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Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot the Messenger!

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  • drubezarne
    Since Eckankar is one of the most secretive organizations, it s really hard to say how they are doing financially. We used to wonder why they never sent us
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 1, 2008
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      Since Eckankar is one of the most secretive organizations, it's really
      hard to say how they are doing financially. We used to wonder why they
      never sent us annual statements like other religions. I heard they
      moved to Minneapolis to avoid revealing their finances because of
      California laws. All this secret money stuff should be enough of a
      clue that there's something wrong with this group.

      As for clues to how Eckankar is doing one can judge by the turn out at
      local events. For one thing, there are no youth except for a few that
      were brought up in eckankar families.

      When people try to hold events such as intro talks hardly anybody
      shows up. One H.I. from California told a story on soul forum about
      renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro talk. His group
      advertised in the papers, on the radio, and put up posters all over
      the place. When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.

      H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when they couldn't get enough new
      people to come to their events, the main office said there was
      something wrong with the way they were presenting the message.

      They even had a long drawn out discussion on soul forum trying to
      figure out why young people aren't interested in Eckankar.

      The low turnout at events, no youth, increased charges for audio and
      video broadcasts of Klemp, and the heavy handed advertising for the
      World Wide are all indicators that finances aren't what they used to be.

      Regards
      Liska

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Mish and All,
      > Eckankar sales has probably dropped
      > to about $2.5 million in annual
      > membership and seminar donations
      > worldwide. There is probably $500K
      > per year in total projected material
      > sales, but IMO this has fallen short
      > to less than $300K. Of course, there
      > are also those misc. gifted donations
      > too that add to the treasury.
      >
      > I doubt that payroll and operating
      > expenses (insurance, etc.) and equipment
      > costs, etc. would be more than $1.5
      > million in a normal year. And, since
      > the EK church is tax exempt this helps
      > to keep the overall operating costs
      > low. Of course, this doesn't take into
      > consideration the Klemps' salaries
      > (retirement and other perks) or Peter's!
      >
      > And, let's face it... Seminars are Not
      > money makers and this is why Regionals
      > are being cancelled. These seminars
      > deplete funds and don't bring in enough
      > new members or sell enough materials
      > to justify their existence. Before, each
      > state or foreign country was to have
      > one or two regional seminars per year!
      >
      > There is a real cash flow problem in
      > Eckankar and this is why Klemp and
      > Company are coming up with new ideas
      > on how to bring in new money. The new
      > photo with Klemp's goofy gaze and the
      > increased costs on Internet Seminar
      > talks are just the beginning.
      >
      > I suggested years ago that there be
      > Condos built with shops (EK businesses)
      > on the Temple grounds. Really, how much
      > would that cost? Wouldn't that be a great
      > money making tax exempt investment
      > that would benefit everyone? Why is Klemp
      > so fearful and/or stingy and has No vision
      > for a real EK community? I guess Klemp
      > wouldn't want to live near his chelas...
      > after all HK's No Rebazar... but who is!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > mish wrote:
      >
      > Hi, All!
      > >
      > I actually wonder why they built such
      > a garish temple when it is so little used.
      > It's kind of like a tomb with a few live
      > bodies (workers) moving around in it.
      > It just doesn't seem that the buildings
      > are well utilized to justify the expense
      > of building and maintaining the temple
      > and the other structures.
      > >
      > As to increasing costs for their merchandise,
      > that doesn't seem wise either when so many
      > chelas are struggling to maintain the status
      > quo. Well, many eckists are used to being poor
      > and doing without . . . one day, perhaps, they
      > will realize they can do without Klemp and eckankar
      > too!
      >
      > Mish
      > >
      > etznab wrote:
      > > >
      > E.S.A.
      > > >
      > It's just a guess, but I don't know
      > what the annual income is compared
      > to other years, and relative to new
      > spending and building projects.
      > > >
      > There would have to be an annual
      > budget, I presume, just to keep
      > everything running; for upkeep
      > of the buildings and employee wages.
      > > >
      > This is what I guess, that if annual
      > donations don't remain constant, or
      > begin to fall below what is required to
      > run Eckankar annualy there would be
      > a deficit. More money would be needed,
      > somehow, someway, IMO.
      > > >
      > I can't judge what membership is
      > like today compared to years past,
      > but not every local Eck community
      > is "growing" (taking on members)
      > very fast, IMO. Some might even be
      > getting smaller.
      > > >
      > Basically I'm saying that there is
      > probably a "financial constant" for
      > the running of Eckankar annually.
      > The headquarters, at least. There
      > has probably been a relative level
      > of "constant donations" too.
      > > >
      > My guess is that the general cost
      > of things might be influenced by the
      > relationship between what is coming
      > in and what is going out. If you know
      > what I mean.
      > > >
      > Etznab
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Liska and All, It s really hard to know how much EK money Klemp has squirreled away. I made some guesses at the amounts of monies that are NOW being
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 1, 2008
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        Hello Liska and All,
        It's really hard to know how much
        EK money Klemp has squirreled
        away. I made some guesses at the
        amounts of monies that are NOW
        being brought in and spent, but
        how much has been accumulated
        over time?

        The main EK Org has money in
        banks, in stocks, bonds, and
        property, but the Satsang
        Societies (SS) have money in banks
        and invested too! With around
        100 Satsang Societies it is hard
        to know how much, of the ESC's
        money, that Satsang Societies
        still have in their possession.

        At one time the local Satsang Societies
        were accumulating money in "Building
        Funds." I'm wondering if this has changed.
        And, since local EK Regional Seminars
        are declining the money used for these
        is Not being spent.

        Also, more money might be accumulating,
        locally, since money is usually Not spent
        on keeping local ECK Centers open. Local
        EK Centers are to be self-sufficient. Thus,
        the low number of local EK Centers. Klemp
        doesn't really want (his) money spent in
        this fashion. That's, also, why Klemp has
        separate funds like a Missionary Fund and
        a Building Fund! Why spend all of his (LEM)
        money on these things when chelas spend
        more of their money!

        Also, even when there were more Regional
        Seminars many RESAs of these Satsang
        Societies were encouraged (by Peter & Klemp)
        to sent in a yearly amount (like a donation)
        to the ESC from their Satsang's funds.
        These were considered to be "excess funds."

        Even Bob Lawton's Connecticut Satsang
        Society gives a yearly amount to the ESC.
        And they have a "Temple" to fund! The ESC
        even printed a picture once, in the Mystic
        World, of Bob and some chelas handing over
        a check for $2000 or so! How proud they
        were!

        If every (100) Satsang Society gave $1000
        per year that would be an extra $1 million
        coming in (to Klemp). Many local ECKists
        aren't even informed by their RESAs that
        their "extra" money is being sent to the ESC!

        Many ECKists, still, don't realize that ALL
        SATSANG SOCIETY MONEY belongs to
        ECKANKAR! It's Not their money or their
        TV's or their Tables, etc.... it ALL belongs
        to Eckankar!

        Here's a good one. Even the books, photos,
        CDs, tapes, jewelry, brochures, signs, and
        all EK materials that are purchased by the
        local EK Centers and Satsang Societies
        actually belong to ECKANKAR. They buy
        these items, with their own money, from
        Eckankar and Eckankar ends up owning
        it all including the "profits" from sales!

        So, if we take $30K (the ave. total in SS
        bank accounts) and multiply that by 100
        Satsang Societies we have, maybe, around
        $30 million dollars, more or less, hidden
        away (for a rainy day?) in local Satsang
        Societies.

        Prometheus


        Liska wrote:
        Since Eckankar is one of the most
        secretive organizations, it's really
        hard to say how they are doing
        financially.

        We used to wonder why they
        never sent us annual statements
        like other religions. I heard they
        moved to Minneapolis to avoid
        revealing their finances because
        of California laws.

        All this secret money stuff should
        be enough of a clue that there's
        something wrong with this group.

