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Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand Up

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  • drubezarne
    After reading With a Great Master in India by Julian Johnson, I have a pretty good idea who the real Sudar Singh is. Julian Johnson describes his travels in
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 18, 2008
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      After reading With a Great Master in India by Julian Johnson, I have a
      pretty good idea who the real Sudar Singh is. Julian Johnson describes
      his travels in India with his master Sawan Singh. His description of
      these travels and his master's background and appearance fit the
      description that Paul Twitchell gives Sudar Singh. In fact, they are
      so close that they can only be the same person - Sawan Singh. If you
      read Travels with a Great Master, you will immediately recognize that
      Sudar Singh is Sawan Singh.

      Here's what Paul Twitchell said, "We met with Sudar Singh who was the
      leading advocate at that time of Soul Travel... He was rather a tall,
      lean man. He had a very lean face at the time, and he had started out
      as a Sikh in his life and changed later because he was in his early
      twenties when he came back to ECKANKAR."

      Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 141 (transcribed from a series
      of conversations by Paul Twitchell with chelas)

      Sawan Singh came from a Sikh family. He was tall and lean and he
      traveled around meeting with his students.

      In spite of all the clues that show how similar they were, I have yet
      to see anyone make the connection between Sawan Singh and Sudar Singh.
      Sawan Singh was a highly respected master in Sant Mat. They called him
      "The Great Master". Kirpal Singh often referred to him. In fact, he
      was Kirpal's master. It's no wonder that Paul wanted to claim him as
      his master too.

      You can read Ford Johnson's book to find out how Harold Klemp
      distorted and tried to cover up the truth. He couldn't find any trace
      of Sudar Singh, yet Klemp continued the lie about his existence.

      Sudar Singh was just another strawman that Paul Twitchell used to
      perpetuate his lies about the origins of Eckankar. If eckists would
      only take the trouble to read some of these books that Paul
      plagiarized, they would soon realize how they were trapped in a web of
      lies. The links section gives access to the .pdf versions. It's
      missing one key link, Walter Russell's The Secret of Light. Twitchell
      stole many paragraphs from it when he wrote his Tiger's Fang. Here's
      the link. Prometheus can you add it? Thanks.

      http://www.archive.org/details/WalterRussellTheSecretOfLight

      Regards
      Liska
    • etznab@aol.com
      Liska, Thanks for posting that. I haven t read With a Great Master in India. Only The Path of the Masters. It makes sense to me that Paul Twitchell could not
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 18, 2008
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        Liska,

        Thanks for posting that. I haven't read With a Great
        Master in India. Only The Path of the Masters.

        It makes sense to me that Paul Twitchell could not
        help but be familiar with Sawan Singh. Especially the
        many similiarities between passages from the books
        by Julian Johnson and Eckankar.

        I got an impression from Doug Marman's book that
        things between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal Singh were
        not all that bad until about 1966. Myself, I think there
        were things happening in 1963 and 1964 after a copy
        of The Tiger's Fang was sent to Kirpal Singh.

        David Lane made a point that name changes began
        around 1964. This was probably just months after The
        Tiger's Fang manuscript was sent to Kirpal Singh. Or,
        less than a year, possibly.

        Since Sawan Singh & Kirpal Singh were associated
        and of the same "lineage", I find it curious how both of
        these names were replaced and/or removed from some
        of Paul Twitchell's writings.

        The 1966 "fallout" between Paul Twitchell and Kirpal
        Singh appears related to allegations that Paul Twitchell
        was teaching what to some people appeared similar to
        the teachings of Kirpal Singh (and that "lineage").

        Today one can read Julian Johnson's books and see
        similarity between the two sets of teachings. At least
        a lot of the same terms are used, IMO.

        I don't think Paul Twitchell could have done some of
        what he did with Eckankar if Pa
        ul were tied to and sub-
        ordinate to Kirpal Singh at the same time.

        In a way I see Eckankar as an attempt to change a
        number of different teachings. Like the ones that Paul
        studied and read about. It looks this way to me given
        the number of teachings from other paths, or found in
        books about other paths.

        It might not have been the prime intent (I don't know
        for sure), but taking a number of teachings, traditions
        and histories out of context by changing names, dates
        authors, and in some cases the names of the masters
        connected with those teachings, some outer Eckankar
        illustrations appear to me like a painting over a painting.
        History, or a part of the past is being replaced with new
        images.

        I believe it was public knowledge before the last Eck
        Worldwide Seminar that Darwin Gross had died. This
        was an Eck Master (and some would say a Mahanta)
        who served as leader of Eckankar for about ten years
        between the founder Paul Twitchell and the now (2008)
        current leader Harold Klemp.

        I didn't hear the name Darwin Gross mentioned by
        Harold Klemp at any of the major seminar talks or in
        any of the major publications since Darwin died.

        Evidently, once a master doesn't necessarily mean
        always a master. At least, not if the old master might
        appear to make the new master look bad. I guess it
        looks like some things need to be stripped from the
        history, for one reason or another.


        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 2:26 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand Up



        After reading With a Great Master in India by Julian Johnson, I have a

        pretty good idea who the real Sudar Singh is. Julian Johnson describes

        his travels in India with his master Sawan Singh. His description of

        these travels and his master's background and appearance fit the

        description that Paul Twitchell gives Sudar Singh. In fact, they are

        so close that they can only be the same person - Sawan Singh. If you

        read Travels with a Great Master, you will immediately recognize that

        Sudar Singh is Sawan Singh.



        Here's what Paul Twitchell said, "We met with Sudar Singh who was the

        leading advocate at that time of Soul Travel... He was rather a tall,

        lean man. He had a very lean face at the time, and he had started out

        as a Sikh in his life and changed later because he was in his early

        twenties when he came back to ECKANKAR."



        Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 141 (transcribed from a series

        of conversations by Paul Twitchell with chelas)



        Sawan Singh came from a Sikh family. He was tall and lean and he

        traveled around meeting with his students.



        In spite of all the clues that show how similar they wer
        e, I have yet

        to see anyone make the connection between Sawan Singh and Sudar Singh.

        Sawan Singh was a highly respected master in Sant Mat. They called him

        "The Great Master". Kirpal Singh often referred to him. In fact, he

        was Kirpal's master. It's no wonder that Paul wanted to claim him as

        his master too.



        You can read Ford Johnson's book to find out how Harold Klemp

        distorted and tried to cover up the truth. He couldn't find any trace

        of Sudar Singh, yet Klemp continued the lie about his existence.



        Sudar Singh was just another strawman that Paul Twitchell used to

        perpetuate his lies about the origins of Eckankar. If eckists would

        only take the trouble to read some of these books that Paul

        plagiarized, they would soon realize how they were trapped in a web of

        lies. The links section gives access to the .pdf versions. It's

        missing one key link, Walter Russell's The Secret of Light. Twitchell

        stole many paragraphs from it when he wrote his Tiger's Fang. Here's

        the link. Prometheus can you add it? Thanks.



        http://www.archive.org/details/WalterRussellTheSecretOfLight



        Regards

        Liska










        =0
        A
      • etznab@aol.com
        E.S.A., This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed the previous thread text to make this stand alone. Also, so to shorten the length of text in this
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 18, 2008
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          E.S.A.,

          This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed
          the previous thread text to make this stand alone.
          Also, so to shorten the length of text in this post.
          I do think this is partly on topic though.

          *********

          I joined Eckankar in about 1987. When the topic
          of Darwin Gross (a previous Eck Master) came up
          the general consensus seemed to say he was not
          a "mahanta" but only a Living Eck Master.

          So that was a history I carried with me for many
          years. Not less than a few years ago I went back
          to review the Eck seminar transcripts and tapes. I
          discovered that the actual history was the reverse
          of what is generally thought to be the case now.

          Darwin Gross was referred to as "Mahanta, the
          Living Eck Master" at the time - in 1981 - when he
          named Harold Klemp as the "Living Eck Master".
          This appears opposite to the history that says he
          (Darwin Gross) was only an Eck Master and not a
          "mahanta". And it appears opposite the statement
          that Harold Klemp became the "Mahanta, the Living
          Eck Master" from the get go, in 1981.

          Admittedly, I probably need to do more research
          to be absolutely certain about all of the facts. What
          I gave is what I suspect.

          Furthermore, the point of contention between the
          two individuals (Darwin Gross & Harold Klemp) was
          apparently tied to the differences between "mahanta"
          and "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master". Darwin, so it
          seems to me, tried to remain the "Mahanta" even as
          Harold Klemp was the L.E.M. in 1981.

          There is nothing in the teachings and dogma of
          Eckankar that says a master remains a "mahanta"
          after naming a successor. Not that I remember. At
          the same time, I don't know about whatever "deal"
          was struck between Darwin and Harold before the
          latter replaced the former as leader of Eckankar. I
          got the impression from Darwin's "writings" that
          there was some kind of "deal", according to him.

          I think this topic is partly related to the Sawan
          & Sudar Singh topic, on account of how the history
          of Darwin Gross appears to have vanished, or been
          changed.

          Consequently, I was not able to access "ANY"
          of the seminar tapes when Darwin Gross was the
          leader of Eckankar. I only listened to the audio in
          1981 when Harold Klemp was announced as the
          Living Eck Master (not the Mahanta).

          According to my research, it wasn't until about
          1983-1984 before Harold Klemp was announced
          as the "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" at an
          Eck Worldwide seminar.

          Is this what it means when the former master
          is said to refuse to step down? Because it looks
          like Harold Klemp might not have been able to
          claim the title "mahanta" until after Darwin Gross
          was "removed" from Eckankar first!

          It's a guess, but I wonder if this is what it's all
          about. Different individuals battling to calim the
          title of the highest sate of God consciousness?
          "Mahanta".

          Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh had "living"
          masters in their traditions as well. Apparently
          - like Eckankar - there could be only one.

          IMO, when Paul Twitchell became "the master"
          he automatically severed his ties to living as sub-
          ordinate to "ANY" other living masters. Including
          Kirpal Singh & Sawan Singh. To mention them,
          or to indicate that he was a chela in their lineage
          would mean he could not be a "the living master"
          of that lineage. In fact, the "lineage" of Eckankar
          he illustrated does not include either of those two
          individuals as "Living Eck Masters". The closest
          thing to them, perhaps, is "Sudar Singh". IMO.

          I believe this is one of the main issues - identity
          of Sudar Singh - in debates about Eckankar history.
          In the illustrated lineage - on new Eckankar display
          items - Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh both appear
          to be missing! The pictures go from Harold Klemp,
          to Paul Twitchell, to Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

          Your thread "Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand
          Up" is very noteworthy, IMO.

          Etznab

          P.S. If anybody has copies of a transcript or audio
          from an Eck Worldwide Seminar between 1973 &
          1981 (alleged time when Darwin Gross went by the
          title of "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master") I would
          like to know what were the actual words used to
          announce him. In other words, what does history
          say that his title was during this time?
        • drubezarne
          Etznab I got into Eckankar at the beginning of the 1970s. When I went to seminars, Darwin was always announced as the Mahanta, The Living Eck Master. Later
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 19, 2008
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            Etznab
            I got into Eckankar at the beginning of the 1970s. When I went to
            seminars, Darwin was always announced as the Mahanta, The Living Eck
            Master. Later Darwin made an agreement with Harold to share his
            leadership with him, Harold was supposed to be called The Living Eck
            Master while Darwin retained the title, Mahanta.

            Apparently, Harold also craved that title of Mahanta and so deposed
            Darwin to take on all the titles including ownership of Eckankar. He
            also claimed that he had God Realization 10 years before he agreed to
            become the Living Eck Master.

            Does this sound like the highest path to God? When two people like
            Darwing and Harold fight over titles and money, all it shows is their
            depravity. The worst offender is Paul Twitchell who started the whole
            lie of Eckankar.

