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Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Etznab and All, Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit! Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS! Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
      Hi Etznab and All,
      Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
      (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
      Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

      Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
      Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
      mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

      "CLARION. A planet where higher
      evolved Souls are living to help carry
      on the work of GOD throughout the
      universe."

      Etznab wrote:

      More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

      "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
      by a little known race which is living in
      Agam Des, and whom we know as the
      Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
      in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
      These beings are members of the Ancient
      Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
      They attained their name, the god-eaters,
      from the fact that they absorb cosmic
      energies instead of assimilating plants
      and other foods." [my brackets]

      Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
      Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
      p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

      ******************************************

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      Klemp is a scammer and his followers
      are gullible New Age wannabes!
      >
      How can rational and intelligent people
      believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
      from orthodox religions that taught
      similar fiction and myth. And, these
      Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
      New Age ones have complex dogmas
      and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
      of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
      Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
      >
      All religions rely upon the current
      LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
      the imaginations of his believers!
      >
      I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
      that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
      HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
      when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
      >
      "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
      Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
      through the worlds, through the Planes
      and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
      of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
      At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
      of matter--some of the newly formed
      planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
      THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
      world of EARTH.
      >
      Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
      formed the consciousness of man in
      the flesh temple of the human body,
      to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
      and take up the burdens of karma until
      at last, one day, each would be ready
      to return to the heavenly home." [end]
      >
      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
      that man was "placed here by colonists
      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
      Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
      are expected to "serve."
      >
      Here's an interesting definition from
      Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
      >
      "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
      which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
      of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
      was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
      FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
      the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
      >
      It's true that Twitchell was a professional
      liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
      stole the words and ideas of others without
      giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
      of spiritual experiences from chelas written
      in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
      use these as "inspiration" for his books that
      he receives 50% royalties on!
      >
      Prometheus
      >
      ************************************************
      ETZNAB WROTE:
      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
      when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
      mistranslated it to begin with.
      >
      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
      all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
      the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
      years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
      empire throughout the world. [....]"
      >
      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
      Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
      1986, p. 97 ]
      >
      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
      its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
      crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
      of years ago. [....]"
      >
      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
      Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
      >
      It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
      in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

      prometheus wrote:
      > >
      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
      > >
      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
      The world is never without him, for the line
      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
      from JUPITER."
      > >
      ME: WOW! JUPITER!
      > >
      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
      > >
      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
      JUPITER!"
      > >
      Where are the other RACES from?
      > >
      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
      I don't think sooooo!!!
      > >
      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
      from?
      > >
      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
      Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
      another Klemp story! Yawn!
      > >
      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
      > >
      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
      > >
      Prometheus
      > >
      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
      > >
      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
      of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
      for his contradictions of information? Or, does
      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
      and is more focused upon those Souls residing
      on the Inner Planes? LOL!
      > >
      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab and All, It s interesting that Twitchell says that the God-Eaters and the Order of the Vairagi, are a RACE and Twitch states that they are
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 6, 2008
        Hello Etznab and All,
        It's interesting that Twitchell says that
        the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
        Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
        that they are from both Venus and Agam
        Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
        Agam Des is located on Earth!

        Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
        and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
        reside there as a GOD-EATER.

        BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
        Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
        SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
        or Eckankar copyright is he!

        "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:

        "At the European and African ECK Seminars
        we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
        ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
        'What is the HU?"

        Klemp now tells of a reported experience
        of a female ECKist attending.

        "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
        she shut her eyes and chanted with the
        audience, silently asking three times, 'What
        is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
        to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
        again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
        face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."

        The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
        Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
        gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
        Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
        Plane!

        Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
        "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
        How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
        if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
        Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
        subjective experience!

        Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
        where's the portrait of SAT NAM?

        Check out these sites-

        http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam

        Prometheus

        Thanks for the following info Etznab:

        "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
        by a little known RACE which is living in
        AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
        ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
        GOD-EATERS.

        These beings are members of the ANCIENT
        BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
        They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
        from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
        ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
        plants and other foods."

        Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
        Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
        p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
        > are gullible New Age wannabes!
        >
        > How can rational and intelligent people
        > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
        > from orthodox religions that taught
        > similar fiction and myth. And, these
        > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
        > New Age ones have complex dogmas
        > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
        > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
        > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
        >
        > All religions rely upon the current
        > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
        > the imaginations of his believers!
        >
        > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
        > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
        > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
        > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
        >
        > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
        > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
        > through the worlds, through the Planes
        > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
        > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
        > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
        > of matter--some of the newly formed
        > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
        > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
        > world of EARTH.
        >
        > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
        > formed the consciousness of man in
        > the flesh temple of the human body,
        > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
        > and take up the burdens of karma until
        > at last, one day, each would be ready
        > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
        >
        > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
        > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
        > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
        > that man was "placed here by colonists
        > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
        > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
        > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
        > are expected to "serve."
        >
        > Here's an interesting definition from
        > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
        >
        > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
        > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
        > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
        > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
        > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
        > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
        >
        > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
        > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
        > stole the words and ideas of others without
        > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
        > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
        > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
        > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
        > he receives 50% royalties on!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > ************************************************
        > ETZNAB WROTE:
        > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
        > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
        > mistranslated it to begin with.
        >
        > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
        > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
        > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
        > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
        > empire throughout the world. [....]"
        >
        > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
        > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
        > 1986, p. 97 ]
        >
        > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
        > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
        > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
        > of years ago. [....]"
        >
        > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
        > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
        >
        > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
        > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
        > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
        > >
        > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
        > The world is never without him, for the line
        > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
        > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
        > from JUPITER."
        > >
        > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
        > >
        > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
        > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
        > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
        > >
        > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
        > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
        > JUPITER!"
        > >
        > Where are the other RACES from?
        > >
        > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
        > I don't think so!!!
        > >
        > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
        > from?
        > >
        > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
        > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
        > another Klemp story! Yawn!
        > >
        > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
        > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
        > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
        > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
        > >
        > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
        > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
        > >
        > Prometheus
        > >
        > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
        > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
        > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
        > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
        > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
        > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
        > >
        > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
        > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
        > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
        > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
        > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
        > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
        > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
        > >
        > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
        > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
        > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
        > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
        > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
        >
      • prometheus_973
        GOTTA is mentioned on page 82 of the EK Lexicon and was among the 1st of the Vairagi Order... claims both Twit and Klemp. However, HERACLITUS is Not mentioned
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 8, 2008
          GOTTA is mentioned on page 82
          of the EK Lexicon and was among
          the 1st of the Vairagi Order...
          claims both Twit and Klemp.

          However, HERACLITUS is Not
          mentioned as an ECK Master,
          although, the HERACLIANS are
          mentioned as a future ROOT
          race in Klemp's Lexicon!

          At least now I know where both
          Klemp and Twit found their info
          in order to twist their facts.

