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H.I. Letter Sept. 2008

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  • drubezarne
    Here s the latest H.I. Letter for your amusement. It s still the same old line. Can you believe this is meant for people who are supposed to have achieved Self
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 8, 2008
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      Here's the latest H.I. Letter for your amusement. It's still the same
      old line. Can you believe this is meant for people who are supposed to
      have achieved Self Realization and getting close to God Realization?
      These letters are supposed to be so full of spiritual wisdom, lower
      initiates aren't allowed to see them. Give me a break! At the end, he
      shows his laziness by not even bothering to interpret the lessons.

      Have fun with this one. I can't wait to see your comments...

      Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

      It is always a pleasure to tell you about people who have met an ECK
      Master and how that contact raised their level of spiritual
      consciousness. Each story embodies a lesson. Whatever lesson each of
      you gleans from it may be worlds away from the insights of an¬other chela.
      So strap on your wings, and let's see where you fly!
      In the first instance, "Andy" tells how he found ECKANKAR a few short
      years ago, and the way it changed him. He had lived and worked in New
      York City for many years. Then 9/11 struck. A short while later, a
      second shock: he arrived at his workplace to find the doors padlocked.
      Out of business!
      Jobs were scarce; his savings ran out. Unable to pay rent, he was
      evicted from his apartment and lived in a homeless shelter. It was
      during these dark days that he found ECKANKAR.
      One night, Andy had a vivid dream. A stranger motioned to him, with a
      gentle wave of the hand, to follow him to paradise. Andy reports that
      this meet¬ing ignited a fireball in his stomach. Only a few days
      hence, he found a flyer on a bulletin board announcing an ECKANKAR
      event. ECKists there gave him a very warm welcome. He knew he was
      home; he had found what he had been searching for.
      The very next evening, Andy was off to the ECK center. The ECKists
      welcomed him with open arms. They invited him to view the videos and
      browse the library.
      A surprise awaited him. On a wall hung a picture of the man who had
      called to him in that dream.
      It was Fubbi Quantz! Most afternoons that summer, Andy saw himself
      visiting the ECK center.
      He says, "Although I found myself to be destitute for the first time
      in my life, I felt like the wealthiest man on earth!"
      Paradise had found him, he continues. The Living ECK Master had found
      him, and he had found himself. And so, Andy became a member of
      ECKANKAR. That was another big change. The next one put him on his
      feet financially again: he moved to Chicago. There, a job opened up.
      His ECKANKAR membership materials, along with his first discourse,
      soon came in the mail.
      Andy considers his new chela membership card to be his official birth
      certifi¬cate. And so it is.

      Now we will take a case from a side of service in ECKANKAR. Andy told
      us of his early days, when he first made contact with the teachings of
      Light and Sound. (Since then, he has begun to serve too. As a seeker,
      he was served. Now he serves others.)
      "Mel" is on the other end of the spectrum, in terms of service. He is
      a RESA.
      Shortly before he received news of his appointment, Mel, like Andy,
      had a vivid dream. He had, in this dream, gone to visit friends in a
      small town of 1,200. A town so small, he found it hard to believe he
      had actually lost his car. Curiosity intact, he began to explore the
      streets. He came upon a Middle Eastern bazaar. The place was teeming
      with shoppers, whom colorful vendors tried to attract with both
      everyday and exotic items.
      Mel continued his explorations. Soon his feet carried him to a large,
      spacious building, the noise of the bazaar faded in the distance. A
      bald man came out of the building. "I am so glad you are here," he
      said. "Come in, and I will show you what you can do to help."
      Yaubl Sacabi, for that was indeed Mel's host, showed him two very
      large, round, etched-bronze pieces of art. In the first was the figure
      of a man, arms and legs stretched out, a man detached from the world
      he lived in Self-Realization. The second piece of art revealed a man
      standing quietly in the worlds of God, ready and willing to serve as
      the ECK's will was to be done.
      This was God-Realization!
      Mel recognized that these two precise etchings showed so well the two
      main goals of every ECK chela.
      Yaubl said, "Would you deliver them for me?"
      As Mel was en route to make the delivery, he pondered the fact that
      every¬thing done in behalf of the ECK Masters was a sacred act.
      A man at the appointed place invited him in. Inside, on a table, stood
      a bronze sculpture of a man bound to confused and seemingly
      unconnected events. This man was clearly struggling. He was desperate
      to be free from that which bound him.
      "There is more," he said, "but I don't know how to find the next step."
      Mel then handed him Yaubl Sacabi's two gifts. The man was deeply
      touched. Mel left, but looking back, he saw the other looking at his
      "answers."
      There are several important lessons in this story too. I am sure you
      will catch them.

      Harold
    • Leanne Thompson
      ANyone have the password for the talks that are comming up with the real video stream?   Leanne ANyone have the password for the talks that are comming up
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 8, 2008
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        ANyone have the password for the talks that are comming up with the real video stream?
         
        Leanne

      • drubezarne
        Leanne Why bother? You re most likely only going to get rehashed stories that brainwashed eckists sent in. It s amazing that they charge $25 for Klemp s
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 9, 2008
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          Leanne

          Why bother? You're most likely only going to get rehashed stories that
          brainwashed eckists sent in. It's amazing that they charge $25 for
          Klemp's useless talks. He's gotten so lazy over the years that all he
          does is retell the stories and doesn't even bother trying to convey
          the meaning of them.

          Klemp tells us his spiritual name is Wah Z which means Secret
          Doctrine. Well, where is the secret doctrine? Look at his latest H.I.
          Letter. Does it contain a secret doctrine? No. It's the same old
          recycled junk reinforcing his Lord High Muckety-Muck position at the
          head of a mythical order of Eck Masters.

          If there was any spirituality in Eckankar, it left a long time ago.
          Now it's just an empty shell and shadow of its former self. You're
          more likely to get spiritual knowledge from reading one page from any
          of the following authors than the entire talk by Klemp. If anybody
          wants to add to the list that would be great.

          Julian P. Johnson
          Hazrat Inayat Khan
          Walter Russell
          Neville Goddard
          Joel Goldsmith
          Paul Brunton
          Shiv Dayal Singh
          Joseph Benner
          Sawan Singh
          Kirpal Singh
          Lama Anagarika Govinda

          Regards
          Liska



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
          <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
          >
          > ANyone have the password for the talks that are comming up with the
          real video stream?
          >  
          > Leanne
          >
        • Elizabeth
          Jed McKenna ... From: drubezarne Date: 9/9/2008 10:08:17 AM To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous]Pass word
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 9, 2008
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            Jed McKenna 
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            Date: 9/9/2008 10:08:17 AM
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous]Pass word for the talks?
             
            If there was any spirituality in Eckankar, it left a long time ago.
            Now it's just an empty shell and shadow of its former self. You're
            more likely to get spiritual knowledge from reading one page from any
            of the following authors than the entire talk by Klemp. If anybody
            wants to add to the list that would be great.
             
            Julian P. Johnson
            Hazrat Inayat Khan
            Walter Russell
            Neville Goddard
            Joel Goldsmith
            Paul Brunton
            Shiv Dayal Singh
            Joseph Benner
            Sawan Singh
            Kirpal Singh
            Lama Anagarika Govinda
             
            Regards
            Liska
             
          • al_radzik
            Harold Klemp is a dimwitted inarticulate bumbling nebbish. He lacks coherence and cohesion in his talks and his books. That sheepish little voice doesn t help
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 9, 2008
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              Harold Klemp is a dimwitted inarticulate bumbling nebbish. He lacks
              coherence and cohesion in his talks and his books. That sheepish
              little voice doesn't help either. And they call this dork
              the "Mahanta", the human embodiment of the ECK? Looks can be
              deceiving but after looking at Harry and listening to his monotone
              ramblings possessing absolutlely nothing of spiritual content, he
              needs to take the money he stole from Eckankar's members and go for
              a lap dance at a strip club while chugging Jack Daniels and smoking
              some high grade weed. That ought to put the little mouse in a
              different state of conciousness!

              Yow!!



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
              <drubezarne@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here's the latest H.I. Letter for your amusement. It's still the
              same
              > old line. Can you believe this is meant for people who are
              supposed to
              > have achieved Self Realization and getting close to God
              Realization?
              > These letters are supposed to be so full of spiritual wisdom, lower
              > initiates aren't allowed to see them. Give me a break! At the end,
              he
              > shows his laziness by not even bothering to interpret the lessons.
              >
              > Have fun with this one. I can't wait to see your comments...
              >
              > Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
              >
              > It is always a pleasure to tell you about people who have met an
              ECK
              > Master and how that contact raised their level of spiritual
              > consciousness. Each story embodies a lesson. Whatever lesson each
              of
              > you gleans from it may be worlds away from the insights of
              an¬other chela.
              > So strap on your wings, and let's see where you fly!
              > In the first instance, "Andy" tells how he found ECKANKAR a few
              short
              > years ago, and the way it changed him. He had lived and worked in
              New
              > York City for many years. Then 9/11 struck. A short while later, a
              > second shock: he arrived at his workplace to find the doors
              padlocked.
              > Out of business!
              > Jobs were scarce; his savings ran out. Unable to pay rent, he was
              > evicted from his apartment and lived in a homeless shelter. It was
              > during these dark days that he found ECKANKAR.
              > One night, Andy had a vivid dream. A stranger motioned to him,
              with a
              > gentle wave of the hand, to follow him to paradise. Andy reports
              that
              > this meet¬ing ignited a fireball in his stomach. Only a few days
              > hence, he found a flyer on a bulletin board announcing an ECKANKAR
              > event. ECKists there gave him a very warm welcome. He knew he was
              > home; he had found what he had been searching for.
              > The very next evening, Andy was off to the ECK center. The ECKists
              > welcomed him with open arms. They invited him to view the videos
              and
              > browse the library.
              > A surprise awaited him. On a wall hung a picture of the man who had
              > called to him in that dream.
              > It was Fubbi Quantz! Most afternoons that summer, Andy saw himself
              > visiting the ECK center.
              > He says, "Although I found myself to be destitute for the first
              time
              > in my life, I felt like the wealthiest man on earth!"
              > Paradise had found him, he continues. The Living ECK Master had
              found
              > him, and he had found himself. And so, Andy became a member of
              > ECKANKAR. That was another big change. The next one put him on his
              > feet financially again: he moved to Chicago. There, a job opened
              up.
              > His ECKANKAR membership materials, along with his first discourse,
              > soon came in the mail.
              > Andy considers his new chela membership card to be his official
              birth
              > certifi¬cate. And so it is.
              >
              > Now we will take a case from a side of service in ECKANKAR. Andy
              told
              > us of his early days, when he first made contact with the
              teachings of
              > Light and Sound. (Since then, he has begun to serve too. As a
              seeker,
              > he was served. Now he serves others.)
              > "Mel" is on the other end of the spectrum, in terms of service. He
              is
              > a RESA.
              > Shortly before he received news of his appointment, Mel, like Andy,
              > had a vivid dream. He had, in this dream, gone to visit friends in
              a
              > small town of 1,200. A town so small, he found it hard to believe
              he
              > had actually lost his car. Curiosity intact, he began to explore
              the
              > streets. He came upon a Middle Eastern bazaar. The place was
              teeming
              > with shoppers, whom colorful vendors tried to attract with both
              > everyday and exotic items.
              > Mel continued his explorations. Soon his feet carried him to a
              large,
              > spacious building, the noise of the bazaar faded in the distance. A
              > bald man came out of the building. "I am so glad you are here," he
              > said. "Come in, and I will show you what you can do to help."
              > Yaubl Sacabi, for that was indeed Mel's host, showed him two very
              > large, round, etched-bronze pieces of art. In the first was the
              figure
              > of a man, arms and legs stretched out, a man detached from the
              world
              > he lived in Self-Realization. The second piece of art revealed a
              man
              > standing quietly in the worlds of God, ready and willing to serve
              as
              > the ECK's will was to be done.
              > This was God-Realization!
              > Mel recognized that these two precise etchings showed so well the
              two
              > main goals of every ECK chela.
              > Yaubl said, "Would you deliver them for me?"
              > As Mel was en route to make the delivery, he pondered the fact that
              > every¬thing done in behalf of the ECK Masters was a sacred act.
              > A man at the appointed place invited him in. Inside, on a table,
              stood
              > a bronze sculpture of a man bound to confused and seemingly
              > unconnected events. This man was clearly struggling. He was
              desperate
              > to be free from that which bound him.
              > "There is more," he said, "but I don't know how to find the next
              step."
              > Mel then handed him Yaubl Sacabi's two gifts. The man was deeply
              > touched. Mel left, but looking back, he saw the other looking at
              his
              > "answers."
              > There are several important lessons in this story too. I am sure
              you
              > will catch them.
              >
              > Harold
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Liska, Thanks for posting Klemp s slanted interpretation to these two letters/Initiate Reports. It does seem odd that the one person is new to Eckankar. So,
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 9, 2008
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                Hi Liska,
                Thanks for posting Klemp's
                slanted interpretation to these
                two letters/Initiate Reports.

                It does seem odd that the one
                person is new to Eckankar. So,
                Why is it necessary to place
                testimonials of faith in the H.I.
                Letter? I guess it's to show the
                H.I.s that Eckankar really works
                and still works for some people...
                even a RESA (Mel)!

                I'll make more comments and give
                my perspective to Klemp's stories
                below.

                Prometheus

                drubezarne wrote:

                Here's the latest H.I. Letter for your
                amusement. It's still the same old line.
                Can you believe this is meant for people
                who are supposed to have achieved Self
                Realization and getting close to God
                Realization?

                These letters are supposed to be so full
                of spiritual wisdom, lower initiates aren't
                allowed to see them. Give me a break! At
                the end, he shows his laziness by not even
                bothering to interpret the lessons.

                Have fun with this one. I can't wait
                to see your comments...
                **********************************
                HK: 'Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

                It is always a pleasure to tell you about
                people who have met an ECK Master and
                how that contact raised their level of spiritual
                consciousness.

                Each story embodies a lesson. WHATEVER
                lesson each of you gleans from it may be
                worlds away from the insights of another
                chela.

                ME: This is quite a disclaimer isn't it!
                So, if a RESA gets a different INSIGHT
                than another RESA then that's okay?
                But, aren't these Mental Plane words
                and thoughts being used? And, aren't
                these "stories" being told actually just
                SUBJECTIVE experiences! It could be
                that these "stories" are fictional or are
                the delusions of a psychologically
                dysfunctional individual... like Klemp!


                HK: So strap on your wings, and let's
                see where you fly!

                ME: Chickens can't fly very far can they!
                ECKists thought they were eagles or eaglets
                before Klemp's "the Fox outside the ECK
                Henhouse" comment.

                HK: In the first instance, "Andy" tells how
                he found ECKANKAR a few short years ago,
                and the way it changed him. He had lived
                and worked in New York City for many years.
                Then 9/11 struck. A short while later, a
                second shock: he arrived at his workplace
                to find the doors padlocked. Out of business!

                ME: I'll bet losing a job happens to a lot
                of people. Look at what happened to those
                in the Twin Towers! Why didn't the All
                Powerful Mahanta protect them? If Fubbi
                can influence Columbus to find protein so
                that Europeans will have more time to contemplate
                then what has Klemp done on a grand scale
                to benefit humanity!

                HK: Jobs were scarce; his savings ran out.
                Unable to pay rent, he was evicted from
                his apartment and lived in a homeless
                shelter. It was during these dark days
                that he found ECKANKAR.

                ME: Was he required to pay the full annual
                membership donation? The key word here
                is DONATION. Therefore, anyone can GIVE
                any amount of money. If Not Eckankar can
                lose its TAX EXEMPT status. Of course, you
                won't get that next pink slip if you don't
                pay the expected coin AND do the service!

                HK: One night, Andy had a vivid dream.
                A stranger motioned to him, with a
                gentle wave of the hand, to follow him
                to paradise. Andy reports that this meeting
                ignited a fireball in his stomach. Only
                a few days hence, he found a flyer on
                a bulletin board announcing an ECKANKAR
                event. ECKists there gave him a very warm
                welcome. He knew he was home; he had
                found what he had been searching for.

                ME: That's odd! Andy doesn't give a
                description of this "stranger." Why is that?

                As for his stomach... maybe that was
                a warning from the real SPIRIT versus
                the distorted Eckankar (copyrighted)
                version called "eck."

                HK: The very next evening, Andy was
                off to the ECK center. The ECKists welcomed
                him with open arms. They invited him
                to view the videos and browse the library.

                ME: Andy was lucky(?) that he found
                some friendly faces. I always had to
                "suggest" that the presiding EK Cleric
                (and others) go over and talk to the
                newcomers and to get other H.I.s to
                do the same. I tried to touch base with
                everyone. The more active ECKists usually
                congregated around one another and
                chatted it up without paying attention
                to newbies, or to the seldom seen chelas.

                HK: A surprise awaited him. On a wall
                hung a picture of the man who had called
                to him in that dream. It was Fubbi Quantz!
                Most afternoons that summer, Andy saw
                himself visiting the ECK center.

                ME: It seems that Andy didn't have much
                of a life! I'm surprised that the NYC ECK
                Center was opened that often! Most aren't!
                Actually, 99% aren't open "most afternoons"
                in the Summer or during the rest of the year!

                HK: He says, "Although I found myself to
                be destitute for the first time in my life,
                I felt like the wealthiest man on earth!"

                ME: Hang onto that feeling, Andy, because
                Klemp will steal that, too, away from you.

                HK: Paradise had found him, he continues.
                The Living ECK Master had found him,
                and he had found himself. And so,
                Andy became a member of ECKANKAR.
                That was another big change. The next
                one put him on his feet financially again:
                he moved to Chicago. There, a job opened
                up. His ECKANKAR membership materials,
                along with his first discourse, soon came
                in the mail.

                ME: Doesn't Klemp's first sentence sound odd.
                What's with the "he continues?" Also, Klemp
                is saying that both "Paradise" and the "LEM"
                "had found him."

                HK: Andy considers his new chela
                membership card to be his official
                birth certificate. And so it is.

                ME: LOL! Try using that "ANNUAL"
                membership card in place of a birth
                certificate! Besides, when was this
                Soul born? Isn't that more important
                than a card or a certificate!

                HK: Now we will take a case from
                a side of SERVICE in ECKANKAR.
                Andy told us of his early days,
                when he first made contact with
                the teachings of Light and Sound.
                (Since then, he has begun to serve
                too. As a seeker, he was served.
                Now he serves others.)

                ME: So, Klemp is preparing us for
                a new story... one with a longtime
                ECKist who is in a big SERVICE and
                POWER position. I wonder if Andy
                was told that "service" (and more
                coin) will be expected of him before
                too long?

                HK: "Mel" is on the other end of
                the spectrum, in terms of service.
                He is a RESA.

                ME: Wait a minute Harry! In the
                beginning of this article you said
                it was a pleasure to tell about "people"
                who have met an ECK Master and
                how this "contact raised their level
                of spiritual consciousness." Isn't
                it possible that a lower initiate
                is Higher in consciousness than
                a High Initiate!

                Klemp has even stated: "It may
                surprise a FIFTH INITIATE to find
                that after several years of absence
                from discourse study, he has slipped
                back to the FOURTH LEVEL." [The
                Wisdom Notes. WINTER 1987]
                When did Klemp last write a discourse?
                Maybe by Not "writing" versus chelas
                Not "reading" a discourse that he, too,
                has "slipped" back... to the 7th level!

                HK: Shortly before he received news
                of his appointment, Mel, like Andy,
                had a vivid dream. He had, in this
                dream, gone to visit friends in a
                small town of 1,200. A town so
                small, he found it hard to believe
                he had actually lost his car. Curiosity
                intact, he began to explore the streets.
                He came upon a Middle Eastern bazaar.