            Regards
            Liska

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
            >
            > E.S.A.,
            >
            > This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed
            > the previous thread text to make this stand alone.
            > Also, so to shorten the length of text in this post.
            > I do think this is partly on topic though.
            >
            > *********
            >
            > I joined Eckankar in about 1987. When the topic
            > of Darwin Gross (a previous Eck Master) came up
            > the general consensus seemed to say he was not
            > a "mahanta" but only a Living Eck Master.
            >
            > So that was a history I carried with me for many
            > years. Not less than a few years ago I went back
            > to review the Eck seminar transcripts and tapes. I
            > discovered that the actual history was the reverse
            > of what is generally thought to be the case now.
            >
            > Darwin Gross was referred to as "Mahanta, the
            > Living Eck Master" at the time - in 1981 - when he
            > named Harold Klemp as the "Living Eck Master".
            > This appears opposite to the history that says he
            > (Darwin Gross) was only an Eck Master and not a
            > "mahanta". And it appears opposite the statement
            > that Harold Klemp became the "Mahanta, the Living
            > Eck Master" from the get go, in 1981.
            >
            > Admittedly, I probably need to do more research
            > to be absolutely certain about all of the facts. What
            > I gave is what I suspect.
            >
            > Furthermore, the point of contention between the
            > two individuals (Darwin Gross & Harold Klemp) was
            > apparently tied to the differences between "mahanta"
            > and "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master". Darwin, so it
            > seems to me, tried to remain the "Mahanta" even as
            > Harold Klemp was the L.E.M. in 1981.
            >
            > There is nothing in the teachings and dogma of
            > Eckankar that says a master remains a "mahanta"
            > after naming a successor. Not that I remember. At
            > the same time, I don't know about whatever "deal"
            > was struck between Darwin and Harold before the
            > latter replaced the former as leader of Eckankar. I
            > got the impression from Darwin's "writings" that
            > there was some kind of "deal", according to him.
            >
            > I think this topic is partly related to the Sawan
            > & Sudar Singh topic, on account of how the history
            > of Darwin Gross appears to have vanished, or been
            > changed.
            >
            > Consequently, I was not able to access "ANY"
            > of the seminar tapes when Darwin Gross was the
            > leader of Eckankar. I only listened to the audio in
            > 1981 when Harold Klemp was announced as the
            > Living Eck Master (not the Mahanta).
            >
            > According to my research, it wasn't until about
            > 1983-1984 before Harold Klemp was announced
            > as the "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" at an
            > Eck Worldwide seminar.
            >
            > Is this what it means when the former master
            > is said to refuse to step down? Because it looks
            > like Harold Klemp might not have been able to
            > claim the title "mahanta" until after Darwin Gross
            > was "removed" from Eckankar first!
            >
            > It's a guess, but I wonder if this is what it's all
            > about. Different individuals battling to calim the
            > title of the highest sate of God consciousness?
            > "Mahanta".
            >
            > Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh had "living"
            > masters in their traditions as well. Apparently
            > - like Eckankar - there could be only one.
            >
            > IMO, when Paul Twitchell became "the master"
            > he automatically severed his ties to living as sub-
            > ordinate to "ANY" other living masters. Including
            > Kirpal Singh & Sawan Singh. To mention them,
            > or to indicate that he was a chela in their lineage
            > would mean he could not be a "the living master"
            > of that lineage. In fact, the "lineage" of Eckankar
            > he illustrated does not include either of those two
            > individuals as "Living Eck Masters". The closest
            > thing to them, perhaps, is "Sudar Singh". IMO.
            >
            > I believe this is one of the main issues - identity
            > of Sudar Singh - in debates about Eckankar history.
            > In the illustrated lineage - on new Eckankar display
            > items - Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh both appear
            > to be missing! The pictures go from Harold Klemp,
            > to Paul Twitchell, to Rebazar Tarzs, etc.
            >
            > Your thread "Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand
            > Up" is very noteworthy, IMO.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            > P.S. If anybody has copies of a transcript or audio
            > from an Eck Worldwide Seminar between 1973 &
            > 1981 (alleged time when Darwin Gross went by the
            > title of "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master") I would
            > like to know what were the actual words used to
            > announce him. In other words, what does history
            > say that his title was during this time?
            >
          • etznab@aol.com
            Thanks for sharing that history about Darwin. I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp named a successor as the Living Eck Master. Would history repeat
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 19, 2008
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              Thanks for sharing that history about Darwin.

              I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp
              named a successor as the Living Eck Master.
              Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to
              remain the "Mahanta"?

              BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title
              "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first
              applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I
              believe some of the history today likes to say
              that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was
              this term in use that early? I'm not sure.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 8:23 am
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Will the Real Sudar Singh
              Stand Up



              Etznab

              I got into Eckankar at the beginning of the 1970s. When I went to

              seminars, Darwin was always announced as the Mahanta, The Living Eck

              Master. Later Darwin made an agreement with Harold to share his

              leadership with him, Harold was supposed to be called The Living Eck

              Master while Darwin retained the title, Mahanta.



              Apparently, Harold also craved that title of Mahanta and so deposed

              Darwin to take on all the titles including ownership of Eckankar. He

              also claimed that he had God Realization 10 years before he agreed to

              become the Living Eck Master.



              Does this sound like the highest path to God? When two people like

              Darwing and Harold f
              ight over titles and money, all it shows is their

              depravity. The worst offender is Paul Twitchell who started the whole

              lie of Eckankar.



              Regards

              Liska



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:

              >

              > E.S.A.,

              >

              > This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed

              > the previous thread text to make this stand alone.

              > Also, so to shorten the length of text in this post.

              > I do think this is partly on topic though.

              >

              > *********

              >

              > I joined Eckankar in about 1987. When the topic

              > of Darwin Gross (a previous Eck Master) came up

              > the general consensus seemed to say he was not

              > a "mahanta" but only a Living Eck Master.

              >

              > So that was a history I carried with me for many

              > years. Not less than a few years ago I went back

              > to review the Eck seminar transcripts and tapes. I

              > discovered that the actual history was the reverse

              > of what is generally thought to be the case now.

              >

              > Darwin Gross was referred to as "Mahanta, the

              > Living Eck Master" at the time - in 1981 - when he

              > named Harold Klemp as the "Living Eck Master".

              > This appears opposite to the history that says he

              > (Darwin Gross) was only an Eck Master and not a


              > "mahanta". And it appears opposite the statement

              > that Harold Klemp became the "Mahanta, the Living

              > Eck Master" from the get go, in 1981.

              >

              > Admittedly, I probably need to do more research

              > to be absolutely certain about all of the facts. What

              > I gave is what I suspect.

              >

              > Furthermore, the point of contention between the

              > two individuals (Darwin Gross & Harold Klemp) was

              > apparently tied to the differences between "mahanta"

              > and "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master". Darwin, so it

              > seems to me, tried to remain the "Mahanta" even as

              > Harold Klemp was the L.E.M. in 1981.

              >

              > There is nothing in the teachings and dogma of

              > Eckankar that says a master remains a "mahanta"

              > after naming a successor. Not that I remember. At

              > the same time, I don't know about whatever "deal"

              > was struck between Darwin and Harold before the

              > latter replaced the former as leader of Eckankar. I

              > got the impression from Darwin's "writings" that

              > there was some kind of "deal", according to him.

              >

              > I think this topic is partly related to the Sawan

              > & Sudar Singh topic, on account of how the history

              > of Darwin Gross appears to have vanished, or been

              > changed.

              >

              > Consequently, I was not
              able to access "ANY"

              > of the seminar tapes when Darwin Gross was the

              > leader of Eckankar. I only listened to the audio in

              > 1981 when Harold Klemp was announced as the

              > Living Eck Master (not the Mahanta).

              >

              > According to my research, it wasn't until about

              > 1983-1984 before Harold Klemp was announced

              > as the "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" at an

              > Eck Worldwide seminar.

              >

              > Is this what it means when the former master

              > is said to refuse to step down? Because it looks

              > like Harold Klemp might not have been able to

              > claim the title "mahanta" until after Darwin Gross

              > was "removed" from Eckankar first!

              >

              > It's a guess, but I wonder if this is what it's all

              > about. Different individuals battling to calim the

              > title of the highest sate of God consciousness?

              > "Mahanta".

              >

              > Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh had "living"

              > masters in their traditions as well. Apparently

              > - like Eckankar - there could be only one.

              >

              > IMO, when Paul Twitchell became "the master"

              > he automatically severed his ties to living as sub-

              > ordinate to "ANY" other living masters. Including

              > Kirpal Singh & Sawan Singh. To mention them,

              > or to indicate that he was a chela in their lineage0D

              > would mean he could not be a "the living master"

              > of that lineage. In fact, the "lineage" of Eckankar

              > he illustrated does not include either of those two

              > individuals as "Living Eck Masters". The closest

              > thing to them, perhaps, is "Sudar Singh". IMO.

              >

              > I believe this is one of the main issues - identity

              > of Sudar Singh - in debates about Eckankar history.

              > In the illustrated lineage - on new Eckankar display

              > items - Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh both appear

              > to be missing! The pictures go from Harold Klemp,

              > to Paul Twitchell, to Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

              >

              > Your thread "Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand

              > Up" is very noteworthy, IMO.

              >

              > Etznab

              >

              > P.S. If anybody has copies of a transcript or audio

              > from an Eck Worldwide Seminar between 1973 &

              > 1981 (alleged time when Darwin Gross went by the

              > title of "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master") I would

              > like to know what were the actual words used to

              > announce him. In other words, what does history

              > say that his title was during this time?

              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello All, According to PT s monthly Wisdom Notes he first used the Mahanta title in the Jan. 1, 1969 issue. I d have to check other Wisdom Notes to see when
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 19, 2008
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                Hello All,
                According to PT's monthly Wisdom Notes
                he first used the Mahanta title in the Jan.
                1, 1969 issue. I'd have to check other Wisdom
                Notes to see when Twit used both titles
                together, but it was later than Jan. 1, 1969!

                Darwin's big mistake was that he trusted
                Klemp at his word. Also, Darwin should
                have announced to the EK membership
                that he was planning to stay on as the
                Mahanta while Klemp remained as President
                of Eckankar and as LEM.

                I'm certain Klemp won't make that mistake
                when he makes Joan an 11th or 12th and
                Peter the new LEM while Don Ginn takes
                Peter's old job as President of Eckankar.
                Klemp will remain Mahanta for much longer!

                BTW-Actually, Kirpal wasn't (officially)
                chosen to succeed his former Master Sawan
                Singh. This is why Kirpal started his own
                Ruhani Satsang sect and broke from Radhasoami.

                Prometheus


                etznab@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > Thanks for sharing that history about Darwin.
                >
                > I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp
                > named a successor as the Living Eck Master.
                > Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to
                > remain the "Mahanta"?
                >
                > BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title
                > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first
                > applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I
                > believe some of the history today likes to say
                > that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was
                > this term in use that early? I'm not sure.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                Re: Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand Up
                >
                >
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > I got into Eckankar at the beginning of the 1970s. When I went to
                >
                > seminars, Darwin was always announced as the Mahanta, The Living Eck
                >
                > Master. Later Darwin made an agreement with Harold to share his
                >
                > leadership with him, Harold was supposed to be called The Living Eck
                >
                > Master while Darwin retained the title, Mahanta.
                >
                >
                >
                > Apparently, Harold also craved that title of Mahanta and so deposed
                >
                > Darwin to take on all the titles including ownership of Eckankar. He
                >
                > also claimed that he had God Realization 10 years before he agreed to
                >
                > become the Living Eck Master.
                >
                >
                >
                > Does this sound like the highest path to God? When two people like
                >
                > Darwing and Harold f
                > ight over titles and money, all it shows is their
                >
                > depravity. The worst offender is Paul Twitchell who started the whole
                >
                > lie of Eckankar.
                >
                >
                >
                > Regards
                >
                > Liska
                >
                >
                > etznab@ wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > E.S.A.,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > This is a little bit off topic, perhaps, so I removed
                >
                > > the previous thread text to make this stand alone.
                >
                > > Also, so to shorten the length of text in this post.
                >
                > > I do think this is partly on topic though.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > *********
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I joined Eckankar in about 1987. When the topic
                >
                > > of Darwin Gross (a previous Eck Master) came up
                >
                > > the general consensus seemed to say he was not
                >
                > > a "mahanta" but only a Living Eck Master.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > So that was a history I carried with me for many
                >
                > > years. Not less than a few years ago I went back
                >
                > > to review the Eck seminar transcripts and tapes. I
                >
                > > discovered that the actual history was the reverse
                >
                > > of what is generally thought to be the case now.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Darwin Gross was referred to as "Mahanta, the
                >
                > > Living Eck Master" at the time - in 1981 - when he
                >
                > > named Harold Klemp as the "Living Eck Master".
                >
                > > This appears opposite to the history that says he
                >
                > > (Darwin Gross) was only an Eck Master and not a
                >
                >
                > > "mahanta". And it appears opposite the statement
                >
                > > that Harold Klemp became the "Mahanta, the Living
                >
                > > Eck Master" from the get go, in 1981.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Admittedly, I probably need to do more research
                >
                > > to be absolutely certain about all of the facts. What
                >
                > > I gave is what I suspect.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Furthermore, the point of contention between the
                >
                > > two individuals (Darwin Gross & Harold Klemp) was
                >
                > > apparently tied to the differences between "mahanta"
                >
                > > and "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master". Darwin, so it
                >
                > > seems to me, tried to remain the "Mahanta" even as
                >
                > > Harold Klemp was the L.E.M. in 1981.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > There is nothing in the teachings and dogma of
                >
                > > Eckankar that says a master remains a "mahanta"
                >
                > > after naming a successor. Not that I remember. At
                >
                > > the same time, I don't know about whatever "deal"
                >
                > > was struck between Darwin and Harold before the
                >
                > > latter replaced the former as leader of Eckankar. I
                >
                > > got the impression from Darwin's "writings" that
                >
                > > there was some kind of "deal", according to him.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I think this topic is partly related to the Sawan
                >
                > > & Sudar Singh topic, on account of how the history
                >
                > > of Darwin Gross appears to have vanished, or been
                >
                > > changed.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Consequently, I was not
                > able to access "ANY"
                >
                > > of the seminar tapes when Darwin Gross was the
                >
                > > leader of Eckankar. I only listened to the audio in
                >
                > > 1981 when Harold Klemp was announced as the
                >
                > > Living Eck Master (not the Mahanta).
                >
                > >
                >
                > > According to my research, it wasn't until about
                >
                > > 1983-1984 before Harold Klemp was announced
                >
                > > as the "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" at an
                >
                > > Eck Worldwide seminar.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Is this what it means when the former master
                >
                > > is said to refuse to step down? Because it looks
                >
                > > like Harold Klemp might not have been able to
                >
                > > claim the title "mahanta" until after Darwin Gross
                >
                > > was "removed" from Eckankar first!
                >
                > >
                >
                > > It's a guess, but I wonder if this is what it's all
                >
                > > about. Different individuals battling to calim the
                >
                > > title of the highest sate of God consciousness?
                >
                > > "Mahanta".
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh had "living"
                >
                > > masters in their traditions as well. Apparently
                >
                > > - like Eckankar - there could be only one.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > IMO, when Paul Twitchell became "the master"
                >
                > > he automatically severed his ties to living as sub-
                >
                > > ordinate to "ANY" other living masters. Including
                >
                > > Kirpal Singh & Sawan Singh. To mention them,
                >
                > > or to indicate that he was a chela in their lineage0D
                >
                > > would mean he could not be a "the living master"
                >
                > > of that lineage. In fact, the "lineage" of Eckankar
                >
                > > he illustrated does not include either of those two
                >
                > > individuals as "Living Eck Masters". The closest
                >
                > > thing to them, perhaps, is "Sudar Singh". IMO.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I believe this is one of the main issues - identity
                >
                > > of Sudar Singh - in debates about Eckankar history.
                >
                > > In the illustrated lineage - on new Eckankar display
                >
                > > items - Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh both appear
                >
                > > to be missing! The pictures go from Harold Klemp,
                >
                > > to Paul Twitchell, to Rebazar Tarzs, etc.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Your thread "Will the Real Sudar Singh Stand
                >
                > > Up" is very noteworthy, IMO.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Etznab
                >
                > >
                >
                > > P.S. If anybody has copies of a transcript or audio
                >
                > > from an Eck Worldwide Seminar between 1973 &
                >
                > > 1981 (alleged time when Darwin Gross went by the
                >
                > > title of "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master") I would
                >
                > > like to know what were the actual words used to
                >
                > > announce him. In other words, what does history
                >
                > > say that his title was during this time?
                >
                > >
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab and All, In the MAY 1, 1969 Paul Twitchell Presents: The Wisdom Notes Twitchell used Mahanta and living ECK Master for the FIRST time in the
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 23, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Etznab and All,
                  In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                  The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "Mahanta"
                  and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in
                  the same sentence, but NOT together!

