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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand Up

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Liska, Thanks for posting that. I haven t read With a Great Master in India. Only The Path of the Masters. It makes sense to me that Paul Twitchell could not
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 18, 2008
      Liska,

      Thanks for posting that. I haven't read With a Great
      Master in India. Only The Path of the Masters.

      It makes sense to me that Paul Twitchell could not
      help but be familiar with Sawan Singh. Especially the
      many similiarities between passages from the books
      by Julian Johnson and Eckankar.

      I got an impression from Doug Marman's book that
      things between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal Singh were
      not all that bad until about 1966. Myself, I think there
      were things happening in 1963 and 1964 after a copy
      of The Tiger's Fang was sent to Kirpal Singh.

      David Lane made a point that name changes began
      around 1964. This was probably just months after The
      Tiger's Fang manuscript was sent to Kirpal Singh. Or,
      less than a year, possibly.

      Since Sawan Singh & Kirpal Singh were associated
      and of the same "lineage", I find it curious how both of
      these names were replaced and/or removed from some
      of Paul Twitchell's writings.

      The 1966 "fallout" between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal
      Singh appears related to allegations that Paul Twitchell
      was teaching what to some people appeared similar to
      the teachings of Kirpal Singh (and that "lineage").

      Today one can read Julian Johnson's books and see
      similarity between the two sets of teachings. At least
      a lot of the same terms are used, IMO.

      I don't think Paul Twitchell could have done some of
      what he did with Eckankar if Pa
      ul were tied to and sub-
      ordinate to Kirpal Singh at the same time.

      In a way I see Eckankar as an attempt to change a
      number of different teachings. Like the ones that Paul
      studied and read about. It looks this way to me given
      the number of teachings from other paths, or found in
      books about other paths.

      It might not have been the prime intent (I don't know
      for sure), but taking a number of teachings, traditions
      and histories out of context by changing names, dates
      authors, and in some cases the names of the masters
      connected with those teachings, some outer Eckankar
      illustrations appear to me like a painting over a painting.
      History, or a part of the past is being replaced with new
      images.

      I believe it was public knowledge before the last Eck
      Worldwide Seminar that Darwin Gross had died. This
      was an Eck Master (and some would say a Mahanta)
      who served as leader of Eckankar for about ten years
      between the founder Paul Twitchell and the now (2008)
      current leader Harold Klemp.

      I didn't hear the name Darwin Gross mentioned by
      Harold Klemp at any of the major seminar talks or in
      any of the major publications since Darwin died.

      Evidently, once a master doesn't necessarily mean
      always a master. At least, not if the old master might
      appear to make the new master look bad. I guess it
      looks like some things need to be stripped from the
      history, for one reason or another.


      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 2:26 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand Up



      After reading With a Great Master in India by Julian Johnson, I have a

      pretty good idea who the real Sudar Singh is. Julian Johnson describes

      his travels in India with his master Sawan Singh. His description of

      these travels and his master's background and appearance fit the

      description that Paul Twitchell gives Sudar Singh. In fact, they are

      so close that they can only be the same person - Sawan Singh. If you

      read Travels with a Great Master, you will immediately recognize that

      Sudar Singh is Sawan Singh.



      Here's what Paul Twitchell said, "We met with Sudar Singh who was the

      leading advocate at that time of Soul Travel... He was rather a tall,

      lean man. He had a very lean face at the time, and he had started out

      as a Sikh in his life and changed later because he was in his early

      twenties when he came back to ECKANKAR."



      Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 141 (transcribed from a series

      of conversations by Paul Twitchell with chelas)



      Sawan Singh came from a Sikh family. He was tall and lean and he

      traveled around meeting with his students.



      In spite of all the clues that show how similar they wer
      e, I have yet

      to see anyone make the connection between Sawan Singh and Sudar Singh.

      Sawan Singh was a highly respected master in Sant Mat. They called him

      "The Great Master". Kirpal Singh often referred to him. In fact, he

      was Kirpal's master. It's no wonder that Paul wanted to claim him as

      his master too.



      You can read Ford Johnson's book to find out how Harold Klemp

      distorted and tried to cover up the truth. He couldn't find any trace

      of Sudar Singh, yet Klemp continued the lie about his existence.



      Sudar Singh was just another strawman that Paul Twitchell used to

      perpetuate his lies about the origins of Eckankar. If eckists would

      only take the trouble to read some of these books that Paul

      plagiarized, they would soon realize how they were trapped in a web of

      lies. The links section gives access to the .pdf versions. It's

      missing one key link, Walter Russell's The Secret of Light. Twitchell

      stole many paragraphs from it when he wrote his Tiger's Fang. Here's

      the link. Prometheus can you add it? Thanks.



      http://www.archive.org/details/WalterRussellTheSecretOfLight



      Regards

      Liska










      =0
      A
    • etznab@aol.com
      E.S.A., This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed the previous thread text to make this stand alone. Also, so to shorten the length of text in this
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 18, 2008
        E.S.A.,

        This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed
        the previous thread text to make this stand alone.
        Also, so to shorten the length of text in this post.
        I do think this is partly on topic though.

        *********

        I joined Eckankar in about 1987. When the topic
        of Darwin Gross (a previous Eck Master) came up
        the general consensus seemed to say he was not
        a "mahanta" but only a Living Eck Master.

        So that was a history I carried with me for many
        years. Not less than a few years ago I went back
        to review the Eck seminar transcripts and tapes. I
        discovered that the actual history was the reverse
        of what is generally thought to be the case now.

        Darwin Gross was referred to as "Mahanta, the
        Living Eck Master" at the time - in 1981 - when he
        named Harold Klemp as the "Living Eck Master".
        This appears opposite to the history that says he
        (Darwin Gross) was only an Eck Master and not a
        "mahanta". And it appears opposite the statement
        that Harold Klemp became the "Mahanta, the Living
        Eck Master" from the get go, in 1981.

        Admittedly, I probably need to do more research
        to be absolutely certain about all of the facts. What
        I gave is what I suspect.

        Furthermore, the point of contention between the
        two individuals (Darwin Gross & Harold Klemp) was
        apparently tied to the differences between "mahanta"
        and "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master". Darwin, so it
        seems to me, tried to remain the "Mahanta" even as
        Harold Klemp was the L.E.M. in 1981.

        There is nothing in the teachings and dogma of
        Eckankar that says a master remains a "mahanta"
        after naming a successor. Not that I remember. At
        the same time, I don't know about whatever "deal"
        was struck between Darwin and Harold before the
        latter replaced the former as leader of Eckankar. I
        got the impression from Darwin's "writings" that
        there was some kind of "deal", according to him.

        I think this topic is partly related to the Sawan
        & Sudar Singh topic, on account of how the history
        of Darwin Gross appears to have vanished, or been
        changed.

        Consequently, I was not able to access "ANY"
        of the seminar tapes when Darwin Gross was the
        leader of Eckankar. I only listened to the audio in
        1981 when Harold Klemp was announced as the
        Living Eck Master (not the Mahanta).

        According to my research, it wasn't until about
        1983-1984 before Harold Klemp was announced
        as the "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" at an
        Eck Worldwide seminar.

        Is this what it means when the former master
        is said to refuse to step down? Because it looks
        like Harold Klemp might not have been able to
        claim the title "mahanta" until after Darwin Gross
        was "removed" from Eckankar first!

        It's a guess, but I wonder if this is what it's all
        about. Different individuals battling to calim the
        title of the highest sate of God consciousness?
        "Mahanta".

        Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh had "living"
        masters in their traditions as well. Apparently
        - like Eckankar - there could be only one.

        IMO, when Paul Twitchell became "the master"
        he automatically severed his ties to living as sub-
        ordinate to "ANY" other living masters. Including
        Kirpal Singh & Sawan Singh. To mention them,
        or to indicate that he was a chela in their lineage
        would mean he could not be a "the living master"
        of that lineage. In fact, the "lineage" of Eckankar
        he illustrated does not include either of those two
        individuals as "Living Eck Masters". The closest
        thing to them, perhaps, is "Sudar Singh". IMO.

        I believe this is one of the main issues - identity
        of Sudar Singh - in debates about Eckankar history.
        In the illustrated lineage - on new Eckankar display
        items - Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh both appear
        to be missing! The pictures go from Harold Klemp,
        to Paul Twitchell, to Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

        Your thread "Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand
        Up" is very noteworthy, IMO.

        Etznab

        P.S. If anybody has copies of a transcript or audio
        from an Eck Worldwide Seminar between 1973 &
        1981 (alleged time when Darwin Gross went by the
        title of "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master") I would
        like to know what were the actual words used to
        announce him. In other words, what does history
        say that his title was during this time?
      • drubezarne
        Etznab I got into Eckankar at the beginning of the 1970s. When I went to seminars, Darwin was always announced as the Mahanta, The Living Eck Master. Later
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 19, 2008
          Etznab
          I got into Eckankar at the beginning of the 1970s. When I went to
          seminars, Darwin was always announced as the Mahanta, The Living Eck
          Master. Later Darwin made an agreement with Harold to share his
          leadership with him, Harold was supposed to be called The Living Eck
          Master while Darwin retained the title, Mahanta.

          Apparently, Harold also craved that title of Mahanta and so deposed
          Darwin to take on all the titles including ownership of Eckankar. He
          also claimed that he had God Realization 10 years before he agreed to
          become the Living Eck Master.

          Does this sound like the highest path to God? When two people like
          Darwing and Harold fight over titles and money, all it shows is their
          depravity. The worst offender is Paul Twitchell who started the whole
          lie of Eckankar.

          Regards
          Liska

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
          >
          > E.S.A.,
          >
          > This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed
          > the previous thread text to make this stand alone.
          > Also, so to shorten the length of text in this post.
          > I do think this is partly on topic though.
          >
          > *********
          >
          > I joined Eckankar in about 1987. When the topic
          > of Darwin Gross (a previous Eck Master) came up
          > the general consensus seemed to say he was not
          > a "mahanta" but only a Living Eck Master.
          >
          > So that was a history I carried with me for many
          > years. Not less than a few years ago I went back
          > to review the Eck seminar transcripts and tapes. I
          > discovered that the actual history was the reverse
          > of what is generally thought to be the case now.
          >
          > Darwin Gross was referred to as "Mahanta, the
          > Living Eck Master" at the time - in 1981 - when he
          > named Harold Klemp as the "Living Eck Master".
          > This appears opposite to the history that says he
          > (Darwin Gross) was only an Eck Master and not a
          > "mahanta". And it appears opposite the statement
          > that Harold Klemp became the "Mahanta, the Living
          > Eck Master" from the get go, in 1981.
          >
          > Admittedly, I probably need to do more research
          > to be absolutely certain about all of the facts. What
          > I gave is what I suspect.
          >
          > Furthermore, the point of contention between the
          > two individuals (Darwin Gross & Harold Klemp) was
          > apparently tied to the differences between "mahanta"
          > and "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master". Darwin, so it
          > seems to me, tried to remain the "Mahanta" even as
          > Harold Klemp was the L.E.M. in 1981.
          >
          > There is nothing in the teachings and dogma of
          > Eckankar that says a master remains a "mahanta"
          > after naming a successor. Not that I remember. At
          > the same time, I don't know about whatever "deal"
          > was struck between Darwin and Harold before the
          > latter replaced the former as leader of Eckankar. I
          > got the impression from Darwin's "writings" that
          > there was some kind of "deal", according to him.
          >
          > I think this topic is partly related to the Sawan
          > & Sudar Singh topic, on account of how the history
          > of Darwin Gross appears to have vanished, or been
          > changed.
          >
          > Consequently, I was not able to access "ANY"
          > of the seminar tapes when Darwin Gross was the
          > leader of Eckankar. I only listened to the audio in
          > 1981 when Harold Klemp was announced as the
          > Living Eck Master (not the Mahanta).
          >
          > According to my research, it wasn't until about
          > 1983-1984 before Harold Klemp was announced
          > as the "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" at an
          > Eck Worldwide seminar.
          >
          > Is this what it means when the former master
          > is said to refuse to step down? Because it looks
          > like Harold Klemp might not have been able to
          > claim the title "mahanta" until after Darwin Gross
          > was "removed" from Eckankar first!
          >
          > It's a guess, but I wonder if this is what it's all
          > about. Different individuals battling to calim the
          > title of the highest sate of God consciousness?
          > "Mahanta".
          >
          > Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh had "living"
          > masters in their traditions as well. Apparently
          > - like Eckankar - there could be only one.
          >
          > IMO, when Paul Twitchell became "the master"
          > he automatically severed his ties to living as sub-
          > ordinate to "ANY" other living masters. Including
          > Kirpal Singh & Sawan Singh. To mention them,
          > or to indicate that he was a chela in their lineage
          > would mean he could not be a "the living master"
          > of that lineage. In fact, the "lineage" of Eckankar
          > he illustrated does not include either of those two
          > individuals as "Living Eck Masters". The closest
          > thing to them, perhaps, is "Sudar Singh". IMO.
          >
          > I believe this is one of the main issues - identity
          > of Sudar Singh - in debates about Eckankar history.
          > In the illustrated lineage - on new Eckankar display
          > items - Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh both appear
          > to be missing! The pictures go from Harold Klemp,
          > to Paul Twitchell, to Rebazar Tarzs, etc.
          >
          > Your thread "Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand
          > Up" is very noteworthy, IMO.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          > P.S. If anybody has copies of a transcript or audio
          > from an Eck Worldwide Seminar between 1973 &
          > 1981 (alleged time when Darwin Gross went by the
          > title of "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master") I would
          > like to know what were the actual words used to
          > announce him. In other words, what does history
          > say that his title was during this time?
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          Thanks for sharing that history about Darwin. I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp named a successor as the Living Eck Master. Would history repeat
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 19, 2008
            Thanks for sharing that history about Darwin.

