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Re: The Use of Hypnotism in Eckankar

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  • mishmisha9
    Hello, Liska! In answer to your question: I do have a question, Mish. You said, I do agree with your comments about meditation when done properly can be one
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 6, 2008
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      Hello, Liska!

      In answer to your question:
      "I do have a question, Mish. You said, 'I do agree with your comments
      about meditation when done properly can be one way to connect with
      God.' Did you mean there are other ways such as knowing that God is
      with you always? If so, I would have to say yes because, what do I
      know, there could be people who have a natural talent for such without
      having to work at it by meditating."

      Yes, of course! First of all, not everyone meditates, but I wouldn't say
      they are disconnected from God. Actually, I think we are always
      connected to God from our beginning to forever. This is why it is
      ridiculous to think one needs to have an intermediary to help one
      connect to God.

      What Klemp instructs in regard to goals of initiations and consciousness
      are just distractions and impediments. The real Truth lies in the Journey
      which is the true goal. Perhaps, living life is the only valid meditation.

      Mish





      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne" <drubezarne@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Mish
      >
      > Yes, those pictures of Klemp that are always on display and that
      > eckists are told are mandatory at every Eckankar event - no matter how
      > minor just confirm Klemp's narcissism and need to be worshipped.
      > People don't think of the deeper implications of displaying his
      > pictures. They just think they have to do it because they were told to
      > do so by the Eckankar guidelines (rules actually). Even if a group of
      > eckists meet at someone's home there has to be a picture of Klemp in a
      > visible location for all to see. Big brother's arm has a long reach.
      > He reinforces this by his claim that he knows all that goes on in
      > every person's heart.
      >
      > The pictures of the make-believe Eck Masters only fortify his position
      > as High Muckety-Muck because he likes to remind his followers that he
      > is the head of this fictitious clan. Klemp has even gone so far as to
      > say due to the ever evolving nature of life, an Eck Master, today, is
      > greater than any in the past. How's that for humility! Well, I guess
      > he might be right because none existed before Paul Twitchell and
      > Darwin Gross. When measured against those two how can he lose?
      >
      > I do have a question, Mish. You said, "I do agree with your comments
      > about meditation when done properly can be one way to connect with
      > God." Did you mean there are other ways such as knowing that God is
      > with you always? If so, I would have to say yes because, what do I
      > know, there could be people who have a natural talent for such without
      > having to work at it by meditating.
      >
      > Regards
      > Liska
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
      > >
      > > "In Those Wonderful ECK Masters," Klemp repeatedly
      > > instructs chelas to visualize the bogus eck masters.
      > > That is why it is so important for good eckists to purchase
      > > those pics as well as those of HK. When chelas look to
      > > visualize such beings and then in fact conjure them up
      > > in meditation, then Klemp and his chelsas proclaim this
      > > as proof of the validity of the eck masters and the eckankar
      > > teachings. This is their only proof!!
      > >
      > > I do agree with your comments about meditation when done
      > > properly can be one way to connect with God. Thanks for
      > > clarifying that.
      > >
      > > Mish
      > >
      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
      > <drubezarne@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I realize that some might view meditation/contemplation as a form of
      > > > self-hypnosis. In many of the Eckankar spiritual exercises, meditation
      > > > becomes self-hypnosis because its followers are asked to visualize the
      > > > current leader of Eckankar, Harold Klemp. This is the wrong use of a
      > > > God given gift because it is being subverted for the aggrandizement of
      > > > a corrupt leader.
      > > >
      > > > Repeated visualization and wish fulfillment of Harold Klemp during
      > > > meditation will eventually bring about dreams or visions of that
      > > > person. Using autosuggestion like this will condition the
      > > > consciousness to accept something that is not true.
      > > >
      > > > Meditation when practiced correctly by placing the attention on God
      > > > and not some person, can eventually lead to firsthand experiences with
      > > > God. Neville Goddard said the bible should be read symbolically and
      > > > never literally. There are a few quotes he has used from it that might
      > > > be applicable here. "He that travels alone travels far" and "salute no
      > > > man as you pass along the highway".
      > > >
      > > > When a corrupt leader like Klemp misleads his followers to use
      > > > meditation for his own selfish purposes he is inviting all kinds of
      > > > troubles for himself and his worshippers.
      > > >
      > > > Regards
      > > > Liska
      > > >
      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      > > > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > This is very true. I noticed how much the eck spiritual
      > > > > exercises are really just brain-washing techniques that
      > > > > Klemp instructs his chelas to use. Fortunately for me, when
      > > > > I attempted these exercises while a member, I usually fell
      > > > > asleep or was making up shopping lists or whatever in my
      > > > > mind . . .obviously I was receiving some "real" protection--
      > > > > to not become delusional and believe in the fake mahanta!
      > > > >
      > > > > Incorporated in Klemp's books are those brainwashing
      > > > > spiritual exercises! These give spirituality a bad rap! : )
      > > > >
      > > > > Mish
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
      > > > <drubezarne@>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Prometheus and all, do you know the biggest obstacle to convincing
      > > > > > eckists they are chasing an illusion?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It is their conviction that their inner experiences - mostly
      > dreams
      > > > > > are the proof of the existence of Eck Masters and the
      > omniscience of
      > > > > > Harold Klemp. They will say something to the effect, "I believe in
      > > > > > Harold Klemp and the Eck teachings because I have had inner
      > > > > > experiences that prove they really exist!"
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Eckankar like so many other religions, cults, or whatever you
      > want to
      > > > > > call them influence people by training them to become
      > accustomed to
      > > > > > their doctrine and as a result accept these false beliefs as
      > truth.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > After a person's judgement is controlled by that group's
      > particular
      > > > > > bias, he/she start to see and believe things according to their
      > > > > > controlled state of consciousness.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In the case of Eckankar, they believe in the illusions of
      > mystical Eck
      > > > > > Masters and the unlimited power of their Eckankar leader, Harold
      > > > > > Klemp. This belief system goes to the very heart of their
      > > > > > subconsciousness and as a result they will have dreams of the Eck
      > > > > > Masters, Harold Klemp, and Wisdom Temples.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > People don't realize these are just manifestations of their
      > state of
      > > > > > consciousness because they have allowed someone else to
      > control their
      > > > > > ideology.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It is a form of hypnotism started by Paul Twitchell who
      > trained under
      > > > > > Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. Ron Hubbard learned
      > all about
      > > > > > hypnotism from the writings of Emile Coue.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Just google Emile Coue and you will find how influential his
      > work was
      > > > > > in the area of autosuggestion.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Here's just one link that shows Coue's influence on the
      > formation of
      > > > > > Scientology.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://www.lermanet.com/exit/hubbard-the-hypnotist2.htm
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Regards
      > > > > > Liska
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Ingrid
      Hi Liska   I think we are always connected to the Life Source I don t call it God any more, I call it just Life. And it s full of miracles ... I don t
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 8, 2008
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        Hi Liska

