - including
            > Christianity and Islam.
            >
            > Some of this information can be found in Klemp's
            > "Autobiography of a Modern Prophet," page 385.
            > BTW - Klemp claims to be of the 14th Plane of
            > Consciousness while ECKankar has stated that Jesus
            > is of the 2nd (Astral) Plane of Consciousness, and
            > "God" (His "Father") is no higher than the 4th Plane
            > of Consciousness. When ECKists speak of "God"
            > they are not speaking of your "God" they are actually
            > referring to the SUGMAD because your Christian
            > "God" is really the KAL or Satan!
            >
            > I hope this has helped you to understand some of
            > the Secrets behind ECKankar and what a few of the
            > differences are. Also, when ECKists use the term
            > "God" instead of SUGMAD it is because they are told
            > to use "Common Language" so that you Non-ECKists
            > won't become confused.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > angels_still_sing wrote:
            > Hi all, just wondering if someone could help
            > me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar
            > relates to Christianity; how believers view each
            > other etc.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Siani
          • Sharon
            ... Here s some information I just found while going thru some old printouts. Hope it helps!! ************************************* From: catlist@aol.com
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 28, 2008
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              > Hi all, just wondering if someone could help
              > me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar
              > relates to Christianity; how believers view each
              > other etc.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Siani


              Here's some information I just found while going thru some old
              printouts. Hope it helps!!

              *************************************
              From: catlist@... (Catalyst)
              Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
              Subject: The Eck Master Jesus
              Date: 12 Dec 2001 21:27:35 -0800

              One of the puzzles Paul Twitchell and ECKANKAR have left us over the
              years is how to relate to Jesus. Sometimes Jesus is dismissed as a
              mere Kal savior. At other times it is claimed he was an ECK initiate.
              And in other places it is even written that he was an Eck Master.
              Harold says Jesus was his boyhood pal in ancient Judea. In one place
              Paul says Jesus studied for several years under an Eck Master named
              Zadok among the Essenses in Judea. In another he says Jesus studied
              under the Eck Master Fubbi Quantz in Tibet for three years.
              Nowadays in ECKANKAR Jesus is just sort of out there somewhere, a
              teacher but not an Eck Master – a teacher who is said to
              occasionally send his students to one of the Eck Masters because he
              himself can take them no further on their spiritual journey. What is
              wrong with this picture?
              First a few quotes from Paul Twitchell about Jesus. In his book
              The Key to ECKANKAR (1968 edition, page 42) Paul puts the following
              words into the mouth of Rebazar Tarzs - - - < I should tell you at
              this point that Christ was one of the great ECK Masters, for he
              received his training with the Essenes. This mystical group of masters
              was trained as Eck teachers, and acted as part of the mystery school
              of wisdom for the purpose of spreading the truth of the Sugmad.>
              Though some people make a distinction between Christ (a state of
              consciousness) and Jesus (a man), Paul is obviously writing here about
              Jesus, because he is referring to a man who was trained by the
              Essenes.
              The quote from The Key to Eckankar about Jesus being an Eck
              master is consistent with a passage in the Eckankar Bible, the
              Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One, where Paul wrote that Jesus was the
              Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Christians. (page 35 in
              the 1987 edition) It is generally accepted in Eckankar that the
              Mahanta consciousness appears to people through the form of the Living
              Eck Master. So one of these quotes states explicitly that Christ was
              an Eck master, and one implies he was.
              That Jesus studied under an Eck Master named Zadok is written in
              The Spiritual Notebook, 1971 edition, page 192. There Paul writes - -
              - <Zadok was living, at the time of his ECK Mastership, in the country
              of Judea, north of Jerusalem. His work was with a small group of
              followers who had broken with the Essenes. Zadok saw the man named
              Jesus, talked with him on several occasions, and knew his purpose in
              this world. He also knew that their missions did not cross with each
              other after Jesus left the ECK group, with whom he studied for some
              time under the great Zadok. The ECK Master gave Jesus the basic
              fundamentals of ECKANKAR, who used them in his own teachings.>
              And what about Jesus in Tibet? This comes from Letters to a Chela
              chapter 3 where Paul writes - - - <His father Joseph was an Aryan and
              his mother Jewish. Joseph was a member of the Essenes. His (Jesus)
              name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of Jesus until he
              was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
              Monastery in northern Tibet. (This is odd, because one is supposed to
              get a spiritual name in Eck only when he gets the Ninth initiation).
              This was the last place he studied before returning to the world to
              preach his message. He spent three years at the Monastery where he
              studied ECK and received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated
              anyone during his life on earth. He never had the power to do this.
              The fact that Jesus rose from the dead and visited among his
              followers, and spent 72 days teaching his people on earth is hardly
              anything more than what any good ECKist can do. (Whoa! Does Paul like
              to stretch the truth a little?) He will never return for he has been
              working on the fourth plane for all these centuries and is likely
              never to leave because this is where he has been assigned by the
              spiritual hierarchy for time unlimited.>
              When Paul leaves such a convoluted mess of writings on a specific
              subject (which he does frequently), what is one to conclude? In this
              case I have come up with four theories. I would be interested which
              theory you various readers believe to be the most probable. Or maybe
              someone can think up a better theory than any of them. Here they are.
              THEORY 1. Jesus is not now, nor has he ever been an Eck initiate
              anywhere outside of the imagination of Paul. Despite the quotes above,
              this case can actually be made within the belief system of Eckankar.
              How? If Jesus was an Eck Initiate under Zadok two thousand years ago,
              he would have (almost certainly) gone on to become an Eck Master by
              now. Paul and Harold tell us that once you get that second initiation
              there is no turning back – you are an Eckist until you reach
              mastership. Even if you try to quit you will only come back in another
              life to continue on. So if Jesus really got initiated by Fubbi Quantz,
              he should be an Eck master now.
              On the other hand, if Jesus was already an Eck Master in ancient
              times, as Paul has Rebazar telling us above, then he would still be
              one. In either case, he should be an Eck Master today. Yet everywhere
              else in the Eckankar writings, neither Paul nor Harold ever suggests
              or hints in any way that Jesus is an Eck Master. This would be a very
              odd silence if Jesus were in fact an Eck master, would it not?
              Therefore, despite the lip service Paul gave in places to Jesus being
              an Eck Master and / or an Eck initiate, there is no follow through to
              suggest he or Harold actually believe it. Ergo, Jesus has never been
              an Eck initiate.
              THEORY 2. Jesus studied first under Zadok for a time, then
              traveled to Tibet and studied under Fubbi Quantz for three years where
              he got his second initiation. After he left Tibet and returned to his
              public mission in Judea, he continued to get inner initiations from
              Fubbi or Zadok, achieving Eck mastership in that lifetime before he
              was killed. This would pull together the above quotes by Paul into one
              piece of a coherent narrative. But this coherence breaks down in the
              overall context of the Eckankar writings. It fails to explain why
              Jesus is so often portrayed by Paul and Harold as a Kal savior and
              lower order teacher. If Theory 2 is correct Jesus should be a strong
              Eck master figure in modern Eckankar. And he is not. So this theory
              has several very weak points.
              THEORY 3. The confusing and conflicting writings about Jesus are
              evidence that Paul was just a liar with a poor memory. I do not know
              if there is strong evidence that Paul had a weak memory. Maybe he did.
              There is certainly evidence he was a liar. Or if it rests easier on
              your ears, that he was a story teller.
              THEORY 4. The conflicting writings on Jesus are evidence that
              Paul simply shifted his position about Jesus for his own purposes,
              changing it from page to page, and from book to book, with a casual
              disregard for consistency. I think this fits in well with the Doug
              Marmon theory of Paul – that he likes to show readers all points
              of view about a subject without being picky about facts and
              consistency. Or put another way, if Theory 3 suggests Paul was a liar
              with a poor memory, Theory 4 eliminates the supposition that he had a
              poor memory, and just leaves him a liar.
              If we are to believe Doug, he lies for noble reasons. (Oops. I
              slipped into the Age of Criticism there. Let me get back to proper
              dialog.) What I meant is that if we are to believe Doug, Paul is not
              lying, he is showing us many points of view from many states of
              consciousness. On the other hand, if we are to side with the Eckankar
              critics, Paul lies to deceive. Whatever his motive for frequently
              shifting his position on Jesus, I think this theory has more strength
              than Theory 3 because it is unlikely that Paul would be forgetful
              about whether Jesus was or was not an Eck master.
              CONCLUSION. It looks to me like Theory 1 and Theory 4 in
              combination are the most probable. I would give them about a 75
              percent chance of being the true explanation. (I just made up that
              statistic. If you challenge me I will back away from it. <g>)
              Though I dealt with the subject of Jesus in this posting, I have
              found that the problem it illustrates is pandemic in the writings of
              Paul Twitchell. To borrow from a visual in Doug Marmons book, Paul
              created a sort of scarecrow out of patches of straw and odd bits of
              cloth and clothing. Doug was trying to say in his book that this is
              precisely what Paul did NOT do. But to me it is evident all over his
              writings that they are a patchwork of mismatched bits and pieces of
              ideas poorly quilted together in an effort to look like a unified
              belief system. Of course there is a certain overall feel to the
              teachings. No matter where he got his bits of cloth, he is still the
              quilt maker. He left his stamp by choosing what to leave in and what
              to leave out.
              **********************************

              From: jerre...@... (Joe)
              Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
              Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
              Date: 13 Dec 2001 21:16:31 -0800


              The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying to do with
              Eckankar...

              Having long considered these two questions in the context of the whole
              of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way
              that I'm not sure I can classify.

              Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say what
              Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter, or
              a con-artist. There's another element there very hard to define.

              But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other spiritual
              teachers, we are actually reading him:

              Talking about himself.

              For example, here he is refering to Jesus:

              "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied ECK and
              received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated anyone during
              his life on earth. He never had the power to do this."

              Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD, and received
              the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never granted permission
              by Singh or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe Paulji
              was speaking from his own insecurity here.

              We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the discourses
              when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as
              "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual goods like pots and
              pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda and
              Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji did, and
              hence his projected anger.

              What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We don't exactly
              know how he felt about his Christian upbringing. We do know, however,
              that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the Catholic
              Church but was rejected.

              I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident) Paulji did
              not have a comfortable relationship with the religion of his
              upbringing. I also think this accounts for what to me is the very
              worst and most deviant aspect of his eck writings: His dire warnings
              to those who join eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.

              Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from his unresolved
              issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is on tape
              asking Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays his
              Master"?

              So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way he felt about
              himself.


              **********************************
              Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
              From: "Sharon2000" <brighttigr...@...>
              Date: 21 Dec 2001 01:17:57 GMT
              Organization: Eckankar Sucks
              Message-ID: <20011220201757.035$Qz@...>
              Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar,alt.eckankar

              jerre...@... (Joe) wrote:
              > The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying to do with
              > Eckankar...
              >
              > Having long considered these two questions in the context of the
              whole
              > of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way
              > that I'm not sure I can classify.
              >
              > Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say what
              > Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter,
              or
              > a con-artist. There's another element there very hard to define.
              >
              > But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other spiritual
              > teachers, we are actually reading him:
              >
              > Talking about himself.
              >
              > For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
              >
              > "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied ECK and
              > received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated anyone during
              > his life on earth. He never had the power to do this."
              >
              > Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD, and
              received
              > the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never granted
              permission
              > by Singh or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe
              Paulji
              > was speaking from his own insecurity here.
              >
              > We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the discourses
              > when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as
              > "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual goods like pots and
              > pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda and
              > Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji did, and
              > hence his projected anger.
              >
              > What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We don't
              exactly
              > know how he felt about his Christian upbringing. We do know,
              however,
              > that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the Catholic
              > Church but was rejected.
              >
              > I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident) Paulji
              did
              > not have a comfortable relationship with the religion of his
              > upbringing. I also think this accounts for what to me is the very
              > worst and most deviant aspect of his eck writings: His dire
              warnings
              > to those who join eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.
              >
              > Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from his
              unresolved
              > issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is on
              tape
              > asking Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays his
              > Master"?
              >
              > So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way he felt about
              > himself.


              You made some *very* good observations here, Joe! So much of Twitch's
              "writings", well...all those years I was a member, I just didn't feel
              quite
              comfortable with him. It bothered me, of course. I knew my feelings
              weren't "properly ecky".

              Does anyone know what denomination Twitch was raised in? It
              definitely
              wasn't Catholic...the eckversion of Twitch's wanting to join
              Catholicism
              was that he was refused because he was divorced. That's not true...I
              checked. A divorce prior to becoming Catholic doesn't count. Twitch
              wanted to become Catholic because he was having an affair with a
              Catholic
              woman (ask Doug Marman about this one! <ggg> You won't get an honest
              answer, though.) and he wanted to marry her. And he was willing to
              be a
              phony & join the Catholic Church just to get a woman.

              Anyway...Twitch also wrote some *very* unflattering things about
              Jesus in
              Letters to a Chela, but I just popped over to Delphi and oh horrors,
              not
              all of that chapter is there! And there's no note that says "message
              truncated" with an option to click & see the whole thing...I have to
              go
              back over the whole site and check it out...but you know, I haven't
              looked
              at LC for awhile. Skimming here and there, well...Twitch is not only
              pushing his cultic recruiting, but also doing as much as possible to
              destroy any "positive" feelings about any other religions (which he
              admitted to wanting to destroy) and I think what he writes about Jesus
              shows this. He was deliberately trying to paint a *very* unpleasant
              picture of him!!! And isn't it sort of hilarious how in
              Twitch's "Holey
              Scriptures" he claimed to be born of a virgin? <giggle>

              Anyway...here's an excerpt I found at Google...Twitch on Jesus!

              From "Letters to a Chela" by Paul Twitchell:

              "Jesus is dead whether anyone believes this or not. He died some 2000
              years ago and has not been with this world since. This is the saddest
              aspect of Christian religious history, that he had to disappear to
              give way
              to a clerical, priestly image. Christianity as a historic religion
              was not
              founded by Jesus, but by an educated Jew named Paul, who was adopted
              by the
              mother church as St. Paul. However, Jesus is now the figurement of
              the
              traditional writings, which have been edited through the centuries by
              various writers mainly in the Catholic and Protestant churches."

              (However, Twitch claimed that St. Paul was a member of the secret
              order
              of the ECK Masters in his "secret discourses," Precepts of
              Eckankar, #
              5....the early versions, that is. By the time *I* got this set of
              discourses, Klemp had edited it out. Klemp's done LOTS of editing
              in the
              cult's brief history.)


              "However, nothing new can be added about this man who made claims,
              according to his biographers, that he was the Son of Man and later as
              his
              biographers tried to establish as God who had manifested himself;
              note the
              word "himself," which is an expression of the lower worlds. The true
              God,
              the SUGMAD, is always designated as IT which has no gender.
              Therefore we
              see him as really a son of Kal Niranjan who is king of the lower
              worlds who
              expresses himself in the male gender..."

              ("...the Supreme Deity, the Sugmad Himself." Eckankar, the Secret
              Way,
              1967. "He will not require that you love Him as a great
              soul..." "His
              love...He feeds me..." The Tiger's Fang, 1967)


              Those priests and clergy who preach the word of Jesus and the God of
              Christianity is thereby only speaking in the terms of institutional
              religion, that of the educated. They preach from the Christian
              Bible, as
              the authority for their case, based upon the words of their God.
              Therefore
              we find that this is a false teaching for the Bible is accepted as
              being
              the Guru, or the Master which gives the words which those Biblical
              writers
              have put into the mouth of a man who lived 2,000 years ago and never
              said
              anything close to what his followers claim down through the ages."


              ("When the sacred teachings of the ECK have been put into printed
              books,
              such as the SHARIYAT-KI-SUGMAD, all ECK chelas can go forth and by
              using
              it as reference can give all the holy scriptures of it to the world.
              There
              is none greater than this magnificent scripture and we as the chelas
              of
              ECK must use it as the source book, the living Bible of our beliefs
              and
              faith." Twitch, Illuminated Way Letters, page 216 )


              "It's said that Christians get to heaven simply with faith and an act
              of
              grace. This ws the basic teachings which Jesus taught becuse he knew
              that
              it would appeal to all people on a general basis. Also the denial of
              this
              world would bring poor and middle clss into his teachings."

              (Good grief, this is EXACTLY the strategy that twitch used when
              setting
              up his cult. Except...It's faith in the LEM, and initiation &
              continued
              membership in the cult. Twitch, and now Klemp, are quite open about
              telling their "missionaries" to be sure to tell people what will
              appeal to
              them...)

              "His father Joseph was an Aryan and his mother Jewish. Joseph was a
              member
              of the Essenes, a secret society which flourished in those times. The
              biblical story of the immaculate conception is not to be taken too
              seriously, that Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost and from a Virgin.
              This
              was invented to fit into the theology which at the time was
              formulated for
              saviour-gods."

              (tee-hee. Twitch in his pseudo-Bible: "The ECK enters into the
              womb of a
              virgin, the queen of heaven, who has submitted to the true spirit of
              the
              universe. The consciousness of the Mahanta state (the spiritual form
              of the
              human Eckankar leader) is planted as the seed, and carefully
              nurtured in
              the womb. When the embodiment of flesh is brought into this world, a
              man-
              child is born. It starts its unfoldment over a period of years until
              the
              state of perfection is reached, in adulthood. Then the chosen one
              learns
              that he is the Living ECK Master of his times." SKS 1, pg. 111-112,
              2nd
              ed., 10th printing, 1987)

              ". . .His name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of Jesus
              until
              he was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
              Monastery
              in northern Tibet. This was the last place where he studied before
              returning to the world to preach his message. He had been in Egypt,
              Palestine, Persia, and India studying under various teachers and
              entering
              into the mystery schools to learn about them. He spent three years
              at the
              Katsupari Monastery where he studied ECK and received the second
              initiation. He believed then this was the moment to give his messge
              to the
              world...."

              (I'll have to check up on Fubbi. In The Tiger's Fang, Twitch says
              that
              Fubbi was the LEM in 10th century Persia...make up your mind,
              Twitch!!)

              "The dust, grime, and poverty of that age was appalling, and disease
              rampant...Jesus was a marked man long before Judas got any idea about
              betraying him.

              He was a small slender man, of dark complexion, and wore a long robe
              characteristic of his times. His hair was short because of the heat
              and
              his beard, like his hair, was brown, but short also. The insects and
              lice
              were too abundant to wear long hair and beards. He was about five
              feet,
              one inch tall, dark eyes and wore sandals most of the time because of
              the
              earth ws too hot to tread barefooted. His face was broad, and full
              jowled.
              The pictures which we see of him today are an artist's concept,
              painted by
              a German during the 16th century."

              (Hmmmm....just a thought...I seem to remember, Giotto painted some
              much
              earlier things...probably others did...maybe twitch is referring to
              the
              blue-eyes one you see in many churches...unimportant, anyway...)

              "Of course he wore a hood which kept the burning sun from cracking
              the skin
              of his scalp. The title Christ was given to him long after his
              death, the
              spiritual name Jesus was bestowed upon him by Fubbi Quantz, and his
              messge
              to the world was a simplified version of ECKANKAR, which was mangled
              by his
              followers and Paul the founder of Christianity. He never meant for
              his own
              teachings to go beyond his times because he realized that the ECK
              Masters
              had their own plans for the world's spiritual unfoldment. He knew
              that man
              had not even progressed to the stage of astral development, and was
              not
              ready for anything which went beyond this in his simple nature.

              Jesus was shrewd and the Romans watching him were foiled for three
              years;
              they had to wait until the proper time when one of his disciples
              showed a
              weakness. It turned out to be Judas who was the treasurer of his
              little
              band..."

              Later in Chapter 3 of LC:

              "Since Christianity is only an aspect of the ECK there is no need of
              viewing it or any other religion with awe. Therefore we must look
              upon
              each with a sympathetic view that every groups is respectively
              struggling
              to find the Godhead. Since every ECKist knows that the Godhead is
              that
              which is available only through the path of ECK then he must be warm,
              sympthetic, and helpful to those in religions, occultism and
              philosophies
              for they are all the subordinates of ECKANKAR..."

              __________________________________

              Well...I'll have to check out LC at Delphi to make sure they're all
              complete...I think I posted them all here at a.r.e. first, I know
              I've got
              them all on the hard drive of a computer I don't have hooked up right
              now...

              Bye!

              Ho Ho Hugs!

              Sharon

              --
              FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links



              ***************************************
              Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar
              From: ran1...@... (Troll)
              Date: 21 Dec 2001 16:30:18 -0800
              Local: Fri, Dec 21 2001 8:30 pm
              Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus


              Greetings Sharon and Merry Xmass !
              If memory serves, Dr.Lane discovered that Paul Twitchell was raised
              in
              a fundamentalist religion, the Church of Christ. Paul Iverlet,Titch's
              brother-in-law, were devout Christians. That Paul's Dad, John(I
              think), if he were still living would have beat the hell out of Pau
              Twitchell for the lies Paul Twitchell told about his family in
              Twitch's book,'In My Soul I Am Free'.
              I think one of the links at http://www.geocities.com/eckcult is where
              the account can be found.
              Troll


              *********************************************
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Sharon and All, Twitchell and Klemp have also stated that the Mahanta Consciousness appeared as Jupiter the mythical Roman God. Also, the Mahanta
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 28, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Sharon and All,
                Twitchell and Klemp have also stated that
                the Mahanta Consciousness appeared as
                "Jupiter" the mythical Roman God. Also,
                the Mahanta Consciousness appeared as
                "Jehovah" a.k.a. "Jot Niranjan" (from the
                Astral Plane) to the old Judeans.
                [ECKankar Lexicon, pgs. 103, 104, 105]

                BTW-I like what "Joe" has stated below.
                It's no wonder ECKists see Jesus as a
                Second Initiate regardless of the other
                Mahanta Consciousness crap they've
                heard. After all, in the above definition
                for JEHOVAH (GOD) the Father, we see
                that HK has defined Him as JOT NIRANJAN
                (KAL/SATAN/DEVIL) of the ASTRAL PLANE!

                Prometheus


                *****
                Hi all, just wondering if someone could help
                me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar
                relates to Christianity; how believers view each
                other etc.

                Thanks,
                Siani


                Sharon wrote:
                Here's some information I just found while going
                thru some old printouts. Hope it helps!!

                The Eck Master Jesus
                Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar,alt.eckankar


                JOE WROTE:
                The big question: who was Paul and what
                was he trying to do with Eckankar...
                >
                Having long considered these two questions
                in the context of the whole of Paulji's writings,
                I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way
                that I'm not sure I can classify.
                >
                Taking the example you've given us here,
                I can't really say what Paulji did with Jesus
                is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter,
                or a con-artist. There's another element there
                very hard to define.
                >
                But...I think that so often, when we read
                Paulji on other spiritual teachers, we are
                actually reading him Talking about himself.
                >
                For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
                >
                "He spent three years at the Monastery where
                he studied ECK and received the second initiation.
                Jesus never initiated anyone during his life on earth.
                He never had the power to do this."
                >
                Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery
                in MD, and received the one initiation from Kirpal
                Singh, and was never granted permission by Singh
                or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe
                Paulji was speaking from his own insecurity here.
                >
                We see him talking about himself again, I believe,
                in the discourses when he lashes out at "Indian
                Gurus" whom he refers to as "indescribably filthy,"
                and who "sell spiritual goods like pots and pans."
                The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by,
                Premananda and Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for
                their teachings. Paulji did, and hence his projected
                anger.
                >
                What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity?
                We don't exactly know how he felt about his Christian
                upbringing. We do know, however, that AFTER he wrote
                THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the Catholic Church
                but was rejected.
                >
              • drubezarne
                Sharon, thanks for researching all that about Jesus as portrayed by Twitchell and Klemp. An old Russian proverb says, With lies you may go ahead in the world,
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 29, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sharon, thanks for researching all that about Jesus as portrayed by
                  Twitchell and Klemp.

                  An old Russian proverb says, "With lies you may go ahead in the world,
                  but you can never go back."

                  Once Twitchell wrote his lies, he couldn't go back and change them, so
                  he just moved on and piled more lies on top of the old ones. It's the
                  reason why there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions
                  throughout the Eckankar writings.

                  Klemp chose not to confront the lies of his predecessor. So, he
                  continued piling more lies on top of Twitchell's old ones.

                  Doug Marman has been accused of being intellectually dishonest. It's
                  easy to see when he tries to cover up Twitchell's lies by saying,
                  "Paul is not lying, he is showing us many points of view from many
                  states of consciousness."

                  Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms, especially with
                  regards to Julian Johnson's The Path of the Masters by saying, "In
                  other words, Paul cast the material in the form of a dialogue with an
                  ECK Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better way of
                  portraying the truths he was trying to share... "

                  Twitchell lied for the sake of expediency so that he could quickly
                  create a cult with himself as its head. Klemp, and Marman continue the
                  lies because they are convenient and practical regardless of being
                  immoral. Mark Twain understood the nature of lies when he said, "A lie
                  can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its
                  shoes."

