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Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot the Messenger!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Liska and All, It s really hard to know how much EK money Klemp has squirreled away. I made some guesses at the amounts of monies that are NOW being
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 1, 2008
      Hello Liska and All,
      It's really hard to know how much
      EK money Klemp has squirreled
      away. I made some guesses at the
      amounts of monies that are NOW
      being brought in and spent, but
      how much has been accumulated
      over time?

      The main EK Org has money in
      banks, in stocks, bonds, and
      property, but the Satsang
      Societies (SS) have money in banks
      and invested too! With around
      100 Satsang Societies it is hard
      to know how much, of the ESC's
      money, that Satsang Societies
      still have in their possession.

      At one time the local Satsang Societies
      were accumulating money in "Building
      Funds." I'm wondering if this has changed.
      And, since local EK Regional Seminars
      are declining the money used for these
      is Not being spent.

      Also, more money might be accumulating,
      locally, since money is usually Not spent
      on keeping local ECK Centers open. Local
      EK Centers are to be self-sufficient. Thus,
      the low number of local EK Centers. Klemp
      doesn't really want (his) money spent in
      this fashion. That's, also, why Klemp has
      separate funds like a Missionary Fund and
      a Building Fund! Why spend all of his (LEM)
      money on these things when chelas spend
      more of their money!

      Also, even when there were more Regional
      Seminars many RESAs of these Satsang
      Societies were encouraged (by Peter & Klemp)
      to sent in a yearly amount (like a donation)
      to the ESC from their Satsang's funds.
      These were considered to be "excess funds."

      Even Bob Lawton's Connecticut Satsang
      Society gives a yearly amount to the ESC.
      And they have a "Temple" to fund! The ESC
      even printed a picture once, in the Mystic
      World, of Bob and some chelas handing over
      a check for $2000 or so! How proud they
      were!

      If every (100) Satsang Society gave $1000
      per year that would be an extra $1 million
      coming in (to Klemp). Many local ECKists
      aren't even informed by their RESAs that
      their "extra" money is being sent to the ESC!

      Many ECKists, still, don't realize that ALL
      SATSANG SOCIETY MONEY belongs to
      ECKANKAR! It's Not their money or their
      TV's or their Tables, etc.... it ALL belongs
      to Eckankar!

      Here's a good one. Even the books, photos,
      CDs, tapes, jewelry, brochures, signs, and
      all EK materials that are purchased by the
      local EK Centers and Satsang Societies
      actually belong to ECKANKAR. They buy
      these items, with their own money, from
      Eckankar and Eckankar ends up owning
      it all including the "profits" from sales!

      So, if we take $30K (the ave. total in SS
      bank accounts) and multiply that by 100
      Satsang Societies we have, maybe, around
      $30 million dollars, more or less, hidden
      away (for a rainy day?) in local Satsang
      Societies.

      Prometheus


      Liska wrote:
      Since Eckankar is one of the most
      secretive organizations, it's really
      hard to say how they are doing
      financially.

      We used to wonder why they
      never sent us annual statements
      like other religions. I heard they
      moved to Minneapolis to avoid
      revealing their finances because
      of California laws.

      All this secret money stuff should
      be enough of a clue that there's
      something wrong with this group.

      As for clues to how Eckankar is
      doing one can judge by the turn
      out at local events. For one thing,
      there are no youth except for a few
      that were brought up in eckankar
      families.

      When people try to hold events
      such as intro talks hardly anybody
      shows up. One H.I. from California
      told a story on soul forum about
      renting a hall for over 200 people
      for an intro talk. His group advertised
      in the papers, on the radio, and put
      up posters all over the place. When
      the day of the talk arrived, 3 people
      showed up.

      H.I.'s on soul forum complained that
      when they couldn't get enough new
      people to come to their events, the
      main office said there was something
      wrong with the way they were presenting
      the message.

      They even had a long drawn out
      discussion on soul forum trying to
      figure out why young people aren't
      interested in Eckankar.

      The low turnout at events, no youth,
      increased charges for audio and
      video broadcasts of Klemp, and
      the heavy handed advertising for
      the World Wide are all indicators
      that finances aren't what they used
      to be.

      Regards
      Liska

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Mish and All,
      > Eckankar sales has probably dropped
      > to about $2.5 million in annual
      > membership and seminar donations
      > worldwide. There is probably $500K
      > per year in total projected material
      > sales, but IMO this has fallen short
      > to less than $300K. Of course, there
      > are also those misc. gifted donations
      > too that add to the treasury.
      >
      > I doubt that payroll and operating
      > expenses (insurance, etc.) and equipment
      > costs, etc. would be more than $1.5
      > million in a normal year. And, since
      > the EK church is tax exempt this helps
      > to keep the overall operating costs
      > low. Of course, this doesn't take into
      > consideration the Klemps' salaries
      > (retirement and other perks) or Peter's!
      >
      > And, let's face it... Seminars are Not
      > money makers and this is why Regionals
      > are being cancelled. These seminars
      > deplete funds and don't bring in enough
      > new members or sell enough materials
      > to justify their existence. Before, each
      > state or foreign country was to have
      > one or two regional seminars per year!
      >
      > There is a real cash flow problem in
      > Eckankar and this is why Klemp and
      > Company are coming up with new ideas
      > on how to bring in new money. The new
      > photo with Klemp's goofy gaze and the
      > increased costs on Internet Seminar
      > talks are just the beginning.
      >
      > I suggested years ago that there be
      > Condos built with shops (EK businesses)
      > on the Temple grounds. Really, how much
      > would that cost? Wouldn't that be a great
      > money making tax exempt investment
      > that would benefit everyone? Why is Klemp
      > so fearful and/or stingy and has No vision
      > for a real EK community? I guess Klemp
      > wouldn't want to live near his chelas...
      > after all HK's No Rebazar... but who is!
      >
      > Prometheus
    • drubezarne
      Hi Prometheus At one time I served on the Satsang Society board. Our finances were about $13,000. It was the only time I was able learn about the amount of
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 2, 2008
        Hi Prometheus
        At one time I served on the Satsang Society board. Our finances were
        about $13,000. It was the only time I was able learn about the amount
        of money in the society account and this was because we had to vote on
        how to spend it. Later on, after I stopped going to the meetings (I
        only went to one), it was back to secrecy. Once the new RESA took
        over, she said the finances were a mess, but would't reveal how much
        money there was in the account.

        Secrecy in Eckankar is one of its major components. They justify
        secrecy by invoking "The Law of Silence". This made up law is
        sacrosanct in Eckankar and it's used in all kinds of ways from
        covering up the lies and behavior of every Eck Master (Paul, Darwin,
        and Harold) to the non-disclosure of finances.

