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ECK Master Gotta (aka Gotcha!) Was Among 1st

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  • prometheus_973
    GOTTA is mentioned on page 82 of the EK Lexicon and was among the 1st of the Vairagi Order... claims both Twit and Klemp. However, HERACLITUS is Not mentioned
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 8, 2008
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      GOTTA is mentioned on page 82
      of the EK Lexicon and was among
      the 1st of the Vairagi Order...
      claims both Twit and Klemp.

      However, HERACLITUS is Not
      mentioned as an ECK Master,
      although, the HERACLIANS are
      mentioned as a future ROOT
      race in Klemp's Lexicon!

      At least now I know where both
      Klemp and Twit found their info
      in order to twist their facts.

      "Heraclians. A future ROOT RACE
      to conquer and control the world;
      fair and just, they will rule around
      the year 6025 A.D., and the
      civilization will last from 500 to 1000
      years." [EK Lexicon, Copyright 1998,
      pg. 87]

      "HERACLIANS. The FIFTH RACE to
      conquer and control the world of the
      future; fair and just, they will rule
      around the year 6025 and the
      civilization will last from 500 to 1000
      years." [PT's Eckankar Dictionary,
      Sixth Printing 1986, pg. 60]

      Interesting that Klemp CHANGED
      Twitchell's info and refers to these
      people as a future "ROOT" race while
      PT says that this is the "FIFTH" race
      to conquer and control the world.
      Isn't the FIFTH RACE, according to
      ECK DOGMA, the ARYAN RACE!
      It seems that Klemp is cleaning up
      PT's crap again, or maybe HK mistakenly
      misinterpreted what Twit was really
      saying???

      BTW- Both Twit and Klemp give this
      same definition:

      "ARRIANS. A cruel race which will
      take over Earth about the year 3500
      A.D., later spreading to Mars and Venus."
      [EK Lexicon, pg.11]


      HK-"The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1985:

      "HERACLITUS, the ancient Greek philosopher,
      had a Mental Concept of the ECK that
      reduced It to the level of the Mind Power.
      BUT Heraclitus saw that Reality in the
      Universe is at the mercy of the LAW
      of CHANGE, since THINGS FLOW IN the
      Universe all the time...

      For us, the conflict of mind and Spirit boils
      down to a practical issue: Who takes care
      of things--God or me?

      Mostly, it is the initiate who must take
      care of himself.

      The Mahanta shows him HOW TO get
      insights from the ECK through intuition,
      Soul Travel, or dreams.

      A PERSON IN THE ECK LINE OF UNFOLDMENT
      IS SOON ABLE TO GET FREE OF THE HOPELESS
      HUMAN CONDITION AND RISE ABOVE IT INTO
      THE PURE STATES OF WISDOM, FREEDOM, AND
      IMMORTALITY." [end of quote]

      So, this ECK Unfoldment to the PURE STATES
      of Wisdom, Freedom and Immortality takes
      place SOON for the chela!

      That's BULLSHIT isn't it!

      The only "plus factor" in Eckankar is that
      there is always another Catch-22 and hoop
      to jump through! Fame and Service are key
      for promotion to a 7th and/or RESA position.

      How to become a Klemp minion: Pull in
      a lot of new members and money like Don
      and Bob and a 7th RESA can make it to
      the 8th. Marry the Klempster, become a
      Trustee, Pres. or V.P. of the ORG, or be on
      the Spiritual Council and one can get an 8th
      too! The thing is... narcissists just don't
      want to share the power! This is why
      Klemp doesn't promote more people
      into the 8th & 9th Circles and why he
      really "slowed down" the initiations. It's
      all just too obvious!

      Prometheus


      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Etznab and All,
      > It's interesting that Twitchell says that
      > the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
      > Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
      > that they are from both Venus and Agam
      > Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
      > Agam Des is located on Earth!
      >
      > Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
      > and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
      > reside there as a GOD-EATER.
      >
      > BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
      > Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
      > SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
      > or Eckankar copyright is he!
      >
      > "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:
      >
      > "At the European and African ECK Seminars
      > we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
      > ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
      > 'What is the HU?"
      >
      > Klemp now tells of a reported experience
      > of a female ECKist attending.
      >
      > "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
      > she shut her eyes and chanted with the
      > audience, silently asking three times, 'What
      > is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
      > to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
      > again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
      > face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."
      >
      > The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
      > Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
      > gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
      > Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
      > Plane!
      >
      > Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
      > "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
      > How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
      > if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
      > Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
      > subjective experience!
      >
      > Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
      > where's the portrait of SAT NAM?
      >
      > Check out these sites-
      >
      > http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html
      >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > Thanks for the following info Etznab:
      >
      > "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
      > by a little known RACE which is living in
      > AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
      > ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
      > GOD-EATERS.
      >
      > These beings are members of the ANCIENT
      > BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
      > They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
      > from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
      > ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
      > plants and other foods."
      >
      > Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
      > Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
      > p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      > >
      > > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
      > > are gullible New Age wannabes!
      > >
      > > How can rational and intelligent people
      > > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
      > > from orthodox religions that taught
      > > similar fiction and myth. And, these
      > > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
      > > New Age ones have complex dogmas
      > > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
      > > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
      > > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
      > >
      > > All religions rely upon the current
      > > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
      > > the imaginations of his believers!
      > >
      > > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
      > > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
      > > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
      > > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
      > >
      > > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
      > > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
      > > through the worlds, through the Planes
      > > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
      > > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
      > > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
      > > of matter--some of the newly formed
      > > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
      > > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
      > > world of EARTH.
      > >
      > > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
      > > formed the consciousness of man in
      > > the flesh temple of the human body,
      > > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
      > > and take up the burdens of karma until
      > > at last, one day, each would be ready
      > > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
      > >
      > > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
      > > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
      > > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
      > > that man was "placed here by colonists
      > > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
      > > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
      > > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
      > > are expected to "serve."
      > >
      > > Here's an interesting definition from
      > > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
      > >
      > > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
      > > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
      > > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
      > > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
      > > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
      > > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
      > >
      > > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
      > > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
      > > stole the words and ideas of others without
      > > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
      > > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
      > > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
      > > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
      > > he receives 50% royalties on!
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      > >
      > > ************************************************
      > > ETZNAB WROTE:
      > > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
      > > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
      > > mistranslated it to begin with.
      > >
      > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
      > > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
      > > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
      > > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
      > > empire throughout the world. [....]"
      > >
      > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
      > > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
      > > 1986, p. 97 ]
      > >
      > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
      > > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
      > > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
      > > of years ago. [....]"
      > >
      > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
      > > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
      > >
      > > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
      > > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
      > >
      > > prometheus wrote:
      > > >
      > > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
      > > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
      > > >
      > > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
      > > The world is never without him, for the line
      > > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
      > > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
      > > from JUPITER."
      > > >
      > > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
      > > >
      > > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
      > > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
      > > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
      > > >
      > > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
      > > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
      > > JUPITER!"
      > > >
      > > Where are the other RACES from?
      > > >
      > > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
      > > I don't think so!!!
      > > >
      > > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
      > > from?
      > > >
      > > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
      > > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
      > > another Klemp story! Yawn!
      > > >
      > > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
      > > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
      > > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
      > > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
      > > >
      > > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
      > > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
      > > >
      > > Prometheus
      > > >
      > > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
      > > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
      > > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
      > > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
      > > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
      > > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
      > > >
      > > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
      > > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
      > > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
      > > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
      > > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
      > > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
      > > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
      > > >
      > > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
      > > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
      > > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
      > > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
      > > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
      > >
      >
    • prometheus_973
      I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking to seekers?
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 12, 2008
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        I thought I'd bring this back for
        another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
        Ever to mention the Jupiter and
        Venus connection with the EK
        Masters when speaking to seekers?
        Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
        ever to mention the lifetime "service"
        requirement to new seekers? No,
        again! I wonder, why Not? Too
        much Truth... they'd get spiritual
        indigestion!!!