                  Regards
                  Liska

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon"
                  <brighttigress@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi all, just wondering if someone could help
                  > > me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar
                  > > relates to Christianity; how believers view each
                  > > other etc.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Siani
                  >
                  >
                  > Here's some information I just found while going thru some old
                  > printouts. Hope it helps!!
                  >
                  > *************************************
                  > From: catlist@... (Catalyst)
                  > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
                  > Subject: The Eck Master Jesus
                  > Date: 12 Dec 2001 21:27:35 -0800
                  >
                  > One of the puzzles Paul Twitchell and ECKANKAR have left us over the
                  > years is how to relate to Jesus. Sometimes Jesus is dismissed as a
                  > mere Kal savior. At other times it is claimed he was an ECK initiate.
                  > And in other places it is even written that he was an Eck Master.
                  > Harold says Jesus was his boyhood pal in ancient Judea. In one place
                  > Paul says Jesus studied for several years under an Eck Master named
                  > Zadok among the Essenses in Judea. In another he says Jesus studied
                  > under the Eck Master Fubbi Quantz in Tibet for three years.
                  > Nowadays in ECKANKAR Jesus is just sort of out there somewhere, a
                  > teacher but not an Eck Master – a teacher who is said to
                  > occasionally send his students to one of the Eck Masters because he
                  > himself can take them no further on their spiritual journey. What is
                  > wrong with this picture?
                  > First a few quotes from Paul Twitchell about Jesus. In his book
                  > The Key to ECKANKAR (1968 edition, page 42) Paul puts the following
                  > words into the mouth of Rebazar Tarzs - - - < I should tell you at
                  > this point that Christ was one of the great ECK Masters, for he
                  > received his training with the Essenes. This mystical group of masters
                  > was trained as Eck teachers, and acted as part of the mystery school
                  > of wisdom for the purpose of spreading the truth of the Sugmad.>
                  > Though some people make a distinction between Christ (a state of
                  > consciousness) and Jesus (a man), Paul is obviously writing here about
                  > Jesus, because he is referring to a man who was trained by the
                  > Essenes.
                  > The quote from The Key to Eckankar about Jesus being an Eck
                  > master is consistent with a passage in the Eckankar Bible, the
                  > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One, where Paul wrote that Jesus was the
                  > Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Christians. (page 35 in
                  > the 1987 edition) It is generally accepted in Eckankar that the
                  > Mahanta consciousness appears to people through the form of the Living
                  > Eck Master. So one of these quotes states explicitly that Christ was
                  > an Eck master, and one implies he was.
                  > That Jesus studied under an Eck Master named Zadok is written in
                  > The Spiritual Notebook, 1971 edition, page 192. There Paul writes - -
                  > - <Zadok was living, at the time of his ECK Mastership, in the country
                  > of Judea, north of Jerusalem. His work was with a small group of
                  > followers who had broken with the Essenes. Zadok saw the man named
                  > Jesus, talked with him on several occasions, and knew his purpose in
                  > this world. He also knew that their missions did not cross with each
                  > other after Jesus left the ECK group, with whom he studied for some
                  > time under the great Zadok. The ECK Master gave Jesus the basic
                  > fundamentals of ECKANKAR, who used them in his own teachings.>
                  > And what about Jesus in Tibet? This comes from Letters to a Chela
                  > chapter 3 where Paul writes - - - <His father Joseph was an Aryan and
                  > his mother Jewish. Joseph was a member of the Essenes. His (Jesus)
                  > name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of Jesus until he
                  > was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
                  > Monastery in northern Tibet. (This is odd, because one is supposed to
                  > get a spiritual name in Eck only when he gets the Ninth initiation).
                  > This was the last place he studied before returning to the world to
                  > preach his message. He spent three years at the Monastery where he
                  > studied ECK and received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated
                  > anyone during his life on earth. He never had the power to do this.
                  > The fact that Jesus rose from the dead and visited among his
                  > followers, and spent 72 days teaching his people on earth is hardly
                  > anything more than what any good ECKist can do. (Whoa! Does Paul like
                  > to stretch the truth a little?) He will never return for he has been
                  > working on the fourth plane for all these centuries and is likely
                  > never to leave because this is where he has been assigned by the
                  > spiritual hierarchy for time unlimited.>
                  > When Paul leaves such a convoluted mess of writings on a specific
                  > subject (which he does frequently), what is one to conclude? In this
                  > case I have come up with four theories. I would be interested which
                  > theory you various readers believe to be the most probable. Or maybe
                  > someone can think up a better theory than any of them. Here they are.
                  > THEORY 1. Jesus is not now, nor has he ever been an Eck initiate
                  > anywhere outside of the imagination of Paul. Despite the quotes above,
                  > this case can actually be made within the belief system of Eckankar.
                  > How? If Jesus was an Eck Initiate under Zadok two thousand years ago,
                  > he would have (almost certainly) gone on to become an Eck Master by
                  > now. Paul and Harold tell us that once you get that second initiation
                  > there is no turning back – you are an Eckist until you reach
                  > mastership. Even if you try to quit you will only come back in another
                  > life to continue on. So if Jesus really got initiated by Fubbi Quantz,
                  > he should be an Eck master now.
                  > On the other hand, if Jesus was already an Eck Master in ancient
                  > times, as Paul has Rebazar telling us above, then he would still be
                  > one. In either case, he should be an Eck Master today. Yet everywhere
                  > else in the Eckankar writings, neither Paul nor Harold ever suggests
                  > or hints in any way that Jesus is an Eck Master. This would be a very
                  > odd silence if Jesus were in fact an Eck master, would it not?
                  > Therefore, despite the lip service Paul gave in places to Jesus being
                  > an Eck Master and / or an Eck initiate, there is no follow through to
                  > suggest he or Harold actually believe it. Ergo, Jesus has never been
                  > an Eck initiate.
                  > THEORY 2. Jesus studied first under Zadok for a time, then
                  > traveled to Tibet and studied under Fubbi Quantz for three years where
                  > he got his second initiation. After he left Tibet and returned to his
                  > public mission in Judea, he continued to get inner initiations from
                  > Fubbi or Zadok, achieving Eck mastership in that lifetime before he
                  > was killed. This would pull together the above quotes by Paul into one
                  > piece of a coherent narrative. But this coherence breaks down in the
                  > overall context of the Eckankar writings. It fails to explain why
                  > Jesus is so often portrayed by Paul and Harold as a Kal savior and
                  > lower order teacher. If Theory 2 is correct Jesus should be a strong
                  > Eck master figure in modern Eckankar. And he is not. So this theory
                  > has several very weak points.
                  > THEORY 3. The confusing and conflicting writings about Jesus are
                  > evidence that Paul was just a liar with a poor memory. I do not know
                  > if there is strong evidence that Paul had a weak memory. Maybe he did.
                  > There is certainly evidence he was a liar. Or if it rests easier on
                  > your ears, that he was a story teller.
                  > THEORY 4. The conflicting writings on Jesus are evidence that
                  > Paul simply shifted his position about Jesus for his own purposes,
                  > changing it from page to page, and from book to book, with a casual
                  > disregard for consistency. I think this fits in well with the Doug
                  > Marmon theory of Paul – that he likes to show readers all points
                  > of view about a subject without being picky about facts and
                  > consistency. Or put another way, if Theory 3 suggests Paul was a liar
                  > with a poor memory, Theory 4 eliminates the supposition that he had a
                  > poor memory, and just leaves him a liar.
                  > If we are to believe Doug, he lies for noble reasons. (Oops. I
                  > slipped into the Age of Criticism there. Let me get back to proper
                  > dialog.) What I meant is that if we are to believe Doug, Paul is not
                  > lying, he is showing us many points of view from many states of
                  > consciousness. On the other hand, if we are to side with the Eckankar
                  > critics, Paul lies to deceive. Whatever his motive for frequently
                  > shifting his position on Jesus, I think this theory has more strength
                  > than Theory 3 because it is unlikely that Paul would be forgetful
                  > about whether Jesus was or was not an Eck master.
                  > CONCLUSION. It looks to me like Theory 1 and Theory 4 in
                  > combination are the most probable. I would give them about a 75
                  > percent chance of being the true explanation. (I just made up that
                  > statistic. If you challenge me I will back away from it. <g>)
                  > Though I dealt with the subject of Jesus in this posting, I have
                  > found that the problem it illustrates is pandemic in the writings of
                  > Paul Twitchell. To borrow from a visual in Doug Marmons book, Paul
                  > created a sort of scarecrow out of patches of straw and odd bits of
                  > cloth and clothing. Doug was trying to say in his book that this is
                  > precisely what Paul did NOT do. But to me it is evident all over his
                  > writings that they are a patchwork of mismatched bits and pieces of
                  > ideas poorly quilted together in an effort to look like a unified
                  > belief system. Of course there is a certain overall feel to the
                  > teachings. No matter where he got his bits of cloth, he is still the
                  > quilt maker. He left his stamp by choosing what to leave in and what
                  > to leave out.
                  > **********************************
                  >
                  > From: jerre...@... (Joe)
                  > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
                  > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
                  > Date: 13 Dec 2001 21:16:31 -0800
                  >
                  >
                  > The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying to do with
                  > Eckankar...
                  >
                  > Having long considered these two questions in the context of the whole
                  > of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way
                  > that I'm not sure I can classify.
                  >
                  > Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say what
                  > Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter, or
                  > a con-artist. There's another element there very hard to define.
                  >
                  > But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other spiritual
                  > teachers, we are actually reading him:
                  >
                  > Talking about himself.
                  >
                  > For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
                  >
                  > "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied ECK and
                  > received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated anyone during
                  > his life on earth. He never had the power to do this."
                  >
                  > Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD, and received
                  > the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never granted permission
                  > by Singh or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe Paulji
                  > was speaking from his own insecurity here.
                  >
                  > We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the discourses
                  > when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as
                  > "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual goods like pots and
                  > pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda and
                  > Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji did, and
                  > hence his projected anger.
                  >
                  > What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We don't exactly
                  > know how he felt about his Christian upbringing. We do know, however,
                  > that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the Catholic
                  > Church but was rejected.
                  >
                  > I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident) Paulji did
                  > not have a comfortable relationship with the religion of his
                  > upbringing. I also think this accounts for what to me is the very
                  > worst and most deviant aspect of his eck writings: His dire warnings
                  > to those who join eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.
                  >
                  > Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from his unresolved
                  > issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is on tape
                  > asking Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays his
                  > Master"?
                  >
                  > So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way he felt about
                  > himself.
                  >
                  >
                  > **********************************
                  > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
                  > From: "Sharon2000" <brighttigr...@...>
                  > Date: 21 Dec 2001 01:17:57 GMT
                  > Organization: Eckankar Sucks
                  > Message-ID: <20011220201757.035$Qz@...>
                  > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar,alt.eckankar
                  >
                  > jerre...@... (Joe) wrote:
                  > > The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying to do with
                  > > Eckankar...
                  > >
                  > > Having long considered these two questions in the context of the
                  > whole
                  > > of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way
                  > > that I'm not sure I can classify.
                  > >
                  > > Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say what
                  > > Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter,
                  > or
                  > > a con-artist. There's another element there very hard to define.
                  > >
                  > > But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other spiritual
                  > > teachers, we are actually reading him:
                  > >
                  > > Talking about himself.
                  > >
                  > > For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
                  > >
                  > > "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied ECK and
                  > > received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated anyone during
                  > > his life on earth. He never had the power to do this."
                  > >
                  > > Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD, and
                  > received
                  > > the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never granted
                  > permission
                  > > by Singh or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe
                  > Paulji
                  > > was speaking from his own insecurity here.
                  > >
                  > > We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the discourses
                  > > when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as
                  > > "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual goods like pots and
                  > > pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda and
                  > > Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji did, and
                  > > hence his projected anger.
                  > >
                  > > What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We don't
                  > exactly
                  > > know how he felt about his Christian upbringing. We do know,
                  > however,
                  > > that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the Catholic
                  > > Church but was rejected.
                  > >
                  > > I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident) Paulji
                  > did
                  > > not have a comfortable relationship with the religion of his
                  > > upbringing. I also think this accounts for what to me is the very
                  > > worst and most deviant aspect of his eck writings: His dire
                  > warnings
                  > > to those who join eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.
                  > >
                  > > Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from his
                  > unresolved
                  > > issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is on
                  > tape
                  > > asking Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays his
                  > > Master"?
                  > >
                  > > So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way he felt about
                  > > himself.
                  >
                  >
                  > You made some *very* good observations here, Joe! So much of Twitch's
                  > "writings", well...all those years I was a member, I just didn't feel
                  > quite
                  > comfortable with him. It bothered me, of course. I knew my feelings
                  > weren't "properly ecky".
                  >
                  > Does anyone know what denomination Twitch was raised in? It
                  > definitely
                  > wasn't Catholic...the eckversion of Twitch's wanting to join
                  > Catholicism
                  > was that he was refused because he was divorced. That's not true...I
                  > checked. A divorce prior to becoming Catholic doesn't count. Twitch
                  > wanted to become Catholic because he was having an affair with a
                  > Catholic
                  > woman (ask Doug Marman about this one! <ggg> You won't get an honest
                  > answer, though.) and he wanted to marry her. And he was willing to
                  > be a
                  > phony & join the Catholic Church just to get a woman.
                  >
                  > Anyway...Twitch also wrote some *very* unflattering things about
                  > Jesus in
                  > Letters to a Chela, but I just popped over to Delphi and oh horrors,
                  > not
                  > all of that chapter is there! And there's no note that says "message
                  > truncated" with an option to click & see the whole thing...I have to
                  > go
                  > back over the whole site and check it out...but you know, I haven't
                  > looked
                  > at LC for awhile. Skimming here and there, well...Twitch is not only
                  > pushing his cultic recruiting, but also doing as much as possible to
                  > destroy any "positive" feelings about any other religions (which he
                  > admitted to wanting to destroy) and I think what he writes about Jesus
                  > shows this. He was deliberately trying to paint a *very* unpleasant
                  > picture of him!!! And isn't it sort of hilarious how in
                  > Twitch's "Holey
                  > Scriptures" he claimed to be born of a virgin? <giggle>
                  >
                  > Anyway...here's an excerpt I found at Google...Twitch on Jesus!
                  >
                  > From "Letters to a Chela" by Paul Twitchell:
                  >
                  > "Jesus is dead whether anyone believes this or not. He died some 2000
                  > years ago and has not been with this world since. This is the saddest
                  > aspect of Christian religious history, that he had to disappear to
                  > give way
                  > to a clerical, priestly image. Christianity as a historic religion
                  > was not
                  > founded by Jesus, but by an educated Jew named Paul, who was adopted
                  > by the
                  > mother church as St. Paul. However, Jesus is now the figurement of
                  > the
                  > traditional writings, which have been edited through the centuries by
                  > various writers mainly in the Catholic and Protestant churches."
                  >
                  > (However, Twitch claimed that St. Paul was a member of the secret
                  > order
                  > of the ECK Masters in his "secret discourses," Precepts of
                  > Eckankar, #
                  > 5....the early versions, that is. By the time *I* got this set of
                  > discourses, Klemp had edited it out. Klemp's done LOTS of editing
                  > in the
                  > cult's brief history.)
                  >
                  >
                  > "However, nothing new can be added about this man who made claims,
                  > according to his biographers, that he was the Son of Man and later as
                  > his
                  > biographers tried to establish as God who had manifested himself;
                  > note the
                  > word "himself," which is an expression of the lower worlds. The true
                  > God,
                  > the SUGMAD, is always designated as IT which has no gender.
                  > Therefore we
                  > see him as really a son of Kal Niranjan who is king of the lower
                  > worlds who
                  > expresses himself in the male gender..."
                  >
                  > ("...the Supreme Deity, the Sugmad Himself." Eckankar, the Secret
                  > Way,
                  > 1967. "He will not require that you love Him as a great
                  > soul..." "His
                  > love...He feeds me..." The Tiger's Fang, 1967)
                  >
                  >
                  > Those priests and clergy who preach the word of Jesus and the God of
                  > Christianity is thereby only speaking in the terms of institutional
                  > religion, that of the educated. They preach from the Christian
                  > Bible, as
                  > the authority for their case, based upon the words of their God.
                  > Therefore
                  > we find that this is a false teaching for the Bible is accepted as
                  > being
                  > the Guru, or the Master which gives the words which those Biblical
                  > writers
                  > have put into the mouth of a man who lived 2,000 years ago and never
                  > said
                  > anything close to what his followers claim down through the ages."
                  >
                  >
                  > ("When the sacred teachings of the ECK have been put into printed
                  > books,
                  > such as the SHARIYAT-KI-SUGMAD, all ECK chelas can go forth and by
                  > using
                  > it as reference can give all the holy scriptures of it to the world.
                  > There
                  > is none greater than this magnificent scripture and we as the chelas
                  > of
                  > ECK must use it as the source book, the living Bible of our beliefs
                  > and
                  > faith." Twitch, Illuminated Way Letters, page 216 )
                  >
                  >
                  > "It's said that Christians get to heaven simply with faith and an act
                  > of
                  > grace. This ws the basic teachings which Jesus taught becuse he knew
                  > that
                  > it would appeal to all people on a general basis. Also the denial of
                  > this
                  > world would bring poor and middle clss into his teachings."
                  >
                  > (Good grief, this is EXACTLY the strategy that twitch used when
                  > setting
                  > up his cult. Except...It's faith in the LEM, and initiation &
                  > continued
                  > membership in the cult. Twitch, and now Klemp, are quite open about
                  > telling their "missionaries" to be sure to tell people what will
                  > appeal to
                  > them...)
                  >
                  > "His father Joseph was an Aryan and his mother Jewish. Joseph was a
                  > member
                  > of the Essenes, a secret society which flourished in those times. The
                  > biblical story of the immaculate conception is not to be taken too
                  > seriously, that Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost and from a Virgin.
                  > This
                  > was invented to fit into the theology which at the time was
                  > formulated for
                  > saviour-gods."
                  >
                  > (tee-hee. Twitch in his pseudo-Bible: "The ECK enters into the
                  > womb of a
                  > virgin, the queen of heaven, who has submitted to the true spirit of
                  > the
                  > universe. The consciousness of the Mahanta state (the spiritual form
                  > of the
                  > human Eckankar leader) is planted as the seed, and carefully
                  > nurtured in
                  > the womb. When the embodiment of flesh is brought into this world, a
                  > man-
                  > child is born. It starts its unfoldment over a period of years until
                  > the
                  > state of perfection is reached, in adulthood. Then the chosen one
                  > learns
                  > that he is the Living ECK Master of his times." SKS 1, pg. 111-112,
                  > 2nd
                  > ed., 10th printing, 1987)
                  >
                  > ". . .His name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of Jesus
                  > until
                  > he was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
                  > Monastery
                  > in northern Tibet. This was the last place where he studied before
                  > returning to the world to preach his message. He had been in Egypt,
                  > Palestine, Persia, and India studying under various teachers and
                  > entering
                  > into the mystery schools to learn about them. He spent three years
                  > at the
                  > Katsupari Monastery where he studied ECK and received the second
                  > initiation. He believed then this was the moment to give his messge
                  > to the
                  > world...."
                  >
                  > (I'll have to check up on Fubbi. In The Tiger's Fang, Twitch says
                  > that
                  > Fubbi was the LEM in 10th century Persia...make up your mind,
                  > Twitch!!)
                  >
                  > "The dust, grime, and poverty of that age was appalling, and disease
                  > rampant...Jesus was a marked man long before Judas got any idea about
                  > betraying him.
                  >
                  > He was a small slender man, of dark complexion, and wore a long robe
                  > characteristic of his times. His hair was short because of the heat
                  > and
                  > his beard, like his hair, was brown, but short also. The insects and
                  > lice
                  > were too abundant to wear long hair and beards. He was about five
                  > feet,
                  > one inch tall, dark eyes and wore sandals most of the time because of
                  > the
                  > earth ws too hot to tread barefooted. His face was broad, and full
                  > jowled.
                  > The pictures which we see of him today are an artist's concept,
                  > painted by
                  > a German during the 16th century."
                  >
                  > (Hmmmm....just a thought...I seem to remember, Giotto painted some
                  > much
                  > earlier things...probably others did...maybe twitch is referring to
                  > the
                  > blue-eyes one you see in many churches...unimportant, anyway...)
                  >
                  > "Of course he wore a hood which kept the burning sun from cracking
                  > the skin
                  > of his scalp. The title Christ was given to him long after his
                  > death, the
                  > spiritual name Jesus was bestowed upon him by Fubbi Quantz, and his
                  > messge
                  > to the world was a simplified version of ECKANKAR, which was mangled
                  > by his
                  > followers and Paul the founder of Christianity. He never meant for
                  > his own
                  > teachings to go beyond his times because he realized that the ECK
                  > Masters
                  > had their own plans for the world's spiritual unfoldment. He knew
                  > that man
                  > had not even progressed to the stage of astral development, and was
                  > not
                  > ready for anything which went beyond this in his simple nature.
                  >
                  > Jesus was shrewd and the Romans watching him were foiled for three
                  > years;
                  > they had to wait until the proper time when one of his disciples
                  > showed a
                  > weakness. It turned out to be Judas who was the treasurer of his
                  > little
                  > band..."
                  >
                  > Later in Chapter 3 of LC:
                  >
                  > "Since Christianity is only an aspect of the ECK there is no need of
                  > viewing it or any other religion with awe. Therefore we must look
                  > upon
                  > each with a sympathetic view that every groups is respectively
                  > struggling
                  > to find the Godhead. Since every ECKist knows that the Godhead is
                  > that
                  > which is available only through the path of ECK then he must be warm,
                  > sympthetic, and helpful to those in religions, occultism and
                  > philosophies
                  > for they are all the subordinates of ECKANKAR..."
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  >
                  > Well...I'll have to check out LC at Delphi to make sure they're all
                  > complete...I think I posted them all here at a.r.e. first, I know
                  > I've got
                  > them all on the hard drive of a computer I don't have hooked up right
                  > now...
                  >
                  > Bye!
                  >
                  > Ho Ho Hugs!
                  >
                  > Sharon
                  >
                  > --
                  > FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:
                  >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ***************************************
                  > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar
                  > From: ran1...@... (Troll)
                  > Date: 21 Dec 2001 16:30:18 -0800
                  > Local: Fri, Dec 21 2001 8:30 pm
                  > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings Sharon and Merry Xmass !
                  > If memory serves, Dr.Lane discovered that Paul Twitchell was raised
                  > in
                  > a fundamentalist religion, the Church of Christ. Paul Iverlet,Titch's
                  > brother-in-law, were devout Christians. That Paul's Dad, John(I
                  > think), if he were still living would have beat the hell out of Pau
                  > Twitchell for the lies Paul Twitchell told about his family in
                  > Twitch's book,'In My Soul I Am Free'.
                  > I think one of the links at http://www.geocities.com/eckcult is where
                  > the account can be found.
                  > Troll
                  >
                  >
                  > *********************************************
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Marman also tried to justify Twitchell s plagiarisms, especially with regards to Julian Johnson s The Path of the Masters by saying, In other words, Paul
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 30, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    "Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms,
                    especially with regards to Julian Johnson's The Path
                    of the Masters by saying, "In other words, Paul cast
                    the material in the form of a dialogue with an ECK
                    Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better
                    way of portraying the truths he was trying to share... "

                    Anybody have a page number for that one?

                    This subject strikes at the heart of an issue I've
                    been looking at for over five years. Namely, is there
                    credible evidence that some of the Eck Masters are
                    "created fictions"? And are there any admissions
                    from "Eckankar" that this was/is the case?

                    A better way of portraying the truths? OK, I'll buy
                    that. Religions and spiritual groups have done this
                    sort of thing for centuries. It's nothing new. History
                    (recorded history) itself is full of "personalities" and
                    "people" created by the imagination(s) of others.

                    The question that has stuck with me was is: "Who
                    is going to write the fiction after the fiction-writer has
                    gone away? In other words, Who is going to be left
                    with that job? The leaders of religion?

                    If you ask me, this is precisely why religion(s) has
                    (& have) fallen to a position of disfavor among many
                    people in contemporary society. Not that there are
                    fictions - BUT THAT THERE ARE FICTIONS WHICH
                    RELIGIONS ARE NOT OWNING UP TO!

                    It is my opinion that people can feel decieved and
                    find it hard to trust religious leaders and clergy who
                    appear to be orchestrating a coverup - of the truth.

                    Was that an admission by Doug Marman that the
                    "Eck Masters" (some of them) were created fiction?
                    Doug Marman, a long-time member of Eckankar
                    who had worked with office staff, looked at some of
                    Paul Twitchell's "old files", corresponded with Gail
                    Twitchell & kept in contact with Patti Simpson?

                    That was a very curious quote to me. I have seen
                    others like it from Doug. My question is, why is not
                    Eckankar teaching and admitting the same kinds of
                    things as Doug? (Maybe they have, but in another
                    language. I'll have to look for it.)

                    I believe one of the reasons I've held to this issue
                    of "Eck Masters" identity (how much is fiction, how
                    much is not) is because I sense problems down the
                    road. History will be the witness to this.