          "Heraclians. A future ROOT RACE
          to conquer and control the world;
          fair and just, they will rule around
          the year 6025 A.D., and the
          civilization will last from 500 to 1000
          years." [EK Lexicon, Copyright 1998,
          pg. 87]

          "HERACLIANS. The FIFTH RACE to
          conquer and control the world of the
          future; fair and just, they will rule
          around the year 6025 and the
          civilization will last from 500 to 1000
          years." [PT's Eckankar Dictionary,
          Sixth Printing 1986, pg. 60]

          Interesting that Klemp CHANGED
          Twitchell's info and refers to these
          people as a future "ROOT" race while
          PT says that this is the "FIFTH" race
          to conquer and control the world.
          Isn't the FIFTH RACE, according to
          ECK DOGMA, the ARYAN RACE!
          It seems that Klemp is cleaning up
          PT's crap again, or maybe HK mistakenly
          misinterpreted what Twit was really
          saying???

          BTW- Both Twit and Klemp give this
          same definition:

          "ARRIANS. A cruel race which will
          take over Earth about the year 3500
          A.D., later spreading to Mars and Venus."
          [EK Lexicon, pg.11]


          HK-"The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1985:

          "HERACLITUS, the ancient Greek philosopher,
          had a Mental Concept of the ECK that
          reduced It to the level of the Mind Power.
          BUT Heraclitus saw that Reality in the
          Universe is at the mercy of the LAW
          of CHANGE, since THINGS FLOW IN the
          Universe all the time...

          For us, the conflict of mind and Spirit boils
          down to a practical issue: Who takes care
          of things--God or me?

          Mostly, it is the initiate who must take
          care of himself.

          The Mahanta shows him HOW TO get
          insights from the ECK through intuition,
          Soul Travel, or dreams.

          A PERSON IN THE ECK LINE OF UNFOLDMENT
          IS SOON ABLE TO GET FREE OF THE HOPELESS
          HUMAN CONDITION AND RISE ABOVE IT INTO
          THE PURE STATES OF WISDOM, FREEDOM, AND
          IMMORTALITY." [end of quote]

          So, this ECK Unfoldment to the PURE STATES
          of Wisdom, Freedom and Immortality takes
          place SOON for the chela!

          That's BULLSHIT isn't it!

          The only "plus factor" in Eckankar is that
          there is always another Catch-22 and hoop
          to jump through! Fame and Service are key
          for promotion to a 7th and/or RESA position.

          How to become a Klemp minion: Pull in
          a lot of new members and money like Don
          and Bob and a 7th RESA can make it to
          the 8th. Marry the Klempster, become a
          Trustee, Pres. or V.P. of the ORG, or be on
          the Spiritual Council and one can get an 8th
          too! The thing is... narcissists just don't
          want to share the power! This is why
          Klemp doesn't promote more people
          into the 8th & 9th Circles and why he
          really "slowed down" the initiations. It's
          all just too obvious!

          Prometheus


          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello Etznab and All,
          > It's interesting that Twitchell says that
          > the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
          > Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
          > that they are from both Venus and Agam
          > Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
          > Agam Des is located on Earth!
          >
          > Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
          > and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
          > reside there as a GOD-EATER.
          >
          > BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
          > Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
          > SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
          > or Eckankar copyright is he!
          >
          > "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:
          >
          > "At the European and African ECK Seminars
          > we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
          > ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
          > 'What is the HU?"
          >
          > Klemp now tells of a reported experience
          > of a female ECKist attending.
          >
          > "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
          > she shut her eyes and chanted with the
          > audience, silently asking three times, 'What
          > is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
          > to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
          > again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
          > face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."
          >
          > The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
          > Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
          > gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
          > Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
          > Plane!
          >
          > Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
          > "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
          > How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
          > if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
          > Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
          > subjective experience!
          >
          > Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
          > where's the portrait of SAT NAM?
          >
          > Check out these sites-
          >
          > http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html
          >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > Thanks for the following info Etznab:
          >
          > "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
          > by a little known RACE which is living in
          > AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
          > ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
          > GOD-EATERS.
          >
          > These beings are members of the ANCIENT
          > BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
          > They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
          > from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
          > ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
          > plants and other foods."
          >
          > Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
          > Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
          > p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
          > > are gullible New Age wannabes!
          > >
          > > How can rational and intelligent people
          > > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
          > > from orthodox religions that taught
          > > similar fiction and myth. And, these
          > > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
          > > New Age ones have complex dogmas
          > > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
          > > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
          > > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
          > >
          > > All religions rely upon the current
          > > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
          > > the imaginations of his believers!
          > >
          > > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
          > > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
          > > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
          > > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
          > >
          > > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
          > > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
          > > through the worlds, through the Planes
          > > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
          > > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
          > > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
          > > of matter--some of the newly formed
          > > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
          > > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
          > > world of EARTH.
          > >
          > > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
          > > formed the consciousness of man in
          > > the flesh temple of the human body,
          > > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
          > > and take up the burdens of karma until
          > > at last, one day, each would be ready
          > > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
          > >
          > > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
          > > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
          > > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
          > > that man was "placed here by colonists
          > > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
          > > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
          > > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
          > > are expected to "serve."
          > >
          > > Here's an interesting definition from
          > > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
          > >
          > > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
          > > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
          > > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
          > > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
          > > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
          > > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
          > >
          > > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
          > > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
          > > stole the words and ideas of others without
          > > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
          > > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
          > > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
          > > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
          > > he receives 50% royalties on!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > > ************************************************
          > > ETZNAB WROTE:
          > > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
          > > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
          > > mistranslated it to begin with.
          > >
          > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
          > > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
          > > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
          > > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
          > > empire throughout the world. [....]"
          > >
          > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
          > > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
          > > 1986, p. 97 ]
          > >
          > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
          > > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
          > > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
          > > of years ago. [....]"
          > >
          > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
          > > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
          > >
          > > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
          > > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
          > >
          > > prometheus wrote:
          > > >
          > > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
          > > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
          > > >
          > > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
          > > The world is never without him, for the line
          > > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
          > > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
          > > from JUPITER."
          > > >
          > > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
          > > >
          > > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
          > > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
          > > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
          > > >
          > > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
          > > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
          > > JUPITER!"
          > > >
          > > Where are the other RACES from?
          > > >
          > > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
          > > I don't think so!!!
          > > >
          > > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
          > > from?
          > > >
          > > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
          > > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
          > > another Klemp story! Yawn!
          > > >
          > > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
          > > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
          > > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
          > > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
          > > >
          > > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
          > > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
          > > >
          > > Prometheus
          > > >
          > > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
          > > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
          > > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
          > > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
          > > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
          > > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
          > > >
          > > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
          > > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
          > > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
          > > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
          > > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
          > > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
          > > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
          > > >
          > > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
          > > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
          > > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
          > > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
          > > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking to seekers?
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 12, 2008
            I thought I'd bring this back for
            another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
            Ever to mention the Jupiter and
            Venus connection with the EK
            Masters when speaking to seekers?
            Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
            ever to mention the lifetime "service"
            requirement to new seekers? No,
            again! I wonder, why Not? Too
            much Truth... they'd get spiritual
            indigestion!!!