        Prometheus


        Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

        Hi Etznab and All,
        Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
        (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
        Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

        Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
        Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
        mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

        "CLARION. A planet where higher
        evolved Souls are living to help carry
        on the work of GOD throughout the
        universe."

        Etznab wrote:

        More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

        "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
        by a little known race which is living in
        Agam Des, and whom we know as the
        Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
        in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
        These beings are members of the Ancient
        Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
        They attained their name, the god-eaters,
        from the fact that they absorb cosmic
        energies instead of assimilating plants
        and other foods." [my brackets]

        Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
        Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
        p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

        ******************************************

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        Klemp is a scammer and his followers
        are gullible New Age wannabes!
        >
        How can rational and intelligent people
        believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
        from orthodox religions that taught
        similar fiction and myth. And, these
        Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
        New Age ones have complex dogmas
        and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
        of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
        Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
        >
        All religions rely upon the current
        LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
        the imaginations of his believers!
        >
        I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
        that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
        HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
        when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
        >
        "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
        Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
        through the worlds, through the Planes
        and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
        of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
        At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
        of matter--some of the newly formed
        planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
        THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
        world of EARTH.
        >
        Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
        formed the consciousness of man in
        the flesh temple of the human body,
        to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
        and take up the burdens of karma until
        at last, one day, each would be ready
        to return to the heavenly home." [end]
        >
        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
        that man was "placed here by colonists
        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
        Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
        are expected to "serve."
        >
        Here's an interesting definition from
        Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
        >
        "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
        which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
        of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
        was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
        FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
        the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
        >
        It's true that Twitchell was a professional
        liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
        stole the words and ideas of others without
        giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
        of spiritual experiences from chelas written
        in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
        use these as "inspiration" for his books that
        he receives 50% royalties on!
        >
        Prometheus
        >
        ************************************************
        ETZNAB WROTE:
        Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
        when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
        mistranslated it to begin with.
        >
        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
        all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
        the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
        years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
        empire throughout the world. [....]"
        >
        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
        Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
        1986, p. 97 ]
        >
        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
        its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
        crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
        of years ago. [....]"
        >
        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
        Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
        >
        It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
        in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

        prometheus wrote:
        > >
        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
        > >
        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
        The world is never without him, for the line
        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
        from JUPITER."
        > >
        ME: WOW! JUPITER!
        > >
        When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
        in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
        the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
        > >
        People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
        to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
        JUPITER!"
        > >
        Where are the other RACES from?
        > >
        Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
        I don't think sooooo!!!
        > >
        What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
        from?
        > >
        Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
        Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
        another Klemp story! Yawn!
        > >
        Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
        Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
        Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
        covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
        > >
        This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
        question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
        > >
        Prometheus
        > >
        P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
        just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
        Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
        too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
        we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
        aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
        > >
        Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
        the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
        of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
        for his contradictions of information? Or, does
        Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
        and is more focused upon those Souls residing
        on the Inner Planes? LOL!
        > >
        I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
        sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
        Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
        it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
        by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 6, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello All,
          I thought I'd bring this back for
          another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
          Ever to mention the Jupiter and
          Venus connection with the EK
          Masters when speaking to seekers?
          Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
          ever to mention the lifetime "service"
          requirement to new seekers? No,
          again! I wonder, why Not? Too
          much Truth... they'd get spiritual
          indigestion!!!

          - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -

          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING
          1984 writes:

          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
          The world is never without him, for the line
          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER."

          Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
          (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
          Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

          Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
          Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
          mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

          "CLARION. A planet where higher
          evolved Souls are living to help carry
          on the work of GOD throughout the
          universe."

          Etznab wrote:

          More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

          "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
          by a little known race which is living in
          Agam Des, and whom we know as the
          Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
          in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
          These beings are members of the Ancient
          Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
          They attained their name, the god-eaters,
          from the fact that they absorb cosmic
          energies instead of assimilating plants
          and other foods." [my brackets]

          Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
          Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
          p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

          ******************************************

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          Klemp is a scammer and his followers
          are gullible New Age wannabes!
          >
          How can rational and intelligent people
          believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
          from orthodox religions that taught
          similar fiction and myth. And, these
          Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
          New Age ones have complex dogmas
          and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
          of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
          Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
          >
          All religions rely upon the current
          LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
          the imaginations of his believers!
          >
          I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
          that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
          HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
          when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

          "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
          Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
          through the worlds, through the Planes
          and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
          of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
          At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
          of matter--some of the newly formed
          planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
          THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
          world of EARTH.

          Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
          formed the consciousness of man in
          the flesh temple of the human body,
          to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
          and take up the burdens of karma until
          at last, one day, each would be ready
          to return to the heavenly home." [end]

          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
          that man was "placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
          are expected to "serve."
          >
          Here's an interesting definition from
          Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
          >
          "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
          which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
          of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
          was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
          FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
          the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
          >
          It's true that Twitchell was a professional
          liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
          stole the words and ideas of others without
          giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
          of spiritual experiences from chelas written
          in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
          use these as "inspiration" for his books that
          he receives 50% royalties on!
          >
          Prometheus
          >
          ************************************************
          ETZNAB WROTE:
          Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
          when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
          mistranslated it to begin with.
          >
          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
          all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
          the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
          years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
          empire throughout the world. [....]"
          >
          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
          1986, p. 97 ]
          >
          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
          its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
          crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
          of years ago. [....]"
          >
          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
          >
          It looks like someone got rid of that reference
          to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took
          until 1988!

          prometheus wrote:
          > >
          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
          > >
          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
          The world is never without him, for the line
          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER."
          > >
          ME: WOW! JUPITER!
          > >
          When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
          in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
          the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
          > >
          People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
          to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
          JUPITER!"
          > >
          Where are the other RACES from?
          > >
          Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
          I don't think sooooo!!!
          > >
          What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
          from?
          > >
          Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
          Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
          another Klemp story! Yawn!
          > >
          Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
          Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
          Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
          covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
          > >
          This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
          question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
          > >
          Prometheus
          > >
          P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
          just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
          Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
          too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
          we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
          aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
          > >
          Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
          the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
          of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
          for his contradictions of information? Or, does
          Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
          and is more focused upon those Souls residing
          on the Inner Planes? LOL!
          > >
          I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
          sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
          Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
          it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
          by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
        • etznab@aol.com
          Prometheus, You illustrated: I don t see how Klemp got it that the 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially, that man was
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Prometheus,

            You illustrated:

            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
            that man was "placed here by colonists
            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
            Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
            are expected to "serve."

            That was a good point, I thought. Because
            legends, myths, fables and folktales are part
            of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not
            in the beginning, they seep in over time when
            people speculate about what they read, and /
            or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo
            (man-made) religion / history are a part of the
            organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However
            when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &
            actually happened I believe people have every
            right to challenge such allegations.

            Here are some examples. The early manu-
            scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The
            Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later
            1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books
            by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.

            These are examples about truth vs. fiction -
            not because I absolutely know all the details -
            but because the subject is "suspicious" and
            /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.

            Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal
            Singh round about the mid 50s when the two
            manuscripts were reportedly written.

            In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his
            0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.

            In one of your past posts (I don't have the #
            or date) you wrote:

            "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on
            his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came
            back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second
            was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."

            I think that information was mentioned in Ford
            Johnson's book, too.

            Consider what Doug Marman gave back around
            the year 2000:

            ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but
            did nothing with the book until he offered it to
            Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues
            With The Master around 1956, from the refer-
            ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.
            Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but
            didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion
            Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's
            writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't
            published until 1970."

            [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]

            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

            I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-
            cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of
            them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal
            Singh.

            Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal
            Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in
            Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson
            wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"
            by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.

            =0
            A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,
            since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-
            scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar
            terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh
            reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.
            And it might possibly have been in the possession
            of Eckankar for a number of years.

            According to Kirpal Singh?

            "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,
            The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-
            ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.
            He changed that book before printing; where he men-
            tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."

            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm

            My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh
            dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.
            MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED
            THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS
            BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY
            THAT NAME!

            Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early
            manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it
            has the manuscript in its possession.

            There has been controversy over when the name of
            Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date
            I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an
            illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is
            the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang
            manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs
            given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was
            it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?
            If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar
            it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who
            came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?

            *************************************************************

            Those were examples because I have mostly seen
            the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't
            have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.

            If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,
            that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs
            does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would
            have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to
            the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.

            I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.
            One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And
            in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.

            Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.
            (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The
            Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in
            Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may
            have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into
            that path in 1963. So ...?

            Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to
            have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's
            Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the
            name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

            I have asked ab
            out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.
            Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-
            Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-
            ists. Even long-time members from the early days.

            Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right
            to have the truth.

            I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.

            Etznab


            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!








            Hello All,

            I thought I'd bring this back for

            another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas

            Ever to mention the Jupiter and

            Venus connection with the EK

            Masters when speaking to seekers?

            Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas

            ever to mention the lifetime "service"

            requirement to new seekers? No,

            again! I wonder, why Not? Too

            much Truth... they'd get spiritual

            indigestion!!!



            - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -



            Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

            "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING

            1984 writes:



            "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,

            The world is never without him, for the line

            of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

            ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

            from JUPITER."



            Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods

            (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D

            Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



            Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from

            Clarion! Klemp even has this planet

            mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



            "CLARION. A planet where higher

            evolved Souls are living to help carry

            on the work of GOD throughout the

            universe."



            Etznab wrote:



            More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



            "Eckankar was brought here from Venus

            by a little known race which is living in

            Agam Des, and whom we know as the

            Eshwar Khanewale [last two words

            in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.

            These beings are members of the Ancient

            Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.

            They attained their name, the god-eaters,

            from the fact that they absorb cosmic

            energies instead of assimilating plants

            and other foods." [my brackets]



            Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,

            Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,

            p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



            ******************************************



            prometheus wrote:

            >

            Klemp is a scammer and his followers

            are gullible New Age wannabes!

            >

            How can rational and intelligent people

            believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

            from orthodox religions that taught

            similar fiction and myth. And, these

            Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

            New Age ones have complex dogmas

            and glowing "spiritual" test
            imonials

            of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

            Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

            >

            All religions rely upon the current

            LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

            the imaginations of his believers!

            >

            I'm still wondering how Klemp can say

            that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

            HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

            when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



            "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

            Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

            through the worlds, through the Planes

            and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

            of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

            At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

            of matter--some of the newly formed

            planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

            THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

            world of EARTH.



            Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

            formed the consciousness of man in

            the flesh temple of the human body,

            to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

            and take up the burdens of karma until

            at last, one day, each would be ready

            to return to the heavenly home." [end]



            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

            that man was "placed here by colonists

            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

            Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists

            are expected to "serve."

            >

            Here's an interesting definition from

            Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

            >

            "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

            which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

            of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

            was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the

            FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

            the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

            >

            It's true that Twitchell was a professional

            liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

            stole the words and ideas of others without

            giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

            of spiritual experiences from chelas written

            in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

            use these as "inspiration" for his books that

            he receives 50% royalties on!

            >

            Prometheus

            >

            ************************************************

            ETZNAB WROTE:

            Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

            when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

            mistranslated it to begin with.

            >

            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

            all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

            the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

            years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

            empire throughout the world. [....]"

            >

            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

            Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

            1986, p. 97 ]

            >

            0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

            its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

            crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

            of years ago. [....]"

            >

            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

            Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

            >

            It looks like someone got rid of that reference

            to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took

            until 1988!



            prometheus wrote:

            > >

            Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

            "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

            > >

            "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

            The world is never without him, for the line

            of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

            ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

            from JUPITER."

            > >

            ME: WOW! JUPITER!

            > >

            When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

            in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

            the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

            > >

            People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

            to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

            JUPITER!"

            > >

            Where are the other RACES from?

            > >

            Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

            I don't think sooooo!!!

            > >

            What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

            from?

            > >

            Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

            Far Away? That sounds like t
            he makings for

            another Klemp story! Yawn!

            > >

            Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

            Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

            Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

            covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

            > >

            This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

            question to the inner" works in Eckankar!

            > >

            Prometheus

            > >

            P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

            just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

            Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

            too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

            we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

            aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

            > >

            Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

            the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

            of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

            for his contradictions of information? Or, does

            Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

            and is more focused upon those Souls residing

            on the Inner Planes? LOL!

            > >

            I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

            sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

            Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

            it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

            by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
          • etznab@aol.com
            About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or something he heard / read? For some reason I thought
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell
              got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or
              something he heard / read?

              For some reason I thought about Scientology. I then
              searched for keywords Scientology & from Jupiter.

              ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

              L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
              of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing" can
              raise your abilities to the point where you "know" something
              directly rather than having to discover it or learn it. He spoke
              authoritatively about life in the solar system. He claimed that
              Jupiter was inhabited by people who looked like Eskimos.
              You can hear him say it at:

              http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

              http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

              Coincidence?

              I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
              certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
              believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
              writers for a time.

              Etznab





              -----Original Message-----
              From: etznab@...
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:04 pm
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From
              JUPITER!








              Prometheus,



              You illustrated:



              I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

              5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

              1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

              that man was "placed here by colonists

              from JUPITER." This is20another dirty little

              secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

              Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

              are expected to "serve."



              That was a good point, I thought. Because

              legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

              of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

              in the beginning, they seep in over time when

              people speculate about what they read, and /

              or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

              (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

              organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

              when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

              actually happened I believe people have every

              right to challenge such allegations.



              Here are some examples. The early manu-

              scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

              Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

              1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

              by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



              These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

              not because I absolutely know all the details -

              but because the subject is "suspicious" and

              /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



              Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

              Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

              manuscripts were reportedly written.



              In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

              0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



              In one of your past posts (I don't have the #=0
              D

              or date) you wrote:



              "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

              his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

              back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

              was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



              I think that information was mentioned in Ford

              Johnson's book, too.



              Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

              the year 2000:



              ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

              did nothing with the book until he offered it to

              Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

              With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

              ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

              Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

              didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

              Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

              writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

              published until 1970."



              [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



              I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

              cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

              them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

              Singh.



              Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

              Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

              Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

              wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

              by Rebazar T
              arzs to Paul Twitchell.



              =0

              A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

              since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

              scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

              terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

              reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

              And it might possibly have been in the possession

              of Eckankar for a number of years.



              According to Kirpal Singh?



              "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

              The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

              ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

              He changed that book before printing; where he men-

              tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



              My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

              dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

              MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

              THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

              BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

              THAT NAME!



              Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

              manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it

              has the manuscript in its possession.



              There has been controversy over when the name of

              Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

              I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

              illustrated Rebazar Tarzs h
              istory prior to that, where is

              the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

              manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

              given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

              it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

              If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

              it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

              came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



              *************************************************************



              Those were examples because I have mostly seen

              the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

              have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



              If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

              that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

              does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

              have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

              the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



              I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

              One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

              in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



              Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

              (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

              Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

              Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

              have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

              that path in 1963. So ...?




              Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

              have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

              Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

              name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



              I have asked ab

              out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

              Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

              Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

              ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



              Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

              to have the truth.



              I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



              Etznab



              -----Original Message-----

              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

              Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm

              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!



              Hello All,



              I thought I'd bring this back for



              another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas



              Ever to mention the Jupiter and



              Venus connection with the EK



              Masters when speaking to seekers?



              Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas



              ever to mention the lifetime "service"



              requirement to new seekers? No,



              again! I wonder, why Not? Too



              much Truth... they'd get spiritual



              indigestion!!!



              - Aryans Are Fr
              om JUPITER! -



              Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



              "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING



              1984 writes:



              "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,



              The world is never without him, for the line



              of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



              ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



              from JUPITER."



              Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods



              (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D



              Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



              Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from



              Clarion! Klemp even has this planet



              mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



              "CLARION. A planet where higher



              evolved Souls are living to help carry



              on the work of GOD throughout the



              universe."



              Etznab wrote:



              More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



              "Eckankar was brought here from Venus



              by a little known race which is living in



              Agam Des, and whom we know as the



              Eshwar Khanewale [last two words



              in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.



              These beings are members of the Ancient



              Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.



              They attained their name, the god-eaters,



              from the fact that they absorb cosmic



              energies instead of assimilating plants



              and other20foods." [my brackets]



              Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,



              Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,



              p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



              ******************************************



              prometheus wrote:



              >



              Klemp is a scammer and his followers



              are gullible New Age wannabes!