                    Maybe it's just me, but it seems that people who
                    want to know the facts behind "Eckankar" history -
                    those to whom it matters - are being asked to do a
                    lot in the way of finding out the truth for themselves.
                    In spite of apparent contemporary dogma which can
                    easily skirt the issue when "official" religious dogma
                    is written by heads of church. My opinion, at least.

                    *********

                    ""In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                    of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                    simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                    truths he was trying to share... "

                    Doug knows this? Or, was that an educated guess
                    based on "records" he saw & people he spoke with?
                    In either case, I saw that as an historic "admission".

                    *********

                    I wonder. Instead of the LEM and Eckankar Inc.
                    doing the corrections to history - and potentially
                    exposing a coverup - has the job defaulted to the
                    "members" who have less to lose? Is this how it's
                    going to play out with religious dogma generally?
                    People go out and discover the truth and then the
                    church later comes in and says "Yeah. Yeah. So
                    it is."?

                    [I mean, wait until so many people know it and
                    become comforatable with it first - the truth -
                    before endorsing it yourself. That way you don't
                    have to face the mob. Or, there won't be any big
                    panic (like if the government admitted existence
                    of intelligent life on other planets).]

                    Reminds me about the Catholic Chuch & some
                    of it's changing dogma in light of modern scientific
                    discoveries. Apparently. even a church is capable
                    - faced with the overwhelming peer pressure from
                    people all over the world who know better - of
                    "shifting gears and telling the truth.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 9:00 am
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: help! seeking information.



                    Sharon, thanks for researching all that about Jesus as portrayed by

                    Twitchell and Klemp.



                    An old Russian proverb says, "With lies you may go ahead in the world,

                    but you can never go back."



                    Once Twitchell wrote his lies, he couldn't go back and change them, so

                    he just moved on and piled more lies on top of the old ones. It's the

                    reason why there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions

                    throughout the Eckankar writings.



                    Klemp chose not to confront the lies of his predecessor. So, he

                    continued piling more lies on top of Twitchell's old ones.



                    Doug Marman has been accused of being intellectually dishonest. It's

                    easy to see when he tries to cover up Twitchell's lies by saying,

                    "Paul is not lying, he is showing us many points of view from many

                    states of consciousness."



                    Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms, especially with

                    regards to Julian Johnson's The Path of the Masters by saying, "In

                    other words, Paul cast the material in the form of a dialogue with an

                    ECK Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better way of

                    portraying the truths he was trying to share... "



                    Twitchell lied for the sake of expediency so that he could quickly

                    create a cult with himself as its head. Klemp, and Marman continue the

                    lies because they are convenient and practical regardless of being

                    immoral. Mark Twain understood the nature of lies when he said, "A lie

                    can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its

                    shoes."



                    Regards

                    Liska



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon"

                    <brighttigress@...> wrote:

                    >

                    > > Hi all, just wondering if someone could help

                    > > me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar

                    > > relates to Christianity; how believers view each

                    > > other etc.

                    > >

                    > > Thanks,

                    > > Siani

                    >

                    >

                    > Here's some information I just found while going thru some old

                    > printouts. Hope it helps!!

                    >

                    > *************************************

                    > From: catlist@... (Catalyst)

                    > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar

                    > Subject: The Eck Master Jesus

                    > Date: 12 Dec 2001 21:27:35 -0800

                    >

                    > One of the puzzles Paul Twitchell and ECKANKAR have left us over
                    the

                    > years is how to relate to Jesus. Sometimes Jesus is dismissed as a

                    > mere Kal savior. At other times it is claimed he was an ECK
                    initiate.

                    > And in other places it is even written that he was an Eck Master.

                    > Harold says Jesus was his boyhood pal in ancient Judea. In one
                    place

                    > Paul says Jesus studied for several years under an Eck Master named

                    > Zadok among the Essenses in Judea. In another he says Jesus studied

                    > under the Eck Master Fubbi Quantz in Tibet for three years.

                    > Nowadays in ECKANKAR Jesus is just sort of out there
                    somewhere, a

                    > teacher but not an Eck Master – a teacher who is said to

                    > occasionally send his students to one of the Eck Masters because he

                    > himself can take them no further on their spiritual journey. What
                    is

                    > wrong with this picture?

                    > First a few quotes from Paul Twitchell about Jesus. In his
                    book

                    > The Key to ECKANKAR (1968 edition, page 42) Paul puts the following

                    > words into the mouth of Rebazar Tarzs - - - < I should tell you
                    at

                    > this point that Christ was one of the great ECK Masters, for he

                    > received his training with the Essenes. This mystical group of
                    masters

                    > was trained as Eck teachers, and acted as part of the mystery
                    school

                    > of wisdom for the purpose of spreading the truth of the Sugmad.>

                    > Though some people make a distinction between Christ (a state
                    of

                    > consciousness) and Jesus (a man), Paul is obviously writing here
                    about

                    > Jesus, because he is referring to a man who was trained by the

                    > Essenes.

                    > The quote from The Key to Eckankar about Jesus being an Eck

                    > master is consistent with a passage in the Eckankar Bible, the

                    > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One, where Paul wrote that Jesus was the

                    > Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Christians. (page 35 in

                    > the 1987 edition) It is generally accepted in Eckankar that the

                    > Mahanta consciousness appears to people through the form of the
                    Living

                    > Eck Master. So one of these quotes states explicitly that Christ
                    was

                    > an Eck master, and one implies he was.

                    > That Jesus studied under an Eck Master named Zadok is written
                    in

                    > The Spiritual Notebook, 1971 edition, page 192. There Paul writes
                    - -

                    > - <Zadok was living, at the time of his ECK Mastership, in the
                    country

                    > of Judea, north of Jerusalem. His work was with a small group of

                    > followers who had broken with the Essenes. Zadok saw the man named

                    > Jesus, talked with him on several occasions, and knew his purpose
                    in

                    > this world. He also knew that their missions did not cross with
                    each

                    > other after Jesus left the ECK group, with whom he studied for some

                    > time under the great Zadok. The ECK Master gave Jesus the basic

                    > fundamentals of ECKANKAR, who used them in his own teachings.>

                    > And what about Jesus in Tibet? This comes from Letters to a
                    Chela

                    > chapter 3 where Paul writes - - - <His father Joseph was an
                    Aryan and

                    > his mother Jewish. Joseph was a member of the Essenes. His (Jesus)

                    > name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of Jesus until he

                    > was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari

                    > Monastery in northern Tibet. (This is odd, because one is supposed
                    to

                    > get a spiritual name in Eck only when he gets the Ninth
                    initiation).

                    > This was the last place he studied before returning to the world to

                    > preach his message. He spent three years at the Monastery where he

                    > studied ECK and received the second initiation. Jesus never
                    initiated

                    > anyone during his life on earth. He never had the power to do this.

                    > The fact that Jesus rose from the dead and visited among his

                    > followers, and spent 72 days teaching his people on earth is hardly

                    > anything more than what any good ECKist can do. (Whoa! Does Paul
                    like

                    > to stretch the truth a little?) He will never return for he has
                    been

                    > working on the fourth plane for all these centuries and is likely

                    > never to leave because this is where he has been assigned by the

                    > spiritual hierarchy for time unlimited.>

                    > When Paul leaves such a convoluted mess of writings on a
                    specific

                    > subject (which he does frequently), what is one to conclude? In
                    this

                    > case I have come up with four theories. I would be interested which

                    > theory you various readers believe to be the most probable. Or
                    maybe

                    > someone can think up a better theory than any of them. Here they
                    are.

                    > THEORY 1. Jesus is not now, nor has he ever been an Eck
                    initiate

                    > anywhere outside of the imagination of Paul. Despite the quotes
                    above,

                    > this case can actually be made within the belief system of
                    Eckankar.

                    > How? If Jesus was an Eck Initiate under Zadok two thousand years
                    ago,

                    > he would have (almost certainly) gone on to become an Eck Master by

                    > now. Paul and Harold tell us that once you get that second
                    initiation

                    > there is no turning back – you are an Eckist until you reach

                    > mastership. Even if you try to quit you will only come back in
                    another

                    > life to continue on. So if Jesus really got initiated by Fubbi
                    Quantz,

                    > he should be an Eck master now.

                    > On the other hand, if Jesus was already an Eck Master in
                    ancient

                    > times, as Paul has Rebazar telling us above, then he would still be

                    > one. In either case, he should be an Eck Master today. Yet
                    everywhere

                    > else in the Eckankar writings, neither Paul nor Harold ever
                    suggests

                    > or hints in any way that Jesus is an Eck Master. This would be a
                    very

                    > odd silence if Jesus were in fact an Eck master, would it not?

                    > Therefore, despite the lip service Paul gave in places to Jesus
                    being

                    > an Eck Master and / or an Eck initiate, there is no follow through
                    to

                    > suggest he or Harold actually believe it. Ergo, Jesus has never
                    been

                    > an Eck initiate.

                    > THEORY 2. Jesus studied first under Zadok for a time, then

                    > traveled to Tibet and studied under Fubbi Quantz for three years
                    where

                    > he got his second initiation. After he left Tibet and returned to
                    his

                    > public mission in Judea, he continued to get inner initiations from

                    > Fubbi or Zadok, achieving Eck mastership in that lifetime before he

                    > was killed. This would pull together the above quotes by Paul into
                    one

                    > piece of a coherent narrative. But this coherence breaks down in
                    the

                    > overall context of the Eckankar writings. It fails to explain why

                    > Jesus is so often portrayed by Paul and Harold as a Kal savior and

                    > lower order teacher. If Theory 2 is correct Jesus should be a
                    strong

                    > Eck master figure in modern Eckankar. And he is not. So this theory

                    > has several very weak points.

                    > THEORY 3. The confusing and conflicting writings about Jesus
                    are

                    > evidence that Paul was just a liar with a poor memory. I do not
                    know

                    > if there is strong evidence that Paul had a weak memory. Maybe he
                    did.

                    > There is certainly evidence he was a liar. Or if it rests easier on

                    > your ears, that he was a story teller.

                    > THEORY 4. The conflicting writings on Jesus are evidence that

                    > Paul simply shifted his position about Jesus for his own purposes,

                    > changing it from page to page, and from book to book, with a casual

                    > disregard for consistency. I think this fits in well with the Doug

                    > Marmon theory of Paul – that he likes to show readers all
                    points

                    > of view about a subject without being picky about facts and

                    > consistency. Or put another way, if Theory 3 suggests Paul was a
                    liar

                    > with a poor memory, Theory 4 eliminates the supposition that he
                    had a

                    > poor memory, and just leaves him a liar.

                    > If we are to believe Doug, he lies for noble reasons. (Oops. I

                    > slipped into the Age of Criticism there. Let me get back to proper

                    > dialog.) What I meant is that if we are to believe Doug, Paul is
                    not

                    > lying, he is showing us many points of view from many states of

                    > consciousness. On the other hand, if we are to side with the
                    Eckankar

                    > critics, Paul lies to deceive. Whatever his motive for frequently

                    > shifting his position on Jesus, I think this theory has more
                    strength

                    > than Theory 3 because it is unlikely that Paul would be forgetful

                    > about whether Jesus was or was not an Eck master.

                    > CONCLUSION. It looks to me like Theory 1 and Theory 4 in

                    > combination are the most probable. I would give them about a 75

                    > percent chance of being the true explanation. (I just made up that

                    > statistic. If you challenge me I will back away from it. <g>)

                    > Though I dealt with the subject of Jesus in this posting, I
                    have

                    > found that the problem it illustrates is pandemic in the writings
                    of

                    > Paul Twitchell. To borrow from a visual in Doug Marmons book, Paul

                    > created a sort of scarecrow out of patches of straw and odd bits of

                    > cloth and clothing. Doug was trying to say in his book that this is

                    > precisely what Paul did NOT do. But to me it is evident all over
                    his

                    > writings that they are a patchwork of mismatched bits and pieces of

                    > ideas poorly quilted together in an effort to look like a unified

                    > belief system. Of course there is a certain overall feel to the

                    > teachings. No matter where he got his bits of cloth, he is still
                    the

                    > quilt maker. He left his stamp by choosing what to leave in and
                    what

                    > to leave out.

                    > **********************************

                    >

                    > From: jerre...@... (Joe)

                    > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar

                    > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus

                    > Date: 13 Dec 2001 21:16:31 -0800

                    >

                    >

                    > The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying to do with

                    > Eckankar...

                    >

                    > Having long considered these two questions in the context of the
                    whole

                    > of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way

                    > that I'm not sure I can classify.

                    >

                    > Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say what

                    > Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter,
                    or

                    > a con-artist. There's another element there very hard to define.

                    >

                    > But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other spiritual

                    > teachers, we are actually reading him:

                    >

                    > Talking about himself.

                    >

                    > For example, here he is refering to Jesus:

                    >

                    > "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied ECK and

                    > received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated anyone during

                    > his life on earth. He never had the power to do this."

                    >

                    > Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD, and
                    received

                    > the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never granted
                    permission

                    > by Singh or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe
                    Paulji

                    > was speaking from his own insecurity here.

                    >

                    > We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the
                    discourses

                    > when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as

                    > "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual goods like pots and

                    > pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda and

                    > Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji did, and

                    > hence his projected anger.

                    >

                    > What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We don't
                    exactly

                    > know how he felt about his Christian upbringing. We do know,
                    however,

                    > that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the Catholic

                    > Church but was rejected.

                    >

                    > I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident) Paulji
                    did

                    > not have a comfortable relationship with the religion of his

                    > upbringing. I also think this accounts for what to me is the very

                    > worst and most deviant aspect of his eck writings: His dire
                    warnings

                    > to those who join eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.

                    >

                    > Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from his
                    unresolved

                    > issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is on
                    tape

                    > asking Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays his

                    > Master"?

                    >

                    > So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way he felt about

                    > himself.

                    >

                    >

                    > **********************************

                    > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus

                    > From: "Sharon2000" <brighttigr...@...>

                    > Date: 21 Dec 2001 01:17:57 GMT

                    > Organization: Eckankar Sucks

                    > Message-ID: <20011220201757.035$Qz@...>

                    > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar,alt.eckankar

                    >

                    > jerre...@... (Joe) wrote:

                    > > The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying to do
                    with

                    > > Eckankar...

                    > >

                    > > Having long considered these two questions in the context of
                    the

                    > whole

                    > > of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in
                    a way

                    > > that I'm not sure I can classify.

                    > >

                    > > Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say
                    what

                    > > Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy
                    promoter,

                    > or

                    > > a con-artist. There's another element there very hard to
                    define.

                    > >

                    > > But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other
                    spiritual

                    > > teachers, we are actually reading him:

                    > >

                    > > Talking about himself.

                    > >

                    > > For example, here he is refering to Jesus:

                    > >

                    > > "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied ECK
                    and

                    > > received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated anyone
                    during

                    > > his life on earth. He never had the power to do this."

                    > >

                    > > Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD, and

                    > received

                    > > the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never granted

                    > permission

                    > > by Singh or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I
                    believe

                    > Paulji

                    > > was speaking from his own insecurity here.

                    > >

                    > > We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the
                    discourses

                    > > when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as

                    > > "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual goods like
                    pots and

                    > > pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda
                    and

                    > > Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji did,
                    and

                    > > hence his projected anger.

                    > >

                    > > What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We
                    don't

                    > exactly

                    > > know how he felt about his Christian upbringing. We do know,

                    > however,

                    > > that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the
                    Catholic

                    > > Church but was rejected.

                    > >

                    > > I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident)
                    Paulji

                    > did

                    > > not have a comfortable relationship with the religion of his

                    > > upbringing. I also think this accounts for what to me is the
                    very

                    > > worst and most deviant aspect of his eck writings: His dire

                    > warnings

                    > > to those who join eckankar but decided to leave after
                    initiation.

                    > >

                    > > Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from his

                    > unresolved

                    > > issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is
                    on

                    > tape

                    > > asking Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays his

                    > > Master"?

                    > >

                    > > So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way he felt
                    about

                    > > himself.

                    >

                    >

                    > You made some *very* good observations here, Joe! So much of
                    Twitch's

                    > "writings", well...all those years I was a member, I just didn't
                    feel

                    > quite

                    > comfortable with him. It bothered me, of course. I knew my
                    feelings

                    > weren't "properly ecky".

                    >

                    > Does anyone know what denomination Twitch was raised in? It

                    > definitely

                    > wasn't Catholic...the eckversion of Twitch's wanting to join

                    > Catholicism

                    > was that he was refused because he was divorced. That's not
                    true...I

                    > checked. A divorce prior to becoming Catholic doesn't count.
                    Twitch

                    > wanted to become Catholic because he was having an affair with a

                    > Catholic

                    > woman (ask Doug Marman about this one! <ggg> You won't get
                    an honest

                    > answer, though.) and he wanted to marry her. And he was willing
                    to

                    > be a

                    > phony & join the Catholic Church just to get a woman.

                    >

                    > Anyway...Twitch also wrote some *very* unflattering things about

                    > Jesus in

                    > Letters to a Chela, but I just popped over to Delphi and oh
                    horrors,

                    > not

                    > all of that chapter is there! And there's no note that says
                    "message

                    > truncated" with an option to click & see the whole thing...I have
                    to

                    > go

                    > back over the whole site and check it out...but you know, I
                    haven't

                    > looked

                    > at LC for awhile. Skimming here and there, well...Twitch is not
                    only

                    > pushing his cultic recruiting, but also doing as much as possible
                    to

                    > destroy any "positive" feelings about any other religions (which he

                    > admitted to wanting to destroy) and I think what he writes about
                    Jesus

                    > shows this. He was deliberately trying to paint a *very*
                    unpleasant

                    > picture of him!!! And isn't it sort of hilarious how in

                    > Twitch's "Holey

                    > Scriptures" he claimed to be born of a virgin? <giggle>

                    >

                    > Anyway...here's an excerpt I found at Google...Twitch on Jesus!

                    >

                    > From "Letters to a Chela" by Paul Twitchell:

                    >

                    > "Jesus is dead whether anyone believes this or not. He died some
                    2000

                    > years ago and has not been with this world since. This is the
                    saddest

                    > aspect of Christian religious history, that he had to disappear to

                    > give way

                    > to a clerical, priestly image. Christianity as a historic religion

                    > was not

                    > founded by Jesus, but by an educated Jew named Paul, who was
                    adopted

                    > by the

                    > mother church as St. Paul. However, Jesus is now the figurement
                    of

                    > the

                    > traditional writings, which have been edited through the centuries
                    by

                    > various writers mainly in the Catholic and Protestant churches."

                    >

                    > (However, Twitch claimed that St. Paul was a member of the
                    secret

                    > order

                    > of the ECK Masters in his "secret discourses," Precepts of

                    > Eckankar, #

                    > 5....the early versions, that is. By the time *I* got this set of

                    > discourses, Klemp had edited it out. Klemp's done LOTS of
                    editing

                    > in the

                    > cult's brief history.)

                    >

                    >

                    > "However, nothing new can be added about this man who made claims,

                    > according to his biographers, that he was the Son of Man and later
                    as

                    > his

                    > biographers tried to establish as God who had manifested himself;

                    > note the

                    > word "himself," which is an expression of the lower worlds. The
                    true

                    > God,

                    > the SUGMAD, is always designated as IT which has no gender.

                    > Therefore we

                    > see him as really a son of Kal Niranjan who is king of the lower

                    > worlds who

                    > expresses himself in the male gender..."

                    >

                    > ("...the Supreme Deity, the Sugmad Himself." Eckankar, the
                    Secret

                    > Way,

                    > 1967. "He will not require that you love Him as a great

                    > soul..." "His

                    > love...He feeds me..." The Tiger's Fang, 1967)

                    >

                    >

                    > Those priests and clergy who preach the word of Jesus and the God
                    of

                    > Christianity is thereby only speaking in the terms of institutional

                    > religion, that of the educated. They preach from the Christian

                    > Bible, as

                    > the authority for their case, based upon the words of their God.

                    > Therefore

                    > we find that this is a false teaching for the Bible is accepted as

                    > being

                    > the Guru, or the Master which gives the words which those Biblical

                    > writers

                    > have put into the mouth of a man who lived 2,000 years ago and
                    never

                    > said

                    > anything close to what his followers claim down through the ages."

                    >

                    >

                    > ("When the sacred teachings of the ECK have been put into
                    printed

                    > books,

                    > such as the SHARIYAT-KI-SUGMAD, all ECK chelas can go forth and by

                    > using

                    > it as reference can give all the holy scriptures of it to the
                    world.

                    > There

                    > is none greater than this magnificent scripture and we as the
                    chelas

                    > of

                    > ECK must use it as the source book, the living Bible of our
                    beliefs

                    > and

                    > faith." Twitch, Illuminated Way Letters, page 216 )

                    >

                    >

                    > "It's said that Christians get to heaven simply with faith and an
                    act

                    > of

                    > grace. This ws the basic teachings which Jesus taught becuse he
                    knew

                    > that

                    > it would appeal to all people on a general basis. Also the denial
                    of

                    > this

                    > world would bring poor and middle clss into his teachings."

                    >

                    > (Good grief, this is EXACTLY the strategy that twitch used when

                    > setting

                    > up his cult. Except...It's faith in the LEM, and initiation &

                    > continued

                    > membership in the cult. Twitch, and now Klemp, are quite open
                    about

                    > telling their "missionaries" to be sure to tell people what will

                    > appeal to

                    > them...)

                    >

                    > "His father Joseph was an Aryan and his mother Jewish. Joseph was
                    a

                    > member

                    > of the Essenes, a secret society which flourished in those times.
                    The

                    > biblical story of the immaculate conception is not to be taken too

                    > seriously, that Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost and from a
                    Virgin.

                    > This

                    > was invented to fit into the theology which at the time was

                    > formulated for

                    > saviour-gods."

                    >

                    > (tee-hee. Twitch in his pseudo-Bible: "The ECK enters into the

                    > womb of a

                    > virgin, the queen of heaven, who has submitted to the true spirit
                    of

                    > the

                    > universe. The consciousness of the Mahanta state (the spiritual
                    form

                    > of the

                    > human Eckankar leader) is planted as the seed, and carefully

                    > nurtured in

                    > the womb. When the embodiment of flesh is brought into this
                    world, a

                    > man-

                    > child is born. It starts its unfoldment over a period of years
                    until

                    > the

                    > state of perfection is reached, in adulthood. Then the chosen one

                    > learns

                    > that he is the Living ECK Master of his times." SKS 1, pg.
                    111-112,

                    > 2nd

                    > ed., 10th printing, 1987)

                    >

                    > ". . .His name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of
                    Jesus

                    > until

                    > he was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari

                    > Monastery

                    > in northern Tibet. This was the last place where he studied before

                    > returning to the world to preach his message. He had been in
                    Egypt,

                    > Palestine, Persia, and India studying under various teachers and

                    > entering

                    > into the mystery schools to learn about them. He spent three
                    years

                    > at the

                    > Katsupari Monastery where he studied ECK and received the second

                    > initiation. He believed then this was the moment to give his
                    messge

                    > to the

                    > world...."

                    >

                    > (I'll have to check up on Fubbi. In The Tiger's Fang, Twitch
                    says

                    > that

                    > Fubbi was the LEM in 10th century Persia...make up your mind,

                    > Twitch!!)

                    >

                    > "The dust, grime, and poverty of that age was appalling, and
                    disease

                    > rampant...Jesus was a marked man long before Judas got any idea
                    about

                    > betraying him.

                    >

                    > He was a small slender man, of dark complexion, and wore a long
                    robe

                    > characteristic of his times. His hair was short because of the
                    heat

                    > and

                    > his beard, like his hair, was brown, but short also. The insects
                    and

                    > lice

                    > were too abundant to wear long hair and beards. He was about five

                    > feet,

                    > one inch tall, dark eyes and wore sandals most of the time because
                    of

                    > the

                    > earth ws too hot to tread barefooted. His face was broad, and
                    full

                    > jowled.

                    > The pictures which we see of him today are an artist's concept,

                    > painted by

                    > a German during the 16th century."

                    >

                    > (Hmmmm....just a thought...I seem to remember, Giotto painted some

                    > much

                    > earlier things...probably others did...maybe twitch is referring
                    to

                    > the

                    > blue-eyes one you see in many churches...unimportant, anyway...)

                    >

                    > "Of course he wore a hood which kept the burning sun from cracking

                    > the skin

                    > of his scalp. The title Christ was given to him long after his

                    > death, the

                    > spiritual name Jesus was bestowed upon him by Fubbi Quantz, and
                    his

                    > messge

                    > to the world was a simplified version of ECKANKAR, which was
                    mangled

                    > by his

                    > followers and Paul the founder of Christianity. He never meant
                    for

                    > his own

                    > teachings to go beyond his times because he realized that the ECK

                    > Masters

                    > had their own plans for the world's spiritual unfoldment. He knew

                    > that man

                    > had not even progressed to the stage of astral development, and
                    was

                    > not

                    > ready for anything which went beyond this in his simple nature.

                    >

                    > Jesus was shrewd and the Romans watching him were foiled for three

                    > years;

                    > they had to wait until the proper time when one of his disciples

                    > showed a

                    > weakness. It turned out to be Judas who was the treasurer of his

                    > little

                    > band..."

