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Re: The Spiritual Hierarchy according to the Eckankar Lexicon

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Prometheus! Thanks for setting up this new site. I think it will fill a void and be a place for some real good discussions on what we found amiss in
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 8, 2005
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      Hi, Prometheus!

      Thanks for setting up this new site. I think it will fill a void and
      be a place for some real good discussions on what we found amiss in
      eckankar. I think it will be good to share our experiences and
      thoughts so that we can all more or less see that we are not alone
      in our decisions to leave eckankar--what we experienced, indeed,
      that led us to question and reject the teachings is based on truth
      (which are the lies and deceptions found in eckanakar).

      You asked and commented in your post,

      "Do you think anything else
      > might not be what it seems in the Eckankar Corporation?
      >
      > Anyway, I'm amazed that I never really looked at this before! I
      > guess I was just used to accepting everything and anything without
      > question. Of course, if one did have questions, to whom would you
      > ask? Too many questions doesn't look good because it makes it seem
      > you have doubts and are "out-of-balance." Eckankar teaches people
      to
      > fit in (cult behavior) by not asking questions and learning to
      shut-
      > up and take it (questions) to the "inner."
      >
      > Prometheus"

      What initially comes to mind is all the lip service that eckists
      give concerning love, in particular, divine love. Higher Initiates
      especially don't seem to know much about this. Also, Mr. Harold
      Klemp seems to have a problem here as well. Just reading his
      autobiographies--"The Wind of Change" and "The Autobiography of a
      Modern Prophet"--one can see how he struggled all his life with
      this, and that he really doesn't grasp the concept of love. He
      really seems to be what I call a "cold fish." It seems so ironic
      that eckists believe that in order to achieve spiritual freedom one
      must give love, and yet it is the one thing they seem not to know or
      at least not know how to express. Perhaps, later, I will share some
      personal observations/experiences that show this lack of love.

      Thanks again for setting up the site!

      Mish
    • Gnothe Seauton
      Hi Mish, Welcome to the site and thank you for sharing your observations. I ll look forward to hearing about more of your experiences with H.I.s and of their
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 8, 2005
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        Hi Mish,
         
        Welcome to the site and thank you for sharing your observations. I'll look forward to hearing about more of your experiences with H.I.s and of their expressions of "love" towards you.
         
        Yes, it does seem that HK is rather clueless (lacks higher consciousness), and is very introverted, thus his poor social skills and of his H.I.s (as above so below?). Actually, I wonder if it isn't more correct, at times, to say "As below, so above." Anyhow, Harold is actually very arrogant and gives the impression that he doesn't need to make the effort of giving anything (books, talks, etc.) of real spiritual value. Harold lets chelas "imagine" that he is all (and more) that Paul and Darwin also claimed to be. Some people just need that carrot of future advancement dangled (as a follower) instead of taking the responsibility of spiritual freedom and seeing that the true Master (ones Self) is within. Spirit is always there to guide one (Soul) regardless of the promises and dogma of any religion whatsoever. Soul or Spirit will appear is various forms to impart wisdom and guidance to the true seeker. HK just takes credit for for what always was and is.
         
        Prometheus   

        mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:

        Hi, Prometheus!

        Thanks for setting up this new site. I think it will fill a void and
        be a place for some real good discussions on what we found amiss in
        eckankar. I think it will be good to share our experiences and
        thoughts so that we can all more or less see that we are not alone
        in our decisions to leave eckankar--what we experienced, indeed,
        that led us to question and reject the teachings is based on truth
        (which are the lies and deceptions found in eckanakar).

        You asked and commented in your post,

        "Do you think anything else
        > might not be what it seems in the Eckankar Corporation?
        >
        > Anyway, I'm amazed that I never really looked at this before! I
        > guess I was just used to accepting everything and anything without
        > question. Of course, if one did have questions, to whom would you
        > ask? Too many questions doesn't look good because it makes it seem
        > you have doubts and are "out-of-balance." Eckankar teaches people
        to
        > fit in (cult behavior) by not asking questions and learning to
        shut-
        > up and take it (questions) to the "inner."
        >
        > Prometheus"

        What initially comes to mind is all the lip service that eckists
        give concerning love, in particular, divine love. Higher Initiates
        especially don't seem to know much about this. Also, Mr. Harold
        Klemp seems to have a problem here as well. Just reading his
        autobiographies--"The Wind of Change" and "The Autobiography of a
        Modern Prophet"--one can see how he struggled all his life with
        this, and that he really doesn't grasp the concept of love. He
        really seems to be what I call a "cold fish." It seems so ironic
        that eckists believe that in order to achieve spiritual freedom one
        must give love, and yet it is the one thing they seem not to know or
        at least not know how to express. Perhaps, later, I will share some
        personal observations/experiences that show this lack of love.