            I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp
            named a successor as the Living Eck Master.
            Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to
            remain the "Mahanta"?

            BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title
            "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first
            applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I
            believe some of the history today likes to say
            that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was
            this term in use that early? I'm not sure.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 8:23 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Will the Real Sudar Singh
            Stand Up



            Etznab

            I got into Eckankar at the beginning of the 1970s. When I went to

            seminars, Darwin was always announced as the Mahanta, The Living Eck

            Master. Later Darwin made an agreement with Harold to share his

            leadership with him, Harold was supposed to be called The Living Eck

            Master while Darwin retained the title, Mahanta.



            Apparently, Harold also craved that title of Mahanta and so deposed

            Darwin to take on all the titles including ownership of Eckankar. He

            also claimed that he had God Realization 10 years before he agreed to

            become the Living Eck Master.



            Does this sound like the highest path to God? When two people like

            Darwing and Harold f
            ight over titles and money, all it shows is their

            depravity. The worst offender is Paul Twitchell who started the whole

            lie of Eckankar.



            Regards

            Liska



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:

            >

            > E.S.A.,

            >

            > This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed

            > the previous thread text to make this stand alone.

            > Also, so to shorten the length of text in this post.

            > I do think this is partly on topic though.

            >

            > *********

            >

            > I joined Eckankar in about 1987. When the topic

            > of Darwin Gross (a previous Eck Master) came up

            > the general consensus seemed to say he was not

            > a "mahanta" but only a Living Eck Master.

            >

            > So that was a history I carried with me for many

            > years. Not less than a few years ago I went back

            > to review the Eck seminar transcripts and tapes. I

            > discovered that the actual history was the reverse

            > of what is generally thought to be the case now.

            >

            > Darwin Gross was referred to as "Mahanta, the

            > Living Eck Master" at the time - in 1981 - when he

            > named Harold Klemp as the "Living Eck Master".

            > This appears opposite to the history that says he

            > (Darwin Gross) was only an Eck Master and not a


            > "mahanta". And it appears opposite the statement

            > that Harold Klemp became the "Mahanta, the Living

            > Eck Master" from the get go, in 1981.

            >

            > Admittedly, I probably need to do more research

            > to be absolutely certain about all of the facts. What

            > I gave is what I suspect.

            >

            > Furthermore, the point of contention between the

            > two individuals (Darwin Gross & Harold Klemp) was

            > apparently tied to the differences between "mahanta"

            > and "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master". Darwin, so it

            > seems to me, tried to remain the "Mahanta" even as

            > Harold Klemp was the L.E.M. in 1981.

            >

            > There is nothing in the teachings and dogma of

            > Eckankar that says a master remains a "mahanta"

            > after naming a successor. Not that I remember. At

            > the same time, I don't know about whatever "deal"

            > was struck between Darwin and Harold before the

            > latter replaced the former as leader of Eckankar. I

            > got the impression from Darwin's "writings" that

            > there was some kind of "deal", according to him.

            >

            > I think this topic is partly related to the Sawan

            > & Sudar Singh topic, on account of how the history

            > of Darwin Gross appears to have vanished, or been

            > changed.

            >

            > Consequently, I was not
            able to access "ANY"

            > of the seminar tapes when Darwin Gross was the

            > leader of Eckankar. I only listened to the audio in

            > 1981 when Harold Klemp was announced as the

            > Living Eck Master (not the Mahanta).

            >

            > According to my research, it wasn't until about

            > 1983-1984 before Harold Klemp was announced

            > as the "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" at an

            > Eck Worldwide seminar.

            >

            > Is this what it means when the former master

            > is said to refuse to step down? Because it looks

            > like Harold Klemp might not have been able to

            > claim the title "mahanta" until after Darwin Gross

            > was "removed" from Eckankar first!

            >

            > It's a guess, but I wonder if this is what it's all

            > about. Different individuals battling to calim the

            > title of the highest sate of God consciousness?

            > "Mahanta".

            >

            > Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh had "living"

            > masters in their traditions as well. Apparently

            > - like Eckankar - there could be only one.

            >

            > IMO, when Paul Twitchell became "the master"

            > he automatically severed his ties to living as sub-

            > ordinate to "ANY" other living masters. Including

            > Kirpal Singh & Sawan Singh. To mention them,

            > or to indicate that he was a chela in their lineage0D

            > would mean he could not be a "the living master"

            > of that lineage. In fact, the "lineage" of Eckankar

            > he illustrated does not include either of those two

            > individuals as "Living Eck Masters". The closest

            > thing to them, perhaps, is "Sudar Singh". IMO.

            >

            > I believe this is one of the main issues - identity

            > of Sudar Singh - in debates about Eckankar history.

            > In the illustrated lineage - on new Eckankar display

            > items - Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh both appear

            > to be missing! The pictures go from Harold Klemp,

            > to Paul Twitchell, to Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

            >

            > Your thread "Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand

            > Up" is very noteworthy, IMO.

            >

            > Etznab

            >

            > P.S. If anybody has copies of a transcript or audio

            > from an Eck Worldwide Seminar between 1973 &

            > 1981 (alleged time when Darwin Gross went by the

            > title of "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master") I would

            > like to know what were the actual words used to

            > announce him. In other words, what does history

            > say that his title was during this time?

            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, According to PT s monthly Wisdom Notes he first used the Mahanta title in the Jan. 1, 1969 issue. I d have to check other Wisdom Notes to see when
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 19, 2008
              Hello All,
              According to PT's monthly Wisdom Notes
              he first used the Mahanta title in the Jan.
              1, 1969 issue. I'd have to check other Wisdom
              Notes to see when Twit used both titles
              together, but it was later than Jan. 1, 1969!

              Darwin's big mistake was that he trusted
              Klemp at his word. Also, Darwin should
              have announced to the EK membership
              that he was planning to stay on as the
              Mahanta while Klemp remained as President
              of Eckankar and as LEM.

              I'm certain Klemp won't make that mistake
              when he makes Joan an 11th or 12th and
              Peter the new LEM while Don Ginn takes
              Peter's old job as President of Eckankar.
              Klemp will remain Mahanta for much longer!

              BTW-Actually, Kirpal wasn't (officially)
              chosen to succeed his former Master Sawan
              Singh. This is why Kirpal started his own
              Ruhani Satsang sect and broke from Radhasoami.

              Prometheus


              etznab@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > Thanks for sharing that history about Darwin.
              >
              > I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp
              > named a successor as the Living Eck Master.
              > Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to
              > remain the "Mahanta"?
              >
              > BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title
              > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first
              > applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I
              > believe some of the history today likes to say
              > that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was
              > this term in use that early? I'm not sure.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              Re: Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand Up
              >
              >
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              > I got into Eckankar at the beginning of the 1970s. When I went to
              >
              > seminars, Darwin was always announced as the Mahanta, The Living Eck
              >
              > Master. Later Darwin made an agreement with Harold to share his
              >
              > leadership with him, Harold was supposed to be called The Living Eck
              >
              > Master while Darwin retained the title, Mahanta.
              >
              >
              >
              > Apparently, Harold also craved that title of Mahanta and so deposed
              >
              > Darwin to take on all the titles including ownership of Eckankar. He
              >
              > also claimed that he had God Realization 10 years before he agreed to
              >
              > become the Living Eck Master.
              >
              >
              >
              > Does this sound like the highest path to God? When two people like
              >
              > Darwing and Harold f
              > ight over titles and money, all it shows is their
              >
              > depravity. The worst offender is Paul Twitchell who started the whole
              >
              > lie of Eckankar.
              >
              >
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Liska
              >
              >
              > etznab@ wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > E.S.A.,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed
              >
              > > the previous thread text to make this stand alone.
              >
              > > Also, so to shorten the length of text in this post.
              >
              > > I do think this is partly on topic though.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > *********
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I joined Eckankar in about 1987. When the topic
              >
              > > of Darwin Gross (a previous Eck Master) came up
              >
              > > the general consensus seemed to say he was not
              >
              > > a "mahanta" but only a Living Eck Master.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > So that was a history I carried with me for many
              >
              > > years. Not less than a few years ago I went back
              >
              > > to review the Eck seminar transcripts and tapes. I
              >
              > > discovered that the actual history was the reverse
              >
              > > of what is generally thought to be the case now.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Darwin Gross was referred to as "Mahanta, the
              >
              > > Living Eck Master" at the time - in 1981 - when he
              >
              > > named Harold Klemp as the "Living Eck Master".
              >
              > > This appears opposite to the history that says he
              >
              > > (Darwin Gross) was only an Eck Master and not a
              >
              >
              > > "mahanta". And it appears opposite the statement
              >
              > > that Harold Klemp became the "Mahanta, the Living
              >
              > > Eck Master" from the get go, in 1981.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Admittedly, I probably need to do more research
              >
              > > to be absolutely certain about all of the facts. What
              >
              > > I gave is what I suspect.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Furthermore, the point of contention between the
              >
              > > two individuals (Darwin Gross & Harold Klemp) was
              >
              > > apparently tied to the differences between "mahanta"
              >
              > > and "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master". Darwin, so it
              >
              > > seems to me, tried to remain the "Mahanta" even as
              >
              > > Harold Klemp was the L.E.M. in 1981.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > There is nothing in the teachings and dogma of
              >
              > > Eckankar that says a master remains a "mahanta"
              >
              > > after naming a successor. Not that I remember. At
              >
              > > the same time, I don't know about whatever "deal"
              >
              > > was struck between Darwin and Harold before the
              >
              > > latter replaced the former as leader of Eckankar. I
              >
              > > got the impression from Darwin's "writings" that
              >
              > > there was some kind of "deal", according to him.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I think this topic is partly related to the Sawan
              >
              > > & Sudar Singh topic, on account of how the history
              >
              > > of Darwin Gross appears to have vanished, or been
              >
              > > changed.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Consequently, I was not
              > able to access "ANY"
              >
              > > of the seminar tapes when Darwin Gross was the
              >
              > > leader of Eckankar. I only listened to the audio in
              >
              > > 1981 when Harold Klemp was announced as the
              >
              > > Living Eck Master (not the Mahanta).
              >
              > >
              >
              > > According to my research, it wasn't until about
              >
              > > 1983-1984 before Harold Klemp was announced
              >
              > > as the "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" at an
              >
              > > Eck Worldwide seminar.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Is this what it means when the former master
              >
              > > is said to refuse to step down? Because it looks
              >
              > > like Harold Klemp might not have been able to
              >
              > > claim the title "mahanta" until after Darwin Gross
              >
              > > was "removed" from Eckankar first!
              >
              > >
              >
              > > It's a guess, but I wonder if this is what it's all
              >
              > > about. Different individuals battling to calim the
              >
              > > title of the highest sate of God consciousness?
              >
              > > "Mahanta".
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh had "living"
              >
              > > masters in their traditions as well. Apparently
              >
              > > - like Eckankar - there could be only one.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > IMO, when Paul Twitchell became "the master"
              >
              > > he automatically severed his ties to living as sub-
              >
              > > ordinate to "ANY" other living masters. Including
              >
              > > Kirpal Singh & Sawan Singh. To mention them,
              >
              > > or to indicate that he was a chela in their lineage0D
              >
              > > would mean he could not be a "the living master"
              >
              > > of that lineage. In fact, the "lineage" of Eckankar
              >
              > > he illustrated does not include either of those two
              >
              > > individuals as "Living Eck Masters". The closest
              >
              > > thing to them, perhaps, is "Sudar Singh". IMO.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I believe this is one of the main issues - identity
              >
              > > of Sudar Singh - in debates about Eckankar history.
              >
              > > In the illustrated lineage - on new Eckankar display
              >
              > > items - Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh both appear
              >
              > > to be missing! The pictures go from Harold Klemp,
              >
              > > to Paul Twitchell, to Rebazar Tarzs, etc.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Your thread "Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand
              >
              > > Up" is very noteworthy, IMO.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Etznab
              >
              > >
              >
              > > P.S. If anybody has copies of a transcript or audio
              >
              > > from an Eck Worldwide Seminar between 1973 &
              >
              > > 1981 (alleged time when Darwin Gross went by the
              >
              > > title of "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master") I would
              >
              > > like to know what were the actual words used to
              >
              > > announce him. In other words, what does history
              >
              > > say that his title was during this time?
              >
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Etznab and All, In the MAY 1, 1969 Paul Twitchell Presents: The Wisdom Notes Twitchell used Mahanta and living ECK Master for the FIRST time in the
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 23, 2008
                Hello Etznab and All,
                In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "Mahanta"
                and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in
                the same sentence, but NOT together!