                ME: But, did "Mel" realize that he was
                dreaming. Klemp only says that this
                was a "vivid" dream and not a "lucid"
                dream. Aren't 7ths, and RESAs especially,
                supposed to be far more aware and in
                total consciousness while dreaming!
                I wonder how many EK chelas lower
                in rank, as well as, non-ECKists have
                even greater dream experiences... millions!

                HK: The place was teeming with shoppers,
                whom colorful vendors tried to attract
                with both everyday and exotic items.

                ME: It would be nice to have more details
                of the colors and the items sold and of
                the smells and feeling etc.! Why aren't there
                more details if this is such a "vivid" dream.

                HK: Mel continued his explorations. Soon
                his feet carried him to a large, spacious
                building, the noise of the bazaar faded
                in the distance. A BALD man came out
                of the building. "I am so glad you are
                here," he said. "Come in, and I will show
                you what you can do to help."

                ME: Is every bald guy Yaubl? Oh wait,
                that other bald guy mentioned in the
                WINTER 1987 Wisdom Notes was SAT
                NAM!

                HK: Yaubl Sacabi, for that was indeed
                Mel's host, showed him two very large,
                round, etched-bronze pieces of art.

                ME: Well, since Yaubl hangs out at
                the Agam Des temple on the earth
                plane I can see that there would be
                physical possessions like bronze
                art.

                HK: In the FIRST was the figure of
                a man, arms and legs stretched out,
                a man detached from the world he
                lived in Self-Realization.

                The SECOND piece of art revealed a
                man standing quietly in the worlds
                of God, ready and willing to SERVE
                as the ECK's will was to be done.

                ME: Is this SERVICE thing something
                new? And, Why haven't EK artists,
                or Klemp, replicated these bronze
                etchings for the EK Museum? Maybe
                they will be on display at the 2008
                EWWS!

                HK: This was God-Realization! Mel
                recognized that these two precise
                etchings showed so well the two main
                goals of every ECK chela.

                ME: I would hope that a 7th initiate
                RESA would be able to figure out that
                SELF & GOD REALIZATION are GOALS.
                BUT, there's too much focus on these
                "Goals" and Not upon living life. Klemp
                is promoting SERVICE because he needs
                more money!

                BTW-The SECOND etching should have
                shown a man Jumping Off a Bridge!
                A third could have shown him Stripping
                at an Airport! And, doesn't the KAL
                control the Lower Worlds including
                Agam Des where Yaubl resides!

                HK: Yaubl said, "Would you deliver them
                for me?"

                ME: Will "MEL" be the next LEM/Mahanta?
                Yaubl is having Mel deliver GOD-REALIZATION
                to ECK Chelas instead of Klemp! After all,
                Yaubl is a senior member of the Vairagi
                Order while Klemp is the junior member!

                HK: As Mel was en route to make the
                delivery, he pondered the fact that
                everything done in behalf of the
                ECK Masters was a sacred act.

                ME: Let me get this right. Yaubl made
                the delivery, to Mel, of these "bronze-
                etchings" depicting the TWO "MAIN"
                GOALS for ECKists to experience/see
                GOD-REALIZATION (via Service).

                Next, MEL made the "delivery" in a letter/
                HIRO to Klemp and now Klemp is making
                another "delivery" via snail mail for his
                chelas to "see" and act upon. Catch-22!

                Does "Mel" really exist? This is just
                another scam by Klemp!

                Anyway, when these dreams always lead
                back to SERVICE (like sitting in a empty
                ECK Center for an Open House or doing
                an Intro to a few new people who never
                join) it shows people that Klemp is conning
                us. This has nothing to do with the real/
                original reasons for joining Eckankar in
                the first place! This kind of "Service" leads
                nowhere spiritually. It's what religions do!

                HK: A man at the appointed place
                invited him in. Inside, on a table,
                stood a bronze sculpture of a man
                bound to confused and seemingly
                unconnected events. This man
                was clearly struggling. He was
                desperate to be free from that which
                bound him.

                ME: Perhaps, it was the requirements
                of Klemp's Religious EK Hierarchy that
                "bound" him!

                I know that after I finally cut the ties
                and left Eckankar that I had several
                truly God-Realized experiences.

                The first removed what seemed like the
                weight of the world from my shoulders.
                The experience was of total, Soul, freedom!
                The clarity of mind and the insights given
                were incredible! And, later, came contentment
                of a level that was of the No-Thing Universe
                and of just BEING. Anyway, when one throws
                out those EK Initiations, Guidelines, Zoas,
                spoken & unspoken rules and procedures
                and requirements for this or that does one
                finally see the garbage that accumulated
                over the years!

                HK: "There is more," he said, "but I don't
                know how to find the next step."
                Mel then handed him Yaubl Sacabi's
                two gifts. The man was deeply touched.
                Mel left, but looking back, he saw the
                other looking at his "ANSWERS."

                ME: LOL! Mel hands this guy two bronze
                etchings that are supposed to depict
                Self & God Realization. I guess that the
                next step was for the guy to Join Eckankar
                and Pay his Annual Membership...
                to study discourses, buy more and more
                books, and do the Service and after about
                15-18 years they may become a 5th
                Initiate. But when does an ECKist reach
                GOD-REALIZATION? At what "level" does
                a RESA become God-Realized? Klemp's
                EK Lexicon shows that a NINTH is now
                on the AGAM LOK where AGAM PURUSHA
                rules... and this is the SUGMAD.

                HK: There are several important lessons
                in this story too. I am sure you will CATCH
                them."

                ME: The only thing to "catch" is Klemp's
                CATCH-22 spin! There is more given for
                the Lower Level Initiates in The Mystic World!
                Klemp cannot write anything on his own.
                He cannot use his own stories and his own
                words... like Twitchell. Klemp quotes from
                the Shariyats, the Christian Bible, or from
                Rumi, and others. But what Spiritual Wisdom
                is actually attributed to Klemp? Where's
                Klemp's poetry or Shariyat? He's empty
                of anything "spiritual" and uses the words
                and stories of others in order to remain in
                office! He's the Top Dog and no one is to
                question his nonsense, and HK never takes
                responsibility! This is the way of the narcissist!

                Prometheus
              • drubezarne
                Hi Prometheus Nice work interpreting Harold Klemp s mess. I thought Klemp s tone was very condescending - as if he was addressing his followers as ignorant
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 9, 2008
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                  Hi Prometheus
                  Nice work interpreting Harold Klemp's mess. I thought Klemp's tone was
                  very condescending - as if he was addressing his followers as ignorant
                  children. Did anybody else see it that way? Maybe he actually believes
                  his own lies and really regards himself as God incarnated. If so,
                  we're dealing with a very delusional person.

                  Regards
                  Liska

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Liska,
                  > Thanks for posting Klemp's
                  > slanted interpretation to these
                  > two letters/Initiate Reports.
                  >
                  > It does seem odd that the one
                  > person is new to Eckankar. So,
                  > Why is it necessary to place
                  > testimonials of faith in the H.I.
                  > Letter? I guess it's to show the
                  > H.I.s that Eckankar really works
                  > and still works for some people...
                  > even a RESA (Mel)!
                  >
                  > I'll make more comments and give
                  > my perspective to Klemp's stories
                  > below.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > drubezarne wrote:
                  >
                  > Here's the latest H.I. Letter for your
                  > amusement. It's still the same old line.
                  > Can you believe this is meant for people
                  > who are supposed to have achieved Self
                  > Realization and getting close to God
                  > Realization?
                  >
                  > These letters are supposed to be so full
                  > of spiritual wisdom, lower initiates aren't
                  > allowed to see them. Give me a break! At
                  > the end, he shows his laziness by not even
                  > bothering to interpret the lessons.
                  >
                  > Have fun with this one. I can't wait
                  > to see your comments...
                  > **********************************
                  > HK: 'Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
                  >
                  > It is always a pleasure to tell you about
                  > people who have met an ECK Master and
                  > how that contact raised their level of spiritual
                  > consciousness.
                  >
                  > Each story embodies a lesson. WHATEVER
                  > lesson each of you gleans from it may be
                  > worlds away from the insights of another
                  > chela.
                  >
                  > ME: This is quite a disclaimer isn't it!
                  > So, if a RESA gets a different INSIGHT
                  > than another RESA then that's okay?
                  > But, aren't these Mental Plane words
                  > and thoughts being used? And, aren't
                  > these "stories" being told actually just
                  > SUBJECTIVE experiences! It could be
                  > that these "stories" are fictional or are
                  > the delusions of a psychologically
                  > dysfunctional individual... like Klemp!
                  >
                  >
                  > HK: So strap on your wings, and let's
                  > see where you fly!
                  >
                  > ME: Chickens can't fly very far can they!
                  > ECKists thought they were eagles or eaglets
                  > before Klemp's "the Fox outside the ECK
                  > Henhouse" comment.
                  >
                  > HK: In the first instance, "Andy" tells how
                  > he found ECKANKAR a few short years ago,
                  > and the way it changed him. He had lived
                  > and worked in New York City for many years.
                  > Then 9/11 struck. A short while later, a
                  > second shock: he arrived at his workplace
                  > to find the doors padlocked. Out of business!
                  >
                  > ME: I'll bet losing a job happens to a lot
                  > of people. Look at what happened to those
                  > in the Twin Towers! Why didn't the All
                  > Powerful Mahanta protect them? If Fubbi
                  > can influence Columbus to find protein so
                  > that Europeans will have more time to contemplate
                  > then what has Klemp done on a grand scale
                  > to benefit humanity!
                  >
                  > HK: Jobs were scarce; his savings ran out.
                  > Unable to pay rent, he was evicted from
                  > his apartment and lived in a homeless
                  > shelter. It was during these dark days
                  > that he found ECKANKAR.
                  >
                  > ME: Was he required to pay the full annual
                  > membership donation? The key word here
                  > is DONATION. Therefore, anyone can GIVE
                  > any amount of money. If Not Eckankar can
                  > lose its TAX EXEMPT status. Of course, you
                  > won't get that next pink slip if you don't
                  > pay the expected coin AND do the service!
                  >
                  > HK: One night, Andy had a vivid dream.
                  > A stranger motioned to him, with a
                  > gentle wave of the hand, to follow him
                  > to paradise. Andy reports that this meeting
                  > ignited a fireball in his stomach. Only
                  > a few days hence, he found a flyer on
                  > a bulletin board announcing an ECKANKAR
                  > event. ECKists there gave him a very warm
                  > welcome. He knew he was home; he had
                  > found what he had been searching for.
                  >
                  > ME: That's odd! Andy doesn't give a
                  > description of this "stranger." Why is that?
                  >
                  > As for his stomach... maybe that was
                  > a warning from the real SPIRIT versus
                  > the distorted Eckankar (copyrighted)
                  > version called "eck."
                  >
                  > HK: The very next evening, Andy was
                  > off to the ECK center. The ECKists welcomed
                  > him with open arms. They invited him
                  > to view the videos and browse the library.
                  >
                  > ME: Andy was lucky(?) that he found
                  > some friendly faces. I always had to
                  > "suggest" that the presiding EK Cleric
                  > (and others) go over and talk to the
                  > newcomers and to get other H.I.s to
                  > do the same. I tried to touch base with
                  > everyone. The more active ECKists usually
                  > congregated around one another and
                  > chatted it up without paying attention
                  > to newbies, or to the seldom seen chelas.
                  >
                  > HK: A surprise awaited him. On a wall
                  > hung a picture of the man who had called
                  > to him in that dream. It was Fubbi Quantz!
                  > Most afternoons that summer, Andy saw
                  > himself visiting the ECK center.
                  >
                  > ME: It seems that Andy didn't have much
                  > of a life! I'm surprised that the NYC ECK
                  > Center was opened that often! Most aren't!
                  > Actually, 99% aren't open "most afternoons"
                  > in the Summer or during the rest of the year!
                  >
                  > HK: He says, "Although I found myself to
                  > be destitute for the first time in my life,
                  > I felt like the wealthiest man on earth!"
                  >
                  > ME: Hang onto that feeling, Andy, because
                  > Klemp will steal that, too, away from you.
                  >
                  > HK: Paradise had found him, he continues.
                  > The Living ECK Master had found him,
                  > and he had found himself. And so,
                  > Andy became a member of ECKANKAR.
                  > That was another big change. The next
                  > one put him on his feet financially again:
                  > he moved to Chicago. There, a job opened
                  > up. His ECKANKAR membership materials,
                  > along with his first discourse, soon came
                  > in the mail.
                  >
                  > ME: Doesn't Klemp's first sentence sound odd.
                  > What's with the "he continues?" Also, Klemp
                  > is saying that both "Paradise" and the "LEM"
                  > "had found him."
                  >
                  > HK: Andy considers his new chela
                  > membership card to be his official
                  > birth certificate. And so it is.
                  >
                  > ME: LOL! Try using that "ANNUAL"
                  > membership card in place of a birth
                  > certificate! Besides, when was this
                  > Soul born? Isn't that more important
                  > than a card or a certificate!
                  >
                  > HK: Now we will take a case from
                  > a side of SERVICE in ECKANKAR.
                  > Andy told us of his early days,
                  > when he first made contact with
                  > the teachings of Light and Sound.
                  > (Since then, he has begun to serve
                  > too. As a seeker, he was served.
                  > Now he serves others.)
                  >
                  > ME: So, Klemp is preparing us for
                  > a new story... one with a longtime
                  > ECKist who is in a big SERVICE and
                  > POWER position. I wonder if Andy
                  > was told that "service" (and more
                  > coin) will be expected of him before
                  > too long?
                  >
                  > HK: "Mel" is on the other end of
                  > the spectrum, in terms of service.
                  > He is a RESA.
                  >
                  > ME: Wait a minute Harry! In the
                  > beginning of this article you said
                  > it was a pleasure to tell about "people"
                  > who have met an ECK Master and
                  > how this "contact raised their level
                  > of spiritual consciousness." Isn't
                  > it possible that a lower initiate
                  > is Higher in consciousness than
                  > a High Initiate!
                  >
                  > Klemp has even stated: "It may
                  > surprise a FIFTH INITIATE to find
                  > that after several years of absence
                  > from discourse study, he has slipped
                  > back to the FOURTH LEVEL." [The
                  > Wisdom Notes. WINTER 1987]
                  > When did Klemp last write a discourse?
                  > Maybe by Not "writing" versus chelas
                  > Not "reading" a discourse that he, too,
                  > has "slipped" back... to the 7th level!
                  >
                  > HK: Shortly before he received news
                  > of his appointment, Mel, like Andy,
                  > had a vivid dream. He had, in this
                  > dream, gone to visit friends in a
                  > small town of 1,200. A town so
                  > small, he found it hard to believe
                  > he had actually lost his car. Curiosity
                  > intact, he began to explore the streets.
                  > He came upon a Middle Eastern bazaar.
                  >
                  > ME: But, did "Mel" realize that he was
                  > dreaming. Klemp only says that this
                  > was a "vivid" dream and not a "lucid"
                  > dream. Aren't 7ths, and RESAs especially,
                  > supposed to be far more aware and in
                  > total consciousness while dreaming!
                  > I wonder how many EK chelas lower
                  > in rank, as well as, non-ECKists have
                  > even greater dream experiences... millions!
                  >
                  > HK: The place was teeming with shoppers,
                  > whom colorful vendors tried to attract
                  > with both everyday and exotic items.
                  >
                  > ME: It would be nice to have more details
                  > of the colors and the items sold and of
                  > the smells and feeling etc.! Why aren't there
                  > more details if this is such a "vivid" dream.
                  >
                  > HK: Mel continued his explorations. Soon
                  > his feet carried him to a large, spacious
                  > building, the noise of the bazaar faded
                  > in the distance. A BALD man came out
                  > of the building. "I am so glad you are
                  > here," he said. "Come in, and I will show
                  > you what you can do to help."
                  >
                  > ME: Is every bald guy Yaubl? Oh wait,
                  > that other bald guy mentioned in the
                  > WINTER 1987 Wisdom Notes was SAT
                  > NAM!
                  >
                  > HK: Yaubl Sacabi, for that was indeed
                  > Mel's host, showed him two very large,
                  > round, etched-bronze pieces of art.
                  >
                  > ME: Well, since Yaubl hangs out at
                  > the Agam Des temple on the earth
                  > plane I can see that there would be
                  > physical possessions like bronze
                  > art.
                  >
                  > HK: In the FIRST was the figure of
                  > a man, arms and legs stretched out,
                  > a man detached from the world he
                  > lived in Self-Realization.
                  >
                  > The SECOND piece of art revealed a
                  > man standing quietly in the worlds
                  > of God, ready and willing to SERVE
                  > as the ECK's will was to be done.
                  >
                  > ME: Is this SERVICE thing something
                  > new? And, Why haven't EK artists,
                  > or Klemp, replicated these bronze
                  > etchings for the EK Museum? Maybe
                  > they will be on display at the 2008
                  > EWWS!
                  >
                  > HK: This was God-Realization! Mel
                  > recognized that these two precise
                  > etchings showed so well the two main
                  > goals of every ECK chela.
                  >
                  > ME: I would hope that a 7th initiate
                  > RESA would be able to figure out that
                  > SELF & GOD REALIZATION are GOALS.
                  > BUT, there's too much focus on these
                  > "Goals" and Not upon living life. Klemp
                  > is promoting SERVICE because he needs
                  > more money!
                  >
                  > BTW-The SECOND etching should have
                  > shown a man Jumping Off a Bridge!
                  > A third could have shown him Stripping
                  > at an Airport! And, doesn't the KAL
                  > control the Lower Worlds including
                  > Agam Des where Yaubl resides!
                  >
                  > HK: Yaubl said, "Would you deliver them
                  > for me?"
                  >
                  > ME: Will "MEL" be the next LEM/Mahanta?
                  > Yaubl is having Mel deliver GOD-REALIZATION
                  > to ECK Chelas instead of Klemp! After all,
                  > Yaubl is a senior member of the Vairagi
                  > Order while Klemp is the junior member!
                  >
                  > HK: As Mel was en route to make the
                  > delivery, he pondered the fact that
                  > everything done in behalf of the
                  > ECK Masters was a sacred act.
                  >
                  > ME: Let me get this right. Yaubl made
                  > the delivery, to Mel, of these "bronze-
                  > etchings" depicting the TWO "MAIN"
                  > GOALS for ECKists to experience/see
                  > GOD-REALIZATION (via Service).
                  >
                  > Next, MEL made the "delivery" in a letter/
                  > HIRO to Klemp and now Klemp is making
                  > another "delivery" via snail mail for his
                  > chelas to "see" and act upon. Catch-22!
                  >
                  > Does "Mel" really exist? This is just
                  > another scam by Klemp!
                  >
                  > Anyway, when these dreams always lead
                  > back to SERVICE (like sitting in a empty
                  > ECK Center for an Open House or doing
                  > an Intro to a few new people who never
                  > join) it shows people that Klemp is conning
                  > us. This has nothing to do with the real/
                  > original reasons for joining Eckankar in
                  > the first place! This kind of "Service" leads
                  > nowhere spiritually. It's what religions do!
                  >
                  > HK: A man at the appointed place
                  > invited him in. Inside, on a table,
                  > stood a bronze sculpture of a man
                  > bound to confused and seemingly
                  > unconnected events. This man
                  > was clearly struggling. He was
                  > desperate to be free from that which
                  > bound him.
                  >
                  > ME: Perhaps, it was the requirements
                  > of Klemp's Religious EK Hierarchy that
                  > "bound" him!
                  >
                  > I know that after I finally cut the ties
                  > and left Eckankar that I had several
                  > truly God-Realized experiences.
                  >
                  > The first removed what seemed like the
                  > weight of the world from my shoulders.
                  > The experience was of total, Soul, freedom!
                  > The clarity of mind and the insights given
                  > were incredible! And, later, came contentment
                  > of a level that was of the No-Thing Universe
                  > and of just BEING. Anyway, when one throws
                  > out those EK Initiations, Guidelines, Zoas,
                  > spoken & unspoken rules and procedures
                  > and requirements for this or that does one
                  > finally see the garbage that accumulated
                  > over the years!
                  >
                  > HK: "There is more," he said, "but I don't
                  > know how to find the next step."
                  > Mel then handed him Yaubl Sacabi's
                  > two gifts. The man was deeply touched.
                  > Mel left, but looking back, he saw the
                  > other looking at his "ANSWERS."
                  >
                  > ME: LOL! Mel hands this guy two bronze
                  > etchings that are supposed to depict
                  > Self & God Realization. I guess that the
                  > next step was for the guy to Join Eckankar
                  > and Pay his Annual Membership...
                  > to study discourses, buy more and more
                  > books, and do the Service and after about
                  > 15-18 years they may become a 5th
                  > Initiate. But when does an ECKist reach
                  > GOD-REALIZATION? At what "level" does
                  > a RESA become God-Realized? Klemp's
                  > EK Lexicon shows that a NINTH is now
                  > on the AGAM LOK where AGAM PURUSHA
                  > rules... and this is the SUGMAD.
                  >
                  > HK: There are several important lessons
                  > in this story too. I am sure you will CATCH
                  > them."
                  >
                  > ME: The only thing to "catch" is Klemp's
                  > CATCH-22 spin! There is more given for
                  > the Lower Level Initiates in The Mystic World!
                  > Klemp cannot write anything on his own.
                  > He cannot use his own stories and his own
                  > words... like Twitchell. Klemp quotes from
                  > the Shariyats, the Christian Bible, or from
                  > Rumi, and others. But what Spiritual Wisdom
                  > is actually attributed to Klemp? Where's
                  > Klemp's poetry or Shariyat? He's empty
                  > of anything "spiritual" and uses the words
                  > and stories of others in order to remain in
                  > office! He's the Top Dog and no one is to
                  > question his nonsense, and HK never takes
                  > responsibility! This is the way of the narcissist!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  If anybody wants to add to the list that would be great. There was an article in the Fall 2008 (Vol. 33, No.3) issue of Parabola [Man & Machine]. It was
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 9, 2008
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                    "If anybody wants to add to the list that would be great."