        Thanks again for setting up the site!

        Mish





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      • ctecvie
        Hello Prometheus, ... authority. ... Pope ... introverted, ... This is in the teachings in my opinion. You get trained (or is it brainwashed??) during the
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 10, 2005
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          Hello Prometheus,

          > Isn't it strange that Eckists just don't seem to question
          authority.
          > Even Catholics (American) will question the infalliabity of the
          Pope
          > and the laws of the Church. Why are Eckists so passive,
          introverted,
          > and socially inept? Please don't confuse this mindless fog of
          > approval with detachment.

          This is in the teachings in my opinion. You get "trained" (or is it
          brainwashed??) during the time you stay in Eckankar. And there comes
          a moment where you cannot see any more what is questionable in the
          teachings. In my case when I did not understand something I thought
          it was me - that I just not spiritually evolved enough to
          understand. :-) That's why it's a bit dangerous in my opinion to
          say "well let those who want join and see for themselves". It's true
          in a way but then if we can, why shouldn't we point out the danges
          beforehand? Doing that is what Harold calls "spiritual murder" I
          guess. :-)

          > On page 197 of "A Cosmic Sea of Words, The Eckankar Lexicon" is the
          > definition for spiritual hierarchy. I find it interesting that
          Klemp
          > has taken 95% of the Eckankar Dictionary by Paul Twitchell but does
          > not mention this in the jacket. Klemp "created" another book to add
          > to the multitude by deleting and revising interesting information,
          > while adding his own twist.

          Yes there is more than one twist here, and that's what makes the
          underlying truth worthless ...


          > I will give my own comments to the problems with this definition
          > after listing it as follows:
          >
          > "Beginning with the Sugmad, followed by the ECK and the Mahanta,
          the
          > Living ECK Master, the Adepts of the Order of the Vairagi, the
          Lords
          > of each plane within the higher worlds, the guardians of the
          > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. Over the lower worlds Sugmad placed Kal
          > Niranjan, the Lord of the negative worlds; then came the Lords of
          > Karma, the devas (angels), planetary spirits, bhuts, and
          elementals;
          > then came man and all the creatures subordinate to him: fish,
          > animals, reptiles, plants, and stones."
          >
          > In the Eckankar Dictionary Twitchell mentions the Mahanta and
          > the "Living ECK Masters" (plural). And, where are the Nine Silent
          > Ones? Where is Sat Nam? Where is Soul listed in this hierarchy? NO
          > WHERE! Also, why would fish be listed before animals? This doesn't
          > make sense! If Harold was going to do a revision and take full
          > credit for this book then why did he (the infalliable mahanta)
          screw
          > this up! The highest consciousness on the planet (the L.E.M.,
          > Mahanta) really let us down on this one! Do you think anything else
          > might not be what it seems in the Eckankar Corporation?
          >
          > Anyway, I'm amazed that I never really looked at this before! I
          > guess I was just used to accepting everything and anything without
          > question. Of course, if one did have questions, to whom would you
          > ask? Too many questions doesn't look good because it makes it seem
          > you have doubts and are "out-of-balance." Eckankar teaches people
          to
          > fit in (cult behavior) by not asking questions and learning to shut-
          > up and take it (questions) to the "inner."

          I'm amazed, too! Yes you just get used to not asking questions any
          more because you "get it on the inner!" :-)

          Ingrid
          >
          > Prometheus
        • mishmisha9
          Hello, Prometheus and Ingrid! I like your comments about the spiritual hierarchy and how passive eckists seem to be. It always seemed to me in discussion
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 10, 2005
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            Hello, Prometheus and Ingrid!