                Here's the quote:
                PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK
                Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta
                to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as
                the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]

                In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit
                doesn't mention the "Mahanta" at all! Instead,
                PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;
                the living ECK Master."

                The next time Twitchell uses "Mahanta" in
                the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"
                is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM
                NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master
                becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]

                Twitchell doesn't menton the "Mahanta" again
                until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,
                but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)
                with the "living ECK Master."

                In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom
                Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term
                "Mahanta," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"
                for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing
                the "l" in "living ECK Master."

                FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom
                Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only
                one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "Mahanta"
                and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!
                Here's the quote [pg.53]:

                "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power
                is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the
                living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all
                caps!


                Twitchell does Not mention the "Mahanta" in
                the March 1, 1970 issue, but here's the quote
                for APRIL 1, 1970: "The fifth initiation and beyond
                are given only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK
                Master." This is the FIRST time PT uses a comma
                instead of a hyphen to separate the two titles, and
                "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while "living" is
                still in lower case.

                In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
                Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the
                "living ECK Master" but Not to both!

                In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"
                Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"
                WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living
                ECK Master" is still lower case!

                FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses
                "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")
                in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom
                Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the
                term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!

                PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971
                Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower
                case in "living ECK Master."

                Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971
                "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE
                "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that
                I counted 3 or 4 times that Twitchell used these
                two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.
                1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."

                Prometheus
                BTW- Klemp has already explained that
                a 12th or 13th Initiate is a "Mahanta in
                training" and is Not a FULL(y) cooked Mahanta!

                Therefore, HK will remain the (FULL) Mahanta
                for years to come... maybe for 10 more years!


                etznab wrote:
                [snip]
                >
                I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp
                named a successor as the Living Eck Master.
                Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to
                remain the "Mahanta"?
                >
                BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title
                "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first
                applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I
                believe some of the history today likes to say
                that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was
                this term in use that early? I'm not sure.
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Liska and All, It seems that PT s Monthly The Wisdom Notes were written a month in advance since the last article was dated OCT. 1, 1971 and PT died
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 23, 2008
                  Hello Liska and All,
                  It seems that PT's Monthly "The Wisdom
                  Notes" were written a month in advance
                  since the last article was dated OCT. 1,
                  1971 and PT died SEPT. 17, 1971. Thus,
                  the JAN. 1, 1969 issue was probably
                  written around DEC. 1, 1968. The JAN. 1,
                  1969 (monthly) "The Wisdom Notes" is
                  where Twitchell first used the term
                  "MAHANTA" in print.

                  I recently looked at "The Flute of God"
                  and saw that the copyright is 1969 and
                  that the First Printing is 1970. My copy
                  is from the 6th printing (1979).

                  It's interesting that Twitchell mentioned
                  the "Mahanta consciousness" only once
                  and on page 39. Nowhere else in this book
                  does Twit mention the "Mahanta." And,
                  "Mahanta" is Not in ALL UPPER CASE, and
                  it is Not used with the term "Living ECK Master."

                  Actually, Twitchell mentions "Living ECK
                  Master" on pages 12 and 133. PT then
                  mentions "living ECK Master" on page 19.
                  Twitchell Does Not mention the LEM again,
                  except, he does mention the "Living ECK"
                  on page 169.

                  *Therefore, "Mahanta" is mentioned once
                  and Not WITH the "LEM" title, and "LEM"
                  is only mention THREE times. Twitchell
                  was more focused upon plagiarizing and
                  changing names...

                  In Marman's Chapter 2 on littleknownpubs
                  he mentions that PT changed "Meher Baba"
                  to "Fubbi Quantz" (pg. 7). And, of course,
                  "Kirpal Singh" was changed to "Sudar Singh."
                  Marman, also, mentions in Ch. 2 of Dialogues
                  in the Age of Criticism that Twitchell changed
                  "Swami Premanada" to "Sudar Singh."

                  Oh well! As Klemp has said, "Change is Change!"

                  Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                  EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                  thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:

                  "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                  January 1968--October 1971"

                  ***

                  On Another Note (from The Flute of God)
                  Twitchell gives two HEALING Techniques:

                  "It has long been proven that music and colors
                  go together. Color can further improve the
                  effects of music upon a troubled mind. Disease,
                  as you know, is a disharmony resulting from
                  the influence of an imaged picture. Music could
                  return the balance if necessary, but one would
                  have to reach the basic cause in order to erase
                  the image." [The Flute of God, pg. 119]

                  Hmmmm. Maybe staring at Klemp's image isn't
                  what ECKists really need! Maybe this is why Klemp
                  is so sickly! HK stares at his own negative,
                  imbalanced, and disharmonious image in the
                  mirror each day!

                  Here's another HEALING technique that the LEM
                  can use for all people:

                  "The Living ECK Master often cures disease by
                  purifying the atmosphere both within and without
                  the person. He does this by the power of the
                  inward word and the ECK, if we take the time
                  to learn that we are agents of the Divine ECK."
                  [The Flute of God, pg. 133]

                  So, why did that young EK 7th Initiate, on the
                  ESC Eckankar Board, die of cancer if this was
                  true of the LEM's "power?" See! It's all just
                  magical thinking and meaningless words!

                  Prometheus

                  Liska wrote:
                  ... Also, pages 163 - 164 of Ford's book
                  Confessions of a God Seeker says that
                  the word Mahanta appeared in The Flute
                  of God...


                  Illuminated Way Letters, and Letters to Gail.
                  He wrote these between 1960 and 1966.
                  The official date for the establishment of
                  Eckankar was 1965. It was then Paul declared
                  it the world's greatest spiritual path from which
                  all religions came. That's when you find the
                  terms, Rod of Eck Power, Mahanta, Sugmad,
                  Vairagi Eck Masters, and all the rest of the
                  garbage that is still promoted by the ego
                  driven Klemp today.
                  >
                  By the way, many of these copyrighted terms
                  were stolen from other religions/spiritual
                  teachings. You can find the name eckankar,
                  vairagi masters, sugmad, and others in Johnson's
                  Path of the Masters. The original spelling of
                  sugmad was surmadi (Sufi term), eckankar
                  comes from the Sikh term Ekonkar which means
                  One God, Vairagi Eck Masters comes from
                  Vairagis, the adepts of India, Mahanta is
                  a Hindi and Pali word that means head of
                  a monastic establishment and "big", Rod
                  of Eck Power comes from Theosophy's Rod
                  of Power concept or from references
                  found in Egyptian and Christian writings.
                  >

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                  > The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "Mahanta"
                  > and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in
                  > the same sentence, but NOT together!
                  >
                  > Here's the quote:
                  > PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK
                  > Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta
                  > to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as
                  > the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]
                  >
                  > In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit
                  > doesn't mention the "Mahanta" at all! Instead,
                  > PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;
                  > the living ECK Master."
                  >
                  > The next time Twitchell uses "Mahanta" in
                  > the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"
                  > is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM
                  > NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master
                  > becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]
                  >
                  > Twitchell doesn't menton the "Mahanta" again
                  > until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,
                  > but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)
                  > with the "living ECK Master."
                  >
                  > In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom
                  > Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term
                  > "Mahanta," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"
                  > for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing
                  > the "l" in "living ECK Master."
                  >
                  > FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom
                  > Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only
                  > one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "Mahanta"
                  > and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!
                  > Here's the quote [pg.53]:
                  >
                  > "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power
                  > is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the
                  > living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all
                  > caps!
                  >
                  >
                  > Twitchell does Not mention the "Mahanta" in
                  > the March 1, 1970 issue, but here's the quote
                  > for APRIL 1, 1970: "The fifth initiation and beyond
                  > are given only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK
                  > Master." This is the FIRST time PT uses a comma
                  > instead of a hyphen to separate the two titles, and
                  > "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while "living" is
                  > still in lower case.
                  >
                  > In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
                  > Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the
                  > "living ECK Master" but Not to both!
                  >
                  > In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"
                  > Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"
                  > WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living
                  > ECK Master" is still lower case!
                  >
                  > FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses
                  > "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")
                  > in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom
                  > Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the
                  > term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!
                  >
                  > PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971
                  > Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower
                  > case in "living ECK Master."
                  >
                  > Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971
                  > "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE
                  > "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that
                  > I counted 3 or 4 times that Twitchell used these
                  > two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.
                  > 1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  > BTW- Klemp has already explained that
                  > a 12th or 13th Initiate is a "Mahanta in
                  > training" and is Not a FULL(y) cooked Mahanta!
                  >
                  > Therefore, HK will remain the (FULL) Mahanta
                  > for years to come... maybe for 10 more years!
                  >
                  >
                  > etznab wrote:
                  > [snip]
                  > >
                  > I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp
                  > named a successor as the Living Eck Master.
                  > Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to
                  > remain the "Mahanta"?
                  > >
                  > BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title
                  > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first
                  > applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I
                  > believe some of the history today likes to say
                  > that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was
                  > this term in use that early? I'm not sure.
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008 EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch thin blue book with PT s white profile titled: Paul Twitchell Presents
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 24, 2008
                    Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                    EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                    thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:

                    "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                    January 1968--October 1971"

                    *********

                    I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We
                    know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to
                    Gail have in some places been edited and revised.
                    Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may
                    have been added retroactively, IMO.

                    What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are
                    in their exact original form?

                    I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the
                    new modern terms were added that they could
                    only be added in some places. In other places the
                    older tems remain because the newer ones would
                    have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                    original meanings too dramatically.

                    I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book
                    put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,
                    there was a time when I believed the Eck books I
                    had access to were mostly the way they appeared
                    to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.

                    If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and
                    change them in some places, IMO that would
                    make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-
                    line and history.

                    Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                    not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                    them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                    if anything was revised,
                    would there be a way to
                    tell?

                    BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form
                    of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.
                    Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in
                    book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.
                    And just one year before appointment of a new
                    LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:34 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] When Twitchell First Created the
                    "Mahanta"



                    Hello Liska and All,

                    It seems that PT's Monthly "The Wisdom

                    Notes" were written a month in advance

                    since the last article was dated OCT. 1,

                    1971 and PT died SEPT. 17, 1971. Thus,

                    the JAN. 1, 1969 issue was probably

                    written around DEC. 1, 1968. The JAN. 1,

                    1969 (monthly) "The Wisdom Notes" is

                    where Twitchell first used the term

                    "MAHANTA" in print.



                    I recently looked at "The Flute of God"

                    and saw that the copyright is 1969 and

                    that the First Printing is 1970. My copy

                    is from the 6th printing (1979).