                  Here's the quote:
                  PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK
                  Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta
                  to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as
                  the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]

                  In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit
                  doesn't mention the "Mahanta" at all! Instead,
                  PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;
                  the living ECK Master."

                  The next time Twitchell uses "Mahanta" in
                  the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"
                  is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM
                  NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master
                  becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]

                  Twitchell doesn't menton the "Mahanta" again
                  until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,
                  but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)
                  with the "living ECK Master."

                  In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom
                  Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term
                  "Mahanta," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"
                  for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing
                  the "l" in "living ECK Master."

                  FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom
                  Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only
                  one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "Mahanta"
                  and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!
                  Here's the quote [pg.53]:

                  "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power
                  is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the
                  living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all
                  caps!


                  Twitchell does Not mention the "Mahanta" in
                  the March 1, 1970 issue, but here's the quote
                  for APRIL 1, 1970: "The fifth initiation and beyond
                  are given only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK
                  Master." This is the FIRST time PT uses a comma
                  instead of a hyphen to separate the two titles, and
                  "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while "living" is
                  still in lower case.

                  In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
                  Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the
                  "living ECK Master" but Not to both!

                  In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"
                  Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"
                  WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living
                  ECK Master" is still lower case!

                  FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses
                  "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")
                  in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom
                  Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the
                  term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!

                  PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971
                  Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower
                  case in "living ECK Master."

                  Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971
                  "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE
                  "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that
                  I counted 3 or 4 times that Twitchell used these
                  two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.
                  1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."

                  Prometheus
                  BTW- Klemp has already explained that
                  a 12th or 13th Initiate is a "Mahanta in
                  training" and is Not a FULL(y) cooked Mahanta!

                  Therefore, HK will remain the (FULL) Mahanta
                  for years to come... maybe for 10 more years!


                  etznab wrote:
                  [snip]
                  >
                  I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp
                  named a successor as the Living Eck Master.
                  Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to
                  remain the "Mahanta"?
                  >
                  BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title
                  "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first
                  applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I
                  believe some of the history today likes to say
                  that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was
                  this term in use that early? I'm not sure.
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Liska and All, It seems that PT s Monthly The Wisdom Notes were written a month in advance since the last article was dated OCT. 1, 1971 and PT died
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 23, 2008
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                    Hello Liska and All,
                    It seems that PT's Monthly "The Wisdom
                    Notes" were written a month in advance
                    since the last article was dated OCT. 1,
                    1971 and PT died SEPT. 17, 1971. Thus,
                    the JAN. 1, 1969 issue was probably
                    written around DEC. 1, 1968. The JAN. 1,
                    1969 (monthly) "The Wisdom Notes" is
                    where Twitchell first used the term
                    "MAHANTA" in print.

                    I recently looked at "The Flute of God"
                    and saw that the copyright is 1969 and
                    that the First Printing is 1970. My copy
                    is from the 6th printing (1979).

                    It's interesting that Twitchell mentioned
                    the "Mahanta consciousness" only once
                    and on page 39. Nowhere else in this book
                    does Twit mention the "Mahanta." And,
                    "Mahanta" is Not in ALL UPPER CASE, and
                    it is Not used with the term "Living ECK Master."

                    Actually, Twitchell mentions "Living ECK
                    Master" on pages 12 and 133. PT then
                    mentions "living ECK Master" on page 19.
                    Twitchell Does Not mention the LEM again,
                    except, he does mention the "Living ECK"
                    on page 169.

                    *Therefore, "Mahanta" is mentioned once
                    and Not WITH the "LEM" title, and "LEM"
                    is only mention THREE times. Twitchell
                    was more focused upon plagiarizing and
                    changing names...

                    In Marman's Chapter 2 on littleknownpubs
                    he mentions that PT changed "Meher Baba"
                    to "Fubbi Quantz" (pg. 7). And, of course,
                    "Kirpal Singh" was changed to "Sudar Singh."
                    Marman, also, mentions in Ch. 2 of Dialogues
                    in the Age of Criticism that Twitchell changed
                    "Swami Premanada" to "Sudar Singh."

                    Oh well! As Klemp has said, "Change is Change!"

                    Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                    EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                    thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:

                    "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                    January 1968--October 1971"

                    ***

                    On Another Note (from The Flute of God)
                    Twitchell gives two HEALING Techniques:

                    "It has long been proven that music and colors
                    go together. Color can further improve the
                    effects of music upon a troubled mind. Disease,
                    as you know, is a disharmony resulting from
                    the influence of an imaged picture. Music could
                    return the balance if necessary, but one would
                    have to reach the basic cause in order to erase
                    the image." [The Flute of God, pg. 119]

                    Hmmmm. Maybe staring at Klemp's image isn't
                    what ECKists really need! Maybe this is why Klemp
                    is so sickly! HK stares at his own negative,
                    imbalanced, and disharmonious image in the
                    mirror each day!

                    Here's another HEALING technique that the LEM
                    can use for all people:

                    "The Living ECK Master often cures disease by
                    purifying the atmosphere both within and without
                    the person. He does this by the power of the
                    inward word and the ECK, if we take the time
                    to learn that we are agents of the Divine ECK."
                    [The Flute of God, pg. 133]

                    So, why did that young EK 7th Initiate, on the
                    ESC Eckankar Board, die of cancer if this was
                    true of the LEM's "power?" See! It's all just
                    magical thinking and meaningless words!

                    Prometheus

                    Liska wrote:
                    ... Also, pages 163 - 164 of Ford's book
                    Confessions of a God Seeker says that
                    the word Mahanta appeared in The Flute
                    of God...


                    Illuminated Way Letters, and Letters to Gail.
                    He wrote these between 1960 and 1966.
                    The official date for the establishment of
                    Eckankar was 1965. It was then Paul declared
                    it the world's greatest spiritual path from which
                    all religions came. That's when you find the
                    terms, Rod of Eck Power, Mahanta, Sugmad,
                    Vairagi Eck Masters, and all the rest of the
                    garbage that is still promoted by the ego
                    driven Klemp today.
                    >
                    By the way, many of these copyrighted terms
                    were stolen from other religions/spiritual
                    teachings. You can find the name eckankar,
                    vairagi masters, sugmad, and others in Johnson's
                    Path of the Masters. The original spelling of
                    sugmad was surmadi (Sufi term), eckankar
                    comes from the Sikh term Ekonkar which means
                    One God, Vairagi Eck Masters comes from
                    Vairagis, the adepts of India, Mahanta is
                    a Hindi and Pali word that means head of
                    a monastic establishment and "big", Rod
                    of Eck Power comes from Theosophy's Rod
                    of Power concept or from references
                    found in Egyptian and Christian writings.
                    >

                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                    > The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "Mahanta"
                    > and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in
                    > the same sentence, but NOT together!
                    >
                    > Here's the quote:
                    > PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK
                    > Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta
                    > to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as
                    > the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]
                    >
                    > In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit
                    > doesn't mention the "Mahanta" at all! Instead,
                    > PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;
                    > the living ECK Master."
                    >
                    > The next time Twitchell uses "Mahanta" in
                    > the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"
                    > is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM
                    > NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master
                    > becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]
                    >
                    > Twitchell doesn't menton the "Mahanta" again
                    > until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,
                    > but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)
                    > with the "living ECK Master."
                    >
                    > In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom
                    > Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term
                    > "Mahanta," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"
                    > for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing
                    > the "l" in "living ECK Master."
                    >
                    > FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom
                    > Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only
                    > one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "Mahanta"
                    > and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!
                    > Here's the quote [pg.53]:
                    >
                    > "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power
                    > is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the
                    > living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all
                    > caps!
                    >
                    >
                    > Twitchell does Not mention the "Mahanta" in
                    > the March 1, 1970 issue, but here's the quote
                    > for APRIL 1, 1970: "The fifth initiation and beyond
                    > are given only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK
                    > Master." This is the FIRST time PT uses a comma
                    > instead of a hyphen to separate the two titles, and
                    > "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while "living" is
                    > still in lower case.
                    >
                    > In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
                    > Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the
                    > "living ECK Master" but Not to both!
                    >
                    > In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"
                    > Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"
                    > WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living
                    > ECK Master" is still lower case!
                    >
                    > FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses
                    > "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")
                    > in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom
                    > Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the
                    > term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!
                    >
                    > PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971
                    > Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower
                    > case in "living ECK Master."
                    >
                    > Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971
                    > "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE
                    > "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that
                    > I counted 3 or 4 times that Twitchell used these
                    > two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.
                    > 1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    > BTW- Klemp has already explained that
                    > a 12th or 13th Initiate is a "Mahanta in
                    > training" and is Not a FULL(y) cooked Mahanta!
                    >
                    > Therefore, HK will remain the (FULL) Mahanta
                    > for years to come... maybe for 10 more years!
                    >
                    >
                    > etznab wrote:
                    > [snip]
                    > >
                    > I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp
                    > named a successor as the Living Eck Master.
                    > Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to
                    > remain the "Mahanta"?
                    > >
                    > BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title
                    > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first
                    > applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I
                    > believe some of the history today likes to say
                    > that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was
                    > this term in use that early? I'm not sure.
                    >
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008 EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch thin blue book with PT s white profile titled: Paul Twitchell Presents
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 24, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                      EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                      thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:

                      "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                      January 1968--October 1971"

                      *********

                      I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We
                      know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to
                      Gail have in some places been edited and revised.
                      Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may
                      have been added retroactively, IMO.

                      What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are
                      in their exact original form?

                      I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the
                      new modern terms were added that they could
                      only be added in some places. In other places the
                      older tems remain because the newer ones would
                      have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                      original meanings too dramatically.

                      I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book
                      put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,
                      there was a time when I believed the Eck books I
                      had access to were mostly the way they appeared
                      to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.

                      If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and
                      change them in some places, IMO that would
                      make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-
                      line and history.

                      Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                      not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                      them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                      if anything was revised,
                      would there be a way to
                      tell?

                      BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form
                      of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.
                      Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in
                      book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.
                      And just one year before appointment of a new
                      LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:34 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] When Twitchell First Created the
                      "Mahanta"



                      Hello Liska and All,

                      It seems that PT's Monthly "The Wisdom

                      Notes" were written a month in advance

                      since the last article was dated OCT. 1,

                      1971 and PT died SEPT. 17, 1971. Thus,

                      the JAN. 1, 1969 issue was probably

                      written around DEC. 1, 1968. The JAN. 1,

                      1969 (monthly) "The Wisdom Notes" is

                      where Twitchell first used the term

                      "MAHANTA" in print.