        As for clues to how Eckankar is
        doing one can judge by the turn
        out at local events. For one thing,
        there are no youth except for a few
        that were brought up in eckankar
        families.

        When people try to hold events
        such as intro talks hardly anybody
        shows up. One H.I. from California
        told a story on soul forum about
        renting a hall for over 200 people
        for an intro talk. His group advertised
        in the papers, on the radio, and put
        up posters all over the place. When
        the day of the talk arrived, 3 people
        showed up.

        H.I.'s on soul forum complained that
        when they couldn't get enough new
        people to come to their events, the
        main office said there was something
        wrong with the way they were presenting
        the message.

        They even had a long drawn out
        discussion on soul forum trying to
        figure out why young people aren't
        interested in Eckankar.

        The low turnout at events, no youth,
        increased charges for audio and
        video broadcasts of Klemp, and
        the heavy handed advertising for
        the World Wide are all indicators
        that finances aren't what they used
        to be.

        Regards
        Liska

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello Mish and All,
        > Eckankar sales has probably dropped
        > to about $2.5 million in annual
        > membership and seminar donations
        > worldwide. There is probably $500K
        > per year in total projected material
        > sales, but IMO this has fallen short
        > to less than $300K. Of course, there
        > are also those misc. gifted donations
        > too that add to the treasury.
        >
        > I doubt that payroll and operating
        > expenses (insurance, etc.) and equipment
        > costs, etc. would be more than $1.5
        > million in a normal year. And, since
        > the EK church is tax exempt this helps
        > to keep the overall operating costs
        > low. Of course, this doesn't take into
        > consideration the Klemps' salaries
        > (retirement and other perks) or Peter's!
        >
        > And, let's face it... Seminars are Not
        > money makers and this is why Regionals
        > are being cancelled. These seminars
        > deplete funds and don't bring in enough
        > new members or sell enough materials
        > to justify their existence. Before, each
        > state or foreign country was to have
        > one or two regional seminars per year!
        >
        > There is a real cash flow problem in
        > Eckankar and this is why Klemp and
        > Company are coming up with new ideas
        > on how to bring in new money. The new
        > photo with Klemp's goofy gaze and the
        > increased costs on Internet Seminar
        > talks are just the beginning.
        >
        > I suggested years ago that there be
        > Condos built with shops (EK businesses)
        > on the Temple grounds. Really, how much
        > would that cost? Wouldn't that be a great
        > money making tax exempt investment
        > that would benefit everyone? Why is Klemp
        > so fearful and/or stingy and has No vision
        > for a real EK community? I guess Klemp
        > wouldn't want to live near his chelas...
        > after all HK's No Rebazar... but who is!
        >
        > Prometheus
      • drubezarne
        Hi Prometheus At one time I served on the Satsang Society board. Our finances were about $13,000. It was the only time I was able learn about the amount of
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 2, 2008
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          Hi Prometheus
          At one time I served on the Satsang Society board. Our finances were
          about $13,000. It was the only time I was able learn about the amount
          of money in the society account and this was because we had to vote on
          how to spend it. Later on, after I stopped going to the meetings (I
          only went to one), it was back to secrecy. Once the new RESA took
          over, she said the finances were a mess, but would't reveal how much
          money there was in the account.

          Secrecy in Eckankar is one of its major components. They justify
          secrecy by invoking "The Law of Silence". This made up law is
          sacrosanct in Eckankar and it's used in all kinds of ways from
          covering up the lies and behavior of every Eck Master (Paul, Darwin,
          and Harold) to the non-disclosure of finances.

          Regards
          Liska

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Liska and All,
          > It's really hard to know how much
          > EK money Klemp has squirreled
          > away. I made some guesses at the
          > amounts of monies that are NOW
          > being brought in and spent, but
          > how much has been accumulated
          > over time?
          >
          > The main EK Org has money in
          > banks, in stocks, bonds, and
          > property, but the Satsang
          > Societies (SS) have money in banks
          > and invested too! With around
          > 100 Satsang Societies it is hard
          > to know how much, of the ESC's
          > money, that Satsang Societies
          > still have in their possession.
          >
          > At one time the local Satsang Societies
          > were accumulating money in "Building
          > Funds." I'm wondering if this has changed.
          > And, since local EK Regional Seminars
          > are declining the money used for these
          > is Not being spent.
          >
          > Also, more money might be accumulating,
          > locally, since money is usually Not spent
          > on keeping local ECK Centers open. Local
          > EK Centers are to be self-sufficient. Thus,
          > the low number of local EK Centers. Klemp
          > doesn't really want (his) money spent in
          > this fashion. That's, also, why Klemp has
          > separate funds like a Missionary Fund and
          > a Building Fund! Why spend all of his (LEM)
          > money on these things when chelas spend
          > more of their money!
          >
          > Also, even when there were more Regional
          > Seminars many RESAs of these Satsang
          > Societies were encouraged (by Peter & Klemp)
          > to sent in a yearly amount (like a donation)
          > to the ESC from their Satsang's funds.
          > These were considered to be "excess funds."
          >
          > Even Bob Lawton's Connecticut Satsang
          > Society gives a yearly amount to the ESC.
          > And they have a "Temple" to fund! The ESC
          > even printed a picture once, in the Mystic
          > World, of Bob and some chelas handing over
          > a check for $2000 or so! How proud they
          > were!
          >
          > If every (100) Satsang Society gave $1000
          > per year that would be an extra $1 million
          > coming in (to Klemp). Many local ECKists
          > aren't even informed by their RESAs that
          > their "extra" money is being sent to the ESC!
          >
          > Many ECKists, still, don't realize that ALL
          > SATSANG SOCIETY MONEY belongs to
          > ECKANKAR! It's Not their money or their
          > TV's or their Tables, etc.... it ALL belongs
          > to Eckankar!
          >
          > Here's a good one. Even the books, photos,
          > CDs, tapes, jewelry, brochures, signs, and
          > all EK materials that are purchased by the
          > local EK Centers and Satsang Societies
          > actually belong to ECKANKAR. They buy
          > these items, with their own money, from
          > Eckankar and Eckankar ends up owning
          > it all including the "profits" from sales!
          >
          > So, if we take $30K (the ave. total in SS
          > bank accounts) and multiply that by 100
          > Satsang Societies we have, maybe, around
          > $30 million dollars, more or less, hidden
          > away (for a rainy day?) in local Satsang
          > Societies.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Liska wrote:
          > Since Eckankar is one of the most
          > secretive organizations, it's really
          > hard to say how they are doing
          > financially.
          >
          > We used to wonder why they
          > never sent us annual statements
          > like other religions. I heard they
          > moved to Minneapolis to avoid
          > revealing their finances because
          > of California laws.
          >
          > All this secret money stuff should
          > be enough of a clue that there's
          > something wrong with this group.
          >
          > As for clues to how Eckankar is
          > doing one can judge by the turn
          > out at local events. For one thing,
          > there are no youth except for a few
          > that were brought up in eckankar
          > families.
          >
          > When people try to hold events
          > such as intro talks hardly anybody
          > shows up. One H.I. from California
          > told a story on soul forum about
          > renting a hall for over 200 people
          > for an intro talk. His group advertised
          > in the papers, on the radio, and put
          > up posters all over the place. When
          > the day of the talk arrived, 3 people
          > showed up.
          >
          > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that
          > when they couldn't get enough new
          > people to come to their events, the
          > main office said there was something
          > wrong with the way they were presenting
          > the message.
          >
          > They even had a long drawn out
          > discussion on soul forum trying to
          > figure out why young people aren't
          > interested in Eckankar.
          >
          > The low turnout at events, no youth,
          > increased charges for audio and
          > video broadcasts of Klemp, and
          > the heavy handed advertising for
          > the World Wide are all indicators
          > that finances aren't what they used
          > to be.
          >
          > Regards
          > Liska
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Mish and All,
          > > Eckankar sales has probably dropped
          > > to about $2.5 million in annual
          > > membership and seminar donations
          > > worldwide. There is probably $500K
          > > per year in total projected material
          > > sales, but IMO this has fallen short
          > > to less than $300K. Of course, there
          > > are also those misc. gifted donations
          > > too that add to the treasury.
          > >
          > > I doubt that payroll and operating
          > > expenses (insurance, etc.) and equipment
          > > costs, etc. would be more than $1.5
          > > million in a normal year. And, since
          > > the EK church is tax exempt this helps
          > > to keep the overall operating costs
          > > low. Of course, this doesn't take into
          > > consideration the Klemps' salaries
          > > (retirement and other perks) or Peter's!
          > >
          > > And, let's face it... Seminars are Not
          > > money makers and this is why Regionals
          > > are being cancelled. These seminars
          > > deplete funds and don't bring in enough
          > > new members or sell enough materials
          > > to justify their existence. Before, each
          > > state or foreign country was to have
          > > one or two regional seminars per year!
          > >
          > > There is a real cash flow problem in
          > > Eckankar and this is why Klemp and
          > > Company are coming up with new ideas
          > > on how to bring in new money. The new
          > > photo with Klemp's goofy gaze and the
          > > increased costs on Internet Seminar
          > > talks are just the beginning.
          > >
          > > I suggested years ago that there be
          > > Condos built with shops (EK businesses)
          > > on the Temple grounds. Really, how much
          > > would that cost? Wouldn't that be a great
          > > money making tax exempt investment
          > > that would benefit everyone? Why is Klemp
          > > so fearful and/or stingy and has No vision
          > > for a real EK community? I guess Klemp
          > > wouldn't want to live near his chelas...
          > > after all HK's No Rebazar... but who is!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Liska and All, I too served, as an Officer/Trustee, on our local Board, for many years, and under two RESAs. Our treasury had Well Over $50,000 because
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 2, 2008
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            Hello Liska and All,
            I too served, as an Officer/Trustee,
            on our local Board, for many years,
            and under two RESAs.