        Regards
        Liska

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Liska and All,
        > It's really hard to know how much
        > EK money Klemp has squirreled
        > away. I made some guesses at the
        > amounts of monies that are NOW
        > being brought in and spent, but
        > how much has been accumulated
        > over time?
        >
        > The main EK Org has money in
        > banks, in stocks, bonds, and
        > property, but the Satsang
        > Societies (SS) have money in banks
        > and invested too! With around
        > 100 Satsang Societies it is hard
        > to know how much, of the ESC's
        > money, that Satsang Societies
        > still have in their possession.
        >
        > At one time the local Satsang Societies
        > were accumulating money in "Building
        > Funds." I'm wondering if this has changed.
        > And, since local EK Regional Seminars
        > are declining the money used for these
        > is Not being spent.
        >
        > Also, more money might be accumulating,
        > locally, since money is usually Not spent
        > on keeping local ECK Centers open. Local
        > EK Centers are to be self-sufficient. Thus,
        > the low number of local EK Centers. Klemp
        > doesn't really want (his) money spent in
        > this fashion. That's, also, why Klemp has
        > separate funds like a Missionary Fund and
        > a Building Fund! Why spend all of his (LEM)
        > money on these things when chelas spend
        > more of their money!
        >
        > Also, even when there were more Regional
        > Seminars many RESAs of these Satsang
        > Societies were encouraged (by Peter & Klemp)
        > to sent in a yearly amount (like a donation)
        > to the ESC from their Satsang's funds.
        > These were considered to be "excess funds."
        >
        > Even Bob Lawton's Connecticut Satsang
        > Society gives a yearly amount to the ESC.
        > And they have a "Temple" to fund! The ESC
        > even printed a picture once, in the Mystic
        > World, of Bob and some chelas handing over
        > a check for $2000 or so! How proud they
        > were!
        >
        > If every (100) Satsang Society gave $1000
        > per year that would be an extra $1 million
        > coming in (to Klemp). Many local ECKists
        > aren't even informed by their RESAs that
        > their "extra" money is being sent to the ESC!
        >
        > Many ECKists, still, don't realize that ALL
        > SATSANG SOCIETY MONEY belongs to
        > ECKANKAR! It's Not their money or their
        > TV's or their Tables, etc.... it ALL belongs
        > to Eckankar!
        >
        > Here's a good one. Even the books, photos,
        > CDs, tapes, jewelry, brochures, signs, and
        > all EK materials that are purchased by the
        > local EK Centers and Satsang Societies
        > actually belong to ECKANKAR. They buy
        > these items, with their own money, from
        > Eckankar and Eckankar ends up owning
        > it all including the "profits" from sales!
        >
        > So, if we take $30K (the ave. total in SS
        > bank accounts) and multiply that by 100
        > Satsang Societies we have, maybe, around
        > $30 million dollars, more or less, hidden
        > away (for a rainy day?) in local Satsang
        > Societies.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > Liska wrote:
        > Since Eckankar is one of the most
        > secretive organizations, it's really
        > hard to say how they are doing
        > financially.
        >
        > We used to wonder why they
        > never sent us annual statements
        > like other religions. I heard they
        > moved to Minneapolis to avoid
        > revealing their finances because
        > of California laws.
        >
        > All this secret money stuff should
        > be enough of a clue that there's
        > something wrong with this group.
        >
        > As for clues to how Eckankar is
        > doing one can judge by the turn
        > out at local events. For one thing,
        > there are no youth except for a few
        > that were brought up in eckankar
        > families.
        >
        > When people try to hold events
        > such as intro talks hardly anybody
        > shows up. One H.I. from California
        > told a story on soul forum about
        > renting a hall for over 200 people
        > for an intro talk. His group advertised
        > in the papers, on the radio, and put
        > up posters all over the place. When
        > the day of the talk arrived, 3 people
        > showed up.
        >
        > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that
        > when they couldn't get enough new
        > people to come to their events, the
        > main office said there was something
        > wrong with the way they were presenting
        > the message.
        >
        > They even had a long drawn out
        > discussion on soul forum trying to
        > figure out why young people aren't
        > interested in Eckankar.
        >
        > The low turnout at events, no youth,
        > increased charges for audio and
        > video broadcasts of Klemp, and
        > the heavy handed advertising for
        > the World Wide are all indicators
        > that finances aren't what they used
        > to be.
        >
        > Regards
        > Liska
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Mish and All,
        > > Eckankar sales has probably dropped
        > > to about $2.5 million in annual
        > > membership and seminar donations
        > > worldwide. There is probably $500K
        > > per year in total projected material
        > > sales, but IMO this has fallen short
        > > to less than $300K. Of course, there
        > > are also those misc. gifted donations
        > > too that add to the treasury.
        > >
        > > I doubt that payroll and operating
        > > expenses (insurance, etc.) and equipment
        > > costs, etc. would be more than $1.5
        > > million in a normal year. And, since
        > > the EK church is tax exempt this helps
        > > to keep the overall operating costs
        > > low. Of course, this doesn't take into
        > > consideration the Klemps' salaries
        > > (retirement and other perks) or Peter's!
        > >
        > > And, let's face it... Seminars are Not
        > > money makers and this is why Regionals
        > > are being cancelled. These seminars
        > > deplete funds and don't bring in enough
        > > new members or sell enough materials
        > > to justify their existence. Before, each
        > > state or foreign country was to have
        > > one or two regional seminars per year!
        > >
        > > There is a real cash flow problem in
        > > Eckankar and this is why Klemp and
        > > Company are coming up with new ideas
        > > on how to bring in new money. The new
        > > photo with Klemp's goofy gaze and the
        > > increased costs on Internet Seminar
        > > talks are just the beginning.
        > >
        > > I suggested years ago that there be
        > > Condos built with shops (EK businesses)
        > > on the Temple grounds. Really, how much
        > > would that cost? Wouldn't that be a great
        > > money making tax exempt investment
        > > that would benefit everyone? Why is Klemp
        > > so fearful and/or stingy and has No vision
        > > for a real EK community? I guess Klemp
        > > wouldn't want to live near his chelas...
        > > after all HK's No Rebazar... but who is!
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Liska and All, I too served, as an Officer/Trustee, on our local Board, for many years, and under two RESAs. Our treasury had Well Over $50,000 because
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 2, 2008
          Hello Liska and All,
          I too served, as an Officer/Trustee,
          on our local Board, for many years,
          and under two RESAs.

          Our treasury had Well Over $50,000
          because most everything was pretty
          much pay-as-you-go. If it wasn't
          going to be profitable, in some way,
          then it wasn't done OR the expenses
          were paid for with extra, private,
          donations. There were a lot of those...
          by almost everyone who was "active"
          and we had a lot of volunteers and clerics!

          We, also, had all sorts of Board approved
          Satsang Projects and other methods
          of generating money.

          However, we too were always instructed
          to keep silent about finances and to
          avoid questions regarding money.

          Prometheus

          Liska wrote:
          Hi Prometheus
          At one time I served on the Satsang
          Society board. Our finances were
          about $13,000. It was the only time
          I was able learn about the amount
          of money in the society account and
          this was because we had to vote on
          how to spend it. Later on, after I
          stopped going to the meetings
          (I only went to one), it was back
          to secrecy. Once the new RESA took
          over, she said the finances were
          a mess, but would't reveal how much
          money there was in the account.