            Prometheus


            Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

            Hi Etznab and All,
            Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
            (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
            Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

            Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
            Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
            mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

            "CLARION. A planet where higher
            evolved Souls are living to help carry
            on the work of GOD throughout the
            universe."

            Etznab wrote:

            More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

            "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
            by a little known race which is living in
            Agam Des, and whom we know as the
            Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
            in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
            These beings are members of the Ancient
            Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
            They attained their name, the god-eaters,
            from the fact that they absorb cosmic
            energies instead of assimilating plants
            and other foods." [my brackets]

            Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
            Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
            p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

            ******************************************

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            Klemp is a scammer and his followers
            are gullible New Age wannabes!
            >
            How can rational and intelligent people
            believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
            from orthodox religions that taught
            similar fiction and myth. And, these
            Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
            New Age ones have complex dogmas
            and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
            of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
            Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
            >
            All religions rely upon the current
            LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
            the imaginations of his believers!
            >
            I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
            that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
            HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
            when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
            >
            "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
            Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
            through the worlds, through the Planes
            and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
            of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
            At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
            of matter--some of the newly formed
            planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
            THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
            world of EARTH.
            >
            Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
            formed the consciousness of man in
            the flesh temple of the human body,
            to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
            and take up the burdens of karma until
            at last, one day, each would be ready
            to return to the heavenly home." [end]
            >
            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
            that man was "placed here by colonists
            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
            Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
            are expected to "serve."
            >
            Here's an interesting definition from
            Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
            >
            "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
            which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
            of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
            was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
            FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
            the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
            >
            It's true that Twitchell was a professional
            liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
            stole the words and ideas of others without
            giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
            of spiritual experiences from chelas written
            in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
            use these as "inspiration" for his books that
            he receives 50% royalties on!
            >
            Prometheus
            >
            ************************************************
            ETZNAB WROTE:
            Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
            when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
            mistranslated it to begin with.
            >
            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
            all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
            the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
            years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
            empire throughout the world. [....]"
            >
            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
            Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
            1986, p. 97 ]
            >
            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
            its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
            crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
            of years ago. [....]"
            >
            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
            Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
            >
            It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
            in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

            prometheus wrote:
            > >
            Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
            "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
            > >
            "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
            The world is never without him, for the line
            of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
            ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
            from JUPITER."
            > >
            ME: WOW! JUPITER!
            > >
            When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
            in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
            the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
            > >
            People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
            to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
            JUPITER!"
            > >
            Where are the other RACES from?
            > >
            Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
            I don't think sooooo!!!
            > >
            What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
            from?
            > >
            Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
            Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
            another Klemp story! Yawn!
            > >
            Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
            Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
            Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
            covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
            > >
            This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
            question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
            > >
            Prometheus
            > >
            P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
            just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
            Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
            too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
            we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
            aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
            > >
            Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
            the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
            of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
            for his contradictions of information? Or, does
            Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
            and is more focused upon those Souls residing
            on the Inner Planes? LOL!
            > >
            I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
            sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
            Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
            it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
            by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 6, 2009
              Hello All,
              I thought I'd bring this back for
              another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
              Ever to mention the Jupiter and
              Venus connection with the EK
              Masters when speaking to seekers?
              Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
              ever to mention the lifetime "service"
              requirement to new seekers? No,
              again! I wonder, why Not? Too
              much Truth... they'd get spiritual
              indigestion!!!

              - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -

              Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
              "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING
              1984 writes:

              "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
              The world is never without him, for the line
              of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
              ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
              from JUPITER."

              Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
              (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
              Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

              Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
              Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
              mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

              "CLARION. A planet where higher
              evolved Souls are living to help carry
              on the work of GOD throughout the
              universe."

              Etznab wrote:

              More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

              "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
              by a little known race which is living in
              Agam Des, and whom we know as the
              Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
              in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
              These beings are members of the Ancient
              Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
              They attained their name, the god-eaters,
              from the fact that they absorb cosmic
              energies instead of assimilating plants
              and other foods." [my brackets]

              Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
              Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
              p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

              ******************************************

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              Klemp is a scammer and his followers
              are gullible New Age wannabes!
              >
              How can rational and intelligent people
              believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
              from orthodox religions that taught
              similar fiction and myth. And, these
              Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
              New Age ones have complex dogmas
              and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
              of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
              Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
              >
              All religions rely upon the current
              LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
              the imaginations of his believers!
              >
              I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
              that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
              HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
              when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

              "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
              Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
              through the worlds, through the Planes
              and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
              of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
              At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
              of matter--some of the newly formed
              planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
              THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
              world of EARTH.

              Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
              formed the consciousness of man in
              the flesh temple of the human body,
              to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
              and take up the burdens of karma until
              at last, one day, each would be ready
              to return to the heavenly home." [end]

              I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
              5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
              1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
              that man was "placed here by colonists
              from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
              secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
              Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
              are expected to "serve."
              >
              Here's an interesting definition from
              Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
              >
              "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
              which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
              of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
              was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
              FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
              the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
              >
              It's true that Twitchell was a professional
              liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
              stole the words and ideas of others without
              giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
              of spiritual experiences from chelas written
              in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
              use these as "inspiration" for his books that
              he receives 50% royalties on!
              >
              Prometheus
              >
              ************************************************
              ETZNAB WROTE:
              Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
              when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
              mistranslated it to begin with.
              >
              "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
              all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
              the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
              years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
              empire throughout the world. [....]"
              >
              [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
              Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
              1986, p. 97 ]
              >
              "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
              its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
              crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
              of years ago. [....]"
              >
              [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
              Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
              >
              It looks like someone got rid of that reference
              to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took
              until 1988!

              prometheus wrote:
              > >
              Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
              "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
              > >
              "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
              The world is never without him, for the line
              of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
              ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
              from JUPITER."
              > >
              ME: WOW! JUPITER!
              > >
              When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
              in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
              the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
              > >
              People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
              to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
              JUPITER!"
              > >
              Where are the other RACES from?
              > >
              Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
              I don't think sooooo!!!
              > >
              What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
              from?
              > >
              Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
              Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
              another Klemp story! Yawn!
              > >
              Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
              Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
              Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
              covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
              > >
              This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
              question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
              > >
              Prometheus
              > >
              P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
              just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
              Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
              too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
              we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
              aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
              > >
              Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
              the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
              of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
              for his contradictions of information? Or, does
              Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
              and is more focused upon those Souls residing
              on the Inner Planes? LOL!
              > >
              I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
              sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
              Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
              it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
              by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
            • etznab@aol.com
              Prometheus, You illustrated: I don t see how Klemp got it that the 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially, that man was
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                Prometheus,

                You illustrated:

                I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                that man was "placed here by colonists
                from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                are expected to "serve."

                That was a good point, I thought. Because
                legends, myths, fables and folktales are part
                of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not
                in the beginning, they seep in over time when
                people speculate about what they read, and /
                or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo
                (man-made) religion / history are a part of the
                organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However
                when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &
                actually happened I believe people have every
                right to challenge such allegations.