            Our treasury had Well Over $50,000
            because most everything was pretty
            much pay-as-you-go. If it wasn't
            going to be profitable, in some way,
            then it wasn't done OR the expenses
            were paid for with extra, private,
            donations. There were a lot of those...
            by almost everyone who was "active"
            and we had a lot of volunteers and clerics!

            We, also, had all sorts of Board approved
            Satsang Projects and other methods
            of generating money.

            However, we too were always instructed
            to keep silent about finances and to
            avoid questions regarding money.

            Prometheus

            Liska wrote:
            Hi Prometheus
            At one time I served on the Satsang
            Society board. Our finances were
            about $13,000. It was the only time
            I was able learn about the amount
            of money in the society account and
            this was because we had to vote on
            how to spend it. Later on, after I
            stopped going to the meetings
            (I only went to one), it was back
            to secrecy. Once the new RESA took
            over, she said the finances were
            a mess, but would't reveal how much
            money there was in the account.

            Secrecy in Eckankar is one of its
            major components. They justify
            secrecy by invoking "The Law of
            Silence". This made up law is
            sacrosanct in Eckankar and it's
            used in all kinds of ways from
            covering up the lies and behavior
            of every Eck Master (Paul, Darwin,
            and Harold) to the non-disclosure
            of finances.

            Regards
            Liska

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Liska and All,
            > It's really hard to know how much
            > EK money Klemp has squirreled
            > away. I made some guesses at the
            > amounts of monies that are NOW
            > being brought in and spent, but
            > how much has been accumulated
            > over time?
            >
            > The main EK Org has money in
            > banks, in stocks, bonds, and
            > property, but the Satsang
            > Societies (SS) have money in banks
            > and invested too! With around
            > 100 Satsang Societies it is hard
            > to know how much, of the ESC's
            > money, that Satsang Societies
            > still have in their possession.
            >
            > At one time the local Satsang Societies
            > were accumulating money in "Building
            > Funds." I'm wondering if this has changed.
            > And, since local EK Regional Seminars
            > are declining the money used for these
            > is Not being spent.
            >
            > Also, more money might be accumulating,
            > locally, since money is usually Not spent
            > on keeping local ECK Centers open. Local
            > EK Centers are to be self-sufficient. Thus,
            > the low number of local EK Centers. Klemp
            > doesn't really want (his) money spent in
            > this fashion. That's, also, why Klemp has
            > separate funds like a Missionary Fund and
            > a Building Fund! Why spend all of his (LEM)
            > money on these things when chelas spend
            > more of their money!
            >
            > Also, even when there were more Regional
            > Seminars many RESAs of these Satsang
            > Societies were encouraged (by Peter & Klemp)
            > to sent in a yearly amount (like a donation)
            > to the ESC from their Satsang's funds.
            > These were considered to be "excess funds."
            >
            > Even Bob Lawton's Connecticut Satsang
            > Society gives a yearly amount to the ESC.
            > And they have a "Temple" to fund! The ESC
            > even printed a picture once, in the Mystic
            > World, of Bob and some chelas handing over
            > a check for $2000 or so! How proud they
            > were!
            >
            > If every (100) Satsang Society gave $1000
            > per year that would be an extra $1 million
            > coming in (to Klemp). Many local ECKists
            > aren't even informed by their RESAs that
            > their "extra" money is being sent to the ESC!
            >
            > Many ECKists, still, don't realize that ALL
            > SATSANG SOCIETY MONEY belongs to
            > ECKANKAR! It's Not their money or their
            > TV's or their Tables, etc.... it ALL belongs
            > to Eckankar!
            >
            > Here's a good one. Even the books, photos,
            > CDs, tapes, jewelry, brochures, signs, and
            > all EK materials that are purchased by the
            > local EK Centers and Satsang Societies
            > actually belong to ECKANKAR. They buy
            > these items, with their own money, from
            > Eckankar and Eckankar ends up owning
            > it all including the "profits" from sales!
            >
            > So, if we take $30K (the ave. total in SS
            > bank accounts) and multiply that by 100
            > Satsang Societies we have, maybe, around
            > $30 million dollars, more or less, hidden
            > away (for a rainy day?) in local Satsang
            > Societies.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > Liska wrote:
            > Since Eckankar is one of the most
            > secretive organizations, it's really
            > hard to say how they are doing
            > financially.
            >
            > We used to wonder why they
            > never sent us annual statements
            > like other religions. I heard they
            > moved to Minneapolis to avoid
            > revealing their finances because
            > of California laws.
            >
            > All this secret money stuff should
            > be enough of a clue that there's
            > something wrong with this group.
            >
            > As for clues to how Eckankar is
            > doing one can judge by the turn
            > out at local events. For one thing,
            > there are no youth except for a few
            > that were brought up in eckankar
            > families.
            >
            > When people try to hold events
            > such as intro talks hardly anybody
            > shows up. One H.I. from California
            > told a story on soul forum about
            > renting a hall for over 200 people
            > for an intro talk. His group advertised
            > in the papers, on the radio, and put
            > up posters all over the place. When
            > the day of the talk arrived, 3 people
            > showed up.
            >
            > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that
            > when they couldn't get enough new
            > people to come to their events, the
            > main office said there was something
            > wrong with the way they were presenting
            > the message.
            >
            > They even had a long drawn out
            > discussion on soul forum trying to
            > figure out why young people aren't
            > interested in Eckankar.
            >
            > The low turnout at events, no youth,
            > increased charges for audio and
            > video broadcasts of Klemp, and
            > the heavy handed advertising for
            > the World Wide are all indicators
            > that finances aren't what they used
            > to be.
            >
            > Regards
            > Liska
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Mish and All,
            > > Eckankar sales has probably dropped
            > > to about $2.5 million in annual
            > > membership and seminar donations
            > > worldwide. There is probably $500K
            > > per year in total projected material
            > > sales, but IMO this has fallen short
            > > to less than $300K. Of course, there
            > > are also those misc. gifted donations
            > > too that add to the treasury.
            > >
            > > I doubt that payroll and operating
            > > expenses (insurance, etc.) and equipment
            > > costs, etc. would be more than $1.5
            > > million in a normal year. And, since
            > > the EK church is tax exempt this helps
            > > to keep the overall operating costs
            > > low. Of course, this doesn't take into
            > > consideration the Klemps' salaries
            > > (retirement and other perks) or Peter's!
            > >
            > > And, let's face it... Seminars are Not
            > > money makers and this is why Regionals
            > > are being cancelled. These seminars
            > > deplete funds and don't bring in enough
            > > new members or sell enough materials
            > > to justify their existence. Before, each
            > > state or foreign country was to have
            > > one or two regional seminars per year!
            > >
            > > There is a real cash flow problem in
            > > Eckankar and this is why Klemp and
            > > Company are coming up with new ideas
            > > on how to bring in new money. The new
            > > photo with Klemp's goofy gaze and the
            > > increased costs on Internet Seminar
            > > talks are just the beginning.
            > >
            > > I suggested years ago that there be
            > > Condos built with shops (EK businesses)
            > > on the Temple grounds. Really, how much
            > > would that cost? Wouldn't that be a great
            > > money making tax exempt investment
            > > that would benefit everyone? Why is Klemp
            > > so fearful and/or stingy and has No vision
            > > for a real EK community? I guess Klemp
            > > wouldn't want to live near his chelas...
            > > after all HK's No Rebazar... but who is!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
          • Elizabeth
            ... local events. For one thing, there are no youth except for a few that were brought up in eckankar families. ****I was brought up in the teachings. I never
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 2, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Liska wrote:
               