          Secrecy in Eckankar is one of its
          major components. They justify
          secrecy by invoking "The Law of
          Silence". This made up law is
          sacrosanct in Eckankar and it's
          used in all kinds of ways from
          covering up the lies and behavior
          of every Eck Master (Paul, Darwin,
          and Harold) to the non-disclosure
          of finances.

          Regards
          Liska

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello Liska and All,
          > It's really hard to know how much
          > EK money Klemp has squirreled
          > away. I made some guesses at the
          > amounts of monies that are NOW
          > being brought in and spent, but
          > how much has been accumulated
          > over time?
          >
          > The main EK Org has money in
          > banks, in stocks, bonds, and
          > property, but the Satsang
          > Societies (SS) have money in banks
          > and invested too! With around
          > 100 Satsang Societies it is hard
          > to know how much, of the ESC's
          > money, that Satsang Societies
          > still have in their possession.
          >
          > At one time the local Satsang Societies
          > were accumulating money in "Building
          > Funds." I'm wondering if this has changed.
          > And, since local EK Regional Seminars
          > are declining the money used for these
          > is Not being spent.
          >
          > Also, more money might be accumulating,
          > locally, since money is usually Not spent
          > on keeping local ECK Centers open. Local
          > EK Centers are to be self-sufficient. Thus,
          > the low number of local EK Centers. Klemp
          > doesn't really want (his) money spent in
          > this fashion. That's, also, why Klemp has
          > separate funds like a Missionary Fund and
          > a Building Fund! Why spend all of his (LEM)
          > money on these things when chelas spend
          > more of their money!
          >
          > Also, even when there were more Regional
          > Seminars many RESAs of these Satsang
          > Societies were encouraged (by Peter & Klemp)
          > to sent in a yearly amount (like a donation)
          > to the ESC from their Satsang's funds.
          > These were considered to be "excess funds."
          >
          > Even Bob Lawton's Connecticut Satsang
          > Society gives a yearly amount to the ESC.
          > And they have a "Temple" to fund! The ESC
          > even printed a picture once, in the Mystic
          > World, of Bob and some chelas handing over
          > a check for $2000 or so! How proud they
          > were!
          >
          > If every (100) Satsang Society gave $1000
          > per year that would be an extra $1 million
          > coming in (to Klemp). Many local ECKists
          > aren't even informed by their RESAs that
          > their "extra" money is being sent to the ESC!
          >
          > Many ECKists, still, don't realize that ALL
          > SATSANG SOCIETY MONEY belongs to
          > ECKANKAR! It's Not their money or their
          > TV's or their Tables, etc.... it ALL belongs
          > to Eckankar!
          >
          > Here's a good one. Even the books, photos,
          > CDs, tapes, jewelry, brochures, signs, and
          > all EK materials that are purchased by the
          > local EK Centers and Satsang Societies
          > actually belong to ECKANKAR. They buy
          > these items, with their own money, from
          > Eckankar and Eckankar ends up owning
          > it all including the "profits" from sales!
          >
          > So, if we take $30K (the ave. total in SS
          > bank accounts) and multiply that by 100
          > Satsang Societies we have, maybe, around
          > $30 million dollars, more or less, hidden
          > away (for a rainy day?) in local Satsang
          > Societies.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Liska wrote:
          > Since Eckankar is one of the most
          > secretive organizations, it's really
          > hard to say how they are doing
          > financially.
          >
          > We used to wonder why they
          > never sent us annual statements
          > like other religions. I heard they
          > moved to Minneapolis to avoid
          > revealing their finances because
          > of California laws.
          >
          > All this secret money stuff should
          > be enough of a clue that there's
          > something wrong with this group.
          >
          > As for clues to how Eckankar is
          > doing one can judge by the turn
          > out at local events. For one thing,
          > there are no youth except for a few
          > that were brought up in eckankar
          > families.
          >
          > When people try to hold events
          > such as intro talks hardly anybody
          > shows up. One H.I. from California
          > told a story on soul forum about
          > renting a hall for over 200 people
          > for an intro talk. His group advertised
          > in the papers, on the radio, and put
          > up posters all over the place. When
          > the day of the talk arrived, 3 people
          > showed up.
          >
          > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that
          > when they couldn't get enough new
          > people to come to their events, the
          > main office said there was something
          > wrong with the way they were presenting
          > the message.
          >
          > They even had a long drawn out
          > discussion on soul forum trying to
          > figure out why young people aren't
          > interested in Eckankar.
          >
          > The low turnout at events, no youth,
          > increased charges for audio and
          > video broadcasts of Klemp, and
          > the heavy handed advertising for
          > the World Wide are all indicators
          > that finances aren't what they used
          > to be.
          >
          > Regards
          > Liska
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Mish and All,
          > > Eckankar sales has probably dropped
          > > to about $2.5 million in annual
          > > membership and seminar donations
          > > worldwide. There is probably $500K
          > > per year in total projected material
          > > sales, but IMO this has fallen short
          > > to less than $300K. Of course, there
          > > are also those misc. gifted donations
          > > too that add to the treasury.
          > >
          > > I doubt that payroll and operating
          > > expenses (insurance, etc.) and equipment
          > > costs, etc. would be more than $1.5
          > > million in a normal year. And, since
          > > the EK church is tax exempt this helps
          > > to keep the overall operating costs
          > > low. Of course, this doesn't take into
          > > consideration the Klemps' salaries
          > > (retirement and other perks) or Peter's!
          > >
          > > And, let's face it... Seminars are Not
          > > money makers and this is why Regionals
          > > are being cancelled. These seminars
          > > deplete funds and don't bring in enough
          > > new members or sell enough materials
          > > to justify their existence. Before, each
          > > state or foreign country was to have
          > > one or two regional seminars per year!
          > >
          > > There is a real cash flow problem in
          > > Eckankar and this is why Klemp and
          > > Company are coming up with new ideas
          > > on how to bring in new money. The new
          > > photo with Klemp's goofy gaze and the
          > > increased costs on Internet Seminar
          > > talks are just the beginning.
          > >
          > > I suggested years ago that there be
          > > Condos built with shops (EK businesses)
          > > on the Temple grounds. Really, how much
          > > would that cost? Wouldn't that be a great
          > > money making tax exempt investment
          > > that would benefit everyone? Why is Klemp
          > > so fearful and/or stingy and has No vision
          > > for a real EK community? I guess Klemp
          > > wouldn't want to live near his chelas...
          > > after all HK's No Rebazar... but who is!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
        • Elizabeth
          ... local events. For one thing, there are no youth except for a few that were brought up in eckankar families. ****I was brought up in the teachings. I never
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 2, 2008
            Liska wrote:
             
            >As for clues to how Eckankar is doing one can judge by the turn out at
            local events. For one thing, there are no youth except for a few that
            were brought up in eckankar families.
             