                      I recently looked at "The Flute of God"

                      and saw that the copyright is 1969 and

                      that the First Printing is 1970. My copy

                      is from the 6th printing (1979).



                      It's interesting that Twitchell mentioned

                      the "Mahanta consciousness" only once

                      and on page 39. Nowhere else in this book

                      does Twit mention the "Mahanta." And,

                      "Mahanta" is Not in ALL UPPER CASE, and

                      it is Not used with the term "Living ECK Master."


                      =0
                      A
                      Actually, Twitchell mentions "Living ECK

                      Master" on pages 12 and 133. PT then

                      mentions "living ECK Master" on page 19.

                      Twitchell Does Not mention the LEM again,

                      except, he does mention the "Living ECK"

                      on page 169.



                      *Therefore, "Mahanta" is mentioned once

                      and Not WITH the "LEM" title, and "LEM"

                      is only mention THREE times. Twitchell

                      was more focused upon plagiarizing and

                      changing names...



                      In Marman's Chapter 2 on littleknownpubs

                      he mentions that PT changed "Meher Baba"

                      to "Fubbi Quantz" (pg. 7). And, of course,

                      "Kirpal Singh" was changed to "Sudar Singh."

                      Marman, also, mentions in Ch. 2 of Dialogues

                      in the Age of Criticism that Twitchell changed

                      "Swami Premanada" to "Sudar Singh."



                      Oh well! As Klemp has said, "Change is Change!"



                      Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008

                      EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch

                      thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:



                      "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes

                      January 1968--October 1971"



                      ***



                      On Another Note (from The Flute of God)

                      Twitchell gives two HEALING Techniques:



                      "It has long been proven that music and colors

                      go together. Color can further improve the

                      effects of music upon a troubled mind. Disease,

                      as you know, is a disharmony resulting from

                      the influence of an imaged picture
                      . Music could

                      return the balance if necessary, but one would

                      have to reach the basic cause in order to erase

                      the image." [The Flute of God, pg. 119]



                      Hmmmm. Maybe staring at Klemp's image isn't

                      what ECKists really need! Maybe this is why Klemp

                      is so sickly! HK stares at his own negative,

                      imbalanced, and disharmonious image in the

                      mirror each day!



                      Here's another HEALING technique that the LEM

                      can use for all people:



                      "The Living ECK Master often cures disease by

                      purifying the atmosphere both within and without

                      the person. He does this by the power of the

                      inward word and the ECK, if we take the time

                      to learn that we are agents of the Divine ECK."

                      [The Flute of God, pg. 133]



                      So, why did that young EK 7th Initiate, on the

                      ESC Eckankar Board, die of cancer if this was

                      true of the LEM's "power?" See! It's all just

                      magical thinking and meaningless words!



                      Prometheus



                      Liska wrote:

                      ... Also, pages 163 - 164 of Ford's book

                      Confessions of a God Seeker says that

                      the word Mahanta appeared in The Flute

                      of God...



                      Illuminated Way Letters, and Letters to Gail.

                      He wrote these between 1960 and 1966.

                      The official date for the establishment of

                      Eckankar was 1965. It was then Paul declared

                      it the world's greatest spiritual path from which
                      0D
                      all religions came. That's when you find the

                      terms, Rod of Eck Power, Mahanta, Sugmad,

                      Vairagi Eck Masters, and all the rest of the

                      garbage that is still promoted by the ego

                      driven Klemp today.

                      >

                      By the way, many of these copyrighted terms

                      were stolen from other religions/spiritual

                      teachings. You can find the name eckankar,

                      vairagi masters, sugmad, and others in Johnson's

                      Path of the Masters. The original spelling of

                      sugmad was surmadi (Sufi term), eckankar

                      comes from the Sikh term Ekonkar which means

                      One God, Vairagi Eck Masters comes from

                      Vairagis, the adepts of India, Mahanta is

                      a Hindi and Pali word that means head of

                      a monastic establishment and "big", Rod

                      of Eck Power comes from Theosophy's Rod

                      of Power concept or from references

                      found in Egyptian and Christian writings.

                      >



                      prometheus wrote:

                      >

                      > Hello Etznab and All,

                      > In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:

                      > The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "Mahanta"

                      > and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in

                      > the same sentence, but NOT together!

                      >

                      > Here's the quote:

                      > PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK

                      > Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta

                      > to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as

                      > the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]

                      >

                      >20In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit

                      > doesn't mention the "Mahanta" at all! Instead,

                      > PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;

                      > the living ECK Master."

                      >

                      > The next time Twitchell uses "Mahanta" in

                      > the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"

                      > is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM

                      > NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master

                      > becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]

                      >

                      > Twitchell doesn't menton the "Mahanta" again

                      > until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,

                      > but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)

                      > with the "living ECK Master."

                      >

                      > In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom

                      > Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term

                      > "Mahanta," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"

                      > for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing

                      > the "l" in "living ECK Master."

                      >

                      > FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom

                      > Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only

                      > one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "Mahanta"

                      > and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!

                      > Here's the quote [pg.53]:

                      >

                      > "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power

                      > is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the

                      > living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all

                      > caps!

                      >

                      >



                      > Twitchell does Not mention the "Mahanta" in

                      > the March 1, 1970 issue, but here's the quote

                      > for APRIL 1, 1970: "The fifth initiation and beyond

                      > are given only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK

                      > Master." This is the FIRST time PT uses a comma

                      > instead of a hyphen to separate the two titles, and

                      > "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while "living" is

                      > still in lower case.

                      >

                      > In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"

                      > Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the

                      > "living ECK Master" but Not to both!

                      >

                      > In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"

                      > Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"

                      > WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living

                      > ECK Master" is still lower case!

                      >

                      > FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses

                      > "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")

                      > in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom

                      > Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the

                      > term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!

                      >

                      > PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971

                      > Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower

                      > case in "living ECK Master."

                      >

                      > Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971

                      > "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE

                      > "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that

                      > I counted 3 or
                      4 times that Twitchell used these

                      > two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.

                      > 1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."

                      >

                      > Prometheus

                      > BTW- Klemp has already explained that

                      > a 12th or 13th Initiate is a "Mahanta in

                      > training" and is Not a FULL(y) cooked Mahanta!

                      >

                      > Therefore, HK will remain the (FULL) Mahanta

                      > for years to come... maybe for 10 more years!

                      >

                      >

                      > etznab wrote:

                      > [snip]

                      > >

                      > I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp

                      > named a successor as the Living Eck Master.

                      > Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to

                      > remain the "Mahanta"?

                      > >

                      > BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title

                      > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first

                      > applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I

                      > believe some of the history today likes to say

                      > that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was

                      > this term in use that early? I'm not sure.

                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote them. I m just contemplating the possibility that if anything
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 24, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        "Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                        not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                        them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                        if anything was revised, would there be a way to
                        tell?"

                        *********

                        The original Wisdom Notes from the time
                        when they first came out could be compared
                        side by side with the 1980 book. However, I
                        can't do this because all I have is the 1980
                        book version.

                        Prometheus, what version did your quotes
                        come from? What was the source copyright?

                        The last paragraph of the 1980 book intro -
                        signed by Darwin Gross - appears to indicate
                        the Wisdom Notes in that book were "just as
                        he [Paul Twitchell] brought them out from
                        January 1968 to October 1971." IMO.

                        Etznab


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: etznab@...
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:38 pm
                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] When Twitchell First Created
                        the "Mahanta"





                        Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008

                        EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch

                        thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:



                        "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes

                        January 1968--October 1971"



                        *********



                        I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We

                        know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to

                        Gail have in some places been edited and revised.

                        Some of the "Eck Terms" in these ex
                        amples may

                        have been added retroactively, IMO.



                        What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are

                        in their exact original form?



                        I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the

                        new modern terms were added that they could

                        only be added in some places. In other places the

                        older tems remain because the newer ones would

                        have appeared too awkward, or else changed the

                        original meanings too dramatically.



                        I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book

                        put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,

                        there was a time when I believed the Eck books I

                        had access to were mostly the way they appeared

                        to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.



                        If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and

                        change them in some places, IMO that would

                        make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-

                        line and history.



                        Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are

                        not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote

                        them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that

                        if anything was revised,

                        would there be a way to

                        tell?



                        BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form

                        of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.

                        Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in

                        book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.

                        And just one year before appointment of a new

                        LEM ("originally" set=2
                        0to take over in 1980)!



                        Etznab



                        -----Original Message-----

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                        Sent: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:34 pm

                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] When Twitchell First Created the

                        "Mahanta"



                        Hello Liska and All,



                        It seems that PT's Monthly "The Wisdom



                        Notes" were written a month in advance



                        since the last article was dated OCT. 1,



                        1971 and PT died SEPT. 17, 1971. Thus,



                        the JAN. 1, 1969 issue was probably



                        written around DEC. 1, 1968. The JAN. 1,



                        1969 (monthly) "The Wisdom Notes" is



                        where Twitchell first used the term



                        "MAHANTA" in print.



                        I recently looked at "The Flute of God"



                        and saw that the copyright is 1969 and



                        that the First Printing is 1970. My copy



                        is from the 6th printing (1979).



                        It's interesting that Twitchell mentioned



                        the "Mahanta consciousness" only once



                        and on page 39. Nowhere else in this book



                        does Twit mention the "Mahanta." And,



                        "Mahanta" is Not in ALL UPPER CASE, and



                        it is Not used with the term "Living ECK Master."



                        =0

                        A

                        Actually, Twitchell mentions "Living ECK



                        Master" on pages 12 and 133. PT then

                        =0
                        D

                        mentions "living ECK Master" on page 19.



                        Twitchell Does Not mention the LEM again,



                        except, he does mention the "Living ECK"



                        on page 169.



                        *Therefore, "Mahanta" is mentioned once



                        and Not WITH the "LEM" title, and "LEM"



                        is only mention THREE times. Twitchell



                        was more focused upon plagiarizing and



                        changing names...



                        In Marman's Chapter 2 on littleknownpubs



                        he mentions that PT changed "Meher Baba"



                        to "Fubbi Quantz" (pg. 7). And, of course,



                        "Kirpal Singh" was changed to "Sudar Singh."



                        Marman, also, mentions in Ch. 2 of Dialogues



                        in the Age of Criticism that Twitchell changed



                        "Swami Premanada" to "Sudar Singh."



                        Oh well! As Klemp has said, "Change is Change!"



                        Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008



                        EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch



                        thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:



                        "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes



                        January 1968--October 1971"



                        ***



                        On Another Note (from The Flute of God)



                        Twitchell gives two HEALING Techniques:



                        "It has long been proven that music and colors



                        go together. Color can further improve the



                        effects of music upon a troubled mind. Disease,


                        0A
                        as you know, is a disharmony resulting from



                        the influence of an imaged picture

                        . Music could



                        return the balance if necessary, but one would



                        have to reach the basic cause in order to erase



                        the image." [The Flute of God, pg. 119]



                        Hmmmm. Maybe staring at Klemp's image isn't



                        what ECKists really need! Maybe this is why Klemp



                        is so sickly! HK stares at his own negative,



                        imbalanced, and disharmonious image in the



                        mirror each day!



                        Here's another HEALING technique that the LEM



                        can use for all people:



                        "The Living ECK Master often cures disease by



                        purifying the atmosphere both within and without



                        the person. He does this by the power of the



                        inward word and the ECK, if we take the time



                        to learn that we are agents of the Divine ECK."



                        [The Flute of God, pg. 133]



                        So, why did that young EK 7th Initiate, on the



                        ESC Eckankar Board, die of cancer if this was



                        true of the LEM's "power?" See! It's all just



                        magical thinking and meaningless words!



                        Prometheus



                        Liska wrote:



                        ... Also, pages 163 - 164 of Ford's book



                        Confessions of a God Seeker says that



                        the word Mahanta appeared in The Flute

                        0A

                        of God...



                        Illuminated Way Letters, and Letters to Gail.



                        He wrote these between 1960 and 1966.



                        The official date for the establishment of



                        Eckankar was 1965. It was then Paul declared



                        it the world's greatest spiritual path from which

                        0D

                        all religions came. That's when you find the



                        terms, Rod of Eck Power, Mahanta, Sugmad,



                        Vairagi Eck Masters, and all the rest of the



                        garbage that is still promoted by the ego



                        driven Klemp today.



                        >



                        By the way, many of these copyrighted terms



                        were stolen from other religions/spiritual



                        teachings. You can find the name eckankar,



                        vairagi masters, sugmad, and others in Johnson's



                        Path of the Masters. The original spelling of



                        sugmad was surmadi (Sufi term), eckankar



                        comes from the Sikh term Ekonkar which means



                        One God, Vairagi Eck Masters comes from



                        Vairagis, the adepts of India, Mahanta is



                        a Hindi and Pali word that means head of



                        a monastic establishment and "big", Rod



                        of Eck Power comes from Theosophy's Rod



                        of Power concept or from references



                        found in Egyptian and Christian writings.