                    >

                    > Later in Chapter 3 of LC:

                    >

                    > "Since Christianity is only an aspect of the ECK there is no need
                    of

                    > viewing it or any other religion with awe. Therefore we must look

                    > upon

                    > each with a sympathetic view that every groups is respectively

                    > struggling

                    > to find the Godhead. Since every ECKist knows that the Godhead is

                    > that

                    > which is available only through the path of ECK then he must be
                    warm,

                    > sympthetic, and helpful to those in religions, occultism and

                    > philosophies

                    > for they are all the subordinates of ECKANKAR..."

                    >

                    > __________________________________

                    >

                    > Well...I'll have to check out LC at Delphi to make sure they're all

                    > complete...I think I posted them all here at a.r.e. first, I know

                    > I've got

                    > them all on the hard drive of a computer I don't have hooked up
                    right

                    > now...

                    >

                    > Bye!

                    >

                    > Ho Ho Hugs!

                    >

                    > Sharon

                    >

                    > --

                    > FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:

                    >

                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ***************************************

                    > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar

                    > From: ran1...@... (Troll)

                    > Date: 21 Dec 2001 16:30:18 -0800

                    > Local: Fri, Dec 21 2001 8:30 pm

                    > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus

                    >

                    >

                    > Greetings Sharon and Merry Xmass !

                    > If memory serves, Dr.Lane discovered that Paul Twitchell was
                    raised

                    > in

                    > a fundamentalist religion, the Church of Christ. Paul
                    Iverlet,Titch's

                    > brother-in-law, were devout Christians. That Paul's Dad, John(I

                    > think), if he were still living would have beat the hell out of
                    Pau

                    > Twitchell for the lies Paul Twitchell told about his family in

                    > Twitch's book,'In My Soul I Am Free'.

                    > I think one of the links at http://www.geocities.com/eckcult is
                    where

                    > the account can be found.

                    > Troll

                    >

                    >

                    > *********************************************

                    >
                  • drubezarne
                    Etznab, here you go... http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm As usual Doug gives us the long-winded answer and manages to muddy the truth in a huge
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 30, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Etznab, here you go...

                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

                      As usual Doug gives us the long-winded answer and manages to muddy the
                      truth in a huge pile of words.

                      Etznab, the biggest proof that shows the myth of Eck Masters are the
                      plagiarized works found in the Links section. In them, you can read
                      the original versions written by credible authors whose exact words
                      where stolen and transposed as the spoken words of Paul's Eck Masters
                      such as Rebazar Tarzs. The funny thing is that the original works are
                      so much better than Paul Twitchell's plagiarized version. Doug Marman
                      is full of it when he says Paul's version is better.

                      Regards
                      Liska

                      Regar
                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > "Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms,
                      > especially with regards to Julian Johnson's The Path
                      > of the Masters by saying, "In other words, Paul cast
                      > the material in the form of a dialogue with an ECK
                      > Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better
                      > way of portraying the truths he was trying to share... "
                      >
                      > Anybody have a page number for that one?
                      >
                      > This subject strikes at the heart of an issue I've
                      > been looking at for over five years. Namely, is there
                      > credible evidence that some of the Eck Masters are
                      > "created fictions"? And are there any admissions
                      > from "Eckankar" that this was/is the case?
                      >
                      > A better way of portraying the truths? OK, I'll buy
                      > that. Religions and spiritual groups have done this
                      > sort of thing for centuries. It's nothing new. History
                      > (recorded history) itself is full of "personalities" and
                      > "people" created by the imagination(s) of others.
                      >
                      > The question that has stuck with me was is: "Who
                      > is going to write the fiction after the fiction-writer has
                      > gone away? In other words, Who is going to be left
                      > with that job? The leaders of religion?
                      >
                      > If you ask me, this is precisely why religion(s) has
                      > (& have) fallen to a position of disfavor among many
                      > people in contemporary society. Not that there are
                      > fictions - BUT THAT THERE ARE FICTIONS WHICH
                      > RELIGIONS ARE NOT OWNING UP TO!
                      >
                      > It is my opinion that people can feel decieved and
                      > find it hard to trust religious leaders and clergy who
                      > appear to be orchestrating a coverup - of the truth.
                      >
                      > Was that an admission by Doug Marman that the
                      > "Eck Masters" (some of them) were created fiction?
                      > Doug Marman, a long-time member of Eckankar
                      > who had worked with office staff, looked at some of
                      > Paul Twitchell's "old files", corresponded with Gail
                      > Twitchell & kept in contact with Patti Simpson?
                      >
                      > That was a very curious quote to me. I have seen
                      > others like it from Doug. My question is, why is not
                      > Eckankar teaching and admitting the same kinds of
                      > things as Doug? (Maybe they have, but in another
                      > language. I'll have to look for it.)
                      >
                      > I believe one of the reasons I've held to this issue
                      > of "Eck Masters" identity (how much is fiction, how
                      > much is not) is because I sense problems down the
                      > road. History will be the witness to this.
                      >
                      > Maybe it's just me, but it seems that people who
                      > want to know the facts behind "Eckankar" history -
                      > those to whom it matters - are being asked to do a
                      > lot in the way of finding out the truth for themselves.
                      > In spite of apparent contemporary dogma which can
                      > easily skirt the issue when "official" religious dogma
                      > is written by heads of church. My opinion, at least.
                      >
                      > *********
                      >
                      > ""In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                      > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                      > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                      > truths he was trying to share... "
                      >
                      > Doug knows this? Or, was that an educated guess
                      > based on "records" he saw & people he spoke with?
                      > In either case, I saw that as an historic "admission".
                      >
                      > *********
                      >
                      > I wonder. Instead of the LEM and Eckankar Inc.
                      > doing the corrections to history - and potentially
                      > exposing a coverup - has the job defaulted to the
                      > "members" who have less to lose? Is this how it's
                      > going to play out with religious dogma generally?
                      > People go out and discover the truth and then the
                      > church later comes in and says "Yeah. Yeah. So
                      > it is."?
                      >
                      > [I mean, wait until so many people know it and
                      > become comforatable with it first - the truth -
                      > before endorsing it yourself. That way you don't
                      > have to face the mob. Or, there won't be any big
                      > panic (like if the government admitted existence
                      > of intelligent life on other planets).]
                      >
                      > Reminds me about the Catholic Chuch & some
                      > of it's changing dogma in light of modern scientific
                      > discoveries. Apparently. even a church is capable
                      > - faced with the overwhelming peer pressure from
                      > people all over the world who know better - of
                      > "shifting gears and telling the truth.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 9:00 am
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: help! seeking information.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sharon, thanks for researching all that about Jesus as portrayed by
                      >
                      > Twitchell and Klemp.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > An old Russian proverb says, "With lies you may go ahead in the world,
                      >
                      > but you can never go back."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Once Twitchell wrote his lies, he couldn't go back and change them, so
                      >
                      > he just moved on and piled more lies on top of the old ones. It's the
                      >
                      > reason why there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions
                      >
                      > throughout the Eckankar writings.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Klemp chose not to confront the lies of his predecessor. So, he
                      >
                      > continued piling more lies on top of Twitchell's old ones.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Doug Marman has been accused of being intellectually dishonest. It's
                      >
                      > easy to see when he tries to cover up Twitchell's lies by saying,
                      >
                      > "Paul is not lying, he is showing us many points of view from many
                      >
                      > states of consciousness."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms, especially with
                      >
                      > regards to Julian Johnson's The Path of the Masters by saying, "In
                      >
                      > other words, Paul cast the material in the form of a dialogue with an
                      >
                      > ECK Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better way of
                      >
                      > portraying the truths he was trying to share... "
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Twitchell lied for the sake of expediency so that he could quickly
                      >
                      > create a cult with himself as its head. Klemp, and Marman continue the
                      >
                      > lies because they are convenient and practical regardless of being
                      >
                      > immoral. Mark Twain understood the nature of lies when he said, "A lie
                      >
                      > can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its
                      >
                      > shoes."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Liska
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon"
                      >
                      > brighttigress@ wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Hi all, just wondering if someone could help
                      >
                      > > > me out. I'm doing a report on how Eckankar
                      >
                      > > > relates to Christianity; how believers view each
                      >
                      > > > other etc.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > Thanks,
                      >
                      > > > Siani
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Here's some information I just found while going thru some old
                      >
                      > > printouts. Hope it helps!!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > *************************************
                      >
                      > > From: catlist@ (Catalyst)
                      >
                      > > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
                      >
                      > > Subject: The Eck Master Jesus
                      >
                      > > Date: 12 Dec 2001 21:27:35 -0800
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > One of the puzzles Paul Twitchell and ECKANKAR have left us over
                      > the
                      >
                      > > years is how to relate to Jesus. Sometimes Jesus is dismissed as a
                      >
                      > > mere Kal savior. At other times it is claimed he was an ECK
                      > initiate.
                      >
                      > > And in other places it is even written that he was an Eck Master.
                      >
                      > > Harold says Jesus was his boyhood pal in ancient Judea. In one
                      > place
                      >
                      > > Paul says Jesus studied for several years under an Eck Master named
                      >
                      > > Zadok among the Essenses in Judea. In another he says Jesus studied
                      >
                      > > under the Eck Master Fubbi Quantz in Tibet for three years.
                      >
                      > > Nowadays in ECKANKAR Jesus is just sort of out there
                      > somewhere, a
                      >
                      > > teacher but not an Eck Master – a teacher who is said to
                      >
                      > > occasionally send his students to one of the Eck Masters because he
                      >
                      > > himself can take them no further on their spiritual journey. What
                      > is
                      >
                      > > wrong with this picture?
                      >
                      > > First a few quotes from Paul Twitchell about Jesus. In his
                      > book
                      >
                      > > The Key to ECKANKAR (1968 edition, page 42) Paul puts the following
                      >
                      > > words into the mouth of Rebazar Tarzs - - - < I should tell you
                      > at
                      >
                      > > this point that Christ was one of the great ECK Masters, for he
                      >
                      > > received his training with the Essenes. This mystical group of
                      > masters
                      >
                      > > was trained as Eck teachers, and acted as part of the mystery
                      > school
                      >
                      > > of wisdom for the purpose of spreading the truth of the Sugmad.>
                      >
                      > > Though some people make a distinction between Christ (a state
                      > of
                      >
                      > > consciousness) and Jesus (a man), Paul is obviously writing here
                      > about
                      >
                      > > Jesus, because he is referring to a man who was trained by the
                      >
                      > > Essenes.
                      >
                      > > The quote from The Key to Eckankar about Jesus being an Eck
                      >
                      > > master is consistent with a passage in the Eckankar Bible, the
                      >
                      > > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One, where Paul wrote that Jesus was the
                      >
                      > > Mahanta Consciousness as it appeared to the Christians. (page 35 in
                      >
                      > > the 1987 edition) It is generally accepted in Eckankar that the
                      >
                      > > Mahanta consciousness appears to people through the form of the
                      > Living
                      >
                      > > Eck Master. So one of these quotes states explicitly that Christ
                      > was
                      >
                      > > an Eck master, and one implies he was.
                      >
                      > > That Jesus studied under an Eck Master named Zadok is written
                      > in
                      >
                      > > The Spiritual Notebook, 1971 edition, page 192. There Paul writes
                      > - -
                      >
                      > > - <Zadok was living, at the time of his ECK Mastership, in the
                      > country
                      >
                      > > of Judea, north of Jerusalem. His work was with a small group of
                      >
                      > > followers who had broken with the Essenes. Zadok saw the man named
                      >
                      > > Jesus, talked with him on several occasions, and knew his purpose
                      > in
                      >
                      > > this world. He also knew that their missions did not cross with
                      > each
                      >
                      > > other after Jesus left the ECK group, with whom he studied for some
                      >
                      > > time under the great Zadok. The ECK Master gave Jesus the basic
                      >
                      > > fundamentals of ECKANKAR, who used them in his own teachings.>
                      >
                      > > And what about Jesus in Tibet? This comes from Letters to a
                      > Chela
                      >
                      > > chapter 3 where Paul writes - - - <His father Joseph was an
                      > Aryan and
                      >
                      > > his mother Jewish. Joseph was a member of the Essenes. His (Jesus)
                      >
                      > > name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of Jesus until he
                      >
                      > > was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
                      >
                      > > Monastery in northern Tibet. (This is odd, because one is supposed
                      > to
                      >
                      > > get a spiritual name in Eck only when he gets the Ninth
                      > initiation).
                      >
                      > > This was the last place he studied before returning to the world to
                      >
                      > > preach his message. He spent three years at the Monastery where he
                      >
                      > > studied ECK and received the second initiation. Jesus never
                      > initiated
                      >
                      > > anyone during his life on earth. He never had the power to do this.
                      >
                      > > The fact that Jesus rose from the dead and visited among his
                      >
                      > > followers, and spent 72 days teaching his people on earth is hardly
                      >
                      > > anything more than what any good ECKist can do. (Whoa! Does Paul
                      > like
                      >
                      > > to stretch the truth a little?) He will never return for he has
                      > been
                      >
                      > > working on the fourth plane for all these centuries and is likely
                      >
                      > > never to leave because this is where he has been assigned by the
                      >
                      > > spiritual hierarchy for time unlimited.>
                      >
                      > > When Paul leaves such a convoluted mess of writings on a
                      > specific
                      >
                      > > subject (which he does frequently), what is one to conclude? In
                      > this
                      >
                      > > case I have come up with four theories. I would be interested which
                      >
                      > > theory you various readers believe to be the most probable. Or
                      > maybe
                      >
                      > > someone can think up a better theory than any of them. Here they
                      > are.
                      >
                      > > THEORY 1. Jesus is not now, nor has he ever been an Eck
                      > initiate
                      >
                      > > anywhere outside of the imagination of Paul. Despite the quotes
                      > above,
                      >
                      > > this case can actually be made within the belief system of
                      > Eckankar.
                      >
                      > > How? If Jesus was an Eck Initiate under Zadok two thousand years
                      > ago,
                      >
                      > > he would have (almost certainly) gone on to become an Eck Master by
                      >
                      > > now. Paul and Harold tell us that once you get that second
                      > initiation
                      >
                      > > there is no turning back – you are an Eckist until you reach
                      >
                      > > mastership. Even if you try to quit you will only come back in
                      > another
                      >
                      > > life to continue on. So if Jesus really got initiated by Fubbi
                      > Quantz,
                      >
                      > > he should be an Eck master now.
                      >
                      > > On the other hand, if Jesus was already an Eck Master in
                      > ancient
                      >
                      > > times, as Paul has Rebazar telling us above, then he would still be
                      >
                      > > one. In either case, he should be an Eck Master today. Yet
                      > everywhere
                      >
                      > > else in the Eckankar writings, neither Paul nor Harold ever
                      > suggests
                      >
                      > > or hints in any way that Jesus is an Eck Master. This would be a
                      > very
                      >
                      > > odd silence if Jesus were in fact an Eck master, would it not?
                      >
                      > > Therefore, despite the lip service Paul gave in places to Jesus
                      > being
                      >
                      > > an Eck Master and / or an Eck initiate, there is no follow through
                      > to
                      >
                      > > suggest he or Harold actually believe it. Ergo, Jesus has never
                      > been
                      >
                      > > an Eck initiate.
                      >
                      > > THEORY 2. Jesus studied first under Zadok for a time, then
                      >
                      > > traveled to Tibet and studied under Fubbi Quantz for three years
                      > where
                      >
                      > > he got his second initiation. After he left Tibet and returned to
                      > his
                      >
                      > > public mission in Judea, he continued to get inner initiations from
                      >
                      > > Fubbi or Zadok, achieving Eck mastership in that lifetime before he
                      >
                      > > was killed. This would pull together the above quotes by Paul into
                      > one
                      >
                      > > piece of a coherent narrative. But this coherence breaks down in
                      > the
                      >
                      > > overall context of the Eckankar writings. It fails to explain why
                      >
                      > > Jesus is so often portrayed by Paul and Harold as a Kal savior and
                      >
                      > > lower order teacher. If Theory 2 is correct Jesus should be a
                      > strong
                      >
                      > > Eck master figure in modern Eckankar. And he is not. So this theory
                      >
                      > > has several very weak points.
                      >
                      > > THEORY 3. The confusing and conflicting writings about Jesus
                      > are
                      >
                      > > evidence that Paul was just a liar with a poor memory. I do not
                      > know
                      >
                      > > if there is strong evidence that Paul had a weak memory. Maybe he
                      > did.
                      >
                      > > There is certainly evidence he was a liar. Or if it rests easier on
                      >
                      > > your ears, that he was a story teller.
                      >
                      > > THEORY 4. The conflicting writings on Jesus are evidence that
                      >
                      > > Paul simply shifted his position about Jesus for his own purposes,
                      >
                      > > changing it from page to page, and from book to book, with a casual
                      >
                      > > disregard for consistency. I think this fits in well with the Doug
                      >
                      > > Marmon theory of Paul – that he likes to show readers all
                      > points
                      >
                      > > of view about a subject without being picky about facts and
                      >
                      > > consistency. Or put another way, if Theory 3 suggests Paul was a
                      > liar
                      >
                      > > with a poor memory, Theory 4 eliminates the supposition that he
                      > had a
                      >
                      > > poor memory, and just leaves him a liar.
                      >
                      > > If we are to believe Doug, he lies for noble reasons. (Oops. I
                      >
                      > > slipped into the Age of Criticism there. Let me get back to proper
                      >
                      > > dialog.) What I meant is that if we are to believe Doug, Paul is
                      > not
                      >
                      > > lying, he is showing us many points of view from many states of
                      >
                      > > consciousness. On the other hand, if we are to side with the
                      > Eckankar
                      >
                      > > critics, Paul lies to deceive. Whatever his motive for frequently
                      >
                      > > shifting his position on Jesus, I think this theory has more
                      > strength
                      >
                      > > than Theory 3 because it is unlikely that Paul would be forgetful
                      >
                      > > about whether Jesus was or was not an Eck master.
                      >
                      > > CONCLUSION. It looks to me like Theory 1 and Theory 4 in
                      >
                      > > combination are the most probable. I would give them about a 75
                      >
                      > > percent chance of being the true explanation. (I just made up that
                      >
                      > > statistic. If you challenge me I will back away from it. <g>)
                      >
                      > > Though I dealt with the subject of Jesus in this posting, I
                      > have
                      >
                      > > found that the problem it illustrates is pandemic in the writings
                      > of
                      >
                      > > Paul Twitchell. To borrow from a visual in Doug Marmons book, Paul
                      >
                      > > created a sort of scarecrow out of patches of straw and odd bits of
                      >
                      > > cloth and clothing. Doug was trying to say in his book that this is
                      >
                      > > precisely what Paul did NOT do. But to me it is evident all over
                      > his
                      >
                      > > writings that they are a patchwork of mismatched bits and pieces of
                      >
                      > > ideas poorly quilted together in an effort to look like a unified
                      >
                      > > belief system. Of course there is a certain overall feel to the
                      >
                      > > teachings. No matter where he got his bits of cloth, he is still
                      > the
                      >
                      > > quilt maker. He left his stamp by choosing what to leave in and
                      > what
                      >
                      > > to leave out.
                      >
                      > > **********************************
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > From: jerre...@ (Joe)
                      >
                      > > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
                      >
                      > > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
                      >
                      > > Date: 13 Dec 2001 21:16:31 -0800
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying to do with
                      >
                      > > Eckankar...
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Having long considered these two questions in the context of the
                      > whole
                      >
                      > > of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in a way
                      >
                      > > that I'm not sure I can classify.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say what
                      >
                      > > Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy promoter,
                      > or
                      >
                      > > a con-artist. There's another element there very hard to define.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other spiritual
                      >
                      > > teachers, we are actually reading him:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Talking about himself.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied ECK and
                      >
                      > > received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated anyone during
                      >
                      > > his life on earth. He never had the power to do this."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD, and
                      > received
                      >
                      > > the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never granted
                      > permission
                      >
                      > > by Singh or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I believe
                      > Paulji
                      >
                      > > was speaking from his own insecurity here.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the
                      > discourses
                      >
                      > > when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as
                      >
                      > > "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual goods like pots and
                      >
                      > > pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda and
                      >
                      > > Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji did, and
                      >
                      > > hence his projected anger.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We don't
                      > exactly
                      >
                      > > know how he felt about his Christian upbringing. We do know,
                      > however,
                      >
                      > > that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the Catholic
                      >
                      > > Church but was rejected.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident) Paulji
                      > did
                      >
                      > > not have a comfortable relationship with the religion of his
                      >
                      > > upbringing. I also think this accounts for what to me is the very
                      >
                      > > worst and most deviant aspect of his eck writings: His dire
                      > warnings
                      >
                      > > to those who join eckankar but decided to leave after initiation.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from his
                      > unresolved
                      >
                      > > issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is on
                      > tape
                      >
                      > > asking Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays his
                      >
                      > > Master"?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way he felt about
                      >
                      > > himself.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > **********************************
                      >
                      > > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
                      >
                      > > From: "Sharon2000" brighttigr...@
                      >
                      > > Date: 21 Dec 2001 01:17:57 GMT
                      >
                      > > Organization: Eckankar Sucks
                      >
                      > > Message-ID: <20011220201757.035$Qz@
                      >
                      > > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar,alt.eckankar
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > jerre...@ (Joe) wrote:
                      >
                      > > > The big question: who was Paul and what was he trying to do
                      > with
                      >
                      > > > Eckankar...
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > Having long considered these two questions in the context of
                      > the
                      >
                      > > whole
                      >
                      > > > of Paulji's writings, I conclude that Paulji was disturbed in
                      > a way
                      >
                      > > > that I'm not sure I can classify.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > Taking the example you've given us here, I can't really say
                      > what
                      >
                      > > > Paulji did with Jesus is the work of a liar, or a sloppy
                      > promoter,
                      >
                      > > or
                      >
                      > > > a con-artist. There's another element there very hard to
                      > define.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > But...I think that so often, when we read Paulji on other
                      > spiritual
                      >
                      > > > teachers, we are actually reading him:
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > Talking about himself.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > For example, here he is refering to Jesus:
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > "He spent three years at the Monastery where he studied ECK
                      > and
                      >
                      > > > received the second initiation. Jesus never initiated anyone
                      > during
                      >
                      > > > his life on earth. He never had the power to do this."
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > Given that Paulji lived a few years in a Monastery in MD, and
                      >
                      > > received
                      >
                      > > > the one initiation from Kirpal Singh, and was never granted
                      >
                      > > permission
                      >
                      > > > by Singh or any other spiritual teacher to initiate, I
                      > believe
                      >
                      > > Paulji
                      >
                      > > > was speaking from his own insecurity here.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > We see him talking about himself again, I believe, in the
                      > discourses
                      >
                      > > > when he lashes out at "Indian Gurus" whom he refers to as
                      >
                      > > > "indescribably filthy," and who "sell spiritual goods like
                      > pots and
                      >
                      > > > pans." The Indian gurus Paulji was iniitated by, Premananda
                      > and
                      >
                      > > > Kirpal Singh, didn't charge for their teachings. Paulji did,
                      > and
                      >
                      > > > hence his projected anger.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > What relationship did Paulji have with Christianity? We
                      > don't
                      >
                      > > exactly
                      >
                      > > > know how he felt about his Christian upbringing. We do know,
                      >
                      > > however,
                      >
                      > > > that AFTER he wrote THE TIGER'S FANG he tried to join the
                      > Catholic
                      >
                      > > > Church but was rejected.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > I suspect that like many Eckists (and this is no accident)
                      > Paulji
                      >
                      > > did
                      >
                      > > > not have a comfortable relationship with the religion of his
                      >
                      > > > upbringing. I also think this accounts for what to me is the
                      > very
                      >
                      > > > worst and most deviant aspect of his eck writings: His dire
                      >
                      > > warnings
                      >
                      > > > to those who join eckankar but decided to leave after
                      > initiation.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > Here again I think Paulji's "eck warnings" spring from his
                      >
                      > > unresolved
                      >
                      > > > issues with Christianity -- and also Kirpal Singh. Paulji is
                      > on
                      >
                      > > tape
                      >
                      > > > asking Singh, 3x, "what happens to an initiate who betrays his
                      >
                      > > > Master"?
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > So in sum, perhaps Paulji felt about Jesus the way he felt
                      > about
                      >
                      > > > himself.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > You made some *very* good observations here, Joe! So much of
                      > Twitch's
                      >
                      > > "writings", well...all those years I was a member, I just didn't
                      > feel
                      >
                      > > quite
                      >
                      > > comfortable with him. It bothered me, of course. I knew my
                      > feelings
                      >
                      > > weren't "properly ecky".
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Does anyone know what denomination Twitch was raised in? It
                      >
                      > > definitely
                      >
                      > > wasn't Catholic...the eckversion of Twitch's wanting to join
                      >
                      > > Catholicism
                      >
                      > > was that he was refused because he was divorced. That's not
                      > true...I
                      >
                      > > checked. A divorce prior to becoming Catholic doesn't count.
                      > Twitch
                      >
                      > > wanted to become Catholic because he was having an affair with a
                      >
                      > > Catholic
                      >
                      > > woman (ask Doug Marman about this one! <ggg> You won't get
                      > an honest
                      >
                      > > answer, though.) and he wanted to marry her. And he was willing
                      > to
                      >
                      > > be a
                      >
                      > > phony & join the Catholic Church just to get a woman.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Anyway...Twitch also wrote some *very* unflattering things about
                      >
                      > > Jesus in
                      >
                      > > Letters to a Chela, but I just popped over to Delphi and oh
                      > horrors,
                      >
                      > > not
                      >
                      > > all of that chapter is there! And there's no note that says
                      > "message
                      >
                      > > truncated" with an option to click & see the whole thing...I have
                      > to
                      >
                      > > go
                      >
                      > > back over the whole site and check it out...but you know, I
                      > haven't
                      >
                      > > looked
                      >
                      > > at LC for awhile. Skimming here and there, well...Twitch is not
                      > only
                      >
                      > > pushing his cultic recruiting, but also doing as much as possible
                      > to
                      >
                      > > destroy any "positive" feelings about any other religions (which he
                      >
                      > > admitted to wanting to destroy) and I think what he writes about
                      > Jesus
                      >
                      > > shows this. He was deliberately trying to paint a *very*
                      > unpleasant
                      >
                      > > picture of him!!! And isn't it sort of hilarious how in
                      >
                      > > Twitch's "Holey
                      >
                      > > Scriptures" he claimed to be born of a virgin? <giggle>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Anyway...here's an excerpt I found at Google...Twitch on Jesus!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > From "Letters to a Chela" by Paul Twitchell:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "Jesus is dead whether anyone believes this or not. He died some
                      > 2000
                      >
                      > > years ago and has not been with this world since. This is the
                      > saddest
                      >
                      > > aspect of Christian religious history, that he had to disappear to
                      >
                      > > give way
                      >
                      > > to a clerical, priestly image. Christianity as a historic religion
                      >
                      > > was not
                      >
                      > > founded by Jesus, but by an educated Jew named Paul, who was
                      > adopted
                      >
                      > > by the
                      >
                      > > mother church as St. Paul. However, Jesus is now the figurement
                      > of
                      >
                      > > the
                      >
                      > > traditional writings, which have been edited through the centuries
                      > by
                      >
                      > > various writers mainly in the Catholic and Protestant churches."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > (However, Twitch claimed that St. Paul was a member of the
                      > secret
                      >
                      > > order
                      >
                      > > of the ECK Masters in his "secret discourses," Precepts of
                      >
                      > > Eckankar, #
                      >
                      > > 5....the early versions, that is. By the time *I* got this set of
                      >
                      > > discourses, Klemp had edited it out. Klemp's done LOTS of
                      > editing
                      >
                      > > in the
                      >
                      > > cult's brief history.)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "However, nothing new can be added about this man who made claims,
                      >
                      > > according to his biographers, that he was the Son of Man and later
                      > as
                      >
                      > > his
                      >
                      > > biographers tried to establish as God who had manifested himself;
                      >
                      > > note the
                      >
                      > > word "himself," which is an expression of the lower worlds. The
                      > true
                      >
                      > > God,
                      >
                      > > the SUGMAD, is always designated as IT which has no gender.
                      >
                      > > Therefore we
                      >
                      > > see him as really a son of Kal Niranjan who is king of the lower
                      >
                      > > worlds who
                      >
                      > > expresses himself in the male gender..."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > ("...the Supreme Deity, the Sugmad Himself." Eckankar, the
                      > Secret
                      >
                      > > Way,
                      >
                      > > 1967. "He will not require that you love Him as a great
                      >
                      > > soul..." "His
                      >
                      > > love...He feeds me..." The Tiger's Fang, 1967)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Those priests and clergy who preach the word of Jesus and the God
                      > of
                      >
                      > > Christianity is thereby only speaking in the terms of institutional
                      >
                      > > religion, that of the educated. They preach from the Christian
                      >
                      > > Bible, as
                      >
                      > > the authority for their case, based upon the words of their God.
                      >
                      > > Therefore
                      >
                      > > we find that this is a false teaching for the Bible is accepted as
                      >
                      > > being
                      >
                      > > the Guru, or the Master which gives the words which those Biblical
                      >
                      > > writers
                      >
                      > > have put into the mouth of a man who lived 2,000 years ago and
                      > never
                      >
                      > > said
                      >
                      > > anything close to what his followers claim down through the ages."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > ("When the sacred teachings of the ECK have been put into
                      > printed
                      >
                      > > books,
                      >
                      > > such as the SHARIYAT-KI-SUGMAD, all ECK chelas can go forth and by
                      >
                      > > using
                      >
                      > > it as reference can give all the holy scriptures of it to the
                      > world.
                      >
                      > > There
                      >
                      > > is none greater than this magnificent scripture and we as the
                      > chelas
                      >
                      > > of
                      >
                      > > ECK must use it as the source book, the living Bible of our
                      > beliefs
                      >
                      > > and
                      >
                      > > faith." Twitch, Illuminated Way Letters, page 216 )
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "It's said that Christians get to heaven simply with faith and an
                      > act
                      >
                      > > of
                      >
                      > > grace. This ws the basic teachings which Jesus taught becuse he
                      > knew
                      >
                      > > that
                      >
                      > > it would appeal to all people on a general basis. Also the denial
                      > of
                      >
                      > > this
                      >
                      > > world would bring poor and middle clss into his teachings."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > (Good grief, this is EXACTLY the strategy that twitch used when
                      >
                      > > setting
                      >
                      > > up his cult. Except...It's faith in the LEM, and initiation &
                      >
                      > > continued
                      >
                      > > membership in the cult. Twitch, and now Klemp, are quite open
                      > about
                      >
                      > > telling their "missionaries" to be sure to tell people what will
                      >
                      > > appeal to
                      >
                      > > them...)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "His father Joseph was an Aryan and his mother Jewish. Joseph was
                      > a
                      >
                      > > member
                      >
                      > > of the Essenes, a secret society which flourished in those times.
                      > The
                      >
                      > > biblical story of the immaculate conception is not to be taken too
                      >
                      > > seriously, that Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost and from a
                      > Virgin.
                      >
                      > > This
                      >
                      > > was invented to fit into the theology which at the time was
                      >
                      > > formulated for
                      >
                      > > saviour-gods."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > (tee-hee. Twitch in his pseudo-Bible: "The ECK enters into the
                      >
                      > > womb of a
                      >
                      > > virgin, the queen of heaven, who has submitted to the true spirit
                      > of
                      >
                      > > the
                      >
                      > > universe. The consciousness of the Mahanta state (the spiritual
                      > form
                      >
                      > > of the
                      >
                      > > human Eckankar leader) is planted as the seed, and carefully
                      >
                      > > nurtured in
                      >
                      > > the womb. When the embodiment of flesh is brought into this
                      > world, a
                      >
                      > > man-
                      >
                      > > child is born. It starts its unfoldment over a period of years
                      > until
                      >
                      > > the
                      >
                      > > state of perfection is reached, in adulthood. Then the chosen one
                      >
                      > > learns
                      >
                      > > that he is the Living ECK Master of his times." SKS 1, pg.
                      > 111-112,
                      >
                      > > 2nd
                      >
                      > > ed., 10th printing, 1987)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > ". . .His name was Yahevau, and he did not receive the name of
                      > Jesus
                      >
                      > > until
                      >
                      > > he was initiated by the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz, at the Katsupari
                      >
                      > > Monastery
                      >
                      > > in northern Tibet. This was the last place where he studied before
                      >
                      > > returning to the world to preach his message. He had been in
                      > Egypt,
                      >
                      > > Palestine, Persia, and India studying under various teachers and
                      >
                      > > entering
                      >
                      > > into the mystery schools to learn about them. He spent three
                      > years
                      >
                      > > at the
                      >
                      > > Katsupari Monastery where he studied ECK and received the second
                      >
                      > > initiation. He believed then this was the moment to give his
                      > messge
                      >
                      > > to the
                      >
                      > > world...."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > (I'll have to check up on Fubbi. In The Tiger's Fang, Twitch
                      > says
                      >
                      > > that
                      >
                      > > Fubbi was the LEM in 10th century Persia...make up your mind,
                      >
                      > > Twitch!!)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "The dust, grime, and poverty of that age was appalling, and
                      > disease
                      >
                      > > rampant...Jesus was a marked man long before Judas got any idea
                      > about
                      >
                      > > betraying him.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > He was a small slender man, of dark complexion, and wore a long
                      > robe
                      >
                      > > characteristic of his times. His hair was short because of the
                      > heat
                      >
                      > > and
                      >
                      > > his beard, like his hair, was brown, but short also. The insects
                      > and
                      >
                      > > lice
                      >
                      > > were too abundant to wear long hair and beards. He was about five
                      >
                      > > feet,
                      >
                      > > one inch tall, dark eyes and wore sandals most of the time because
                      > of
                      >
                      > > the
                      >
                      > > earth ws too hot to tread barefooted. His face was broad, and
                      > full
                      >
                      > > jowled.
                      >
                      > > The pictures which we see of him today are an artist's concept,
                      >
                      > > painted by
                      >
                      > > a German during the 16th century."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > (Hmmmm....just a thought...I seem to remember, Giotto painted some
                      >
                      > > much
                      >
                      > > earlier things...probably others did...maybe twitch is referring
                      > to
                      >
                      > > the
                      >
                      > > blue-eyes one you see in many churches...unimportant, anyway...)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "Of course he wore a hood which kept the burning sun from cracking
                      >
                      > > the skin
                      >
                      > > of his scalp. The title Christ was given to him long after his
                      >
                      > > death, the
                      >
                      > > spiritual name Jesus was bestowed upon him by Fubbi Quantz, and
                      > his
                      >
                      > > messge
                      >
                      > > to the world was a simplified version of ECKANKAR, which was
                      > mangled
                      >
                      > > by his
                      >
                      > > followers and Paul the founder of Christianity. He never meant
                      > for
                      >
                      > > his own
                      >
                      > > teachings to go beyond his times because he realized that the ECK
                      >
                      > > Masters
                      >
                      > > had their own plans for the world's spiritual unfoldment. He knew
                      >
                      > > that man
                      >
                      > > had not even progressed to the stage of astral development, and
                      > was
                      >
                      > > not
                      >
                      > > ready for anything which went beyond this in his simple nature.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Jesus was shrewd and the Romans watching him were foiled for three
                      >
                      > > years;
                      >
                      > > they had to wait until the proper time when one of his disciples
                      >
                      > > showed a
                      >
                      > > weakness. It turned out to be Judas who was the treasurer of his
                      >
                      > > little
                      >
                      > > band..."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Later in Chapter 3 of LC:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > "Since Christianity is only an aspect of the ECK there is no need
                      > of
                      >
                      > > viewing it or any other religion with awe. Therefore we must look
                      >
                      > > upon
                      >
                      > > each with a sympathetic view that every groups is respectively
                      >
                      > > struggling
                      >
                      > > to find the Godhead. Since every ECKist knows that the Godhead is
                      >
                      > > that
                      >
                      > > which is available only through the path of ECK then he must be
                      > warm,
                      >
                      > > sympthetic, and helpful to those in religions, occultism and
                      >
                      > > philosophies
                      >
                      > > for they are all the subordinates of ECKANKAR..."
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > __________________________________
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Well...I'll have to check out LC at Delphi to make sure they're all
                      >
                      > > complete...I think I posted them all here at a.r.e. first, I know
                      >
                      > > I've got
                      >
                      > > them all on the hard drive of a computer I don't have hooked up
                      > right
                      >
                      > > now...
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Bye!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Ho Ho Hugs!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Sharon
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --
                      >
                      > > FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > ***************************************
                      >
                      > > Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar
                      >
                      > > From: ran1...@ (Troll)
                      >
                      > > Date: 21 Dec 2001 16:30:18 -0800
                      >
                      > > Local: Fri, Dec 21 2001 8:30 pm
                      >
                      > > Subject: Re: The Eck Master Jesus
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Greetings Sharon and Merry Xmass !
                      >
                      > > If memory serves, Dr.Lane discovered that Paul Twitchell was
                      > raised
                      >
                      > > in
                      >
                      > > a fundamentalist religion, the Church of Christ. Paul
                      > Iverlet,Titch's
                      >
                      > > brother-in-law, were devout Christians. That Paul's Dad, John(I
                      >
                      > > think), if he were still living would have beat the hell out of
                      > Pau
                      >
                      > > Twitchell for the lies Paul Twitchell told about his family in
                      >
                      > > Twitch's book,'In My Soul I Am Free'.
                      >
                      > > I think one of the links at http://www.geocities.com/eckcult is
                      > where
                      >
                      > > the account can be found.
                      >
                      > > Troll
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > *********************************************
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Etznab and All, There was one quote you listed that had me thinking about a daytime soap opera that I sometimes watch. In other words, Paul cast the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 30, 2008
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                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        There was one quote you listed that had
                        me thinking about a daytime soap opera
                        that I sometimes watch.

