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Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Etznab and All, It s interesting that Twitchell says that the God-Eaters and the Order of the Vairagi, are a RACE and Twitch states that they are
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 6, 2008
      Hello Etznab and All,
      It's interesting that Twitchell says that
      the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
      Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
      that they are from both Venus and Agam
      Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
      Agam Des is located on Earth!

      Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
      and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
      reside there as a GOD-EATER.

      BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
      Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
      SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
      or Eckankar copyright is he!

      "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:

      "At the European and African ECK Seminars
      we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
      ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
      'What is the HU?"

      Klemp now tells of a reported experience
      of a female ECKist attending.

      "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
      she shut her eyes and chanted with the
      audience, silently asking three times, 'What
      is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
      to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
      again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
      face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."

      The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
      Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
      gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
      Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
      Plane!

      Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
      "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
      How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
      if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
      Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
      subjective experience!

      Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
      where's the portrait of SAT NAM?

      Check out these sites-

      http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam

      Prometheus

      Thanks for the following info Etznab:

      "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
      by a little known RACE which is living in
      AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
      ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
      GOD-EATERS.

      These beings are members of the ANCIENT
      BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
      They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
      from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
      ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
      plants and other foods."

      Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
      Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
      p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
      > are gullible New Age wannabes!
      >
      > How can rational and intelligent people
      > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
      > from orthodox religions that taught
      > similar fiction and myth. And, these
      > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
      > New Age ones have complex dogmas
      > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
      > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
      > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
      >
      > All religions rely upon the current
      > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
      > the imaginations of his believers!
      >
      > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
      > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
      > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
      > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
      >
      > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
      > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
      > through the worlds, through the Planes
      > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
      > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
      > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
      > of matter--some of the newly formed
      > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
      > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
      > world of EARTH.
      >
      > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
      > formed the consciousness of man in
      > the flesh temple of the human body,
      > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
      > and take up the burdens of karma until
      > at last, one day, each would be ready
      > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
      >
      > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
      > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
      > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
      > that man was "placed here by colonists
      > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
      > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
      > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
      > are expected to "serve."
      >
      > Here's an interesting definition from
      > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
      >
      > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
      > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
      > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
      > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
      > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
      > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
      >
      > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
      > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
      > stole the words and ideas of others without
      > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
      > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
      > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
      > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
      > he receives 50% royalties on!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > ************************************************
      > ETZNAB WROTE:
      > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
      > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
      > mistranslated it to begin with.
      >
      > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
      > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
      > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
      > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
      > empire throughout the world. [....]"
      >
      > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
      > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
      > 1986, p. 97 ]
      >
      > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
      > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
      > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
      > of years ago. [....]"
      >
      > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
      > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
      >
      > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
      > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      > >
      > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
      > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
      > >
      > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
      > The world is never without him, for the line
      > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
      > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
      > from JUPITER."
      > >
      > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
      > >
      > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
      > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
      > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
      > >
      > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
      > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
      > JUPITER!"
      > >
      > Where are the other RACES from?
      > >
      > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
      > I don't think so!!!
      > >
      > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
      > from?
      > >
      > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
      > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
      > another Klemp story! Yawn!
      > >
      > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
      > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
      > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
      > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
      > >
      > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
      > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
      > >
      > Prometheus
      > >
      > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
      > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
      > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
      > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
      > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
      > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
      > >
      > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
      > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
      > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
      > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
      > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
      > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
      > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
      > >
      > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
      > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
      > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
      > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
      > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
      >
    • prometheus_973
      GOTTA is mentioned on page 82 of the EK Lexicon and was among the 1st of the Vairagi Order... claims both Twit and Klemp. However, HERACLITUS is Not mentioned
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 8, 2008
        GOTTA is mentioned on page 82
        of the EK Lexicon and was among
        the 1st of the Vairagi Order...
        claims both Twit and Klemp.

        However, HERACLITUS is Not
        mentioned as an ECK Master,
        although, the HERACLIANS are
        mentioned as a future ROOT
        race in Klemp's Lexicon!

        At least now I know where both
        Klemp and Twit found their info
        in order to twist their facts.

        "Heraclians. A future ROOT RACE
        to conquer and control the world;
        fair and just, they will rule around
        the year 6025 A.D., and the
        civilization will last from 500 to 1000
        years." [EK Lexicon, Copyright 1998,
        pg. 87]

        "HERACLIANS. The FIFTH RACE to
        conquer and control the world of the
        future; fair and just, they will rule
        around the year 6025 and the
        civilization will last from 500 to 1000
        years." [PT's Eckankar Dictionary,
        Sixth Printing 1986, pg. 60]

        Interesting that Klemp CHANGED
        Twitchell's info and refers to these
        people as a future "ROOT" race while
        PT says that this is the "FIFTH" race
        to conquer and control the world.
        Isn't the FIFTH RACE, according to
        ECK DOGMA, the ARYAN RACE!
        It seems that Klemp is cleaning up
        PT's crap again, or maybe HK mistakenly
        misinterpreted what Twit was really
        saying???

        BTW- Both Twit and Klemp give this
        same definition:

        "ARRIANS. A cruel race which will
        take over Earth about the year 3500
        A.D., later spreading to Mars and Venus."
        [EK Lexicon, pg.11]


        HK-"The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1985:

        "HERACLITUS, the ancient Greek philosopher,
        had a Mental Concept of the ECK that
        reduced It to the level of the Mind Power.
        BUT Heraclitus saw that Reality in the
        Universe is at the mercy of the LAW
        of CHANGE, since THINGS FLOW IN the
        Universe all the time...

        For us, the conflict of mind and Spirit boils
        down to a practical issue: Who takes care
        of things--God or me?

        Mostly, it is the initiate who must take
        care of himself.

        The Mahanta shows him HOW TO get
        insights from the ECK through intuition,
        Soul Travel, or dreams.

        A PERSON IN THE ECK LINE OF UNFOLDMENT
        IS SOON ABLE TO GET FREE OF THE HOPELESS
        HUMAN CONDITION AND RISE ABOVE IT INTO
        THE PURE STATES OF WISDOM, FREEDOM, AND
        IMMORTALITY." [end of quote]

        So, this ECK Unfoldment to the PURE STATES
        of Wisdom, Freedom and Immortality takes
        place SOON for the chela!

        That's BULLSHIT isn't it!

        The only "plus factor" in Eckankar is that
        there is always another Catch-22 and hoop
        to jump through! Fame and Service are key
        for promotion to a 7th and/or RESA position.