            I like your comments about the spiritual hierarchy and how passive
            eckists seem to be. It always seemed to me in discussion groups that
            every problem a person had, no matter how trivial or immense, all
            one had to do was take it to the inner/surrender it to the mahanta.
            I could never figure out how anybody resolved anything in the "real"
            world. If you were having a problem with a co-worker or boss at your
            work place, all you had to do was take it to the inner--and smile
            outwardly as though nothing was amiss, because the beloved mahanta
            was taking care of it for you and protecting you--or I guess
            eventually the problem would just fade away, replaced by something
            else to take to the inner. My problem with doing this so much, it
            seemed, that we were not really connecting with the outer at all--
            everything was given up to the inner. No balance of the two! And it
            seems that "life" was just passing by, wasted!

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
            <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Prometheus,
            >
            > > Isn't it strange that Eckists just don't seem to question
            > authority.
            > > Even Catholics (American) will question the infalliabity of the
            > Pope
            > > and the laws of the Church. Why are Eckists so passive,
            > introverted,
            > > and socially inept? Please don't confuse this mindless fog of
            > > approval with detachment.
            >
            > This is in the teachings in my opinion. You get "trained" (or is
            it
            > brainwashed??) during the time you stay in Eckankar. And there
            comes
            > a moment where you cannot see any more what is questionable in the
            > teachings. In my case when I did not understand something I
            thought
            > it was me - that I just not spiritually evolved enough to
            > understand. :-) That's why it's a bit dangerous in my opinion to
            > say "well let those who want join and see for themselves". It's
            true
            > in a way but then if we can, why shouldn't we point out the danges
            > beforehand? Doing that is what Harold calls "spiritual murder" I
            > guess. :-)
            >
            > > On page 197 of "A Cosmic Sea of Words, The Eckankar Lexicon" is
            the
            > > definition for spiritual hierarchy. I find it interesting that
            > Klemp
            > > has taken 95% of the Eckankar Dictionary by Paul Twitchell but
            does
            > > not mention this in the jacket. Klemp "created" another book to
            add
            > > to the multitude by deleting and revising interesting
            information,
            > > while adding his own twist.
            >
            > Yes there is more than one twist here, and that's what makes the
            > underlying truth worthless ...
            >
            >
            > > I will give my own comments to the problems with this definition
            > > after listing it as follows:
            > >
            > > "Beginning with the Sugmad, followed by the ECK and the Mahanta,
            > the
            > > Living ECK Master, the Adepts of the Order of the Vairagi, the
            > Lords
            > > of each plane within the higher worlds, the guardians of the
            > > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. Over the lower worlds Sugmad placed Kal
            > > Niranjan, the Lord of the negative worlds; then came the Lords
            of
            > > Karma, the devas (angels), planetary spirits, bhuts, and
            > elementals;
            > > then came man and all the creatures subordinate to him: fish,
            > > animals, reptiles, plants, and stones."
            > >
            > > In the Eckankar Dictionary Twitchell mentions the Mahanta and
            > > the "Living ECK Masters" (plural). And, where are the Nine
            Silent
            > > Ones? Where is Sat Nam? Where is Soul listed in this hierarchy?
            NO
            > > WHERE! Also, why would fish be listed before animals? This
            doesn't
            > > make sense! If Harold was going to do a revision and take full
            > > credit for this book then why did he (the infalliable mahanta)
            > screw
            > > this up! The highest consciousness on the planet (the L.E.M.,
            > > Mahanta) really let us down on this one! Do you think anything
            else
            > > might not be what it seems in the Eckankar Corporation?
            > >
            > > Anyway, I'm amazed that I never really looked at this before! I
            > > guess I was just used to accepting everything and anything
            without
            > > question. Of course, if one did have questions, to whom would
            you
            > > ask? Too many questions doesn't look good because it makes it
            seem
            > > you have doubts and are "out-of-balance." Eckankar teaches
            people
            > to
            > > fit in (cult behavior) by not asking questions and learning to
            shut-
            > > up and take it (questions) to the "inner."
            >
            > I'm amazed, too! Yes you just get used to not asking questions any
            > more because you "get it on the inner!" :-)
            >
            > Ingrid
            > >
            > > Prometheus
          • ctecvie
            Hello Mish! ... that ... the real ... your ... You are right - I had this same impression, that they didn t connect with the real outer world. And it even
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 10, 2005
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              Hello Mish!