                    There was an article in the Fall 2008 (Vol. 33, No.3)
                    issue of Parabola [Man & Machine]. It was called: The
                    Indwelling Spirit (p. 62) by Sri Aurobindo. I thought the
                    article (From Sri Aurobindo, Vol. 12 [CWSA] (Essays
                    Divine and Human), pages 161-164. Reprinted by per-
                    mission) was a good read.

                    I believe this guy lived 1872-1950.

                    Etznab


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 9:08 am
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous]Pass word for the talks?



                    Leanne



                    Why bother? You're most likely only going to get rehashed stories that

                    brainwashed eckists sent in. It's amazing that they charge $25 for

                    Klemp's useless talks. He's gotten so lazy over the years that all he

                    does is retell the stories and doesn't even bother trying to convey

                    the meaning of them.



                    Klemp tells us his spiritual name is Wah Z which means Secret

                    Doctrine. Well, where is the secret doctrine? Look at his latest H.I.

                    Letter. Does it contain a secret doctrine? No. It's the same old

                    recycled junk reinforcing his Lord High Muckety-Muck position at the

                    head of a mythical order of Eck Masters.



                    If there was any spirituality in Eckankar, it left a long time ago.

                    Now it's just an empty shell and shadow of its former=2
                    0self. You're

                    more likely to get spiritual knowledge from reading one page from any

                    of the following authors than the entire talk by Klemp. If anybody

                    wants to add to the list that would be great.



                    Julian P. Johnson

                    Hazrat Inayat Khan

                    Walter Russell

                    Neville Goddard

                    Joel Goldsmith

                    Paul Brunton

                    Shiv Dayal Singh

                    Joseph Benner

                    Sawan Singh

                    Kirpal Singh

                    Lama Anagarika Govinda



                    Regards

                    Liska



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson

                    <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:

                    >

                    > ANyone have the password for the talks that are comming up with the

                    real video stream?

                    >  

                    > Leanne

                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Liska and All, When looking at Klemp s comments about his childhood and his ping- pong matches and jumping off that bridge, stripping at the airport and
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 9, 2008
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                      Hello Liska and All,
                      When looking at Klemp's comments
                      about his childhood and his ping-
                      pong matches and jumping off that
                      bridge, stripping at the airport and
                      choosing to go to a mental institution
                      it makes sense that he would, also,
                      choose to go to the 1971 EWWS instead
                      of to his father's funeral to console
                      his mother. And, Klemp made his young
                      daughter (about 8 years old) use and
                      maintain an old push mower in order
                      for her to have a small grass yard.
                      It's no wonder he has no relationship
                      with her and his three grandchildren.

                      Klemp is certainly a narcissist and that's
                      bad for those who come in close contact
                      with him when things don't go his way.
                      A narcissist is never wrong, never takes
                      responsibility, and never apologizes.
                      They attempt to manipulate and control
                      situations and people into thinking that
                      bad things are the fault of others. They are
                      good at playing the blame game. Narcissists
                      will seek out those that they can manipulate
                      more easily than others, especially, enablers.
                      They like to be admired and feel very clever
                      fooling people. They think they are more
                      intelligent, or street smart, than anyone else.
                      Narcissists will also show two faces to people.
                      As long as they are in control they are happy,
                      but when confronted or challenged they will
                      show their truer nasty side.

                      On top of this I believe that Klemp also
                      has some other personality disorders, as
                      well as, arrested development.

                      Do I think Klemp is delusional... YES!
                      Do I think he really knows that he's a
                      scammer... YES again! I think he half
                      believed the hype, at one time, just like
                      we did.

                      Klemp can't help but know that he doesn't
                      live up to Twitchell's definitions for Mahanta.
                      Klemp doesn't "Know" what his chelas think
                      or do in their dreams... none of them!

                      Think about it! If you or I were made a
                      7th one year, an 8th the next, a 9th the
                      next and a 12th LEM/Mahanta the next
                      year would one, really, still believe PT's
                      hype? Especially, when finding out that
                      Twitchell plagiarized and embellished
                      so much info and copied his old religion
                      of Radhasoami among others! Klemp
                      needed Eckankar and his job at the ESC
                      because he couldn't function for very long
                      in normal society like the rest of us have
                      to!

                      Anyway, that's my take on it! I'm sure I'm
                      not completely accurate... HK could be
                      more screwed up than this!

                      Prometheus


                      drubezarne wrote:

                      Hi Prometheus
                      Nice work interpreting Harold Klemp's
                      mess. I thought Klemp's tone was very
                      condescending - as if he was addressing
                      his followers as ignorant children. Did
                      anybody else see it that way? Maybe he
                      actually believes his own lies and really
                      regards himself as God incarnated. If so,
                      we're dealing with a very delusional person.

                      Regards
                      Liska

                      Hi Liska,
                      Thanks for posting Klemp's
                      slanted interpretation to these
                      two letters/Initiate Reports.

                      It does seem odd that the one
                      person is new to Eckankar. So,
                      Why is it necessary to place
                      testimonials of faith in the H.I.
                      Letter? I guess it's to show the
                      H.I.s that Eckankar really works
                      and still works for some people...
                      even a RESA (Mel)!

                      I'll make more comments and give
                      my perspective to Klemp's stories
                      below.

                      Prometheus

                      drubezarne wrote:

                      Here's the latest H.I. Letter for your
                      amusement. It's still the same old line.
                      Can you believe this is meant for people
                      who are supposed to have achieved Self
                      Realization and getting close to God
                      Realization?

                      These letters are supposed to be so full
                      of spiritual wisdom, lower initiates aren't
                      allowed to see them. Give me a break! At
                      the end, he shows his laziness by not even
                      bothering to interpret the lessons.

                      Have fun with this one. I can't wait
                      to see your comments...
                      **********************************
                      HK: 'Dear Brothers of the Leaf,

                      It is always a pleasure to tell you about
                      people who have met an ECK Master and
                      how that contact raised their level of spiritual
                      consciousness.

                      Each story embodies a lesson. WHATEVER
                      lesson each of you gleans from it may be
                      worlds away from the insights of another
                      chela.

                      ME: This is quite a disclaimer isn't it!
                      So, if a RESA gets a different INSIGHT
                      than another RESA then that's okay?
                      But, aren't these Mental Plane words
                      and thoughts being used? And, aren't
                      these "stories" being told actually just
                      SUBJECTIVE experiences! It could be
                      that these "stories" are fictional or are
                      the delusions of a psychologically
                      dysfunctional individual... like Klemp!


                      HK: So strap on your wings, and let's
                      see where you fly!

                      ME: Chickens can't fly very far can they!
                      ECKists thought they were eagles or eaglets
                      before Klemp's "the Fox outside the ECK
                      Henhouse" comment.

                      HK: In the first instance, "Andy" tells how
                      he found ECKANKAR a few short years ago,
                      and the way it changed him. He had lived
                      and worked in New York City for many years.
                      Then 9/11 struck. A short while later, a
                      second shock: he arrived at his workplace
                      to find the doors padlocked. Out of business!

                      ME: I'll bet losing a job happens to a lot
                      of people. Look at what happened to those
                      in the Twin Towers! Why didn't the All
                      Powerful Mahanta protect them? If Fubbi
                      can influence Columbus to find protein so
                      that Europeans will have more time to contemplate
                      then what has Klemp done on a grand scale
                      to benefit humanity!

                      HK: Jobs were scarce; his savings ran out.
                      Unable to pay rent, he was evicted from
                      his apartment and lived in a homeless
                      shelter. It was during these dark days
                      that he found ECKANKAR.

                      ME: Was he required to pay the full annual
                      membership donation? The key word here
                      is DONATION. Therefore, anyone can GIVE
                      any amount of money. If Not Eckankar can
                      lose its TAX EXEMPT status. Of course, you
                      won't get that next pink slip if you don't
                      pay the expected coin AND do the service!

                      HK: One night, Andy had a vivid dream.
                      A stranger motioned to him, with a
                      gentle wave of the hand, to follow him
                      to paradise. Andy reports that this meeting
                      ignited a fireball in his stomach. Only
                      a few days hence, he found a flyer on
                      a bulletin board announcing an ECKANKAR
                      event. ECKists there gave him a very warm
                      welcome. He knew he was home; he had
                      found what he had been searching for.

                      ME: That's odd! Andy doesn't give a
                      description of this "stranger." Why is that?

                      As for his stomach... maybe that was
                      a warning from the real SPIRIT versus
                      the distorted Eckankar (copyrighted)
                      version called "eck."

                      HK: The very next evening, Andy was
                      off to the ECK center. The ECKists welcomed
                      him with open arms. They invited him
                      to view the videos and browse the library.

                      ME: Andy was lucky(?) that he found
                      some friendly faces. I always had to
                      "suggest" that the presiding EK Cleric
                      (and others) go over and talk to the
                      newcomers and to get other H.I.s to
                      do the same. I tried to touch base with
                      everyone. The more active ECKists usually
                      congregated around one another and
                      chatted it up without paying attention
                      to newbies, or to the seldom seen chelas.

                      HK: A surprise awaited him. On a wall
                      hung a picture of the man who had called
                      to him in that dream. It was Fubbi Quantz!
                      Most afternoons that summer, Andy saw
                      himself visiting the ECK center.

                      ME: It seems that Andy didn't have much
                      of a life! I'm surprised that the NYC ECK
                      Center was opened that often! Most aren't!
                      Actually, 99% aren't open "most afternoons"
                      in the Summer or during the rest of the year!

                      HK: He says, "Although I found myself to
                      be destitute for the first time in my life,
                      I felt like the wealthiest man on earth!"

                      ME: Hang onto that feeling, Andy, because
                      Klemp will steal that, too, away from you.

                      HK: Paradise had found him, he continues.
                      The Living ECK Master had found him,
                      and he had found himself. And so,
                      Andy became a member of ECKANKAR.
                      That was another big change. The next
                      one put him on his feet financially again:
                      he moved to Chicago. There, a job opened
                      up. His ECKANKAR membership materials,
                      along with his first discourse, soon came
                      in the mail.

                      ME: Doesn't Klemp's first sentence sound odd.
                      What's with the "he continues?" Also, Klemp
                      is saying that both "Paradise" and the "LEM"
                      "had found him."

                      HK: Andy considers his new chela
                      membership card to be his official
                      birth certificate. And so it is.

                      ME: LOL! Try using that "ANNUAL"
                      membership card in place of a birth
                      certificate! Besides, when was this
                      Soul born? Isn't that more important
                      than a card or a certificate!

                      HK: Now we will take a case from
                      a side of SERVICE in ECKANKAR.
                      Andy told us of his early days,
                      when he first made contact with
                      the teachings of Light and Sound.
                      (Since then, he has begun to serve
                      too. As a seeker, he was served.
                      Now he serves others.)

                      ME: So, Klemp is preparing us for
                      a new story... one with a longtime
                      ECKist who is in a big SERVICE and
                      POWER position. I wonder if Andy
                      was told that "service" (and more
                      coin) will be expected of him before
                      too long?

                      HK: "Mel" is on the other end of
                      the spectrum, in terms of service.
                      He is a RESA.

                      ME: Wait a minute Harry! In the
                      beginning of this article you said
                      it was a pleasure to tell about "people"
                      who have met an ECK Master and
                      how this "contact raised their level
                      of spiritual consciousness." Isn't
                      it possible that a lower initiate
                      is Higher in consciousness than
                      a High Initiate!

                      Klemp has even stated: "It may
                      surprise a FIFTH INITIATE to find
                      that after several years of absence
                      from discourse study, he has slipped
                      back to the FOURTH LEVEL." [The
                      Wisdom Notes. WINTER 1987]
                      When did Klemp last write a discourse?
                      Maybe by Not "writing" versus chelas
                      Not "reading" a discourse that he, too,
                      has "slipped" back... to the 7th level!

                      HK: Shortly before he received news
                      of his appointment, Mel, like Andy,
                      had a vivid dream. He had, in this
                      dream, gone to visit friends in a
                      small town of 1,200. A town so
                      small, he found it hard to believe
                      he had actually lost his car. Curiosity
                      intact, he began to explore the streets.
                      He came upon a Middle Eastern bazaar.

                      ME: But, did "Mel" realize that he was
                      dreaming. Klemp only says that this
                      was a "vivid" dream and not a "lucid"
                      dream. Aren't 7ths, and RESAs especially,
                      supposed to be far more aware and in
                      total consciousness while dreaming!
                      I wonder how many EK chelas lower
                      in rank, as well as, non-ECKists have
                      even greater dream experiences... millions!

                      HK: The place was teeming with shoppers,
                      whom colorful vendors tried to attract
                      with both everyday and exotic items.

                      ME: It would be nice to have more details
                      of the colors and the items sold and of
                      the smells and feeling etc.! Why aren't there
                      more details if this is such a "vivid" dream.

                      HK: Mel continued his explorations. Soon
                      his feet carried him to a large, spacious
                      building, the noise of the bazaar faded
                      in the distance. A BALD man came out
                      of the building. "I am so glad you are
                      here," he said. "Come in, and I will show
                      you what you can do to help."

                      ME: Is every bald guy Yaubl? Oh wait,
                      that other bald guy mentioned in the
                      WINTER 1987 Wisdom Notes was SAT
                      NAM!

                      HK: Yaubl Sacabi, for that was indeed
                      Mel's host, showed him two very large,
                      round, etched-bronze pieces of art.

                      ME: Well, since Yaubl hangs out at
                      the Agam Des temple on the earth
                      plane I can see that there would be
                      physical possessions like bronze
                      art.

                      HK: In the FIRST was the figure of
                      a man, arms and legs stretched out,
                      a man detached from the world he
                      lived in Self-Realization.

                      The SECOND piece of art revealed a
                      man standing quietly in the worlds
                      of God, ready and willing to SERVE
                      as the ECK's will was to be done.

                      ME: Is this SERVICE thing something
                      new? And, Why haven't EK artists,
                      or Klemp, replicated these bronze
                      etchings for the EK Museum? Maybe
                      they will be on display at the 2008
                      EWWS!

                      HK: This was God-Realization! Mel
                      recognized that these two precise
                      etchings showed so well the two main
                      goals of every ECK chela.

                      ME: I would hope that a 7th initiate
                      RESA would be able to figure out that
                      SELF & GOD REALIZATION are GOALS.
                      BUT, there's too much focus on these
                      "Goals" and Not upon living life. Klemp
                      is promoting SERVICE because he needs
                      more money!

                      BTW-The SECOND etching should have
                      shown a man Jumping Off a Bridge!
                      A third could have shown him Stripping
                      at an Airport! And, doesn't the KAL
                      control the Lower Worlds including
                      Agam Des where Yaubl resides!

                      HK: Yaubl said, "Would you deliver them
                      for me?"

                      ME: Will "MEL" be the next LEM/Mahanta?
                      Yaubl is having Mel deliver GOD-REALIZATION
                      to ECK Chelas instead of Klemp! After all,
                      Yaubl is a senior member of the Vairagi
                      Order while Klemp is the junior member!

                      HK: As Mel was en route to make the
                      delivery, he pondered the fact that
                      everything done in behalf of the
                      ECK Masters was a sacred act.

                      ME: Let me get this right. Yaubl made
                      the delivery, to Mel, of these "bronze-
                      etchings" depicting the TWO "MAIN"
                      GOALS for ECKists to experience/see
                      GOD-REALIZATION (via Service).

                      Next, MEL made the "delivery" in a letter/
                      HIRO to Klemp and now Klemp is making
                      another "delivery" via snail mail for his
                      chelas to "see" and act upon. Catch-22!

                      Does "Mel" really exist? This is just
                      another scam by Klemp!

                      Anyway, when these dreams always lead
                      back to SERVICE (like sitting in a empty
                      ECK Center for an Open House or doing
                      an Intro to a few new people who never
                      join) it shows people that Klemp is conning
                      us. This has nothing to do with the real/
                      original reasons for joining Eckankar in
                      the first place! This kind of "Service" leads
                      nowhere spiritually. It's what religions do!

                      HK: A man at the appointed place
                      invited him in. Inside, on a table,
                      stood a bronze sculpture of a man
                      bound to confused and seemingly
                      unconnected events. This man
                      was clearly struggling. He was
                      desperate to be free from that which
                      bound him.

                      ME: Perhaps, it was the requirements
                      of Klemp's Religious EK Hierarchy that
                      "bound" him!

                      I know that after I finally cut the ties
                      and left Eckankar that I had several
                      truly God-Realized experiences.

                      The first removed what seemed like the
                      weight of the world from my shoulders.
                      The experience was of total, Soul, freedom!
                      The clarity of mind and the insights given
                      were incredible! And, later, came contentment
                      of a level that was of the No-Thing Universe
                      and of just BEING. Anyway, when one throws
                      out those EK Initiations, Guidelines, Zoas,
                      spoken & unspoken rules and procedures
                      and requirements for this or that does one
                      finally see the garbage that accumulated
                      over the years!

                      HK: "There is more," he said, "but I don't
                      know how to find the next step."
                      Mel then handed him Yaubl Sacabi's
                      two gifts. The man was deeply touched.
                      Mel left, but looking back, he saw the
                      other looking at his "ANSWERS."

                      ME: LOL! Mel hands this guy two bronze
                      etchings that are supposed to depict
                      Self & God Realization. I guess that the
                      next step was for the guy to Join Eckankar
                      and Pay his Annual Membership...
                      to study discourses, buy more and more
                      books, and do the Service and after about
                      15-18 years they may become a 5th
                      Initiate. But when does an ECKist reach
                      GOD-REALIZATION? At what "level" does
                      a RESA become God-Realized? Klemp's
                      EK Lexicon shows that a NINTH is now
                      on the AGAM LOK where AGAM PURUSHA
                      rules... and this is the SUGMAD.