            ****I was brought up in the teachings. I never met other eckist youth in school. I felt embarrassed to even share the teachings with my friends....  Why would any youth feel comfortable doing that, the other kids would think we were strange.  And to be honest, when I did share the religion our family belonged to with friends, they told me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing.  Kids now a days are not that much different from when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)  Most youth that attend seminars, local events etc,   do so because their parents have hauled them to the events and they enjoy hanging out with kids their own age. When I was attending the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual" entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call it brainwashing? 
             
            ****My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar conversation last night.  She is agnostic and I tend to lean that way now after leaving the path.  We believe something created "all this" but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions, as I did in school, including mythology, and other cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths, dogma...  And for me to state it was always difficult for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission coming from me..... So why did I stay for some many years?  LOL   
             
            Liska wrote:
            >When people try to hold events such as intro talks hardly anybody
            shows up. One H.I. from California told a story on soul forum about
            renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro talk. His group
            advertised in the papers, on the radio, and put up posters all over
            the place. When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.
             
            ****Yep, and guess who had to pay for these halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people if not enough would show up?  ESC surely didn't! 
             
            Liska wrote:
            >H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when they couldn't get enough new
            People to come to their events, the main office said there was
            Something wrong with the way they were presenting the message.
             
            ****How can that be, if the HI's were following the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is eckankar that people are not interested in, no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....    
             
            Liska wrote:
            >They even had a long drawn out discussion on soul forum trying to
            figure out why young people aren't interested in Eckankar.
             
            ****Part of it might be because the parents are more interested in their own spiritual growth, and trying to break the family karmic bond.... At least that was how it was in my family!  
             
            Liska wrote:
            The low turnout at events, no youth, increased charges for audio and
            video broadcasts of Klemp, and the heavy handed advertising for the
            World Wide are all indicators that finances aren't what they used to be.
             
            ****Yep.... And the membership isn't what it used to be either!  But you won't be able to convince some of those eckist that won't take off their rose colored glasses, or should I say blue?  ;-)
             
            No Love in Eck,
            Liz 
             
             
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Liz and Liska, Say Liska, what s this soul forum? Is it like the official/unofficial EK sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat? Who are the ones standing upon
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
              Hi Liz and Liska,
              Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"
              Is it like the official/unofficial EK
              sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?
              Who are the ones standing upon the
              pedestals over there? Are they narrow
              minded, narcissistic, delusional, and
              beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat
              and Chela Chat?

              In the below comments you mentioned
              about ECKists renting a 200 person hall
              in CA. and that only three newcomers
              showed up. It doesn't sound like the local
              EK chelas dragged in enough friends and
              family members! LOL!

              Of course, after several years of these EK
              events how many friends and relatives are
              left that are willing to go to these ECKie
              events and waste their time and money.
              These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...
              invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive
              over/down/up to California during the
              week of the EK event and then sucker
              them into attending "with you." Timing is
              everything!

              Years ago I read and heard of where
              one Satsang group in Miami was getting
              some very high turnouts at EK events.
              Of course, some of the numbers of "new
              people" were really repeats and numbers
              were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but
              the total number for a one year period
              was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What
              was even more incredible was that ONLY
              3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK
              Members from this incredibly large turnout
              and effort!

              Then again, I'm certain that the local EK
              Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that
              they could present these high numbers
              to the ESC. And, it could be that this is
              the real reason (finally after all these years)
              that there is now less effort being made
              to have Regional EK Seminars and other
              unrewarding expenditures of local EK
              (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon
              the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars
              and mailings. It seems to take awhile for
              things to trickle down to the troops in
              the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"
              communication of a "higher" consciousness
              (Klemp)! What a joke!

              Still, there is a suggested need for the
              Lower Plane "outer" work in order to
              receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.
              Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really
              just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied
              and distracted from thinking and asking
              questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense
              of purpose, and to make them feel needed
              by feeling good about themselves. It's also
              a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar
              has become more like a self-help group.
              It helps to teach chelas public speaking
              skills and, thus, self confidence (like
              Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries
              saving people (Souls), but they also become
              more pious and deluded.

              Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an
              attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well
              as, a drug that one needs to use and lean
              upon... forever!

              Prometheus

              Liska wrote:

              As for clues to how Eckankar is
              doing one can judge by the turn
              out at local events. For one thing,
              there are no youth except for a few
              that were brought up in eckankar
              families.

              LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.
              I never met other eckist youth in school.
              I felt embarrassed to even share the
              teachings with my friends.... Why would
              any youth feel comfortable doing that,
              the other kids would think we were strange.
              And to be honest, when I did share the religion
              our family belonged to with friends, they told
              me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids
              now a days are not that much different from
              when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)
              Most youth that attend seminars, local events
              etc, do so because their parents have hauled
              them to the events and they enjoy hanging out
              with kids their own age. When I was attending
              the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby
              sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted
              to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"
              entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call
              it brainwashing?

              LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar
              conversation last night. She is agnostic and
              I tend to lean that way now after leaving the
              path. We believe something created "all this"
              but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like
              Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,
              as I did in school, including mythology, and other
              cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,
              dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult
              for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because
              of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission
              coming from me..... So why did I stay for some
              many years? LOL



              Liska wrote:
              When people try to hold events such as intro
              talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from
              California told a story on soul forum about
              renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro
              talk. His group advertised in the papers, on
              the radio, and put up posters all over the place.
              When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.

              LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these
              halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people
              if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!

              Liska wrote:
              H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when
              they couldn't get enough new People to come
              to their events, the main office said there was
              Something wrong with the way they were presenting
              the message.

              LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following
              the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's
              pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is
              eckankar that people are not interested in,
              no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....



              Liska wrote:
              >They even had a long drawn out discussion
              on soul forum trying to figure out why young
              people aren't interested in Eckankar.

              LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents
              are more interested in their own spiritual growth,
              and trying to break the family karmic bond....
              At least that was how it was in my family!

              Liska wrote:
              The low turnout at events, no youth,
              increased charges for audio and
              video broadcasts of Klemp, and the
              heavy handed advertising for the
              World Wide are all indicators that
              finances aren't what they used to be.

              LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't
              what it used to be either! But you won't
              be able to convince some of those eckist
              that won't take off their rose colored glasses,
              or should I say blue? ;-)

              No Love in Eck,
              Liz
            • drubezarne
              Prometheus For those who haven t heard about soul forum, it s run by Doug Marman, Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with Doug to
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
                Prometheus

                For those who haven't heard about soul forum, it's run by Doug Marman,
                Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with
                Doug to sell his books and share in the profits. They're like a
                conglomorate who use soul forum as a way to make some money off
                unsuspecting H.I.'s. The H.I.'s are invited to join soul forum. Many
                feel like they're privileged to be part of this elite group which only
                allows H.I.'s into the sacred inner sanctum of Doug's domain.