                        ""In other words, Paul cast the material in
                        the form of a dialogue with an ECK Master
                        because, quite simply, he felt it was a better
                        way of portraying the truths he was trying
                        to share... "

                        The soap opera is "The Young and the Restless."
                        There was one scene where "Jack" made an audio
                        tape for a Journal that a forger was to write in
                        order to sound like "Victor." What was interesting
                        is that as he was recording the dialogue Jack's
                        voice actually started to sound like Victor's! Jack
                        was imagining "as if" he were Victor! It was like
                        he was channeling Victor, except, Victor wasn't
                        dead. Very eerie! LOL!

                        Anyway, what made Twitchell's job easier is that
                        he used a variety of sources and just paraphrased,
                        copied, or altered them with his own jargon and
                        word/name substitution. Sure, it was somewhat
                        time consuming, to "write" what he did and to
                        condense it all, but this was Twitchell's vocation
                        and full-time job. Thus, it's no wonder that Twit
                        became proficient at playing his imaginary role!

                        Prometheus


                        etznab wrote:
                        "Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms,
                        especially with regards to Julian Johnson's The Path
                        of the Masters by saying, "In other words, Paul cast
                        the material in the form of a dialogue with an ECK
                        Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better
                        way of portraying the truths he was trying to share... "

                        Anybody have a page number for that one?

                        This subject strikes at the heart of an issue I've
                        been looking at for over five years. Namely, is there
                        credible evidence that some of the Eck Masters are
                        "created fictions"? And are there any admissions
                        from "Eckankar" that this was/is the case?

                        A better way of portraying the truths? OK, I'll buy
                        that. Religions and spiritual groups have done this
                        sort of thing for centuries. It's nothing new. History
                        (recorded history) itself is full of "personalities" and
                        "people" created by the imagination(s) of others.

                        The question that has stuck with me was is: "Who
                        is going to write the fiction after the fiction-writer has
                        gone away? In other words, Who is going to be left
                        with that job? The leaders of religion?

                        If you ask me, this is precisely why religion(s) has
                        (& have) fallen to a position of disfavor among many
                        people in contemporary society. Not that there are
                        fictions - BUT THAT THERE ARE FICTIONS WHICH
                        RELIGIONS ARE NOT OWNING UP TO!

                        It is my opinion that people can feel decieved and
                        find it hard to trust religious leaders and clergy who
                        appear to be orchestrating a coverup - of the truth.

                        Was that an admission by Doug Marman that the
                        "Eck Masters" (some of them) were created fiction?
                        Doug Marman, a long-time member of Eckankar
                        who had worked with office staff, looked at some of
                        Paul Twitchell's "old files", corresponded with Gail
                        Twitchell & kept in contact with Patti Simpson?

                        That was a very curious quote to me. I have seen
                        others like it from Doug. My question is, why is not
                        Eckankar teaching and admitting the same kinds of
                        things as Doug? (Maybe they have, but in another
                        language. I'll have to look for it.)

                        I believe one of the reasons I've held to this issue
                        of "Eck Masters" identity (how much is fiction, how
                        much is not) is because I sense problems down the
                        road. History will be the witness to this.

                        Maybe it's just me, but it seems that people who
                        want to know the facts behind "Eckankar" history -
                        those to whom it matters - are being asked to do a
                        lot in the way of finding out the truth for themselves.
                        In spite of apparent contemporary dogma which can
                        easily skirt the issue when "official" religious dogma
                        is written by heads of church. My opinion, at least.

                        *********

                        ""In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                        of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                        simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                        truths he was trying to share... "

                        Doug knows this? Or, was that an educated guess
                        based on "records" he saw & people he spoke with?
                        In either case, I saw that as an historic "admission".

                        *********

                        I wonder. Instead of the LEM and Eckankar Inc.
                        doing the corrections to history - and potentially
                        exposing a coverup - has the job defaulted to the
                        "members" who have less to lose? Is this how it's
                        going to play out with religious dogma generally?
                        People go out and discover the truth and then the
                        church later comes in and says "Yeah. Yeah. So
                        it is."?

                        [I mean, wait until so many people know it and
                        become comforatable with it first - the truth -
                        before endorsing it yourself. That way you don't
                        have to face the mob. Or, there won't be any big
                        panic (like if the government admitted existence
                        of intelligent life on other planets).]

                        Reminds me about the Catholic Chuch & some
                        of it's changing dogma in light of modern scientific
                        discoveries. Apparently. even a church is capable
                        - faced with the overwhelming peer pressure from
                        people all over the world who know better - of
                        "shifting gears and telling the truth.

                        Etznab
                      • drubezarne
                        Prometheus and Etznab, how can Eckankar ever admit to the falsehood of Eck Masters? It simply can t. If it did, the entire house of cards would collapse.
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 30, 2008
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                          Prometheus and Etznab, how can Eckankar ever admit to the falsehood of
                          Eck Masters? It simply can't. If it did, the entire house of cards
                          would collapse. Without Eck Masters, there wouldn't be a current
                          Living Eck Master. So, who would lead the cult. Eckists would no
                          longer have someone to worship. The initiations wouldn't mean anything
                          because the goal of becoming an Eck Master would no longer exist. Do
                          you see how important it is for Klemp to continue the lie of Eck Masters?

                          Regards
                          Liska

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Etznab and All,
                          > There was one quote you listed that had
                          > me thinking about a daytime soap opera
                          > that I sometimes watch.
                          >
                          > ""In other words, Paul cast the material in
                          > the form of a dialogue with an ECK Master
                          > because, quite simply, he felt it was a better
                          > way of portraying the truths he was trying
                          > to share... "
                          >
                          > The soap opera is "The Young and the Restless."
                          > There was one scene where "Jack" made an audio
                          > tape for a Journal that a forger was to write in
                          > order to sound like "Victor." What was interesting
                          > is that as he was recording the dialogue Jack's
                          > voice actually started to sound like Victor's! Jack
                          > was imagining "as if" he were Victor! It was like
                          > he was channeling Victor, except, Victor wasn't
                          > dead. Very eerie! LOL!
                          >
                          > Anyway, what made Twitchell's job easier is that
                          > he used a variety of sources and just paraphrased,
                          > copied, or altered them with his own jargon and
                          > word/name substitution. Sure, it was somewhat
                          > time consuming, to "write" what he did and to
                          > condense it all, but this was Twitchell's vocation
                          > and full-time job. Thus, it's no wonder that Twit
                          > became proficient at playing his imaginary role!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > etznab wrote:
                          > "Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms,
                          > especially with regards to Julian Johnson's The Path
                          > of the Masters by saying, "In other words, Paul cast
                          > the material in the form of a dialogue with an ECK
                          > Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better
                          > way of portraying the truths he was trying to share... "
                          >
                          > Anybody have a page number for that one?
                          >
                          > This subject strikes at the heart of an issue I've
                          > been looking at for over five years. Namely, is there
                          > credible evidence that some of the Eck Masters are
                          > "created fictions"? And are there any admissions
                          > from "Eckankar" that this was/is the case?
                          >
                          > A better way of portraying the truths? OK, I'll buy
                          > that. Religions and spiritual groups have done this
                          > sort of thing for centuries. It's nothing new. History
                          > (recorded history) itself is full of "personalities" and
                          > "people" created by the imagination(s) of others.
                          >
                          > The question that has stuck with me was is: "Who
                          > is going to write the fiction after the fiction-writer has
                          > gone away? In other words, Who is going to be left
                          > with that job? The leaders of religion?
                          >
                          > If you ask me, this is precisely why religion(s) has
                          > (& have) fallen to a position of disfavor among many
                          > people in contemporary society. Not that there are
                          > fictions - BUT THAT THERE ARE FICTIONS WHICH
                          > RELIGIONS ARE NOT OWNING UP TO!
                          >
                          > It is my opinion that people can feel decieved and
                          > find it hard to trust religious leaders and clergy who
                          > appear to be orchestrating a coverup - of the truth.
                          >
                          > Was that an admission by Doug Marman that the
                          > "Eck Masters" (some of them) were created fiction?
                          > Doug Marman, a long-time member of Eckankar
                          > who had worked with office staff, looked at some of
                          > Paul Twitchell's "old files", corresponded with Gail
                          > Twitchell & kept in contact with Patti Simpson?
                          >
                          > That was a very curious quote to me. I have seen
                          > others like it from Doug. My question is, why is not
                          > Eckankar teaching and admitting the same kinds of
                          > things as Doug? (Maybe they have, but in another
                          > language. I'll have to look for it.)
                          >
                          > I believe one of the reasons I've held to this issue
                          > of "Eck Masters" identity (how much is fiction, how
                          > much is not) is because I sense problems down the
                          > road. History will be the witness to this.
                          >
                          > Maybe it's just me, but it seems that people who
                          > want to know the facts behind "Eckankar" history -
                          > those to whom it matters - are being asked to do a
                          > lot in the way of finding out the truth for themselves.
                          > In spite of apparent contemporary dogma which can
                          > easily skirt the issue when "official" religious dogma
                          > is written by heads of church. My opinion, at least.
                          >
                          > *********
                          >
                          > ""In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                          > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                          > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                          > truths he was trying to share... "
                          >
                          > Doug knows this? Or, was that an educated guess
                          > based on "records" he saw & people he spoke with?
                          > In either case, I saw that as an historic "admission".
                          >
                          > *********
                          >
                          > I wonder. Instead of the LEM and Eckankar Inc.
                          > doing the corrections to history - and potentially
                          > exposing a coverup - has the job defaulted to the
                          > "members" who have less to lose? Is this how it's
                          > going to play out with religious dogma generally?
                          > People go out and discover the truth and then the
                          > church later comes in and says "Yeah. Yeah. So
                          > it is."?
                          >
                          > [I mean, wait until so many people know it and
                          > become comforatable with it first - the truth -
                          > before endorsing it yourself. That way you don't
                          > have to face the mob. Or, there won't be any big
                          > panic (like if the government admitted existence
                          > of intelligent life on other planets).]
                          >
                          > Reminds me about the Catholic Chuch & some
                          > of it's changing dogma in light of modern scientific
                          > discoveries. Apparently. even a church is capable
                          > - faced with the overwhelming peer pressure from
                          > people all over the world who know better - of
                          > "shifting gears and telling the truth.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          BTW, that quote (for clarification) is found in chapter eleven, not chapter six. http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm I am critical about Doug
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 30, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            BTW, that quote (for clarification) is found in
                            chapter eleven, not chapter six.

                            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm

                            I am critical about Doug Marman's response
                            to David Lane in the example where that quote
                            appears.

                            Not only that response either, but in others too.
                            For example:

                            http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/kirpaltheory.htm

                            About a third of the way down the page David
                            asks about the publication where Rebazar's name
                            appeared along with others. He writes:

                            Are you sure this article, "Can You Be In Two
                            Places At The Same Time." was published by
                            FATE Magazine? My copy of the same was
                            published in SEARCH MAGAZINE (not FATE)
                            in September 1965.

                            The section following that was insightful too,
                            I thought. In fact, the whole dialogue was rather
                            illustrative, IMO.

                            Etznab




                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 2:07 pm
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] More of Twitchell's Lies and
                            Misdirection



                            Hello Etznab and All,

                            There was one quote you listed that had

                            me thinking about a daytime soap opera

                            that I sometimes watch.



                            ""In other words, Paul cast the material in

                            the form of a dialogue with an ECK Master

                            because, quite simply, he felt it was a better

                            way of portraying the truths he was trying

                            to share... "



                            The soap opera is "The Young and the Restless."

                            There was one scene where "Jack" made an audio

                            tape for a Journal that a forger was to write in

                            order to sound like "Victor." What was interesting

                            is that as he was recording the dialogue Jack's

                            voice actually started to sound like Victor's! Jack

                            was imagining "as if" he were Victor! It was like

                            he was channeling Victor, except, Victor wasn't

                            dead. Very eerie! LOL!



                            Anyway, what made Twitchell's job easier is that

                            he used a variety of sources and just paraphrased,

                            copied, or altered them with his own jargon and

                            word/name substitution. Sure, it was somewhat

                            time consuming, to "write" what he did and to

                            condense it all, but this was Twitchell's vocation

                            and full-time job. Thus, it's no wonder that Twit

                            became proficient at playing his imaginary role!