         

        I think we are always connected to the Life Source
        I don't call it God any more, I call it just Life.
        And it's full of miracles ... I don't meditate (or contemplate or whatever) any more (even if I agree that it's good to go still from time to time) and  I still get the gifts of life all the time ... this is so great ...
        Ingrid

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 10:16:44 PM
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Use of Hypnotism in Eckankar

        Mish

        Yes, those pictures of Klemp that are always on display and that
        eckists are told are mandatory at every Eckankar event - no matter how
        minor just confirm Klemp's narcissism and need to be worshipped.
        People don't think of the deeper implications of displaying his
        pictures. They just think they have to do it because they were told to
        do so by the Eckankar guidelines (rules actually). Even if a group of
        eckists meet at someone's home there has to be a picture of Klemp in a
        visible location for all to see. Big brother's arm has a long reach.
        He reinforces this by his claim that he knows all that goes on in
        every person's heart.

        The pictures of the make-believe Eck Masters only fortify his position
        as High Muckety-Muck because he likes to remind his followers that he
        is the head of this fictitious clan. Klemp has even gone so far as to
        say due to the ever evolving nature of life, an Eck Master, today, is
        greater than any in the past. How's that for humility! Well, I guess
        he might be right because none existed before Paul Twitchell and
        Darwin Gross. When measured against those two how can he lose?

        I do have a question, Mish. You said, "I do agree with your comments
        about meditation when done properly can be one way to connect with
        God." Did you mean there are other ways such as knowing that God is
        with you always? If so, I would have to say yes because, what do I
        know, there could be people who have a natural talent for such without
        having to work at it by meditating.