                Here are some examples. The early manu-
                scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The
                Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later
                1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books
                by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.

                These are examples about truth vs. fiction -
                not because I absolutely know all the details -
                but because the subject is "suspicious" and
                /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.

                Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal
                Singh round about the mid 50s when the two
                manuscripts were reportedly written.

                In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his
                0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.

                In one of your past posts (I don't have the #
                or date) you wrote:

                "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on
                his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came
                back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second
                was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."

                I think that information was mentioned in Ford
                Johnson's book, too.

                Consider what Doug Marman gave back around
                the year 2000:

                ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but
                did nothing with the book until he offered it to
                Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues
                With The Master around 1956, from the refer-
                ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.
                Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but
                didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion
                Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's
                writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't
                published until 1970."

                [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]

                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

                I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-
                cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of
                them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal
                Singh.

                Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal
                Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in
                Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson
                wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"
                by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.

                =0
                A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,
                since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-
                scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar
                terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh
                reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.
                And it might possibly have been in the possession
                of Eckankar for a number of years.

                According to Kirpal Singh?

                "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,
                The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-
                ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.
                He changed that book before printing; where he men-
                tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."

                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm

                My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh
                dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.
                MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED
                THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS
                BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY
                THAT NAME!

                Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early
                manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it
                has the manuscript in its possession.

                There has been controversy over when the name of
                Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date
                I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an
                illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is
                the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang
                manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs
                given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was
                it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?
                If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar
                it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who
                came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?

                *************************************************************

                Those were examples because I have mostly seen
                the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't
                have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.

                If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,
                that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs
                does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would
                have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to
                the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.

                I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.
                One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And
                in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.

                Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.
                (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The
                Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in
                Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may
                have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into
                that path in 1963. So ...?

                Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to
                have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's
                Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the
                name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

                I have asked ab
                out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.
                Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-
                Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-
                ists. Even long-time members from the early days.

                Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right
                to have the truth.

                I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.

                Etznab


                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!








                Hello All,

                I thought I'd bring this back for

                another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas

                Ever to mention the Jupiter and

                Venus connection with the EK

                Masters when speaking to seekers?

                Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas

                ever to mention the lifetime "service"

                requirement to new seekers? No,

                again! I wonder, why Not? Too

                much Truth... they'd get spiritual

                indigestion!!!



                - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -



                Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

                "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING

                1984 writes:



                "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,

                The world is never without him, for the line

                of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

                ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

                from JUPITER."



                Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods

                (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D

                Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from

                Clarion! Klemp even has this planet

                mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                "CLARION. A planet where higher

                evolved Souls are living to help carry

                on the work of GOD throughout the

                universe."



                Etznab wrote:



                More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                "Eckankar was brought here from Venus

                by a little known race which is living in

                Agam Des, and whom we know as the

                Eshwar Khanewale [last two words

                in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.

                These beings are members of the Ancient

                Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.

                They attained their name, the god-eaters,

                from the fact that they absorb cosmic

                energies instead of assimilating plants

                and other foods." [my brackets]



                Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,

                Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,

                p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                ******************************************



                prometheus wrote:

                >

                Klemp is a scammer and his followers

                are gullible New Age wannabes!

                >

                How can rational and intelligent people

                believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

                from orthodox religions that taught

                similar fiction and myth. And, these

                Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

                New Age ones have complex dogmas

                and glowing "spiritual" test
                imonials

                of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

                Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

                >

                All religions rely upon the current

                LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

                the imaginations of his believers!

                >

                I'm still wondering how Klemp can say

                that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

                HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

                when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

                Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

                through the worlds, through the Planes

                and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

                of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

                At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

                of matter--some of the newly formed

                planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

                THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

                world of EARTH.



                Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

                formed the consciousness of man in

                the flesh temple of the human body,

                to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

                and take up the burdens of karma until

                at last, one day, each would be ready

                to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                that man was "placed here by colonists

                from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists

                are expected to "serve."

                >

                Here's an interesting definition from

                Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

                >

                "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

                which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

                of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

                was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the

                FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

                the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

                >

                It's true that Twitchell was a professional

                liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

                stole the words and ideas of others without

                giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

                of spiritual experiences from chelas written

                in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

                use these as "inspiration" for his books that

                he receives 50% royalties on!

                >

                Prometheus

                >

                ************************************************

                ETZNAB WROTE:

                Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

                when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

                mistranslated it to begin with.

                >

                "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

                all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

                the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

                years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

                empire throughout the world. [....]"

                >

                [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

                Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

                1986, p. 97 ]

                >

                0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

                its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

                crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

                of years ago. [....]"

                >

                [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

                Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

                >

                It looks like someone got rid of that reference

                to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took

                until 1988!



                prometheus wrote:

                > >

                Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

                "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

                > >

                "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

                The world is never without him, for the line

                of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

                ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

                from JUPITER."

                > >

                ME: WOW! JUPITER!

                > >

                When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

                in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

                the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

                > >

                People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

                to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

                JUPITER!"

                > >

                Where are the other RACES from?

                > >

                Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

                I don't think sooooo!!!

                > >

                What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

                from?

                > >

                Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

                Far Away? That sounds like t
                he makings for

                another Klemp story! Yawn!

                > >

                Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

                Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

                Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

                covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

                > >

                This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

                question to the inner" works in Eckankar!

                > >

                Prometheus

                > >

                P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

                just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

                Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

                too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

                we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

                aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

                > >

                Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

                the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

                of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

                for his contradictions of information? Or, does

                Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

                and is more focused upon those Souls residing

                on the Inner Planes? LOL!

                > >

                I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

                sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

                Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

                it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

                by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
              • etznab@aol.com
                About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or something he heard / read? For some reason I thought
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                  About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell
                  got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or
                  something he heard / read?

                  For some reason I thought about Scientology. I then
                  searched for keywords Scientology & from Jupiter.

                  ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                  L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                  of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing" can
                  raise your abilities to the point where you "know" something
                  directly rather than having to discover it or learn it. He spoke
                  authoritatively about life in the solar system. He claimed that
                  Jupiter was inhabited by people who looked like Eskimos.
                  You can hear him say it at:

                  http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                  http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                  Coincidence?

                  I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                  certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                  believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                  writers for a time.

                  Etznab





                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: etznab@...
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:04 pm
                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From
                  JUPITER!








                  Prometheus,



                  You illustrated:



                  I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                  5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                  1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                  that man was "placed here by colonists

                  from JUPITER." This is20another dirty little

                  secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                  Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                  are expected to "serve."



                  That was a good point, I thought. Because

                  legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                  of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                  in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                  people speculate about what they read, and /

                  or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                  (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                  organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                  when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                  actually happened I believe people have every

                  right to challenge such allegations.



                  Here are some examples. The early manu-

                  scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                  Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                  1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                  by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                  These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                  not because I absolutely know all the details -

                  but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                  /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                  Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                  Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                  manuscripts were reportedly written.