                    It's interesting that Twitchell mentioned

                    the "Mahanta consciousness" only once

                    and on page 39. Nowhere else in this book

                    does Twit mention the "Mahanta." And,

                    "Mahanta" is Not in ALL UPPER CASE, and

                    it is Not used with the term "Living ECK Master."


                    =0
                    A
                    Actually, Twitchell mentions "Living ECK

                    Master" on pages 12 and 133. PT then

                    mentions "living ECK Master" on page 19.

                    Twitchell Does Not mention the LEM again,

                    except, he does mention the "Living ECK"

                    on page 169.



                    *Therefore, "Mahanta" is mentioned once

                    and Not WITH the "LEM" title, and "LEM"

                    is only mention THREE times. Twitchell

                    was more focused upon plagiarizing and

                    changing names...



                    In Marman's Chapter 2 on littleknownpubs

                    he mentions that PT changed "Meher Baba"

                    to "Fubbi Quantz" (pg. 7). And, of course,

                    "Kirpal Singh" was changed to "Sudar Singh."

                    Marman, also, mentions in Ch. 2 of Dialogues

                    in the Age of Criticism that Twitchell changed

                    "Swami Premanada" to "Sudar Singh."



                    Oh well! As Klemp has said, "Change is Change!"



                    Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008

                    EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch

                    thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:



                    "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes

                    January 1968--October 1971"



                    ***



                    On Another Note (from The Flute of God)

                    Twitchell gives two HEALING Techniques:



                    "It has long been proven that music and colors

                    go together. Color can further improve the

                    effects of music upon a troubled mind. Disease,

                    as you know, is a disharmony resulting from

                    the influence of an imaged picture
                    . Music could

                    return the balance if necessary, but one would

                    have to reach the basic cause in order to erase

                    the image." [The Flute of God, pg. 119]



                    Hmmmm. Maybe staring at Klemp's image isn't

                    what ECKists really need! Maybe this is why Klemp

                    is so sickly! HK stares at his own negative,

                    imbalanced, and disharmonious image in the

                    mirror each day!



                    Here's another HEALING technique that the LEM

                    can use for all people:



                    "The Living ECK Master often cures disease by

                    purifying the atmosphere both within and without

                    the person. He does this by the power of the

                    inward word and the ECK, if we take the time

                    to learn that we are agents of the Divine ECK."

                    [The Flute of God, pg. 133]



                    So, why did that young EK 7th Initiate, on the

                    ESC Eckankar Board, die of cancer if this was

                    true of the LEM's "power?" See! It's all just

                    magical thinking and meaningless words!



                    Prometheus



                    Liska wrote:

                    ... Also, pages 163 - 164 of Ford's book

                    Confessions of a God Seeker says that

                    the word Mahanta appeared in The Flute

                    of God...



                    Illuminated Way Letters, and Letters to Gail.

                    He wrote these between 1960 and 1966.

                    The official date for the establishment of

                    Eckankar was 1965. It was then Paul declared

                    it the world's greatest spiritual path from which
                    0D
                    all religions came. That's when you find the

                    terms, Rod of Eck Power, Mahanta, Sugmad,

                    Vairagi Eck Masters, and all the rest of the

                    garbage that is still promoted by the ego

                    driven Klemp today.

                    >

                    By the way, many of these copyrighted terms

                    were stolen from other religions/spiritual

                    teachings. You can find the name eckankar,

                    vairagi masters, sugmad, and others in Johnson's

                    Path of the Masters. The original spelling of

                    sugmad was surmadi (Sufi term), eckankar

                    comes from the Sikh term Ekonkar which means

                    One God, Vairagi Eck Masters comes from

                    Vairagis, the adepts of India, Mahanta is

                    a Hindi and Pali word that means head of

                    a monastic establishment and "big", Rod

                    of Eck Power comes from Theosophy's Rod

                    of Power concept or from references

                    found in Egyptian and Christian writings.

                    >



                    prometheus wrote:

                    >

                    > Hello Etznab and All,

                    > In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:

                    > The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "Mahanta"

                    > and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in

                    > the same sentence, but NOT together!

                    >

                    > Here's the quote:

                    > PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK

                    > Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta

                    > to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as

                    > the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]

                    >

                    >20In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit

                    > doesn't mention the "Mahanta" at all! Instead,

                    > PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;

                    > the living ECK Master."

                    >

                    > The next time Twitchell uses "Mahanta" in

                    > the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"

                    > is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM

                    > NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master

                    > becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]

                    >

                    > Twitchell doesn't menton the "Mahanta" again

                    > until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,

                    > but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)

                    > with the "living ECK Master."

                    >

                    > In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom

                    > Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term

                    > "Mahanta," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"

                    > for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing

                    > the "l" in "living ECK Master."

                    >

                    > FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom

                    > Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only

                    > one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "Mahanta"

                    > and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!

                    > Here's the quote [pg.53]:

                    >

                    > "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power

                    > is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the

                    > living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all

                    > caps!

                    >

                    >



                    > Twitchell does Not mention the "Mahanta" in

                    > the March 1, 1970 issue, but here's the quote

                    > for APRIL 1, 1970: "The fifth initiation and beyond

                    > are given only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK

                    > Master." This is the FIRST time PT uses a comma

                    > instead of a hyphen to separate the two titles, and

                    > "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while "living" is

                    > still in lower case.

                    >

                    > In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"

                    > Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the

                    > "living ECK Master" but Not to both!

                    >

                    > In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"

                    > Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"

                    > WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living

                    > ECK Master" is still lower case!

                    >

                    > FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses

                    > "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")

                    > in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom

                    > Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the

                    > term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!

                    >

                    > PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971

                    > Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower

                    > case in "living ECK Master."

                    >

                    > Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971

                    > "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE

                    > "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that

                    > I counted 3 or
                    4 times that Twitchell used these

                    > two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.

                    > 1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."

                    >

                    > Prometheus

                    > BTW- Klemp has already explained that

                    > a 12th or 13th Initiate is a "Mahanta in

                    > training" and is Not a FULL(y) cooked Mahanta!

                    >

                    > Therefore, HK will remain the (FULL) Mahanta

                    > for years to come... maybe for 10 more years!

                    >

                    >

                    > etznab wrote:

                    > [snip]

                    > >

                    > I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp

                    > named a successor as the Living Eck Master.

                    > Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to

                    > remain the "Mahanta"?

                    > >

                    > BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title

                    > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first

                    > applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I

                    > believe some of the history today likes to say

                    > that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was

                    > this term in use that early? I'm not sure.

                    >
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote them. I m just contemplating the possibility that if anything
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 24, 2008
                      "Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                      not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                      them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                      if anything was revised, would there be a way to
                      tell?"

                      *********

                      The original Wisdom Notes from the time
                      when they first came out could be compared
                      side by side with the 1980 book. However, I
                      can't do this because all I have is the 1980
                      book version.

                      Prometheus, what version did your quotes
                      come from? What was the source copyright?

                      The last paragraph of the 1980 book intro -
                      signed by Darwin Gross - appears to indicate
                      the Wisdom Notes in that book were "just as
                      he [Paul Twitchell] brought them out from
                      January 1968 to October 1971." IMO.

                      Etznab


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: etznab@...
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:38 pm
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] When Twitchell First Created
                      the "Mahanta"





                      Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008

                      EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch

                      thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:



                      "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes

                      January 1968--October 1971"



                      *********



                      I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We

                      know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to

                      Gail have in some places been edited and revised.

                      Some of the "Eck Terms" in these ex
                      amples may

                      have been added retroactively, IMO.



                      What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are

                      in their exact original form?



                      I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the

                      new modern terms were added that they could

                      only be added in some places. In other places the

                      older tems remain because the newer ones would

                      have appeared too awkward, or else changed the

                      original meanings too dramatically.



                      I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book

                      put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,

                      there was a time when I believed the Eck books I

                      had access to were mostly the way they appeared

                      to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.



                      If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and

                      change them in some places, IMO that would

                      make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-

                      line and history.



                      Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are

                      not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote

                      them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that

                      if anything was revised,

                      would there be a way to

                      tell?



                      BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form

                      of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.

                      Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in

                      book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.

                      And just one year before appointment of a new

                      LEM ("originally" set=2
                      0to take over in 1980)!



                      Etznab



                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                      Sent: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:34 pm

                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] When Twitchell First Created the

                      "Mahanta"



                      Hello Liska and All,



                      It seems that PT's Monthly "The Wisdom



                      Notes" were written a month in advance



                      since the last article was dated OCT. 1,



                      1971 and PT died SEPT. 17, 1971. Thus,



                      the JAN. 1, 1969 issue was probably



                      written around DEC. 1, 1968. The JAN. 1,



                      1969 (monthly) "The Wisdom Notes" is



                      where Twitchell first used the term



                      "MAHANTA" in print.



                      I recently looked at "The Flute of God"



                      and saw that the copyright is 1969 and



                      that the First Printing is 1970. My copy



                      is from the 6th printing (1979).



                      It's interesting that Twitchell mentioned



                      the "Mahanta consciousness" only once



                      and on page 39. Nowhere else in this book



                      does Twit mention the "Mahanta." And,



                      "Mahanta" is Not in ALL UPPER CASE, and



                      it is Not used with the term "Living ECK Master."



                      =0

                      A

                      Actually, Twitchell mentions "Living ECK



                      Master" on pages 12 and 133. PT then

                      =0
                      D

                      mentions "living ECK Master" on page 19.



                      Twitchell Does Not mention the LEM again,



                      except, he does mention the "Living ECK"



                      on page 169.



                      *Therefore, "Mahanta" is mentioned once



                      and Not WITH the "LEM" title, and "LEM"



                      is only mention THREE times. Twitchell



                      was more focused upon plagiarizing and



                      changing names...



                      In Marman's Chapter 2 on littleknownpubs



                      he mentions that PT changed "Meher Baba"



                      to "Fubbi Quantz" (pg. 7). And, of course,



                      "Kirpal Singh" was changed to "Sudar Singh."



                      Marman, also, mentions in Ch. 2 of Dialogues



                      in the Age of Criticism that Twitchell changed



                      "Swami Premanada" to "Sudar Singh."



                      Oh well! As Klemp has said, "Change is Change!"



                      Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008



                      EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch



                      thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:



                      "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes



                      January 1968--October 1971"



                      ***



                      On Another Note (from The Flute of God)



                      Twitchell gives two HEALING Techniques:



                      "It has long been proven that music and colors



                      go together. Color can further improve the



                      effects of music upon a troubled mind. Disease,


                      0A
                      as you know, is a disharmony resulting from



                      the influence of an imaged picture

                      . Music could



                      return the balance if necessary, but one would



                      have to reach the basic cause in order to erase



                      the image." [The Flute of God, pg. 119]



                      Hmmmm. Maybe staring at Klemp's image isn't



                      what ECKists really need! Maybe this is why Klemp



                      is so sickly! HK stares at his own negative,



                      imbalanced, and disharmonious image in the



                      mirror each day!



                      Here's another HEALING technique that the LEM



                      can use for all people:



                      "The Living ECK Master often cures disease by



                      purifying the atmosphere both within and without



                      the person. He does this by the power of the



                      inward word and the ECK, if we take the time



                      to learn that we are agents of the Divine ECK."



                      [The Flute of God, pg. 133]



                      So, why did that young EK 7th Initiate, on the



                      ESC Eckankar Board, die of cancer if this was



                      true of the LEM's "power?" See! It's all just



                      magical thinking and meaningless words!



                      Prometheus



                      Liska wrote:



                      ... Also, pages 163 - 164 of Ford's book



                      Confessions of a God Seeker says that



                      the word Mahanta appeared in The Flute

                      0A

                      of God...



                      Illuminated Way Letters, and Letters to Gail.



                      He wrote these between 1960 and 1966.



                      The official date for the establishment of



                      Eckankar was 1965. It was then Paul declared



                      it the world's greatest spiritual path from which

                      0D

                      all religions came. That's when you find the



                      terms, Rod of Eck Power, Mahanta, Sugmad,



                      Vairagi Eck Masters, and all the rest of the



                      garbage that is still promoted by the ego



                      driven Klemp today.