                      HK: There are several important lessons
                      in this story too. I am sure you will CATCH
                      them."

                      ME: The only thing to "catch" is Klemp's
                      CATCH-22 spin! There is more given for
                      the Lower Level Initiates in The Mystic World!
                      Klemp cannot write anything on his own.
                      He cannot use his own stories and his own
                      words... like Twitchell. Klemp quotes from
                      the Shariyats, the Christian Bible, or from
                      Rumi, and others. But what Spiritual Wisdom
                      is actually attributed to Klemp? Where's
                      Klemp's poetry or Shariyat? He's empty
                      of anything "spiritual" and uses the words
                      and stories of others in order to remain in
                      office! He's the Top Dog and no one is to
                      question his nonsense, and HK never takes
                      responsibility! This is the way of the narcissist!

                      Prometheus
                    • drubezarne
                      Prometheus I think his mental disease has gotten worse over the years. At first he at least made an effort to write books and discourses, although he did pad
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 10, 2008
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                        Prometheus
                        I think his mental disease has gotten worse over the years. At first
                        he at least made an effort to write books and discourses, although he
                        did pad them heavily with stories from his followers. Back then he
                        also tried to interpret the stories. It's been a while now since he
                        wrote a book. His Eckankar staff keeps recycling his talks and old
                        writings under new titles just so they can have something new to sell.

                        Either his mental disease debilitates him or he's just plain lazy
                        because all he does now is rehash stories from his eckists without
                        even trying to interpret the meaning behind them. Wouldn't you think
                        that anybody with a half brain would start to realize that Klemp isn't
                        the God being they used to think he was? All they have to do is turn
                        on the TV and listen to some new age televangelical to hear more
                        useful information. That's how bad it's gotten in Eckankar. And so,
                        those of us participating here keep yelling to the comatose eckists
                        who somehow sleepwalked onto this forum to "Wake Up Already!"

                        Regards
                        Liska

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Liska and All,
                        > When looking at Klemp's comments
                        > about his childhood and his ping-
                        > pong matches and jumping off that
                        > bridge, stripping at the airport and
                        > choosing to go to a mental institution
                        > it makes sense that he would, also,
                        > choose to go to the 1971 EWWS instead
                        > of to his father's funeral to console
                        > his mother. And, Klemp made his young
                        > daughter (about 8 years old) use and
                        > maintain an old push mower in order
                        > for her to have a small grass yard.
                        > It's no wonder he has no relationship
                        > with her and his three grandchildren.
                        >
                        > Klemp is certainly a narcissist and that's
                        > bad for those who come in close contact
                        > with him when things don't go his way.
                        > A narcissist is never wrong, never takes
                        > responsibility, and never apologizes.
                        > They attempt to manipulate and control
                        > situations and people into thinking that
                        > bad things are the fault of others. They are
                        > good at playing the blame game. Narcissists
                        > will seek out those that they can manipulate
                        > more easily than others, especially, enablers.
                        > They like to be admired and feel very clever
                        > fooling people. They think they are more
                        > intelligent, or street smart, than anyone else.
                        > Narcissists will also show two faces to people.
                        > As long as they are in control they are happy,
                        > but when confronted or challenged they will
                        > show their truer nasty side.
                        >
                        > On top of this I believe that Klemp also
                        > has some other personality disorders, as
                        > well as, arrested development.
                        >
                        > Do I think Klemp is delusional... YES!
                        > Do I think he really knows that he's a
                        > scammer... YES again! I think he half
                        > believed the hype, at one time, just like
                        > we did.
                        >
                        > Klemp can't help but know that he doesn't
                        > live up to Twitchell's definitions for Mahanta.
                        > Klemp doesn't "Know" what his chelas think
                        > or do in their dreams... none of them!
                        >
                        > Think about it! If you or I were made a
                        > 7th one year, an 8th the next, a 9th the
                        > next and a 12th LEM/Mahanta the next
                        > year would one, really, still believe PT's
                        > hype? Especially, when finding out that
                        > Twitchell plagiarized and embellished
                        > so much info and copied his old religion
                        > of Radhasoami among others! Klemp
                        > needed Eckankar and his job at the ESC
                        > because he couldn't function for very long
                        > in normal society like the rest of us have
                        > to!
                        >
                        > Anyway, that's my take on it! I'm sure I'm
                        > not completely accurate... HK could be
                        > more screwed up than this!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > drubezarne wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Prometheus
                        > Nice work interpreting Harold Klemp's
                        > mess. I thought Klemp's tone was very
                        > condescending - as if he was addressing
                        > his followers as ignorant children. Did
                        > anybody else see it that way? Maybe he
                        > actually believes his own lies and really
                        > regards himself as God incarnated. If so,
                        > we're dealing with a very delusional person.
                        >
                        > Regards
                        > Liska
                        >
                        > Hi Liska,
                        > Thanks for posting Klemp's
                        > slanted interpretation to these
                        > two letters/Initiate Reports.
                        >
                        > It does seem odd that the one
                        > person is new to Eckankar. So,
                        > Why is it necessary to place
                        > testimonials of faith in the H.I.
                        > Letter? I guess it's to show the
                        > H.I.s that Eckankar really works
                        > and still works for some people...
                        > even a RESA (Mel)!
                        >
                        > I'll make more comments and give
                        > my perspective to Klemp's stories
                        > below.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > drubezarne wrote:
                        >
                        > Here's the latest H.I. Letter for your
                        > amusement. It's still the same old line.
                        > Can you believe this is meant for people
                        > who are supposed to have achieved Self
                        > Realization and getting close to God
                        > Realization?
                        >
                        > These letters are supposed to be so full
                        > of spiritual wisdom, lower initiates aren't
                        > allowed to see them. Give me a break! At
                        > the end, he shows his laziness by not even
                        > bothering to interpret the lessons.
                        >
                        > Have fun with this one. I can't wait
                        > to see your comments...
                        > **********************************
                        > HK: 'Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
                        >
                        > It is always a pleasure to tell you about
                        > people who have met an ECK Master and
                        > how that contact raised their level of spiritual
                        > consciousness.
                        >
                        > Each story embodies a lesson. WHATEVER
                        > lesson each of you gleans from it may be
                        > worlds away from the insights of another
                        > chela.
                        >
                        > ME: This is quite a disclaimer isn't it!
                        > So, if a RESA gets a different INSIGHT
                        > than another RESA then that's okay?
                        > But, aren't these Mental Plane words
                        > and thoughts being used? And, aren't
                        > these "stories" being told actually just
                        > SUBJECTIVE experiences! It could be
                        > that these "stories" are fictional or are
                        > the delusions of a psychologically
                        > dysfunctional individual... like Klemp!
                        >
                        >
                        > HK: So strap on your wings, and let's
                        > see where you fly!
                        >
                        > ME: Chickens can't fly very far can they!
                        > ECKists thought they were eagles or eaglets
                        > before Klemp's "the Fox outside the ECK
                        > Henhouse" comment.
                        >
                        > HK: In the first instance, "Andy" tells how
                        > he found ECKANKAR a few short years ago,
                        > and the way it changed him. He had lived
                        > and worked in New York City for many years.
                        > Then 9/11 struck. A short while later, a
                        > second shock: he arrived at his workplace
                        > to find the doors padlocked. Out of business!
                        >
                        > ME: I'll bet losing a job happens to a lot
                        > of people. Look at what happened to those
                        > in the Twin Towers! Why didn't the All
                        > Powerful Mahanta protect them? If Fubbi
                        > can influence Columbus to find protein so
                        > that Europeans will have more time to contemplate
                        > then what has Klemp done on a grand scale
                        > to benefit humanity!
                        >
                        > HK: Jobs were scarce; his savings ran out.
                        > Unable to pay rent, he was evicted from
                        > his apartment and lived in a homeless
                        > shelter. It was during these dark days
                        > that he found ECKANKAR.
                        >
                        > ME: Was he required to pay the full annual
                        > membership donation? The key word here
                        > is DONATION. Therefore, anyone can GIVE
                        > any amount of money. If Not Eckankar can
                        > lose its TAX EXEMPT status. Of course, you
                        > won't get that next pink slip if you don't
                        > pay the expected coin AND do the service!
                        >
                        > HK: One night, Andy had a vivid dream.
                        > A stranger motioned to him, with a
                        > gentle wave of the hand, to follow him
                        > to paradise. Andy reports that this meeting
                        > ignited a fireball in his stomach. Only
                        > a few days hence, he found a flyer on
                        > a bulletin board announcing an ECKANKAR
                        > event. ECKists there gave him a very warm
                        > welcome. He knew he was home; he had
                        > found what he had been searching for.
                        >
                        > ME: That's odd! Andy doesn't give a
                        > description of this "stranger." Why is that?
                        >
                        > As for his stomach... maybe that was
                        > a warning from the real SPIRIT versus
                        > the distorted Eckankar (copyrighted)
                        > version called "eck."
                        >
                        > HK: The very next evening, Andy was
                        > off to the ECK center. The ECKists welcomed
                        > him with open arms. They invited him
                        > to view the videos and browse the library.
                        >
                        > ME: Andy was lucky(?) that he found
                        > some friendly faces. I always had to
                        > "suggest" that the presiding EK Cleric
                        > (and others) go over and talk to the
                        > newcomers and to get other H.I.s to
                        > do the same. I tried to touch base with
                        > everyone. The more active ECKists usually
                        > congregated around one another and
                        > chatted it up without paying attention
                        > to newbies, or to the seldom seen chelas.
                        >
                        > HK: A surprise awaited him. On a wall
                        > hung a picture of the man who had called
                        > to him in that dream. It was Fubbi Quantz!
                        > Most afternoons that summer, Andy saw
                        > himself visiting the ECK center.
                        >
                        > ME: It seems that Andy didn't have much
                        > of a life! I'm surprised that the NYC ECK
                        > Center was opened that often! Most aren't!
                        > Actually, 99% aren't open "most afternoons"
                        > in the Summer or during the rest of the year!
                        >
                        > HK: He says, "Although I found myself to
                        > be destitute for the first time in my life,
                        > I felt like the wealthiest man on earth!"
                        >
                        > ME: Hang onto that feeling, Andy, because
                        > Klemp will steal that, too, away from you.
                        >
                        > HK: Paradise had found him, he continues.
                        > The Living ECK Master had found him,
                        > and he had found himself. And so,
                        > Andy became a member of ECKANKAR.
                        > That was another big change. The next
                        > one put him on his feet financially again:
                        > he moved to Chicago. There, a job opened
                        > up. His ECKANKAR membership materials,
                        > along with his first discourse, soon came
                        > in the mail.
                        >
                        > ME: Doesn't Klemp's first sentence sound odd.
                        > What's with the "he continues?" Also, Klemp
                        > is saying that both "Paradise" and the "LEM"
                        > "had found him."
                        >
                        > HK: Andy considers his new chela
                        > membership card to be his official
                        > birth certificate. And so it is.
                        >
                        > ME: LOL! Try using that "ANNUAL"
                        > membership card in place of a birth
                        > certificate! Besides, when was this
                        > Soul born? Isn't that more important
                        > than a card or a certificate!
                        >
                        > HK: Now we will take a case from
                        > a side of SERVICE in ECKANKAR.
                        > Andy told us of his early days,
                        > when he first made contact with
                        > the teachings of Light and Sound.
                        > (Since then, he has begun to serve
                        > too. As a seeker, he was served.
                        > Now he serves others.)
                        >
                        > ME: So, Klemp is preparing us for
                        > a new story... one with a longtime
                        > ECKist who is in a big SERVICE and
                        > POWER position. I wonder if Andy
                        > was told that "service" (and more
                        > coin) will be expected of him before
                        > too long?
                        >
                        > HK: "Mel" is on the other end of
                        > the spectrum, in terms of service.
                        > He is a RESA.
                        >
                        > ME: Wait a minute Harry! In the
                        > beginning of this article you said
                        > it was a pleasure to tell about "people"
                        > who have met an ECK Master and
                        > how this "contact raised their level
                        > of spiritual consciousness." Isn't
                        > it possible that a lower initiate
                        > is Higher in consciousness than
                        > a High Initiate!
                        >
                        > Klemp has even stated: "It may
                        > surprise a FIFTH INITIATE to find
                        > that after several years of absence
                        > from discourse study, he has slipped
                        > back to the FOURTH LEVEL." [The
                        > Wisdom Notes. WINTER 1987]
                        > When did Klemp last write a discourse?
                        > Maybe by Not "writing" versus chelas
                        > Not "reading" a discourse that he, too,
                        > has "slipped" back... to the 7th level!
                        >
                        > HK: Shortly before he received news
                        > of his appointment, Mel, like Andy,
                        > had a vivid dream. He had, in this
                        > dream, gone to visit friends in a
                        > small town of 1,200. A town so
                        > small, he found it hard to believe
                        > he had actually lost his car. Curiosity
                        > intact, he began to explore the streets.
                        > He came upon a Middle Eastern bazaar.
                        >
                        > ME: But, did "Mel" realize that he was
                        > dreaming. Klemp only says that this
                        > was a "vivid" dream and not a "lucid"
                        > dream. Aren't 7ths, and RESAs especially,
                        > supposed to be far more aware and in
                        > total consciousness while dreaming!
                        > I wonder how many EK chelas lower
                        > in rank, as well as, non-ECKists have
                        > even greater dream experiences... millions!
                        >
                        > HK: The place was teeming with shoppers,
                        > whom colorful vendors tried to attract
                        > with both everyday and exotic items.
                        >
                        > ME: It would be nice to have more details
                        > of the colors and the items sold and of
                        > the smells and feeling etc.! Why aren't there
                        > more details if this is such a "vivid" dream.
                        >
                        > HK: Mel continued his explorations. Soon
                        > his feet carried him to a large, spacious
                        > building, the noise of the bazaar faded
                        > in the distance. A BALD man came out
                        > of the building. "I am so glad you are
                        > here," he said. "Come in, and I will show
                        > you what you can do to help."
                        >
                        > ME: Is every bald guy Yaubl? Oh wait,
                        > that other bald guy mentioned in the
                        > WINTER 1987 Wisdom Notes was SAT
                        > NAM!
                        >
                        > HK: Yaubl Sacabi, for that was indeed
                        > Mel's host, showed him two very large,
                        > round, etched-bronze pieces of art.
                        >
                        > ME: Well, since Yaubl hangs out at
                        > the Agam Des temple on the earth
                        > plane I can see that there would be
                        > physical possessions like bronze
                        > art.
                        >
                        > HK: In the FIRST was the figure of
                        > a man, arms and legs stretched out,
                        > a man detached from the world he
                        > lived in Self-Realization.
                        >
                        > The SECOND piece of art revealed a
                        > man standing quietly in the worlds
                        > of God, ready and willing to SERVE
                        > as the ECK's will was to be done.
                        >
                        > ME: Is this SERVICE thing something
                        > new? And, Why haven't EK artists,
                        > or Klemp, replicated these bronze
                        > etchings for the EK Museum? Maybe
                        > they will be on display at the 2008
                        > EWWS!
                        >
                        > HK: This was God-Realization! Mel
                        > recognized that these two precise
                        > etchings showed so well the two main
                        > goals of every ECK chela.
                        >
                        > ME: I would hope that a 7th initiate
                        > RESA would be able to figure out that
                        > SELF & GOD REALIZATION are GOALS.
                        > BUT, there's too much focus on these
                        > "Goals" and Not upon living life. Klemp
                        > is promoting SERVICE because he needs
                        > more money!
                        >
                        > BTW-The SECOND etching should have
                        > shown a man Jumping Off a Bridge!
                        > A third could have shown him Stripping
                        > at an Airport! And, doesn't the KAL
                        > control the Lower Worlds including
                        > Agam Des where Yaubl resides!
                        >
                        > HK: Yaubl said, "Would you deliver them
                        > for me?"
                        >
                        > ME: Will "MEL" be the next LEM/Mahanta?
                        > Yaubl is having Mel deliver GOD-REALIZATION
                        > to ECK Chelas instead of Klemp! After all,
                        > Yaubl is a senior member of the Vairagi
                        > Order while Klemp is the junior member!
                        >
                        > HK: As Mel was en route to make the
                        > delivery, he pondered the fact that
                        > everything done in behalf of the
                        > ECK Masters was a sacred act.
                        >
                        > ME: Let me get this right. Yaubl made
                        > the delivery, to Mel, of these "bronze-
                        > etchings" depicting the TWO "MAIN"
                        > GOALS for ECKists to experience/see
                        > GOD-REALIZATION (via Service).
                        >
                        > Next, MEL made the "delivery" in a letter/
                        > HIRO to Klemp and now Klemp is making
                        > another "delivery" via snail mail for his
                        > chelas to "see" and act upon. Catch-22!
                        >
                        > Does "Mel" really exist? This is just
                        > another scam by Klemp!
                        >
                        > Anyway, when these dreams always lead
                        > back to SERVICE (like sitting in a empty
                        > ECK Center for an Open House or doing
                        > an Intro to a few new people who never
                        > join) it shows people that Klemp is conning
                        > us. This has nothing to do with the real/
                        > original reasons for joining Eckankar in
                        > the first place! This kind of "Service" leads
                        > nowhere spiritually. It's what religions do!
                        >
                        > HK: A man at the appointed place
                        > invited him in. Inside, on a table,
                        > stood a bronze sculpture of a man
                        > bound to confused and seemingly
                        > unconnected events. This man
                        > was clearly struggling. He was
                        > desperate to be free from that which
                        > bound him.
                        >
                        > ME: Perhaps, it was the requirements
                        > of Klemp's Religious EK Hierarchy that
                        > "bound" him!
                        >
                        > I know that after I finally cut the ties
                        > and left Eckankar that I had several
                        > truly God-Realized experiences.
                        >
                        > The first removed what seemed like the
                        > weight of the world from my shoulders.
                        > The experience was of total, Soul, freedom!
                        > The clarity of mind and the insights given
                        > were incredible! And, later, came contentment
                        > of a level that was of the No-Thing Universe
                        > and of just BEING. Anyway, when one throws
                        > out those EK Initiations, Guidelines, Zoas,
                        > spoken & unspoken rules and procedures
                        > and requirements for this or that does one
                        > finally see the garbage that accumulated
                        > over the years!
                        >
                        > HK: "There is more," he said, "but I don't
                        > know how to find the next step."
                        > Mel then handed him Yaubl Sacabi's
                        > two gifts. The man was deeply touched.
                        > Mel left, but looking back, he saw the
                        > other looking at his "ANSWERS."
                        >
                        > ME: LOL! Mel hands this guy two bronze
                        > etchings that are supposed to depict
                        > Self & God Realization. I guess that the
                        > next step was for the guy to Join Eckankar
                        > and Pay his Annual Membership...
                        > to study discourses, buy more and more
                        > books, and do the Service and after about
                        > 15-18 years they may become a 5th
                        > Initiate. But when does an ECKist reach
                        > GOD-REALIZATION? At what "level" does
                        > a RESA become God-Realized? Klemp's
                        > EK Lexicon shows that a NINTH is now
                        > on the AGAM LOK where AGAM PURUSHA
                        > rules... and this is the SUGMAD.
                        >
                        > HK: There are several important lessons
                        > in this story too. I am sure you will CATCH
                        > them."
                        >
                        > ME: The only thing to "catch" is Klemp's
                        > CATCH-22 spin! There is more given for
                        > the Lower Level Initiates in The Mystic World!
                        > Klemp cannot write anything on his own.
                        > He cannot use his own stories and his own
                        > words... like Twitchell. Klemp quotes from
                        > the Shariyats, the Christian Bible, or from
                        > Rumi, and others. But what Spiritual Wisdom
                        > is actually attributed to Klemp? Where's
                        > Klemp's poetry or Shariyat? He's empty
                        > of anything "spiritual" and uses the words
                        > and stories of others in order to remain in
                        > office! He's the Top Dog and no one is to
                        > question his nonsense, and HK never takes
                        > responsibility! This is the way of the narcissist!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        What Now, Mahanta? is another testimonial to Klemp in this H.I. Letter. This drug-alcohol counselor (chemical-dependency) had shown up at a restaurant the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 10, 2008
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                          "What Now, Mahanta?" is another
                          testimonial to Klemp in this H.I.
                          Letter. This drug-alcohol counselor
                          (chemical-dependency) had shown
                          up at a restaurant the night before
                          and had to sit at the bar before her
                          table was ready. Then she saw her
                          19 year old "client" arrive. They
                          offered them to sit at their table
                          and they accepted.