              >As for clues to how Eckankar is doing one can judge by the turn out at
              local events. For one thing, there are no youth except for a few that
              were brought up in eckankar families.
               
              ****I was brought up in the teachings. I never met other eckist youth in school. I felt embarrassed to even share the teachings with my friends....  Why would any youth feel comfortable doing that, the other kids would think we were strange.  And to be honest, when I did share the religion our family belonged to with friends, they told me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing.  Kids now a days are not that much different from when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)  Most youth that attend seminars, local events etc,   do so because their parents have hauled them to the events and they enjoy hanging out with kids their own age. When I was attending the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual" entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call it brainwashing? 
               
              ****My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar conversation last night.  She is agnostic and I tend to lean that way now after leaving the path.  We believe something created "all this" but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions, as I did in school, including mythology, and other cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths, dogma...  And for me to state it was always difficult for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission coming from me..... So why did I stay for some many years?  LOL   
               
              Liska wrote:
              >When people try to hold events such as intro talks hardly anybody
              shows up. One H.I. from California told a story on soul forum about
              renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro talk. His group
              advertised in the papers, on the radio, and put up posters all over
              the place. When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.
               
              ****Yep, and guess who had to pay for these halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people if not enough would show up?  ESC surely didn't! 
               
              Liska wrote:
              >H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when they couldn't get enough new
              People to come to their events, the main office said there was
              Something wrong with the way they were presenting the message.
               
              ****How can that be, if the HI's were following the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is eckankar that people are not interested in, no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....    
               
              Liska wrote:
              >They even had a long drawn out discussion on soul forum trying to
              figure out why young people aren't interested in Eckankar.
               
              ****Part of it might be because the parents are more interested in their own spiritual growth, and trying to break the family karmic bond.... At least that was how it was in my family!  
               
              Liska wrote:
              The low turnout at events, no youth, increased charges for audio and
              video broadcasts of Klemp, and the heavy handed advertising for the
              World Wide are all indicators that finances aren't what they used to be.
               
              ****Yep.... And the membership isn't what it used to be either!  But you won't be able to convince some of those eckist that won't take off their rose colored glasses, or should I say blue?  ;-)
               
              No Love in Eck,
              Liz 
               
               
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Liz and Liska, Say Liska, what s this soul forum? Is it like the official/unofficial EK sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat? Who are the ones standing upon
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Liz and Liska,
                Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"
                Is it like the official/unofficial EK
                sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?
                Who are the ones standing upon the
                pedestals over there? Are they narrow
                minded, narcissistic, delusional, and
                beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat
                and Chela Chat?

                In the below comments you mentioned
                about ECKists renting a 200 person hall
                in CA. and that only three newcomers
                showed up. It doesn't sound like the local
                EK chelas dragged in enough friends and
                family members! LOL!

                Of course, after several years of these EK
                events how many friends and relatives are
                left that are willing to go to these ECKie
                events and waste their time and money.
                These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...
                invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive
                over/down/up to California during the
                week of the EK event and then sucker
                them into attending "with you." Timing is
                everything!

                Years ago I read and heard of where
                one Satsang group in Miami was getting
                some very high turnouts at EK events.
                Of course, some of the numbers of "new
                people" were really repeats and numbers
                were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but
                the total number for a one year period
                was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What
                was even more incredible was that ONLY
                3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK
                Members from this incredibly large turnout
                and effort!

                Then again, I'm certain that the local EK
                Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that
                they could present these high numbers
                to the ESC. And, it could be that this is
                the real reason (finally after all these years)
                that there is now less effort being made
                to have Regional EK Seminars and other
                unrewarding expenditures of local EK
                (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon
                the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars
                and mailings. It seems to take awhile for
                things to trickle down to the troops in
                the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"
                communication of a "higher" consciousness
                (Klemp)! What a joke!

                Still, there is a suggested need for the
                Lower Plane "outer" work in order to
                receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.
                Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really
                just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied
                and distracted from thinking and asking
                questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense
                of purpose, and to make them feel needed
                by feeling good about themselves. It's also
                a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar
                has become more like a self-help group.
                It helps to teach chelas public speaking
                skills and, thus, self confidence (like
                Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries
                saving people (Souls), but they also become
                more pious and deluded.

                Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an
                attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well
                as, a drug that one needs to use and lean
                upon... forever!

                Prometheus

                Liska wrote:

                As for clues to how Eckankar is
                doing one can judge by the turn
                out at local events. For one thing,
                there are no youth except for a few
                that were brought up in eckankar
                families.

                LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.
                I never met other eckist youth in school.
                I felt embarrassed to even share the
                teachings with my friends.... Why would
                any youth feel comfortable doing that,
                the other kids would think we were strange.
                And to be honest, when I did share the religion
                our family belonged to with friends, they told
                me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids
                now a days are not that much different from
                when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)
                Most youth that attend seminars, local events
                etc, do so because their parents have hauled
                them to the events and they enjoy hanging out
                with kids their own age. When I was attending
                the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby
                sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted
                to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"
                entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call
                it brainwashing?

                LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar
                conversation last night. She is agnostic and
                I tend to lean that way now after leaving the
                path. We believe something created "all this"
                but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like
                Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,
                as I did in school, including mythology, and other
                cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,
                dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult
                for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because
                of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission
                coming from me..... So why did I stay for some
                many years? LOL



                Liska wrote:
                When people try to hold events such as intro
                talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from
                California told a story on soul forum about
                renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro
                talk. His group advertised in the papers, on
                the radio, and put up posters all over the place.
                When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.

                LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these
                halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people
                if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!

                Liska wrote:
                H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when
                they couldn't get enough new People to come
                to their events, the main office said there was
                Something wrong with the way they were presenting
                the message.

                LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following
                the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's
                pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is
                eckankar that people are not interested in,
                no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....



                Liska wrote:
                >They even had a long drawn out discussion
                on soul forum trying to figure out why young
                people aren't interested in Eckankar.

                LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents
                are more interested in their own spiritual growth,
                and trying to break the family karmic bond....
                At least that was how it was in my family!

                Liska wrote:
                The low turnout at events, no youth,
                increased charges for audio and
                video broadcasts of Klemp, and the
                heavy handed advertising for the
                World Wide are all indicators that
                finances aren't what they used to be.

                LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't
                what it used to be either! But you won't
                be able to convince some of those eckist
                that won't take off their rose colored glasses,
                or should I say blue? ;-)

                No Love in Eck,
                Liz
              • drubezarne
                Prometheus For those who haven t heard about soul forum, it s run by Doug Marman, Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with Doug to
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Prometheus

                  For those who haven't heard about soul forum, it's run by Doug Marman,
                  Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with
                  Doug to sell his books and share in the profits. They're like a
                  conglomorate who use soul forum as a way to make some money off
                  unsuspecting H.I.'s. The H.I.'s are invited to join soul forum. Many
                  feel like they're privileged to be part of this elite group which only
                  allows H.I.'s into the sacred inner sanctum of Doug's domain.

                  Regards
                  Liska


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Liz and Liska,
                  > Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"
                  > Is it like the official/unofficial EK
                  > sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?
                  > Who are the ones standing upon the
                  > pedestals over there? Are they narrow
                  > minded, narcissistic, delusional, and
                  > beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat
                  > and Chela Chat?
                  >
                  > In the below comments you mentioned
                  > about ECKists renting a 200 person hall
                  > in CA. and that only three newcomers
                  > showed up. It doesn't sound like the local
                  > EK chelas dragged in enough friends and
                  > family members! LOL!
                  >
                  > Of course, after several years of these EK
                  > events how many friends and relatives are
                  > left that are willing to go to these ECKie
                  > events and waste their time and money.
                  > These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...
                  > invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive
                  > over/down/up to California during the
                  > week of the EK event and then sucker
                  > them into attending "with you." Timing is
                  > everything!
                  >
                  > Years ago I read and heard of where
                  > one Satsang group in Miami was getting
                  > some very high turnouts at EK events.
                  > Of course, some of the numbers of "new
                  > people" were really repeats and numbers
                  > were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but
                  > the total number for a one year period
                  > was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What
                  > was even more incredible was that ONLY
                  > 3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK
                  > Members from this incredibly large turnout
                  > and effort!
                  >
                  > Then again, I'm certain that the local EK
                  > Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that
                  > they could present these high numbers
                  > to the ESC. And, it could be that this is
                  > the real reason (finally after all these years)
                  > that there is now less effort being made
                  > to have Regional EK Seminars and other
                  > unrewarding expenditures of local EK
                  > (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon
                  > the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars
                  > and mailings. It seems to take awhile for
                  > things to trickle down to the troops in
                  > the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"
                  > communication of a "higher" consciousness
                  > (Klemp)! What a joke!
                  >
                  > Still, there is a suggested need for the
                  > Lower Plane "outer" work in order to
                  > receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.
                  > Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really
                  > just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied
                  > and distracted from thinking and asking
                  > questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense
                  > of purpose, and to make them feel needed
                  > by feeling good about themselves. It's also
                  > a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar
                  > has become more like a self-help group.
                  > It helps to teach chelas public speaking
                  > skills and, thus, self confidence (like
                  > Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries
                  > saving people (Souls), but they also become
                  > more pious and deluded.
                  >
                  > Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an
                  > attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well
                  > as, a drug that one needs to use and lean
                  > upon... forever!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > Liska wrote:
                  >
                  > As for clues to how Eckankar is
                  > doing one can judge by the turn
                  > out at local events. For one thing,
                  > there are no youth except for a few
                  > that were brought up in eckankar
                  > families.
                  >
                  > LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.
                  > I never met other eckist youth in school.
                  > I felt embarrassed to even share the
                  > teachings with my friends.... Why would
                  > any youth feel comfortable doing that,
                  > the other kids would think we were strange.
                  > And to be honest, when I did share the religion
                  > our family belonged to with friends, they told
                  > me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids
                  > now a days are not that much different from
                  > when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)
                  > Most youth that attend seminars, local events
                  > etc, do so because their parents have hauled
                  > them to the events and they enjoy hanging out
                  > with kids their own age. When I was attending
                  > the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby
                  > sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted
                  > to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"
                  > entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call
                  > it brainwashing?
                  >
                  > LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar
                  > conversation last night. She is agnostic and
                  > I tend to lean that way now after leaving the
                  > path. We believe something created "all this"
                  > but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like
                  > Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,
                  > as I did in school, including mythology, and other
                  > cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,
                  > dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult
                  > for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because
                  > of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission
                  > coming from me..... So why did I stay for some
                  > many years? LOL
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Liska wrote:
                  > When people try to hold events such as intro
                  > talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from
                  > California told a story on soul forum about
                  > renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro
                  > talk. His group advertised in the papers, on
                  > the radio, and put up posters all over the place.
                  > When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.
                  >
                  > LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these
                  > halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people
                  > if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!
                  >
                  > Liska wrote:
                  > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when
                  > they couldn't get enough new People to come
                  > to their events, the main office said there was
                  > Something wrong with the way they were presenting
                  > the message.
                  >
                  > LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following
                  > the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's
                  > pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is
                  > eckankar that people are not interested in,
                  > no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Liska wrote:
                  > >They even had a long drawn out discussion
                  > on soul forum trying to figure out why young
                  > people aren't interested in Eckankar.
                  >
                  > LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents
                  > are more interested in their own spiritual growth,
                  > and trying to break the family karmic bond....
                  > At least that was how it was in my family!
                  >
                  > Liska wrote:
                  > The low turnout at events, no youth,
                  > increased charges for audio and
                  > video broadcasts of Klemp, and the
                  > heavy handed advertising for the
                  > World Wide are all indicators that
                  > finances aren't what they used to be.
                  >
                  > LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't
                  > what it used to be either! But you won't
                  > be able to convince some of those eckist
                  > that won't take off their rose colored glasses,
                  > or should I say blue? ;-)
                  >
                  > No Love in Eck,
                  > Liz
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Is that the same as http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/forum/ or another site altogether? Etznab ... From: drubezarne To:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Is that the same as

                    http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/forum/

                    or another site altogether?

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 4:57 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot
                    the Messenger!



                    Prometheus



                    For those who haven't heard about soul forum, it's run by Doug Marman,

                    Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with

                    Doug to sell his books and share in the profits. They're like a

                    conglomorate who use soul forum as a way to make some money off

                    unsuspecting H.I.'s. The H.I.'s are invited to join soul forum. Many

                    feel like they're privileged to be part of this elite group which only

                    allows H.I.'s into the sacred inner sanctum of Doug's domain.



                    Regards

                    Liska



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    >

                    > Hi Liz and Liska,

                    > Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"

                    > Is it like the official/unofficial EK

                    > sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?

                    > Who are the ones standing upon the

                    > pedestals over there? Are they narrow

                    > minded, narcissistic, delusional, and

                    > beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat

                    > and Chela Chat?

                    >

                    > In the below comments you mentioned

                    > about ECKists renting a 200 person hall

                    > in CA. and that only three newcomers

                    > showed up. It doesn't sound like the local

                    > EK chelas dragged in enough friends and

                    > family members! LOL!

                    >

                    > Of course, after several years of these EK

                    > events how many friends and relatives are

                    > left that are willing to go to these ECKie

                    > events and waste their time and money.

                    > These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...

                    > invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive

                    > over/down/up to California during the

                    > week of the EK event and then sucker

                    > them into attending "with you." Timing is

                    > everything!

                    >

                    > Years ago I read and heard of where

                    > one Satsang group in Miami was getting

                    > some very high turnouts at EK events.