                  In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                  0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                  In one of your past posts (I don't have the #=0
                  D

                  or date) you wrote:



                  "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                  his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                  back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                  was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                  I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                  Johnson's book, too.



                  Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                  the year 2000:



                  ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                  did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                  Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                  With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                  ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                  Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                  didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                  Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                  writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                  published until 1970."



                  [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                  http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                  I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                  cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                  them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                  Singh.



                  Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                  Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                  Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                  wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                  by Rebazar T
                  arzs to Paul Twitchell.



                  =0

                  A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                  since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                  scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                  terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                  reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                  And it might possibly have been in the possession

                  of Eckankar for a number of years.



                  According to Kirpal Singh?



                  "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                  The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                  ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                  He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                  tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                  http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                  My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                  dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                  MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                  THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                  BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                  THAT NAME!



                  Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                  manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it

                  has the manuscript in its possession.



                  There has been controversy over when the name of

                  Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                  I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                  illustrated Rebazar Tarzs h
                  istory prior to that, where is

                  the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                  manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                  given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                  it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                  If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                  it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                  came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                  *************************************************************



                  Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                  the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                  have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                  If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                  that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                  does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                  have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                  the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                  I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                  One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                  in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                  Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                  (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                  Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                  Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                  have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                  that path in 1963. So ...?




                  Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                  have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                  Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                  name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                  I have asked ab

                  out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                  Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                  Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                  ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                  Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                  to have the truth.



                  I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                  Etznab



                  -----Original Message-----

                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                  Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm

                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!



                  Hello All,



                  I thought I'd bring this back for



                  another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas



                  Ever to mention the Jupiter and



                  Venus connection with the EK



                  Masters when speaking to seekers?



                  Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas



                  ever to mention the lifetime "service"



                  requirement to new seekers? No,



                  again! I wonder, why Not? Too



                  much Truth... they'd get spiritual



                  indigestion!!!



                  - Aryans Are Fr
                  om JUPITER! -



                  Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                  "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING



                  1984 writes:



                  "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,



                  The world is never without him, for the line



                  of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                  ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                  from JUPITER."



                  Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods



                  (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D



                  Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                  Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from



                  Clarion! Klemp even has this planet



                  mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                  "CLARION. A planet where higher



                  evolved Souls are living to help carry



                  on the work of GOD throughout the



                  universe."



                  Etznab wrote:



                  More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                  "Eckankar was brought here from Venus



                  by a little known race which is living in



                  Agam Des, and whom we know as the



                  Eshwar Khanewale [last two words



                  in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.



                  These beings are members of the Ancient



                  Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.



                  They attained their name, the god-eaters,



                  from the fact that they absorb cosmic



                  energies instead of assimilating plants



                  and other20foods." [my brackets]



                  Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,



                  Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,



                  p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                  ******************************************



                  prometheus wrote:



                  >



                  Klemp is a scammer and his followers



                  are gullible New Age wannabes!



                  >



                  How can rational and intelligent people



                  believe in this crap! Most ECKists came



                  from orthodox religions that taught



                  similar fiction and myth. And, these



                  Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the



                  New Age ones have complex dogmas



                  and glowing "spiritual" test

                  imonials



                  of miracles, visitations by angels and/or



                  Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



                  >



                  All religions rely upon the current



                  LEADER's ability to control and manipulate



                  the imaginations of his believers!



                  >



                  I'm still wondering how Klemp can say



                  that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED



                  HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"



                  when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                  "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL



                  Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD



                  through the worlds, through the Planes



                  and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds



                  =0
                  Aof the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.



                  At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds



                  of matter--some of the newly formed



                  planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and



                  THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little



                  world of EARTH.



                  Many CAME to the EARTH planet and



                  formed the consciousness of man in



                  the flesh temple of the human body,



                  to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,



                  and take up the burdens of karma until



                  at last, one day, each would be ready



                  to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                  I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                  5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                  1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                  that man was "placed here by colonists



                  from JUPITER." This is another dirty little



                  secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                  Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists



                  are expected to "serve."



                  >



                  Here's an interesting definition from



                  Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



                  >



                  "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE



                  which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN



                  of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM



                  was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the



                  FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of



                  the RACES OF
                  MAN upon EARTH."



                  >



                  It's true that Twitchell was a professional



                  liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit



                  stole the words and ideas of others without



                  giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories



                  of spiritual experiences from chelas written



                  in Initiate Reports and letters in order to



                  use these as "inspiration" for his books that



                  he receives 50% royalties on!



                  >



                  Prometheus



                  >



                  ************************************************



                  ETZNAB WROTE:



                  Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up



                  when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone



                  mistranslated it to begin with.



                  >



                  "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and



                  all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under



                  the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of



                  years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the



                  empire throughout the world. [....]"



                  >



                  [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                  Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,



                  1986, p. 97 ]



                  >



                  0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all



                  its colonial empire came about by gas po
                  ckets under the



                  crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands



                  of years ago. [....]"



                  >



                  [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                  Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]



                  >



                  It looks like someone got rid of that reference



                  to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took



                  until 1988!



                  prometheus wrote:



                  > >



                  Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                  "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



                  > >



                  "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.



                  The world is never without him, for the line



                  of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                  ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                  from JUPITER."



                  > >



                  ME: WOW! JUPITER!



                  > >



                  When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"



                  in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is



                  the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



                  > >



                  People in this Current ROOT RACE, according



                  to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from



                  JUPITER!"



                  > >



                  Where are the other RACES from?



                  > >



                  Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?



                  I don't think sooooo!!!
                  =0
                  A


                  > >



                  What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES



                  from?



                  > >



                  Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far



                  Far Away? That sounds like t

                  he makings for



                  another Klemp story! Yawn!



                  > >



                  Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that



                  Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi



                  Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was



                  covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



                  > >



                  This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your



                  question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



                  > >



                  Prometheus



                  > >



                  P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or



                  just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the



                  Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter



                  too, or were they from somewhere else? Did



                  we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we



                  aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



                  > >



                  Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All



                  the Universes (Klemp) have access to more



                  of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)



                  for his contradictions of information? Or, does



                  Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)


                  0A
                  and is more focused upon those Souls residing



                  on the Inner Planes? LOL!



                  > >



                  I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound



                  sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield



                  Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could



                  it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced



                  by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Etznab, At one time Twitchell was a high ranking member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron was his original source of compiled info on Jupiter. Thus, this
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                    Hello Etznab,
                    At one time Twitchell was a high ranking
                    member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                    was his original source of "compiled" info
                    on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's
                    handed-down source since he tends to use
                    other people (usually dead) as inspiration
                    for his "EK wisdom."

                    As far as Marman goes... he speculates...
                    a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!

                    Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who
                    inspired him to take his piles of "research"
                    and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963
                    when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame
                    GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's
                    had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's
                    kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must
                    be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role
                    by thinking she'd helped people who were
                    desperate to believe in something more than
                    what they had with their former orthodox
                    religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and
                    other cult-like religions can say and do the
                    same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent
                    than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's
                    new buds. Gail should do the right thing and
                    jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could
                    even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and
                    post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or
                    Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to
                    clear her conscience and protect those Souls
                    whom she helped to delude.