                          The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                          of the young client while driving
                          and saw a street sign with the client's
                          name. This was a heads up for her.
                          When she arrived at the office Monday
                          she saw the 19 year old client and
                          was told that she had planned on
                          drinking that night until she was
                          surprised to have seen the counselor
                          sitting at the bar.

                          In conclusion the storyteller states:
                          "We often don't know when and how
                          we will be used by the ECK in service
                          to another. Sometimes all we have to
                          do is ask, 'What Now Mahanta?'"

                          The thing is, these same events happen
                          without a Mahanta! It is the connection
                          between Soul and Spirit (eck). This
                          "SPIRIT" is the same as what some
                          call the "ECK."

                          In post # 3783 The Use of Hypnotism
                          in Eckankar Liska stated:

                          "I realize that once a person steps away
                          from Eckankar, they want to rid themselves
                          of all the brainwashing. I still get certain
                          words that pop up when I think about God
                          such as Sugmad and Mahanta. I know these
                          are conditioned words from the subconscious.
                          And so, when these unwanted words pop up,
                          I have to edit my thoughts and substitute
                          non-eck terms for them in order to re-condition
                          my subconsciousness."

                          I had to do the same! I had some difficulty
                          with selecting proper terminology, too, after
                          leaving Eckankar because I was so use to calling
                          upon the Mahanta for help. It is way too easy
                          to always look to someone else (a God) when
                          we should look to Self! After all, we humans have
                          physical bodies, disease (pain), decay (death)
                          and all sorts of limitations and stressors (fears).
                          But, as SOUL, we are greater than the appearances.

                          However, ECKists (and others) take back this Divine
                          Awareness when they call upon another "image"
                          (Mahanta, Jesus, etc.) to intercede for Soul & Spirit.
                          It is true brain-washing to become co-dependent
                          upon another in order to make decisions or to give
                          them credit for the harmony and synchronicity in
                          one's life.

                          What ECKists don't see is that others, who do not
                          follow Eckankar dogma, have the same things happen
                          to them. Others give credit to God or to Jesus or
                          Whomever/Whatever versus Mahanta! A few realize
                          their own Divinity as Soul and work with letting
                          Spirit in or recognizing Its presence. No membership,
                          service, money, or hierarchy required... but there
                          is responsibility!

                          Prometheus

                          drubezarne wrote:
                          >
                          Prometheus
                          I think his mental disease has gotten
                          worse over the years. At first he at least
                          made an effort to write books and discourses,
                          although he did pad them heavily with
                          stories from his followers. Back then he
                          also tried to interpret the stories. It's been
                          a while now since he wrote a book. His
                          Eckankar staff keeps recycling his talks
                          and old writings under new titles just
                          so they can have something new to sell.
                          >
                          Either his mental disease debilitates
                          him or he's just plain lazy because all
                          he does now is rehash stories from his
                          eckists without even trying to interpret
                          the meaning behind them. Wouldn't you
                          think that anybody with a half brain would
                          start to realize that Klemp isn't the God
                          being they used to think he was? All they
                          have to do is turn on the TV and listen
                          to some new age televangelical to hear
                          more useful information. That's how
                          bad it's gotten in Eckankar. And so,
                          those of us participating here keep
                          yelling to the comatose eckists
                          who somehow sleepwalked onto
                          this forum to "Wake Up Already!"
                          >
                          Regards
                          Liska
                          >

                          prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          Hello Liska and All,
                          When looking at Klemp's comments
                          about his childhood and his ping-
                          pong matches and jumping off that
                          bridge, stripping at the airport and
                          choosing to go to a mental institution
                          it makes sense that he would, also,
                          choose to go to the 1971 EWWS instead
                          of to his father's funeral to console
                          his mother. And, Klemp made his young
                          daughter (about 8 years old) use and
                          maintain an old push mower in order
                          for her to have a small grass yard.
                          It's no wonder he has no relationship
                          with her and his three grandchildren.
                          > >
                          Klemp is certainly a narcissist and that's
                          bad for those who come in close contact
                          with him when things don't go his way.
                          A narcissist is never wrong, never takes
                          responsibility, and never apologizes.
                          They attempt to manipulate and control
                          situations and people into thinking that
                          bad things are the fault of others. They are
                          good at playing the blame game. Narcissists
                          will seek out those that they can manipulate
                          more easily than others, especially, enablers.
                          They like to be admired and feel very clever
                          fooling people. They think they are more
                          intelligent, or street smart, than anyone else.
                          Narcissists will also show two faces to people.
                          As long as they are in control they are happy,
                          but when confronted or challenged they will
                          show their truer nasty side.
                          > >
                          On top of this I believe that Klemp also
                          has some other personality disorders, as
                          well as, arrested development.
                          > >
                          Do I think Klemp is delusional... YES!
                          Do I think he really knows that he's a
                          scammer... YES again! I think he half
                          believed the hype, at one time, just like
                          we did.
                          > >
                          Klemp can't help but know that he doesn't
                          live up to Twitchell's definitions for Mahanta.
                          Klemp doesn't "Know" what his chelas think
                          or do in their dreams... none of them!
                          > >
                          Think about it! If you or I were made a
                          7th one year, an 8th the next, a 9th the
                          next and a 12th LEM/Mahanta the next
                          year would one, really, still believe PT's
                          hype? Especially, when finding out that
                          Twitchell plagiarized and embellished
                          so much info and copied his old religion
                          of Radhasoami among others! Klemp
                          needed Eckankar and his job at the ESC
                          because he couldn't function for very long
                          in normal society like the rest of us have
                          to!
                          > >
                          Anyway, that's my take on it! I'm sure I'm
                          not completely accurate... HK could be
                          more screwed up than this!
                          > >
                          Prometheus
                        • prometheus_973
                          Klemp s TWEM was written in 2005 for, basically, two reasons. One was to promote Joan to EK Master status (2008?), and the other was to make more money
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 10, 2008
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                            Klemp's TWEM was written in 2005
                            for, basically, two reasons. One was
                            to promote Joan to EK Master status
                            (2008?), and the other was to make
                            more money (royalties) from the book.
                            HK used the book to "tweak" descriptions
                            of the main line of fictitious EK Masters
                            while making preparation for Joan's
                            entrance as an 11th or 12th.

                            It's true that Klemp, once again,
                            used old material in this new book.
                            The Fubbi and Columbus story was
                            a rewrite of the FALL 1984 Wisdom
                            Note!

                            Yes, I too think that Klemp is not
                            only lazy but arrogant as well! Does
                            he really need to try, all that hard,
                            when he promotes the use of the
                            "imagination" as he does? No, he
                            just sits back and pretends! It's
                            ever so easy when one doesn't
                            even have to show up on a daily
                            basis. Klemp's too busy with
                            "inner" workings and researching
                            that next book of redundant
                            information with chelas' stories.

                            Why does the great "Mahanta"
                            need to refer ECKists to the
                            poetry of RUMI? Rumi followed,
                            wrote about, and was inspired
                            by a 2nd or 4th Plane God and
                            this is the KAL or Satan! Just
                            look at Autobiography of a
                            Modern Prophet pg. 385.
                            Why can't Klemp write poetry
                            about the SUGMAD that would
                            put Rumi's poetry to shame?
                            Can't Klemp write anything
                            more enlightening and inspiring?
                            Apparently Not!

                            After all of these years (27) it is
                            really No longer necessary for Klemp
                            to try and sound more spiritual or
                            enlightened. Klemp's K.I.S.S. (Keep
                            It Simple Stupid) routine is his ruse
                            for everything he does. This is why
                            HK's talks and books sound (are)
                            dumbed down. Even the H.I. Letter
                            has nothing of "high" spiritual value.

                            The test of time has proven that
                            Klemp is a fraud and that Eckankar
                            is just another religion!

                            Prometheus

                            drubezarne wrote:
                            >
                            Prometheus
                            I think his mental disease has gotten
                            worse over the years. At first he at least
                            made an effort to write books and discourses,
                            although he did pad them heavily with
                            stories from his followers. Back then he
                            also tried to interpret the stories. It's been
                            a while now since he wrote a book. His
                            Eckankar staff keeps recycling his talks
                            and old writings under new titles just
                            so they can have something new to sell.
                            >
                            Either his mental disease debilitates him
                            or he's just plain lazy because all he does
                            now is rehash stories from his eckists without
                            even trying to interpret the meaning behind
                            them. Wouldn't you think that anybody with
                            a half brain would start to realize that Klemp
                            isn't the God being they used to think he was?
                            All they have to do is turn on the TV and listen
                            to some new age televangelical to hear more
                            useful information. That's how bad it's gotten
                            in Eckankar. And so, those of us participating
                            here keep yelling to the comatose eckists
                            who somehow sleepwalked onto this forum
                            to "Wake Up Already!"
                            >
                            Regards
                            Liska
                          • drubezarne
                            Prometheus, you quoted Klemp s story in which he rehashed someone s experience. Part of the quote was, The next day (Sat.) she was thinking of the young
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 10, 2008
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                              Prometheus, you quoted Klemp's story in which he rehashed someone's
                              experience. Part of the quote was, "The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                              of the young client while driving and saw a street sign with the
                              client's name. This was a heads up for her."

                              When she saw that sign it was what Klemp termed "The Awakened Dream".

                              This is a prime example of the wrong-headed guidance that eckists get
                              from this charlatan with the fancy title Mahanta, The Living Eck
                              Master. Eckists are trained to look for signs (awakened dream
                              symbols). These are secondary effects produced and perceived by the
                              consciousness. In actuality, we don't look for effects or
                              manifestations of our consciousnes, instead we look to the I AM, the
                              primal cause of all things.

                              Listen to what Neville says about signs in Your Faith is Your Fortune.
                              He says, "Stop looking for signs. Signs follow; they do not precede.
                              Begin to reverse the statement, "Seeing is believing," to "Believing
                              is seeing."

                              Regards
                              Liska

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > "What Now, Mahanta?" is another
                              > testimonial to Klemp in this H.I.
                              > Letter. This drug-alcohol counselor
                              > (chemical-dependency) had shown
                              > up at a restaurant the night before
                              > and had to sit at the bar before her
                              > table was ready. Then she saw her
                              > 19 year old "client" arrive. They
                              > offered them to sit at their table
                              > and they accepted.
                              >
                              > The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                              > of the young client while driving
                              > and saw a street sign with the client's
                              > name. This was a heads up for her.
                              > When she arrived at the office Monday
                              > she saw the 19 year old client and
                              > was told that she had planned on
                              > drinking that night until she was
                              > surprised to have seen the counselor
                              > sitting at the bar.
                              >
                              > In conclusion the storyteller states:
                              > "We often don't know when and how
                              > we will be used by the ECK in service
                              > to another. Sometimes all we have to
                              > do is ask, 'What Now Mahanta?'"
                              >
                              > The thing is, these same events happen
                              > without a Mahanta! It is the connection
                              > between Soul and Spirit (eck). This
                              > "SPIRIT" is the same as what some
                              > call the "ECK."
                              >
                              > In post # 3783 The Use of Hypnotism
                              > in Eckankar Liska stated:
                              >
                              > "I realize that once a person steps away
                              > from Eckankar, they want to rid themselves
                              > of all the brainwashing. I still get certain
                              > words that pop up when I think about God
                              > such as Sugmad and Mahanta. I know these
                              > are conditioned words from the subconscious.
                              > And so, when these unwanted words pop up,
                              > I have to edit my thoughts and substitute
                              > non-eck terms for them in order to re-condition
                              > my subconsciousness."
                              >
                              > I had to do the same! I had some difficulty
                              > with selecting proper terminology, too, after
                              > leaving Eckankar because I was so use to calling
                              > upon the Mahanta for help. It is way too easy
                              > to always look to someone else (a God) when
                              > we should look to Self! After all, we humans have
                              > physical bodies, disease (pain), decay (death)
                              > and all sorts of limitations and stressors (fears).
                              > But, as SOUL, we are greater than the appearances.
                              >
                              > However, ECKists (and others) take back this Divine
                              > Awareness when they call upon another "image"
                              > (Mahanta, Jesus, etc.) to intercede for Soul & Spirit.
                              > It is true brain-washing to become co-dependent
                              > upon another in order to make decisions or to give
                              > them credit for the harmony and synchronicity in
                              > one's life.
                              >
                              > What ECKists don't see is that others, who do not
                              > follow Eckankar dogma, have the same things happen
                              > to them. Others give credit to God or to Jesus or
                              > Whomever/Whatever versus Mahanta! A few realize
                              > their own Divinity as Soul and work with letting
                              > Spirit in or recognizing Its presence. No membership,
                              > service, money, or hierarchy required... but there
                              > is responsibility!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Yes, Signs are generally effect and Not cause. For instance, the counselor saw the street sign, with her client s name, the next day after they had met at
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                Yes, "Signs" are generally effect
                                and Not cause. For instance, the
                                counselor saw the street sign,
                                with her client's name, the next
                                day "after" they had met at the
                                bar in the restaurant.

                                I usually rely upon the
                                premonition of "nudges"
                                or "insights" because I've
                                had negative dealings with
                                reading things into "signs"
                                as an ECKist.

                                Back in the 1980's I was an
                                EK Vahana and Local EK Leader
                                looking at houses a local contractor
                                was building. The builder used
                                a business logo of a Blue Gem Star.
                                The street names also sounded
                                very "spiritual," or ECKie, like Blue
                                Bird Lane or Starlight Way. One,
                                really nice, newly built house for
                                sale even had a house number
                                with 3's and 9's in it like 1359!

                                Well, it was quite tempting to buy
                                this one house, but I didn't! I just
                                didn't have the "nudge" to do so.
                                I looked beyond the "signs."
                                If I had been a true blue mindless
                                ECKist I would have jumped at the
                                deal (the price was good too)!

                                Later, I heard that the contractor
                                had some problems with quality
                                and design issues and was filing
                                for bankruptcy.

                                Prometheus


                                drubezarne wrote:
                                >
                                Prometheus, you quoted Klemp's
                                story in which he rehashed someone's
                                experience. Part of the quote was,
                                "The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                                of the young client while driving and
                                saw a street sign with the client's name.
                                This was a heads up for her."
                                >
                                When she saw that sign it was what
                                Klemp termed "The Awakened Dream".
                                >
                                This is a prime example of the wrong-
                                headed guidance that eckists get
                                from this charlatan with the fancy
                                title Mahanta, The Living Eck Master.
                                Eckists are trained to look for signs
                                (awakened dream symbols). These
                                are secondary effects produced
                                and perceived by the consciousness.
                                In actuality, we don't look for effects
                                or manifestations of our consciousnes,
                                instead we look to the I AM, the primal
                                cause of all things.
                                >
                                Listen to what Neville says about
                                signs in Your Faith is Your Fortune.
                                He says, "Stop looking for signs.
                                Signs follow; they do not precede.
                                Begin to reverse the statement,
                                "Seeing is believing," to "Believing
                                is seeing."
                                >
                                Regards
                                Liska
                                >

                                prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                "What Now, Mahanta?" is another
                                testimonial to Klemp in this H.I.
                                Letter. This drug-alcohol counselor
                                (chemical-dependency) had shown
                                up at a restaurant the night before
                                and had to sit at the bar before her
                                table was ready. Then she saw her
                                19 year old "client" arrive. They
                                offered them to sit at their table
                                and they accepted.
                                > >
                                The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                                of the young client while driving
                                and saw a street sign with the client's
                                name. This was a heads up for her.
                                When she arrived at the office Monday
                                she saw the 19 year old client and
                                was told that she had planned on
                                drinking that night until she was
                                surprised to have seen the counselor
                                sitting at the bar.
                                > >
                                In conclusion the storyteller states:
                                "We often don't know when and how
                                we will be used by the ECK in service
                                to another. Sometimes all we have to
                                do is ask, 'What Now Mahanta?'"
                                > >
                                The thing is, these same events happen
                                without a Mahanta! It is the connection
                                between Soul and Spirit (eck). This
                                "SPIRIT" is the same as what some
                                call the "ECK."
                                > >
                                In post # 3783 The Use of Hypnotism
                                in Eckankar Liska stated:
                                > >
                                "I realize that once a person steps away
                                from Eckankar, they want to rid themselves
                                of all the brainwashing. I still get certain
                                words that pop up when I think about God
                                such as Sugmad and Mahanta. I know these
                                are conditioned words from the subconscious.
                                And so, when these unwanted words pop up,
                                I have to edit my thoughts and substitute
                                non-eck terms for them in order to re-condition
                                my subconsciousness."