                    > Of course, some of the numbers of "new

                    > people" were really repeats and numbers

                    > were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but

                    > the total number for a one year period

                    > was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What

                    > was even more incredible was that ONLY

                    > 3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK

                    > Members from this incredibly large turnout

                    > and effort!

                    >

                    > Then again, I'm certain that the local EK

                    > Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that

                    > they could present these high numbers

                    > to the ESC. And, it could be that this is

                    > the real reason (finally after all these years)

                    > that there is now less effort being made

                    > to have Regional EK Seminars and other

                    > unrewarding expenditures of local EK

                    > (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon

                    > the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars

                    > and mailings. It seems to take awhile for

                    > things to trickle down to the troops in

                    > the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"

                    > communication of a "higher" consciousness

                    > (Klemp)! What a joke!

                    >

                    > Still, there is a suggested need for the

                    > Lower Plane "outer" work in order to

                    > receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.

                    > Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really

                    > just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied

                    > and distracted from thinking and asking

                    > questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense

                    > of purpose, and to make them feel needed

                    > by feeling good about themselves. It's also

                    > a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar

                    > has become more like a self-help group.

                    > It helps to teach chelas public speaking

                    > skills and, thus, self confidence (like

                    > Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries

                    > saving people (Souls), but they also become

                    > more pious and deluded.

                    >

                    > Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an

                    > attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well

                    > as, a drug that one needs to use and lean

                    > upon... forever!

                    >

                    > Prometheus

                    >

                    > Liska wrote:

                    >

                    > As for clues to how Eckankar is

                    > doing one can judge by the turn

                    > out at local events. For one thing,

                    > there are no youth except for a few

                    > that were brought up in eckankar

                    > families.

                    >

                    > LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.

                    > I never met other eckist youth in school.

                    > I felt embarrassed to even share the

                    > teachings with my friends.... Why would

                    > any youth feel comfortable doing that,

                    > the other kids would think we were strange.

                    > And to be honest, when I did share the religion

                    > our family belonged to with friends, they told

                    > me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids

                    > now a days are not that much different from

                    > when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)

                    > Most youth that attend seminars, local events

                    > etc, do so because their parents have hauled

                    > them to the events and they enjoy hanging out

                    > with kids their own age. When I was attending

                    > the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby

                    > sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted

                    > to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"

                    > entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call

                    > it brainwashing?

                    >

                    > LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar

                    > conversation last night. She is agnostic and

                    > I tend to lean that way now after leaving the

                    > path. We believe something created "all this"

                    > but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like

                    > Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,

                    > as I did in school, including mythology, and other

                    > cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,

                    > dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult

                    > for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because

                    > of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission

                    > coming from me..... So why did I stay for some

                    > many years? LOL

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Liska wrote:

                    > When people try to hold events such as intro

                    > talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from

                    > California told a story on soul forum about

                    > renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro

                    > talk. His group advertised in the papers, on

                    > the radio, and put up posters all over the place.

                    > When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.

                    >

                    > LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these

                    > halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people

                    > if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!

                    >

                    > Liska wrote:

                    > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when

                    > they couldn't get enough new People to come

                    > to their events, the main office said there was

                    > Something wrong with the way they were presenting

                    > the message.

                    >

                    > LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following

                    > the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's

                    > pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is

                    > eckankar that people are not interested in,

                    > no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Liska wrote:

                    > >They even had a long drawn out discussion

                    > on soul forum trying to figure out why young

                    > people aren't interested in Eckankar.

                    >

                    > LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents

                    > are more interested in their own spiritual growth,

                    > and trying to break the family karmic bond....

                    > At least that was how it was in my family!

                    >

                    > Liska wrote:

                    > The low turnout at events, no youth,

                    > increased charges for audio and

                    > video broadcasts of Klemp, and the

                    > heavy handed advertising for the

                    > World Wide are all indicators that

                    > finances aren't what they used to be.

                    >

                    > LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't

                    > what it used to be either! But you won't

                    > be able to convince some of those eckist

                    > that won't take off their rose colored glasses,

                    > or should I say blue? ;-)

                    >

                    > No Love in Eck,

                    > Liz

                    >
                  • drubezarne
                    No, it s a Yahoo group that s only accessible to H.I.s they invite. I don t know what they re up to with this new forum group. Maybe they will let you join and
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      No, it's a Yahoo group that's only accessible to H.I.s they invite. I
                      don't know what they're up to with this new forum group. Maybe they
                      will let you join and you can tell us about it. The Yahoo group has
                      been in existence for about 10 years. They claim to have over 90
                      H.I.s. I think that they're also counting people like me that have
                      left soul forum. H.I.s are susceptible to ego stroking like having
                      titles, duties, and sacred duties (ha ha). You can see why they would
                      find a secret forum with an elitist flavor delightful.