                Regards
                Liska


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Liz and Liska,
                > Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"
                > Is it like the official/unofficial EK
                > sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?
                > Who are the ones standing upon the
                > pedestals over there? Are they narrow
                > minded, narcissistic, delusional, and
                > beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat
                > and Chela Chat?
                >
                > In the below comments you mentioned
                > about ECKists renting a 200 person hall
                > in CA. and that only three newcomers
                > showed up. It doesn't sound like the local
                > EK chelas dragged in enough friends and
                > family members! LOL!
                >
                > Of course, after several years of these EK
                > events how many friends and relatives are
                > left that are willing to go to these ECKie
                > events and waste their time and money.
                > These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...
                > invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive
                > over/down/up to California during the
                > week of the EK event and then sucker
                > them into attending "with you." Timing is
                > everything!
                >
                > Years ago I read and heard of where
                > one Satsang group in Miami was getting
                > some very high turnouts at EK events.
                > Of course, some of the numbers of "new
                > people" were really repeats and numbers
                > were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but
                > the total number for a one year period
                > was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What
                > was even more incredible was that ONLY
                > 3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK
                > Members from this incredibly large turnout
                > and effort!
                >
                > Then again, I'm certain that the local EK
                > Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that
                > they could present these high numbers
                > to the ESC. And, it could be that this is
                > the real reason (finally after all these years)
                > that there is now less effort being made
                > to have Regional EK Seminars and other
                > unrewarding expenditures of local EK
                > (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon
                > the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars
                > and mailings. It seems to take awhile for
                > things to trickle down to the troops in
                > the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"
                > communication of a "higher" consciousness
                > (Klemp)! What a joke!
                >
                > Still, there is a suggested need for the
                > Lower Plane "outer" work in order to
                > receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.
                > Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really
                > just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied
                > and distracted from thinking and asking
                > questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense
                > of purpose, and to make them feel needed
                > by feeling good about themselves. It's also
                > a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar
                > has become more like a self-help group.
                > It helps to teach chelas public speaking
                > skills and, thus, self confidence (like
                > Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries
                > saving people (Souls), but they also become
                > more pious and deluded.
                >
                > Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an
                > attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well
                > as, a drug that one needs to use and lean
                > upon... forever!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Liska wrote:
                >
                > As for clues to how Eckankar is
                > doing one can judge by the turn
                > out at local events. For one thing,
                > there are no youth except for a few
                > that were brought up in eckankar
                > families.
                >
                > LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.
                > I never met other eckist youth in school.
                > I felt embarrassed to even share the
                > teachings with my friends.... Why would
                > any youth feel comfortable doing that,
                > the other kids would think we were strange.
                > And to be honest, when I did share the religion
                > our family belonged to with friends, they told
                > me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids
                > now a days are not that much different from
                > when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)
                > Most youth that attend seminars, local events
                > etc, do so because their parents have hauled
                > them to the events and they enjoy hanging out
                > with kids their own age. When I was attending
                > the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby
                > sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted
                > to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"
                > entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call
                > it brainwashing?
                >
                > LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar
                > conversation last night. She is agnostic and
                > I tend to lean that way now after leaving the
                > path. We believe something created "all this"
                > but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like
                > Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,
                > as I did in school, including mythology, and other
                > cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,
                > dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult
                > for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because
                > of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission
                > coming from me..... So why did I stay for some
                > many years? LOL
                >
                >
                >
                > Liska wrote:
                > When people try to hold events such as intro
                > talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from
                > California told a story on soul forum about
                > renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro
                > talk. His group advertised in the papers, on
                > the radio, and put up posters all over the place.
                > When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.
                >
                > LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these
                > halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people
                > if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!
                >
                > Liska wrote:
                > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when
                > they couldn't get enough new People to come
                > to their events, the main office said there was
                > Something wrong with the way they were presenting
                > the message.
                >
                > LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following
                > the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's
                > pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is
                > eckankar that people are not interested in,
                > no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....
                >
                >
                >
                > Liska wrote:
                > >They even had a long drawn out discussion
                > on soul forum trying to figure out why young
                > people aren't interested in Eckankar.
                >
                > LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents
                > are more interested in their own spiritual growth,
                > and trying to break the family karmic bond....
                > At least that was how it was in my family!
                >
                > Liska wrote:
                > The low turnout at events, no youth,
                > increased charges for audio and
                > video broadcasts of Klemp, and the
                > heavy handed advertising for the
                > World Wide are all indicators that
                > finances aren't what they used to be.
                >
                > LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't
                > what it used to be either! But you won't
                > be able to convince some of those eckist
                > that won't take off their rose colored glasses,
                > or should I say blue? ;-)
                >
                > No Love in Eck,
                > Liz
                >
              • etznab@aol.com
                Is that the same as http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/forum/ or another site altogether? Etznab ... From: drubezarne To:
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
                  Is that the same as

                  http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/forum/

                  or another site altogether?

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 4:57 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot
                  the Messenger!



                  Prometheus



                  For those who haven't heard about soul forum, it's run by Doug Marman,

                  Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with

                  Doug to sell his books and share in the profits. They're like a

                  conglomorate who use soul forum as a way to make some money off

                  unsuspecting H.I.'s. The H.I.'s are invited to join soul forum. Many

                  feel like they're privileged to be part of this elite group which only

                  allows H.I.'s into the sacred inner sanctum of Doug's domain.



                  Regards

                  Liska



                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                  >

                  > Hi Liz and Liska,

                  > Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"

                  > Is it like the official/unofficial EK

                  > sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?

                  > Who are the ones standing upon the

                  > pedestals over there? Are they narrow

                  > minded, narcissistic, delusional, and

                  > beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat

                  > and Chela Chat?

                  >

                  > In the below comments you mentioned

                  > about ECKists renting a 200 person hall

                  > in CA. and that only three newcomers

                  > showed up. It doesn't sound like the local

                  > EK chelas dragged in enough friends and

                  > family members! LOL!

                  >

                  > Of course, after several years of these EK

                  > events how many friends and relatives are

                  > left that are willing to go to these ECKie

                  > events and waste their time and money.

                  > These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...

                  > invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive

                  > over/down/up to California during the

                  > week of the EK event and then sucker

                  > them into attending "with you." Timing is

                  > everything!

                  >

                  > Years ago I read and heard of where

                  > one Satsang group in Miami was getting

                  > some very high turnouts at EK events.

                  > Of course, some of the numbers of "new

                  > people" were really repeats and numbers

                  > were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but

                  > the total number for a one year period

                  > was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What

                  > was even more incredible was that ONLY

                  > 3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK

                  > Members from this incredibly large turnout

                  > and effort!

                  >

                  > Then again, I'm certain that the local EK

                  > Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that

                  > they could present these high numbers

                  > to the ESC. And, it could be that this is

                  > the real reason (finally after all these years)

                  > that there is now less effort being made

                  > to have Regional EK Seminars and other

                  > unrewarding expenditures of local EK

                  > (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon

                  > the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars

                  > and mailings. It seems to take awhile for

                  > things to trickle down to the troops in

                  > the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"

                  > communication of a "higher" consciousness

                  > (Klemp)! What a joke!

                  >

                  > Still, there is a suggested need for the

                  > Lower Plane "outer" work in order to

                  > receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.