        Regards
        Liska

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mishmisha9"
        <mishmisha9@ ...> wrote:

        >
        > "In Those Wonderful ECK Masters," Klemp
        repeatedly
        > instructs chelas to visualize the bogus eck masters.
        > That is why it is so important for good eckists to purchase
        > those pics as well as those of HK. When chelas look to
        > visualize such beings and then in fact conjure them up
        > in meditation, then Klemp and his chelsas proclaim this
        > as proof of the validity of the eck masters and the eckankar
        > teachings. This is their only proof!!
        >
        > I do agree with your comments about meditation when done
        > properly can be one way to connect with God. Thanks for
        > clarifying that.
        >
        > Mish
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "drubezarne"
        <drubezarne@ >
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > I realize that some might
        view meditation/contempl ation as a form of
        > > self-hypnosis. In many of the Eckankar spiritual exercises, meditation
        > > becomes self-hypnosis because its followers are asked to visualize the
        > > current leader of Eckankar, Harold Klemp. This is the wrong use of a
        > > God given gift because it is being subverted for the aggrandizement of
        > > a corrupt leader.
        > >
        > > Repeated visualization and wish fulfillment of Harold Klemp during
        > > meditation will eventually bring about dreams or visions of that
        > > person. Using autosuggestion like this will condition the
        > > consciousness to accept something that is not true.
        > >
        > > Meditation when practiced correctly by placing the attention on God
        > > and not some person, can eventually lead to firsthand experiences with
        > > God. Neville Goddard said the bible should be read
        symbolically and
        > > never literally. There are a few quotes he has used from it that might
        > > be applicable here. "He that travels alone travels far" and "salute no
        > > man as you pass along the highway".
        > >
        > > When a corrupt leader like Klemp misleads his followers to use
        > > meditation for his own selfish purposes he is inviting all kinds of
        > > troubles for himself and his worshippers.
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > Liska
        > >
        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mishmisha9"
        > > <mishmisha9@ > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > This is very true. I noticed how much the eck spiritual
        > > > exercises are really just brain-washing techniques
        that
        > > > Klemp instructs his chelas to use. Fortunately for me, when
        > > > I attempted these exercises while a member, I usually fell
        > > > asleep or was making up shopping lists or whatever in my
        > > > mind . . .obviously I was receiving some "real" protection--
        > > > to not become delusional and believe in the fake mahanta!
        > > >
        > > > Incorporated in Klemp's books are those brainwashing
        > > > spiritual exercises! These give spirituality a bad rap! : )
        > > >
        > > > Mish
        > > >
        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "drubezarne"
        > > <drubezarne@ >
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        Prometheus and all, do you know the biggest obstacle to convincing
        > > > > eckists they are chasing an illusion?
        > > > >
        > > > > It is their conviction that their inner experiences - mostly
        dreams
        > > > > are the proof of the existence of Eck Masters and the
        omniscience of
        > > > > Harold Klemp. They will say something to the effect, "I believe in
        > > > > Harold Klemp and the Eck teachings because I have had inner
        > > > > experiences that prove they really exist!"
        > > > >
        > > > > Eckankar like so many other religions, cults, or whatever you
        want to
        > > > > call them influence people by training them to become
        accustomed to
        > > > > their doctrine and as a result accept these false beliefs as
        truth.
        > > > >
        > > > > After a person's judgement is
        controlled by that group's
        particular
        > > > > bias, he/she start to see and believe things according to their
        > > > > controlled state of consciousness.
        > > > >
        > > > > In the case of Eckankar, they believe in the illusions of
        mystical Eck
        > > > > Masters and the unlimited power of their Eckankar leader, Harold
        > > > > Klemp. This belief system goes to the very heart of their
        > > > > subconsciousness and as a result they will have dreams of the Eck
        > > > > Masters, Harold Klemp, and Wisdom Temples.
        > > > >
        > > > > People don't realize these are just manifestations of their
        state of
        > > > > consciousness because they have allowed someone else to
        control their
        > > > > ideology.
        > > > >
        > > > > It is a form of hypnotism started by
        Paul Twitchell who
        trained under
        > > > > Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. Ron Hubbard learned
        all about
        > > > > hypnotism from the writings of Emile Coue.
        > > > >
        > > > > Just google Emile Coue and you will find how influential his
        work was
        > > > > in the area of autosuggestion.
        > > > >
        > > > > Here's just one link that shows Coue's influence on the
        formation of
        > > > > Scientology.
        > > > >
        > > > > http://www.lermanet .com/exit/ hubbard-the- hypnotist2. htm
        > > > >
        > > > > Regards
        > > > > Liska
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >


      • drubezarne
        I realize that once a person steps away from Eckankar, they want to rid themselves of all the brainwashing. I still get certain words that pop up when I think
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 8, 2008
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          I realize that once a person steps away from Eckankar, they want to
          rid themselves of all the brainwashing. I still get certain words that
          pop up when I think about God such as Sugmad and Mahanta. I know these
          are conditioned words from the subconscious. And so, when these
          unwanted words pop up, I have to edit my thoughts and substitute
          non-eck terms for them in order to re-condition my subconsciousness.