              >



              How can rational and intelligent people



              believe in this crap! Most ECKists came



              from orthodox religions that taught



              similar fiction and myth. And, these



              Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the



              New Age ones have complex dogmas



              and glowing "spiritual" test

              imonials



              of miracles, visitations by angels and/or



              Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



              >



              All religions rely upon the current



              LEADER's ability to control and manipulate



              the imaginations of his believers!



              >



              I'm still wondering how Klemp can say



              that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED



              HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"



              when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



              "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL



              Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD



              through the worlds, through the Planes



              and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds



              =0
              Aof the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.



              At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds



              of matter--some of the newly formed



              planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and



              THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little



              world of EARTH.



              Many CAME to the EARTH planet and



              formed the consciousness of man in



              the flesh temple of the human body,



              to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,



              and take up the burdens of karma until



              at last, one day, each would be ready



              to return to the heavenly home." [end]



              I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



              5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



              1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



              that man was "placed here by colonists



              from JUPITER." This is another dirty little



              secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



              Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists



              are expected to "serve."



              >



              Here's an interesting definition from



              Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



              >



              "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE



              which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN



              of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM



              was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the



              FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of



              the RACES OF
              MAN upon EARTH."



              >



              It's true that Twitchell was a professional



              liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit



              stole the words and ideas of others without



              giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories



              of spiritual experiences from chelas written



              in Initiate Reports and letters in order to



              use these as "inspiration" for his books that



              he receives 50% royalties on!



              >



              Prometheus



              >



              ************************************************



              ETZNAB WROTE:



              Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up



              when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone



              mistranslated it to begin with.



              >



              "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and



              all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under



              the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of



              years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the



              empire throughout the world. [....]"



              >



              [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



              Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,



              1986, p. 97 ]



              >



              0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all



              its colonial empire came about by gas po
              ckets under the



              crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands



              of years ago. [....]"



              >



              [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



              Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]



              >



              It looks like someone got rid of that reference



              to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took



              until 1988!



              prometheus wrote:



              > >



              Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



              "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



              > >



              "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.



              The world is never without him, for the line



              of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



              ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



              from JUPITER."



              > >



              ME: WOW! JUPITER!



              > >



              When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"



              in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is



              the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



              > >



              People in this Current ROOT RACE, according



              to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from



              JUPITER!"



              > >



              Where are the other RACES from?



              > >



              Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?



              I don't think sooooo!!!
              =0
              A


              > >



              What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES



              from?



              > >



              Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far



              Far Away? That sounds like t

              he makings for



              another Klemp story! Yawn!



              > >



              Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that



              Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi



              Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was



              covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



              > >



              This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your



              question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



              > >



              Prometheus



              > >



              P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or



              just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the



              Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter



              too, or were they from somewhere else? Did



              we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we



              aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



              > >



              Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All



              the Universes (Klemp) have access to more



              of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)



              for his contradictions of information? Or, does



              Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)


              0A
              and is more focused upon those Souls residing



              on the Inner Planes? LOL!



              > >



              I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound



              sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield



              Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could



              it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced



              by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Etznab, At one time Twitchell was a high ranking member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron was his original source of compiled info on Jupiter. Thus, this
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Etznab,
                At one time Twitchell was a high ranking
                member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                was his original source of "compiled" info
                on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's
                handed-down source since he tends to use
                other people (usually dead) as inspiration
                for his "EK wisdom."

                As far as Marman goes... he speculates...
                a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!

                Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who
                inspired him to take his piles of "research"
                and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963
                when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame
                GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's
                had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's
                kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must
                be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role
                by thinking she'd helped people who were
                desperate to believe in something more than
                what they had with their former orthodox
                religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and
                other cult-like religions can say and do the
                same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent
                than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's
                new buds. Gail should do the right thing and
                jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could
                even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and
                post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or
                Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to
                clear her conscience and protect those Souls
                whom she helped to delude.

                BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say
                that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang
                manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.
                Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/
                written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,
                a book of poetry?

                Prometheus

                Etznab wrote:
                About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul
                Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual
                experience? or something he heard / read?

                For some reason I thought about Scientology.
                I then searched for keywords Scientology &
                from Jupiter.

                ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"
                can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"
                something directly rather than having to discover it
                or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the
                solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited
                by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him
                say it at:

                http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                Coincidence?

                I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                writers for a time.

                Etznab



                Prometheus,
                You illustrated:

                I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                that man was "placed here by colonists

                from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                are expected to "serve."


                That was a good point, I thought. Because

                legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                people speculate about what they read, and /

                or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                actually happened I believe people have every

                right to challenge such allegations.


                Here are some examples. The early manu-

                scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                not because I absolutely know all the details -

                but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                manuscripts were reportedly written.



                In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                In one of your past posts (I don't have the #

                or date) you wrote:



                "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                Johnson's book, too.



                Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                the year 2000:



                ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                published until 1970."



                [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                Singh.



                Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.


                Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                And it might possibly have been in the possession

                of Eckankar for a number of years.



                According to Kirpal Singh?



                "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                THAT NAME!



                Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,

                if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                There has been controversy over when the name of

                Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is

                the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                *************************************************************



                Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                that path in 1963. So ...?



                Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                to have the truth.



                I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                Etznab
              • etznab@aol.com
                Prometheus, I ve often wondered about Gail & Patti - ever since I started researching & posting as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was it 2005-2007? I think
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Prometheus,

                  I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                  ever since I started researching & posting
                  as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                  it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                  around there.

                  It's a big question mark, to me, about
                  whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                  with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                  for so many years? However, I don't think
                  Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                  mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                  she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                  believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                  she was not any longer active. Instead of
                  going into the details about this, my recoll-
                  ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                  the story in her own time, in her own way.

                  About how many books Paul Twitchell
                  finished before 1966, I think I see your
                  point.

                  Etznab


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                  JUPITER!








                  Hello Etznab,

                  At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                  member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                  was his original source of "compiled" info

                  on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                  handed-down source since he tends to use

                  other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                  for his "EK wisdom."