                  > Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really

                  > just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied

                  > and distracted from thinking and asking

                  > questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense

                  > of purpose, and to make them feel needed

                  > by feeling good about themselves. It's also

                  > a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar

                  > has become more like a self-help group.

                  > It helps to teach chelas public speaking

                  > skills and, thus, self confidence (like

                  > Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries

                  > saving people (Souls), but they also become

                  > more pious and deluded.

                  >

                  > Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an

                  > attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well

                  > as, a drug that one needs to use and lean

                  > upon... forever!

                  >

                  > Prometheus

                  >

                  > Liska wrote:

                  >

                  > As for clues to how Eckankar is

                  > doing one can judge by the turn

                  > out at local events. For one thing,

                  > there are no youth except for a few

                  > that were brought up in eckankar

                  > families.

                  >

                  > LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.

                  > I never met other eckist youth in school.

                  > I felt embarrassed to even share the

                  > teachings with my friends.... Why would

                  > any youth feel comfortable doing that,

                  > the other kids would think we were strange.

                  > And to be honest, when I did share the religion

                  > our family belonged to with friends, they told

                  > me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids

                  > now a days are not that much different from

                  > when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)

                  > Most youth that attend seminars, local events

                  > etc, do so because their parents have hauled

                  > them to the events and they enjoy hanging out

                  > with kids their own age. When I was attending

                  > the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby

                  > sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted

                  > to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"

                  > entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call

                  > it brainwashing?

                  >

                  > LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar

                  > conversation last night. She is agnostic and

                  > I tend to lean that way now after leaving the

                  > path. We believe something created "all this"

                  > but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like

                  > Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,

                  > as I did in school, including mythology, and other

                  > cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,

                  > dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult

                  > for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because

                  > of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission

                  > coming from me..... So why did I stay for some

                  > many years? LOL

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > Liska wrote:

                  > When people try to hold events such as intro

                  > talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from

                  > California told a story on soul forum about

                  > renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro

                  > talk. His group advertised in the papers, on

                  > the radio, and put up posters all over the place.

                  > When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.

                  >

                  > LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these

                  > halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people

                  > if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!

                  >

                  > Liska wrote:

                  > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when

                  > they couldn't get enough new People to come

                  > to their events, the main office said there was

                  > Something wrong with the way they were presenting

                  > the message.

                  >

                  > LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following

                  > the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's

                  > pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is

                  > eckankar that people are not interested in,

                  > no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > Liska wrote:

                  > >They even had a long drawn out discussion

                  > on soul forum trying to figure out why young

                  > people aren't interested in Eckankar.

                  >

                  > LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents

                  > are more interested in their own spiritual growth,

                  > and trying to break the family karmic bond....

                  > At least that was how it was in my family!

                  >

                  > Liska wrote:

                  > The low turnout at events, no youth,

                  > increased charges for audio and

                  > video broadcasts of Klemp, and the

                  > heavy handed advertising for the

                  > World Wide are all indicators that

                  > finances aren't what they used to be.

                  >

                  > LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't

                  > what it used to be either! But you won't

                  > be able to convince some of those eckist

                  > that won't take off their rose colored glasses,

                  > or should I say blue? ;-)

                  >

                  > No Love in Eck,

                  > Liz

                  >
                • drubezarne
                  No, it s a Yahoo group that s only accessible to H.I.s they invite. I don t know what they re up to with this new forum group. Maybe they will let you join and
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
                    No, it's a Yahoo group that's only accessible to H.I.s they invite. I
                    don't know what they're up to with this new forum group. Maybe they
                    will let you join and you can tell us about it. The Yahoo group has
                    been in existence for about 10 years. They claim to have over 90
                    H.I.s. I think that they're also counting people like me that have
                    left soul forum. H.I.s are susceptible to ego stroking like having
                    titles, duties, and sacred duties (ha ha). You can see why they would
                    find a secret forum with an elitist flavor delightful.