        How to become a Klemp minion: Pull in
        a lot of new members and money like Don
        and Bob and a 7th RESA can make it to
        the 8th. Marry the Klempster, become a
        Trustee, Pres. or V.P. of the ORG, or be on
        the Spiritual Council and one can get an 8th
        too! The thing is... narcissists just don't
        want to share the power! This is why
        Klemp doesn't promote more people
        into the 8th & 9th Circles and why he
        really "slowed down" the initiations. It's
        all just too obvious!

        Prometheus


        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello Etznab and All,
        > It's interesting that Twitchell says that
        > the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
        > Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
        > that they are from both Venus and Agam
        > Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
        > Agam Des is located on Earth!
        >
        > Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
        > and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
        > reside there as a GOD-EATER.
        >
        > BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
        > Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
        > SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
        > or Eckankar copyright is he!
        >
        > "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:
        >
        > "At the European and African ECK Seminars
        > we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
        > ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
        > 'What is the HU?"
        >
        > Klemp now tells of a reported experience
        > of a female ECKist attending.
        >
        > "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
        > she shut her eyes and chanted with the
        > audience, silently asking three times, 'What
        > is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
        > to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
        > again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
        > face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."
        >
        > The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
        > Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
        > gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
        > Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
        > Plane!
        >
        > Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
        > "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
        > How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
        > if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
        > Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
        > subjective experience!
        >
        > Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
        > where's the portrait of SAT NAM?
        >
        > Check out these sites-
        >
        > http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html
        >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > Thanks for the following info Etznab:
        >
        > "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
        > by a little known RACE which is living in
        > AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
        > ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
        > GOD-EATERS.
        >
        > These beings are members of the ANCIENT
        > BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
        > They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
        > from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
        > ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
        > plants and other foods."
        >
        > Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
        > Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
        > p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
        > > are gullible New Age wannabes!
        > >
        > > How can rational and intelligent people
        > > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
        > > from orthodox religions that taught
        > > similar fiction and myth. And, these
        > > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
        > > New Age ones have complex dogmas
        > > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
        > > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
        > > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
        > >
        > > All religions rely upon the current
        > > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
        > > the imaginations of his believers!
        > >
        > > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
        > > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
        > > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
        > > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
        > >
        > > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
        > > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
        > > through the worlds, through the Planes
        > > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
        > > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
        > > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
        > > of matter--some of the newly formed
        > > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
        > > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
        > > world of EARTH.
        > >
        > > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
        > > formed the consciousness of man in
        > > the flesh temple of the human body,
        > > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
        > > and take up the burdens of karma until
        > > at last, one day, each would be ready
        > > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
        > >
        > > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
        > > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
        > > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
        > > that man was "placed here by colonists
        > > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
        > > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
        > > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
        > > are expected to "serve."
        > >
        > > Here's an interesting definition from
        > > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
        > >
        > > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
        > > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
        > > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
        > > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
        > > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
        > > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
        > >
        > > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
        > > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
        > > stole the words and ideas of others without
        > > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
        > > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
        > > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
        > > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
        > > he receives 50% royalties on!
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > > ************************************************
        > > ETZNAB WROTE:
        > > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
        > > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
        > > mistranslated it to begin with.
        > >
        > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
        > > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
        > > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
        > > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
        > > empire throughout the world. [....]"
        > >
        > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
        > > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
        > > 1986, p. 97 ]
        > >
        > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
        > > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
        > > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
        > > of years ago. [....]"
        > >
        > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
        > > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
        > >
        > > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
        > > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
        > >
        > > prometheus wrote:
        > > >
        > > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
        > > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
        > > >
        > > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
        > > The world is never without him, for the line
        > > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
        > > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
        > > from JUPITER."
        > > >
        > > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
        > > >
        > > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
        > > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
        > > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
        > > >
        > > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
        > > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
        > > JUPITER!"
        > > >
        > > Where are the other RACES from?
        > > >
        > > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
        > > I don't think so!!!
        > > >
        > > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
        > > from?
        > > >
        > > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
        > > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
        > > another Klemp story! Yawn!
        > > >
        > > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
        > > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
        > > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
        > > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
        > > >
        > > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
        > > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
        > > >
        > > Prometheus
        > > >
        > > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
        > > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
        > > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
        > > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
        > > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
        > > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
        > > >
        > > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
        > > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
        > > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
        > > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
        > > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
        > > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
        > > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
        > > >
        > > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
        > > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
        > > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
        > > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
        > > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking to seekers?
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 12, 2008
          I thought I'd bring this back for
          another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
          Ever to mention the Jupiter and
          Venus connection with the EK
          Masters when speaking to seekers?
          Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
          ever to mention the lifetime "service"
          requirement to new seekers? No,
          again! I wonder, why Not? Too
          much Truth... they'd get spiritual
          indigestion!!!

          Prometheus


          Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

          Hi Etznab and All,
          Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
          (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
          Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

          Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
          Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
          mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

          "CLARION. A planet where higher
          evolved Souls are living to help carry
          on the work of GOD throughout the
          universe."

          Etznab wrote:

          More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

          "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
          by a little known race which is living in
          Agam Des, and whom we know as the
          Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
          in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
          These beings are members of the Ancient
          Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
          They attained their name, the god-eaters,
          from the fact that they absorb cosmic
          energies instead of assimilating plants
          and other foods." [my brackets]

          Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
          Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
          p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

          ******************************************

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          Klemp is a scammer and his followers
          are gullible New Age wannabes!
          >
          How can rational and intelligent people
          believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
          from orthodox religions that taught
          similar fiction and myth. And, these
          Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
          New Age ones have complex dogmas
          and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
          of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
          Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
          >
          All religions rely upon the current
          LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
          the imaginations of his believers!
          >
          I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
          that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
          HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
          when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
          >
          "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
          Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
          through the worlds, through the Planes
          and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
          of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
          At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
          of matter--some of the newly formed
          planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
          THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
          world of EARTH.
          >
          Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
          formed the consciousness of man in
          the flesh temple of the human body,
          to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
          and take up the burdens of karma until
          at last, one day, each would be ready
          to return to the heavenly home." [end]
          >
          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
          that man was "placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
          are expected to "serve."
          >
          Here's an interesting definition from
          Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
          >
          "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
          which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
          of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
          was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
          FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
          the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
          >
          It's true that Twitchell was a professional
          liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
          stole the words and ideas of others without
          giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
          of spiritual experiences from chelas written
          in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
          use these as "inspiration" for his books that
          he receives 50% royalties on!
          >
          Prometheus
          >
          ************************************************
          ETZNAB WROTE:
          Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
          when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
          mistranslated it to begin with.
          >
          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
          all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
          the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
          years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
          empire throughout the world. [....]"
          >
          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
          1986, p. 97 ]
          >
          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
          its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
          crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
          of years ago. [....]"
          >
          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
          >
          It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
          in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