                            Prometheus



                            etznab wrote:

                            "Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms,

                            especially with regards to Julian Johnson's The Path

                            of the Masters by saying, "In other words, Paul cast

                            the material in the form of a dialogue with an ECK

                            Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better

                            way of portraying the truths he was trying to share... "



                            Anybody have a page number for that one?



                            This subject strikes at the heart of an issue I've

                            been looking at for over five years. Namely, is there

                            credible evidence that some of the Eck Masters are

                            "created fictions"? And are there any admissions

                            from "Eckankar" that this was/is the case?



                            A better way of portraying the truths? OK, I'll buy

                            that. Religions and spiritual groups have done this

                            sort of thing for centuries. It's nothing new. History

                            (recorded history) itself is full of "personalities" and

                            "people" created by the imagination(s) of others.



                            The question that has stuck with me was is: "Who

                            is going to write the fiction after the fiction-writer has

                            gone away? In other words, Who is going to be left

                            with that job? The leaders of religion?



                            If you ask me, this is precisely why religion(s) has

                            (& have) fallen to a position of disfavor among many

                            people in contemporary society. Not that there are

                            fictions - BUT THAT THERE ARE FICTIONS WHICH

                            RELIGIONS ARE NOT OWNING UP TO!



                            It is my opinion that people can feel decieved and

                            find it hard to trust religious leaders and clergy who

                            appear to be orchestrating a coverup - of the truth.



                            Was that an admission by Doug Marman that the

                            "Eck Masters" (some of them) were created fiction?

                            Doug Marman, a long-time member of Eckankar

                            who had worked with office staff, looked at some of

                            Paul Twitchell's "old files", corresponded with Gail

                            Twitchell & kept in contact with Patti Simpson?



                            That was a very curious quote to me. I have seen

                            others like it from Doug. My question is, why is not

                            Eckankar teaching and admitting the same kinds of

                            things as Doug? (Maybe they have, but in another

                            language. I'll have to look for it.)



                            I believe one of the reasons I've held to this issue

                            of "Eck Masters" identity (how much is fiction, how

                            much is not) is because I sense problems down the

                            road. History will be the witness to this.



                            Maybe it's just me, but it seems that people who

                            want to know the facts behind "Eckankar" history -

                            those to whom it matters - are being asked to do a

                            lot in the way of finding out the truth for themselves.

                            In spite of apparent contemporary dogma which can

                            easily skirt the issue when "official" religious dogma

                            is written by heads of church. My opinion, at least.



                            *********



                            ""In other words, Paul cast the material in the form

                            of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite

                            simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the

                            truths he was trying to share... "



                            Doug knows this? Or, was that an educated guess

                            based on "records" he saw & people he spoke with?

                            In either case, I saw that as an historic "admission".



                            *********



                            I wonder. Instead of the LEM and Eckankar Inc.

                            doing the corrections to history - and potentially

                            exposing a coverup - has the job defaulted to the

                            "members" who have less to lose? Is this how it's

                            going to play out with religious dogma generally?

                            People go out and discover the truth and then the

                            church later comes in and says "Yeah. Yeah. So

                            it is."?



                            [I mean, wait until so many people know it and

                            become comforatable with it first - the truth -

                            before endorsing it yourself. That way you don't

                            have to face the mob. Or, there won't be any big

                            panic (like if the government admitted existence

                            of intelligent life on other planets).]



                            Reminds me about the Catholic Chuch & some

                            of it's changing dogma in light of modern scientific

                            discoveries. Apparently. even a church is capable

                            - faced with the overwhelming peer pressure from

                            people all over the world who know better - of

                            "shifting gears and telling the truth.



                            Etznab
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Liska, Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms of organized religion. Making those imperfect outer teachings more perfect and honest. Going back to that
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 30, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Liska,

                              Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
                              of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
                              outer teachings" more perfect and honest.

                              Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
                              Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.

                              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm

                              where the quote

                              "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                              of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                              simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                              truths he was trying to share..."

                              appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
                              Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
                              seven paragraphs by Doug.

                              Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?

                              Look at David's question which preceded all that.

                              David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
                              that Paul was misleading his reading audience
                              because he used the words of other writers for
                              some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
                              was my impression of it.

                              I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
                              "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
                              David asked there? [My particular question was
                              more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
                              Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
                              does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
                              words from books by other authors were used to
                              "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
                              seemed that this was a sensitive topic.

                              Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
                              really make history and come out on top if only
                              it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
                              actual truth. It would be a first among religions
                              and a shining example to the rest of the world
                              if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.

                              Harold appeared to move in that direction years
                              ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
                              after which he said (transcript version):

                              ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
                              ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
                              in the Mahanta—but not at the expense of making
                              a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
                              ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
                              soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
                              fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
                              We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
                              ment. ...."

                              [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
                              Klemp - see link]

                              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c2%a0

                              It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
                              have questions are coming from. And I know what it
                              is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
                              more sensitive questions about religious history my-
                              self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
                              everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
                              that others don't want to "go there".

                              So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
                              path is to become more of an individual and not be
                              like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
                              and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
                              of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
                              an individual having a mind and conscience of your
                              own).

                              It's not just a matter of What would happen to
                              Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
                              knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
                              place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
                              followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
                              like.)

                              How long do you think religion and spiritual
                              paths have been subject to "organization" and
                              founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
                              legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
                              thousands of years, and still the actual truths
                              continue to evade millions of people because
                              the authorities are basing their information on
                              the information of others, based on others &
                              others ... and others ... and others.

                              If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
                              time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
                              labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
                              people today who claim to know the truth be-
                              cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
                              is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
                              and heads of religions officiate church dogma
                              for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
                              it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
                              clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
                              ask the sensitive questions and see where it
                              gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
                              truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
                              "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
                              vehicle". IMHO.

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 3:24 pm
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: More of Twitchell's Lies and
                              Misdirection



                              Prometheus and Etznab, how can Eckankar ever admit to the falsehood of

                              Eck Masters? It simply can't. If it did, the entire house of cards

                              would collapse. Without Eck Masters, there wouldn't be a current

                              Living Eck Master. So, who would lead the cult. Eckists would no

                              longer have someone to worship. The initiations wouldn't mean anything

                              because the goal of becoming an Eck Master would no longer exist. Do

                              you see how important it is for Klemp to continue the lie of Eck
                              Masters?



                              Regards

                              Liska



                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

                              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                              >

                              > Hello Etznab and All,

                              > There was one quote you listed that had

                              > me thinking about a daytime soap opera

                              > that I sometimes watch.

                              >

                              > ""In other words, Paul cast the material in

                              > the form of a dialogue with an ECK Master

                              > because, quite simply, he felt it was a better

                              > way of portraying the truths he was trying

                              > to share... "

                              >

                              > The soap opera is "The Young and the Restless."

                              > There was one scene where "Jack" made an audio

                              > tape for a Journal that a forger was to write in

                              > order to sound like "Victor." What was interesting

                              > is that as he was recording the dialogue Jack's

                              > voice actually started to sound like Victor's! Jack

                              > was imagining "as if" he were Victor! It was like

                              > he was channeling Victor, except, Victor wasn't

                              > dead. Very eerie! LOL!

                              >

                              > Anyway, what made Twitchell's job easier is that

                              > he used a variety of sources and just paraphrased,

                              > copied, or altered them with his own jargon and

                              > word/name substitution. Sure, it was somewhat

                              > time consuming, to "write" what he did and to

                              > condense it all, but this was Twitchell's vocation

                              > and full-time job. Thus, it's no wonder that Twit

                              > became proficient at playing his imaginary role!

                              >

                              > Prometheus

                              >

                              >

                              > etznab wrote:

                              > "Marman also tried to justify Twitchell's plagiarisms,

                              > especially with regards to Julian Johnson's The Path

                              > of the Masters by saying, "In other words, Paul cast

                              > the material in the form of a dialogue with an ECK

                              > Master because, quite simply, he felt it was a better

                              > way of portraying the truths he was trying to share... "

                              >

                              > Anybody have a page number for that one?

                              >

                              > This subject strikes at the heart of an issue I've

                              > been looking at for over five years. Namely, is there

                              > credible evidence that some of the Eck Masters are

                              > "created fictions"? And are there any admissions

                              > from "Eckankar" that this was/is the case?

                              >

                              > A better way of portraying the truths? OK, I'll buy

                              > that. Religions and spiritual groups have done this

                              > sort of thing for centuries. It's nothing new. History

                              > (recorded history) itself is full of "personalities" and

                              > "people" created by the imagination(s) of others.

                              >

                              > The question that has stuck with me was is: "Who

                              > is going to write the fiction after the fiction-writer has

                              > gone away? In other words, Who is going to be left

                              > with that job? The leaders of religion?

                              >

                              > If you ask me, this is precisely why religion(s) has

                              > (& have) fallen to a position of disfavor among many

                              > people in contemporary society. Not that there are

                              > fictions - BUT THAT THERE ARE FICTIONS WHICH

                              > RELIGIONS ARE NOT OWNING UP TO!

                              >

                              > It is my opinion that people can feel decieved and

                              > find it hard to trust religious leaders and clergy who

                              > appear to be orchestrating a coverup - of the truth.

                              >

                              > Was that an admission by Doug Marman that the

                              > "Eck Masters" (some of them) were created fiction?

                              > Doug Marman, a long-time member of Eckankar

                              > who had worked with office staff, looked at some of

                              > Paul Twitchell's "old files", corresponded with Gail

                              > Twitchell & kept in contact with Patti Simpson?

                              >

                              > That was a very curious quote to me. I have seen

                              > others like it from Doug. My question is, why is not

                              > Eckankar teaching and admitting the same kinds of

                              > things as Doug? (Maybe they have, but in another

                              > language. I'll have to look for it.)

                              >

                              > I believe one of the reasons I've held to this issue

                              > of "Eck Masters" identity (how much is fiction, how

                              > much is not) is because I sense problems down the

                              > road. History will be the witness to this.

                              >

                              > Maybe it's just me, but it seems that people who

                              > want to know the facts behind "Eckankar" history -

                              > those to whom it matters - are being asked to do a

                              > lot in the way of finding out the truth for themselves.

                              > In spite of apparent contemporary dogma which can

                              > easily skirt the issue when "official" religious dogma

                              > is written by heads of church. My opinion, at least.

                              >

                              > *********

                              >

                              > ""In other words, Paul cast the material in the form

                              > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite

                              > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the

                              > truths he was trying to share... "

                              >

                              > Doug knows this? Or, was that an educated guess

                              > based on "records" he saw & people he spoke with?

                              > In either case, I saw that as an historic "admission".

                              >

                              > *********

                              >

                              > I wonder. Instead of the LEM and Eckankar Inc.

                              > doing the corrections to history - and potentially

                              > exposing a coverup - has the job defaulted to the

                              > "members" who have less to lose? Is this how it's

                              > going to play out with religious dogma generally?

                              > People go out and discover the truth and then the

                              > church later comes in and says "Yeah. Yeah. So

                              > it is."?

                              >

                              > [I mean, wait until so many people know it and

                              > become comforatable with it first - the truth -

                              > before endorsing it yourself. That way you don't

                              > have to face the mob. Or, there won't be any big

                              > panic (like if the government admitted existence

                              > of intelligent life on other planets).]

                              >

                              > Reminds me about the Catholic Chuch & some

                              > of it's changing dogma in light of modern scientific

                              > discoveries. Apparently. even a church is capable

                              > - faced with the overwhelming peer pressure from

                              > people all over the world who know better - of

                              > "shifting gears and telling the truth.

                              >

                              > Etznab

                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello All, Back in 1981 I was one of many who welcomed a change in ECK Leadership, actually, it was nice to think we would, now, have two ECK Masters! Klemp
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 31, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello All,
                                Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                                welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                                actually, it was nice to think we would,
                                now, have two ECK Masters!

                                Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                                at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                                had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.

                                However, sometime around 1990 things,
                                for me, started to change. I noticed more
                                and more redundancy, and those simple
                                minded one dimensional stories started
                                to bring back that initial embarrassment
                                I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                                the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                                words and level of communication.

                                True, there were those building projects
                                and all of those books he was writing and
                                all of those leadership trainings and intros
                                and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                                those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                                open while planning the monthly EWS and
                                Satsang classes and book discussions and
                                roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                                But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                                all chelas really have are two things- their
                                initiations and their imaginations.

                                Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                                begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                                many are caught up in playing a role for both
                                themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                                and needs power and a social environment.
                                ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                                religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.

                                7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                                accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                                the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                                Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                                and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                                as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                                ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                                of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                                ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                                blind and closed minded in order to protect
                                themselves from the truth. They need to do
                                this in order to have religion work for them.

                                Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                                and expectations. They've become complacent,
                                but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                                what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                                still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                                chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                                for years and years of training they will see
                                that they really have nothing except a number
                                on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                                that has to be renewed every year... even the
                                lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                                year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                                isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                                will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?

                                Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                                does he? He never takes responsibility for
                                anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                                the good. Where have we seen this before?
                                Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                                It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                                Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                                other lower plane teaching.

                                HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                                isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                                ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                                But, where is that protection from disease?
                                With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                                Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                                on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                                fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                                When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                                consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                                lowered their standards?

                                I think that the lowering of standards was
                                a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                                has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                                years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                                Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                                and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                                based around himself, his old Christian religion
                                and upon his opinions.

                                Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                                What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                                Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                                can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!

                                Prometheus







                                etznab wrote:
                                Liska,

                                Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
                                of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
                                outer teachings" more perfect and honest.

                                Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
                                Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.

                                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm

                                where the quote

                                "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                                of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                                simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                                truths he was trying to share..."

                                appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
                                Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
                                seven paragraphs by Doug.

                                Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?

                                Look at David's question which preceded all that.

                                David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
                                that Paul was misleading his reading audience
                                because he used the words of other writers for
                                some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
                                was my impression of it.

                                I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
                                "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
                                David asked there? [My particular question was
                                more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
                                Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
                                does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
                                words from books by other authors were used to
                                "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
                                seemed that this was a sensitive topic.

                                Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
                                really make history and come out on top if only
                                it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
                                actual truth. It would be a first among religions
                                and a shining example to the rest of the world
                                if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.

                                Harold appeared to move in that direction years
                                ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
                                after which he said (transcript version):

                                ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
                                ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
                                in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
                                a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
                                ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
                                soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
                                fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
                                We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
                                ment. ...."

                                [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
                                Klemp - see link]

                                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%82

                                It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
                                have questions are coming from. And I know what it
                                is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
                                more sensitive questions about religious history my-
                                self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
                                everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
                                that others don't want to "go there".

                                So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
                                path is to become more of an individual and not be
                                like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
                                and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
                                of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
                                an individual having a mind and conscience of your
                                own).

                                It's not just a matter of What would happen to
                                Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
                                knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
                                place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
                                followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
                                like.)

                                How long do you think religion and spiritual
                                paths have been subject to "organization" and
                                founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
                                legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
                                thousands of years, and still the actual truths
                                continue to evade millions of people because
                                the authorities are basing their information on
                                the information of others, based on others &
                                others ... and others ... and others.

                                If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
                                time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
                                labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
                                people today who claim to know the truth be-
                                cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
                                is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
                                and heads of religions officiate church dogma
                                for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
                                it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
                                clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
                                ask the sensitive questions and see where it
                                gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
                                truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
                                "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
                                vehicle". IMHO.

                                Etznab
                              • Leanne Thompson
                                I think there is a board of eck. I remember seeing a pic once in     the publication. Bob lawson I think was on it. Petr skeleton on it. Maybe if their
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 31, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I think there is a board of eck. I remember seeing a pic once in     the publication. Bob lawson I think was on it. Petr skeleton on it. Maybe if their shares are bought out, HK can be ousted,
                                   
                                  Leanne

                                  --- On Fri, 10/31/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] ECKists Have Lowered Standards With Klemp
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 11:04 AM

                                  Hello All,
                                  Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                                  welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                                  actually, it was nice to think we would,
                                  now, have two ECK Masters!

                                  Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                                  at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                                  had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.

                                  However, sometime around 1990 things,
                                  for me, started to change. I noticed more
                                  and more redundancy, and those simple
                                  minded one dimensional stories started
                                  to bring back that initial embarrassment
                                  I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                                  the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                                  words and level of communication.

                                  True, there were those building projects
                                  and all of those books he was writing and
                                  all of those leadership trainings and intros
                                  and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                                  those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                                  open while planning the monthly EWS and
                                  Satsang classes and book discussions and
                                  roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                                  But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                                  all chelas really have are two things- their
                                  initiations and their imaginations.

                                  Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                                  begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                                  many are caught up in playing a role for both
                                  themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                                  and needs power and a social environment.
                                  ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                                  religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.

                                  7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                                  accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                                  the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                                  Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                                  and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                                  as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                                  ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                                  of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                                  ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                                  blind and closed minded in order to protect
                                  themselves from the truth. They need to do
                                  this in order to have religion work for them.

                                  Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                                  and expectations. They've become complacent,
                                  but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                                  what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                                  still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                                  chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                                  for years and years of training they will see
                                  that they really have nothing except a number
                                  on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                                  that has to be renewed every year... even the
                                  lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                                  year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                                  isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                                  will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                  Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?

                                  Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                                  does he? He never takes responsibility for
                                  anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                                  the good. Where have we seen this before?
                                  Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                                  It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                                  Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                                  other lower plane teaching.

                                  HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                                  isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                                  ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                                  But, where is that protection from disease?
                                  With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                                  Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                                  on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                                  fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                                  When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                                  consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                                  lowered their standards?

                                  I think that the lowering of standards was
                                  a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                                  has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                                  years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                                  Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                                  and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                                  based around himself, his old Christian religion
                                  and upon his opinions.

                                  Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                                  What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                                  Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                                  can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!

                                  Prometheus

                                  etznab wrote:
                                  Liska,

                                  Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
                                  of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
                                  outer teachings" more perfect and honest.

                                  Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
                                  Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.

                                  http://www.littlekn ownpubs.com/ Dialog_Ch_ Eleven.htm

                                  where the quote

                                  "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                                  of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                                  simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                                  truths he was trying to share..."

                                  appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
                                  Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
                                  seven paragraphs by Doug.

                                  Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?

                                  Look at David's question which preceded all that.

                                  David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
                                  that Paul was misleading his reading audience
                                  because he used the words of other writers for
                                  some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
                                  was my impression of it.

                                  I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
                                  "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
                                  David asked there? [My particular question was
                                  more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
                                  Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
                                  does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
                                  words from books by other authors were used to
                                  "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
                                  seemed that this was a sensitive topic.

                                  Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
                                  really make history and come out on top if only
                                  it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
                                  actual truth. It would be a first among religions
                                  and a shining example to the rest of the world
                                  if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.

                                  Harold appeared to move in that direction years
                                  ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
                                  after which he said (transcript version):

                                  ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
                                  ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
                                  in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
                                  a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
                                  ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
                                  soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
                                  fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
                                  We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
                                  ment. ...."

                                  [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
                                  Klemp - see link]

                                  http://www.eckankar .org/Masters/ Peddar/writings. html#idealÂ

                                  It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
                                  have questions are coming from. And I know what it
                                  is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
                                  more sensitive questions about religious history my-
                                  self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
                                  everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
                                  that others don't want to "go there".

                                  So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
                                  path is to become more of an individual and not be
                                  like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
                                  and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
                                  of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
                                  an individual having a mind and conscience of your
                                  own).

                                  It's not just a matter of What would happen to
                                  Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
                                  knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
                                  place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
                                  followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
                                  like.)

                                  How long do you think religion and spiritual
                                  paths have been subject to "organization" and
                                  founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
                                  legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
                                  thousands of years, and still the actual truths
                                  continue to evade millions of people because
                                  the authorities are basing their information on
                                  the information of others, based on others &
                                  others ... and others ... and others.

                                  If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
                                  time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
                                  labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
                                  people today who claim to know the truth be-
                                  cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
                                  is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
                                  and heads of religions officiate church dogma
                                  for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
                                  it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
                                  clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
                                  ask the sensitive questions and see where it
                                  gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
                                  truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
                                  "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
                                  vehicle". IMHO.

                                  Etznab


                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Leanne and All, First, there is an ECK Board, although, I m not so sure that Lawton is on it. He might have been on it once but I don t think he s still
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 31, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Leanne and All,
                                    First, there is an ECK Board, although,
                                    I'm not so sure that Lawton is on it.
                                    He might have been on it once but
                                    I don't think he's still on it now. True,
                                    Bob is an 8th, but not all 8ths are
                                    on the Board. Besides, some people
                                    only serve a few years either as trustees
                                    or officers. Peter Skelsky would be
                                    on the EK Board as an officer because
                                    he is the President of ECKankar. Joan,
                                    of course, would be on the Board
                                    because she's Harry's spy and second
                                    in charge (and she's a 9th).

                                    The Local Satsang Society Boards are
                                    set up like the main ECK Board, at
                                    the ESC, with trustees and officers.
                                    They are chosen by the RESA.

                                    And, there are No EK "shares" to
                                    be bought out even if someone
                                    had the money. This is a religion
                                    and there cannot be stock shares.
                                    However, Klemp, as LEM/Mahanta,
                                    has sole control of the ECKankar Org.
                                    which is more control than a corporate
                                    CEO has.

                                    Plus, Klemp owns all of his copyrighted
                                    material and is paid 50% royalties by
                                    ECKankar.

                                    The only people that could come close
                                    to knocking HK off his throne would be
                                    the EK President and Board members.
                                    Except, Joan keeps an eye on things at
                                    the ESC for Harry, therefore, I really don't
                                    think that he could be blindsided or replaced
                                    even if there was a legal possibility of
                                    that happening. However, if Klemp went
                                    totally insane while on stage, or was hospitalized
                                    for a major health problem this could open
                                    the door for someone to be chosen
                                    (in a dream of Joan's?) as a replacement.

                                    Prometheus

                                    Leanne wrote:

                                    I think there is a board of eck.
                                    I remember seeing a pic once in
                                    the publication. Bob lawson I think
                                    was on it. Petr skeleton on it. Maybe
                                    if their shares are bought out, HK
                                    can be ousted,

                                    Prometheus Wrote:

                                    Hello All,
                                    Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                                    welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                                    actually, it was nice to think we would,
                                    now, have two ECK Masters!

                                    Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                                    at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                                    had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.

                                    However, sometime around 1990 things,
                                    for me, started to change. I noticed more
                                    and more redundancy, and those simple
                                    minded one dimensional stories started
                                    to bring back that initial embarrassment
                                    I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                                    the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                                    words and level of communication.

                                    True, there were those building projects
                                    and all of those books he was writing and
                                    all of those leadership trainings and intros
                                    and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                                    those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                                    open while planning the monthly EWS and
                                    Satsang classes and book discussions and
                                    roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                                    But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                                    all chelas really have are two things- their
                                    initiations and their imaginations.

                                    Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                                    begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                                    many are caught up in playing a role for both
                                    themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                                    and needs power and a social environment.
                                    ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                                    religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.

                                    7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                                    accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                                    the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                                    Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                                    and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                                    as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                                    ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                                    of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                                    ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                                    blind and closed minded in order to protect
                                    themselves from the truth. They need to do
                                    this in order to have religion work for them.

                                    Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                                    and expectations. They've become complacent,
                                    but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                                    what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                                    still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                                    chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                                    for years and years of training they will see
                                    that they really have nothing except a number
                                    on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                                    that has to be renewed every year... even the
                                    lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                                    year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                                    isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                                    will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                    Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?

                                    Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                                    does he? He never takes responsibility for
                                    anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                                    the good. Where have we seen this before?
                                    Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                                    It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                                    Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                                    other lower plane teaching.

                                    HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                                    isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                                    ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                                    But, where is that protection from disease?
                                    With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                                    Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                                    on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                                    fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                                    When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                                    consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                                    lowered their standards?

                                    I think that the lowering of standards was
                                    a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                                    has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                                    years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                                    Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                                    and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                                    based around himself, his old Christian religion
                                    and upon his opinions.

                                    Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                                    What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                                    Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                                    can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!

                                    Prometheus

                                    etznab wrote:
                                    Liska,

                                    Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
                                    of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
                                    outer teachings" more perfect and honest.

                                    Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
                                    Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.

                                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm

                                    where the quote

                                    "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                                    of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                                    simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                                    truths he was trying to share..."

                                    appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
                                    Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
                                    seven paragraphs by Doug.

                                    Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?

                                    Look at David's question which preceded all that.

                                    David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
                                    that Paul was misleading his reading audience
                                    because he used the words of other writers for
                                    some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
                                    was my impression of it.

                                    I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
                                    "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
                                    David asked there? [My particular question was
                                    more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
                                    Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
                                    does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
                                    words from books by other authors were used to
                                    "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
                                    seemed that this was a sensitive topic.

                                    Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
                                    really make history and come out on top if only
                                    it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
                                    actual truth. It would be a first among religions
                                    and a shining example to the rest of the world
                                    if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.

                                    Harold appeared to move in that direction years
                                    ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
                                    after which he said (transcript version):

                                    ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
                                    ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
                                    in the Mahantaâ¤"but not at the expense of making
                                    a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
                                    ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
                                    soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
                                    fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
                                    We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
                                    ment. ...."