                  As far as Marman goes...
                  he speculates...

                  a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                  Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                  inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                  and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                  when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                  GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                  had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                  kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                  be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                  by thinking she'd helped people who were

                  desperate to believe in something more than

                  what they had with their former orthodox

                  religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                  other cult-like religions can say and do the

                  same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                  than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                  new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                  jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                  even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                  post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                  Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                  clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                  whom she helped to delude.



                  BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                  that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                  manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                  Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                  written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                  a book of poetry?
                  0D


                  Prometheus



                  Etznab wrote:

                  About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                  Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                  experience? or something he heard / read?



                  For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                  I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                  from Jupiter.



                  ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                  L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                  of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                  can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                  something directly rather than having to discover it

                  or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                  solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                  by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                  say it at:



                  http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                  http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                  Coincidence?



                  I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                  certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                  believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                  writers for a time.



                  Etznab



                  Prometheus,

                  You illustrated:



                  I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                  5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                  1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                  that man was "placed here by colonists



                  from JUPITER." This is another dirty little




                  secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                  Another dirty little secret is that ECKists



                  are expected to "serve."



                  That was a good point, I thought. Because



                  legends, myths, fables and folktales are part



                  of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not



                  in the beginning, they seep in over time when



                  people speculate about what they read, and /



                  or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo



                  (man-made) religion / history are a part of the



                  organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However



                  when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &



                  actually happened I believe people have every



                  right to challenge such allegations.



                  Here are some examples. The early manu-



                  scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The



                  Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later



                  1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books



                  by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                  These are examples about truth vs. fiction -



                  not because I absolutely know all the details -



                  but because the subject is "suspicious" and



                  /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                  Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal



                  Singh round about the mid 50s when the two



                  manuscripts were reportedly written.

                  0A

                  In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his



                  "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                  In one of your past posts (I don't have the #



                  or date) you wrote:



                  "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on



                  his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came



                  back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second



                  was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                  I think that information was mentioned in Ford



                  Johnson's book, too.



                  Consider what Doug Marman gave back around



                  the year 2000:



                  ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but



                  did nothing with the book until he offered it to



                  Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues



                  With The Master around 1956, from the refer-



                  ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.



                  Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but



                  didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion



                  Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's



                  writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't



                  published until 1970."



                  [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                  http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                  I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-



                  cause Paul includes him in the two book
                  s. One of



                  them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal



                  Singh.



                  Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal



                  Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in



                  Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson



                  wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"



                  by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.



                  Although I don't absolutely know all the details,



                  since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-



                  scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar



                  terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh



                  reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.



                  And it might possibly have been in the possession



                  of Eckankar for a number of years.



                  According to Kirpal Singh?



                  "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,



                  The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-



                  ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.



                  He changed that book before printing; where he men-



                  tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                  http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                  My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh



                  dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.



                  MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED



                  THE TIGER'S FAN
                  G MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS



                  BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY



                  THAT NAME!



                  Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early



                  manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,



                  if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                  There has been controversy over when the name of



                  Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date



                  I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an



                  illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is



                  the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang



                  manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs



                  given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was



                  it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?



                  If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar



                  it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who



                  came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                  *************************************************************



                  Those were examples because I have mostly seen



                  the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't



                  have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                  If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,



                  that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs



                  does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I wo
                  uld



                  have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to



                  the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                  I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.



                  One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And



                  in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                  Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.



                  (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The



                  Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in



                  Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may



                  have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into



                  that path in 1963. So ...?



                  Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to



                  have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's



                  Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the



                  name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                  I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.



                  Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-



                  Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-



                  ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                  Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right



                  to have the truth.



                  I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                  Etznab








                  0D
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Etznab, I figured Patti had left EKankar since she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar Board the day after Klemp & his new Board went after Darwin. Joan
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 12, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Etznab,
                    I figured Patti had left EKankar since
                    she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar
                    Board the day after Klemp & his new Board
                    went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take
                    Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,
                    the same day as the resignation. Apparently
                    Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand
                    in the wings, and await, until opportunity
                    comes a knocking.

                    Prometheus


                    Prometheus,

                    I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                    ever since I started researching & posting
                    as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                    it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                    around there.

                    It's a big question mark, to me, about
                    whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                    with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                    for so many years? However, I don't think
                    Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                    mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                    she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                    believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                    she was not any longer active. Instead of
                    going into the details about this, my recoll-
                    ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                    the story in her own time, in her own way.

                    About how many books Paul Twitchell
                    finished before 1966, I think I see your
                    point.

                    Etznab


                    prometheus wrote:

                    Hello Etznab,

                    At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                    member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                    was his original source of "compiled" info

                    on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                    handed-down source since he tends to use

                    other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                    for his "EK wisdom."


                    As far as Marman goes... he speculates...

                    a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                    Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                    inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                    and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                    when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                    GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                    had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                    kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                    be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                    by thinking she'd helped people who were

                    desperate to believe in something more than

                    what they had with their former orthodox

                    religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                    other cult-like religions can say and do the

                    same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                    than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                    new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                    jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                    even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                    post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                    Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                    clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                    whom she helped to delude.



                    BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                    that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                    manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                    Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                    written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                    a book of poetry?



                    Prometheus



                    Etznab wrote:

                    About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                    Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                    experience? or something he heard / read?



                    For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                    I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                    from Jupiter.



                    ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                    L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                    of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                    can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                    something directly rather than having to discover it

                    or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                    solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                    by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                    say it at:



                    http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                    http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                    Coincidence?



                    I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                    certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                    believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                    writers for a time.



                    Etznab
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Prometheus, I wasn t aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I had the impression she was removed. Here is why: Another interesting development in the August 7
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Prometheus,

                      I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                      had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                      "Another interesting development in the August
                      7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                      of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                      Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                      of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                      resolution, summarily removed from this position
                      and told that

                      ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                      both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                      ediately. [....]

                      "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                      ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                      immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                      current term of Secretary."

                      [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                      A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234] 

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                      JUPITER!








                      Hi Etznab,

                      I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                      she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                      Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                      went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                      Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                      the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                      Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                      in the win
                      gs, and await, until opportunity

                      comes a knocking.