          prometheus wrote:
          > >
          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
          > >
          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
          The world is never without him, for the line
          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER."
          > >
          ME: WOW! JUPITER!
          > >
          When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
          in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
          the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
          > >
          People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
          to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
          JUPITER!"
          > >
          Where are the other RACES from?
          > >
          Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
          I don't think sooooo!!!
          > >
          What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
          from?
          > >
          Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
          Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
          another Klemp story! Yawn!
          > >
          Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
          Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
          Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
          covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
          > >
          This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
          question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
          > >
          Prometheus
          > >
          P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
          just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
          Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
          too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
          we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
          aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
          > >
          Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
          the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
          of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
          for his contradictions of information? Or, does
          Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
          and is more focused upon those Souls residing
          on the Inner Planes? LOL!
          > >
          I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
          sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
          Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
          it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
          by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 6 7:27 PM
            Hello All,
            I thought I'd bring this back for
            another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
            Ever to mention the Jupiter and
            Venus connection with the EK
            Masters when speaking to seekers?
            Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
            ever to mention the lifetime "service"
            requirement to new seekers? No,
            again! I wonder, why Not? Too
            much Truth... they'd get spiritual
            indigestion!!!

            - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -

            Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
            "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING
            1984 writes:

            "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
            The world is never without him, for the line
            of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
            ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
            from JUPITER."

            Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
            (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
            Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

            Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
            Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
            mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

            "CLARION. A planet where higher
            evolved Souls are living to help carry
            on the work of GOD throughout the
            universe."

            Etznab wrote:

            More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

            "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
            by a little known race which is living in
            Agam Des, and whom we know as the
            Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
            in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
            These beings are members of the Ancient
            Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
            They attained their name, the god-eaters,
            from the fact that they absorb cosmic
            energies instead of assimilating plants
            and other foods." [my brackets]

            Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
            Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
            p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

            ******************************************

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            Klemp is a scammer and his followers
            are gullible New Age wannabes!
            >
            How can rational and intelligent people
            believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
            from orthodox religions that taught
            similar fiction and myth. And, these
            Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
            New Age ones have complex dogmas
            and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
            of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
            Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
            >
            All religions rely upon the current
            LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
            the imaginations of his believers!
            >
            I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
            that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
            HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
            when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

            "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
            Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
            through the worlds, through the Planes
            and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
            of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
            At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
            of matter--some of the newly formed
            planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
            THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
            world of EARTH.

            Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
            formed the consciousness of man in
            the flesh temple of the human body,
            to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
            and take up the burdens of karma until
            at last, one day, each would be ready
            to return to the heavenly home." [end]

            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
            that man was "placed here by colonists
            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
            Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
            are expected to "serve."
            >
            Here's an interesting definition from
            Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
            >
            "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
            which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
            of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
            was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
            FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
            the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
            >
            It's true that Twitchell was a professional
            liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
            stole the words and ideas of others without
            giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
            of spiritual experiences from chelas written
            in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
            use these as "inspiration" for his books that
            he receives 50% royalties on!
            >
            Prometheus
            >
            ************************************************
            ETZNAB WROTE:
            Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
            when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
            mistranslated it to begin with.
            >
            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
            all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
            the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
            years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
            empire throughout the world. [....]"
            >
            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
            Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
            1986, p. 97 ]
            >
            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
            its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
            crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
            of years ago. [....]"
            >
            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
            Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
            >
            It looks like someone got rid of that reference
            to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took
            until 1988!

            prometheus wrote:
            > >
            Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
            "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
            > >
            "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
            The world is never without him, for the line
            of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
            ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
            from JUPITER."
            > >
            ME: WOW! JUPITER!
            > >
            When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
            in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
            the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
            > >
            People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
            to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
            JUPITER!"
            > >
            Where are the other RACES from?
            > >
            Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
            I don't think sooooo!!!
            > >
            What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
            from?
            > >
            Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
            Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
            another Klemp story! Yawn!
            > >
            Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
            Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
            Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
            covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
            > >
            This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
            question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
            > >
            Prometheus
            > >
            P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
            just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
            Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
            too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
            we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
            aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
            > >
            Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
            the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
            of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
            for his contradictions of information? Or, does
            Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
            and is more focused upon those Souls residing
            on the Inner Planes? LOL!
            > >
            I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
            sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
            Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
            it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
            by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
          • etznab@aol.com
            Prometheus, You illustrated: I don t see how Klemp got it that the 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially, that man was
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 8 10:04 AM
              Prometheus,

              You illustrated:

              I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
              5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
              1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
              that man was "placed here by colonists
              from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
              secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
              Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
              are expected to "serve."

              That was a good point, I thought. Because
              legends, myths, fables and folktales are part
              of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not
              in the beginning, they seep in over time when
              people speculate about what they read, and /
              or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo
              (man-made) religion / history are a part of the
              organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However
              when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &
              actually happened I believe people have every
              right to challenge such allegations.

              Here are some examples. The early manu-
              scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The
              Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later
              1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books
              by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.

              These are examples about truth vs. fiction -
              not because I absolutely know all the details -
              but because the subject is "suspicious" and
              /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.

              Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal
              Singh round about the mid 50s when the two
              manuscripts were reportedly written.

              In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his
              0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.

              In one of your past posts (I don't have the #
              or date) you wrote:

              "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on
              his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came
              back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second
              was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."

              I think that information was mentioned in Ford
              Johnson's book, too.

              Consider what Doug Marman gave back around
              the year 2000:

              ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but
              did nothing with the book until he offered it to
              Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues
              With The Master around 1956, from the refer-
              ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.
              Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but
              didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion
              Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's
              writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't
              published until 1970."

              [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]

              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

              I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-
              cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of
              them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal
              Singh.

              Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal
              Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in
              Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson
              wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"
              by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.

              =0
              A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,
              since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-
              scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar
              terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh
              reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.
              And it might possibly have been in the possession
              of Eckankar for a number of years.

              According to Kirpal Singh?

              "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,
              The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-
              ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.
              He changed that book before printing; where he men-
              tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."

              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm

              My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh
              dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.
              MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED
              THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS
              BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY
              THAT NAME!

              Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early
              manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it
              has the manuscript in its possession.