          When it comes to meditation, some might think that we should throw
          that out too and I don't blame them for doing so, especially when
          they've been duped by charlatans like Harold Klemp, Darwin Gross, and
          Paul Twitchell.

          My belief is that meditation when done correctly without visualizing
          people who claim to be masters can have great benefits and eventually
          lead to great spiritual insights. If I didn't meditate I would never
          have found out about the fictitiousness and deceit of Eckankar.

          I first learned the real truth in meditation and then decided to
          investigate Eckankar through the Internet and by reading the books
          plagiarized by Paul Twitchell. It was a combination of inner work and
          using discrimination or common sense that untangled me from this false
          path. My inner experiences through meditation gave me the confidence
          or faith that I was taking the right steps toward independence from
          all the brainwashing that I had undergone while a member of Eckankar.

          Everybody has to walk their own path and as I mentioned before some
          may not need meditation to have experiences with God or the I AM.
          Unlike some people (Klemp comes to mind), I don't believe I have the
          right to tell others how to contact God. Those who like to tell people
          how to contact God too often have their own selfish schemes for
          personal profit and aggrandizement.

          Regards
          Liska

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ingrid
          <ctecvie@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Liska
          >  
          > I think we are always connected to the Life Source
          > I don't call it God any more, I call it just Life.
          > And it's full of miracles ... I don't meditate (or contemplate or
          whatever) any more (even if I agree that it's good to go still from
          time to time) and  I still get the gifts of life all the time ... this
          is so great ...
          > Ingrid
        • etznab@aol.com
          Ingrid I thought that was beautifully said, Ingrid. Etznab ... From: Ingrid To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 8 Sep
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 8, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Ingrid

            I thought that was beautifully said, Ingrid.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ingrid <ctecvie@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 2:10 am
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Use of Hypnotism in
            Eckankar




            Hi Liska

             
            I think we are always connected to the Life Source
            I don't call it God any more, I call it just Life.
            And it's full of miracles ... I don't meditate (or contemplate or
            whatever) any more (even if I agree that it's good to go still from
            time to time) and  I still get the gifts of life all the time ... this
            is so great ...
            Ingrid


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 10:16:44 PM
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Use of Hypnotism in
            Eckankar




            Mish

            Yes, those pictures of Klemp that are always on display and that
            eckists are told are mandatory at every Eckankar event - no matter how
            minor just confirm Klemp's narcissism and need to be worshipped.
            People don't think of the deeper implications of displaying his
            pictures. They just think they have to do it because they were told to
            do so by the Eckankar guidelines (rules actually). Even if a group of
            eckists meet at someone's home there has to be a picture of Klemp in a
            visible location for all to see.
            Big brother's arm has a long reach.
            He reinforces this by his claim that he knows all that goes on in
            every person's heart.

            The pictures of the make-believe Eck Masters only fortify his position
            as High Muckety-Muck because he likes to remind his followers that he
            is the head of this fictitious clan. Klemp has even gone so far as to
            say due to the ever evolving nature of life, an Eck Master,
            today, is
            greater than any in the past. How's that for humility! Well, I guess
            he might be right because none existed before Paul Twitchell and
            Darwin Gross. When measured against those two how can he lose?

            I do have a question, Mish. You said, "I do agree with your comments
            about meditation when done properly can be one way to connect with
            God." Did you mean there are other ways such as knowing that God is
            with you always? If so, I would have to say yes because, what do I
            know, there could be people who have a natural talent for such without
            having to work at it by meditating.