                        >



                        prometheus wrote:



                        >



                        > Hello Etzn
                        ab and All,



                        > In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:



                        > The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "Mahanta"



                        > and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in



                        > the same sentence, but NOT together!



                        >



                        > Here's the quote:



                        > PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK



                        > Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta



                        > to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as



                        > the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]



                        >



                        >20In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit



                        > doesn't mention the "Mahanta" at all! Instead,



                        > PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;



                        > the living ECK Master."



                        >



                        > The next time Twitchell uses "Mahanta" in



                        > the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"



                        > is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM



                        > NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master



                        > becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]



                        >



                        > Twitchell doesn't menton the "Mahanta" again



                        > until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,



                        > but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)



                        > with the "living ECK Master."



                        >



                        > In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wi
                        sdom



                        > Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term



                        > "Mahanta," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"



                        > for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing



                        > the "l" in "living ECK Master."



                        >



                        > FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom



                        > Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only



                        > one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "Mahanta"



                        > and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!



                        > Here's the quote [pg.53]:



                        >



                        > "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power



                        > is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the



                        > living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all



                        > caps!



                        >



                        >



                        > Twitchell does Not mention the "Mahanta" in



                        > the March 1, 1970 issue, but here's the quote



                        > for APRIL 1, 1970: "The fifth initiation and beyond



                        > are given only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK



                        > Master." This is the FIRST time PT uses a comma



                        > instead of a hyphen to separate the two titles, and



                        > "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while "living" is



                        > still in lower case.



                        >



                        > In the MAY 1, 1970 Mo
                        nthly "The Wisdom Notes"



                        > Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the



                        > "living ECK Master" but Not to both!



                        >



                        > In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"



                        > Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"



                        > WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living



                        > ECK Master" is still lower case!



                        >



                        > FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses



                        > "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")



                        > in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom



                        > Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the



                        > term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!



                        >



                        > PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971



                        > Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower



                        > case in "living ECK Master."



                        >



                        > Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971



                        > "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE



                        > "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that



                        > I counted 3 or

                        4 times that Twitchell used these



                        > two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.



                        > 1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."



                        >



                        > Prometheus



                        > BTW- Klemp has already explained that



                        >20a 12th or 13th Initiate is a "Mahanta in



                        > training" and is Not a FULL(y) cooked Mahanta!



                        >



                        > Therefore, HK will remain the (FULL) Mahanta



                        > for years to come... maybe for 10 more years!



                        >



                        >



                        > etznab wrote:



                        > [snip]



                        > >



                        > I wonder what would happen if Harold Klemp



                        > named a successor as the Living Eck Master.



                        > Would history repeat itself? and Harold try to



                        > remain the "Mahanta"?



                        > >



                        > BTW, on this topic, I wonder when the title



                        > "Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" was first



                        > applied to Paul Twitchell? Like with Harold, I



                        > believe some of the history today likes to say



                        > that he became the "Mahanta" in 1965. Was



                        > this term in use that early? I'm not sure.



                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab and All, It s pretty obvious to me that these Wisdom Notes of Twitchell s have Not been edited. Darwin didn t allow people to edit the Holy words
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          It's pretty obvious to me that these
                          Wisdom Notes of Twitchell's have
                          Not been edited. Darwin didn't
                          allow people to edit the Holy words
                          of EK coming from Paul... DG was
                          a purist. This can be seen in the
                          other works of Twitchell's coming
                          from Darwin's era. It was a Hands
                          Off attitude when it came to changing
                          what Paul had said, even when there
                          were contradictions.

                          However, Klemp can't deal with the
                          contradictions as easily and this is
                          why he has discontinued the printing
                          of many of Twitchell's books. Older
                          ECKists could compare the original
                          version to a newer edited one and
                          this would be too embarrassing for
                          Klemp and too difficult to explain
                          away as an "update."

                          Also, if someone was going to edit
                          and replace the term "Master" with
                          "Mahanta" they would have done so
                          in the First JAN. 1, 1968 Monthly
                          Wisdom Note and Not one year later!

                          Therefore, even though the copyright
                          is 1980, I'm positive that these Wisdom
                          Notes are in their original form and
                          haven't been edited.

                          Plus, this is the only printing of these
                          combined Wisdom Notes! Why was it
                          printed nine years after Paul's death?
                          It was probably done as a tribute to
                          Paul.

                          Prometheus


                          etznab@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                          > EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                          > thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:
                          >
                          > "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                          > January 1968--October 1971"
                          >
                          > *********
                          >
                          > I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We
                          > know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to
                          > Gail have in some places been edited and revised.
                          > Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may
                          > have been added retroactively, IMO.
                          >
                          > What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are
                          > in their exact original form?
                          >
                          > I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the
                          > new modern terms were added that they could
                          > only be added in some places. In other places the
                          > older tems remain because the newer ones would
                          > have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                          > original meanings too dramatically.
                          >
                          > I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book
                          > put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,
                          > there was a time when I believed the Eck books I
                          > had access to were mostly the way they appeared
                          > to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.
                          >
                          > If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and
                          > change them in some places, IMO that would
                          > make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-
                          > line and history.
                          >
                          > Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                          > not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                          > them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                          > if anything was revised,
                          > would there be a way to
                          > tell?
                          >
                          > BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form
                          > of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.
                          > Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in
                          > book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.
                          > And just one year before appointment of a new
                          > LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!
                          >
                          > Etznab
                        • Elizabeth
                          Etznab keep checking ebay for eckankar sales! Lot s of ex members selling off their items, some currently are really old, and pre eckankar but the asking price
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Etznab keep checking ebay for eckankar sales! Lot's of ex members selling off their items, some currently are really old, and pre eckankar but the asking price is pretty high!
                             
                            Liz
                             
                              > The original Wisdom Notes from the time
                            when they first came out could be compared
                            side by side with the 1980 book. However, I
                            can't do this because all I have is the 1980
                            book version.
                             
                               Prometheus, what version did your quotes
                            come from? What was the source copyright?
                             
                               The last paragraph of the 1980 book intro -
                            signed by Darwin Gross - appears to indicate
                            the Wisdom Notes in that book were "just as
                            he [Paul Twitchell] brought them out from
                            January 1968 to October 1971." IMO.
                             
                            Etznab
                             
                             
                             
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Prometheus, I think you re right about Paul Twitchell s Wisdom Notes not being changed by Darwin Gross. My point was that I didn t know for sure whether
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Prometheus,

                              I think you're right about Paul Twitchell's Wisdom
                              Notes not being changed by Darwin Gross.

                              My point was that I didn't know for sure whether
                              anything was different.

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 2:25 am
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: When Twitchell First Created
                              the "Mahanta"



                              Hello Etznab and All,

                              It's pretty obvious to me that these

                              Wisdom Notes of Twitchell's have

                              Not been edited. Darwin didn't

                              allow people to edit the Holy words

                              of EK coming from Paul... DG was

                              a purist. This can be seen in the

                              other works of Twitchell's coming

                              from Darwin's era. It was a Hands

                              Off attitude when it came to changing

                              what Paul had said, even when there

                              were contradictions.



                              However, Klemp can't deal with the

                              contradictions as easily and this is

                              why he has discontinued the printing

                              of many of Twitchell's books. Older

                              ECKists could compare the original

                              version to a newer edited one and

                              this would be too embarrassing for

                              Klemp and too difficult to explain

                              away as an "update."



                              Also, if someone was going to edit

                              and replace the term "Master" with

                              "Mahanta" they would have done so

                              in the First JAN. 1, 1968 Monthly

                              Wisdom Note and Not one year
                              later!



                              Therefore, even though the copyright

                              is 1980, I'm positive that these Wisdom

                              Notes are in their original form and

                              haven't been edited.



                              Plus, this is the only printing of these

                              combined Wisdom Notes! Why was it

                              printed nine years after Paul's death?

                              It was probably done as a tribute to

                              Paul.



                              Prometheus



                              etznab@... wrote:

                              >

                              >

                              > Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008

                              > EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch

                              > thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:

                              >

                              > "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes

                              > January 1968--October 1971"

                              >

                              > *********

                              >

                              > I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We

                              > know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to

                              > Gail have in some places been edited and revised.

                              > Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may

                              > have been added retroactively, IMO.

                              >

                              > What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are

                              > in their exact original form?

                              >

                              > I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the

                              > new modern terms were added that they could

                              > only be added in some places. In other places the

                              > older tems remain because the newer ones would

                              > have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                              0D
                              > original meanings too dramatically.

                              >

                              > I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book

                              > put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,

                              > there was a time when I believed the Eck books I

                              > had access to were mostly the way they appeared

                              > to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.

                              >

                              > If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and

                              > change them in some places, IMO that would

                              > make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-

                              > line and history.

                              >

                              > Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are

                              > not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote

                              > them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that

                              > if anything was revised,

                              > would there be a way to

                              > tell?

                              >

                              > BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form

                              > of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.

                              > Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in

                              > book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.

                              > And just one year before appointment of a new

                              > LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!

                              >

                              > Etznab
                            • drubezarne
                              Prometheus and Etznab I looked in my Wisdom Notes (I should just burn everything) and found that it had a 1980 copyright and a letter by Darwin Gross. The fact
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Prometheus and Etznab
                                I looked in my Wisdom Notes (I should just burn everything) and found
                                that it had a 1980 copyright and a letter by Darwin Gross. The fact
                                that it has Darwin's letter in it must mean that it was never edited
                                because Klemp purged all the Eckankar writings of anything relating to
                                Darwin. He also told all eckists to get rid of any of Darwin's
                                writings. It reminds of the way the Soviet Union would make people
                                disappear without a trace. They just erased them and pretended they
                                never existed.

                                When I opened the Wisdom Notes, I found an August 1, 1968 letter in
                                which Paul tried to convince his followers that they needed to pay for
                                the teachings of Eck. He starts the letter with the warning that it's
                                an extremely important one for all initiates. Then he tries to justify
                                why people have to pay either in coin or service (finding more converts).

                                We know he stole the teachings from Sant Mat, Scientology, Neville,
                                and others, but mostly from Sant Mat. Unlike Eckankar, Sant Mast is
                                free of charge and is offered in a spirit of compassion and service.

                                It's interesting to note that once a person leaves Eckankar and its
                                brainwashing, it's very easy to see the greed and vanity of Twitchell,
                                Gross, and Klemp and of course, their control tactics.

                                Regards
                                Liska
                              • prometheus_973
                                The When PT FIRST created the MAHANTA title was during the time Twitchell was writing his Monthly JAN. 1, 1969 issue of The Wisdom Notes. Observation and
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                  The "When" PT FIRST created the
                                  MAHANTA title was during the time
                                  Twitchell was writing his Monthly
                                  JAN. 1, 1969 issue of "The Wisdom
                                  Notes."

                                  Observation and logic will show one
                                  the progression and development
                                  of Twitchell's Eckankar during the
                                  time frame of these Wisdom Notes.

                                  JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                  uses all caps (upper case) when FIRST
                                  using the term/title "MAHANTA."

                                  SEPT. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                  for the FIRST time uses "lower case"
                                  letters when using the term/title "Mahanta."

                                  FEB. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                  FIRST uses both titles, "MAHANTA - the
                                  living ECK Master" together!

                                  JUNE 1, 1971 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                  for the FIRST time capitalizes the "L" in
                                  "Living ECK Master."

                                  WHY did Twitchell feel compelled to
                                  become a/the "Mahanta" versus a/the
                                  "Master" or a/the "living (ECK) Master."

                                  The reason for many of these changes
                                  and posturing was PT's ego and hurt
                                  feelings and the need he had to one-up
                                  his former Master KIRPAL SINGH. Also,
                                  Twitchell had to put his former chela
                                  JOHN-ROGERS in his place since JR
                                  copied Eckankar to start his own con.

                                  Therefore, Twitchell had to distinguish
                                  himself and his group (Eckankar) from
                                  the others that he, also, copied. This is
                                  also WHY PT needed to be HIGHER than
                                  the rest, and put a palatable "Western"
                                  spin upon these Eastern religions.

                                  PT changed the "Vegetarian" rule and
                                  the Passions of the Mind where the virtue
                                  of Chastity corrects the passion of Lust.


                                  And, the highest title "MAHANTA" was
                                  needed. This would be used to close
                                  the ears of PT's chelas and, thus, quiet
                                  his critics. After all, those "lower" than
                                  the Highest Consciousness Known to
                                  Mankind (the MAHANTA) could never
                                  understand because they were, now,
                                  incapable of seeing from his (PT's)
                                  vantage point! Twitchell became the
                                  "highest" of self-appointed masters!

                                  BTW-
                                  When PT first created "ECKankar" (from
                                  "ECKonkar") he would shorten the word
                                  in his talks by calling it "ECK."

                                  Also, (another "WHY" Twit created the LEM/
                                  Mahanta) PT wanted to distinguish himself
                                  from the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang
                                  (Sant Mat) "living Masters." Thus, Paul
                                  (also) added "ECK" to his LEM title. PT's
                                  religion was no longer just another sect
                                  of another sect, but was NOW it's own
                                  "original" religion!