              There has been controversy over when the name of
              Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date
              I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an
              illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is
              the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang
              manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs
              given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was
              it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?
              If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar
              it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who
              came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?

              *************************************************************

              Those were examples because I have mostly seen
              the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't
              have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.

              If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,
              that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs
              does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would
              have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to
              the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.

              I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.
              One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And
              in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.

              Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.
              (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The
              Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in
              Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may
              have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into
              that path in 1963. So ...?

              Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to
              have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's
              Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the
              name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

              I have asked ab
              out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.
              Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-
              Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-
              ists. Even long-time members from the early days.

              Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right
              to have the truth.

              I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.

              Etznab


              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!








              Hello All,

              I thought I'd bring this back for

              another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas

              Ever to mention the Jupiter and

              Venus connection with the EK

              Masters when speaking to seekers?

              Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas

              ever to mention the lifetime "service"

              requirement to new seekers? No,

              again! I wonder, why Not? Too

              much Truth... they'd get spiritual

              indigestion!!!



              - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -



              Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

              "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING

              1984 writes:



              "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,

              The world is never without him, for the line

              of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

              ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

              from JUPITER."



              Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods

              (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D

              Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



              Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from

              Clarion! Klemp even has this planet

              mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



              "CLARION. A planet where higher

              evolved Souls are living to help carry

              on the work of GOD throughout the

              universe."



              Etznab wrote:



              More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



              "Eckankar was brought here from Venus

              by a little known race which is living in

              Agam Des, and whom we know as the

              Eshwar Khanewale [last two words

              in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.

              These beings are members of the Ancient

              Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.

              They attained their name, the god-eaters,

              from the fact that they absorb cosmic

              energies instead of assimilating plants

              and other foods." [my brackets]



              Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,

              Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,

              p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



              ******************************************



              prometheus wrote:

              >

              Klemp is a scammer and his followers

              are gullible New Age wannabes!

              >

              How can rational and intelligent people

              believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

              from orthodox religions that taught

              similar fiction and myth. And, these

              Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

              New Age ones have complex dogmas

              and glowing "spiritual" test
              imonials

              of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

              Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

              >

              All religions rely upon the current

              LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

              the imaginations of his believers!

              >

              I'm still wondering how Klemp can say

              that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

              HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

              when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



              "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

              Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

              through the worlds, through the Planes

              and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

              of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

              At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

              of matter--some of the newly formed

              planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

              THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

              world of EARTH.



              Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

              formed the consciousness of man in

              the flesh temple of the human body,

              to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

              and take up the burdens of karma until

              at last, one day, each would be ready

              to return to the heavenly home." [end]



              I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

              5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

              1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

              that man was "placed here by colonists

              from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

              secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

              Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists

              are expected to "serve."

              >

              Here's an interesting definition from

              Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

              >

              "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

              which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

              of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

              was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the

              FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

              the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

              >

              It's true that Twitchell was a professional

              liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

              stole the words and ideas of others without

              giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

              of spiritual experiences from chelas written

              in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

              use these as "inspiration" for his books that

              he receives 50% royalties on!

              >

              Prometheus

              >

              ************************************************

              ETZNAB WROTE:

              Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

              when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

              mistranslated it to begin with.

              >

              "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

              all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

              the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

              years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

              empire throughout the world. [....]"

              >

              [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

              Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

              1986, p. 97 ]

              >

              0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

              its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

              crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

              of years ago. [....]"

              >

              [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

              Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

              >

              It looks like someone got rid of that reference

              to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took

              until 1988!



              prometheus wrote:

              > >

              Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

              "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

              > >

              "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

              The world is never without him, for the line

              of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

              ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

              from JUPITER."

              > >

              ME: WOW! JUPITER!

              > >

              When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

              in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

              the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

              > >

              People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

              to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

              JUPITER!"

              > >

              Where are the other RACES from?

              > >

              Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

              I don't think sooooo!!!

              > >

              What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

              from?

              > >

              Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

              Far Away? That sounds like t
              he makings for

              another Klemp story! Yawn!

              > >

              Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

              Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

              Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

              covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

              > >

              This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

              question to the inner" works in Eckankar!

              > >

              Prometheus

              > >

              P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

              just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

              Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

              too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

              we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

              aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

              > >

              Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

              the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

              of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

              for his contradictions of information? Or, does

              Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

              and is more focused upon those Souls residing

              on the Inner Planes? LOL!

              > >

              I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

              sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

              Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

              it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

              by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
            • etznab@aol.com
              About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or something he heard / read? For some reason I thought
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 8 2:48 PM
                About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell
                got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or
                something he heard / read?

                For some reason I thought about Scientology. I then
                searched for keywords Scientology & from Jupiter.

                ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing" can
                raise your abilities to the point where you "know" something
                directly rather than having to discover it or learn it. He spoke
                authoritatively about life in the solar system. He claimed that
                Jupiter was inhabited by people who looked like Eskimos.
                You can hear him say it at:

                http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                Coincidence?

                I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                writers for a time.

                Etznab





                -----Original Message-----
                From: etznab@...
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:04 pm
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From
                JUPITER!








                Prometheus,



                You illustrated:



                I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                that man was "placed here by colonists

                from JUPITER." This is20another dirty little

                secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                are expected to "serve."



                That was a good point, I thought. Because

                legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                people speculate about what they read, and /

                or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                actually happened I believe people have every

                right to challenge such allegations.



                Here are some examples. The early manu-

                scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                not because I absolutely know all the details -

                but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                manuscripts were reportedly written.



                In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                In one of your past posts (I don't have the #=0
                D

                or date) you wrote:



                "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                Johnson's book, too.



                Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                the year 2000:



                ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                published until 1970."



                [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                Singh.



                Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                by Rebazar T
                arzs to Paul Twitchell.



                =0

                A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                And it might possibly have been in the possession

                of Eckankar for a number of years.



                According to Kirpal Singh?



                "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                THAT NAME!



                Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it

                has the manuscript in its possession.



                There has been controversy over when the name of

                Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                illustrated Rebazar Tarzs h
                istory prior to that, where is

                the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                *************************************************************



                Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                that path in 1963. So ...?




                Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                I have asked ab

                out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                to have the truth.



                I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                Etznab



                -----Original Message-----

                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm

                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!



                Hello All,



                I thought I'd bring this back for



                another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas



                Ever to mention the Jupiter and



                Venus connection with the EK



                Masters when speaking to seekers?



                Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas



                ever to mention the lifetime "service"



                requirement to new seekers? No,



                again! I wonder, why Not? Too



                much Truth... they'd get spiritual



                indigestion!!!