                    BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say
                    that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang
                    manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.
                    Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/
                    written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,
                    a book of poetry?

                    Prometheus

                    Etznab wrote:
                    About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul
                    Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual
                    experience? or something he heard / read?

                    For some reason I thought about Scientology.
                    I then searched for keywords Scientology &
                    from Jupiter.

                    ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                    L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                    of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"
                    can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"
                    something directly rather than having to discover it
                    or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the
                    solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited
                    by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him
                    say it at:

                    http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                    http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                    Coincidence?

                    I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                    certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                    believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                    writers for a time.

                    Etznab



                    Prometheus,
                    You illustrated:

                    I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                    5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                    1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                    that man was "placed here by colonists

                    from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                    secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                    Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                    are expected to "serve."


                    That was a good point, I thought. Because

                    legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                    of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                    in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                    people speculate about what they read, and /

                    or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                    (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                    organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                    when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                    actually happened I believe people have every

                    right to challenge such allegations.


                    Here are some examples. The early manu-

                    scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                    Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                    1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                    by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                    These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                    not because I absolutely know all the details -

                    but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                    /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                    Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                    Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                    manuscripts were reportedly written.



                    In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                    "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                    In one of your past posts (I don't have the #

                    or date) you wrote:



                    "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                    his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                    back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                    was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                    I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                    Johnson's book, too.



                    Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                    the year 2000:



                    ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                    did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                    Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                    With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                    ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                    Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                    didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                    Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                    writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                    published until 1970."



                    [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                    I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                    cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                    them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                    Singh.



                    Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                    Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                    Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                    wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                    by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.


                    Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                    since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                    scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                    terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                    reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                    And it might possibly have been in the possession

                    of Eckankar for a number of years.



                    According to Kirpal Singh?



                    "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                    The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                    ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                    He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                    tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                    My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                    dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                    MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                    THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                    BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                    THAT NAME!



                    Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                    manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,

                    if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                    There has been controversy over when the name of

                    Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                    I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                    illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is

                    the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                    manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                    given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                    it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                    If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                    it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                    came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                    *************************************************************



                    Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                    the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                    have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                    If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                    that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                    does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                    have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                    the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                    I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                    One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                    in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                    Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                    (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                    Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                    Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                    have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                    that path in 1963. So ...?



                    Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                    have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                    Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                    name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                    I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                    Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                    Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                    ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                    Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                    to have the truth.



                    I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                    Etznab
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Prometheus, I ve often wondered about Gail & Patti - ever since I started researching & posting as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was it 2005-2007? I think
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                      Prometheus,

                      I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                      ever since I started researching & posting
                      as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                      it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                      around there.

                      It's a big question mark, to me, about
                      whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                      with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                      for so many years? However, I don't think
                      Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                      mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                      she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                      believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                      she was not any longer active. Instead of
                      going into the details about this, my recoll-
                      ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                      the story in her own time, in her own way.

                      About how many books Paul Twitchell
                      finished before 1966, I think I see your
                      point.

                      Etznab


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                      JUPITER!








                      Hello Etznab,

                      At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                      member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                      was his original source of "compiled" info

                      on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                      handed-down source since he tends to use

                      other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                      for his "EK wisdom."



                      As far as Marman goes...
                      he speculates...

                      a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                      Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                      inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                      and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                      when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                      GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                      had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                      kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                      be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                      by thinking she'd helped people who were

                      desperate to believe in something more than

                      what they had with their former orthodox

                      religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                      other cult-like religions can say and do the

                      same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                      than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                      new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                      jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                      even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                      post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                      Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                      clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                      whom she helped to delude.



                      BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                      that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                      manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                      Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                      written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                      a book of poetry?
                      0D


                      Prometheus



                      Etznab wrote:

                      About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                      Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                      experience? or something he heard / read?



                      For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                      I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                      from Jupiter.



                      ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                      L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                      of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                      can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                      something directly rather than having to discover it

                      or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                      solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                      by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                      say it at:



                      http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                      http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                      Coincidence?



                      I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                      certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                      believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                      writers for a time.



                      Etznab



                      Prometheus,

                      You illustrated:



                      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                      that man was "placed here by colonists



                      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little




                      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                      Another dirty little secret is that ECKists



                      are expected to "serve."



                      That was a good point, I thought. Because



                      legends, myths, fables and folktales are part



                      of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not



                      in the beginning, they seep in over time when



                      people speculate about what they read, and /



                      or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo



                      (man-made) religion / history are a part of the



                      organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However



                      when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &



                      actually happened I believe people have every



                      right to challenge such allegations.



                      Here are some examples. The early manu-



                      scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The



                      Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later



                      1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books



                      by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                      These are examples about truth vs. fiction -



                      not because I absolutely know all the details -



                      but because the subject is "suspicious" and



                      /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                      Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal



                      Singh round about the mid 50s when the two



                      manuscripts were reportedly written.

                      0A

                      In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his



                      "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                      In one of your past posts (I don't have the #



                      or date) you wrote:



                      "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on



                      his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came



                      back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second



                      was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                      I think that information was mentioned in Ford



                      Johnson's book, too.



                      Consider what Doug Marman gave back around



                      the year 2000:



                      ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but



                      did nothing with the book until he offered it to



                      Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues



                      With The Master around 1956, from the refer-



                      ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.



                      Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but



                      didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion



                      Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's



                      writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't



                      published until 1970."



                      [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                      I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-



                      cause Paul includes him in the two book
                      s. One of



                      them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal



                      Singh.



                      Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal



                      Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in



                      Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson



                      wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"



                      by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.



                      Although I don't absolutely know all the details,



                      since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-



                      scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar



                      terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh



                      reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.



                      And it might possibly have been in the possession



                      of Eckankar for a number of years.



                      According to Kirpal Singh?



                      "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,



                      The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-



                      ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.



                      He changed that book before printing; where he men-



                      tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                      My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh



                      dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.



                      MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED



                      THE TIGER'S FAN
                      G MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS



                      BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY



                      THAT NAME!



                      Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early



                      manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,



                      if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                      There has been controversy over when the name of



                      Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date



                      I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an



                      illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is



                      the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang



                      manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs



                      given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was



                      it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?



                      If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar



                      it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who



                      came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                      *************************************************************



                      Those were examples because I have mostly seen



                      the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't



                      have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                      If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,



                      that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs



                      does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I wo
                      uld



                      have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to



                      the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                      I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.



                      One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And



                      in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                      Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.



                      (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The



                      Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in



                      Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may



                      have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into



                      that path in 1963. So ...?



                      Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to



                      have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's



                      Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the



                      name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                      I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.



                      Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-



                      Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-



                      ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                      Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right



                      to have the truth.