                                  Therefore, PT now used the term/title
                                  of living "ECK" Master versus Radhasoami's
                                  "living Master." However, just like with
                                  Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang PT still
                                  used other terms and titles, of theirs, like
                                  "Inner Master." This is where the "chicken
                                  or egg" argument comes into play. After
                                  all, didn't the "ECK" or "SPIRIT" come first!
                                  Except, "ECK" or "ECKankar" was created
                                  when Gail encouraged Paul to do something
                                  with his "research" in 1965. The Truth is-
                                  PT only created another religious sect,
                                  and Klemp has distorted and personalized
                                  the handed-down version of Paul's & Gail's
                                  creation!

                                  Prometheus

                                  prometheus wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > It's pretty obvious to me that these
                                  > Wisdom Notes of Twitchell's have
                                  > Not been edited. Darwin didn't
                                  > allow people to edit the Holy words
                                  > of EK coming from Paul... DG was
                                  > a purist. This can be seen in the
                                  > other works of Twitchell's coming
                                  > from Darwin's era. It was a Hands
                                  > Off attitude when it came to changing
                                  > what Paul had said, even when there
                                  > were contradictions.
                                  >
                                  > However, Klemp can't deal with the
                                  > contradictions as easily and this is
                                  > why he has discontinued the printing
                                  > of many of Twitchell's books. Older
                                  > ECKists could compare the original
                                  > version to a newer edited one and
                                  > this would be too embarrassing for
                                  > Klemp and too difficult to explain
                                  > away as an "update."
                                  >
                                  > Also, if someone was going to edit
                                  > and replace the term "Master" with
                                  > "Mahanta" they would have done so
                                  > in the First JAN. 1, 1968 Monthly
                                  > Wisdom Note and Not one year later!
                                  >
                                  > Therefore, even though the copyright
                                  > is 1980, I'm positive that these Wisdom
                                  > Notes are in their original form and
                                  > haven't been edited.
                                  >
                                  > Plus, this is the only printing of these
                                  > combined Wisdom Notes! Why was it
                                  > printed nine years after Paul's death?
                                  > It was probably done as a tribute to
                                  > Paul.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > etznab@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                                  > > EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                                  > > thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:
                                  > >
                                  > > "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                                  > > January 1968--October 1971"
                                  > >
                                  > > *********
                                  > >
                                  I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We
                                  know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to
                                  Gail have in some places been edited and revised.
                                  Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may
                                  have been added retroactively, IMO.
                                  > >
                                  What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are
                                  in their exact original form?
                                  > >
                                  I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the
                                  new modern terms were added that they could
                                  only be added in some places. In other places the
                                  older tems remain because the newer ones would
                                  have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                                  original meanings too dramatically.
                                  > >
                                  I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book
                                  put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,
                                  there was a time when I believed the Eck books I
                                  had access to were mostly the way they appeared
                                  to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.
                                  > >
                                  If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and
                                  change them in some places, IMO that would
                                  make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-
                                  line and history.
                                  > >
                                  Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                                  not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                                  them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                                  if anything was revised, would there be a way to
                                  tell?
                                  > >
                                  BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form
                                  of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.
                                  Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in
                                  book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.
                                  And just one year before appointment of a new
                                  LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!
                                  > >
                                  Etznab
                                  ################################
                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                  *In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                                  The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "MAHANTA"
                                  and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in
                                  the same sentence, but NOT together!

                                  Here's the quote:
                                  PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK
                                  Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta
                                  to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as
                                  the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]

                                  In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit
                                  doesn't mention the "MAHANTA" at all! Instead,
                                  PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;
                                  the living ECK Master."

                                  The next time Twitchell uses "MAHANTA" in
                                  the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"
                                  is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM
                                  NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master
                                  becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]

                                  Twitchell doesn't menton the "MAHANTA" again
                                  until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,
                                  but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)
                                  with the "living ECK Master."

                                  *In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom
                                  Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term
                                  "MAHANTA," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"
                                  for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing
                                  the "l" in "living ECK Master."

                                  *FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom
                                  Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only
                                  one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "MAHANTA"
                                  and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!
                                  Here's the quote [pg.53]:

                                  "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power
                                  is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the
                                  living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all
                                  caps!


                                  Twitchell does Not mention the "MAHANTA" in
                                  the March 1, 1970 issue.

                                  *But here's the quote for APRIL 1, 1970:
                                  "The fifth initiation and beyond are given
                                  only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK Master."

                                  This was the FIRST time PT uses a COMMA
                                  instead of a HYPHEN to separate the two titles,
                                  and "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while
                                  "living" is still in lower case.

                                  In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
                                  Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the
                                  "living ECK Master" but Not to both!

                                  *In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"
                                  Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"
                                  WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living
                                  ECK Master" is still lower case!

                                  *FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses
                                  "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")
                                  in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom
                                  Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the
                                  term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!

                                  PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971
                                  Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower
                                  case in "living ECK Master."

                                  Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971
                                  "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE
                                  "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that
                                  I counted 3 or 4 times that Twitchell used these
                                  two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.
                                  1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."

                                  Prometheus
                                • drubezarne
                                  That conman, Twitchell, also, appropriated the blue star, the white light, and the inner sounds. I remember in the early writings he said Eckankar was the only
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                    That conman, Twitchell, also, appropriated the blue star, the white
                                    light, and the inner sounds. I remember in the early writings he said
                                    Eckankar was the only path that had the light and the sound. Later,
                                    Klemp was forced to take this outrageous claim out of the literature
                                    because there are many paths that talk about the light and the sound.

                                    The phenomenon of seeing the blue star is a common occurance. There's
                                    even a scientific term for it - entoptic phenomenon. The star, the
                                    light, and the inner sounds have been known for ages in Hindu
                                    literature. Those, fortunate enough to witness these on the inner
                                    planes are seeing and hearing the presence of the Supreme Being and
                                    not Twitchell's and Klemp's fabrication of a Mahanta. You see how
                                    these false masters have the gall to replace God with their own
                                    overblown ego?

                                    Regards
                                    Liska

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The "When" PT FIRST created the
                                    > MAHANTA title was during the time
                                    > Twitchell was writing his Monthly
                                    > JAN. 1, 1969 issue of "The Wisdom
                                    > Notes."
                                    >
                                    > Observation and logic will show one
                                    > the progression and development
                                    > of Twitchell's Eckankar during the
                                    > time frame of these Wisdom Notes.
                                    >
                                    > JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                    > uses all caps (upper case) when FIRST
                                    > using the term/title "MAHANTA."
                                    >
                                    > SEPT. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                    > for the FIRST time uses "lower case"
                                    > letters when using the term/title "Mahanta."
                                    >
                                    > FEB. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                    > FIRST uses both titles, "MAHANTA - the
                                    > living ECK Master" together!
                                    >
                                    > JUNE 1, 1971 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                    > for the FIRST time capitalizes the "L" in
                                    > "Living ECK Master."
                                    >
                                    > WHY did Twitchell feel compelled to
                                    > become a/the "Mahanta" versus a/the
                                    > "Master" or a/the "living (ECK) Master."
                                    >
                                    > The reason for many of these changes
                                    > and posturing was PT's ego and hurt
                                    > feelings and the need he had to one-up
                                    > his former Master KIRPAL SINGH. Also,
                                    > Twitchell had to put his former chela
                                    > JOHN-ROGERS in his place since JR
                                    > copied Eckankar to start his own con.
                                    >
                                    > Therefore, Twitchell had to distinguish
                                    > himself and his group (Eckankar) from
                                    > the others that he, also, copied. This is
                                    > also WHY PT needed to be HIGHER than
                                    > the rest, and put a palatable "Western"
                                    > spin upon these Eastern religions.
                                    >
                                    > PT changed the "Vegetarian" rule and
                                    > the Passions of the Mind where the virtue
                                    > of Chastity corrects the passion of Lust.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > And, the highest title "MAHANTA" was
                                    > needed. This would be used to close
                                    > the ears of PT's chelas and, thus, quiet
                                    > his critics. After all, those "lower" than
                                    > the Highest Consciousness Known to
                                    > Mankind (the MAHANTA) could never
                                    > understand because they were, now,
                                    > incapable of seeing from his (PT's)
                                    > vantage point! Twitchell became the
                                    > "highest" of self-appointed masters!
                                    >
                                    > BTW-
                                    > When PT first created "ECKankar" (from
                                    > "ECKonkar") he would shorten the word
                                    > in his talks by calling it "ECK."
                                    >
                                    > Also, (another "WHY" Twit created the LEM/
                                    > Mahanta) PT wanted to distinguish himself
                                    > from the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang
                                    > (Sant Mat) "living Masters." Thus, Paul
                                    > (also) added "ECK" to his LEM title. PT's
                                    > religion was no longer just another sect
                                    > of another sect, but was NOW it's own
                                    > "original" religion!
                                    >
                                    > Therefore, PT now used the term/title
                                    > of living "ECK" Master versus Radhasoami's
                                    > "living Master." However, just like with
                                    > Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang PT still
                                    > used other terms and titles, of theirs, like
                                    > "Inner Master." This is where the "chicken
                                    > or egg" argument comes into play. After
                                    > all, didn't the "ECK" or "SPIRIT" come first!
                                    > Except, "ECK" or "ECKankar" was created
                                    > when Gail encouraged Paul to do something
                                    > with his "research" in 1965. The Truth is-
                                    > PT only created another religious sect,
                                    > and Klemp has distorted and personalized
                                    > the handed-down version of Paul's & Gail's
                                    > creation!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                    > > It's pretty obvious to me that these
                                    > > Wisdom Notes of Twitchell's have
                                    > > Not been edited. Darwin didn't
                                    > > allow people to edit the Holy words
                                    > > of EK coming from Paul... DG was
                                    > > a purist. This can be seen in the
                                    > > other works of Twitchell's coming
                                    > > from Darwin's era. It was a Hands
                                    > > Off attitude when it came to changing
                                    > > what Paul had said, even when there
                                    > > were contradictions.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, Klemp can't deal with the
                                    > > contradictions as easily and this is
                                    > > why he has discontinued the printing
                                    > > of many of Twitchell's books. Older
                                    > > ECKists could compare the original
                                    > > version to a newer edited one and
                                    > > this would be too embarrassing for
                                    > > Klemp and too difficult to explain
                                    > > away as an "update."
                                    > >
                                    > > Also, if someone was going to edit
                                    > > and replace the term "Master" with
                                    > > "Mahanta" they would have done so
                                    > > in the First JAN. 1, 1968 Monthly
                                    > > Wisdom Note and Not one year later!
                                    > >
                                    > > Therefore, even though the copyright
                                    > > is 1980, I'm positive that these Wisdom
                                    > > Notes are in their original form and
                                    > > haven't been edited.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, this is the only printing of these
                                    > > combined Wisdom Notes! Why was it
                                    > > printed nine years after Paul's death?
                                    > > It was probably done as a tribute to
                                    > > Paul.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > etznab@ wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Really though, ECKists need to go to the 2008
                                    > > > EWWS Book Room and BUY the 8.5 x 11 inch
                                    > > > thin blue book with PT's white profile titled:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "Paul Twitchell Presents The Wisdom Notes
                                    > > > January 1968--October 1971"
                                    > > >
                                    > > > *********
                                    > > >
                                    > I have that book and it's copyrighted 1980. We
                                    > know that Paul Twitchell books and his Letters to
                                    > Gail have in some places been edited and revised.
                                    > Some of the "Eck Terms" in these examples may
                                    > have been added retroactively, IMO.
                                    > > >
                                    > What are the chances those Wisdom Notes are
                                    > in their exact original form?
                                    > > >
                                    > I've noticed - in some of the writings - where the
                                    > new modern terms were added that they could
                                    > only be added in some places. In other places the
                                    > older tems remain because the newer ones would
                                    > have appeared too awkward, or else changed the
                                    > original meanings too dramatically.
                                    > > >
                                    > I don't know for sure if the Wisdom Notes book
                                    > put out in 1980 was revised, or edited. But then,
                                    > there was a time when I believed the Eck books I
                                    > had access to were mostly the way they appeared
                                    > to begin with. Nowadays, I am not so sure.
                                    > > >
                                    > If somebody did edit those Wisdom Notes and
                                    > change them in some places, IMO that would
                                    > make it much harder to illustrate the actual time-
                                    > line and history.
                                    > > >
                                    > Not saying the Wisdom Notes you quoted are
                                    > not illustrative of the words as Paul actually wrote
                                    > them. I'm just contemplating the possibility that
                                    > if anything was revised, would there be a way to
                                    > tell?
                                    > > >
                                    > BTW, I don't know if there was an earlier form
                                    > of that Wisdom Notes book, an earlier copyright.
                                    > Wonder why they waited ten years to publish in
                                    > book form the Wisdom Notes by Paul Twitchell.
                                    > And just one year before appointment of a new
                                    > LEM ("originally" set to take over in 1980)!
                                    > > >
                                    > Etznab
                                    > ################################
                                    > Hello Etznab and All,
                                    > *In the MAY 1, 1969 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                                    > The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell used "MAHANTA"
                                    > and "living ECK Master" for the FIRST time in
                                    > the same sentence, but NOT together!
                                    >
                                    > Here's the quote:
                                    > PT: "I have always followed, the line of ECK
                                    > Masters, who have given the title of Mahanta
                                    > to whoever receives the rod of ECK power as
                                    > the living ECK Master, in each age." [pg. 34]
                                    >
                                    > In the next two monthly Wisdom Notes Twit
                                    > doesn't mention the "MAHANTA" at all! Instead,
                                    > PT mentions: "the Master; the ECK Master;
                                    > the living ECK Master."
                                    >
                                    > The next time Twitchell uses "MAHANTA" in
                                    > the SAME sentence with "the living ECK Master"
                                    > is in the AUGUST 1, 1969 Monthly WISDOM
                                    > NOTES: "Therefore, each living ECK Master
                                    > becomes the Mahanta." [pg. 41]
                                    >
                                    > Twitchell doesn't menton the "MAHANTA" again
                                    > until the NOVEMBER 1, 1969 WISDOM NOTES,
                                    > but Not TOGETHER (even in the same sentence)
                                    > with the "living ECK Master."
                                    >
                                    > *In the DECEMBER 1, 1969 Monthly "The Wisdom
                                    > Notes" Twitchell Does Not (even once) use the term
                                    > "MAHANTA," but Does capitalize the "I" in "Inner Master"
                                    > for the first time! However, PT is still NOT capitalizing
                                    > the "l" in "living ECK Master."
                                    >
                                    > *FINALLY! In the FEBUARY 1, 1970 "The Wisdom
                                    > Notes" Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME (and only
                                    > one time in this Wisdom Note) mentions "MAHANTA"
                                    > and "living ECK Master" as one and the same!
                                    > Here's the quote [pg.53]:
                                    >
                                    > "Each initiate is a minister of God. The ECK power
                                    > is channeled to all through the MAHANTA - the
                                    > living ECK Master." Note that "MAHANTA" is in all
                                    > caps!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Twitchell does Not mention the "MAHANTA" in
                                    > the March 1, 1970 issue.
                                    >
                                    > *But here's the quote for APRIL 1, 1970:
                                    > "The fifth initiation and beyond are given
                                    > only by the MAHANTA, the living ECK Master."
                                    >
                                    > This was the FIRST time PT uses a COMMA
                                    > instead of a HYPHEN to separate the two titles,
                                    > and "MAHANTA" remains in upper case, while
                                    > "living" is still in lower case.
                                    >
                                    > In the MAY 1, 1970 Monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
                                    > Twitchell talks of "surrendering" (again) to the
                                    > "living ECK Master" but Not to both!
                                    >
                                    > *In the SEPTEMBER 1, 1970 "The Wisdom Notes"
                                    > Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses "Mahanta"
                                    > WITHOUT ALL CAPS! However, "living" in "living
                                    > ECK Master" is still lower case!
                                    >
                                    > *FINALLY! Twitchell FOR THE FIRST TIME uses
                                    > "The Living ECK Master" (capitalizes "Living")
                                    > in the JUNE 1, 1971 Monthly "The Wisdom
                                    > Notes!" However, Twitchell Does Not use the
                                    > term "Mahanta" anywhere in this Wisdom Note!
                                    >
                                    > PT reverts to the past! In the August 1, 1971
                                    > Wisdom Notes PT once again uses the lower
                                    > case in "living ECK Master."
                                    >
                                    > Even in the LAST MONTHLY OCTOBER 1, 1971
                                    > "The Wisdom Notes" Twitchell DID NOT USE
                                    > "Mahanta" and the "LEM" together! I think that
                                    > I counted 3 or 4 times that Twitchell used these
                                    > two terms together from FEB. 1, 1970 - OCT.
                                    > 1, 1971 in these Monthly "The Wisdom Notes."
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello All, Here s a disclaimer and Catch-22 for Twitchell s con that Klemp has adopted for himself: Next, we must examine the paradox of the perfect Master.
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 26, 2008
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                                      Hello All,
                                      Here's a disclaimer and Catch-22 for
                                      Twitchell's con that Klemp has adopted
                                      for himself:

                                      "Next, we must examine the paradox of the
                                      perfect Master. By dwelling here in the human
                                      form, among us, he is then a man. All that
                                      exists on this physical plane subsist in the
                                      illusion of maya, where all is darkness and
                                      ignorance. Therefore, we know then that all
                                      we experience in this world, see with these
                                      eyes, hear with these ears and perceive with
                                      the intellect is only delusion and darkness.
                                      Then the ECK Master in his outer form with
                                      his oral instructions and writings are also
                                      in darkness because they too are within the
                                      sphere of physical phenomena. So we find
                                      that the outer Master dwells in darkness,
                                      and speaks in the utter delusion of physical
                                      phenomena, but the inner Master exists in
                                      the true light awaiting all those who come
                                      to him." [JULY 1, 1968 "Paul Twitchell Presents:
                                      The Wisdom Notes"]

                                      So, what's the point in having a "Living" Master
                                      when "his oral instructions and writings" are of
                                      "utter delusion and darkness?" How is that a
                                      "paradox," for him, anymore than it is for anyone
                                      else? Do as I say, and Not as I do must be another
                                      paradox! LOL!

                                      BTW-
                                      It should be noted that in this entire Monthly
                                      issue for the JULY 1, 1968 The Wisdom Notes
                                      that Paul did not mention the "LEM" let alone
                                      the "Mahanta!"

                                      Instead, Twitchell uses these terms and caps:

                                      "the inner Master"
                                      "the outer Master"
                                      "the living Master"
                                      "the Master"
                                      "the Sat Guru"
                                      "the ECK Master"
                                      "the man-God"

                                      What happened to the living "ECK" Master
                                      title? The LEM title was never used because
                                      it hadn't been invented as yet!

                                      Twitchell didn't use the title of "living ECK
                                      Master" until the NOVEMBER 1, 1968 "The
                                      Wisdom Notes."

                                      The "MAHANTA" title first appeared in the
                                      JAN. 1, 1969 "The Wisdom Notes."

                                      Prometheus

                                      Liska wrote:
                                      That conman, Twitchell, also, appropriated
                                      the blue star, the white light, and the inner
                                      sounds. I remember in the early writings he
                                      said Eckankar was the only path that had the
                                      light and the sound. Later, Klemp was forced
                                      to take this outrageous claim out of the literature
                                      because there are many paths that talk about
                                      the light and the sound.

                                      The phenomenon of seeing the blue star is
                                      a common occurance. There's even a scientific
                                      term for it - entoptic phenomenon. The star,
                                      the light, and the inner sounds have been known
                                      for ages in Hindu literature. Those, fortunate
                                      enough to witness these on the inner planes
                                      are seeing and hearing the presence of the
                                      Supreme Being and not Twitchell's and Klemp's
                                      fabrication of a Mahanta. You see how these
                                      false masters have the gall to replace God with
                                      their own overblown ego?


                                      prometheus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > The "When" PT FIRST created the
                                      > MAHANTA title was during the time
                                      > Twitchell was writing his Monthly
                                      > JAN. 1, 1969 issue of "The Wisdom
                                      > Notes."
                                      >
                                      > Observation and logic will show one
                                      > the progression and development
                                      > of Twitchell's Eckankar during the
                                      > time frame of these Wisdom Notes.
                                      >
                                      > JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                      > uses all caps (upper case) when FIRST
                                      > using the term/title "MAHANTA."
                                      >
                                      > SEPT. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                      > for the FIRST time uses "lower case"
                                      > letters when using the term/title "Mahanta."
                                      >
                                      > FEB. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                      > FIRST uses both titles, "MAHANTA - the
                                      > living ECK Master" together!
                                      >
                                      > JUNE 1, 1971 Wisdom Notes Twitchell
                                      > for the FIRST time capitalizes the "L" in
                                      > "Living ECK Master."
                                      >
                                      > WHY did Twitchell feel compelled to
                                      > become a/the "Mahanta" versus a/the
                                      > "Master" or a/the "living (ECK) Master."
                                      >
                                      > The reason for many of these changes
                                      > and posturing was PT's ego and hurt
                                      > feelings and the need he had to one-up
                                      > his former Master KIRPAL SINGH. Also,
                                      > Twitchell had to put his former chela
                                      > JOHN-ROGERS in his place since JR
                                      > copied Eckankar to start his own con.
                                      >
                                      > Therefore, Twitchell had to distinguish
                                      > himself and his group (Eckankar) from
                                      > the others that he, also, copied. This is
                                      > also WHY PT needed to be HIGHER than
                                      > the rest, and put a palatable "Western"
                                      > spin upon these Eastern religions.
                                      >
                                      > PT changed the "Vegetarian" rule and
                                      > the Passions of the Mind where the virtue
                                      > of Chastity corrects the passion of Lust.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > And, the highest title "MAHANTA" was
                                      > needed. This would be used to close
                                      > the ears of PT's chelas and, thus, quiet
                                      > his critics. After all, those "lower" than
                                      > the Highest Consciousness Known to
                                      > Mankind (the MAHANTA) could never
                                      > understand because they were, now,
                                      > incapable of seeing from his (PT's)
                                      > vantage point! Twitchell became the
                                      > "highest" of self-appointed masters!
                                      >
                                      > BTW-
                                      > When PT first created "ECKankar" (from
                                      > "ECKonkar") he would shorten the word
                                      > in his talks by calling it "ECK."
                                      >
                                      > Also, (another "WHY" Twit created the LEM/
                                      > Mahanta) PT wanted to distinguish himself
                                      > from the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang
                                      > (Sant Mat) "living Masters." Thus, Paul
                                      > (also) added "ECK" to his LEM title. PT's
                                      > religion was no longer just another sect
                                      > of another sect, but was NOW it's own
                                      > "original" religion!
                                      >
                                      > Therefore, PT now used the term/title
                                      > of living "ECK" Master versus Radhasoami's
                                      > "living Master." However, just like with
                                      > Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang PT still
                                      > used other terms and titles, of theirs, like
                                      > "Inner Master." This is where the "chicken
                                      > or egg" argument comes into play. After
                                      > all, didn't the "ECK" or "SPIRIT" come first!
                                      > Except, "ECK" or "ECKankar" was created
                                      > when Gail encouraged Paul to do something
                                      > with his "research" in 1965. The Truth is-
                                      > PT only created another religious sect,
                                      > and Klemp has distorted and personalized
                                      > the handed-down version of Paul's & Gail's
                                      > creation!
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                    • etznab@aol.com
                                      E.S.A., I found it somwhat curious that when the MAHANTA term appeared in the wisdom notes that there wasn t more history about where this term came from. I
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 26, 2008
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                                        E.S.A.,

                                        I found it somwhat curious that when the
                                        "MAHANTA" term appeared in the wisdom
                                        notes that there wasn't more history about
                                        where this term came from. I mean, if really
                                        so new, shouldn't it have come with more
                                        history and explanation?

                                        The word itself is not even English. One
                                        with the same letters has existed for many
                                        years anterior to the trademarked Eckankar
                                        all caps version, but not in English, IMO.

                                        Making it "different", IMO, means giving
                                        the creator liberty to define it different from
                                        other forms and the definitions attached to
                                        them.

                                        No place do I see in the writings of Paul
                                        Twitchell an attempt to illustrate the "etym-
                                        ology" of this word as it existed previously.
                                        Either I haven't seen it, missed it, forgot I
                                        saw it, or the explanation never existed.

                                        [Well, there was a reference to the word
                                        "mahantas" - in the Forward to The Tiger's
                                        Fang, written by Brad Steiger and dated
                                        October 1968, mind you. It was in italics
                                        as late as the 8th Printing 1979 version,
                                        and was supposed to have been Brad S.
                                        quoting Paul Twitchell. Paul's Intro to The
                                        Tiger's Fang carries the same sentence -
                                        which would appear (IMO) to indicate it
                                        was a quote (by Brad in the Forward) of
                                        Paul Twitchell, but the word mahantas,
                                        in Paul's Intro, is replaced by the word
                                        teachers! Incidentally, the same Brad
                                        Steiger Forward appears in the 1969
                                        version of The Tiger's Fang, however,
                                        an Intro=2
                                        0by Paul Twitchell does NOT!
                                        Intro I read was in the 1979 version -
                                        followed by the name Paul Twitchell
                                        typed. The context for "mahantas" -
                                        as used by Brad Steiger was - app-
                                        arently - tied to the term "spiritual
                                        travelers". Both words "mahantas"
                                        & "spiritual travelers" appear to be
                                        plural. NOT singular.]

                                        Another word I am looking for explanation,
                                        history and etymology for is Mahavakyis -
                                        a word associated with the "Silent Ones", I
                                        believe.

                                        Neither "mahanta" or "mahavakyis" is too
                                        terribly difficult to decipher, IMO, concerning
                                        their history prior to Eckankar Inc.