                      >



                      By the way, many of these copyrighted terms



                      were stolen from other religions/spiritual



                      teachings. You can find the name eckankar,



                      vairagi masters, sugmad, and others in Johnson's



                      Path of the Masters. The original spelling of



                      sugmad was surmadi (Sufi term), eckankar



                      comes from the Sikh term Ekonkar which means



                      One God, Vairagi Eck Masters comes from



                      Vairagis, the adepts of India, Mahanta is



                      a Hindi and Pali word that means head of



                      a monastic establishment and "big", Rod



                      of Eck Power comes from Theosophy's Rod



                      of Power concept or from references



                      found in Egyptian and Christian writings.



                      >



                      prometheus wrote:



                      >



                      > Hello Etzn
                      ab and All,



                      > In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:



                      > The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "Mahanta"



                      > and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in



                      > the same sentence, but NOT together!



                      >



                      > Here's the quote:



                      > PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK



                      > Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta



                      > to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as



                      > the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]



                      >



                      >20In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit



                      > doesn't mention the "Mahanta" at all! Instead,



                      > PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;



                      > the living ECK Master."



                      >



                      > The next time Twitchell uses "Mahanta" in



                      > the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"



                      > is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM



                      > NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master



                      > becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]



                      >



                      > Twitchell doesn't menton the "Mahanta" again



                      > until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,



                      > but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)



                      > with the "living ECK Master."



                      >



                      > In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wi
                      sdom



                      > Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term



                      > "Mahanta," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"



                      > for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing



                      > the "l" in "living ECK Master."



                      >



                      > FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom



                      > Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only



                      > one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "Mahanta"



                      > and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!



                      > Here's the quote [pg.53]:



                      >



                      > "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power



                      > is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the



                      > living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all



                      > caps!



                      >



                      >



                      > Twitchell does Not mention the "Mahanta" in



                      > the March 1, 1970 issue, but here's the quote



                      > for APRIL 1, 1970: "The fifth initiation and beyond



                      > are given only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK



                      > Master." This is the FIRST time PT uses a comma



                      > instead of a hyphen to separate the two titles, and



                      > "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while "living" is



                      > still in lower case.



                      >



                      > In the MAY 1, 1970 Mo
                      nthly "The Wisdom Notes"



                      > Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the



                      > "living ECK Master" but Not to both!



                      >



                      > In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"



                      > Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"



                      > WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living



                      > ECK Master" is still lower case!



                      >



                      > FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses



                      > "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")



                      > in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom



                      > Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the



                      > term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!



                      >



                      > PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971



                      > Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower



                      > case in "living ECK Master."



                      >



                      > Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971



                      > "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE



                      > "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that



                      > I counted 3 or

                      4 times that Twitchell used these



                      > two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.



                      > 1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."



                      >



                      > Prometheus



                      > BTW- Klemp has already explained that



                      >20a 12th or 13th Initiate is a "Mahanta in



                      > training" and is Not a FULL(y) cooked Mahanta!



                      >



                      > Therefore, HK will remain the (FULL) Mahanta



                      > for years to come... maybe for 10 more years!



                      >



                      >



                      > etznab wrote:



                      > [snip]



                      > >



                      > I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp



                      > named a successor as the Living Eck Master.



                      > Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to



                      > remain the "Mahanta"?



                      > >



                      > BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title



                      > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first



                      > applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I



                      > believe some of the history today likes to say



                      > that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was



                      > this term in use that early? I'm not sure.



                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Etznab and All, It s pretty obvious to me that these Wisdom Notes of Twitchell s have Not been edited. Darwin didn t allow people to edit the Holy words
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        It's pretty obvious to me that these
                        Wisdom Notes of Twitchell's have
                        Not been edited. Darwin didn't
                        allow people to edit the Holy words
                        of EK coming from Paul... DG was
                        a purist. This can be seen in the
                        other works of Twitchell's coming
                        from Darwin's era. It was a Hands
                        Off attitude when it came to changing
                        what Paul had said, even when there
                        were contradictions.

                        However, Klemp can't deal with the
                        contradictions as easily and this is
                        why he has discontinued the printing
                        of many of Twitchell's books. Older
                        ECKists could compare the original
                        version to a newer edited one and
                        this would be too embarrassing for
                        Klemp and too difficult to explain
                        away as an "update."

                        Also, if someone was going to edit
                        and replace the term "Master" with
                        "Mahanta" they would have done so
                        in the First JAN. 1, 1968 Monthly
                        Wisdom Note and Not one year later!

                        Therefore, even though the copyright
                        is 1980, I'm positive that these Wisdom
                        Notes are in their original form and
                        haven't been edited.

                        Plus, this is the only printing of these
                        combined Wisdom Notes! Why was it
                        printed nine years after Paul's death?
                        It was probably done as a tribute to
                        Paul.

                        Prometheus


                        etznab@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                        > EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                        > thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:
                        >
                        > "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                        > January 1968--October 1971"
                        >
                        > *********
                        >
                        > I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We
                        > know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to
                        > Gail have in some places been edited and revised.
                        > Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may
                        > have been added retroactively, IMO.
                        >
                        > What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are
                        > in their exact original form?
                        >
                        > I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the
                        > new modern terms were added that they could
                        > only be added in some places. In other places the
                        > older tems remain because the newer ones would
                        > have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                        > original meanings too dramatically.
                        >
                        > I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book
                        > put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,
                        > there was a time when I believed the Eck books I
                        > had access to were mostly the way they appeared
                        > to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.
                        >
                        > If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and
                        > change them in some places, IMO that would
                        > make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-
                        > line and history.
                        >
                        > Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                        > not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                        > them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                        > if anything was revised,
                        > would there be a way to
                        > tell?
                        >
                        > BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form
                        > of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.
                        > Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in
                        > book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.
                        > And just one year before appointment of a new
                        > LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!
                        >
                        > Etznab
                      • Elizabeth
                        Etznab keep checking ebay for eckankar sales! Lot s of ex members selling off their items, some currently are really old, and pre eckankar but the asking price
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                          Etznab keep checking ebay for eckankar sales! Lot's of ex members selling off their items, some currently are really old, and pre eckankar but the asking price is pretty high!
                           
                          Liz
                           
                            > The original Wisdom Notes from the time
                          when they first came out could be compared
                          side by side with the 1980 book. However, I
                          can't do this because all I have is the 1980
                          book version.
                           
                             Prometheus, what version did your quotes
                          come from? What was the source copyright?
                           
                             The last paragraph of the 1980 book intro -
                          signed by Darwin Gross - appears to indicate
                          the Wisdom Notes in that book were "just as
                          he [Paul Twitchell] brought them out from
                          January 1968 to October 1971." IMO.
                           
                          Etznab
                           
                           
                           
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          Prometheus, I think you re right about Paul Twitchell s Wisdom Notes not being changed by Darwin Gross. My point was that I didn t know for sure whether
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                            Prometheus,

                            I think you're right about Paul Twitchell's Wisdom
                            Notes not being changed by Darwin Gross.

                            My point was that I didn't know for sure whether
                            anything was different.

                            Etznab

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 2:25 am
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: When Twitchell First Created
                            the "Mahanta"



                            Hello Etznab and All,

                            It's pretty obvious to me that these

                            Wisdom Notes of Twitchell's have

                            Not been edited. Darwin didn't

                            allow people to edit the Holy words

                            of EK coming from Paul... DG was

                            a purist. This can be seen in the

                            other works of Twitchell's coming

                            from Darwin's era. It was a Hands

                            Off attitude when it came to changing

                            what Paul had said, even when there

                            were contradictions.



                            However, Klemp can't deal with the

                            contradictions as easily and this is

                            why he has discontinued the printing

                            of many of Twitchell's books. Older

                            ECKists could compare the original

                            version to a newer edited one and

                            this would be too embarrassing for

                            Klemp and too difficult to explain

                            away as an "update."



                            Also, if someone was going to edit

                            and replace the term "Master" with

                            "Mahanta" they would have done so

                            in the First JAN. 1, 1968 Monthly

                            Wisdom Note and Not one year
                            later!



                            Therefore, even though the copyright

                            is 1980, I'm positive that these Wisdom

                            Notes are in their original form and

                            haven't been edited.



                            Plus, this is the only printing of these

                            combined Wisdom Notes! Why was it

                            printed nine years after Paul's death?

                            It was probably done as a tribute to

                            Paul.



                            Prometheus



                            etznab@... wrote:

                            >

                            >

                            > Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008

                            > EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch

                            > thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:

                            >

                            > "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes

                            > January 1968--October 1971"

                            >

                            > *********

                            >

                            > I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We

                            > know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to

                            > Gail have in some places been edited and revised.

                            > Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may

                            > have been added retroactively, IMO.

                            >

                            > What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are

                            > in their exact original form?

                            >

                            > I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the

                            > new modern terms were added that they could

                            > only be added in some places. In other places the

                            > older tems remain because the newer ones would

                            > have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                            0D
                            > original meanings too dramatically.

                            >

                            > I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book

                            > put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,

                            > there was a time when I believed the Eck books I

                            > had access to were mostly the way they appeared

                            > to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.

                            >

                            > If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and

                            > change them in some places, IMO that would

                            > make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-

                            > line and history.

                            >

                            > Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are

                            > not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote

                            > them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that

                            > if anything was revised,

                            > would there be a way to

                            > tell?

                            >

                            > BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form

                            > of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.

                            > Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in

                            > book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.

                            > And just one year before appointment of a new

                            > LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!

                            >

                            > Etznab
                          • drubezarne
                            Prometheus and Etznab I looked in my Wisdom Notes (I should just burn everything) and found that it had a 1980 copyright and a letter by Darwin Gross. The fact
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                              Prometheus and Etznab
                              I looked in my Wisdom Notes (I should just burn everything) and found
                              that it had a 1980 copyright and a letter by Darwin Gross. The fact
                              that it has Darwin's letter in it must mean that it was never edited
                              because Klemp purged all the Eckankar writings of anything relating to
                              Darwin. He also told all eckists to get rid of any of Darwin's
                              writings. It reminds of the way the Soviet Union would make people
                              disappear without a trace. They just erased them and pretended they
                              never existed.

                              When I opened the Wisdom Notes, I found an August 1, 1968 letter in
                              which Paul tried to convince his followers that they needed to pay for
                              the teachings of Eck. He starts the letter with the warning that it's
                              an extremely important one for all initiates. Then he tries to justify
                              why people have to pay either in coin or service (finding more converts).

                              We know he stole the teachings from Sant Mat, Scientology, Neville,
                              and others, but mostly from Sant Mat. Unlike Eckankar, Sant Mast is
                              free of charge and is offered in a spirit of compassion and service.

                              It's interesting to note that once a person leaves Eckankar and its
                              brainwashing, it's very easy to see the greed and vanity of Twitchell,
                              Gross, and Klemp and of course, their control tactics.

                              Regards
                              Liska
                            • prometheus_973
                              The When PT FIRST created the MAHANTA title was during the time Twitchell was writing his Monthly JAN. 1, 1969 issue of The Wisdom Notes. Observation and
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                                The "When" PT FIRST created the
                                MAHANTA title was during the time
                                Twitchell was writing his Monthly
                                JAN. 1, 1969 issue of "The Wisdom
                                Notes."

                                Observation and logic will show one
                                the progression and development
                                of Twitchell's Eckankar during the
                                time frame of these Wisdom Notes.

                                JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                uses all caps (upper case) when FIRST
                                using the term/title "MAHANTA."

                                SEPT. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                for the FIRST time uses "lower case"
                                letters when using the term/title "Mahanta."

                                FEB. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                FIRST uses both titles, "MAHANTA - the
                                living ECK Master" together!

                                JUNE 1, 1971 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                for the FIRST time capitalizes the "L" in
                                "Living ECK Master."

                                WHY did Twitchell feel compelled to
                                become a/the "Mahanta" versus a/the
                                "Master" or a/the "living (ECK) Master."

                                The reason for many of these changes
                                and posturing was PT's ego and hurt
                                feelings and the need he had to one-up
                                his former Master KIRPAL SINGH. Also,
                                Twitchell had to put his former chela
                                JOHN-ROGERS in his place since JR
                                copied Eckankar to start his own con.

                                Therefore, Twitchell had to distinguish
                                himself and his group (Eckankar) from
                                the others that he, also, copied. This is
                                also WHY PT needed to be HIGHER than
                                the rest, and put a palatable "Western"
                                spin upon these Eastern religions.