                      Regards
                      Liska

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Is that the same as
                      >
                      > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/forum/
                      >
                      > or another site altogether?
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 4:57 pm
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot
                      > the Messenger!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > For those who haven't heard about soul forum, it's run by Doug Marman,
                      >
                      > Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with
                      >
                      > Doug to sell his books and share in the profits. They're like a
                      >
                      > conglomorate who use soul forum as a way to make some money off
                      >
                      > unsuspecting H.I.'s. The H.I.'s are invited to join soul forum. Many
                      >
                      > feel like they're privileged to be part of this elite group which only
                      >
                      > allows H.I.'s into the sacred inner sanctum of Doug's domain.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Liska
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      >
                      > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Hi Liz and Liska,
                      >
                      > > Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"
                      >
                      > > Is it like the official/unofficial EK
                      >
                      > > sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?
                      >
                      > > Who are the ones standing upon the
                      >
                      > > pedestals over there? Are they narrow
                      >
                      > > minded, narcissistic, delusional, and
                      >
                      > > beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat
                      >
                      > > and Chela Chat?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > In the below comments you mentioned
                      >
                      > > about ECKists renting a 200 person hall
                      >
                      > > in CA. and that only three newcomers
                      >
                      > > showed up. It doesn't sound like the local
                      >
                      > > EK chelas dragged in enough friends and
                      >
                      > > family members! LOL!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Of course, after several years of these EK
                      >
                      > > events how many friends and relatives are
                      >
                      > > left that are willing to go to these ECKie
                      >
                      > > events and waste their time and money.
                      >
                      > > These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...
                      >
                      > > invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive
                      >
                      > > over/down/up to California during the
                      >
                      > > week of the EK event and then sucker
                      >
                      > > them into attending "with you." Timing is
                      >
                      > > everything!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Years ago I read and heard of where
                      >
                      > > one Satsang group in Miami was getting
                      >
                      > > some very high turnouts at EK events.
                      >
                      > > Of course, some of the numbers of "new
                      >
                      > > people" were really repeats and numbers
                      >
                      > > were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but
                      >
                      > > the total number for a one year period
                      >
                      > > was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What
                      >
                      > > was even more incredible was that ONLY
                      >
                      > > 3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK
                      >
                      > > Members from this incredibly large turnout
                      >
                      > > and effort!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Then again, I'm certain that the local EK
                      >
                      > > Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that
                      >
                      > > they could present these high numbers
                      >
                      > > to the ESC. And, it could be that this is
                      >
                      > > the real reason (finally after all these years)
                      >
                      > > that there is now less effort being made
                      >
                      > > to have Regional EK Seminars and other
                      >
                      > > unrewarding expenditures of local EK
                      >
                      > > (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon
                      >
                      > > the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars
                      >
                      > > and mailings. It seems to take awhile for
                      >
                      > > things to trickle down to the troops in
                      >
                      > > the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"
                      >
                      > > communication of a "higher" consciousness
                      >
                      > > (Klemp)! What a joke!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Still, there is a suggested need for the
                      >
                      > > Lower Plane "outer" work in order to
                      >
                      > > receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.
                      >
                      > > Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really
                      >
                      > > just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied
                      >
                      > > and distracted from thinking and asking
                      >
                      > > questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense
                      >
                      > > of purpose, and to make them feel needed
                      >
                      > > by feeling good about themselves. It's also
                      >
                      > > a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar
                      >
                      > > has become more like a self-help group.
                      >
                      > > It helps to teach chelas public speaking
                      >
                      > > skills and, thus, self confidence (like
                      >
                      > > Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries
                      >
                      > > saving people (Souls), but they also become
                      >
                      > > more pious and deluded.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an
                      >
                      > > attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well
                      >
                      > > as, a drug that one needs to use and lean
                      >
                      > > upon... forever!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Prometheus
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Liska wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > As for clues to how Eckankar is
                      >
                      > > doing one can judge by the turn
                      >
                      > > out at local events. For one thing,
                      >
                      > > there are no youth except for a few
                      >
                      > > that were brought up in eckankar
                      >
                      > > families.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.
                      >
                      > > I never met other eckist youth in school.
                      >
                      > > I felt embarrassed to even share the
                      >
                      > > teachings with my friends.... Why would
                      >
                      > > any youth feel comfortable doing that,
                      >
                      > > the other kids would think we were strange.
                      >
                      > > And to be honest, when I did share the religion
                      >
                      > > our family belonged to with friends, they told
                      >
                      > > me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids
                      >
                      > > now a days are not that much different from
                      >
                      > > when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)
                      >
                      > > Most youth that attend seminars, local events
                      >
                      > > etc, do so because their parents have hauled
                      >
                      > > them to the events and they enjoy hanging out
                      >
                      > > with kids their own age. When I was attending
                      >
                      > > the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby
                      >
                      > > sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted
                      >
                      > > to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"
                      >
                      > > entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call
                      >
                      > > it brainwashing?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar
                      >
                      > > conversation last night. She is agnostic and
                      >
                      > > I tend to lean that way now after leaving the
                      >
                      > > path. We believe something created "all this"
                      >
                      > > but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like
                      >
                      > > Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,
                      >
                      > > as I did in school, including mythology, and other
                      >
                      > > cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,
                      >
                      > > dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult
                      >
                      > > for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because
                      >
                      > > of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission
                      >
                      > > coming from me..... So why did I stay for some
                      >
                      > > many years? LOL
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Liska wrote:
                      >
                      > > When people try to hold events such as intro
                      >
                      > > talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from
                      >
                      > > California told a story on soul forum about
                      >
                      > > renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro
                      >
                      > > talk. His group advertised in the papers, on
                      >
                      > > the radio, and put up posters all over the place.
                      >
                      > > When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these
                      >
                      > > halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people
                      >
                      > > if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Liska wrote:
                      >
                      > > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when
                      >
                      > > they couldn't get enough new People to come
                      >
                      > > to their events, the main office said there was
                      >
                      > > Something wrong with the way they were presenting
                      >
                      > > the message.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following
                      >
                      > > the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's
                      >
                      > > pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is
                      >
                      > > eckankar that people are not interested in,
                      >
                      > > no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Liska wrote:
                      >
                      > > >They even had a long drawn out discussion
                      >
                      > > on soul forum trying to figure out why young
                      >
                      > > people aren't interested in Eckankar.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents
                      >
                      > > are more interested in their own spiritual growth,
                      >
                      > > and trying to break the family karmic bond....
                      >
                      > > At least that was how it was in my family!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Liska wrote:
                      >
                      > > The low turnout at events, no youth,
                      >
                      > > increased charges for audio and
                      >
                      > > video broadcasts of Klemp, and the
                      >
                      > > heavy handed advertising for the
                      >
                      > > World Wide are all indicators that
                      >
                      > > finances aren't what they used to be.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't
                      >
                      > > what it used to be either! But you won't
                      >
                      > > be able to convince some of those eckist
                      >
                      > > that won't take off their rose colored glasses,
                      >
                      > > or should I say blue? ;-)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > No Love in Eck,
                      >
                      > > Liz
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Liska, Thanks for sharing about that. I had no idea it existed. No, I don t think they would let me join. I m not a H.I. Etznab ... From: drubezarne
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 4, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Liska,

                        Thanks for sharing about that. I had no
                        idea it existed.

                        No, I don't think they would let me join.
                        I'm not a H.I.

                        Etznab

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 5:53 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot
                        the Messenger!



                        No, it's a Yahoo group that's only accessible to H.I.s they invite. I

                        don't know what they're up to with this new forum group. Maybe they

                        will let you join and you can tell us about it. The Yahoo group has

                        been in existence for about 10 years. They claim to have over 90

                        H.I.s. I think that they're also counting people like me that have

                        left soul forum. H.I.s are susceptible to ego stroking like having

                        titles, duties, and sacred duties (ha ha). You can see why they would

                        find a secret forum with an elitist flavor delightful.



                        Regards

                        Liska



                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:

                        >

                        > Is that the same as

                        >

                        > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/forum/

                        >

                        > or another site altogether?

                        >

                        > Etznab

                        >

                        > -----Original Message-----

                        > From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>

                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                        > Sent: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 4:57 pm

                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't
                        Shoot

                        > the Messenger!

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > Prometheus

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > For those who haven't heard about soul forum, it's run by Doug
                        Marman,

                        >

                        > Phil Wellman and Melodie Chrislock. Both Phil and Melodie work with

                        >

                        > Doug to sell his books and share in the profits. They're like a

                        >

                        > conglomorate who use soul forum as a way to make some money off

                        >

                        > unsuspecting H.I.'s. The H.I.'s are invited to join soul forum.
                        Many

                        >

                        > feel like they're privileged to be part of this elite group which
                        only

                        >

                        > allows H.I.'s into the sacred inner sanctum of Doug's domain.

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > Regards

                        >

                        > Liska

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

                        >

                        > prometheus_973@ wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Hi Liz and Liska,

                        >

                        > > Say Liska, what's this "soul forum?"

                        >

                        > > Is it like the official/unofficial EK

                        >

                        > > sites of Chela-Chat and HU-Chat?

                        >

                        > > Who are the ones standing upon the

                        >

                        > > pedestals over there? Are they narrow

                        >

                        > > minded, narcissistic, delusional, and

                        >

                        > > beyond reproach as they are on HU Chat

                        >

                        > > and Chela Chat?

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > In the below comments you mentioned

                        >

                        > > about ECKists renting a 200 person hall

                        >

                        > > in CA. and that only three newcomers

                        >

                        > > showed up. It doesn't sound like the local

                        >

                        > > EK chelas dragged in enough friends and

                        >

                        > > family members! LOL!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Of course, after several years of these EK

                        >

                        > > events how many friends and relatives are

                        >

                        > > left that are willing to go to these ECKie

                        >

                        > > events and waste their time and money.

                        >

                        > > These ECKists need to use more ingenuity...

                        >

                        > > invite out-of-town guests to fly or drive

                        >

                        > > over/down/up to California during the

                        >

                        > > week of the EK event and then sucker

                        >

                        > > them into attending "with you." Timing is

                        >

                        > > everything!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Years ago I read and heard of where

                        >

                        > > one Satsang group in Miami was getting

                        >

                        > > some very high turnouts at EK events.