                                        For the latter, I would have to ask: What
                                        language is that? There is a word in Sanskrit
                                        (and in Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters)
                                        that looks something like mahavakya. In this
                                        illustration I see the elements "maha" + "vak"
                                        + ya.

                                        On the following link you can type the word
                                        mahavakya - in space adjacent "Word in Primary
                                        Language (Sanskrit, Tamil, Pahlavi) - and then
                                        click search. There is a definition.

                                        Also, you can search for the elements "maha"
                                        and "vakya" for their definitions as well. Incidentally,
                                        the root in vakya ["vak"] is curiously similar to that
                                        for the Sanskrit root "vac". The Latin root for "voice"
                                        is "voc" (perhaps "vox") and letter "k" is generally
                                        thought to be "older" than the letter "c". "Vac," &
                                        "Vach" - in Hindu mythology I have seen - has a
                                        connection to the feminine, or the "female" sid
                                        e of
                                        creation.

                                        What is interesting to me is that I don't neces-
                                        sarily see the idea of "nine" or "silent" in the word
                                        mahavakyis (or in mahavakya, for that matter). So
                                        I still wonder about the etymology of this word.

                                        Etznab

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:32 pm
                                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: When & Why Twitchell First
                                        Created the "Mahanta"



                                        Hello All,

                                        Here's a disclaimer and Catch-22 for

                                        Twitchell's con that Klemp has adopted

                                        for himself:



                                        "Next, we must examine the paradox of the

                                        perfect Master. By dwelling here in the human

                                        form, among us, he is then a man. All that

                                        exists on this physical plane subsist in the

                                        illusion of maya, where all is darkness and

                                        ignorance. Therefore, we know then that all

                                        we experience in this world, see with these

                                        eyes, hear with these ears and perceive with

                                        the intellect is only delusion and darkness.

                                        Then the ECK Master in his outer form with

                                        his oral instructions and writings are also

                                        in darkness because they too are within the

                                        sphere of physical phenomena. So we find

                                        that the outer Master dwells in darkness,

                                        and speaks in the utter delusion of physical

                                        phenomena, but the inner Master exists in

                                        the true light awaiting all those who come

                                        to him." [JU
                                        LY 1, 1968 "Paul Twitchell Presents:

                                        The Wisdom Notes"]



                                        So, what's the point in having a "Living" Master

                                        when "his oral instructions and writings" are of

                                        "utter delusion and darkness?" How is that a

                                        "paradox," for him, anymore than it is for anyone

                                        else? Do as I say, and Not as I do must be another

                                        paradox! LOL!



                                        BTW-

                                        It should be noted that in this entire Monthly

                                        issue for the JULY 1, 1968 The Wisdom Notes

                                        that Paul did not mention the "LEM" let alone

                                        the "Mahanta!"



                                        Instead, Twitchell uses these terms and caps:



                                        "the inner Master"

                                        "the outer Master"

                                        "the living Master"

                                        "the Master"

                                        "the Sat Guru"

                                        "the ECK Master"

                                        "the man-God"



                                        What happened to the living "ECK" Master

                                        title? The LEM title was never used because

                                        it hadn't been invented as yet!



                                        Twitchell didn't use the title of "living ECK

                                        Master" until the NOVEMBER 1, 1968 "The

                                        Wisdom Notes."



                                        The "MAHANTA" title first appeared in the

                                        JAN. 1, 1969 "The Wisdom Notes."



                                        Prometheus



                                        Liska wrote:

                                        That conman, Twitchell, also, appropriated

                                        the blue star, the white light, and the inner

                                        sounds. I remember in the early writings he

                                        said Eckankar was the only path that had the

                                        light and the sound. Later, Klemp was forced

                                        to take this outrageo
                                        us claim out of the literature

                                        because there are many paths that talk about

                                        the light and the sound.



                                        The phenomenon of seeing the blue star is

                                        a common occurance. There's even a scientific

                                        term for it - entoptic phenomenon. The star,

                                        the light, and the inner sounds have been known

                                        for ages in Hindu literature. Those, fortunate

                                        enough to witness these on the inner planes

                                        are seeing and hearing the presence of the

                                        Supreme Being and not Twitchell's and Klemp's

                                        fabrication of a Mahanta. You see how these

                                        false masters have the gall to replace God with

                                        their own overblown ego?



                                        prometheus wrote:

                                        >

                                        > The "When" PT FIRST created the

                                        > MAHANTA title was during the time

                                        > Twitchell was writing his Monthly

                                        > JAN. 1, 1969 issue of "The Wisdom

                                        > Notes."

                                        >

                                        > Observation and logic will show one

                                        > the progression and development

                                        > of Twitchell's Eckankar during the

                                        > time frame of these Wisdom Notes.

                                        >

                                        > JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes Twitchell

                                        > uses all caps (upper case) when FIRST

                                        > using the term/title "MAHANTA."

                                        >

                                        > SEPT. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell

                                        > for the FIRST time uses "lower case"

                                        > letters when using the term/title "Mahanta."

                                        >

                                        > FEB. 1, 1970 Wisdom Notes Twitchell

                                        > FIRST uses both ti
                                        tles, "MAHANTA - the

                                        > living ECK Master" together!

                                        >

                                        > JUNE 1, 1971 Wisdom Notes Twitchell

                                        > for the FIRST time capitalizes the "L" in

                                        > "Living ECK Master."

                                        >

                                        > WHY did Twitchell feel compelled to

                                        > become a/the "Mahanta" versus a/the

                                        > "Master" or a/the "living (ECK) Master."

                                        >

                                        > The reason for many of these changes

                                        > and posturing was PT's ego and hurt

                                        > feelings and the need he had to one-up

                                        > his former Master KIRPAL SINGH. Also,

                                        > Twitchell had to put his former chela

                                        > JOHN-ROGERS in his place since JR

                                        > copied Eckankar to start his own con.

                                        >

                                        > Therefore, Twitchell had to distinguish

                                        > himself and his group (Eckankar) from

                                        > the others that he, also, copied. This is

                                        > also WHY PT needed to be HIGHER than

                                        > the rest, and put a palatable "Western"

                                        > spin upon these Eastern religions.

                                        >

                                        > PT changed the "Vegetarian" rule and

                                        > the Passions of the Mind where the virtue

                                        > of Chastity corrects the passion of Lust.

                                        >

                                        >

                                        > And, the highest title "MAHANTA" was

                                        > needed. This would be used to close

                                        > the ears of PT's chelas and, thus, quiet

                                        > his critics. After all, those "lower" than

                                        > the Highest Consciousness Known to

                                        > Mankind (the MAHANTA) could ne
                                        ver

                                        > understand because they were, now,

                                        > incapable of seeing from his (PT's)

                                        > vantage point! Twitchell became the

                                        > "highest" of self-appointed masters!

                                        >

                                        > BTW-

                                        > When PT first created "ECKankar" (from

                                        > "ECKonkar") he would shorten the word

                                        > in his talks by calling it "ECK."

                                        >

                                        > Also, (another "WHY" Twit created the LEM/

                                        > Mahanta) PT wanted to distinguish himself

                                        > from the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang

                                        > (Sant Mat) "living Masters." Thus, Paul

                                        > (also) added "ECK" to his LEM title. PT's

                                        > religion was no longer just another sect

                                        > of another sect, but was NOW it's own

                                        > "original" religion!

                                        >

                                        > Therefore, PT now used the term/title

                                        > of living "ECK" Master versus Radhasoami's

                                        > "living Master." However, just like with

                                        > Radhasoami and Ruhani Satsang PT still

                                        > used other terms and titles, of theirs, like

                                        > "Inner Master." This is where the "chicken

                                        > or egg" argument comes into play. After

                                        > all, didn't the "ECK" or "SPIRIT" come first!

                                        > Except, "ECK" or "ECKankar" was created

                                        > when Gail encouraged Paul to do something

                                        > with his "research" in 1965. The Truth is-

                                        > PT only created another religious sect,

                                        > and Klemp has distorted and personalized

                                        > the handed-down version of Paul's & Gail's


                                        > creation!

                                        >

                                        > Prometheus
                                      • etznab@aol.com
                                        Sorry, I forgot to give a dictionary link for my previous response to this thread: http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ Etznab
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 26, 2008
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                                          Sorry, I forgot to give a dictionary link
                                          for my previous response to this thread:

                                          http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/

                                          Etznab
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hi Etznab and All, PT s lies evolved! If Steiger did get the term mahantas from Twitchell in October 1968 and Twitchell wrote the JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 27, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Etznab and All,
                                            PT's lies evolved! If Steiger did get
                                            the term "mahantas" from Twitchell in
                                            October 1968 and Twitchell wrote the
                                            JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes (where he
                                            first mentions MAHANTA) in the previous
                                            month of DEC. 1968 then this does show
                                            the evolution of Twitchell's lies and con
                                            of Eckankar.

                                            It's not really all that strange that Twitchell
                                            didn't give any background on the "mahanta."
                                            He didn't need to right away. PT could just
                                            equate the mahanta title to that of the "Inner
                                            Master."

                                            Where in Eckankar then or now do you see
                                            any "etymology?" Look at the word Eckankar
                                            versus Eckonkar!

                                            Does Klemp really want to discuss etymology?
                                            Besides, in both New Age and Fundamentalist
                                            Religions it is not necessary for their members
                                            to dot all of the "i's" or cross all of the "t's!"
                                            Faith and Belief come into play more than Facts
                                            or Truth!

                                            Prometheus



                                            etznab@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > E.S.A.,
                                            >
                                            > I found it somwhat curious that when the
                                            > "MAHANTA" term appeared in the wisdom
                                            > notes that there wasn't more history about
                                            > where this term came from. I mean, if really
                                            > so new, shouldn't it have come with more
                                            > history and explanation?
                                            >
                                            > The word itself is not even English. One
                                            > with the same letters has existed for many
                                            > years anterior to the trademarked Eckankar
                                            > all caps version, but not in English, IMO.
                                            >
                                            > Making it "different", IMO, means giving
                                            > the creator liberty to define it different from
                                            > other forms and the definitions attached to
                                            > them.
                                            >
                                            > No place do I see in the writings of Paul
                                            > Twitchell an attempt to illustrate the "etym-
                                            > ology" of this word as it existed previously.
                                            > Either I haven't seen it, missed it, forgot I
                                            > saw it, or the explanation never existed.
                                            >
                                            > [Well, there was a reference to the word
                                            > "mahantas" - in the Forward to The Tiger's
                                            > Fang, written by Brad Steiger and dated
                                            > October 1968, mind you. It was in italics
                                            > as late as the 8th Printing 1979 version,
                                            > and was supposed to have been Brad S.
                                            > quoting Paul Twitchell. Paul's Intro to The
                                            > Tiger's Fang carries the same sentence -
                                            > which would appear (IMO) to indicate it
                                            > was a quote (by Brad in the Forward) of
                                            > Paul Twitchell, but the word mahantas,
                                            > in Paul's Intro, is replaced by the word
                                            > teachers! Incidentally, the same Brad
                                            > Steiger Forward appears in the 1969
                                            > version of The Tiger's Fang, however,
                                            > an Intro=2
                                            > 0by Paul Twitchell does NOT!
                                            > Intro I read was in the 1979 version -
                                            > followed by the name Paul Twitchell
                                            > typed. The context for "mahantas" -
                                            > as used by Brad Steiger was - app-
                                            > arently - tied to the term "spiritual
                                            > travelers". Both words "mahantas"
                                            > & "spiritual travelers" appear to be
                                            > plural. NOT singular.]
                                            >
                                            > Another word I am looking for explanation,
                                            > history and etymology for is Mahavakyis -
                                            > a word associated with the "Silent Ones", I
                                            > believe.
                                            >
                                            > Neither "mahanta" or "mahavakyis" is too
                                            > terribly difficult to decipher, IMO, concerning
                                            > their history prior to Eckankar Inc.
                                            >
                                            > For the latter, I would have to ask: What
                                            > language is that? There is a word in Sanskrit
                                            > (and in Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters)
                                            > that looks something like mahavakya. In this
                                            > illustration I see the elements "maha" + "vak"
                                            > + ya.
                                            >
                                            > On the following link you can type the word
                                            > mahavakya - in space adjacent "Word in Primary
                                            > Language (Sanskrit, Tamil, Pahlavi) - and then
                                            > click search. There is a definition.
                                            >
                                            > Also, you can search for the elements "maha"
                                            > and "vakya" for their definitions as well. Incidentally,
                                            > the root in vakya ["vak"] is curiously similar to that
                                            > for the Sanskrit root "vac". The Latin root for "voice"
                                            > is "voc" (perhaps "vox") and letter "k" is generally
                                            > thought to be "older" than the letter "c". "Vac," &
                                            > "Vach" - in Hindu mythology I have seen - has a
                                            > connection to the feminine, or the "female" sid
                                            > e of
                                            > creation.
                                            >
                                            > What is interesting to me is that I don't neces-
                                            > sarily see the idea of "nine" or "silent" in the word
                                            > mahavakyis (or in mahavakya, for that matter). So
                                            > I still wonder about the etymology of this word.
                                            >
                                            > Etznab
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