                                PT changed the "Vegetarian" rule and
                                the Passions of the Mind where the virtue
                                of Chastity corrects the passion of Lust.


                                And, the highest title "MAHANTA" was
                                needed. This would be used to close
                                the ears of PT's chelas and, thus, quiet
                                his critics. After all, those "lower" than
                                the Highest Consciousness Known to
                                Mankind (the MAHANTA) could never
                                understand because they were, now,
                                incapable of seeing from his (PT's)
                                vantage point! Twitchell became the
                                "highest" of self-appointed masters!

                                BTW-
                                When PT first created "ECKankar" (from
                                "ECKonkar") he would shorten the word
                                in his talks by calling it "ECK."

                                Also, (another "WHY" Twit created the LEM/
                                Mahanta) PT wanted to distinguish himself
                                from the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang
                                (Sant Mat) "living Masters." Thus, Paul
                                (also) added "ECK" to his LEM title. PT's
                                religion was no longer just another sect
                                of another sect, but was NOW it's own
                                "original" religion!

                                Therefore, PT now used the term/title
                                of living "ECK" Master versus Radhasoami's
                                "living Master." However, just like with
                                Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang PT still
                                used other terms and titles, of theirs, like
                                "Inner Master." This is where the "chicken
                                or egg" argument comes into play. After
                                all, didn't the "ECK" or "SPIRIT" come first!
                                Except, "ECK" or "ECKankar" was created
                                when Gail encouraged Paul to do something
                                with his "research" in 1965. The Truth is-
                                PT only created another religious sect,
                                and Klemp has distorted and personalized
                                the handed-down version of Paul's & Gail's
                                creation!

                                Prometheus

                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Etznab and All,
                                > It's pretty obvious to me that these
                                > Wisdom Notes of Twitchell's have
                                > Not been edited. Darwin didn't
                                > allow people to edit the Holy words
                                > of EK coming from Paul... DG was
                                > a purist. This can be seen in the
                                > other works of Twitchell's coming
                                > from Darwin's era. It was a Hands
                                > Off attitude when it came to changing
                                > what Paul had said, even when there
                                > were contradictions.
                                >
                                > However, Klemp can't deal with the
                                > contradictions as easily and this is
                                > why he has discontinued the printing
                                > of many of Twitchell's books. Older
                                > ECKists could compare the original
                                > version to a newer edited one and
                                > this would be too embarrassing for
                                > Klemp and too difficult to explain
                                > away as an "update."
                                >
                                > Also, if someone was going to edit
                                > and replace the term "Master" with
                                > "Mahanta" they would have done so
                                > in the First JAN. 1, 1968 Monthly
                                > Wisdom Note and Not one year later!
                                >
                                > Therefore, even though the copyright
                                > is 1980, I'm positive that these Wisdom
                                > Notes are in their original form and
                                > haven't been edited.
                                >
                                > Plus, this is the only printing of these
                                > combined Wisdom Notes! Why was it
                                > printed nine years after Paul's death?
                                > It was probably done as a tribute to
                                > Paul.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > etznab@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                                > > EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                                > > thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:
                                > >
                                > > "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                                > > January 1968--October 1971"
                                > >
                                > > *********
                                > >
                                I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We
                                know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to
                                Gail have in some places been edited and revised.
                                Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may
                                have been added retroactively, IMO.
                                > >
                                What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are
                                in their exact original form?
                                > >
                                I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the
                                new modern terms were added that they could
                                only be added in some places. In other places the
                                older tems remain because the newer ones would
                                have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                                original meanings too dramatically.
                                > >
                                I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book
                                put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,
                                there was a time when I believed the Eck books I
                                had access to were mostly the way they appeared
                                to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.
                                > >
                                If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and
                                change them in some places, IMO that would
                                make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-
                                line and history.
                                > >
                                Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                                not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                                them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                                if anything was revised, would there be a way to
                                tell?
                                > >
                                BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form
                                of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.
                                Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in
                                book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.
                                And just one year before appointment of a new
                                LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!
                                > >
                                Etznab
                                ################################
                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                *In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                                The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "MAHANTA"
                                and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in
                                the same sentence, but NOT together!

                                Here's the quote:
                                PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK
                                Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta
                                to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as
                                the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]

                                In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit
                                doesn't mention the "MAHANTA" at all! Instead,
                                PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;
                                the living ECK Master."

                                The next time Twitchell uses "MAHANTA" in
                                the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"
                                is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM
                                NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master
                                becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]

                                Twitchell doesn't menton the "MAHANTA" again
                                until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,
                                but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)
                                with the "living ECK Master."

                                *In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom
                                Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term
                                "MAHANTA," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"
                                for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing
                                the "l" in "living ECK Master."

                                *FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom
                                Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only
                                one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "MAHANTA"
                                and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!
                                Here's the quote [pg.53]:

                                "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power
                                is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the
                                living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all
                                caps!


                                Twitchell does Not mention the "MAHANTA" in
                                the March 1, 1970 issue.

                                *But here's the quote for APRIL 1, 1970:
                                "The fifth initiation and beyond are given
                                only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK Master."

                                This was the FIRST time PT uses a COMMA
                                instead of a HYPHEN to separate the two titles,
                                and "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while
                                "living" is still in lower case.

                                In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
                                Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the
                                "living ECK Master" but Not to both!

                                *In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"
                                Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"
                                WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living
                                ECK Master" is still lower case!

                                *FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses
                                "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")
                                in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom
                                Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the
                                term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!

                                PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971
                                Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower
                                case in "living ECK Master."

                                Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971
                                "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE
                                "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that
                                I counted 3 or 4 times that Twitchell used these
                                two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.
                                1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."

                                Prometheus
                              • drubezarne
                                That conman, Twitchell, also, appropriated the blue star, the white light, and the inner sounds. I remember in the early writings he said Eckankar was the only
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                                  That conman, Twitchell, also, appropriated the blue star, the white
                                  light, and the inner sounds. I remember in the early writings he said
                                  Eckankar was the only path that had the light and the sound. Later,
                                  Klemp was forced to take this outrageous claim out of the literature
                                  because there are many paths that talk about the light and the sound.

                                  The phenomenon of seeing the blue star is a common occurance. There's
                                  even a scientific term for it - entoptic phenomenon. The star, the
                                  light, and the inner sounds have been known for ages in Hindu
                                  literature. Those, fortunate enough to witness these on the inner
                                  planes are seeing and hearing the presence of the Supreme Being and
                                  not Twitchell's and Klemp's fabrication of a Mahanta. You see how
                                  these false masters have the gall to replace God with their own
                                  overblown ego?

                                  Regards
                                  Liska

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The "When" PT FIRST created the
                                  > MAHANTA title was during the time
                                  > Twitchell was writing his Monthly
                                  > JAN. 1, 1969 issue of "The Wisdom
                                  > Notes."
                                  >
                                  > Observation and logic will show one
                                  > the progression and development
                                  > of Twitchell's Eckankar during the
                                  > time frame of these Wisdom Notes.
                                  >
                                  > JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                  > uses all caps (upper case) when FIRST
                                  > using the term/title "MAHANTA."
                                  >
                                  > SEPT. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                  > for the FIRST time uses "lower case"
                                  > letters when using the term/title "Mahanta."
                                  >
                                  > FEB. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                  > FIRST uses both titles, "MAHANTA - the
                                  > living ECK Master" together!
                                  >
                                  > JUNE 1, 1971 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                  > for the FIRST time capitalizes the "L" in
                                  > "Living ECK Master."
                                  >
                                  > WHY did Twitchell feel compelled to
                                  > become a/the "Mahanta" versus a/the
                                  > "Master" or a/the "living (ECK) Master."
                                  >
                                  > The reason for many of these changes
                                  > and posturing was PT's ego and hurt
                                  > feelings and the need he had to one-up
                                  > his former Master KIRPAL SINGH. Also,
                                  > Twitchell had to put his former chela
                                  > JOHN-ROGERS in his place since JR
                                  > copied Eckankar to start his own con.
                                  >
                                  > Therefore, Twitchell had to distinguish
                                  > himself and his group (Eckankar) from
                                  > the others that he, also, copied. This is
                                  > also WHY PT needed to be HIGHER than
                                  > the rest, and put a palatable "Western"
                                  > spin upon these Eastern religions.
                                  >
                                  > PT changed the "Vegetarian" rule and
                                  > the Passions of the Mind where the virtue
                                  > of Chastity corrects the passion of Lust.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > And, the highest title "MAHANTA" was
                                  > needed. This would be used to close
                                  > the ears of PT's chelas and, thus, quiet
                                  > his critics. After all, those "lower" than
                                  > the Highest Consciousness Known to
                                  > Mankind (the MAHANTA) could never
                                  > understand because they were, now,
                                  > incapable of seeing from his (PT's)
                                  > vantage point! Twitchell became the
                                  > "highest" of self-appointed masters!
                                  >
                                  > BTW-
                                  > When PT first created "ECKankar" (from
                                  > "ECKonkar") he would shorten the word
                                  > in his talks by calling it "ECK."
                                  >
                                  > Also, (another "WHY" Twit created the LEM/
                                  > Mahanta) PT wanted to distinguish himself
                                  > from the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang
                                  > (Sant Mat) "living Masters." Thus, Paul
                                  > (also) added "ECK" to his LEM title. PT's
                                  > religion was no longer just another sect
                                  > of another sect, but was NOW it's own
                                  > "original" religion!
                                  >
                                  > Therefore, PT now used the term/title
                                  > of living "ECK" Master versus Radhasoami's
                                  > "living Master." However, just like with
                                  > Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang PT still
                                  > used other terms and titles, of theirs, like
                                  > "Inner Master." This is where the "chicken
                                  > or egg" argument comes into play. After
                                  > all, didn't the "ECK" or "SPIRIT" come first!
                                  > Except, "ECK" or "ECKankar" was created
                                  > when Gail encouraged Paul to do something
                                  > with his "research" in 1965. The Truth is-
                                  > PT only created another religious sect,
                                  > and Klemp has distorted and personalized
                                  > the handed-down version of Paul's & Gail's
                                  > creation!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > > It's pretty obvious to me that these
                                  > > Wisdom Notes of Twitchell's have
                                  > > Not been edited. Darwin didn't
                                  > > allow people to edit the Holy words
                                  > > of EK coming from Paul... DG was
                                  > > a purist. This can be seen in the
                                  > > other works of Twitchell's coming
                                  > > from Darwin's era. It was a Hands
                                  > > Off attitude when it came to changing
                                  > > what Paul had said, even when there
                                  > > were contradictions.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, Klemp can't deal with the
                                  > > contradictions as easily and this is
                                  > > why he has discontinued the printing
                                  > > of many of Twitchell's books. Older
                                  > > ECKists could compare the original
                                  > > version to a newer edited one and
                                  > > this would be too embarrassing for
                                  > > Klemp and too difficult to explain
                                  > > away as an "update."
                                  > >
                                  > > Also, if someone was going to edit
                                  > > and replace the term "Master" with
                                  > > "Mahanta" they would have done so
                                  > > in the First JAN. 1, 1968 Monthly
                                  > > Wisdom Note and Not one year later!
                                  > >
                                  > > Therefore, even though the copyright
                                  > > is 1980, I'm positive that these Wisdom
                                  > > Notes are in their original form and
                                  > > haven't been edited.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, this is the only printing of these
                                  > > combined Wisdom Notes! Why was it
                                  > > printed nine years after Paul's death?
                                  > > It was probably done as a tribute to
                                  > > Paul.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > etznab@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                                  > > > EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                                  > > > thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                                  > > > January 1968--October 1971"
                                  > > >
                                  > > > *********
                                  > > >
                                  > I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We
                                  > know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to
                                  > Gail have in some places been edited and revised.
                                  > Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may
                                  > have been added retroactively, IMO.
                                  > > >
                                  > What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are
                                  > in their exact original form?
                                  > > >
                                  > I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the
                                  > new modern terms were added that they could
                                  > only be added in some places. In other places the
                                  > older tems remain because the newer ones would
                                  > have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                                  > original meanings too dramatically.
                                  > > >
                                  > I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book
                                  > put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,
                                  > there was a time when I believed the Eck books I
                                  > had access to were mostly the way they appeared
                                  > to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.
                                  > > >
                                  > If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and
                                  > change them in some places, IMO that would
                                  > make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-
                                  > line and history.
                                  > > >
                                  > Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                                  > not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                                  > them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                                  > if anything was revised, would there be a way to
                                  > tell?
                                  > > >
                                  > BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form
                                  > of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.
                                  > Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in
                                  > book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.
                                  > And just one year before appointment of a new
                                  > LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!
                                  > > >
                                  > Etznab
                                  > ################################
                                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > *In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                                  > The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "MAHANTA"
                                  > and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in
                                  > the same sentence, but NOT together!
                                  >
                                  > Here's the quote:
                                  > PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK
                                  > Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta
                                  > to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as
                                  > the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]
                                  >
                                  > In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit
                                  > doesn't mention the "MAHANTA" at all! Instead,
                                  > PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;
                                  > the living ECK Master."
                                  >
                                  > The next time Twitchell uses "MAHANTA" in
                                  > the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"
                                  > is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM
                                  > NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master
                                  > becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]
                                  >
                                  > Twitchell doesn't menton the "MAHANTA" again
                                  > until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,
                                  > but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)
                                  > with the "living ECK Master."
                                  >
                                  > *In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom
                                  > Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term
                                  > "MAHANTA," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"
                                  > for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing
                                  > the "l" in "living ECK Master."
                                  >
                                  > *FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom
                                  > Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only
                                  > one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "MAHANTA"
                                  > and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!
                                  > Here's the quote [pg.53]:
                                  >
                                  > "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power
                                  > is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the
                                  > living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all
                                  > caps!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Twitchell does Not mention the "MAHANTA" in
                                  > the March 1, 1970 issue.
                                  >
                                  > *But here's the quote for APRIL 1, 1970:
                                  > "The fifth initiation and beyond are given
                                  > only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK Master."
                                  >
                                  > This was the FIRST time PT uses a COMMA
                                  > instead of a HYPHEN to separate the two titles,
                                  > and "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while
                                  > "living" is still in lower case.
                                  >
                                  > In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
                                  > Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the
                                  > "living ECK Master" but Not to both!
                                  >
                                  > *In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"
                                  > Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"
                                  > WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living
                                  > ECK Master" is still lower case!
                                  >
                                  > *FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses
                                  > "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")
                                  > in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom
                                  > Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the
                                  > term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!
                                  >
                                  > PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971
                                  > Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower
                                  > case in "living ECK Master."
                                  >
                                  > Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971
                                  > "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE
                                  > "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that
                                  > I counted 3 or 4 times that Twitchell used these
                                  > two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.
                                  > 1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello All, Here s a disclaimer and Catch-22 for Twitchell s con that Klemp has adopted for himself: Next, we must examine the paradox of the perfect Master.
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 26, 2008
                                    Hello All,
                                    Here's a disclaimer and Catch-22 for
                                    Twitchell's con that Klemp has adopted
                                    for himself:

                                    "Next, we must examine the paradox of the
                                    perfect Master. By dwelling here in the human
                                    form, among us, he is then a man. All that
                                    exists on this physical plane subsist in the
                                    illusion of maya, where all is darkness and
                                    ignorance. Therefore, we know then that all
                                    we experience in this world, see with these
                                    eyes, hear with these ears and perceive with
                                    the intellect is only delusion and darkness.
                                    Then the ECK Master in his outer form with
                                    his oral instructions and writings are also
                                    in darkness because they too are within the
                                    sphere of physical phenomena. So we find
                                    that the outer Master dwells in darkness,
                                    and speaks in the utter delusion of physical
                                    phenomena, but the inner Master exists in
                                    the true light awaiting all those who come
                                    to him." [JULY 1, 1968 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                                    The Wisdom Notes"]

                                    So, what's the point in having a "Living" Master
                                    when "his oral instructions and writings" are of
                                    "utter delusion and darkness?" How is that a
                                    "paradox," for him, anymore than it is for anyone
                                    else? Do as I say, and Not as I do must be another
                                    paradox! LOL!

                                    BTW-
                                    It should be noted that in this entire Monthly
                                    issue for the JULY 1, 1968 The Wisdom Notes
                                    that Paul did not mention the "LEM" let alone
                                    the "Mahanta!"

                                    Instead, Twitchell uses these terms and caps:

                                    "the inner Master"
                                    "the outer Master"
                                    "the living Master"
                                    "the Master"
                                    "the Sat Guru"
                                    "the ECK Master"
                                    "the man-God"

                                    What happened to the living "ECK" Master
                                    title? The LEM title was never used because
                                    it hadn't been invented as yet!

                                    Twitchell didn't use the title of "living ECK
                                    Master" until the NOVEMBER 1, 1968 "The
                                    Wisdom Notes."

                                    The "MAHANTA" title first appeared in the
                                    JAN. 1, 1969 "The Wisdom Notes."

                                    Prometheus

                                    Liska wrote:
                                    That conman, Twitchell, also, appropriated
                                    the blue star, the white light, and the inner
                                    sounds. I remember in the early writings he
                                    said Eckankar was the only path that had the
                                    light and the sound. Later, Klemp was forced
                                    to take this outrageous claim out of the literature
                                    because there are many paths that talk about
                                    the light and the sound.

                                    The phenomenon of seeing the blue star is
                                    a common occurance. There's even a scientific
                                    term for it - entoptic phenomenon. The star,
                                    the light, and the inner sounds have been known
                                    for ages in Hindu literature. Those, fortunate
                                    enough to witness these on the inner planes
                                    are seeing and hearing the presence of the
                                    Supreme Being and not Twitchell's and Klemp's
                                    fabrication of a Mahanta. You see how these
                                    false masters have the gall to replace God with
                                    their own overblown ego?


                                    prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The "When" PT FIRST created the
                                    > MAHANTA title was during the time
                                    > Twitchell was writing his Monthly
                                    > JAN. 1, 1969 issue of "The Wisdom
                                    > Notes."
                                    >
                                    > Observation and logic will show one
                                    > the progression and development
                                    > of Twitchell's Eckankar during the
                                    > time frame of these Wisdom Notes.
                                    >
                                    > JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                    > uses all caps (upper case) when FIRST
                                    > using the term/title "MAHANTA."
                                    >
                                    > SEPT. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                    > for the FIRST time uses "lower case"
                                    > letters when using the term/title "Mahanta."
                                    >
                                    > FEB. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                    > FIRST uses both titles, "MAHANTA - the
                                    > living ECK Master" together!
                                    >
                                    > JUNE 1, 1971 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                    > for the FIRST time capitalizes the "L" in
                                    > "Living ECK Master."
                                    >
                                    > WHY did Twitchell feel compelled to
                                    > become a/the "Mahanta" versus a/the
                                    > "Master" or a/the "living (ECK) Master."
                                    >
                                    > The reason for many of these changes
                                    > and posturing was PT's ego and hurt
                                    > feelings and the need he had to one-up
                                    > his former Master KIRPAL SINGH. Also,
                                    > Twitchell had to put his former chela
                                    > JOHN-ROGERS in his place since JR
                                    > copied Eckankar to start his own con.
                                    >
                                    > Therefore, Twitchell had to distinguish
                                    > himself and his group (Eckankar) from
                                    > the others that he, also, copied. This is
                                    > also WHY PT needed to be HIGHER than
                                    > the rest, and put a palatable "Western"
                                    > spin upon these Eastern religions.
                                    >
                                    > PT changed the "Vegetarian" rule and
                                    > the Passions of the Mind where the virtue
                                    > of Chastity corrects the passion of Lust.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > And, the highest title "MAHANTA" was
                                    > needed. This would be used to close
                                    > the ears of PT's chelas and, thus, quiet
                                    > his critics. After all, those "lower" than
                                    > the Highest Consciousness Known to
                                    > Mankind (the MAHANTA) could never
                                    > understand because they were, now,
                                    > incapable of seeing from his (PT's)
                                    > vantage point! Twitchell became the
                                    > "highest" of self-appointed masters!
                                    >
                                    > BTW-
                                    > When PT first created "ECKankar" (from
                                    > "ECKonkar") he would shorten the word
                                    > in his talks by calling it "ECK."
                                    >
                                    > Also, (another "WHY" Twit created the LEM/
                                    > Mahanta) PT wanted to distinguish himself
                                    > from the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang
                                    > (Sant Mat) "living Masters." Thus, Paul
                                    > (also) added "ECK" to his LEM title. PT's
                                    > religion was no longer just another sect
                                    > of another sect, but was NOW it's own
                                    > "original" religion!
                                    >
                                    > Therefore, PT now used the term/title
                                    > of living "ECK" Master versus Radhasoami's
                                    > "living Master." However, just like with
                                    > Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang PT still
                                    > used other terms and titles, of theirs, like
                                    > "Inner Master." This is where the "chicken
                                    > or egg" argument comes into play. After
                                    > all, didn't the "ECK" or "SPIRIT" come first!
                                    > Except, "ECK" or "ECKankar" was created
                                    > when Gail encouraged Paul to do something
                                    > with his "research" in 1965. The Truth is-
                                    > PT only created another religious sect,
                                    > and Klemp has distorted and personalized
                                    > the handed-down version of Paul's & Gail's
                                    > creation!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                  • etznab@aol.com
                                    E.S.A., I found it somwhat curious that when the MAHANTA term appeared in the wisdom notes that there wasn t more history about where this term came from. I
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 26, 2008
                                      E.S.A.,

                                      I found it somwhat curious that when the
                                      "MAHANTA" term appeared in the wisdom
                                      notes that there wasn't more history about
                                      where this term came from. I mean, if really
                                      so new, shouldn't it have come with more
                                      history and explanation?

                                      The word itself is not even English. One
                                      with the same letters has existed for many
                                      years anterior to the trademarked Eckankar
                                      all caps version, but not in English, IMO.

                                      Making it "different", IMO, means giving
                                      the creator liberty to define it different from
                                      other forms and the definitions attached to
                                      them.

                                      No place do I see in the writings of Paul
                                      Twitchell an attempt to illustrate the "etym-
                                      ology" of this word as it existed previously.
                                      Either I haven't seen it, missed it, forgot I
                                      saw it, or the explanation never existed.

                                      [Well, there was a reference to the word
                                      "mahantas" - in the Forward to The Tiger's
                                      Fang, written by Brad Steiger and dated
                                      October 1968, mind you. It was in italics
                                      as late as the 8th Printing 1979 version,
                                      and was supposed to have been Brad S.
                                      quoting Paul Twitchell. Paul's Intro to The
                                      Tiger's Fang carries the same sentence -
                                      which would appear (IMO) to indicate it
                                      was a quote (by Brad in the Forward) of
                                      Paul Twitchell, but the word mahantas,
                                      in Paul's Intro, is replaced by the word
                                      teachers! Incidentally, the same Brad
                                      Steiger Forward appears in the 1969
                                      version of The Tiger's Fang, however,
                                      an Intro=2
                                      0by Paul Twitchell does NOT!
                                      Intro I read was in the 1979 version -
                                      followed by the name Paul Twitchell
                                      typed. The context for "mahantas" -
                                      as used by Brad Steiger was - app-
                                      arently - tied to the term "spiritual
                                      travelers". Both words "mahantas"
                                      & "spiritual travelers" appear to be
                                      plural. NOT singular.]

                                      Another word I am looking for explanation,
                                      history and etymology for is Mahavakyis -
                                      a word associated with the "Silent Ones", I
                                      believe.

                                      Neither "mahanta" or "mahavakyis" is too
                                      terribly difficult to decipher, IMO, concerning
                                      their history prior to Eckankar Inc.

                                      For the latter, I would have to ask: What
                                      language is that? There is a word in Sanskrit
                                      (and in Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters)
                                      that looks something like mahavakya. In this
                                      illustration I see the elements "maha" + "vak"
                                      + ya.

                                      On the following link you can type the word
                                      mahavakya - in space adjacent "Word in Primary
                                      Language (Sanskrit, Tamil, Pahlavi) - and then
                                      click search. There is a definition.

                                      Also, you can search for the elements "maha"
                                      and "vakya" for their definitions as well. Incidentally,
                                      the root in vakya ["vak"] is curiously similar to that
                                      for the Sanskrit root "vac". The Latin root for "voice"
                                      is "voc" (perhaps "vox") and letter "k" is generally
                                      thought to be "older" than the letter "c". "Vac," &
                                      "Vach" - in Hindu mythology I have seen - has a
                                      connection to the feminine, or the "female" sid
                                      e of
                                      creation.