                                Prometheus continues:
                                I had to do the same! I had some difficulty
                                with selecting proper terminology, too, after
                                leaving Eckankar because I was so use to calling
                                upon the Mahanta for help. It is way too easy
                                to always look to someone else (a God) when
                                we should look to Self! After all, we humans have
                                physical bodies, disease (pain), decay (death)
                                and all sorts of limitations and stressors (fears).
                                But, as SOUL, we are greater than the appearances.
                                > >
                                However, ECKists (and others) take back this Divine
                                Awareness when they call upon another "image"
                                (Mahanta, Jesus, etc.) to intercede for Soul & Spirit.
                                It is true brain-washing to become co-dependent
                                upon another in order to make decisions or to give
                                them credit for the harmony and synchronicity in
                                one's life.
                                > >
                                What ECKists don't see is that others, who do not
                                follow Eckankar dogma, have the same things happen
                                to them. Others give credit to God or to Jesus or
                                Whomever/Whatever versus Mahanta! A few realize
                                their own Divinity as Soul and work with letting
                                Spirit in or recognizing Its presence. No membership,
                                service, money, or hierarchy required... but there
                                is responsibility!
                                > >
                                Prometheus
                              • mishmisha9
                                It is really silly how eckists look for signs literally: street signs, license plates, billboards, etc. for guidance! That just isn t very creative is it??
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                  It is really silly how eckists look for signs literally: street signs,
                                  license plates, billboards, etc. for guidance! That just isn't very
                                  creative is it?? LOL! They obviously are so turned off from their
                                  "sensitive" abilities that they grasp at straws in trying to
                                  perceive a really good eck message/story. I know some eckists
                                  want so much to prove that these "signs" work for them that
                                  they will manipulate their actions and responses around these silly
                                  signs--fantasizing quite a bit. Once they convince themselves that
                                  a sign is an eckie message intended for them, they will write their
                                  silly stories and send them to HK who is either too stupid or uncaring
                                  to correct them for their foolishness. Instead he then uses
                                  their stories for his own gain--I suppose he feels that this is what
                                  the chelas want him to do in order to keep them hooked. It is
                                  just a ridiculous cycle of nonsense. The chelas' true reasons for
                                  writing their stories to HK is that they hope he will use their stories
                                  in his talks and/or writings! They become legends in their own minds
                                  and time for getting this attention from HK!! How delusional is that??
                                  But of course HK keeps making money with these recycled and silly
                                  stories . . . the chelas will pay for his attention!! And so it goes on
                                  and on! : )

                                  Mish


                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes, "Signs" are generally effect
                                  > and Not cause. For instance, the
                                  > counselor saw the street sign,
                                  > with her client's name, the next
                                  > day "after" they had met at the
                                  > bar in the restaurant.
                                  >
                                  > I usually rely upon the
                                  > premonition of "nudges"
                                  > or "insights" because I've
                                  > had negative dealings with
                                  > reading things into "signs"
                                  > as an ECKist.
                                  >
                                  > Back in the 1980's I was an
                                  > EK Vahana and Local EK Leader
                                  > looking at houses a local contractor
                                  > was building. The builder used
                                  > a business logo of a Blue Gem Star.
                                  > The street names also sounded
                                  > very "spiritual," or ECKie, like Blue
                                  > Bird Lane or Starlight Way. One,
                                  > really nice, newly built house for
                                  > sale even had a house number
                                  > with 3's and 9's in it like 1359!
                                  >
                                  > Well, it was quite tempting to buy
                                  > this one house, but I didn't! I just
                                  > didn't have the "nudge" to do so.
                                  > I looked beyond the "signs."
                                  > If I had been a true blue mindless
                                  > ECKist I would have jumped at the
                                  > deal (the price was good too)!
                                  >
                                  > Later, I heard that the contractor
                                  > had some problems with quality
                                  > and design issues and was filing
                                  > for bankruptcy.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > drubezarne wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > Prometheus, you quoted Klemp's
                                  > story in which he rehashed someone's
                                  > experience. Part of the quote was,
                                  > "The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                                  > of the young client while driving and
                                  > saw a street sign with the client's name.
                                  > This was a heads up for her."
                                  > >
                                  > When she saw that sign it was what
                                  > Klemp termed "The Awakened Dream".
                                  > >
                                  > This is a prime example of the wrong-
                                  > headed guidance that eckists get
                                  > from this charlatan with the fancy
                                  > title Mahanta, The Living Eck Master.
                                  > Eckists are trained to look for signs
                                  > (awakened dream symbols). These
                                  > are secondary effects produced
                                  > and perceived by the consciousness.
                                  > In actuality, we don't look for effects
                                  > or manifestations of our consciousnes,
                                  > instead we look to the I AM, the primal
                                  > cause of all things.
                                  > >
                                  > Listen to what Neville says about
                                  > signs in Your Faith is Your Fortune.
                                  > He says, "Stop looking for signs.
                                  > Signs follow; they do not precede.
                                  > Begin to reverse the statement,
                                  > "Seeing is believing," to "Believing
                                  > is seeing."
                                  > >
                                  > Regards
                                  > Liska
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > "What Now, Mahanta?" is another
                                  > testimonial to Klemp in this H.I.
                                  > Letter. This drug-alcohol counselor
                                  > (chemical-dependency) had shown
                                  > up at a restaurant the night before
                                  > and had to sit at the bar before her
                                  > table was ready. Then she saw her
                                  > 19 year old "client" arrive. They
                                  > offered them to sit at their table
                                  > and they accepted.
                                  > > >
                                  > The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                                  > of the young client while driving
                                  > and saw a street sign with the client's
                                  > name. This was a heads up for her.
                                  > When she arrived at the office Monday
                                  > she saw the 19 year old client and
                                  > was told that she had planned on
                                  > drinking that night until she was
                                  > surprised to have seen the counselor
                                  > sitting at the bar.
                                  > > >
                                  > In conclusion the storyteller states:
                                  > "We often don't know when and how
                                  > we will be used by the ECK in service
                                  > to another. Sometimes all we have to
                                  > do is ask, 'What Now Mahanta?'"
                                  > > >
                                  > The thing is, these same events happen
                                  > without a Mahanta! It is the connection
                                  > between Soul and Spirit (eck). This
                                  > "SPIRIT" is the same as what some
                                  > call the "ECK."
                                  > > >
                                  > In post # 3783 The Use of Hypnotism
                                  > in Eckankar Liska stated:
                                  > > >
                                  > "I realize that once a person steps away
                                  > from Eckankar, they want to rid themselves
                                  > of all the brainwashing. I still get certain
                                  > words that pop up when I think about God
                                  > such as Sugmad and Mahanta. I know these
                                  > are conditioned words from the subconscious.
                                  > And so, when these unwanted words pop up,
                                  > I have to edit my thoughts and substitute
                                  > non-eck terms for them in order to re-condition
                                  > my subconsciousness."
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus continues:
                                  > I had to do the same! I had some difficulty
                                  > with selecting proper terminology, too, after
                                  > leaving Eckankar because I was so use to calling
                                  > upon the Mahanta for help. It is way too easy
                                  > to always look to someone else (a God) when
                                  > we should look to Self! After all, we humans have
                                  > physical bodies, disease (pain), decay (death)
                                  > and all sorts of limitations and stressors (fears).
                                  > But, as SOUL, we are greater than the appearances.
                                  > > >
                                  > However, ECKists (and others) take back this Divine
                                  > Awareness when they call upon another "image"
                                  > (Mahanta, Jesus, etc.) to intercede for Soul & Spirit.
                                  > It is true brain-washing to become co-dependent
                                  > upon another in order to make decisions or to give
                                  > them credit for the harmony and synchronicity in
                                  > one's life.
                                  > > >
                                  > What ECKists don't see is that others, who do not
                                  > follow Eckankar dogma, have the same things happen
                                  > to them. Others give credit to God or to Jesus or
                                  > Whomever/Whatever versus Mahanta! A few realize
                                  > their own Divinity as Soul and work with letting
                                  > Spirit in or recognizing Its presence. No membership,
                                  > service, money, or hierarchy required... but there
                                  > is responsibility!
                                  > > >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                • drubezarne
                                  Prometheus, that was a good illustration of how signs can be misleading. Klemp s emphasis on paying attention to signs by calling them the Awakened Dream
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                    Prometheus, that was a good illustration of how signs can be misleading.

                                    Klemp's emphasis on paying attention to signs by calling them the
                                    "Awakened Dream Symbols" is just plain wrong and promotes anxieties
                                    and fear among his followers. It is a great example of the falsehood
                                    of his teachings. Instead of leading them to God - the I AM, he has
                                    them focusing on phenomenon and separation. What we see with our
                                    senses is the result of our conditioned consciousness and that of
                                    others. They are effects of the primary causes set in motion by
                                    consciousness.

                                    I've seen how eckists try to find spiritual messages from TV, license
                                    plates, fortune cookies, and so on. All of these practices are
                                    promoted and endorsed by Klemp. Just read how many of his stories deal
                                    with the "Awakened Dream". I've also seen how when eckists place so
                                    much of their attention on outer phenomenon and try to extrapolate
                                    meaning from it, they become nervous and afraid. This in turn causes
                                    them to lose confidence because they are looking for confirmation
                                    outside themselves. Too often the world presents negative messages
                                    (the news for example) and when an eckist thinks these negative
                                    messages are meant for them they become afraid.

                                    The imagination can take us to great spiritual heights, but when Klemp
                                    encourages his followers to use it for interpreting the consequences
                                    of our ideas, actions, and desires he is in effect telling them to
                                    identify with separateness. When one establishes their identity with
                                    anything other than being one enters into a state of slavery because
                                    they feel connected to it.

                                    The Awakened Dream concept is just one example of the type of slavery
                                    promoted by Eckankar. Other forms can be seen in the emphasis on
                                    service (promoting Eckankar) which is basically attachment to the
                                    organization. Another way this religion promotes separateness is by
                                    its emphasis on unreal Eck Masters, a pseudo master calling himself
                                    Mahanta, wisdom temples, and of course the religion itself.

                                    Regards
                                    Liska


                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                    <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > It is really silly how eckists look for signs literally: street signs,
                                    > license plates, billboards, etc. for guidance! That just isn't very
                                    > creative is it?? LOL! They obviously are so turned off from their
                                    > "sensitive" abilities that they grasp at straws in trying to
                                    > perceive a really good eck message/story. I know some eckists
                                    > want so much to prove that these "signs" work for them that
                                    > they will manipulate their actions and responses around these silly
                                    > signs--fantasizing quite a bit. Once they convince themselves that
                                    > a sign is an eckie message intended for them, they will write their
                                    > silly stories and send them to HK who is either too stupid or uncaring
                                    > to correct them for their foolishness. Instead he then uses
                                    > their stories for his own gain--I suppose he feels that this is what
                                    > the chelas want him to do in order to keep them hooked. It is
                                    > just a ridiculous cycle of nonsense. The chelas' true reasons for
                                    > writing their stories to HK is that they hope he will use their stories
                                    > in his talks and/or writings! They become legends in their own minds
                                    > and time for getting this attention from HK!! How delusional is that??
                                    > But of course HK keeps making money with these recycled and silly
                                    > stories . . . the chelas will pay for his attention!! And so it goes on
                                    > and on! : )
                                    >
                                    > Mish
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, "Signs" are generally effect
                                    > > and Not cause. For instance, the
                                    > > counselor saw the street sign,
                                    > > with her client's name, the next
                                    > > day "after" they had met at the
                                    > > bar in the restaurant.
                                    > >
                                    > > I usually rely upon the
                                    > > premonition of "nudges"
                                    > > or "insights" because I've
                                    > > had negative dealings with
                                    > > reading things into "signs"
                                    > > as an ECKist.
                                    > >
                                    > > Back in the 1980's I was an
                                    > > EK Vahana and Local EK Leader
                                    > > looking at houses a local contractor
                                    > > was building. The builder used
                                    > > a business logo of a Blue Gem Star.
                                    > > The street names also sounded
                                    > > very "spiritual," or ECKie, like Blue
                                    > > Bird Lane or Starlight Way. One,
                                    > > really nice, newly built house for
                                    > > sale even had a house number
                                    > > with 3's and 9's in it like 1359!
                                    > >
                                    > > Well, it was quite tempting to buy
                                    > > this one house, but I didn't! I just
                                    > > didn't have the "nudge" to do so.
                                    > > I looked beyond the "signs."
                                    > > If I had been a true blue mindless
                                    > > ECKist I would have jumped at the
                                    > > deal (the price was good too)!
                                    > >
                                    > > Later, I heard that the contractor
                                    > > had some problems with quality
                                    > > and design issues and was filing
                                    > > for bankruptcy.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > drubezarne wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > Prometheus, you quoted Klemp's
                                    > > story in which he rehashed someone's
                                    > > experience. Part of the quote was,
                                    > > "The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                                    > > of the young client while driving and
                                    > > saw a street sign with the client's name.
                                    > > This was a heads up for her."
                                    > > >
                                    > > When she saw that sign it was what
                                    > > Klemp termed "The Awakened Dream".
                                    > > >
                                    > > This is a prime example of the wrong-
                                    > > headed guidance that eckists get
                                    > > from this charlatan with the fancy
                                    > > title Mahanta, The Living Eck Master.
                                    > > Eckists are trained to look for signs
                                    > > (awakened dream symbols). These
                                    > > are secondary effects produced
                                    > > and perceived by the consciousness.
                                    > > In actuality, we don't look for effects
                                    > > or manifestations of our consciousnes,
                                    > > instead we look to the I AM, the primal
                                    > > cause of all things.
                                    > > >
                                    > > Listen to what Neville says about
                                    > > signs in Your Faith is Your Fortune.
                                    > > He says, "Stop looking for signs.
                                    > > Signs follow; they do not precede.
                                    > > Begin to reverse the statement,
                                    > > "Seeing is believing," to "Believing
                                    > > is seeing."
                                    > > >
                                    > > Regards
                                    > > Liska
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > "What Now, Mahanta?" is another
                                    > > testimonial to Klemp in this H.I.
                                    > > Letter. This drug-alcohol counselor
                                    > > (chemical-dependency) had shown
                                    > > up at a restaurant the night before
                                    > > and had to sit at the bar before her
                                    > > table was ready. Then she saw her
                                    > > 19 year old "client" arrive. They
                                    > > offered them to sit at their table
                                    > > and they accepted.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                                    > > of the young client while driving
                                    > > and saw a street sign with the client's
                                    > > name. This was a heads up for her.
                                    > > When she arrived at the office Monday
                                    > > she saw the 19 year old client and
                                    > > was told that she had planned on
                                    > > drinking that night until she was
                                    > > surprised to have seen the counselor
                                    > > sitting at the bar.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > In conclusion the storyteller states:
                                    > > "We often don't know when and how
                                    > > we will be used by the ECK in service
                                    > > to another. Sometimes all we have to
                                    > > do is ask, 'What Now Mahanta?'"
                                    > > > >
                                    > > The thing is, these same events happen
                                    > > without a Mahanta! It is the connection
                                    > > between Soul and Spirit (eck). This
                                    > > "SPIRIT" is the same as what some
                                    > > call the "ECK."
                                    > > > >
                                    > > In post # 3783 The Use of Hypnotism
                                    > > in Eckankar Liska stated:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > "I realize that once a person steps away
                                    > > from Eckankar, they want to rid themselves
                                    > > of all the brainwashing. I still get certain
                                    > > words that pop up when I think about God
                                    > > such as Sugmad and Mahanta. I know these
                                    > > are conditioned words from the subconscious.
                                    > > And so, when these unwanted words pop up,
                                    > > I have to edit my thoughts and substitute
                                    > > non-eck terms for them in order to re-condition
                                    > > my subconsciousness."
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus continues:
                                    > > I had to do the same! I had some difficulty
                                    > > with selecting proper terminology, too, after
                                    > > leaving Eckankar because I was so use to calling
                                    > > upon the Mahanta for help. It is way too easy
                                    > > to always look to someone else (a God) when
                                    > > we should look to Self! After all, we humans have
                                    > > physical bodies, disease (pain), decay (death)
                                    > > and all sorts of limitations and stressors (fears).
                                    > > But, as SOUL, we are greater than the appearances.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > However, ECKists (and others) take back this Divine
                                    > > Awareness when they call upon another "image"
                                    > > (Mahanta, Jesus, etc.) to intercede for Soul & Spirit.
                                    > > It is true brain-washing to become co-dependent
                                    > > upon another in order to make decisions or to give
                                    > > them credit for the harmony and synchronicity in
                                    > > one's life.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > What ECKists don't see is that others, who do not
                                    > > follow Eckankar dogma, have the same things happen
                                    > > to them. Others give credit to God or to Jesus or
                                    > > Whomever/Whatever versus Mahanta! A few realize
                                    > > their own Divinity as Soul and work with letting
                                    > > Spirit in or recognizing Its presence. No membership,
                                    > > service, money, or hierarchy required... but there
                                    > > is responsibility!
                                    > > > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Liska and All, Another thing that needs to be pointed out is that ECKists really don t Know whether they have had a Valid Waking Dream, Awakened
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                      Hello Liska and All,
                                      Another thing that needs to be pointed
                                      out is that ECKists really don't "Know"
                                      whether they have had a "Valid" Waking
                                      Dream, Awakened Dream, Golden Tongued
                                      Wisdom, or Inner Dream Experience!

                                      Their "ECK" experience might be from the
                                      KAL (or his agents) since He is the ruler
                                      over the Physical, Astral, Causal, Mental,
                                      and Etheric Planes, as well as, ALL Religions
                                      and their dogmas! And, Eckankar is a 2nd
                                      and/or 4th Plane Religion!

                                      Look at what happened to Graham Forsyth!
                                      He chanted the HU to challenge the entity
                                      that appeared before him on the INNER
                                      claiming to be one of the NINE SILENT ONES!
                                      This is what ECKists are instructed to do
                                      by Klemp!

                                      The entity passed the test and, thus,
                                      permitted Graham to "temporarily"
                                      hold the ROD of ECK POWER (for some
                                      reason that escapes me). Ford encouraged
                                      Graham to share his experience in an IRO
                                      to Klemp. The "tolerant," "loving" and
                                      "compassionate" Mahanta ended up
                                      chastising Graham, for his Inner experience,
                                      and demoted him to a 1st Initiate!
                                      [All of this info is found in "Confessions
                                      of a God Seeker."]

                                      Therefore, how can any ECKist trust their
                                      Inner EK experiences? Klemp has to Validate
                                      and Verify these to be "Higher Plane" ECK
                                      experiences via his Seminar talks or in print.
                                      Otherwise ECKists are assuming way too much,
                                      and are Second Guessing the Mahanta!
                                      Actually, Klemp doesn't really say that these
                                      "inner" dream experiences, or whatever,
                                      are "Higher Plane" experiences. Agam Des
                                      is located on the earth (Physical Plane.)

                                      This could, also, be why Klemp No Longer
                                      gives Real Names in his stories. This allows
                                      more people to "assume" that HK is talking
                                      of them and of "higher plane" experiences
                                      versus Reality and Truth.

                                      Prometheus

                                      drubezarne wrote:
                                      Prometheus, that was a good illustration
                                      of how signs can be misleading.

                                      Klemp's emphasis on paying attention to
                                      signs by calling them the "Awakened Dream
                                      Symbols" is just plain wrong and promotes
                                      anxieties and fear among his followers.

                                      It is a great example of the falsehood
                                      of his teachings. Instead of leading them
                                      to God - the I AM, he has them focusing
                                      on phenomenon and separation. What
                                      we see with our senses is the result of
                                      our conditioned consciousness and that
                                      of others. They are effects of the primary
                                      causes set in motion by consciousness.

                                      I've seen how eckists try to find spiritual
                                      messages from TV, license plates, fortune
                                      cookies, and so on. All of these practices
                                      are promoted and endorsed by Klemp.
                                      Just read how many of his stories deal
                                      with the "Awakened Dream".

                                      I've also seen how when eckists place so
                                      much of their attention on outer phenomenon
                                      and try to extrapolate meaning from it,
                                      they become nervous and afraid. This in
                                      turn causes them to lose confidence because
                                      they are looking for confirmation outside
                                      themselves. Too often the world presents
                                      negative messages (the news for example)
                                      and when an eckist thinks these negative
                                      messages are meant for them they become
                                      afraid.

                                      The imagination can take us to great spiritual
                                      heights, but when Klemp encourages
                                      his followers to use it for interpreting the
                                      consequences of our ideas, actions, and
                                      desires he is in effect telling them to identify
                                      with separateness. When one establishes their
                                      identity with anything other than being one
                                      enters into a state of slavery because they
                                      feel connected to it.

                                      The Awakened Dream concept is just one
                                      example of the type of slavery promoted
                                      by Eckankar. Other forms can be seen
                                      in the emphasis on service (promoting
                                      Eckankar) which is basically attachment
                                      to the organization. Another way this
                                      religion promotes separateness is by
                                      its emphasis on unreal Eck Masters,
                                      a pseudo master calling himself
                                      Mahanta, wisdom temples, and of
                                      course the religion itself.

                                      Regards
                                      Liska


                                      mishmisha wrote:
                                      >
                                      > It is really silly how eckists look for signs literally:
                                      street signs, license plates, billboards, etc. for guidance!
                                      That just isn't very creative is it?? LOL! They obviously
                                      are so turned off from their "sensitive" abilities that they
                                      grasp at straws in trying to perceive a really good eck
                                      message/story. I know some eckists want so much to
                                      prove that these "signs" work for them that they will
                                      manipulate their actions and responses around these
                                      silly signs--fantasizing quite a bit.

                                      Once they convince themselves that a sign is an eckie
                                      message intended for them, they will write their silly
                                      stories and send them to HK who is either too stupid
                                      or uncaring to correct them for their foolishness.
                                      Instead he then uses their stories for his own gain--
                                      I suppose he feels that this is what the chelas want
                                      him to do in order to keep them hooked. It is just
                                      a ridiculous cycle of nonsense.