                      Prometheus



                      Prometheus,



                      I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                      ever since I started researching & posting

                      as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                      it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                      around there.



                      It's a big question mark, to me, about

                      whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                      with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                      for so many years? However, I don't think

                      Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                      mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                      she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                      believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                      she was not any longer active. Instead of

                      going into the details about this, my recoll-

                      ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                      the story in her own time, in her own way.



                      About how many books Paul Twitchell

                      finished before 1966, I think I see your

                      point.



                      Etznab



                      prometheus wrote:



                      Hello Etznab,



                      At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                      member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                      was his original source of "compiled" info



                      on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                      handed-down source since he tends to use



                      other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                      for his "EK wisdom."

                      0D

                      As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                      a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                      Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                      inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                      and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                      when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                      GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                      had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                      kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                      be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                      by thinking she'd helped people who were



                      desperate to believe in something more than



                      what they had with their former orthodox



                      religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                      other cult-like religions can say and do the



                      same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                      than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                      new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                      jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                      even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                      post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                      Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                      clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                      whom she helped to delude.



                      BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                      =0
                      A
                      that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                      manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                      Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                      written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                      a book of poetry?



                      Prometheus



                      Etznab wrote:



                      About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul



                      Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual



                      experience? or something he heard / read?



                      For some reason I thought about Scientology.



                      I then searched for keywords Scientology &



                      from Jupiter.



                      ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                      L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science



                      of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"



                      can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"



                      something directly rather than having to discover it



                      or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the



                      solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited



                      by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him



                      say it at:



                      http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                      http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                      Coincidence?



                      I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and



                      certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I



                      believe Twitchell and Hubbard were
                      both science fiction



                      writers for a time.



                      Etznab
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Etznab, If I could access the Truth-Seeker site I would show the minutes from the meeting where officers and trustees were appointed along with a long
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Etznab,
                        If I could access the Truth-Seeker
                        site I would show the minutes from
                        the meeting where officers and trustees
                        were appointed along with a long discussion
                        of what to do about Darwin. Patti was
                        appointed as Secretary during this very
                        long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.
                        A recess was taken and the meeting was
                        to resume the very next day.

                        However, Patti resigned the next day after
                        having the night to think or dream about
                        what was being done to Darwin by Klemp
                        and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan
                        documented the details differently, after
                        Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"
                        when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-
                        up began early on. A "resolution" was simply
                        done to officially accept Patti's resignation.
                        Another motion and "vote" was made into
                        a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty
                        position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman
                        to ask Patti how it went down, according to
                        her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

                        Prometheus
                        p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather
                        than take his word for what she has to say.


                        etznab wrote:

                        Prometheus,

                        I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                        had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                        "Another interesting development in the August
                        7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                        of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                        Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                        of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                        resolution, summarily removed from this position
                        and told that

                        ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                        both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                        ediately. [....]

                        "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                        ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                        immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                        current term of Secretary."

                        [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                        A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â

                        Etznab

                        Prometheus wrote:


                        Hi Etznab,

                        I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                        she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                        Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                        went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                        Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                        the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                        Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                        in the wings, and await, until opportunity

                        comes a knocking.



                        Prometheus



                        Prometheus,



                        I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                        ever since I started researching & posting

                        as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                        it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                        around there.



                        It's a big question mark, to me, about

                        whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                        with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                        for so many years? However, I don't think

                        Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                        mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                        she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                        believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                        she was not any longer active. Instead of

                        going into the details about this, my recoll-

                        ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                        the story in her own time, in her own way.



                        About how many books Paul Twitchell

                        finished before 1966, I think I see your

                        point.



                        Etznab



                        prometheus wrote:



                        Hello Etznab,



                        At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                        member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                        was his original source of "compiled" info



                        on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                        handed-down source since he tends to use



                        other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                        for his "EK wisdom."



                        As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                        a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                        Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                        inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                        and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                        when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                        GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                        had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                        kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                        be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                        by thinking she'd helped people who were



                        desperate to believe in something more than



                        what they had with their former orthodox



                        religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                        other cult-like religions can say and do the



                        same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                        than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                        new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                        jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                        even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                        post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                        Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                        clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                        whom she helped to delude.



                        BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                        =0
                        A
                        that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                        manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                        Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                        written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                        a book of poetry?



                        Prometheus
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        Prometheus, Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this what I had read. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 16, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Prometheus,

                          Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this
                          what I had read.

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                          Removed!








                          Hi Etznab,

                          If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                          site I would show the minutes from

                          the meeting where officers and trustees

                          were appointed along with a long discussion

                          of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                          appointed as Secretary during this very

                          long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                          A recess was taken and the meeting was

                          to resume the very next day.



                          However, Patti resigned the next day after

                          having the night to think or dream about

                          what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                          and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                          documented the details differently, after

                          Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                          when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                          up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                          done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                          Another motion and "vote" was made into

                          a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                          position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                          to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                          her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                          =0
                          APrometheus

                          p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                          than take his word for what she has to say.



                          etznab wrote:



                          Prometheus,



                          I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                          had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                          "Another interesting development in the August

                          7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                          of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                          Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                          of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                          resolution, summarily removed from this position

                          and told that



                          ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                          both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                          ediately. [....]



                          "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                          ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                          immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                          current term of Secretary."



                          [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                          A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                          Etznab



                          Prometheus wrote:



                          Hi Etznab,



                          I figured Patti had left EKankar since



                          she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                          Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                          went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                          Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                          the same day as th
                          e resignation. Apparently



                          Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                          in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                          comes a knocking.



                          Prometheus



                          Prometheus,



                          I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                          ever since I started researching & posting



                          as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                          it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                          around there.



                          It's a big question mark, to me, about



                          whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                          with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                          for so many years? However, I don't think



                          Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                          mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                          she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                          believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                          she was not any longer active. Instead of



                          going into the details about this, my recoll-



                          ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                          the story in her own time, in her own way.



                          About how many books Paul Twitchell



                          finished before 1966, I think I see your



                          point.



                          Etznab



                          prometheus wrote:



                          Hello Etznab,



                          At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                          member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                          0A


                          was his original source of "compiled" info



                          on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                          handed-down source since he tends to use



                          other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                          for his "EK wisdom."