                                    [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
                                    Klemp - see link]

                                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

                                    It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
                                    have questions are coming from. And I know what it
                                    is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
                                    more sensitive questions about religious history my-
                                    self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
                                    everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
                                    that others don't want to "go there".

                                    So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
                                    path is to become more of an individual and not be
                                    like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
                                    and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
                                    of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
                                    an individual having a mind and conscience of your
                                    own).

                                    It's not just a matter of What would happen to
                                    Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
                                    knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
                                    place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
                                    followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
                                    like.)

                                    How long do you think religion and spiritual
                                    paths have been subject to "organization" and
                                    founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
                                    legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
                                    thousands of years, and still the actual truths
                                    continue to evade millions of people because
                                    the authorities are basing their information on
                                    the information of others, based on others &
                                    others ... and others ... and others.

                                    If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
                                    time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
                                    labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
                                    people today who claim to know the truth be-
                                    cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
                                    is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
                                    and heads of religions officiate church dogma
                                    for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
                                    it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
                                    clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
                                    ask the sensitive questions and see where it
                                    gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
                                    truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
                                    "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
                                    vehicle". IMHO.

                                    Etznab
                                  • drubezarne
                                    Prometheus, from what I gather after reading some posts by H.I s, Klemp s talk was the usual ton of stories sent in by eckists. A number of H.I. s complained
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 1, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Prometheus, from what I gather after reading some posts by H.I's,
                                      Klemp's talk was the usual ton of stories sent in by eckists. A number
                                      of H.I.'s complained of the high cost of the internet broadcast in
                                      video or audio format. Others said the seminar costs had gone up too.

                                      The interesting part was how they searched to find justification for
                                      the high costs and the tons of stories. Their loyalty to Klemp
                                      remained resolute.

                                      We're basically looking at a religion in which most of the members
                                      want to be spoon fed whatever Klemp feels like dishing out.

                                      I predicted that Klemp would not let anybody take any leadership
                                      position (including his wife) that would threaten his own. I'm now
                                      going to dust off my crystal ball and make another prediction.

                                      Klemp will remain as the head of Eckankar until he dies. As he gets
                                      older, eckists will become even more attached to him. He will appear
                                      as the lovable wise old sage. We've seen this happen with other guru
                                      oriented paths such as Sant Mat.

                                      On the other hand, the Eckankar population is pretty old now with
                                      hardly any young people interested in joining. Also, the children of
                                      the old folks don't want to follow a dogmatic way out religion like
                                      Eckankar. They can see all the negative stuff about it on the Internet.

                                      Eckankar realizes that young people aren't joining so there's a push
                                      to promote it in 3rd world countries where people are more ignorant
                                      and have less access to the Internet. The trouble with that is in 3rd
                                      world countries people don't have the kind of money that Eckankar needs.

                                      So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will probably die out with Klemp's
                                      passing.

                                      Regards
                                      Liska

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello All,
                                      > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                                      > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                                      > actually, it was nice to think we would,
                                      > now, have two ECK Masters!
                                      >
                                      > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                                      > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                                      > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
                                      >
                                      > However, sometime around 1990 things,
                                      > for me, started to change. I noticed more
                                      > and more redundancy, and those simple
                                      > minded one dimensional stories started
                                      > to bring back that initial embarrassment
                                      > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                                      > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                                      > words and level of communication.
                                      >
                                      > True, there were those building projects
                                      > and all of those books he was writing and
                                      > all of those leadership trainings and intros
                                      > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                                      > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                                      > open while planning the monthly EWS and
                                      > Satsang classes and book discussions and
                                      > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                                      > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                                      > all chelas really have are two things- their
                                      > initiations and their imaginations.
                                      >
                                      > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                                      > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                                      > many are caught up in playing a role for both
                                      > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                                      > and needs power and a social environment.
                                      > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                                      > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
                                      >
                                      > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                                      > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                                      > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                                      > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                                      > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                                      > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                                      > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                                      > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                                      > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                                      > blind and closed minded in order to protect
                                      > themselves from the truth. They need to do
                                      > this in order to have religion work for them.
                                      >
                                      > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                                      > and expectations. They've become complacent,
                                      > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                                      > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                                      > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                                      > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                                      > for years and years of training they will see
                                      > that they really have nothing except a number
                                      > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                                      > that has to be renewed every year... even the
                                      > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                                      > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                                      > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                                      > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                      > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
                                      >
                                      > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                                      > does he? He never takes responsibility for
                                      > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                                      > the good. Where have we seen this before?
                                      > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                                      > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                                      > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                                      > other lower plane teaching.
                                      >
                                      > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                                      > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                                      > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                                      > But, where is that protection from disease?
                                      > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                                      > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                                      > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                                      > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                                      > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                                      > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                                      > lowered their standards?
                                      >
                                      > I think that the lowering of standards was
                                      > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                                      > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                                      > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                                      > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                                      > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                                      > based around himself, his old Christian religion
                                      > and upon his opinions.
                                      >
                                      > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                                      > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                                      > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                                      > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > etznab wrote:
                                      > Liska,
                                      >
                                      > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
                                      > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
                                      > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
                                      >
                                      > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
                                      > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
                                      >
                                      > where the quote
                                      >
                                      > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                                      > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                                      > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                                      > truths he was trying to share..."
                                      >
                                      > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
                                      > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
                                      > seven paragraphs by Doug.
                                      >
                                      > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
                                      >
                                      > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
                                      >
                                      > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
                                      > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
                                      > because he used the words of other writers for
                                      > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
                                      > was my impression of it.
                                      >
                                      > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
                                      > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
                                      > David asked there? [My particular question was
                                      > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
                                      > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
                                      > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
                                      > words from books by other authors were used to
                                      > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
                                      > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
                                      >
                                      > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
                                      > really make history and come out on top if only
                                      > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
                                      > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
                                      > and a shining example to the rest of the world
                                      > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
                                      >
                                      > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
                                      > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
                                      > after which he said (transcript version):
                                      >
                                      > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
                                      > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
                                      > in the Mahanta�"but not at the expense of making
                                      > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
                                      > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
                                      > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
                                      > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
                                      > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
                                      > ment. ...."
                                      >
                                      > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
                                      > Klemp - see link]
                                      >
                                      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%af%c2%bf%c2%bd
                                      >
                                      > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
                                      > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
                                      > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
                                      > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
                                      > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
                                      > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
                                      > that others don't want to "go there".
                                      >
                                      > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
                                      > path is to become more of an individual and not be
                                      > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
                                      > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
                                      > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
                                      > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
                                      > own).
                                      >
                                      > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
                                      > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
                                      > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
                                      > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
                                      > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
                                      > like.)
                                      >
                                      > How long do you think religion and spiritual
                                      > paths have been subject to "organization" and
                                      > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
                                      > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
                                      > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
                                      > continue to evade millions of people because
                                      > the authorities are basing their information on
                                      > the information of others, based on others &
                                      > others ... and others ... and others.
                                      >
                                      > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
                                      > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
                                      > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
                                      > people today who claim to know the truth be-
                                      > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
                                      > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
                                      > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
                                      > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
                                      > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
                                      > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
                                      > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
                                      > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
                                      > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
                                      > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
                                      > vehicle". IMHO.
                                      >
                                      > Etznab
                                      >
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hi Liska and All, I, too, have heard stories from recent Seminar attendees. They have returned home somewhat depressed or sick, but then felt the need to
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 2, 2008
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                                        Hi Liska and All,
                                        I, too, have heard stories from recent
                                        Seminar attendees. They have returned
                                        home somewhat depressed or sick, but
                                        then felt the need to rationalize the negative
                                        effects. This is denial because, normally,
                                        ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
                                        least a few days, but Not this time!

                                        Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
                                        more nonsensical and more devoid of
                                        spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
                                        is getting more and more mundane as
                                        he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
                                        ECKists probably thought he looked buff
                                        or had gained some weight due to the tight
                                        fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
                                        proof vest!

                                        Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
                                        to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
                                        Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
                                        Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
                                        ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
                                        Satsang or EK functions and they don't
                                        read ECK materials on a regular basis.
                                        Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
                                        that show they are looking for short cuts.
                                        They want to be spoon-fed things that it
                                        took most to discover via effort.

                                        Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
                                        This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
                                        needs to believe everything that is promised
                                        and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
                                        in order to make basic decisions for their
                                        and their family's life. Their Religion has
                                        become a crutch that they have come to
                                        rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
                                        has been caged by dogma and false promises.
                                        The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
                                        Those chelas in this Second Group have become
                                        even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
                                        first group they use their "imaginations" and
                                        "scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
                                        onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
                                        they once had when they began their spiritual
                                        search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
                                        ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
                                        doesn't need a religion! What's even more
                                        amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
                                        as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
                                        a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
                                        social connections, and that ego doesn't want
                                        to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
                                        these people are fearful and lazy. They need
                                        to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
                                        same effect that keeps the followers for the
                                        other religions in the world!

                                        True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
                                        but Klemp and Company haven't earned
                                        the increase in costs! What makes the
                                        ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
                                        much effort is needed to promote it?
                                        What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
                                        they have joined? They get to read Old
                                        Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
                                        and work (serve) toward more initiations.
                                        The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
                                        of Free Will and critical thinking.

                                        Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
                                        "Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
                                        that "Change is Change," but where's the
                                        CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
                                        the new, younger, energized, charismatic
                                        LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
                                        there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
                                        him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
                                        and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
                                        destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
                                        Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
                                        after the fall, thanks to those "donations"
                                        and book sales!

                                        Prometheus

                                        drubezarne wrote:
                                        Prometheus, from what I gather after
                                        reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
                                        talk was the usual ton of stories sent
                                        in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
                                        of the high cost of the internet broadcast
                                        in video or audio format. Others said
                                        the seminar costs had gone up too.

                                        The interesting part was how they
                                        searched to find justification for
                                        the high costs and the tons of stories.
                                        Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.

                                        We're basically looking at a religion
                                        in which most of the members
                                        want to be spoon fed whatever
                                        Klemp feels like dishing out.

                                        I predicted that Klemp would not
                                        let anybody take any leadership
                                        position (including his wife) that
                                        would threaten his own. I'm now
                                        going to dust off my crystal ball
                                        and make another prediction.

                                        Klemp will remain as the head
                                        of Eckankar until he dies. As he
                                        gets older, eckists will become
                                        even more attached to him. He
                                        will appear as the lovable wise
                                        old sage. We've seen this happen
                                        with other guru oriented paths
                                        such as Sant Mat.

                                        On the other hand, the Eckankar
                                        population is pretty old now with
                                        hardly any young people interested
                                        in joining. Also, the children of
                                        the old folks don't want to follow
                                        a dogmatic way out religion like
                                        Eckankar. They can see all the
                                        negative stuff about it on the Internet.

                                        Eckankar realizes that young people
                                        aren't joining so there's a push
                                        to promote it in 3rd world countries
                                        where people are more ignorant
                                        and have less access to the Internet.
                                        The trouble with that is in 3rd
                                        world countries people don't have
                                        the kind of money that Eckankar needs.

                                        So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
                                        probably die out with Klemp's passing.

                                        Regards
                                        Liska

                                        prometheus wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello All,
                                        > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                                        > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                                        > actually, it was nice to think we would,
                                        > now, have two ECK Masters!
                                        >
                                        > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                                        > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                                        > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
                                        >
                                        > However, sometime around 1990 things,
                                        > for me, started to change. I noticed more
                                        > and more redundancy, and those simple
                                        > minded one dimensional stories started
                                        > to bring back that initial embarrassment
                                        > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                                        > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                                        > words and level of communication.
                                        >
                                        > True, there were those building projects
                                        > and all of those books he was writing and
                                        > all of those leadership trainings and intros
                                        > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                                        > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                                        > open while planning the monthly EWS and
                                        > Satsang classes and book discussions and
                                        > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                                        > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                                        > all chelas really have are two things- their
                                        > initiations and their imaginations.
                                        >
                                        > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                                        > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                                        > many are caught up in playing a role for both
                                        > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                                        > and needs power and a social environment.
                                        > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                                        > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
                                        >
                                        > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                                        > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                                        > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                                        > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                                        > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                                        > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                                        > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                                        > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                                        > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                                        > blind and closed minded in order to protect
                                        > themselves from the truth. They need to do
                                        > this in order to have religion work for them.
                                        >
                                        > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                                        > and expectations. They've become complacent,
                                        > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                                        > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                                        > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                                        > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                                        > for years and years of training they will see
                                        > that they really have nothing except a number
                                        > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                                        > that has to be renewed every year... even the
                                        > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                                        > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                                        > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                                        > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                        > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
                                        >
                                        > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                                        > does he? He never takes responsibility for
                                        > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                                        > the good. Where have we seen this before?
                                        > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                                        > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                                        > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                                        > other lower plane teaching.
                                        >
                                        > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                                        > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                                        > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                                        > But, where is that protection from disease?
                                        > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                                        > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                                        > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                                        > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                                        > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                                        > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                                        > lowered their standards?
                                        >
                                        > I think that the lowering of standards was
                                        > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                                        > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                                        > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                                        > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                                        > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                                        > based around himself, his old Christian religion
                                        > and upon his opinions.
                                        >
                                        > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                                        > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                                        > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                                        > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                      • drubezarne
                                        Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer comes to a presentation, they are told that they can join
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program to get newcomers to
                                          sign up faster. When a newcomer comes to a presentation, they are told
                                          that they can join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
                                          discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts going to a
                                          prearranged class.

                                          Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership continues to try to
                                          justify them. Here are some excuses by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp
                                          doesn't give greater insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul
                                          forum.

                                          Rationale 1

                                          The stories don't mean anything, because they are just a way for
                                          Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he can work with them on the
                                          inner.

                                          Rationale 2

                                          We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols. Then we have to
                                          interpret them according to our own sensibilities.

                                          Rationale 3

                                          Harold has to work with different states of consciousness. So, he has
                                          to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely frugal with what he
                                          reveals, and very slowly open up people to new insights.

                                          Rationale 4

                                          Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization and this
                                          group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic, and
                                          hierarchical system of Eeckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

                                          So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and deluded
                                          H.I.'s of Eckankar.

                                          Regards
                                          Liska

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi Liska and All,
                                          > I, too, have heard stories from recent
                                          > Seminar attendees. They have returned
                                          > home somewhat depressed or sick, but
                                          > then felt the need to rationalize the negative
                                          > effects. This is denial because, normally,
                                          > ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
                                          > least a few days, but Not this time!
                                          >
                                          > Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
                                          > more nonsensical and more devoid of
                                          > spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
                                          > is getting more and more mundane as
                                          > he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
                                          > ECKists probably thought he looked buff
                                          > or had gained some weight due to the tight
                                          > fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
                                          > proof vest!
                                          >
                                          > Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
                                          > to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
                                          > Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
                                          > Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
                                          > ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
                                          > Satsang or EK functions and they don't
                                          > read ECK materials on a regular basis.
                                          > Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
                                          > that show they are looking for short cuts.
                                          > They want to be spoon-fed things that it
                                          > took most to discover via effort.
                                          >
                                          > Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
                                          > This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
                                          > needs to believe everything that is promised
                                          > and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
                                          > in order to make basic decisions for their
                                          > and their family's life. Their Religion has
                                          > become a crutch that they have come to
                                          > rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
                                          > has been caged by dogma and false promises.
                                          > The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
                                          > Those chelas in this Second Group have become
                                          > even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
                                          > first group they use their "imaginations" and
                                          > "scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
                                          > onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
                                          > they once had when they began their spiritual
                                          > search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
                                          > ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
                                          > doesn't need a religion! What's even more
                                          > amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
                                          > as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
                                          > a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
                                          > social connections, and that ego doesn't want
                                          > to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
                                          > these people are fearful and lazy. They need
                                          > to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
                                          > same effect that keeps the followers for the
                                          > other religions in the world!
                                          >
                                          > True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
                                          > but Klemp and Company haven't earned
                                          > the increase in costs! What makes the
                                          > ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
                                          > much effort is needed to promote it?
                                          > What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
                                          > they have joined? They get to read Old
                                          > Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
                                          > and work (serve) toward more initiations.
                                          > The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
                                          > of Free Will and critical thinking.
                                          >
                                          > Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
                                          > "Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
                                          > that "Change is Change," but where's the
                                          > CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
                                          > the new, younger, energized, charismatic
                                          > LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
                                          > there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
                                          > him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
                                          > and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
                                          > destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
                                          > Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
                                          > after the fall, thanks to those "donations"
                                          > and book sales!
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          > drubezarne wrote:
                                          > Prometheus, from what I gather after
                                          > reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
                                          > talk was the usual ton of stories sent
                                          > in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
                                          > of the high cost of the internet broadcast
                                          > in video or audio format. Others said
                                          > the seminar costs had gone up too.
                                          >
                                          > The interesting part was how they
                                          > searched to find justification for
                                          > the high costs and the tons of stories.
                                          > Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.
                                          >
                                          > We're basically looking at a religion
                                          > in which most of the members
                                          > want to be spoon fed whatever
                                          > Klemp feels like dishing out.
                                          >
                                          > I predicted that Klemp would not
                                          > let anybody take any leadership
                                          > position (including his wife) that
                                          > would threaten his own. I'm now
                                          > going to dust off my crystal ball
                                          > and make another prediction.
                                          >
                                          > Klemp will remain as the head
                                          > of Eckankar until he dies. As he
                                          > gets older, eckists will become
                                          > even more attached to him. He
                                          > will appear as the lovable wise
                                          > old sage. We've seen this happen
                                          > with other guru oriented paths
                                          > such as Sant Mat.
                                          >
                                          > On the other hand, the Eckankar
                                          > population is pretty old now with
                                          > hardly any young people interested
                                          > in joining. Also, the children of
                                          > the old folks don't want to follow
                                          > a dogmatic way out religion like
                                          > Eckankar. They can see all the
                                          > negative stuff about it on the Internet.
                                          >
                                          > Eckankar realizes that young people
                                          > aren't joining so there's a push
                                          > to promote it in 3rd world countries
                                          > where people are more ignorant
                                          > and have less access to the Internet.
                                          > The trouble with that is in 3rd
                                          > world countries people don't have
                                          > the kind of money that Eckankar needs.
                                          >
                                          > So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
                                          > probably die out with Klemp's passing.
                                          >
                                          > Regards
                                          > Liska
                                          >
                                          > prometheus wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello All,
                                          > > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                                          > > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                                          > > actually, it was nice to think we would,
                                          > > now, have two ECK Masters!
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                                          > > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                                          > > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
                                          > >
                                          > > However, sometime around 1990 things,
                                          > > for me, started to change. I noticed more
                                          > > and more redundancy, and those simple
                                          > > minded one dimensional stories started
                                          > > to bring back that initial embarrassment
                                          > > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                                          > > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                                          > > words and level of communication.
                                          > >
                                          > > True, there were those building projects
                                          > > and all of those books he was writing and
                                          > > all of those leadership trainings and intros
                                          > > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                                          > > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                                          > > open while planning the monthly EWS and
                                          > > Satsang classes and book discussions and
                                          > > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                                          > > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                                          > > all chelas really have are two things- their
                                          > > initiations and their imaginations.
                                          > >
                                          > > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                                          > > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                                          > > many are caught up in playing a role for both
                                          > > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                                          > > and needs power and a social environment.
                                          > > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                                          > > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
                                          > >
                                          > > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                                          > > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                                          > > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                                          > > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                                          > > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                                          > > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                                          > > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                                          > > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                                          > > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                                          > > blind and closed minded in order to protect
                                          > > themselves from the truth. They need to do
                                          > > this in order to have religion work for them.
                                          > >
                                          > > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                                          > > and expectations. They've become complacent,
                                          > > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                                          > > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                                          > > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                                          > > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                                          > > for years and years of training they will see
                                          > > that they really have nothing except a number
                                          > > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                                          > > that has to be renewed every year... even the
                                          > > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                                          > > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                                          > > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                                          > > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                          > > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                                          > > does he? He never takes responsibility for
                                          > > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                                          > > the good. Where have we seen this before?
                                          > > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                                          > > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                                          > > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                                          > > other lower plane teaching.
                                          > >
                                          > > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                                          > > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                                          > > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                                          > > But, where is that protection from disease?
                                          > > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                                          > > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                                          > > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                                          > > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                                          > > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                                          > > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                                          > > lowered their standards?
                                          > >
                                          > > I think that the lowering of standards was
                                          > > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                                          > > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                                          > > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                                          > > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                                          > > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                                          > > based around himself, his old Christian religion
                                          > > and upon his opinions.
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                                          > > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                                          > > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                                          > > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hello Liska and All, Maybe there s a new Vahana tip to sign people up quickly while they re off their meds! If ECKankar made more effort to keep ECKists
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
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                                            Hello Liska and All,
                                            Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                                            people up quickly while they're off their
                                            meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                                            keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                                            might have more members, but the main
                                            focus is upon new membership numbers
                                            versus keeping people. The initiation game
                                            with their religious/psychic promises are
                                            what really attracts people and maintains
                                            the membership numbers.

                                            Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                                            20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                                            than Klemp's current message. Not really!

                                            As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                                            that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                                            with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                                            while appearing to maintain his connection with
                                            Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                                            DM's making some money writing his books and
                                            is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                                            didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                                            pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                                            that happens.

                                            Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                                            to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                                            copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                                            Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                                            that older plagiarized material would be a better
                                            read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!

                                            BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                                            his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                                            in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                                            money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                                            just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                                            Should money and a personal bank account be
                                            important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                                            ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                                            with the lilies in the field.

                                            Prometheus

                                            drubezarne wrote:
                                            Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
                                            to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
                                            comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
                                            join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
                                            discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
                                            going to a prearranged class.

                                            Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
                                            continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
                                            by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
                                            insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.

                                            Rationale 1

                                            The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
                                            a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
                                            can work with them on the inner.

                                            Rationale 2

                                            We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
                                            Then we have to interpret them according to our own
                                            sensibilities.

                                            Rationale 3

                                            Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
                                            So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
                                            frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
                                            to new insights.

                                            Rationale 4

                                            Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
                                            and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
                                            and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

                                            So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
                                            deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.