                                      The chelas' true reasons for writing their stories
                                      to HK is that they hope he will use their stories
                                      in his talks and/or writings! They become legends
                                      in their own minds and time for getting this attention
                                      from HK!! How delusional is that?? But of course HK
                                      keeps making money with these recycled and silly
                                      stories . . . the chelas will pay for his attention!!
                                      And so it goes on and on! : )
                                      >
                                      Mish
                                      >
                                      >
                                      prometheus wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, "Signs" are generally effect
                                      > > and Not cause. For instance, the
                                      > > counselor saw the street sign,
                                      > > with her client's name, the next
                                      > > day "after" they had met at the
                                      > > bar in the restaurant.
                                      > >
                                      > > I usually rely upon the
                                      > > premonition of "nudges"
                                      > > or "insights" because I've
                                      > > had negative dealings with
                                      > > reading things into "signs"
                                      > > as an ECKist.
                                      > >
                                      > > Back in the 1980's I was an
                                      > > EK Vahana and Local EK Leader
                                      > > looking at houses a local contractor
                                      > > was building. The builder used
                                      > > a business logo of a Blue Gem Star.
                                      > > The street names also sounded
                                      > > very "spiritual," or ECKie, like Blue
                                      > > Bird Lane or Starlight Way. One,
                                      > > really nice, newly built house for
                                      > > sale even had a house number
                                      > > with 3's and 9's in it like 1359!
                                      > >
                                      > > Well, it was quite tempting to buy
                                      > > this one house, but I didn't! I just
                                      > > didn't have the "nudge" to do so.
                                      > > I looked beyond the "signs."
                                      > > If I had been a true blue mindless
                                      > > ECKist I would have jumped at the
                                      > > deal (the price was good too)!
                                      > >
                                      > > Later, I heard that the contractor
                                      > > had some problems with quality
                                      > > and design issues and was filing
                                      > > for bankruptcy.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > drubezarne wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > Prometheus, you quoted Klemp's
                                      > > story in which he rehashed someone's
                                      > > experience. Part of the quote was,
                                      > > "The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                                      > > of the young client while driving and
                                      > > saw a street sign with the client's name.
                                      > > This was a heads up for her."
                                      > > >
                                      > > When she saw that sign it was what
                                      > > Klemp termed "The Awakened Dream".
                                      > > >
                                      > > This is a prime example of the wrong-
                                      > > headed guidance that eckists get
                                      > > from this charlatan with the fancy
                                      > > title Mahanta, The Living Eck Master.
                                      > > Eckists are trained to look for signs
                                      > > (awakened dream symbols). These
                                      > > are secondary effects produced
                                      > > and perceived by the consciousness.
                                      > > In actuality, we don't look for effects
                                      > > or manifestations of our consciousnes,
                                      > > instead we look to the I AM, the primal
                                      > > cause of all things.
                                      > > >
                                      > > Listen to what Neville says about
                                      > > signs in Your Faith is Your Fortune.
                                      > > He says, "Stop looking for signs.
                                      > > Signs follow; they do not precede.
                                      > > Begin to reverse the statement,
                                      > > "Seeing is believing," to "Believing
                                      > > is seeing."
                                      > > >
                                      > > Regards
                                      > > Liska
                                    • drubezarne
                                      Yes, doesn t validation by Klemp also mean more reliance on Klemp and therefore a greater dependency situation for the poor eckist. Since Klemp is too lazy
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                        Yes, doesn't validation by Klemp also mean more reliance on Klemp and
                                        therefore a greater dependency situation for the poor eckist. Since
                                        Klemp is too lazy and/or mentally ill to travel around the world
                                        meeting with his followers to answer questions and give assistance, he
                                        expects his Eck Spiritual Aides (ESA) to do it for him. As a former
                                        ESA and initiator, I met with a number of eckists who were in pain
                                        because the path just wasn't working for them the way it was supposed
                                        to. Some never got their secret word and were upset about it. Others
                                        thought I was going to solve their problems.

                                        When you think about how few appearances Klemp makes and how matter of
                                        fact plus condescending his writings are, it shows quite clearly his
                                        lack of compassion. I'm really surprised that we're not seeing
                                        hundreds of H.I.s jump ship especially with the lack of substance
                                        coming from Klemp's pen and mouth.

                                        Regards
                                        Liska

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello Liska and All,
                                        > Another thing that needs to be pointed
                                        > out is that ECKists really don't "Know"
                                        > whether they have had a "Valid" Waking
                                        > Dream, Awakened Dream, Golden Tongued
                                        > Wisdom, or Inner Dream Experience!
                                        >
                                        > Their "ECK" experience might be from the
                                        > KAL (or his agents) since He is the ruler
                                        > over the Physical, Astral, Causal, Mental,
                                        > and Etheric Planes, as well as, ALL Religions
                                        > and their dogmas! And, Eckankar is a 2nd
                                        > and/or 4th Plane Religion!
                                        >
                                        > Look at what happened to Graham Forsyth!
                                        > He chanted the HU to challenge the entity
                                        > that appeared before him on the INNER
                                        > claiming to be one of the NINE SILENT ONES!
                                        > This is what ECKists are instructed to do
                                        > by Klemp!
                                        >
                                        > The entity passed the test and, thus,
                                        > permitted Graham to "temporarily"
                                        > hold the ROD of ECK POWER (for some
                                        > reason that escapes me). Ford encouraged
                                        > Graham to share his experience in an IRO
                                        > to Klemp. The "tolerant," "loving" and
                                        > "compassionate" Mahanta ended up
                                        > chastising Graham, for his Inner experience,
                                        > and demoted him to a 1st Initiate!
                                        > [All of this info is found in "Confessions
                                        > of a God Seeker."]
                                        >
                                        > Therefore, how can any ECKist trust their
                                        > Inner EK experiences? Klemp has to Validate
                                        > and Verify these to be "Higher Plane" ECK
                                        > experiences via his Seminar talks or in print.
                                        > Otherwise ECKists are assuming way too much,
                                        > and are Second Guessing the Mahanta!
                                        > Actually, Klemp doesn't really say that these
                                        > "inner" dream experiences, or whatever,
                                        > are "Higher Plane" experiences. Agam Des
                                        > is located on the earth (Physical Plane.)
                                        >
                                        > This could, also, be why Klemp No Longer
                                        > gives Real Names in his stories. This allows
                                        > more people to "assume" that HK is talking
                                        > of them and of "higher plane" experiences
                                        > versus Reality and Truth.
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        > drubezarne wrote:
                                        > Prometheus, that was a good illustration
                                        > of how signs can be misleading.
                                        >
                                        > Klemp's emphasis on paying attention to
                                        > signs by calling them the "Awakened Dream
                                        > Symbols" is just plain wrong and promotes
                                        > anxieties and fear among his followers.
                                        >
                                        > It is a great example of the falsehood
                                        > of his teachings. Instead of leading them
                                        > to God - the I AM, he has them focusing
                                        > on phenomenon and separation. What
                                        > we see with our senses is the result of
                                        > our conditioned consciousness and that
                                        > of others. They are effects of the primary
                                        > causes set in motion by consciousness.
                                        >
                                        > I've seen how eckists try to find spiritual
                                        > messages from TV, license plates, fortune
                                        > cookies, and so on. All of these practices
                                        > are promoted and endorsed by Klemp.
                                        > Just read how many of his stories deal
                                        > with the "Awakened Dream".
                                        >
                                        > I've also seen how when eckists place so
                                        > much of their attention on outer phenomenon
                                        > and try to extrapolate meaning from it,
                                        > they become nervous and afraid. This in
                                        > turn causes them to lose confidence because
                                        > they are looking for confirmation outside
                                        > themselves. Too often the world presents
                                        > negative messages (the news for example)
                                        > and when an eckist thinks these negative
                                        > messages are meant for them they become
                                        > afraid.
                                        >
                                        > The imagination can take us to great spiritual
                                        > heights, but when Klemp encourages
                                        > his followers to use it for interpreting the
                                        > consequences of our ideas, actions, and
                                        > desires he is in effect telling them to identify
                                        > with separateness. When one establishes their
                                        > identity with anything other than being one
                                        > enters into a state of slavery because they
                                        > feel connected to it.
                                        >
                                        > The Awakened Dream concept is just one
                                        > example of the type of slavery promoted
                                        > by Eckankar. Other forms can be seen
                                        > in the emphasis on service (promoting
                                        > Eckankar) which is basically attachment
                                        > to the organization. Another way this
                                        > religion promotes separateness is by
                                        > its emphasis on unreal Eck Masters,
                                        > a pseudo master calling himself
                                        > Mahanta, wisdom temples, and of
                                        > course the religion itself.
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        > Liska
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > mishmisha wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > It is really silly how eckists look for signs literally:
                                        > street signs, license plates, billboards, etc. for guidance!
                                        > That just isn't very creative is it?? LOL! They obviously
                                        > are so turned off from their "sensitive" abilities that they
                                        > grasp at straws in trying to perceive a really good eck
                                        > message/story. I know some eckists want so much to
                                        > prove that these "signs" work for them that they will
                                        > manipulate their actions and responses around these
                                        > silly signs--fantasizing quite a bit.
                                        >
                                        > Once they convince themselves that a sign is an eckie
                                        > message intended for them, they will write their silly
                                        > stories and send them to HK who is either too stupid
                                        > or uncaring to correct them for their foolishness.
                                        > Instead he then uses their stories for his own gain--
                                        > I suppose he feels that this is what the chelas want
                                        > him to do in order to keep them hooked. It is just
                                        > a ridiculous cycle of nonsense.
                                        >
                                        > The chelas' true reasons for writing their stories
                                        > to HK is that they hope he will use their stories
                                        > in his talks and/or writings! They become legends
                                        > in their own minds and time for getting this attention
                                        > from HK!! How delusional is that?? But of course HK
                                        > keeps making money with these recycled and silly
                                        > stories . . . the chelas will pay for his attention!!
                                        > And so it goes on and on! : )
                                        > >
                                        > Mish
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > prometheus wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yes, "Signs" are generally effect
                                        > > > and Not cause. For instance, the
                                        > > > counselor saw the street sign,
                                        > > > with her client's name, the next
                                        > > > day "after" they had met at the
                                        > > > bar in the restaurant.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I usually rely upon the
                                        > > > premonition of "nudges"
                                        > > > or "insights" because I've
                                        > > > had negative dealings with
                                        > > > reading things into "signs"
                                        > > > as an ECKist.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Back in the 1980's I was an
                                        > > > EK Vahana and Local EK Leader
                                        > > > looking at houses a local contractor
                                        > > > was building. The builder used
                                        > > > a business logo of a Blue Gem Star.
                                        > > > The street names also sounded
                                        > > > very "spiritual," or ECKie, like Blue
                                        > > > Bird Lane or Starlight Way. One,
                                        > > > really nice, newly built house for
                                        > > > sale even had a house number
                                        > > > with 3's and 9's in it like 1359!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Well, it was quite tempting to buy
                                        > > > this one house, but I didn't! I just
                                        > > > didn't have the "nudge" to do so.
                                        > > > I looked beyond the "signs."
                                        > > > If I had been a true blue mindless
                                        > > > ECKist I would have jumped at the
                                        > > > deal (the price was good too)!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Later, I heard that the contractor
                                        > > > had some problems with quality
                                        > > > and design issues and was filing
                                        > > > for bankruptcy.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > drubezarne wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus, you quoted Klemp's
                                        > > > story in which he rehashed someone's
                                        > > > experience. Part of the quote was,
                                        > > > "The next day (Sat.) she was thinking
                                        > > > of the young client while driving and
                                        > > > saw a street sign with the client's name.
                                        > > > This was a heads up for her."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > When she saw that sign it was what
                                        > > > Klemp termed "The Awakened Dream".
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > This is a prime example of the wrong-
                                        > > > headed guidance that eckists get
                                        > > > from this charlatan with the fancy
                                        > > > title Mahanta, The Living Eck Master.
                                        > > > Eckists are trained to look for signs
                                        > > > (awakened dream symbols). These
                                        > > > are secondary effects produced
                                        > > > and perceived by the consciousness.
                                        > > > In actuality, we don't look for effects
                                        > > > or manifestations of our consciousnes,
                                        > > > instead we look to the I AM, the primal
                                        > > > cause of all things.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > Listen to what Neville says about
                                        > > > signs in Your Faith is Your Fortune.
                                        > > > He says, "Stop looking for signs.
                                        > > > Signs follow; they do not precede.
                                        > > > Begin to reverse the statement,
                                        > > > "Seeing is believing," to "Believing
                                        > > > is seeing."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > Regards
                                        > > > Liska
                                        >
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hello Liska and All, I decided to move this discussion over to this Subject Line. IMO many of Klemp s follower s are as Fearful now as they were before joining
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                          Hello Liska and All,
                                          I decided to move this discussion
                                          over to this Subject Line.

                                          IMO many of Klemp's follower's
                                          are as Fearful now as they were
                                          before joining Eckankar, but in
                                          different ways. Many ECKists are
                                          also somewhat Lazy, Deaf, Dumb,
                                          and Blind. They can't see beyond
                                          their noses, or Initiation rank, and
                                          are in a delusional stupor!

                                          ECKists remain in Eckankar even
                                          though many have varying degrees
                                          of doubt. They have become complacent.
                                          Many are just too gullible, or trusting,
                                          and are resistant to change... like many
                                          Christians. It's only natural for most
                                          ECKists (people) to enjoy social contact
                                          with meetings and gatherings. Where
                                          else do they have to go to socialize with
                                          other like-minded people? And, what
                                          do these people have as a REPLACEMENT
                                          for Eckankar... NO-Thing!

                                          When ECKists leave Eckankar they ONLY
                                          have their SPIRITUAL FREEDOM and:

                                          NO more Rules, Guidelines and Zoas;
                                          NO more Dogma to Study, Memorize, Parrot;
                                          NO Hierarchy with you on the lower end;
                                          NO Required Annual Membership Donation;
                                          NO Middleman/Mahanta (NO co-dependence);
                                          NO more Trainings and Requirements for Positions;
                                          NO more Intros, Open Houses with NO-Shows;
                                          NO more Fake Initiations and Unfulfilled Promises;
                                          NO more Books and EK Materials to purchase $$$;
                                          NO more Seminars to waste vacation days upon;
                                          NO more Vahana work and assholes one is forced
                                          to work with;
                                          NO more Boring Satsangs, Roundtables, and EK
                                          Worship Services, etc, etc.;
                                          NO more EK Friends :-( (real friends will remain) ;-))
                                          NO more Law of Silence!

                                          That's a lot to give up isn't it! And,
                                          look at all of those Years and Money
                                          ECKists have invested too! Look at how
                                          hard it is (under Klemp) to, now, get
                                          that 6th and 7th initiation and ESA and
                                          RESA position! There's just too much to
                                          give up even, although, HK's version of
                                          ECK is NO longer living up to one's original
                                          pre-ECK expectations!

                                          So! What does one do? Well, think about
                                          it. Remember, there were many inner/outer
                                          spiritual experiences happening "before"
                                          Eckankar! And, I guarantee they will get
                                          even better "after" Eckankar! Even if one
                                          didn't have "phenomenal" experiences
                                          Before or During Eckankar I would say
                                          that one will see a positive change and
                                          an expansion in their consciousness
                                          overall once they leave the org! However,
                                          one must be ready to leave. Pay attention
                                          to the redundant nonsense Klemp is saying
                                          and do the research into the archives here
                                          and elsewhere.

                                          Why stay in a religion that isn't living up
                                          to your expectations... that's what our
                                          parents and grandparents did for most
                                          of their lives. The promises and testimonials,
                                          from Eckankar, have all been made and
                                          heard before by many other religionists.
                                          It's a never ending cycle to prevent Soul
                                          from discovering Its own Truth!


                                          Prometheus


                                          Re: Where's HK's Outer Validation
                                          for All Dreams?

                                          Liska wrote:
                                          Yes, doesn't validation by Klemp also
                                          mean more reliance on Klemp and
                                          therefore a greater dependency situation
                                          for the poor eckist.

                                          Since Klemp is too lazy and/or mentally
                                          ill to travel around the world meeting with
                                          his followers to answer questions and
                                          give assistance, he expects his Eck Spiritual
                                          Aides (ESA) to do it for him. As a former
                                          ESA and initiator, I met with a number
                                          of eckists who were in pain because the
                                          path just wasn't working for them the
                                          way it was supposed to. Some never got
                                          their secret word and were upset about it.
                                          Others thought I was going to solve their
                                          problems.

                                          When you think about how few appearances
                                          Klemp makes and how matter of fact plus
                                          condescending his writings are, it shows
                                          quite clearly his lack of compassion. I'm
                                          really surprised that we're not seeing
                                          hundreds of H.I.s jump ship especially
                                          with the lack of substance coming from
                                          Klemp's pen and mouth.