                - Aryans Are Fr
                om JUPITER! -



                Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING



                1984 writes:



                "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,



                The world is never without him, for the line



                of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                from JUPITER."



                Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods



                (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D



                Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from



                Clarion! Klemp even has this planet



                mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                "CLARION. A planet where higher



                evolved Souls are living to help carry



                on the work of GOD throughout the



                universe."



                Etznab wrote:



                More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                "Eckankar was brought here from Venus



                by a little known race which is living in



                Agam Des, and whom we know as the



                Eshwar Khanewale [last two words



                in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.



                These beings are members of the Ancient



                Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.



                They attained their name, the god-eaters,



                from the fact that they absorb cosmic



                energies instead of assimilating plants



                and other20foods." [my brackets]



                Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,



                Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,



                p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                ******************************************



                prometheus wrote:



                >



                Klemp is a scammer and his followers



                are gullible New Age wannabes!



                >



                How can rational and intelligent people



                believe in this crap! Most ECKists came



                from orthodox religions that taught



                similar fiction and myth. And, these



                Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the



                New Age ones have complex dogmas



                and glowing "spiritual" test

                imonials



                of miracles, visitations by angels and/or



                Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



                >



                All religions rely upon the current



                LEADER's ability to control and manipulate



                the imaginations of his believers!



                >



                I'm still wondering how Klemp can say



                that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED



                HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"



                when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL



                Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD



                through the worlds, through the Planes



                and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds



                =0
                Aof the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.



                At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds



                of matter--some of the newly formed



                planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and



                THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little



                world of EARTH.



                Many CAME to the EARTH planet and



                formed the consciousness of man in



                the flesh temple of the human body,



                to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,



                and take up the burdens of karma until



                at last, one day, each would be ready



                to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                that man was "placed here by colonists



                from JUPITER." This is another dirty little



                secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists



                are expected to "serve."



                >



                Here's an interesting definition from



                Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



                >



                "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE



                which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN



                of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM



                was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the



                FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of



                the RACES OF
                MAN upon EARTH."



                >



                It's true that Twitchell was a professional



                liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit



                stole the words and ideas of others without



                giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories



                of spiritual experiences from chelas written



                in Initiate Reports and letters in order to



                use these as "inspiration" for his books that



                he receives 50% royalties on!



                >



                Prometheus



                >



                ************************************************



                ETZNAB WROTE:



                Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up



                when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone



                mistranslated it to begin with.



                >



                "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and



                all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under



                the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of



                years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the



                empire throughout the world. [....]"



                >



                [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,



                1986, p. 97 ]



                >



                0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all



                its colonial empire came about by gas po
                ckets under the



                crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands



                of years ago. [....]"



                >



                [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]



                >



                It looks like someone got rid of that reference



                to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took



                until 1988!



                prometheus wrote:



                > >



                Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



                > >



                "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.



                The world is never without him, for the line



                of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                from JUPITER."



                > >



                ME: WOW! JUPITER!



                > >



                When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"



                in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is



                the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



                > >



                People in this Current ROOT RACE, according



                to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from



                JUPITER!"



                > >



                Where are the other RACES from?



                > >



                Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?



                I don't think sooooo!!!
                =0
                A


                > >



                What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES



                from?



                > >



                Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far



                Far Away? That sounds like t

                he makings for



                another Klemp story! Yawn!



                > >



                Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that



                Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi



                Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was



                covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



                > >



                This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your



                question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



                > >



                Prometheus



                > >



                P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or



                just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the



                Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter



                too, or were they from somewhere else? Did



                we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we



                aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



                > >



                Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All



                the Universes (Klemp) have access to more



                of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)



                for his contradictions of information? Or, does



                Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)


                0A
                and is more focused upon those Souls residing



                on the Inner Planes? LOL!



                > >



                I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound



                sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield



                Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could



                it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced



                by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab, At one time Twitchell was a high ranking member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron was his original source of compiled info on Jupiter. Thus, this
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 10 10:06 AM
                  Hello Etznab,
                  At one time Twitchell was a high ranking
                  member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                  was his original source of "compiled" info
                  on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's
                  handed-down source since he tends to use
                  other people (usually dead) as inspiration
                  for his "EK wisdom."

                  As far as Marman goes... he speculates...
                  a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!

                  Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who
                  inspired him to take his piles of "research"
                  and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963
                  when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame
                  GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's
                  had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's
                  kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must
                  be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role
                  by thinking she'd helped people who were
                  desperate to believe in something more than
                  what they had with their former orthodox
                  religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and
                  other cult-like religions can say and do the
                  same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent
                  than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's
                  new buds. Gail should do the right thing and
                  jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could
                  even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and
                  post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or
                  Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to
                  clear her conscience and protect those Souls
                  whom she helped to delude.

                  BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say
                  that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang
                  manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.
                  Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/
                  written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,
                  a book of poetry?

                  Prometheus

                  Etznab wrote:
                  About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul
                  Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual
                  experience? or something he heard / read?

                  For some reason I thought about Scientology.
                  I then searched for keywords Scientology &
                  from Jupiter.

                  ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                  L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                  of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"
                  can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"
                  something directly rather than having to discover it
                  or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the
                  solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited
                  by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him
                  say it at:

                  http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                  http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                  Coincidence?

                  I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                  certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                  believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                  writers for a time.

                  Etznab



                  Prometheus,
                  You illustrated:

                  I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                  5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                  1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                  that man was "placed here by colonists

                  from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                  secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                  Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                  are expected to "serve."


                  That was a good point, I thought. Because

                  legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                  of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                  in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                  people speculate about what they read, and /

                  or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                  (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                  organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                  when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                  actually happened I believe people have every

                  right to challenge such allegations.


                  Here are some examples. The early manu-

                  scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                  Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                  1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                  by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                  These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                  not because I absolutely know all the details -

                  but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                  /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                  Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                  Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                  manuscripts were reportedly written.



                  In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                  "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                  In one of your past posts (I don't have the #

                  or date) you wrote:



                  "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                  his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                  back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                  was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                  I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                  Johnson's book, too.



                  Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                  the year 2000:



                  ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                  did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                  Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                  With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                  ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                  Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                  didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                  Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                  writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                  published until 1970."



                  [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                  http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                  I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                  cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                  them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                  Singh.



                  Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                  Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                  Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                  wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                  by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.


                  Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                  since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                  scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                  terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                  reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                  And it might possibly have been in the possession

                  of Eckankar for a number of years.



                  According to Kirpal Singh?