                      I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                      Etznab








                      0D
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Etznab, I figured Patti had left EKankar since she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar Board the day after Klemp & his new Board went after Darwin. Joan
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 12, 2009
                        Hi Etznab,
                        I figured Patti had left EKankar since
                        she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar
                        Board the day after Klemp & his new Board
                        went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take
                        Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,
                        the same day as the resignation. Apparently
                        Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand
                        in the wings, and await, until opportunity
                        comes a knocking.

                        Prometheus


                        Prometheus,

                        I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                        ever since I started researching & posting
                        as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                        it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                        around there.

                        It's a big question mark, to me, about
                        whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                        with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                        for so many years? However, I don't think
                        Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                        mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                        she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                        believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                        she was not any longer active. Instead of
                        going into the details about this, my recoll-
                        ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                        the story in her own time, in her own way.

                        About how many books Paul Twitchell
                        finished before 1966, I think I see your
                        point.

                        Etznab


                        prometheus wrote:

                        Hello Etznab,

                        At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                        member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                        was his original source of "compiled" info

                        on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                        handed-down source since he tends to use

                        other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                        for his "EK wisdom."


                        As far as Marman goes... he speculates...

                        a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                        Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                        inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                        and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                        when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                        GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                        had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                        kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                        be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                        by thinking she'd helped people who were

                        desperate to believe in something more than

                        what they had with their former orthodox

                        religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                        other cult-like religions can say and do the

                        same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                        than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                        new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                        jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                        even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                        post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                        Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                        clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                        whom she helped to delude.



                        BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                        that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                        manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                        Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                        written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                        a book of poetry?



                        Prometheus



                        Etznab wrote:

                        About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                        Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                        experience? or something he heard / read?



                        For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                        I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                        from Jupiter.



                        ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                        L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                        of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                        can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                        something directly rather than having to discover it

                        or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                        solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                        by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                        say it at:



                        http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                        http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                        Coincidence?



                        I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                        certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                        believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                        writers for a time.



                        Etznab
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        Prometheus, I wasn t aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I had the impression she was removed. Here is why: Another interesting development in the August 7
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                          Prometheus,

                          I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                          had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                          "Another interesting development in the August
                          7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                          of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                          Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                          of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                          resolution, summarily removed from this position
                          and told that

                          ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                          both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                          ediately. [....]

                          "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                          ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                          immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                          current term of Secretary."

                          [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                          A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234] 

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56 pm
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                          JUPITER!








                          Hi Etznab,

                          I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                          she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                          Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                          went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                          Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                          the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                          Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                          in the win
                          gs, and await, until opportunity

                          comes a knocking.



                          Prometheus



                          Prometheus,



                          I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                          ever since I started researching & posting

                          as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                          it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                          around there.



                          It's a big question mark, to me, about

                          whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                          with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                          for so many years? However, I don't think

                          Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                          mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                          she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                          believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                          she was not any longer active. Instead of

                          going into the details about this, my recoll-

                          ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                          the story in her own time, in her own way.



                          About how many books Paul Twitchell

                          finished before 1966, I think I see your

                          point.



                          Etznab



                          prometheus wrote:



                          Hello Etznab,



                          At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                          member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                          was his original source of "compiled" info



                          on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                          handed-down source since he tends to use



                          other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                          for his "EK wisdom."

                          0D

                          As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                          a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                          Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                          inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                          and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                          when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                          GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                          had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                          kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                          be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                          by thinking she'd helped people who were



                          desperate to believe in something more than



                          what they had with their former orthodox



                          religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                          other cult-like religions can say and do the



                          same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                          than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                          new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                          jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                          even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                          post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                          Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                          clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                          whom she helped to delude.



                          BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                          =0
                          A
                          that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                          manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                          Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                          written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                          a book of poetry?



                          Prometheus



                          Etznab wrote:



                          About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul



                          Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual



                          experience? or something he heard / read?



                          For some reason I thought about Scientology.



                          I then searched for keywords Scientology &



                          from Jupiter.



                          ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                          L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science



                          of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"



                          can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"



                          something directly rather than having to discover it



                          or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the



                          solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited



                          by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him



                          say it at:



                          http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                          http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                          Coincidence?



                          I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and



                          certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I



                          believe Twitchell and Hubbard were
                          both science fiction



                          writers for a time.



                          Etznab
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Etznab, If I could access the Truth-Seeker site I would show the minutes from the meeting where officers and trustees were appointed along with a long
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                            Hi Etznab,
                            If I could access the Truth-Seeker
                            site I would show the minutes from
                            the meeting where officers and trustees
                            were appointed along with a long discussion
                            of what to do about Darwin. Patti was
                            appointed as Secretary during this very
                            long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.
                            A recess was taken and the meeting was
                            to resume the very next day.

                            However, Patti resigned the next day after
                            having the night to think or dream about
                            what was being done to Darwin by Klemp
                            and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan
                            documented the details differently, after
                            Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"
                            when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-
                            up began early on. A "resolution" was simply
                            done to officially accept Patti's resignation.
                            Another motion and "vote" was made into
                            a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty
                            position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman
                            to ask Patti how it went down, according to
                            her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

                            Prometheus
                            p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather
                            than take his word for what she has to say.


                            etznab wrote:

                            Prometheus,

                            I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                            had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                            "Another interesting development in the August
                            7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                            of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                            Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                            of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                            resolution, summarily removed from this position
                            and told that

                            ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                            both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                            ediately. [....]

                            "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                            ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                            immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                            current term of Secretary."

                            [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                            A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â

                            Etznab

                            Prometheus wrote:


                            Hi Etznab,

                            I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                            she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                            Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                            went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                            Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                            the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                            Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                            in the wings, and await, until opportunity

                            comes a knocking.



                            Prometheus



                            Prometheus,



                            I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                            ever since I started researching & posting

                            as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                            it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                            around there.



                            It's a big question mark, to me, about

                            whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                            with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                            for so many years? However, I don't think

                            Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                            mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                            she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                            believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                            she was not any longer active. Instead of

                            going into the details about this, my recoll-

                            ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                            the story in her own time, in her own way.



                            About how many books Paul Twitchell

                            finished before 1966, I think I see your

                            point.



                            Etznab



                            prometheus wrote:



                            Hello Etznab,



                            At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                            member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                            was his original source of "compiled" info



                            on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                            handed-down source since he tends to use



                            other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                            for his "EK wisdom."



                            As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                            a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                            Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                            inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                            and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                            when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                            GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                            had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                            kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                            be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                            by thinking she'd helped people who were



                            desperate to believe in something more than



                            what they had with their former orthodox



                            religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                            other cult-like religions can say and do the



                            same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                            than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                            new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                            jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                            even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                            post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                            Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                            clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                            whom she helped to delude.



                            BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                            =0
                            A
                            that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                            manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                            Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                            written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                            a book of poetry?



                            Prometheus
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Prometheus, Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this what I had read. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 16, 2009
                              Prometheus,

                              Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this
                              what I had read.

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                              Removed!








                              Hi Etznab,

                              If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                              site I would show the minutes from

                              the meeting where officers and trustees

                              were appointed along with a long discussion

                              of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                              appointed as Secretary during this very

                              long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                              A recess was taken and the meeting was

                              to resume the very next day.