                                            Regards
                                            Liska

                                            prometheus wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Liska and All,
                                            > I, too, have heard stories from recent
                                            > Seminar attendees. They have returned
                                            > home somewhat depressed or sick, but
                                            > then felt the need to rationalize the negative
                                            > effects. This is denial because, normally,
                                            > ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
                                            > least a few days, but Not this time!
                                            >
                                            > Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
                                            > more nonsensical and more devoid of
                                            > spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
                                            > is getting more and more mundane as
                                            > he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
                                            > ECKists probably thought he looked buff
                                            > or had gained some weight due to the tight
                                            > fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
                                            > proof vest!
                                            >
                                            > Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
                                            > to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
                                            > Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
                                            > Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
                                            > ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
                                            > Satsang or EK functions and they don't
                                            > read ECK materials on a regular basis.
                                            > Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
                                            > that show they are looking for short cuts.
                                            > They want to be spoon-fed things that it
                                            > took most to discover via effort.
                                            >
                                            > Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
                                            > This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
                                            > needs to believe everything that is promised
                                            > and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
                                            > in order to make basic decisions for their
                                            > and their family's life. Their Religion has
                                            > become a crutch that they have come to
                                            > rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
                                            > has been caged by dogma and false promises.
                                            > The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
                                            > Those chelas in this Second Group have become
                                            > even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
                                            > first group they use their "imaginations" and
                                            > "scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
                                            > onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
                                            > they once had when they began their spiritual
                                            > search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
                                            > ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
                                            > doesn't need a religion! What's even more
                                            > amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
                                            > as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
                                            > a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
                                            > social connections, and that ego doesn't want
                                            > to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
                                            > these people are fearful and lazy. They need
                                            > to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
                                            > same effect that keeps the followers for the
                                            > other religions in the world!
                                            >
                                            > True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
                                            > but Klemp and Company haven't earned
                                            > the increase in costs! What makes the
                                            > ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
                                            > much effort is needed to promote it?
                                            > What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
                                            > they have joined? They get to read Old
                                            > Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
                                            > and work (serve) toward more initiations.
                                            > The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
                                            > of Free Will and critical thinking.
                                            >
                                            > Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
                                            > "Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
                                            > that "Change is Change," but where's the
                                            > CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
                                            > the new, younger, energized, charismatic
                                            > LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
                                            > there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
                                            > him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
                                            > and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
                                            > destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
                                            > Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
                                            > after the fall, thanks to those "donations"
                                            > and book sales!
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            > drubezarne wrote:
                                            > Prometheus, from what I gather after
                                            > reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
                                            > talk was the usual ton of stories sent
                                            > in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
                                            > of the high cost of the internet broadcast
                                            > in video or audio format. Others said
                                            > the seminar costs had gone up too.
                                            >
                                            > The interesting part was how they
                                            > searched to find justification for
                                            > the high costs and the tons of stories.
                                            > Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.
                                            >
                                            > We're basically looking at a religion
                                            > in which most of the members
                                            > want to be spoon fed whatever
                                            > Klemp feels like dishing out.
                                            >
                                            > I predicted that Klemp would not
                                            > let anybody take any leadership
                                            > position (including his wife) that
                                            > would threaten his own. I'm now
                                            > going to dust off my crystal ball
                                            > and make another prediction.
                                            >
                                            > Klemp will remain as the head
                                            > of Eckankar until he dies. As he
                                            > gets older, eckists will become
                                            > even more attached to him. He
                                            > will appear as the lovable wise
                                            > old sage. We've seen this happen
                                            > with other guru oriented paths
                                            > such as Sant Mat.
                                            >
                                            > On the other hand, the Eckankar
                                            > population is pretty old now with
                                            > hardly any young people interested
                                            > in joining. Also, the children of
                                            > the old folks don't want to follow
                                            > a dogmatic way out religion like
                                            > Eckankar. They can see all the
                                            > negative stuff about it on the Internet.
                                            >
                                            > Eckankar realizes that young people
                                            > aren't joining so there's a push
                                            > to promote it in 3rd world countries
                                            > where people are more ignorant
                                            > and have less access to the Internet.
                                            > The trouble with that is in 3rd
                                            > world countries people don't have
                                            > the kind of money that Eckankar needs.
                                            >
                                            > So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
                                            > probably die out with Klemp's passing.
                                            >
                                            > Regards
                                            > Liska
                                            >
                                            > prometheus wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello All,
                                            > > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                                            > > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                                            > > actually, it was nice to think we would,
                                            > > now, have two ECK Masters!
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                                            > > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                                            > > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
                                            > >
                                            > > However, sometime around 1990 things,
                                            > > for me, started to change. I noticed more
                                            > > and more redundancy, and those simple
                                            > > minded one dimensional stories started
                                            > > to bring back that initial embarrassment
                                            > > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                                            > > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                                            > > words and level of communication.
                                            > >
                                            > > True, there were those building projects
                                            > > and all of those books he was writing and
                                            > > all of those leadership trainings and intros
                                            > > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                                            > > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                                            > > open while planning the monthly EWS and
                                            > > Satsang classes and book discussions and
                                            > > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                                            > > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                                            > > all chelas really have are two things- their
                                            > > initiations and their imaginations.
                                            > >
                                            > > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                                            > > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                                            > > many are caught up in playing a role for both
                                            > > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                                            > > and needs power and a social environment.
                                            > > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                                            > > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
                                            > >
                                            > > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                                            > > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                                            > > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                                            > > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                                            > > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                                            > > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                                            > > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                                            > > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                                            > > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                                            > > blind and closed minded in order to protect
                                            > > themselves from the truth. They need to do
                                            > > this in order to have religion work for them.
                                            > >
                                            > > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                                            > > and expectations. They've become complacent,
                                            > > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                                            > > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                                            > > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                                            > > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                                            > > for years and years of training they will see
                                            > > that they really have nothing except a number
                                            > > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                                            > > that has to be renewed every year... even the
                                            > > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                                            > > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                                            > > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                                            > > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                            > > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                                            > > does he? He never takes responsibility for
                                            > > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                                            > > the good. Where have we seen this before?
                                            > > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                                            > > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                                            > > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                                            > > other lower plane teaching.
                                            > >
                                            > > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                                            > > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                                            > > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                                            > > But, where is that protection from disease?
                                            > > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                                            > > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                                            > > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                                            > > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                                            > > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                                            > > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                                            > > lowered their standards?
                                            > >
                                            > > I think that the lowering of standards was
                                            > > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                                            > > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                                            > > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                                            > > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                                            > > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                                            > > based around himself, his old Christian religion
                                            > > and upon his opinions.
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                                            > > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                                            > > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                                            > > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus
                                            > >
                                          • drubezarne
                                            Prometheus, I don t think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He s like the Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he retire. He hardly does
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                                              Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                                              retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                                              for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                                              stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                                              assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                                              already retired.

                                              Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                                              membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                                              Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                                              much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                                              leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                                              most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                                              advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                                              never underestimate the power of the ego.

                                              We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                                              leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                                              seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.

                                              Regards
                                              Liska



                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello Liska and All,
                                              > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                                              > people up quickly while they're off their
                                              > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                                              > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                                              > might have more members, but the main
                                              > focus is upon new membership numbers
                                              > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                                              > with their religious/psychic promises are
                                              > what really attracts people and maintains
                                              > the membership numbers.
                                              >
                                              > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                                              > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                                              > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                                              >
                                              > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                                              > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                                              > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                                              > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                                              > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                                              > DM's making some money writing his books and
                                              > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                                              > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                                              > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                                              > that happens.
                                              >
                                              > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                                              > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                                              > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                                              > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                                              > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                                              > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                                              >
                                              > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                                              > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                                              > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                                              > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                                              > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                                              > Should money and a personal bank account be
                                              > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                                              > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                                              > with the lilies in the field.
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              > drubezarne wrote:
                                              > Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
                                              > to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
                                              > comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
                                              > join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
                                              > discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
                                              > going to a prearranged class.
                                              >
                                              > Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
                                              > continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
                                              > by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
                                              > insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.
                                              >
                                              > Rationale 1
                                              >
                                              > The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
                                              > a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
                                              > can work with them on the inner.
                                              >
                                              > Rationale 2
                                              >
                                              > We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
                                              > Then we have to interpret them according to our own
                                              > sensibilities.
                                              >
                                              > Rationale 3
                                              >
                                              > Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
                                              > So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
                                              > frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
                                              > to new insights.
                                              >
                                              > Rationale 4
                                              >
                                              > Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
                                              > and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
                                              > and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.
                                              >
                                              > So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
                                              > deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.
                                              >
                                              > Regards
                                              > Liska
                                            • prometheus_973
                                              Hello Liska and All, I agree that Klemp doesn t have to make much of an effort. HK uses many of the same brain washing and fear techniques while using myth,
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hello Liska and All,
                                                I agree that Klemp doesn't have
                                                to make much of an effort. HK uses
                                                many of the same brain washing and
                                                fear techniques while using myth,
                                                imagination, and unfulfillable promises
                                                as the rest of the religions do.

                                                As for there being not many people
                                                (including ECKists) reading this site
                                                that's not exactly so. There are people
                                                (including ECKists) that privately contact
                                                members of this forum, and there are
                                                other indications that staffers at the
                                                ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
                                                from other EK sites. And, we've had some
                                                indication that Joan and Harry peek in
                                                every now and then. You'd be surprised.
                                                After all, there's really no other site like
                                                this one because our main focus is on
                                                current happenings in ECKankar and
                                                with Klemp rather than Twitchell.

                                                Also, there was that person doing the
                                                report on the difference between Christianity
                                                and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
                                                leaders we're able to give insights that others
                                                find interesting and can relate to. We can
                                                connect the dots for them.

                                                And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
                                                to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
                                                as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
                                                certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
                                                that next initiation or have as high of a position
                                                within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
                                                learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
                                                climb that ladder.

                                                Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
                                                site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
                                                that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
                                                share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
                                                Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
                                                or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
                                                by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
                                                of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
                                                this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
                                                Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
                                                had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
                                                ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!

                                                Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
                                                and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
                                                been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
                                                (hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!


                                                Prometheus.


                                                drubezarne wrote:
                                                Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                                                Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                                                retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                                                for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                                                stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                                                assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                                                already retired.

                                                Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                                                membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                                                Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                                                much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                                                leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                                                most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                                                advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                                                never underestimate the power of the ego.

                                                We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                                                leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                                                seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.

                                                Regards
                                                Liska



                                                prometheus wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hello Liska and All,
                                                > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                                                > people up quickly while they're off their
                                                > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                                                > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                                                > might have more members, but the main
                                                > focus is upon new membership numbers
                                                > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                                                > with their religious/psychic promises are
                                                > what really attracts people and maintains
                                                > the membership numbers.
                                                >
                                                > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                                                > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                                                > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                                                >
                                                > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                                                > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                                                > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                                                > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                                                > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                                                > DM's making some money writing his books and
                                                > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                                                > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                                                > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                                                > that happens.
                                                >
                                                > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                                                > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                                                > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                                                > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                                                > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                                                > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                                                >
                                                > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                                                > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                                                > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                                                > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                                                > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                                                > Should money and a personal bank account be
                                                > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                                                > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                                                > with the lilies in the field.
                                                >
                                                > Prometheus
                                                >
                                              • Leanne Thompson
                                                I will contact ESC and say I am a BITCH with God COnsciousness. Lets see what harry says to that. I will take over eck and let bill cosby be the leader.  
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 3, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I will contact ESC and say I am a BITCH with God COnsciousness. Lets see what harry says to that.
                                                  I will take over eck and let bill cosby be the leader.
                                                   
                                                  Leanne

                                                  --- On Mon, 11/3/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: ECKists Have Lowered Standards With Klemp
                                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 2:54 PM

                                                  Hello Liska and All,
                                                  I agree that Klemp doesn't have
                                                  to make much of an effort. HK uses
                                                  many of the same brain washing and
                                                  fear techniques while using myth,
                                                  imagination, and unfulfillable promises
                                                  as the rest of the religions do.

                                                  As for there being not many people
                                                  (including ECKists) reading this site
                                                  that's not exactly so. There are people
                                                  (including ECKists) that privately contact
                                                  members of this forum, and there are
                                                  other indications that staffers at the
                                                  ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
                                                  from other EK sites. And, we've had some
                                                  indication that Joan and Harry peek in
                                                  every now and then. You'd be surprised.
                                                  After all, there's really no other site like
                                                  this one because our main focus is on
                                                  current happenings in ECKankar and
                                                  with Klemp rather than Twitchell.

                                                  Also, there was that person doing the
                                                  report on the difference between Christianity
                                                  and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
                                                  leaders we're able to give insights that others
                                                  find interesting and can relate to. We can
                                                  connect the dots for them.

                                                  And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
                                                  to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
                                                  as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
                                                  certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
                                                  that next initiation or have as high of a position
                                                  within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
                                                  learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
                                                  climb that ladder.

                                                  Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
                                                  site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
                                                  that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
                                                  share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
                                                  Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
                                                  or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
                                                  by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
                                                  of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
                                                  this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
                                                  Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
                                                  had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
                                                  ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!

                                                  Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
                                                  and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
                                                  been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
                                                  (hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!


                                                  Prometheus.

                                                  drubezarne wrote:
                                                  Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                                                  Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                                                  retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                                                  for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                                                  stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                                                  assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                                                  already retired.

                                                  Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                                                  membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                                                  Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                                                  much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                                                  leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                                                  most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                                                  advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                                                  never underestimate the power of the ego.

                                                  We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                                                  leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                                                  seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.

                                                  Regards
                                                  Liska

                                                  prometheus wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hello Liska and All,
                                                  > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                                                  > people up quickly while they're off their
                                                  > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                                                  > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                                                  > might have more members, but the main
                                                  > focus is upon new membership numbers
                                                  > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                                                  > with their religious/psychic promises are
                                                  > what really attracts people and maintains
                                                  > the membership numbers.
                                                  >
                                                  > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                                                  > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                                                  > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                                                  >
                                                  > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                                                  > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                                                  > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                                                  > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                                                  > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                                                  > DM's making some money writing his books and
                                                  > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                                                  > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                                                  > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                                                  > that happens.
                                                  >
                                                  > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                                                  > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                                                  > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                                                  > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                                                  > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                                                  > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                                                  >
                                                  > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                                                  > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                                                  > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                                                  > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                                                  > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                                                  > Should money and a personal bank account be
                                                  > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                                                  > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                                                  > with the lilies in the field.
                                                  >
                                                  > Prometheus
                                                  >


                                                • mishmisha9
                                                  Hello, Liska and All! I agree that Klemp is not likely to ever resign or step down from being the leader of Eckankar . . . and that is why I have felt he
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 4, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hello, Liska and All!

                                                    I agree that Klemp is not likely to ever resign or step down
                                                    from being the leader of Eckankar . . . and that is why I have
                                                    felt he needed to put Joan in a more leadership role. If you have
                                                    the time and don't mind the little expense, I highly recommend
                                                    reading "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" which subtly lays the
                                                    framework for this plan. I believe discussing this possibility here
                                                    on ESA has slowed the process down--after all, how could
                                                    non-eckists or former eckists have perceived this on the inner??
                                                    It would prove that we are really hot on HK's heels regarding his scam.

                                                    I have found it interesting that Klemp has never held a real
                                                    job for any length of time. Is that because he was lazy or just crazy?
                                                    Eckankar has been a real escape for him and provided a cushy
                                                    life for him, fed his delusional ego and allowed him to get away
                                                    with meanness and abuse of others--all in the name of being
                                                    the highest consciousness known to mankind! LOL!

                                                    As for participation and readership on this site, I agree with
                                                    Prometheus that there are more people reading by far than ever
                                                    post. Many people do not like to write or express themselves so
                                                    openly. I have a friends' site, many members, but few actually
                                                    post a comment--however, privately, I receive thank you's for
                                                    maintaining it. Also, I have received a few private messages
                                                    regarding ESA--some sharing private information they don't
                                                    want to post openly . . .

                                                    I'm sure that we have both favorable and unfavorable readership
                                                    as well, but that's okay. Everyone has the right to their own
                                                    opinions; everyone has to decide for themselves, etc. I post my
                                                    beliefs, observations and experiences--it doesn't mean I'm right
                                                    or wrong--I'm just pointing out my perspectives on the cult. I
                                                    don't really care who stays or leaves eckankar, but I do care about
                                                    presenting the Truth!

                                                    Mish

                                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne" <drubezarne@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                                                    > Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                                                    > retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                                                    > for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                                                    > stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                                                    > assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                                                    > already retired.
                                                    >
                                                    > Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                                                    > membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                                                    > Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                                                    > much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                                                    > leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                                                    > most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                                                    > advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                                                    > never underestimate the power of the ego.
                                                    >
                                                    > We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                                                    > leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                                                    > seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.
                                                    >
                                                    > Regards
                                                    > Liska
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Hello Liska and All,
                                                    > > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                                                    > > people up quickly while they're off their
                                                    > > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                                                    > > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                                                    > > might have more members, but the main
                                                    > > focus is upon new membership numbers
                                                    > > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                                                    > > with their religious/psychic promises are
                                                    > > what really attracts people and maintains
                                                    > > the membership numbers.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                                                    > > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                                                    > > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                                                    > > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                                                    > > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                                                    > > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                                                    > > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                                                    > > DM's making some money writing his books and
                                                    > > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                                                    > > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                                                    > > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                                                    > > that happens.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                                                    > > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                                                    > > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                                                    > > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                                                    > > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                                                    > > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                                                    > > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                                                    > > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                                                    > > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                                                    > > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                                                    > > Should money and a personal bank account be
                                                    > > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                                                    > > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                                                    > > with the lilies in the field.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Prometheus
                                                    > >
                                                    > > drubezarne wrote:
                                                    > > Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
                                                    > > to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
                                                    > > comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
                                                    > > join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
                                                    > > discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
                                                    > > going to a prearranged class.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
                                                    > > continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
                                                    > > by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
                                                    > > insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Rationale 1
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
                                                    > > a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
                                                    > > can work with them on the inner.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Rationale 2
                                                    > >
                                                    > > We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
                                                    > > Then we have to interpret them according to our own
                                                    > > sensibilities.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Rationale 3
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
                                                    > > So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
                                                    > > frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
                                                    > > to new insights.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Rationale 4
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
                                                    > > and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
                                                    > > and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
                                                    > > deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Regards
                                                    > > Liska
                                                    >
                                                  • drubezarne
                                                    Prometheus, let s see how many are willing to (in Star Trek lingo) de-cloak . If you prefer to e-mail, that s fine too. So, are there any H.I. s or former
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 4, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Prometheus, let's see how many are willing to (in Star Trek lingo)
                                                      "de-cloak". If you prefer to e-mail, that's fine too. So, are there
                                                      any H.I.'s or former H.I.'s who are unhappy with Eckankar and Harold
                                                      Klemp?

                                                      What do you think about the way H.I.'s justify Harold Klemp's shallow
                                                      talks? Here are the previously posted reasons again.

                                                      Rationale 1

                                                      The stories don't mean anything, because they are just a way for
                                                      Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he can work with them on the
                                                      inner.

                                                      Rationale 2

                                                      We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols. Then we have to
                                                      interpret them according to our own sensibilities.

                                                      Rationale 3

                                                      Harold has to work with different states of consciousness. So, he has
                                                      to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely frugal with what he
                                                      reveals, and very slowly open up people to new insights.

                                                      Rationale 4

                                                      Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization and this
                                                      group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic, and
                                                      hierarchical system of Eeckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

                                                      Regards
                                                      Liska

                                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hello Liska and All,
                                                      > I agree that Klemp doesn't have
                                                      > to make much of an effort. HK uses
                                                      > many of the same brain washing and
                                                      > fear techniques while using myth,
                                                      > imagination, and unfulfillable promises
                                                      > as the rest of the religions do.
                                                      >
                                                      > As for there being not many people
                                                      > (including ECKists) reading this site
                                                      > that's not exactly so. There are people
                                                      > (including ECKists) that privately contact
                                                      > members of this forum, and there are
                                                      > other indications that staffers at the
                                                      > ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
                                                      > from other EK sites. And, we've had some
                                                      > indication that Joan and Harry peek in
                                                      > every now and then. You'd be surprised.
                                                      > After all, there's really no other site like
                                                      > this one because our main focus is on
                                                      > current happenings in ECKankar and
                                                      > with Klemp rather than Twitchell.
                                                      >
                                                      > Also, there was that person doing the
                                                      > report on the difference between Christianity
                                                      > and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
                                                      > leaders we're able to give insights that others
                                                      > find interesting and can relate to. We can
                                                      > connect the dots for them.
                                                      >
                                                      > And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
                                                      > to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
                                                      > as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
                                                      > certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
                                                      > that next initiation or have as high of a position
                                                      > within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
                                                      > learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
                                                      > climb that ladder.
                                                      >
                                                      > Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
                                                      > site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
                                                      > that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
                                                      > share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
                                                      > Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
                                                      > or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
                                                      > by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
                                                      > of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
                                                      > this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
                                                      > Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
                                                      > had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
                                                      > ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!
                                                      >
                                                      > Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
                                                      > and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
                                                      > been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
                                                      > (hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Prometheus.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > drubezarne wrote:
                                                      > Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
                                                      > Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
                                                      > retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
                                                      > for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
                                                      > stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
                                                      > assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
                                                      > already retired.
                                                      >
                                                      > Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
                                                      > membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
                                                      > Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
                                                      > much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
                                                      > leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
                                                      > most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
                                                      > advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
                                                      > never underestimate the power of the ego.
                                                      >
                                                      > We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
                                                      > leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
                                                      > seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.
                                                      >
                                                      > Regards
                                                      > Liska
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > prometheus wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hello Liska and All,
                                                      > > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
                                                      > > people up quickly while they're off their
                                                      > > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
                                                      > > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
                                                      > > might have more members, but the main
                                                      > > focus is upon new membership numbers
                                                      > > versus keeping people. The initiation game
                                                      > > with their religious/psychic promises are
                                                      > > what really attracts people and maintains
                                                      > > the membership numbers.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
                                                      > > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
                                                      > > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
                                                      > >
                                                      > > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
                                                      > > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
                                                      > > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
                                                      > > while appearing to maintain his connection with
                                                      > > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
                                                      > > DM's making some money writing his books and
                                                      > > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
                                                      > > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
                                                      > > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
                                                      > > that happens.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
                                                      > > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
                                                      > > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
                                                      > > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
                                                      > > that older plagiarized material would be a better
                                                      > > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
                                                      > >
                                                      > > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
                                                      > > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
                                                      > > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
                                                      > > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
                                                      > > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
                                                      > > Should money and a personal bank account be
                                                      > > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
                                                      > > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
                                                      > > with the lilies in the field.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Prometheus
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • etznab18
                                                      Quoting: ... even the lifetime memberships have to be renewed every year. What happens if that ECKankar membership isn t renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jul 28, 2011
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                                                        Quoting:

                                                        ... even the lifetime memberships have to be renewed every year. What happens if that ECKankar membership isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                                        Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?

                                                        *********

                                                        About the lifetime memberships, is that true? No renewal, no membership?

                                                        I'm wondering if the same applies as with other memberships. Where one can go inactive (have a "rest period") for up to five years but, without renewal, they eventually become non-members.

                                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Hello All,
                                                        > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
                                                        > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
                                                        > actually, it was nice to think we would,
                                                        > now, have two ECK Masters!
                                                        >
                                                        > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
                                                        > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
                                                        > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
                                                        >
                                                        > However, sometime around 1990 things,
                                                        > for me, started to change. I noticed more
                                                        > and more redundancy, and those simple
                                                        > minded one dimensional stories started
                                                        > to bring back that initial embarrassment
                                                        > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
                                                        > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
                                                        > words and level of communication.
                                                        >
                                                        > True, there were those building projects
                                                        > and all of those books he was writing and
                                                        > all of those leadership trainings and intros
                                                        > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
                                                        > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
                                                        > open while planning the monthly EWS and
                                                        > Satsang classes and book discussions and
                                                        > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
                                                        > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
                                                        > all chelas really have are two things- their
                                                        > initiations and their imaginations.
                                                        >
                                                        > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
                                                        > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
                                                        > many are caught up in playing a role for both
                                                        > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
                                                        > and needs power and a social environment.
                                                        > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
                                                        > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
                                                        >
                                                        > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
                                                        > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
                                                        > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
                                                        > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
                                                        > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
                                                        > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
                                                        > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
                                                        > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
                                                        > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
                                                        > blind and closed minded in order to protect
                                                        > themselves from the truth. They need to do
                                                        > this in order to have religion work for them.
                                                        >
                                                        > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
                                                        > and expectations. They've become complacent,
                                                        > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
                                                        > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
                                                        > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
                                                        > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
                                                        > for years and years of training they will see
                                                        > that they really have nothing except a number
                                                        > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
                                                        > that has to be renewed every year... even the
                                                        > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
                                                        > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
                                                        > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
                                                        > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
                                                        > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
                                                        >
                                                        > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
                                                        > does he? He never takes responsibility for
                                                        > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
                                                        > the good. Where have we seen this before?
                                                        > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
                                                        > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
                                                        > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
                                                        > other lower plane teaching.
                                                        >
                                                        > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
                                                        > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
                                                        > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
                                                        > But, where is that protection from disease?
                                                        > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
                                                        > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
                                                        > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
                                                        > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
                                                        > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
                                                        > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
                                                        > lowered their standards?
                                                        >
                                                        > I think that the lowering of standards was
                                                        > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
                                                        > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
                                                        > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
                                                        > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
                                                        > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
                                                        > based around himself, his old Christian religion
                                                        > and upon his opinions.
                                                        >
                                                        > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
                                                        > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
                                                        > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
                                                        > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
                                                        >
                                                        > Prometheus
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > etznab wrote:
                                                        > Liska,
                                                        >
                                                        > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
                                                        > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
                                                        > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
                                                        >
                                                        > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
                                                        > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
                                                        >
                                                        > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
                                                        >
                                                        > where the quote
                                                        >
                                                        > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
                                                        > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
                                                        > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
                                                        > truths he was trying to share..."
                                                        >
                                                        > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
                                                        > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
                                                        > seven paragraphs by Doug.
                                                        >
                                                        > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
                                                        >
                                                        > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
                                                        >
                                                        > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
                                                        > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
                                                        > because he used the words of other writers for
                                                        > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
                                                        > was my impression of it.
                                                        >
                                                        > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
                                                        > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
                                                        > David asked there? [My particular question was
                                                        > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
                                                        > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
                                                        > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
                                                        > words from books by other authors were used to
                                                        > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
                                                        > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
                                                        >
                                                        > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
                                                        > really make history and come out on top if only
                                                        > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
                                                        > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
                                                        > and a shining example to the rest of the world
                                                        > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
                                                        >
                                                        > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
                                                        > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
                                                        > after which he said (transcript version):
                                                        >
                                                        > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
                                                        > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
                                                        > in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
                                                        > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
                                                        > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
                                                        > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
                                                        > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
                                                        > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
                                                        > ment. ...."
                                                        >
                                                        > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
                                                        > Klemp - see link]
                                                        >
                                                        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%82
                                                        >
                                                        > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
                                                        > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
                                                        > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
                                                        > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
                                                        > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
                                                        > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
                                                        > that others don't want to "go there".
                                                        >
                                                        > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
                                                        > path is to become more of an individual and not be
                                                        > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
                                                        > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
                                                        > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
                                                        > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
                                                        > own).
                                                        >
                                                        > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
                                                        > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
                                                        > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
                                                        > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
                                                        > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
                                                        > like.)
                                                        >
                                                        > How long do you think religion and spiritual
                                                        > paths have been subject to "organization" and
                                                        > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
                                                        > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
                                                        > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
                                                        > continue to evade millions of people because
                                                        > the authorities are basing their information on
                                                        > the information of others, based on others &
                                                        > others ... and others ... and others.
                                                        >
                                                        > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
                                                        > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
                                                        > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
                                                        > people today who claim to know the truth be-
                                                        > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
                                                        > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
                                                        > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
                                                        > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
                                                        > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
                                                        > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
                                                        > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
                                                        > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
                                                        > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
                                                        > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
                                                        > vehicle". IMHO.
                                                        >
                                                        > Etznab
                                                        >
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