                                          Regards
                                          Liska

                                          prometheus wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Liska and All,
                                          > Another thing that needs to be pointed
                                          > out is that ECKists really don't "Know"
                                          > whether they have had a "Valid" Waking
                                          > Dream, Awakened Dream, Golden Tongued
                                          > Wisdom, or Inner Dream Experience!
                                          >
                                          > Their "ECK" experience might be from the
                                          > KAL (or his agents) since He is the ruler
                                          > over the Physical, Astral, Causal, Mental,
                                          > and Etheric Planes, as well as, ALL Religions
                                          > and their dogmas! And, Eckankar is a 2nd
                                          > and/or 4th Plane Religion!
                                          >
                                          > Look at what happened to Graham Forsyth!
                                          > He chanted the HU to challenge the entity
                                          > that appeared before him on the INNER
                                          > claiming to be one of the NINE SILENT ONES!
                                          > This is what ECKists are instructed to do
                                          > by Klemp!
                                          >
                                          > The entity passed the test and, thus,
                                          > permitted Graham to "temporarily"
                                          > hold the ROD of ECK POWER (for some
                                          > reason that escapes me). Ford encouraged
                                          > Graham to share his experience in an IRO
                                          > to Klemp. The "tolerant," "loving" and
                                          > "compassionate" Mahanta ended up
                                          > chastising Graham, for his Inner experience,
                                          > and demoted him to a 1st Initiate!
                                          > [All of this info is found in "Confessions
                                          > of a God Seeker."]
                                          >
                                          > Therefore, how can any ECKist trust their
                                          > Inner EK experiences? Klemp has to Validate
                                          > and Verify these to be "Higher Plane" ECK
                                          > experiences via his Seminar talks or in print.
                                          > Otherwise ECKists are assuming way too much,
                                          > and are Second Guessing the Mahanta!
                                          > Actually, Klemp doesn't really say that these
                                          > "inner" dream experiences, or whatever,
                                          > are "Higher Plane" experiences. Agam Des
                                          > is located on the earth (Physical Plane.)
                                          >
                                          > This could, also, be why Klemp No Longer
                                          > gives Real Names in his stories. This allows
                                          > more people to "assume" that HK is talking
                                          > of them and of "higher plane" experiences
                                          > versus Reality and Truth.
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >

                                          prometheus wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Klemp's TWEM was written in 2005
                                          > for, basically, two reasons. One was
                                          > to promote Joan to EK Master status
                                          > (2008?), and the other was to make
                                          > more money (royalties) from the book.
                                          > HK used the book to "tweak" descriptions
                                          > of the main line of fictitious EK Masters
                                          > while making preparation for Joan's
                                          > entrance as an 11th or 12th.
                                          >
                                          > It's true that Klemp, once again,
                                          > used old material in this new book.
                                          > The Fubbi and Columbus story was
                                          > a rewrite of the FALL 1984 Wisdom
                                          > Note!
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I too think that Klemp is not
                                          > only lazy but arrogant as well! Does
                                          > he really need to try, all that hard,
                                          > when he promotes the use of the
                                          > "imagination" as he does? No, he
                                          > just sits back and pretends! It's
                                          > ever so easy when one doesn't
                                          > even have to show up on a daily
                                          > basis. Klemp's too busy with
                                          > "inner" workings and researching
                                          > that next book of redundant
                                          > information with chelas' stories.
                                          >
                                          > Why does the great "Mahanta"
                                          > need to refer ECKists to the
                                          > poetry of RUMI? Rumi followed,
                                          > wrote about, and was inspired
                                          > by a 2nd or 4th Plane God and
                                          > this is the KAL or Satan! Just
                                          > look at Autobiography of a
                                          > Modern Prophet pg. 385.
                                          > Why can't Klemp write poetry
                                          > about the SUGMAD that would
                                          > put Rumi's poetry to shame?
                                          > Can't Klemp write anything
                                          > more enlightening and inspiring?
                                          > Apparently Not!
                                          >
                                          > After all of these years (27) it is
                                          > really No longer necessary for Klemp
                                          > to try and sound more spiritual or
                                          > enlightened. Klemp's K.I.S.S. (Keep
                                          > It Simple Stupid) routine is his ruse
                                          > for everything he does. This is why
                                          > HK's talks and books sound (are)
                                          > dumbed down. Even the H.I. Letter
                                          > has nothing of "high" spiritual value.
                                          >
                                          > The test of time has proven that
                                          > Klemp is a fraud and that Eckankar
                                          > is just another religion!
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          > drubezarne wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          > I think his mental disease has gotten
                                          > worse over the years. At first he at least
                                          > made an effort to write books and discourses,
                                          > although he did pad them heavily with
                                          > stories from his followers. Back then he
                                          > also tried to interpret the stories. It's been
                                          > a while now since he wrote a book. His
                                          > Eckankar staff keeps recycling his talks
                                          > and old writings under new titles just
                                          > so they can have something new to sell.
                                          > >
                                          > Either his mental disease debilitates him
                                          > or he's just plain lazy because all he does
                                          > now is rehash stories from his eckists without
                                          > even trying to interpret the meaning behind
                                          > them. Wouldn't you think that anybody with
                                          > a half brain would start to realize that Klemp
                                          > isn't the God being they used to think he was?
                                          > All they have to do is turn on the TV and listen
                                          > to some new age televangelical to hear more
                                          > useful information. That's how bad it's gotten
                                          > in Eckankar. And so, those of us participating
                                          > here keep yelling to the comatose eckists
                                          > who somehow sleepwalked onto this forum
                                          > to "Wake Up Already!"
                                          > >
                                          > Regards
                                          > Liska
                                          >
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Al Radzik wrote: Harold Klemp is a dimwitted inarticulate bumbling nebbish. He lacks coherence and cohesion in his talks and his books. That sheepish little
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 13, 2008
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                                            Al Radzik wrote:
                                            Harold Klemp is a dimwitted inarticulate
                                            bumbling nebbish. He lacks coherence
                                            and cohesion in his talks and his books.
                                            That sheepish little voice doesn't help
                                            either. And they call this dork the
                                            "Mahanta", the human embodiment of the
                                            ECK? Looks can be deceiving but after
                                            looking at Harry and listening to his
                                            monotone ramblings possessing absolutely
                                            nothing of spiritual content, he needs to
                                            take the money he stole from Eckankar's
                                            members and go for a lap dance at a strip
                                            club while chugging Jack Daniels and smoking
                                            some high grade weed. That ought to put
                                            the little mouse in a different state of
                                            consciousness!

                                            Yow!!

                                            prometheus wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Liska,
                                            > Thanks for posting Klemp's
                                            > slanted interpretation to these
                                            > two stories from chela letters/
                                            > Initiate Reports.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > It does seem odd that the one
                                            > person is new to Eckankar and
                                            > a lower initiate. So, Why is it
                                            > necessary to place his testimonial
                                            > of faith (or any) in the H.I. Letter?
                                            > I guess it's to show the H.I.s that
                                            > Eckankar really works and still works
                                            > for some people... even a RESA (Mel)!
                                            >
                                            > I'll make more comments and give
                                            > my perspective to Klemp's stories
                                            > below.
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            > drubezarne wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Here's the latest H.I. Letter for your
                                            > amusement. It's still the same old line.
                                            > Can you believe this is meant for people
                                            > who are supposed to have achieved Self
                                            > Realization and getting close to God
                                            > Realization?
                                            >
                                            > These letters are supposed to be so full
                                            > of spiritual wisdom, lower initiates aren't
                                            > allowed to see them. Give me a break! At
                                            > the end, he shows his laziness by not even
                                            > bothering to interpret the lessons.
                                            >
                                            > Have fun with this one. I can't wait
                                            > to see your comments...
                                            > **********************************
                                            > HK: 'Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
                                            >
                                            > It is always a pleasure to tell you about
                                            > people who have met an ECK Master and
                                            > how that contact raised their level of spiritual
                                            > consciousness.
                                            >
                                            > Each story embodies a lesson. WHATEVER
                                            > lesson each of you gleans from it may be
                                            > worlds away from the insights of another
                                            > chela.
                                            >
                                            > ME: This is quite a disclaimer isn't it!
                                            > So, if a RESA gets a different INSIGHT
                                            > than another RESA then that's okay?
                                            > But, aren't these Mental Plane words
                                            > and thoughts being used? And, aren't
                                            > these "stories" being told actually just
                                            > SUBJECTIVE experiences! It could be
                                            > that these "stories" are fictional or are
                                            > the delusions of a psychologically
                                            > dysfunctional individual... like Klemp!
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > HK: So strap on your wings, and let's
                                            > see where you fly!
                                            >
                                            > ME: Chickens can't fly very far can they!
                                            > ECKists thought they were eagles or eaglets
                                            > before Klemp's "the Fox outside the ECK
                                            > Henhouse" comment.
                                            >
                                            > HK: In the first instance, "Andy" tells how
                                            > he found ECKANKAR a few short years ago,
                                            > and the way it changed him. He had lived
                                            > and worked in New York City for many years.
                                            > Then 9/11 struck. A short while later, a
                                            > second shock: he arrived at his workplace
                                            > to find the doors padlocked. Out of business!
                                            >
                                            > ME: I'll bet losing a job happens to a lot
                                            > of people. Look at what happened to those
                                            > in the Twin Towers! Why didn't the All
                                            > Powerful Mahanta protect them? If Fubbi
                                            > can influence Columbus to find protein so
                                            > that Europeans will have more time to contemplate
                                            > then what has Klemp done on a grand scale
                                            > to benefit humanity!
                                            >
                                            > HK: Jobs were scarce; his savings ran out.
                                            > Unable to pay rent, he was evicted from
                                            > his apartment and lived in a homeless
                                            > shelter. It was during these dark days
                                            > that he found ECKANKAR.
                                            >
                                            > ME: Was he required to pay the full annual
                                            > membership donation? The key word here
                                            > is DONATION. Therefore, anyone can GIVE
                                            > any amount of money. If Not Eckankar can
                                            > lose its TAX EXEMPT status. Of course, you
                                            > won't get that next pink slip if you don't
                                            > pay the expected coin AND do the service!
                                            >
                                            > HK: One night, Andy had a vivid dream.
                                            > A stranger motioned to him, with a
                                            > gentle wave of the hand, to follow him
                                            > to paradise. Andy reports that this meeting
                                            > ignited a fireball in his stomach. Only
                                            > a few days hence, he found a flyer on
                                            > a bulletin board announcing an ECKANKAR
                                            > event. ECKists there gave him a very warm
                                            > welcome. He knew he was home; he had
                                            > found what he had been searching for.
                                            >
                                            > ME: That's odd! Andy doesn't give a
                                            > description of this "stranger." Why is that?
                                            >
                                            > As for his stomach... maybe that was
                                            > a warning from the real SPIRIT versus
                                            > the distorted Eckankar (copyrighted)
                                            > version called "eck."
                                            >
                                            > HK: The very next evening, Andy was
                                            > off to the ECK center. The ECKists welcomed
                                            > him with open arms. They invited him
                                            > to view the videos and browse the library.
                                            >
                                            > ME: Andy was lucky(?) that he found
                                            > some friendly faces. I always had to
                                            > "suggest" that the presiding EK Cleric
                                            > (and others) go over and talk to the
                                            > newcomers and to get other H.I.s to
                                            > do the same. I tried to touch base with
                                            > everyone. The more active ECKists usually
                                            > congregated around one another and
                                            > chatted it up without paying attention
                                            > to newbies, or to the seldom seen chelas.
                                            >
                                            > HK: A surprise awaited him. On a wall
                                            > hung a picture of the man who had called
                                            > to him in that dream. It was Fubbi Quantz!
                                            > Most afternoons that summer, Andy saw
                                            > himself visiting the ECK center.
                                            >
                                            > ME: It seems that Andy didn't have much
                                            > of a life! I'm surprised that the NYC ECK
                                            > Center was opened that often! Most aren't!
                                            > Actually, 99% aren't open "most afternoons"
                                            > in the Summer or during the rest of the year!
                                            >
                                            > HK: He says, "Although I found myself to
                                            > be destitute for the first time in my life,
                                            > I felt like the wealthiest man on earth!"
                                            >
                                            > ME: Hang onto that feeling, Andy, because
                                            > Klemp will steal that, too, away from you.
                                            >
                                            > HK: Paradise had found him, he continues.
                                            > The Living ECK Master had found him,
                                            > and he had found himself. And so,
                                            > Andy became a member of ECKANKAR.
                                            > That was another big change. The next
                                            > one put him on his feet financially again:
                                            > he moved to Chicago. There, a job opened
                                            > up. His ECKANKAR membership materials,
                                            > along with his first discourse, soon came
                                            > in the mail.
                                            >
                                            > ME: Doesn't Klemp's first sentence sound odd.
                                            > What's with the "he continues?" Also, Klemp
                                            > is saying that both "Paradise" and the "LEM"
                                            > "had found him."
                                            >
                                            > HK: Andy considers his new chela
                                            > membership card to be his official
                                            > birth certificate. And so it is.
                                            >
                                            > ME: LOL! Try using that "ANNUAL"
                                            > membership card in place of a birth
                                            > certificate! Besides, when was this
                                            > Soul born? Isn't that more important
                                            > than a card or a certificate!
                                            >
                                            > HK: Now we will take a case from
                                            > a side of SERVICE in ECKANKAR.
                                            > Andy told us of his early days,
                                            > when he first made contact with
                                            > the teachings of Light and Sound.
                                            > (Since then, he has begun to serve
                                            > too. As a seeker, he was served.
                                            > Now he serves others.)
                                            >
                                            > ME: So, Klemp is preparing us for
                                            > a new story... one with a longtime
                                            > ECKist who is in a big SERVICE and
                                            > POWER position. I wonder if Andy
                                            > was told that "service" (and more
                                            > coin) will be expected of him before
                                            > too long?
                                            >
                                            > HK: "Mel" is on the other end of
                                            > the spectrum, in terms of service.
                                            > He is a RESA.
                                            >
                                            > ME: Wait a minute Harry! In the
                                            > beginning of this article you said
                                            > it was a pleasure to tell about "people"
                                            > who have met an ECK Master and
                                            > how this "contact raised their level
                                            > of spiritual consciousness." Isn't
                                            > it possible that a lower initiate
                                            > is Higher in consciousness than
                                            > a High Initiate!
                                            >
                                            > Klemp has even stated: "It may
                                            > surprise a FIFTH INITIATE to find
                                            > that after several years of absence
                                            > from discourse study, he has slipped
                                            > back to the FOURTH LEVEL." [The
                                            > Wisdom Notes. WINTER 1987]
                                            > When did Klemp last write a discourse?
                                            > Maybe by Not "writing" versus chelas
                                            > Not "reading" a discourse that he, too,
                                            > has "slipped" back... to the 7th level!
                                            >
                                            > HK: Shortly before he received news
                                            > of his appointment, Mel, like Andy,
                                            > had a vivid dream. He had, in this
                                            > dream, gone to visit friends in a
                                            > small town of 1,200. A town so
                                            > small, he found it hard to believe
                                            > he had actually lost his car. Curiosity
                                            > intact, he began to explore the streets.
                                            > He came upon a Middle Eastern bazaar.
                                            >
                                            > ME: But, did "Mel" realize that he was
                                            > dreaming. Klemp only says that this
                                            > was a "vivid" dream and not a "lucid"
                                            > dream. Aren't 7ths, and RESAs especially,
                                            > supposed to be far more aware and in
                                            > total consciousness while dreaming!
                                            > I wonder how many EK chelas lower
                                            > in rank, as well as, non-ECKists have
                                            > even greater dream experiences... millions!
                                            >
                                            > HK: The place was teeming with shoppers,
                                            > whom colorful vendors tried to attract
                                            > with both everyday and exotic items.
                                            >
                                            > ME: It would be nice to have more details
                                            > of the colors and the items sold and of
                                            > the smells and feeling etc.! Why aren't there
                                            > more details if this is such a "vivid" dream.
                                            >
                                            > HK: Mel continued his explorations. Soon
                                            > his feet carried him to a large, spacious
                                            > building, the noise of the bazaar faded
                                            > in the distance. A BALD man came out
                                            > of the building. "I am so glad you are
                                            > here," he said. "Come in, and I will show
                                            > you what you can do to help."
                                            >
                                            > ME: Is every bald guy Yaubl? Oh wait,
                                            > that other bald guy mentioned in the
                                            > WINTER 1987 Wisdom Notes was SAT
                                            > NAM!
                                            >
                                            > HK: Yaubl Sacabi, for that was indeed
                                            > Mel's host, showed him two very large,
                                            > round, etched-bronze pieces of art.
                                            >
                                            > ME: Well, since Yaubl hangs out at
                                            > the Agam Des temple on the earth
                                            > plane I can see that there would be
                                            > physical possessions like bronze
                                            > art.
                                            >
                                            > HK: In the FIRST was the figure of
                                            > a man, arms and legs stretched out,
                                            > a man detached from the world he
                                            > lived in Self-Realization.
                                            >
                                            > The SECOND piece of art revealed a
                                            > man standing quietly in the worlds
                                            > of God, ready and willing to SERVE
                                            > as the ECK's will was to be done.
                                            >
                                            > ME: Is this SERVICE thing something
                                            > new? And, Why haven't EK artists,
                                            > or Klemp, replicated these bronze
                                            > etchings for the EK Museum? Maybe
                                            > they will be on display at the 2008
                                            > EWWS!
                                            >
                                            > HK: This was God-Realization! Mel
                                            > recognized that these two precise
                                            > etchings showed so well the two main
                                            > goals of every ECK chela.
                                            >
                                            > ME: I would hope that a 7th initiate
                                            > RESA would be able to figure out that
                                            > SELF & GOD REALIZATION are GOALS.
                                            > BUT, there's too much focus on these
                                            > "Goals" and Not upon living life. Klemp
                                            > is promoting SERVICE because he needs
                                            > more money!
                                            >
                                            > BTW-The SECOND etching should have
                                            > shown a man Jumping Off a Bridge!
                                            > A third could have shown him Stripping
                                            > at an Airport! And, doesn't the KAL
                                            > control the Lower Worlds including
                                            > Agam Des where Yaubl resides!
                                            >
                                            > HK: Yaubl said, "Would you deliver them
                                            > for me?"
                                            >
                                            > ME: Will "MEL" be the next LEM/Mahanta?
                                            > Yaubl is having Mel deliver GOD-REALIZATION
                                            > to ECK Chelas instead of Klemp! After all,
                                            > Yaubl is a senior member of the Vairagi
                                            > Order while Klemp is the junior member!
                                            >
                                            > HK: As Mel was en route to make the
                                            > delivery, he pondered the fact that
                                            > everything done in behalf of the
                                            > ECK Masters was a sacred act.
                                            >
                                            > ME: Let me get this right. Yaubl made
                                            > the delivery, to Mel, of these "bronze-
                                            > etchings" depicting the TWO "MAIN"
                                            > GOALS for ECKists to experience/see
                                            > GOD-REALIZATION (via Service).
                                            >
                                            > Next, MEL made the "delivery" in a letter/
                                            > HIRO to Klemp and now Klemp is making
                                            > another "delivery" via snail mail for his
                                            > chelas to "see" and act upon. Catch-22!
                                            >
                                            > Does "Mel" really exist? This is just
                                            > another scam by Klemp!
                                            >
                                            > Anyway, when these dreams always lead
                                            > back to SERVICE (like sitting in a empty
                                            > ECK Center for an Open House or doing
                                            > an Intro to a few new people who never
                                            > join) it shows people that Klemp is conning
                                            > us. This has nothing to do with the real/
                                            > original reasons for joining Eckankar in
                                            > the first place! This kind of "Service" leads
                                            > nowhere spiritually. It's what religions do!
                                            >
                                            > HK: A man at the appointed place
                                            > invited him in. Inside, on a table,
                                            > stood a bronze sculpture of a man
                                            > bound to confused and seemingly
                                            > unconnected events. This man
                                            > was clearly struggling. He was
                                            > desperate to be free from that which
                                            > bound him.
                                            >
                                            > ME: Perhaps, it was the requirements
                                            > of Klemp's Religious EK Hierarchy that
                                            > "bound" him!
                                            >
                                            > I know that after I finally cut the ties
                                            > and left Eckankar that I had several
                                            > truly God-Realized experiences.
                                            >
                                            > The first removed what seemed like the
                                            > weight of the world from my shoulders.
                                            > The experience was of total, Soul, freedom!
                                            > The clarity of mind and the insights given
                                            > were incredible! And, later, came contentment
                                            > of a level that was of the No-Thing Universe
                                            > and of just BEING. Anyway, when one throws
                                            > out those EK Initiations, Guidelines, Zoas,
                                            > spoken & unspoken rules and procedures
                                            > and requirements for this or that does one
                                            > finally see the garbage that accumulated
                                            > over the years!
                                            >
                                            > HK: "There is more," he said, "but I don't
                                            > know how to find the next step."
                                            > Mel then handed him Yaubl Sacabi's
                                            > two gifts. The man was deeply touched.
                                            > Mel left, but looking back, he saw the
                                            > other looking at his "ANSWERS."
                                            >
                                            > ME: LOL! Mel hands this guy two bronze
                                            > etchings that are supposed to depict
                                            > Self & God Realization. I guess that the
                                            > next step was for the guy to Join Eckankar
                                            > and Pay his Annual Membership...
                                            > to study discourses, buy more and more
                                            > books, and do the Service and after about
                                            > 15-18 years they may become a 5th
                                            > Initiate. But when does an ECKist reach
                                            > GOD-REALIZATION? At what "level" does
                                            > a RESA become God-Realized? Klemp's
                                            > EK Lexicon shows that a NINTH is now
                                            > on the AGAM LOK where AGAM PURUSHA
                                            > rules... and this is the SUGMAD.
                                            >
                                            > HK: There are several important lessons
                                            > in this story too. I am sure you will CATCH
                                            > them."
                                            >
                                            > ME: The only thing to "catch" is Klemp's
                                            > CATCH-22 spin! There is more given for
                                            > the Lower Level Initiates in The Mystic World!
                                            > Klemp cannot write anything on his own.
                                            > He cannot use his own stories and his own
                                            > words... like Twitchell. Klemp quotes from
                                            > the Shariyats, the Christian Bible, or from
                                            > Rumi, and others. But what Spiritual Wisdom
                                            > is actually attributed to Klemp? Where's
                                            > Klemp's poetry or Shariyat? He's empty
                                            > of anything "spiritual" and uses the words
                                            > and stories of others in order to remain in
                                            > office! He's the Top Dog and no one is to
                                            > question his nonsense, and HK never takes
                                            > responsibility! This is the way of the narcissist!
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
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