                                      What is interesting to me is that I don't neces-
                                      sarily see the idea of "nine" or "silent" in the word
                                      mahavakyis (or in mahavakya, for that matter). So
                                      I still wonder about the etymology of this word.

                                      Etznab

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:32 pm
                                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: When & Why Twitchell First
                                      Created the "Mahanta"



                                      Hello All,

                                      Here's a disclaimer and Catch-22 for

                                      Twitchell's con that Klemp has adopted

                                      for himself:



                                      "Next, we must examine the paradox of the

                                      perfect Master. By dwelling here in the human

                                      form, among us, he is then a man. All that

                                      exists on this physical plane subsist in the

                                      illusion of maya, where all is darkness and

                                      ignorance. Therefore, we know then that all

                                      we experience in this world, see with these

                                      eyes, hear with these ears and perceive with

                                      the intellect is only delusion and darkness.

                                      Then the ECK Master in his outer form with

                                      his oral instructions and writings are also

                                      in darkness because they too are within the

                                      sphere of physical phenomena. So we find

                                      that the outer Master dwells in darkness,

                                      and speaks in the utter delusion of physical

                                      phenomena, but the inner Master exists in

                                      the true light awaiting all those who come

                                      to him." [JU
                                      LY 1, 1968 "Paul Twitchell Presents:

                                      The Wisdom Notes"]



                                      So, what's the point in having a "Living" Master

                                      when "his oral instructions and writings" are of

                                      "utter delusion and darkness?" How is that a

                                      "paradox," for him, anymore than it is for anyone

                                      else? Do as I say, and Not as I do must be another

                                      paradox! LOL!



                                      BTW-

                                      It should be noted that in this entire Monthly

                                      issue for the JULY 1, 1968 The Wisdom Notes

                                      that Paul did not mention the "LEM" let alone

                                      the "Mahanta!"



                                      Instead, Twitchell uses these terms and caps:



                                      "the inner Master"

                                      "the outer Master"

                                      "the living Master"

                                      "the Master"

                                      "the Sat Guru"

                                      "the ECK Master"

                                      "the man-God"



                                      What happened to the living "ECK" Master

                                      title? The LEM title was never used because

                                      it hadn't been invented as yet!



                                      Twitchell didn't use the title of "living ECK

                                      Master" until the NOVEMBER 1, 1968 "The

                                      Wisdom Notes."



                                      The "MAHANTA" title first appeared in the

                                      JAN. 1, 1969 "The Wisdom Notes."



                                      Prometheus



                                      Liska wrote:

                                      That conman, Twitchell, also, appropriated

                                      the blue star, the white light, and the inner

                                      sounds. I remember in the early writings he

                                      said Eckankar was the only path that had the

                                      light and the sound. Later, Klemp was forced

                                      to take this outrageo
                                      us claim out of the literature

                                      because there are many paths that talk about

                                      the light and the sound.



                                      The phenomenon of seeing the blue star is

                                      a common occurance. There's even a scientific

                                      term for it - entoptic phenomenon. The star,

                                      the light, and the inner sounds have been known

                                      for ages in Hindu literature. Those, fortunate

                                      enough to witness these on the inner planes

                                      are seeing and hearing the presence of the

                                      Supreme Being and not Twitchell's and Klemp's

                                      fabrication of a Mahanta. You see how these

                                      false masters have the gall to replace God with

                                      their own overblown ego?



                                      prometheus wrote:

                                      >

                                      > The "When" PT FIRST created the

                                      > MAHANTA title was during the time

                                      > Twitchell was writing his Monthly

                                      > JAN. 1, 1969 issue of "The Wisdom

                                      > Notes."

                                      >

                                      > Observation and logic will show one

                                      > the progression and development

                                      > of Twitchell's Eckankar during the

                                      > time frame of these Wisdom Notes.

                                      >

                                      > JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes Twitchell

                                      > uses all caps (upper case) when FIRST

                                      > using the term/title "MAHANTA."

                                      >

                                      > SEPT. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell

                                      > for the FIRST time uses "lower case"

                                      > letters when using the term/title "Mahanta."

                                      >

                                      > FEB. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell

                                      > FIRST uses both ti
                                      tles, "MAHANTA - the

                                      > living ECK Master" together!

                                      >

                                      > JUNE 1, 1971 Wisdom Notes Twitchell

                                      > for the FIRST time capitalizes the "L" in

                                      > "Living ECK Master."

                                      >

                                      > WHY did Twitchell feel compelled to

                                      > become a/the "Mahanta" versus a/the

                                      > "Master" or a/the "living (ECK) Master."

                                      >

                                      > The reason for many of these changes

                                      > and posturing was PT's ego and hurt

                                      > feelings and the need he had to one-up

                                      > his former Master KIRPAL SINGH. Also,

                                      > Twitchell had to put his former chela

                                      > JOHN-ROGERS in his place since JR

                                      > copied Eckankar to start his own con.

                                      >

                                      > Therefore, Twitchell had to distinguish

                                      > himself and his group (Eckankar) from

                                      > the others that he, also, copied. This is

                                      > also WHY PT needed to be HIGHER than

                                      > the rest, and put a palatable "Western"

                                      > spin upon these Eastern religions.

                                      >

                                      > PT changed the "Vegetarian" rule and

                                      > the Passions of the Mind where the virtue

                                      > of Chastity corrects the passion of Lust.

                                      >

                                      >

                                      > And, the highest title "MAHANTA" was

                                      > needed. This would be used to close

                                      > the ears of PT's chelas and, thus, quiet

                                      > his critics. After all, those "lower" than

                                      > the Highest Consciousness Known to

                                      > Mankind (the MAHANTA) could ne
                                      ver

                                      > understand because they were, now,

                                      > incapable of seeing from his (PT's)

                                      > vantage point! Twitchell became the

                                      > "highest" of self-appointed masters!

                                      >

                                      > BTW-

                                      > When PT first created "ECKankar" (from

                                      > "ECKonkar") he would shorten the word

                                      > in his talks by calling it "ECK."

                                      >

                                      > Also, (another "WHY" Twit created the LEM/

                                      > Mahanta) PT wanted to distinguish himself

                                      > from the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang

                                      > (Sant Mat) "living Masters." Thus, Paul

                                      > (also) added "ECK" to his LEM title. PT's

                                      > religion was no longer just another sect

                                      > of another sect, but was NOW it's own

                                      > "original" religion!

                                      >

                                      > Therefore, PT now used the term/title

                                      > of living "ECK" Master versus Radhasoami's

                                      > "living Master." However, just like with

                                      > Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang PT still

                                      > used other terms and titles, of theirs, like

                                      > "Inner Master." This is where the "chicken

                                      > or egg" argument comes into play. After

                                      > all, didn't the "ECK" or "SPIRIT" come first!

                                      > Except, "ECK" or "ECKankar" was created

                                      > when Gail encouraged Paul to do something

                                      > with his "research" in 1965. The Truth is-

                                      > PT only created another religious sect,

                                      > and Klemp has distorted and personalized

                                      > the handed-down version of Paul's & Gail's


                                      > creation!

                                      >

                                      > Prometheus
                                    • etznab@aol.com
                                      Sorry, I forgot to give a dictionary link for my previous response to this thread: http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ Etznab
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 26, 2008
                                        Sorry, I forgot to give a dictionary link
                                        for my previous response to this thread:

                                        http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/

                                        Etznab
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hi Etznab and All, PT s lies evolved! If Steiger did get the term mahantas from Twitchell in October 1968 and Twitchell wrote the JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 27, 2008
                                          Hi Etznab and All,
                                          PT's lies evolved! If Steiger did get
                                          the term "mahantas" from Twitchell in
                                          October 1968 and Twitchell wrote the
                                          JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes (where he
                                          first mentions MAHANTA) in the previous
                                          month of DEC. 1968 then this does show
                                          the evolution of Twitchell's lies and con
                                          of Eckankar.

                                          It's not really all that strange that Twitchell
                                          didn't give any background on the "mahanta."
                                          He didn't need to right away. PT could just
                                          equate the mahanta title to that of the "Inner
                                          Master."

                                          Where in Eckankar then or now do you see
                                          any "etymology?" Look at the word Eckankar
                                          versus Eckonkar!

                                          Does Klemp really want to discuss etymology?
                                          Besides, in both New Age and Fundamentalist
                                          Religions it is not necessary for their members
                                          to dot all of the "i's" or cross all of the "t's!"
                                          Faith and Belief come into play more than Facts
                                          or Truth!

                                          Prometheus



                                          etznab@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > E.S.A.,
                                          >
                                          > I found it somwhat curious that when the
                                          > "MAHANTA" term appeared in the wisdom
                                          > notes that there wasn't more history about
                                          > where this term came from. I mean, if really
                                          > so new, shouldn't it have come with more
                                          > history and explanation?
                                          >
                                          > The word itself is not even English. One
                                          > with the same letters has existed for many
                                          > years anterior to the trademarked Eckankar
                                          > all caps version, but not in English, IMO.
                                          >
                                          > Making it "different", IMO, means giving
                                          > the creator liberty to define it different from
                                          > other forms and the definitions attached to
                                          > them.
                                          >
                                          > No place do I see in the writings of Paul
                                          > Twitchell an attempt to illustrate the "etym-
                                          > ology" of this word as it existed previously.
                                          > Either I haven't seen it, missed it, forgot I
                                          > saw it, or the explanation never existed.
                                          >
                                          > [Well, there was a reference to the word
                                          > "mahantas" - in the Forward to The Tiger's
                                          > Fang, written by Brad Steiger and dated
                                          > October 1968, mind you. It was in italics
                                          > as late as the 8th Printing 1979 version,
                                          > and was supposed to have been Brad S.
                                          > quoting Paul Twitchell. Paul's Intro to The
                                          > Tiger's Fang carries the same sentence -
                                          > which would appear (IMO) to indicate it
                                          > was a quote (by Brad in the Forward) of
                                          > Paul Twitchell, but the word mahantas,
                                          > in Paul's Intro, is replaced by the word
                                          > teachers! Incidentally, the same Brad
                                          > Steiger Forward appears in the 1969
                                          > version of The Tiger's Fang, however,
                                          > an Intro=2
                                          > 0by Paul Twitchell does NOT!
                                          > Intro I read was in the 1979 version -
                                          > followed by the name Paul Twitchell
                                          > typed. The context for "mahantas" -
                                          > as used by Brad Steiger was - app-
                                          > arently - tied to the term "spiritual
                                          > travelers". Both words "mahantas"
                                          > & "spiritual travelers" appear to be
                                          > plural. NOT singular.]
                                          >
                                          > Another word I am looking for explanation,
                                          > history and etymology for is Mahavakyis -
                                          > a word associated with the "Silent Ones", I
                                          > believe.
                                          >
                                          > Neither "mahanta" or "mahavakyis" is too
                                          > terribly difficult to decipher, IMO, concerning
                                          > their history prior to Eckankar Inc.
                                          >
                                          > For the latter, I would have to ask: What
                                          > language is that? There is a word in Sanskrit
                                          > (and in Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters)
                                          > that looks something like mahavakya. In this
                                          > illustration I see the elements "maha" + "vak"
                                          > + ya.
                                          >
                                          > On the following link you can type the word
                                          > mahavakya - in space adjacent "Word in Primary
                                          > Language (Sanskrit, Tamil, Pahlavi) - and then
                                          > click search. There is a definition.
                                          >
                                          > Also, you can search for the elements "maha"
                                          > and "vakya" for their definitions as well. Incidentally,
                                          > the root in vakya ["vak"] is curiously similar to that
                                          > for the Sanskrit root "vac". The Latin root for "voice"
                                          > is "voc" (perhaps "vox") and letter "k" is generally
                                          > thought to be "older" than the letter "c". "Vac," &
                                          > "Vach" - in Hindu mythology I have seen - has a
                                          > connection to the feminine, or the "female" sid
                                          > e of
                                          > creation.
                                          >
                                          > What is interesting to me is that I don't neces-
                                          > sarily see the idea of "nine" or "silent" in the word
                                          > mahavakyis (or in mahavakya, for that matter). So
                                          > I still wonder about the etymology of this word.
                                          >
                                          > Etznab
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