                              However, Patti resigned the next day after

                              having the night to think or dream about

                              what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                              and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                              documented the details differently, after

                              Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                              when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                              up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                              done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                              Another motion and "vote" was made into

                              a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                              position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                              to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                              her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                              =0
                              APrometheus

                              p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                              than take his word for what she has to say.



                              etznab wrote:



                              Prometheus,



                              I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                              had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                              "Another interesting development in the August

                              7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                              of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                              Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                              of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                              resolution, summarily removed from this position

                              and told that



                              ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                              both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                              ediately. [....]



                              "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                              ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                              immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                              current term of Secretary."



                              [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                              A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                              Etznab



                              Prometheus wrote:



                              Hi Etznab,



                              I figured Patti had left EKankar since



                              she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                              Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                              went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                              Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                              the same day as th
                              e resignation. Apparently



                              Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                              in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                              comes a knocking.



                              Prometheus



                              Prometheus,



                              I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                              ever since I started researching & posting



                              as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                              it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                              around there.



                              It's a big question mark, to me, about



                              whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                              with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                              for so many years? However, I don't think



                              Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                              mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                              she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                              believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                              she was not any longer active. Instead of



                              going into the details about this, my recoll-



                              ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                              the story in her own time, in her own way.



                              About how many books Paul Twitchell



                              finished before 1966, I think I see your



                              point.



                              Etznab



                              prometheus wrote:



                              Hello Etznab,



                              At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                              member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                              0A


                              was his original source of "compiled" info



                              on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                              handed-down source since he tends to use



                              other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                              for his "EK wisdom."



                              As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                              a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                              Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                              inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                              and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                              when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                              GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                              had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                              kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                              be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                              by thinking she'd helped people who were



                              desperate to believe in something more than



                              what they had with their former orthodox



                              religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                              other cult-like religions can say and do the



                              same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                              than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                              new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                              jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                              even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                              post so
                              me tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                              Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                              clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                              whom she helped to delude.



                              BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                              =0

                              A

                              that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                              manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                              Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                              written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                              a book of poetry?



                              Prometheus
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              Something else for this thread. From The Truth-Seeker site. It doesn t have to do with the August 7th, 1983 meeting. Not unless that was the time when Patti
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 27, 2009
                                Something else for this thread. From The
                                Truth-Seeker site.

                                It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                time when Patti became not active. My
                                guess was it refers to some time later.

                                [....]

                                A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                Freeman

                                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                Doug's response:

                                "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                a response, but I assume it was February
                                2004. The 16th?

                                Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                until days later, but I think the link where he
                                did respond is currently not working.

                                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                Forum link.

                                There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                the present time.

                                At any rate, according to D
                                oug (apparently)
                                Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                at least.

                                I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                terminated or resigned from her position of
                                Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                future wife.

                                Etznab





                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                                Removed!








                                Hi Etznab,

                                If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                site I would show the minutes from

                                the meeting where officers and trustees

                                were appointed along with a long discussion

                                of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                appointed as Secretary during this very

                                long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                to resume the very next day.



                                However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                having the night to think or dream about

                                what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                documented the details differently, after

                                Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                done to officiall
                                y accept Patti's resignation.

                                Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                Prometheus

                                p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                than take his word for what she has to say.



                                etznab wrote:



                                Prometheus,



                                I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                                had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                                "Another interesting development in the August

                                7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                                of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                                Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                                of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                                resolution, summarily removed from this position

                                and told that



                                ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                                both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                                ediately. [....]



                                "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                                ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                                immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                                current term of Secretary."



                                [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                                A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                                Etznab



                                Prometheus wrote:



                                Hi Etznab,



                                I
                                figured Patti had left EKankar since



                                she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                                Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                                went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                                Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                                the same day as the resignation. Apparently



                                Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                                in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                                comes a knocking.



                                Prometheus



                                Prometheus,



                                I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                                ever since I started researching & posting



                                as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                                it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                                around there.



                                It's a big question mark, to me, about



                                whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                                with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                                for so many years? However, I don't think



                                Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                                mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                                she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                                believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                                she was not any longer active. Instead of



                                going into the details about this, my recoll-



                                ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                                the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                About how=2
                                0many books Paul Twitchell



                                finished before 1966, I think I see your



                                point.



                                Etznab



                                prometheus wrote:



                                Hello Etznab,



                                At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                was his original source of "compiled" info



                                on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                handed-down source since he tends to use



                                other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                for his "EK wisdom."



                                As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                desperate to believe in something more than



                                what they had with their former orthodox



                                religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                same. Therefore, Gai
                                l is more the KAL agent



                                than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                whom she helped to delude.



                                BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                                =0

                                A

                                that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                a book of poetry?



                                Prometheus
                              • prometheus_973
                                Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of figured that Patti wasn t active in ECKankar since she was talking so highly about Ram Dass recently. And, since she
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 2, 2009
                                  Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of
                                  figured that Patti wasn't active in ECKankar
                                  since she was talking so highly about Ram
                                  Dass recently. And, since she hasn't kept
                                  her EK Membership current, this means
                                  that her consciousness is now around
                                  that of a current 2nd Initiate! Wow! From
                                  8th to 2nd just because of a few bucks
                                  ($$$)! Actually, would a real spiritual
                                  "path" charge money to maintain one's
                                  (Soul's) inner plane level of consciousness?
                                  Well, yes! Because all of this (religions, etc.)
                                  is of the physical and Not the spiritual.
                                  That's why they sell books and other
                                  materials and require "requested" donations!
                                  The only "free lunch" (freedom) comes
                                  when Soul eliminates the middleman!

                                  Prometheus


                                  Etznab wrote:
                                  Something else for this thread. From The
                                  Truth-Seeker site.

                                  It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                  1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                  time when Patti became not active. My
                                  guess was it refers to some time later.

                                  [....]

                                  A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                  an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                  Freeman

                                  http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                  I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                  Doug's response:

                                  "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                  fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                  not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                  rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                  http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                  I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                  a response, but I assume it was February
                                  2004. The 16th?

                                  Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                  http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                  Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                  until days later, but I think the link where he
                                  did respond is currently not working.

                                  http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                  Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                  guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                  the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                  Forum link.

                                  There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                  on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                  the present time.

                                  At any rate, according to Doug (apparently)
                                  Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                  at least.

                                  I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                  or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                  terminated or resigned from her position of
                                  Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                  it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                  that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                  future wife.

                                  Etznab



                                  Hi Etznab,

                                  If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                  site I would show the minutes from

                                  the meeting where officers and trustees

                                  were appointed along with a long discussion

                                  of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                  appointed as Secretary during this very

                                  long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                  A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                  to resume the very next day.



                                  However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                  having the night to think or dream about

                                  what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                  and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                  documented the details differently, after

                                  Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                  when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                  up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                  done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                                  Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                  a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                  position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                  to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                  her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                  Prometheus

                                  p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                  than take his word for what she has to say.
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.