                  "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                  The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                  ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                  He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                  tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                  http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                  My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                  dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                  MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                  THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                  BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                  THAT NAME!



                  Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                  manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,

                  if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                  There has been controversy over when the name of

                  Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                  I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                  illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is

                  the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                  manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                  given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                  it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                  If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                  it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                  came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                  *************************************************************



                  Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                  the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                  have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                  If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                  that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                  does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                  have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                  the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                  I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                  One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                  in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                  Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                  (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                  Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                  Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                  have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                  that path in 1963. So ...?



                  Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                  have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                  Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                  name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                  I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                  Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                  Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                  ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                  Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                  to have the truth.



                  I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                  Etznab
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Prometheus, I ve often wondered about Gail & Patti - ever since I started researching & posting as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was it 2005-2007? I think
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 10 5:51 PM
                    Prometheus,

                    I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                    ever since I started researching & posting
                    as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                    it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                    around there.

                    It's a big question mark, to me, about
                    whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                    with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                    for so many years? However, I don't think
                    Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                    mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                    she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                    believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                    she was not any longer active. Instead of
                    going into the details about this, my recoll-
                    ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                    the story in her own time, in her own way.

                    About how many books Paul Twitchell
                    finished before 1966, I think I see your
                    point.

                    Etznab


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                    JUPITER!








                    Hello Etznab,

                    At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                    member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                    was his original source of "compiled" info

                    on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                    handed-down source since he tends to use

                    other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                    for his "EK wisdom."



                    As far as Marman goes...
                    he speculates...

                    a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                    Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                    inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                    and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                    when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                    GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                    had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                    kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                    be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                    by thinking she'd helped people who were

                    desperate to believe in something more than

                    what they had with their former orthodox

                    religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                    other cult-like religions can say and do the

                    same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                    than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                    new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                    jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                    even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                    post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                    Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                    clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                    whom she helped to delude.



                    BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                    that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                    manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                    Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                    written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                    a book of poetry?
                    0D


                    Prometheus



                    Etznab wrote:

                    About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                    Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                    experience? or something he heard / read?



                    For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                    I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                    from Jupiter.



                    ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                    L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                    of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                    can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                    something directly rather than having to discover it

                    or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                    solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                    by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                    say it at:



                    http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                    http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                    Coincidence?



                    I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                    certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                    believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                    writers for a time.



                    Etznab



                    Prometheus,

                    You illustrated:



                    I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                    5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                    1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                    that man was "placed here by colonists



                    from JUPITER." This is another dirty little




                    secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                    Another dirty little secret is that ECKists



                    are expected to "serve."



                    That was a good point, I thought. Because



                    legends, myths, fables and folktales are part



                    of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not



                    in the beginning, they seep in over time when



                    people speculate about what they read, and /



                    or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo



                    (man-made) religion / history are a part of the



                    organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However



                    when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &



                    actually happened I believe people have every



                    right to challenge such allegations.



                    Here are some examples. The early manu-



                    scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The



                    Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later



                    1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books



                    by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                    These are examples about truth vs. fiction -



                    not because I absolutely know all the details -



                    but because the subject is "suspicious" and



                    /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                    Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal



                    Singh round about the mid 50s when the two



                    manuscripts were reportedly written.

                    0A

                    In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his



                    "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                    In one of your past posts (I don't have the #



                    or date) you wrote:



                    "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on



                    his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came



                    back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second



                    was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                    I think that information was mentioned in Ford



                    Johnson's book, too.



                    Consider what Doug Marman gave back around



                    the year 2000:



                    ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but



                    did nothing with the book until he offered it to



                    Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues



                    With The Master around 1956, from the refer-



                    ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.



                    Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but



                    didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion



                    Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's



                    writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't



                    published until 1970."



                    [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                    I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-



                    cause Paul includes him in the two book
                    s. One of



                    them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal



                    Singh.



                    Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal



                    Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in



                    Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson



                    wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"



                    by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.



                    Although I don't absolutely know all the details,



                    since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-



                    scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar



                    terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh



                    reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.



                    And it might possibly have been in the possession



                    of Eckankar for a number of years.



                    According to Kirpal Singh?



                    "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,



                    The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-



                    ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.



                    He changed that book before printing; where he men-



                    tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                    My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh



                    dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.



                    MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED



                    THE TIGER'S FAN
                    G MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS



                    BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY



                    THAT NAME!



                    Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early



                    manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,



                    if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                    There has been controversy over when the name of



                    Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date



                    I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an



                    illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is



                    the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang



                    manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs



                    given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was



                    it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?



                    If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar



                    it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who



                    came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                    *************************************************************



                    Those were examples because I have mostly seen



                    the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't



                    have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                    If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,



                    that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs



                    does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I wo
                    uld



                    have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to



                    the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                    I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.



                    One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And



                    in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                    Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.



                    (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The



                    Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in



                    Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may



                    have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into



                    that path in 1963. So ...?



                    Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to



                    have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's



                    Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the



                    name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                    I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.



                    Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-



                    Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-



                    ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                    Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right



                    to have the truth.



                    I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                    Etznab








                    0D
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Etznab, I figured Patti had left EKankar since she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar Board the day after Klemp & his new Board went after Darwin. Joan
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 12 9:56 PM
                      Hi Etznab,
                      I figured Patti had left EKankar since
                      she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar
                      Board the day after Klemp & his new Board
                      went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take
                      Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,
                      the same day as the resignation. Apparently
                      Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand
                      in the wings, and await, until opportunity
                      comes a knocking.

                      Prometheus


                      Prometheus,

                      I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                      ever since I started researching & posting
                      as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                      it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                      around there.

                      It's a big question mark, to me, about
                      whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                      with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                      for so many years? However, I don't think
                      Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                      mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                      she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                      believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                      she was not any longer active. Instead of
                      going into the details about this, my recoll-
                      ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                      the story in her own time, in her own way.

                      About how many books Paul Twitchell
                      finished before 1966, I think I see your
                      point.

                      Etznab


                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Etznab,

                      At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                      member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                      was his original source of "compiled" info

                      on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                      handed-down source since he tends to use

                      other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                      for his "EK wisdom."


                      As far as Marman goes... he speculates...

                      a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                      Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                      inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                      and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                      when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                      GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                      had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                      kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                      be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                      by thinking she'd helped people who were

                      desperate to believe in something more than

                      what they had with their former orthodox

                      religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                      other cult-like religions can say and do the

                      same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                      than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                      new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                      jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                      even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                      post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                      Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                      clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                      whom she helped to delude.