                    Regards
                    Liska

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Is that the same as
                    >
                    > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/forum/
                    >
                    > or another site altogether?
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 4:57 pm
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot
                    > the Messenger!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > For those who haven't heard about soul forum, it's run by Doug Marman,
                    >
                    > Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with
                    >
                    > Doug to sell his books and share in the profits. They're like a
                    >
                    > conglomorate who use soul forum as a way to make some money off
                    >
                    > unsuspecting H.I.'s. The H.I.'s are invited to join soul forum. Many
                    >
                    > feel like they're privileged to be part of this elite group which only
                    >
                    > allows H.I.'s into the sacred inner sanctum of Doug's domain.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > Liska
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    >
                    > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Hi Liz and Liska,
                    >
                    > > Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"
                    >
                    > > Is it like the official/unofficial EK
                    >
                    > > sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?
                    >
                    > > Who are the ones standing upon the
                    >
                    > > pedestals over there? Are they narrow
                    >
                    > > minded, narcissistic, delusional, and
                    >
                    > > beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat
                    >
                    > > and Chela Chat?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > In the below comments you mentioned
                    >
                    > > about ECKists renting a 200 person hall
                    >
                    > > in CA. and that only three newcomers
                    >
                    > > showed up. It doesn't sound like the local
                    >
                    > > EK chelas dragged in enough friends and
                    >
                    > > family members! LOL!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Of course, after several years of these EK
                    >
                    > > events how many friends and relatives are
                    >
                    > > left that are willing to go to these ECKie
                    >
                    > > events and waste their time and money.
                    >
                    > > These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...
                    >
                    > > invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive
                    >
                    > > over/down/up to California during the
                    >
                    > > week of the EK event and then sucker
                    >
                    > > them into attending "with you." Timing is
                    >
                    > > everything!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Years ago I read and heard of where
                    >
                    > > one Satsang group in Miami was getting
                    >
                    > > some very high turnouts at EK events.
                    >
                    > > Of course, some of the numbers of "new
                    >
                    > > people" were really repeats and numbers
                    >
                    > > were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but
                    >
                    > > the total number for a one year period
                    >
                    > > was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What
                    >
                    > > was even more incredible was that ONLY
                    >
                    > > 3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK
                    >
                    > > Members from this incredibly large turnout
                    >
                    > > and effort!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Then again, I'm certain that the local EK
                    >
                    > > Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that
                    >
                    > > they could present these high numbers
                    >
                    > > to the ESC. And, it could be that this is
                    >
                    > > the real reason (finally after all these years)
                    >
                    > > that there is now less effort being made
                    >
                    > > to have Regional EK Seminars and other
                    >
                    > > unrewarding expenditures of local EK
                    >
                    > > (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon
                    >
                    > > the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars
                    >
                    > > and mailings. It seems to take awhile for
                    >
                    > > things to trickle down to the troops in
                    >
                    > > the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"
                    >
                    > > communication of a "higher" consciousness
                    >
                    > > (Klemp)! What a joke!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Still, there is a suggested need for the
                    >
                    > > Lower Plane "outer" work in order to
                    >
                    > > receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.
                    >
                    > > Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really
                    >
                    > > just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied
                    >
                    > > and distracted from thinking and asking
                    >
                    > > questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense
                    >
                    > > of purpose, and to make them feel needed
                    >
                    > > by feeling good about themselves. It's also
                    >
                    > > a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar
                    >
                    > > has become more like a self-help group.
                    >
                    > > It helps to teach chelas public speaking
                    >
                    > > skills and, thus, self confidence (like
                    >
                    > > Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries
                    >
                    > > saving people (Souls), but they also become
                    >
                    > > more pious and deluded.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an
                    >
                    > > attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well
                    >
                    > > as, a drug that one needs to use and lean
                    >
                    > > upon... forever!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Prometheus
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Liska wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > As for clues to how Eckankar is
                    >
                    > > doing one can judge by the turn
                    >
                    > > out at local events. For one thing,
                    >
                    > > there are no youth except for a few
                    >
                    > > that were brought up in eckankar
                    >
                    > > families.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.
                    >
                    > > I never met other eckist youth in school.
                    >
                    > > I felt embarrassed to even share the
                    >
                    > > teachings with my friends.... Why would
                    >
                    > > any youth feel comfortable doing that,
                    >
                    > > the other kids would think we were strange.
                    >
                    > > And to be honest, when I did share the religion
                    >
                    > > our family belonged to with friends, they told
                    >
                    > > me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids
                    >
                    > > now a days are not that much different from
                    >
                    > > when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)
                    >
                    > > Most youth that attend seminars, local events
                    >
                    > > etc, do so because their parents have hauled
                    >
                    > > them to the events and they enjoy hanging out
                    >
                    > > with kids their own age. When I was attending
                    >
                    > > the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby
                    >
                    > > sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted
                    >
                    > > to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"
                    >
                    > > entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call
                    >
                    > > it brainwashing?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar
                    >
                    > > conversation last night. She is agnostic and
                    >
                    > > I tend to lean that way now after leaving the
                    >
                    > > path. We believe something created "all this"
                    >
                    > > but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like
                    >
                    > > Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,
                    >
                    > > as I did in school, including mythology, and other
                    >
                    > > cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,
                    >
                    > > dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult
                    >
                    > > for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because
                    >
                    > > of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission
                    >
                    > > coming from me..... So why did I stay for some
                    >
                    > > many years? LOL
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Liska wrote:
                    >
                    > > When people try to hold events such as intro
                    >
                    > > talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from
                    >
                    > > California told a story on soul forum about
                    >
                    > > renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro
                    >
                    > > talk. His group advertised in the papers, on
                    >
                    > > the radio, and put up posters all over the place.
                    >
                    > > When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these
                    >
                    > > halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people
                    >
                    > > if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Liska wrote:
                    >
                    > > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when
                    >
                    > > they couldn't get enough new People to come
                    >
                    > > to their events, the main office said there was
                    >
                    > > Something wrong with the way they were presenting
                    >
                    > > the message.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following
                    >
                    > > the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's
                    >
                    > > pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is
                    >
                    > > eckankar that people are not interested in,
                    >
                    > > no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Liska wrote:
                    >
                    > > >They even had a long drawn out discussion
                    >
                    > > on soul forum trying to figure out why young
                    >
                    > > people aren't interested in Eckankar.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents
                    >
                    > > are more interested in their own spiritual growth,
                    >
                    > > and trying to break the family karmic bond....
                    >
                    > > At least that was how it was in my family!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Liska wrote:
                    >
                    > > The low turnout at events, no youth,
                    >
                    > > increased charges for audio and
                    >
                    > > video broadcasts of Klemp, and the
                    >
                    > > heavy handed advertising for the
                    >
                    > > World Wide are all indicators that
                    >
                    > > finances aren't what they used to be.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't
                    >
                    > > what it used to be either! But you won't
                    >
                    > > be able to convince some of those eckist
                    >
                    > > that won't take off their rose colored glasses,
                    >
                    > > or should I say blue? ;-)
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > No Love in Eck,
                    >
                    > > Liz
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Liska, Thanks for sharing about that. I had no idea it existed. No, I don t think they would let me join. I m not a H.I. Etznab ... From: drubezarne
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
                      Liska,

                      Thanks for sharing about that. I had no
                      idea it existed.

                      No, I don't think they would let me join.
                      I'm not a H.I.

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 5:53 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot
                      the Messenger!



                      No, it's a Yahoo group that's only accessible to H.I.s they invite. I

                      don't know what they're up to with this new forum group. Maybe they

                      will let you join and you can tell us about it. The Yahoo group has

                      been in existence for about 10 years. They claim to have over 90

                      H.I.s. I think that they're also counting people like me that have

                      left soul forum. H.I.s are susceptible to ego stroking like having

                      titles, duties, and sacred duties (ha ha). You can see why they would

                      find a secret forum with an elitist flavor delightful.



                      Regards

                      Liska



                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:

                      >

                      > Is that the same as

                      >

                      > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/forum/

                      >

                      > or another site altogether?

                      >

                      > Etznab

                      >

                      > -----Original Message-----

                      > From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>

                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                      > Sent: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 4:57 pm

                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't
                      Shoot

                      > the Messenger!

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Prometheus

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > For those who haven't heard about soul forum, it's run by Doug
                      Marman,

                      >

                      > Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with

                      >

                      > Doug to sell his books and share in the profits. They're like a

                      >

                      > conglomorate who use soul forum as a way to make some money off

                      >

                      > unsuspecting H.I.'s. The H.I.'s are invited to join soul forum.
                      Many

                      >

                      > feel like they're privileged to be part of this elite group which
                      only

                      >

                      > allows H.I.'s into the sacred inner sanctum of Doug's domain.

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Regards

                      >

                      > Liska

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

                      >

                      > prometheus_973@ wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Hi Liz and Liska,

                      >

                      > > Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"

                      >

                      > > Is it like the official/unofficial EK

                      >

                      > > sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?

                      >

                      > > Who are the ones standing upon the

                      >

                      > > pedestals over there? Are they narrow

                      >

                      > > minded, narcissistic, delusional, and

                      >

                      > > beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat

                      >

                      > > and Chela Chat?

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > In the below comments you mentioned

                      >

                      > > about ECKists renting a 200 person hall

                      >

                      > > in CA. and that only three newcomers

                      >

                      > > showed up. It doesn't sound like the local

                      >

                      > > EK chelas dragged in enough friends and

                      >

                      > > family members! LOL!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Of course, after several years of these EK

                      >

                      > > events how many friends and relatives are

                      >

                      > > left that are willing to go to these ECKie

                      >

                      > > events and waste their time and money.

                      >

                      > > These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...

                      >

                      > > invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive

                      >

                      > > over/down/up to California during the

                      >

                      > > week of the EK event and then sucker

                      >

                      > > them into attending "with you." Timing is

                      >

                      > > everything!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Years ago I read and heard of where

                      >

                      > > one Satsang group in Miami was getting

                      >

                      > > some very high turnouts at EK events.