              > I like your comments about the spiritual hierarchy and how passive
              > eckists seem to be. It always seemed to me in discussion groups
              that
              > every problem a person had, no matter how trivial or immense, all
              > one had to do was take it to the inner/surrender it to the mahanta.
              > I could never figure out how anybody resolved anything in
              the "real"
              > world. If you were having a problem with a co-worker or boss at
              your
              > work place, all you had to do was take it to the inner--and smile
              > outwardly as though nothing was amiss, because the beloved mahanta
              > was taking care of it for you and protecting you--or I guess
              > eventually the problem would just fade away, replaced by something
              > else to take to the inner. My problem with doing this so much, it
              > seemed, that we were not really connecting with the outer at all--
              > everything was given up to the inner. No balance of the two! And it
              > seems that "life" was just passing by, wasted!

              You are right - I had this same impression, that they didn't connect
              with the real outer world. And it even seemed to me that the more
              inner experiences some people had, the less they could live their
              outer life! I remember one story that fits well into this context I
              think.

              When one eckist was in the hospital, there was a lot of noise during
              visit time because one other patient had quite a lot of visitors who,
              on top of this, stayed longer than the allowed time. This eckist
              badly needed her calm and quiet because she needed to recover from
              the surgery or whatever she had had. She wanted the visitors to leave
              so she asked the mahanta to help her. And, would you believe? A few
              minutes afterwards the doctor came and asked the visitors to leave,
              so she was very relieved.

              Well, I always thought she would have resolved that problem rather
              easily and more quickly - by asking the people directly ... :-)

              Ingrid
            • mishmisha9
              Hello, Ingrid! Yes, that is a good example of a person avoiding life situations. It seemed to me that many eckists had very poor social skills, and being in
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 10, 2005
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                Hello, Ingrid!

                Yes, that is a good example of a person avoiding "life" situations.
                It seemed to me that many eckists had very poor social skills, and
                being in the org. didn't help them improve. But if you look at
                Harold and his personal stories, his skills have been lacking as
                well. This might be one reason why it would be difficult for some
                eckists to leave even though they are aware of the lies and
                deceptions pervasive in eckankar. In a way, some may be trapped by
                their lack of self-confidence which impedes self-responsibility. Of
                course, there are other reasons eckists will not leave, but that can
                be another discussion!

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Mish!
                >
                > > I like your comments about the spiritual hierarchy and how
                passive
                > > eckists seem to be. It always seemed to me in discussion groups
                > that
                > > every problem a person had, no matter how trivial or immense,
                all
                > > one had to do was take it to the inner/surrender it to the
                mahanta.
                > > I could never figure out how anybody resolved anything in
                > the "real"
                > > world. If you were having a problem with a co-worker or boss at
                > your
                > > work place, all you had to do was take it to the inner--and
                smile
                > > outwardly as though nothing was amiss, because the beloved
                mahanta
                > > was taking care of it for you and protecting you--or I guess
                > > eventually the problem would just fade away, replaced by
                something
                > > else to take to the inner. My problem with doing this so much,
                it
                > > seemed, that we were not really connecting with the outer at all-
                -
                > > everything was given up to the inner. No balance of the two! And
                it
                > > seems that "life" was just passing by, wasted!
                >
                > You are right - I had this same impression, that they didn't
                connect
                > with the real outer world. And it even seemed to me that the more
                > inner experiences some people had, the less they could live their
                > outer life! I remember one story that fits well into this context
                I
                > think.
                >
                > When one eckist was in the hospital, there was a lot of noise
                during
                > visit time because one other patient had quite a lot of visitors
                who,
                > on top of this, stayed longer than the allowed time. This eckist
                > badly needed her calm and quiet because she needed to recover from
                > the surgery or whatever she had had. She wanted the visitors to
                leave
                > so she asked the mahanta to help her. And, would you believe? A
                few
                > minutes afterwards the doctor came and asked the visitors to
                leave,
                > so she was very relieved.
                >
                > Well, I always thought she would have resolved that problem rather
                > easily and more quickly - by asking the people directly ... :-)
                >
                > Ingrid
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