                      BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                      that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                      manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                      Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                      written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                      a book of poetry?



                      Prometheus



                      Etznab wrote:

                      About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                      Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                      experience? or something he heard / read?



                      For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                      I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                      from Jupiter.



                      ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                      L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                      of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                      can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                      something directly rather than having to discover it

                      or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                      solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                      by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                      say it at:



                      http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                      http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                      Coincidence?



                      I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                      certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                      believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                      writers for a time.



                      Etznab
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Prometheus, I wasn t aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I had the impression she was removed. Here is why: Another interesting development in the August 7
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 13 3:41 PM
                        Prometheus,

                        I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                        had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                        "Another interesting development in the August
                        7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                        of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                        Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                        of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                        resolution, summarily removed from this position
                        and told that

                        ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                        both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                        ediately. [....]

                        "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                        ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                        immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                        current term of Secretary."

                        [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                        A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234] 

                        Etznab

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                        JUPITER!








                        Hi Etznab,

                        I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                        she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                        Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                        went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                        Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                        the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                        Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                        in the win
                        gs, and await, until opportunity

                        comes a knocking.



                        Prometheus



                        Prometheus,



                        I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                        ever since I started researching & posting

                        as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                        it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                        around there.



                        It's a big question mark, to me, about

                        whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                        with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                        for so many years? However, I don't think

                        Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                        mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                        she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                        believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                        she was not any longer active. Instead of

                        going into the details about this, my recoll-

                        ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                        the story in her own time, in her own way.



                        About how many books Paul Twitchell

                        finished before 1966, I think I see your

                        point.



                        Etznab



                        prometheus wrote:



                        Hello Etznab,



                        At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                        member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                        was his original source of "compiled" info



                        on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                        handed-down source since he tends to use



                        other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                        for his "EK wisdom."

                        0D

                        As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                        a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                        Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                        inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                        and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                        when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                        GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                        had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                        kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                        be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                        by thinking she'd helped people who were



                        desperate to believe in something more than



                        what they had with their former orthodox



                        religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                        other cult-like religions can say and do the



                        same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                        than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                        new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                        jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                        even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                        post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                        Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                        clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                        whom she helped to delude.



                        BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                        =0
                        A
                        that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                        manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                        Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                        written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                        a book of poetry?



                        Prometheus



                        Etznab wrote:



                        About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul



                        Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual



                        experience? or something he heard / read?



                        For some reason I thought about Scientology.



                        I then searched for keywords Scientology &



                        from Jupiter.



                        ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                        L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science



                        of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"



                        can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"



                        something directly rather than having to discover it



                        or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the



                        solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited



                        by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him



                        say it at:



                        http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                        http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                        Coincidence?



                        I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and



                        certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I



                        believe Twitchell and Hubbard were
                        both science fiction



                        writers for a time.



                        Etznab
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi Etznab, If I could access the Truth-Seeker site I would show the minutes from the meeting where officers and trustees were appointed along with a long
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 13 11:17 PM
                          Hi Etznab,
                          If I could access the Truth-Seeker
                          site I would show the minutes from
                          the meeting where officers and trustees
                          were appointed along with a long discussion
                          of what to do about Darwin. Patti was
                          appointed as Secretary during this very
                          long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.
                          A recess was taken and the meeting was
                          to resume the very next day.

                          However, Patti resigned the next day after
                          having the night to think or dream about
                          what was being done to Darwin by Klemp
                          and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan
                          documented the details differently, after
                          Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"
                          when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-
                          up began early on. A "resolution" was simply
                          done to officially accept Patti's resignation.
                          Another motion and "vote" was made into
                          a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty
                          position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman
                          to ask Patti how it went down, according to
                          her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

                          Prometheus
                          p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather
                          than take his word for what she has to say.


                          etznab wrote:

                          Prometheus,

                          I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                          had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                          "Another interesting development in the August
                          7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                          of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                          Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                          of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                          resolution, summarily removed from this position
                          and told that

                          ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                          both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                          ediately. [....]

                          "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                          ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                          immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                          current term of Secretary."

                          [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                          A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â

                          Etznab

                          Prometheus wrote:


                          Hi Etznab,

                          I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                          she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                          Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                          went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                          Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                          the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                          Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                          in the wings, and await, until opportunity

                          comes a knocking.



                          Prometheus



                          Prometheus,



                          I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                          ever since I started researching & posting

                          as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                          it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                          around there.



                          It's a big question mark, to me, about

                          whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                          with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                          for so many years? However, I don't think

                          Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                          mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                          she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                          believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                          she was not any longer active. Instead of

                          going into the details about this, my recoll-

                          ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                          the story in her own time, in her own way.



                          About how many books Paul Twitchell

                          finished before 1966, I think I see your

                          point.



                          Etznab



                          prometheus wrote:



                          Hello Etznab,



                          At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                          member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                          was his original source of "compiled" info



                          on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                          handed-down source since he tends to use



                          other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                          for his "EK wisdom."



                          As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                          a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                          Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                          inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                          and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                          when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                          GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                          had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                          kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                          be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                          by thinking she'd helped people who were



                          desperate to believe in something more than



                          what they had with their former orthodox



                          religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                          other cult-like religions can say and do the



                          same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                          than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                          new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                          jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                          even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                          post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                          Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                          clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                          whom she helped to delude.



                          BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                          =0
                          A
                          that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                          manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                          Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                          written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                          a book of poetry?



                          Prometheus
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          Prometheus, Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this what I had read. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 16 6:08 PM
                            Prometheus,

                            Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this
                            what I had read.

                            Etznab

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                            Removed!








                            Hi Etznab,

                            If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                            site I would show the minutes from

                            the meeting where officers and trustees

                            were appointed along with a long discussion

                            of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                            appointed as Secretary during this very

                            long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                            A recess was taken and the meeting was

                            to resume the very next day.



                            However, Patti resigned the next day after

                            having the night to think or dream about

                            what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                            and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                            documented the details differently, after

                            Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                            when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                            up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                            done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                            Another motion and "vote" was made into

                            a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                            position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                            to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                            her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                            =0
                            APrometheus

                            p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                            than take his word for what she has to say.



                            etznab wrote:



                            Prometheus,



                            I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                            had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                            "Another interesting development in the August

                            7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                            of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                            Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                            of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                            resolution, summarily removed from this position

                            and told that



                            ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                            both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                            ediately. [....]



                            "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                            ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                            immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                            current term of Secretary."