                      >

                      > > Of course, some of the numbers of "new

                      >

                      > > people" were really repeats and numbers

                      >

                      > > were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but

                      >

                      > > the total number for a one year period

                      >

                      > > was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What

                      >

                      > > was even more incredible was that ONLY

                      >

                      > > 3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK

                      >

                      > > Members from this incredibly large turnout

                      >

                      > > and effort!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Then again, I'm certain that the local EK

                      >

                      > > Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that

                      >

                      > > they could present these high numbers

                      >

                      > > to the ESC. And, it could be that this is

                      >

                      > > the real reason (finally after all these years)

                      >

                      > > that there is now less effort being made

                      >

                      > > to have Regional EK Seminars and other

                      >

                      > > unrewarding expenditures of local EK

                      >

                      > > (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon

                      >

                      > > the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars

                      >

                      > > and mailings. It seems to take awhile for

                      >

                      > > things to trickle down to the troops in

                      >

                      > > the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"

                      >

                      > > communication of a "higher" consciousness

                      >

                      > > (Klemp)! What a joke!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Still, there is a suggested need for the

                      >

                      > > Lower Plane "outer" work in order to

                      >

                      > > receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.

                      >

                      > > Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really

                      >

                      > > just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied

                      >

                      > > and distracted from thinking and asking

                      >

                      > > questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense

                      >

                      > > of purpose, and to make them feel needed

                      >

                      > > by feeling good about themselves. It's also

                      >

                      > > a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar

                      >

                      > > has become more like a self-help group.

                      >

                      > > It helps to teach chelas public speaking

                      >

                      > > skills and, thus, self confidence (like

                      >

                      > > Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries

                      >

                      > > saving people (Souls), but they also become

                      >

                      > > more pious and deluded.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an

                      >

                      > > attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well

                      >

                      > > as, a drug that one needs to use and lean

                      >

                      > > upon... forever!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Prometheus

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Liska wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > As for clues to how Eckankar is

                      >

                      > > doing one can judge by the turn

                      >

                      > > out at local events. For one thing,

                      >

                      > > there are no youth except for a few

                      >

                      > > that were brought up in eckankar

                      >

                      > > families.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.

                      >

                      > > I never met other eckist youth in school.

                      >

                      > > I felt embarrassed to even share the

                      >

                      > > teachings with my friends.... Why would

                      >

                      > > any youth feel comfortable doing that,

                      >

                      > > the other kids would think we were strange.

                      >

                      > > And to be honest, when I did share the religion

                      >

                      > > our family belonged to with friends, they told

                      >

                      > > me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids

                      >

                      > > now a days are not that much different from

                      >

                      > > when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)

                      >

                      > > Most youth that attend seminars, local events

                      >

                      > > etc, do so because their parents have hauled

                      >

                      > > them to the events and they enjoy hanging out

                      >

                      > > with kids their own age. When I was attending

                      >

                      > > the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby

                      >

                      > > sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted

                      >

                      > > to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"

                      >

                      > > entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call

                      >

                      > > it brainwashing?

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar

                      >

                      > > conversation last night. She is agnostic and

                      >

                      > > I tend to lean that way now after leaving the

                      >

                      > > path. We believe something created "all this"

                      >

                      > > but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like

                      >

                      > > Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,

                      >

                      > > as I did in school, including mythology, and other

                      >

                      > > cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,

                      >

                      > > dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult

                      >

                      > > for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because

                      >

                      > > of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission

                      >

                      > > coming from me..... So why did I stay for some

                      >

                      > > many years? LOL

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Liska wrote:

                      >

                      > > When people try to hold events such as intro

                      >

                      > > talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from

                      >

                      > > California told a story on soul forum about

                      >

                      > > renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro

                      >

                      > > talk. His group advertised in the papers, on

                      >

                      > > the radio, and put up posters all over the place.

                      >

                      > > When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these

                      >

                      > > halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people

                      >

                      > > if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Liska wrote:

                      >

                      > > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when

                      >

                      > > they couldn't get enough new People to come

                      >

                      > > to their events, the main office said there was

                      >

                      > > Something wrong with the way they were presenting

                      >

                      > > the message.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following

                      >

                      > > the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's

                      >

                      > > pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is

                      >

                      > > eckankar that people are not interested in,

                      >

                      > > no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Liska wrote:

                      >

                      > > >They even had a long drawn out discussion

                      >

                      > > on soul forum trying to figure out why young

                      >

                      > > people aren't interested in Eckankar.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents

                      >

                      > > are more interested in their own spiritual growth,

                      >

                      > > and trying to break the family karmic bond....

                      >

                      > > At least that was how it was in my family!

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Liska wrote:

                      >

                      > > The low turnout at events, no youth,

                      >

                      > > increased charges for audio and

                      >

                      > > video broadcasts of Klemp, and the

                      >

                      > > heavy handed advertising for the

                      >

                      > > World Wide are all indicators that

                      >

                      > > finances aren't what they used to be.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't

                      >

                      > > what it used to be either! But you won't

                      >

                      > > be able to convince some of those eckist

                      >

                      > > that won't take off their rose colored glasses,

                      >

                      > > or should I say blue? ;-)

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > No Love in Eck,

                      >

                      > > Liz

                      >

                      > >

                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Etznab and All, Just because you re not an H.I. doesn t mean you can t join. What do they require for membership... a quote from the most recent H.I.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 5, 2008
                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        Just because you're not an H.I. doesn't
                        mean you can't join. What do they require
                        for membership... a quote from the most
                        recent H.I. Letter?

                        I guess they, also, may want your "real name"
                        and location so they can ask around about
                        you. Still, there are many H.I.s who aren't
                        in the EK spotlight and don't want to be.
                        They want their privacy.

                        And, I'm not sure that the ESC would provide
                        them membership info. Eckankar membership
                        info and one's "rank" are supposed to remain
                        private. Of course I could be wrong as to what
                        membership info is being shared. Klemp has
                        never really been specific on anything.

                        After all, at one time, ECKists were supposed
                        to keep their "spiritual stories" private as well,
                        and we can see how Klemp has "changed" that
                        policy too!

                        Prometheus


                        etznab@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Liska,
                        >
                        > Thanks for sharing about that. I had no
                        > idea it existed.
                        >
                        > No, I don't think they would let me join.
                        > I'm not a H.I.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot the Messenger!

                        No, it's a Yahoo group that's only accessible
                        to H.I.s they invite. I don't know what they're
                        up to with this new forum group. Maybe they
                        will let you join and you can tell us about it.
                        The Yahoo group has been in existence for
                        about 10 years. They claim to have over 90
                        H.I.s. I think that they're also counting people
                        like me that have left soul forum. H.I.s are
                        susceptible to ego stroking like having
                        titles, duties, and sacred duties (ha ha).
                        You can see why they would find a secret
                        forum with an elitist flavor delightful.

                        Regards
                        >
                        Liska
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.