                          As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                          a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                          Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                          inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                          and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                          when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                          GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                          had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                          kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                          be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                          by thinking she'd helped people who were



                          desperate to believe in something more than



                          what they had with their former orthodox



                          religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                          other cult-like religions can say and do the



                          same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                          than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                          new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                          jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                          even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                          post so
                          me tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                          Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                          clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                          whom she helped to delude.



                          BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                          =0

                          A

                          that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                          manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                          Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                          written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                          a book of poetry?



                          Prometheus
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          Something else for this thread. From The Truth-Seeker site. It doesn t have to do with the August 7th, 1983 meeting. Not unless that was the time when Patti
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 27, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Something else for this thread. From The
                            Truth-Seeker site.

                            It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                            1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                            time when Patti became not active. My
                            guess was it refers to some time later.

                            [....]

                            A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                            an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                            Freeman

                            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                            I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                            Doug's response:

                            "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                            fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                            not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                            rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                            http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                            I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                            a response, but I assume it was February
                            2004. The 16th?

                            Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                            Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                            until days later, but I think the link where he
                            did respond is currently not working.

                            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                            Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                            guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                            the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                            Forum link.

                            There are a number of links (more than a few)
                            on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                            the present time.

                            At any rate, according to D
                            oug (apparently)
                            Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                            at least.

                            I don't know when Patti became not active,
                            or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                            terminated or resigned from her position of
                            Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                            it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                            that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                            future wife.

                            Etznab





                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                            Removed!








                            Hi Etznab,

                            If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                            site I would show the minutes from

                            the meeting where officers and trustees

                            were appointed along with a long discussion

                            of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                            appointed as Secretary during this very

                            long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                            A recess was taken and the meeting was

                            to resume the very next day.



                            However, Patti resigned the next day after

                            having the night to think or dream about

                            what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                            and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                            documented the details differently, after

                            Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                            when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                            up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                            done to officiall
                            y accept Patti's resignation.

                            Another motion and "vote" was made into

                            a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                            position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                            to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                            her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                            Prometheus

                            p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                            than take his word for what she has to say.



                            etznab wrote:



                            Prometheus,



                            I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                            had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                            "Another interesting development in the August

                            7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                            of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                            Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                            of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                            resolution, summarily removed from this position

                            and told that



                            ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                            both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                            ediately. [....]



                            "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                            ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                            immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                            current term of Secretary."



                            [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                            A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                            Etznab



                            Prometheus wrote:



                            Hi Etznab,



                            I
                            figured Patti had left EKankar since



                            she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                            Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                            went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                            Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                            the same day as the resignation. Apparently



                            Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                            in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                            comes a knocking.



                            Prometheus



                            Prometheus,



                            I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                            ever since I started researching & posting



                            as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                            it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                            around there.



                            It's a big question mark, to me, about



                            whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                            with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                            for so many years? However, I don't think



                            Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                            mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                            she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                            believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                            she was not any longer active. Instead of



                            going into the details about this, my recoll-



                            ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                            the story in her own time, in her own way.



                            About how=2
                            0many books Paul Twitchell



                            finished before 1966, I think I see your



                            point.



                            Etznab



                            prometheus wrote:



                            Hello Etznab,



                            At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                            member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                            was his original source of "compiled" info



                            on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                            handed-down source since he tends to use



                            other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                            for his "EK wisdom."



                            As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                            a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                            Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                            inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                            and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                            when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                            GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                            had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                            kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                            be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                            by thinking she'd helped people who were



                            desperate to believe in something more than



                            what they had with their former orthodox



                            religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                            other cult-like religions can say and do the



                            same. Therefore, Gai
                            l is more the KAL agent



                            than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                            new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                            jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                            even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                            post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                            Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                            clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                            whom she helped to delude.



                            BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                            =0

                            A

                            that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                            manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                            Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                            written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                            a book of poetry?



                            Prometheus
                          • prometheus_973
                            Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of figured that Patti wasn t active in ECKankar since she was talking so highly about Ram Dass recently. And, since she
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 2, 2009
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                              Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of
                              figured that Patti wasn't active in ECKankar
                              since she was talking so highly about Ram
                              Dass recently. And, since she hasn't kept
                              her EK Membership current, this means
                              that her consciousness is now around
                              that of a current 2nd Initiate! Wow! From
                              8th to 2nd just because of a few bucks
                              ($$$)! Actually, would a real spiritual
                              "path" charge money to maintain one's
                              (Soul's) inner plane level of consciousness?
                              Well, yes! Because all of this (religions, etc.)
                              is of the physical and Not the spiritual.
                              That's why they sell books and other
                              materials and require "requested" donations!
                              The only "free lunch" (freedom) comes
                              when Soul eliminates the middleman!

                              Prometheus


                              Etznab wrote:
                              Something else for this thread. From The
                              Truth-Seeker site.

                              It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                              1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                              time when Patti became not active. My
                              guess was it refers to some time later.

                              [....]

                              A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                              an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                              Freeman

                              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                              I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                              Doug's response:

                              "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                              fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                              not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                              rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                              http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                              I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                              a response, but I assume it was February
                              2004. The 16th?

                              Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                              Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                              until days later, but I think the link where he
                              did respond is currently not working.

                              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                              Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                              guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                              the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                              Forum link.

                              There are a number of links (more than a few)
                              on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                              the present time.

                              At any rate, according to Doug (apparently)
                              Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                              at least.

                              I don't know when Patti became not active,
                              or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                              terminated or resigned from her position of
                              Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                              it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                              that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                              future wife.

                              Etznab



                              Hi Etznab,

                              If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                              site I would show the minutes from

                              the meeting where officers and trustees

                              were appointed along with a long discussion

                              of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                              appointed as Secretary during this very

                              long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                              A recess was taken and the meeting was

                              to resume the very next day.



                              However, Patti resigned the next day after

                              having the night to think or dream about

                              what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                              and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                              documented the details differently, after

                              Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                              when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                              up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                              done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                              Another motion and "vote" was made into

                              a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                              position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                              to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                              her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                              Prometheus

                              p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                              than take his word for what she has to say.
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