                            [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                            A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                            Etznab



                            Prometheus wrote:



                            Hi Etznab,



                            I figured Patti had left EKankar since



                            she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                            Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                            went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                            Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                            the same day as th
                            e resignation. Apparently



                            Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                            in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                            comes a knocking.



                            Prometheus



                            Prometheus,



                            I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                            ever since I started researching & posting



                            as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                            it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                            around there.



                            It's a big question mark, to me, about



                            whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                            with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                            for so many years? However, I don't think



                            Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                            mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                            she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                            believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                            she was not any longer active. Instead of



                            going into the details about this, my recoll-



                            ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                            the story in her own time, in her own way.



                            About how many books Paul Twitchell



                            finished before 1966, I think I see your



                            point.



                            Etznab



                            prometheus wrote:



                            Hello Etznab,



                            At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                            member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                            0A


                            was his original source of "compiled" info



                            on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                            handed-down source since he tends to use



                            other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                            for his "EK wisdom."



                            As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                            a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                            Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                            inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                            and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                            when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                            GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                            had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                            kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                            be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                            by thinking she'd helped people who were



                            desperate to believe in something more than



                            what they had with their former orthodox



                            religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                            other cult-like religions can say and do the



                            same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                            than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                            new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                            jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                            even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                            post so
                            me tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                            Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                            clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                            whom she helped to delude.



                            BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                            =0

                            A

                            that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                            manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                            Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                            written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                            a book of poetry?



                            Prometheus
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Something else for this thread. From The Truth-Seeker site. It doesn t have to do with the August 7th, 1983 meeting. Not unless that was the time when Patti
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 27 6:34 PM
                              Something else for this thread. From The
                              Truth-Seeker site.

                              It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                              1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                              time when Patti became not active. My
                              guess was it refers to some time later.

                              [....]

                              A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                              an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                              Freeman

                              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                              I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                              Doug's response:

                              "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                              fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                              not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                              rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                              http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                              I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                              a response, but I assume it was February
                              2004. The 16th?

                              Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                              Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                              until days later, but I think the link where he
                              did respond is currently not working.

                              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                              Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                              guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                              the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                              Forum link.

                              There are a number of links (more than a few)
                              on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                              the present time.

                              At any rate, according to D
                              oug (apparently)
                              Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                              at least.

                              I don't know when Patti became not active,
                              or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                              terminated or resigned from her position of
                              Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                              it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                              that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                              future wife.

                              Etznab





                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                              Removed!








                              Hi Etznab,

                              If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                              site I would show the minutes from

                              the meeting where officers and trustees

                              were appointed along with a long discussion

                              of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                              appointed as Secretary during this very

                              long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                              A recess was taken and the meeting was

                              to resume the very next day.



                              However, Patti resigned the next day after

                              having the night to think or dream about

                              what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                              and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                              documented the details differently, after

                              Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                              when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                              up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                              done to officiall
                              y accept Patti's resignation.

                              Another motion and "vote" was made into

                              a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                              position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                              to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                              her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                              Prometheus

                              p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                              than take his word for what she has to say.



                              etznab wrote:



                              Prometheus,



                              I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                              had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                              "Another interesting development in the August

                              7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                              of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                              Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                              of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                              resolution, summarily removed from this position

                              and told that



                              ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                              both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                              ediately. [....]



                              "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                              ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                              immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                              current term of Secretary."



                              [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                              A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                              Etznab



                              Prometheus wrote:



                              Hi Etznab,



                              I
                              figured Patti had left EKankar since



                              she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                              Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                              went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                              Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                              the same day as the resignation. Apparently



                              Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                              in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                              comes a knocking.



                              Prometheus



                              Prometheus,



                              I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                              ever since I started researching & posting



                              as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                              it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                              around there.



                              It's a big question mark, to me, about



                              whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                              with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                              for so many years? However, I don't think



                              Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                              mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                              she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                              believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                              she was not any longer active. Instead of



                              going into the details about this, my recoll-



                              ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                              the story in her own time, in her own way.



                              About how=2
                              0many books Paul Twitchell



                              finished before 1966, I think I see your



                              point.



                              Etznab



                              prometheus wrote:



                              Hello Etznab,



                              At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                              member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                              was his original source of "compiled" info



                              on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                              handed-down source since he tends to use



                              other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                              for his "EK wisdom."



                              As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                              a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                              Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                              inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                              and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                              when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                              GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                              had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                              kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                              be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                              by thinking she'd helped people who were



                              desperate to believe in something more than



                              what they had with their former orthodox



                              religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                              other cult-like religions can say and do the



                              same. Therefore, Gai
                              l is more the KAL agent



                              than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                              new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                              jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                              even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                              post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                              Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                              clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                              whom she helped to delude.



                              BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                              =0

                              A

                              that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                              manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                              Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                              written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                              a book of poetry?



                              Prometheus
                            • prometheus_973
                              Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of figured that Patti wasn t active in ECKankar since she was talking so highly about Ram Dass recently. And, since she
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 2, 2009
                                Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of
                                figured that Patti wasn't active in ECKankar
                                since she was talking so highly about Ram
                                Dass recently. And, since she hasn't kept
                                her EK Membership current, this means
                                that her consciousness is now around
                                that of a current 2nd Initiate! Wow! From
                                8th to 2nd just because of a few bucks
                                ($$$)! Actually, would a real spiritual
                                "path" charge money to maintain one's
                                (Soul's) inner plane level of consciousness?
                                Well, yes! Because all of this (religions, etc.)
                                is of the physical and Not the spiritual.
                                That's why they sell books and other
                                materials and require "requested" donations!
                                The only "free lunch" (freedom) comes
                                when Soul eliminates the middleman!

                                Prometheus


                                Etznab wrote:
                                Something else for this thread. From The
                                Truth-Seeker site.

                                It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                time when Patti became not active. My
                                guess was it refers to some time later.

                                [....]

                                A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                Freeman

                                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                Doug's response:

                                "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                a response, but I assume it was February
                                2004. The 16th?

                                Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                until days later, but I think the link where he
                                did respond is currently not working.

                                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                Forum link.

                                There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                the present time.

                                At any rate, according to Doug (apparently)
                                Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                at least.

                                I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                terminated or resigned from her position of
                                Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                future wife.

                                Etznab



                                Hi Etznab,

                                If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                site I would show the minutes from

                                the meeting where officers and trustees

                                were appointed along with a long discussion

                                of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                appointed as Secretary during this very

                                long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                to resume the very next day.



                                However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                having the night to think or dream about

                                what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                documented the details differently, after

                                Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                                Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                Prometheus

                                p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                than take his word for what she has to say.
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