            Regards
            Liska

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mishmisha9"
            <mishmisha9@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > "In Those Wonderful ECK Masters," Klemp
            repeatedly
            > instructs chelas to visualize the bogus eck masters.
            > That is why it is so important for good eckists to purchase
            > those pics as well as those of HK. When chelas look to
            > visualize such beings and then in fact conjure them up
            > in meditation, then K
            lemp and his chelsas proclaim this
            > as proof of the validity of the eck masters and the eckankar
            > teachings. This is their only proof!!
            >
            > I do agree with your comments about meditation when done
            > properly can be one way to connect with God. Thanks for
            > clarifying that.
            >
            > Mish
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "drubezarne"
            <drubezarne@ >
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I realize that some might
            view meditation/contempl ation as a form of
            > > self-hypnosis. In many of the Eckankar spiritual exercises,
            meditation
            > > becomes self-hypnosis because its followers are asked to
            visualize the
            > > current leader of Eckankar, Harold Klemp. This is the wrong
            use of a
            > > God given gift because it is being subverted for the
            aggrandizement of
            > > a corrupt leader.
            > >
            > > Repeated visualization and wish fulfillment of Harold Klemp
            during
            > > meditation will eventually bring about dreams or visions of
            that
            > > person. Using autosuggestion like this will condition the
            > > consciousness to accept something that is not true.
            > >
            > > Meditation when practiced correctly by placing the attention
            on God
            > > and not some person, can eventually lead to firsthand
            experiences with
            > > God. Neville Goddard said the bible should be read
            symbolically and
            > > never literally. There are a20few quotes he has used from it
            that might
            > > be applicable here. "He that travels alone travels far" and
            "salute no
            > > man as you pass along the highway".
            > >
            > > When a corrupt leader like Klemp misleads his followers to use
            > > meditation for his own selfish purposes he is inviting all
            kinds of
            > > troubles for himself and his worshippers.
            > >
            > > Regards
            > > Liska
            > >
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com,
            "mishmisha9"
            > > <mishmisha9@ > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > This is very true. I noticed how much the eck spiritual
            > > > exercises are really just brain-washing techniques
            that
            > > > Klemp instructs his chelas to use. Fortunately for me,
            when
            > > > I attempted these exercises while a member, I usually
            fell
            > > > asleep or was making up shopping lists or whatever in my
            > > > mind . . .obviously I was receiving some "real"
            protection--
            > > > to not become delusional and believe in the fake
            mahanta!
            > > >
            > > > Incorporated in Klemp's books are those brainwashing
            > > > spiritual exercises! These give spirituality a bad rap!
            : )
            > > >
            > > > Mish
            > > >
            > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com,
            "drubezarne"
            > > <drubezarne@ >
            > > > wrote:

            > > > >
            > > > >
            Prometheus and all, do you know the biggest obstacle to convincing
            > > > > eckists they are chasing an illusion?
            > > > >
            > > > > It is their conviction that their inner experiences
            - mostly
            dreams
            > > > > are the proof of the existence of Eck Masters and
            the
            omniscience of
            > > > > Harold Klemp. They will say something to the
            effect, "I believe in
            > > > > Harold Klemp and the Eck teachings because I have
            had inner
            > > > > experiences that prove they really exist!"
            > > > >
            > > > > Eckankar like so many other religions, cults, or
            whatever you
            want to
            > > > > call them influence people by training them to
            become
            accustomed to
            > > > > their doctrine and as a result accept these false
            beliefs as
            truth.
            > > > >
            > > > > After a person's judgement is
            controlled by that group's
            particular
            > > > > bias, he/she start to see and believe things
            according to their
            > > > > controlled state of consciousness.
            > > > >
            > > > > In the case of Eckankar, they believe in the
            illusions of
            mystical Eck
            > > > > Masters and the unlimited power of their Eckankar
            leader, Harold
            > > > > Klemp. This belief system goes to the very heart of 0D
            their
            > > > > subconsciousness and as a result they will have
            dreams of the Eck
            > > > > Masters, Harold Klemp, and Wisdom Temples.
            > > > >
            > > > > People don't realize these are just manifestations
            of their
            state of
            > > > > consciousness because they have allowed someone
            else to
            control their
            > > > > ideology.
            > > > >
            > > > > It is a form of hypnotism started by
            Paul Twitchell who
            trained under
            > > > > Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. Ron
            Hubbard learned
            all about
            > > > > hypnotism from the writings of Emile Coue.
            > > > >
            > > > > Just google Emile Coue and you will find how
            influential his
            work was
            > > > > in the area of autosuggestion.
            > > > >
            > > > > Here's just one link that shows Coue's influence on
            the
            formation of
            > > > > Scientology.
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.lermanet .com/exit/ hubbard-the-
            hypnotist2. htm
            > > > >
            > > > > Regards
            > > > > Liska
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
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