                        >

                        > > Of course, some of the numbers of "new

                        >

                        > > people" were really repeats and numbers

                        >

                        > > were "fudged" in other ways slightly, but

                        >

                        > > the total number for a one year period

                        >

                        > > was just over 1,000 "newcomers!" What

                        >

                        > > was even more incredible was that ONLY

                        >

                        > > 3 of the 1,000 people signed up as EK

                        >

                        > > Members from this incredibly large turnout

                        >

                        > > and effort!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Then again, I'm certain that the local EK

                        >

                        > > Vahanas and RESA felt very proud that

                        >

                        > > they could present these high numbers

                        >

                        > > to the ESC. And, it could be that this is

                        >

                        > > the real reason (finally after all these years)

                        >

                        > > that there is now less effort being made

                        >

                        > > to have Regional EK Seminars and other

                        >

                        > > unrewarding expenditures of local EK

                        >

                        > > (ESC) funds. Thus, the recent focus upon

                        >

                        > > the Internet and the Internet EK Seminars

                        >

                        > > and mailings. It seems to take awhile for

                        >

                        > > things to trickle down to the troops in

                        >

                        > > the field... yet ECKists believe in an "inner"

                        >

                        > > communication of a "higher" consciousness

                        >

                        > > (Klemp)! What a joke!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Still, there is a suggested need for the

                        >

                        > > Lower Plane "outer" work in order to

                        >

                        > > receive those Higher Plane "inner" blessings.

                        >

                        > > Almost all of the ECK Vahana work is really

                        >

                        > > just "Busy Work." It's to keep chelas preoccupied

                        >

                        > > and distracted from thinking and asking

                        >

                        > > questions. And, it's to give chelas a sense

                        >

                        > > of purpose, and to make them feel needed

                        >

                        > > by feeling good about themselves. It's also

                        >

                        > > a valuable brainwashing technique! EKankar

                        >

                        > > has become more like a self-help group.

                        >

                        > > It helps to teach chelas public speaking

                        >

                        > > skills and, thus, self confidence (like

                        >

                        > > Toastmasters). Chelas become missionaries

                        >

                        > > saving people (Souls), but they also become

                        >

                        > > more pious and deluded.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Therefore, EKankar becomes a crutch, an

                        >

                        > > attitude of delusion and aloofness, as well

                        >

                        > > as, a drug that one needs to use and lean

                        >

                        > > upon... forever!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Prometheus

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Liska wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > As for clues to how Eckankar is

                        >

                        > > doing one can judge by the turn

                        >

                        > > out at local events. For one thing,

                        >

                        > > there are no youth except for a few

                        >

                        > > that were brought up in eckankar

                        >

                        > > families.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > LIZ: I was brought up in the teachings.

                        >

                        > > I never met other eckist youth in school.

                        >

                        > > I felt embarrassed to even share the

                        >

                        > > teachings with my friends.... Why would

                        >

                        > > any youth feel comfortable doing that,

                        >

                        > > the other kids would think we were strange.

                        >

                        > > And to be honest, when I did share the religion

                        >

                        > > our family belonged to with friends, they told

                        >

                        > > me it was a cult. So I stopped sharing. Kids

                        >

                        > > now a days are not that much different from

                        >

                        > > when I was first in the teachings ('72-'73)

                        >

                        > > Most youth that attend seminars, local events

                        >

                        > > etc, do so because their parents have hauled

                        >

                        > > them to the events and they enjoy hanging out

                        >

                        > > with kids their own age. When I was attending

                        >

                        > > the kids rooms were nothing more than a baby

                        >

                        > > sitting service. Of course they eventually attempted

                        >

                        > > to offer the kids a more structured "spiritual"

                        >

                        > > entertainment in the rooms.... Or should I call

                        >

                        > > it brainwashing?

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > LIZ: My 17 yr old daughter and I have a similar

                        >

                        > > conversation last night. She is agnostic and

                        >

                        > > I tend to lean that way now after leaving the

                        >

                        > > path. We believe something created "all this"

                        >

                        > > but just not sure "It" is a god or wee man like

                        >

                        > > Klemp! My daughter has studied several religions,

                        >

                        > > as I did in school, including mythology, and other

                        >

                        > > cultures.They all have their deities, gods, myths,

                        >

                        > > dogma... And for me to state it was always difficult

                        >

                        > > for me to follow eckankar for 30 years because

                        >

                        > > of that underlying questioning, is a huge admission

                        >

                        > > coming from me..... So why did I stay for some

                        >

                        > > many years? LOL

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Liska wrote:

                        >

                        > > When people try to hold events such as intro

                        >

                        > > talks hardly anybody shows up. One H.I. from

                        >

                        > > California told a story on soul forum about

                        >

                        > > renting a hall for over 200 people for an intro

                        >

                        > > talk. His group advertised in the papers, on

                        >

                        > > the radio, and put up posters all over the place.

                        >

                        > > When the day of the talk arrived, 3 people showed up.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > LIZ: Yep, and guess who had to pay for these

                        >

                        > > halls hey would rent for over 200 hundred people

                        >

                        > > if not enough would show up? ESC surely didn't!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Liska wrote:

                        >

                        > > H.I.'s on soul forum complained that when

                        >

                        > > they couldn't get enough new People to come

                        >

                        > > to their events, the main office said there was

                        >

                        > > Something wrong with the way they were presenting

                        >

                        > > the message.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > LIZ: How can that be, if the HI's were following

                        >

                        > > the guidelines for media pr and using ESC's

                        >

                        > > pre listed Titles etc? I would have to say it is

                        >

                        > > eckankar that people are not interested in,

                        >

                        > > no mater how it is packaged, topic titles etc....

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Liska wrote:

                        >

                        > > >They even had a long drawn out discussion

                        >

                        > > on soul forum trying to figure out why young

                        >

                        > > people aren't interested in Eckankar.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > LIZ: Part of it might be because the parents

                        >

                        > > are more interested in their own spiritual growth,

                        >

                        > > and trying to break the family karmic bond....

                        >

                        > > At least that was how it was in my family!

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > Liska wrote:

                        >

                        > > The low turnout at events, no youth,

                        >

                        > > increased charges for audio and

                        >

                        > > video broadcasts of Klemp, and the

                        >

                        > > heavy handed advertising for the

                        >

                        > > World Wide are all indicators that

                        >

                        > > finances aren't what they used to be.

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > LIZ: Yep.... And the membership isn't

                        >

                        > > what it used to be either! But you won't

                        >

                        > > be able to convince some of those eckist

                        >

                        > > that won't take off their rose colored glasses,

                        >

                        > > or should I say blue? ;-)

                        >

                        > >

                        >

                        > > No Love in Eck,

                        >

                        > > Liz

                        >

                        > >

                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab and All, Just because you re not an H.I. doesn t mean you can t join. What do they require for membership... a quote from the most recent H.I.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 5, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          Just because you're not an H.I. doesn't
                          mean you can't join. What do they require
                          for membership... a quote from the most
                          recent H.I. Letter?

                          I guess they, also, may want your "real name"
                          and location so they can ask around about
                          you. Still, there are many H.I.s who aren't
                          in the EK spotlight and don't want to be.
                          They want their privacy.

                          And, I'm not sure that the ESC would provide
                          them membership info. Eckankar membership
                          info and one's "rank" are supposed to remain
                          private. Of course I could be wrong as to what
                          membership info is being shared. Klemp has
                          never really been specific on anything.

                          After all, at one time, ECKists were supposed
                          to keep their "spiritual stories" private as well,
                          and we can see how Klemp has "changed" that
                          policy too!

                          Prometheus


                          etznab@... wrote:
                          >
                          > Liska,
                          >
                          > Thanks for sharing about that. I had no
                          > idea it existed.
                          >
                          > No, I don't think they would let me join.
                          > I'm not a H.I.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          Re: Hey Chela Chat: Don't Shoot the Messenger!

                          No, it's a Yahoo group that's only accessible
                          to H.I.s they invite. I don't know what they're
                          up to with this new forum group. Maybe they
                          will let you join and you can tell us about it.
                          The Yahoo group has been in existence for
                          about 10 years. They claim to have over 90
                          H.I.s. I think that they're also counting people
                          like me that have left soul forum. H.I.s are
                          susceptible to ego stroking like having
                          titles, duties, and sacred duties (ha ha).
                          You can see why they would find a secret
                          forum with an elitist flavor delightful.

                          Regards
                          >
                          Liska
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