Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

Expand Messages
  • prometheus_973
    Klemp is a scammer and his followers are gullible New Age wannabes! How can rational and intelligent people believe in this crap! Most ECKists came from
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
      Klemp is a scammer and his followers
      are gullible New Age wannabes!

      How can rational and intelligent people
      believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
      from orthodox religions that taught
      similar fiction and myth. And, these
      Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
      New Age ones have complex dogmas
      and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
      of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
      Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

      All religions rely upon the current
      LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
      the imaginations of his believers!

      I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
      that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
      HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
      when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

      "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
      Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
      through the worlds, through the Planes
      and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
      of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
      At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
      of matter--some of the newly formed
      planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
      THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
      world of EARTH.

      Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
      formed the consciousness of man in
      the flesh temple of the human body,
      to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
      and take up the burdens of karma until
      at last, one day, each would be ready
      to return to the heavenly home." [end]

      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
      that man was "placed here by colonists
      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
      Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
      are expected to "serve."

      Here's an interesting definition from
      Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

      "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
      which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
      of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
      was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
      FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
      the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

      It's true that Twitchell was a professional
      liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
      stole the words and ideas of others without
      giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
      of spiritual experiences from chelas written
      in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
      use these as "inspiration" for his books that
      he receives 50% royalties on!

      Prometheus


      ************************************************
      ETZNAB WROTE:
      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
      when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
      mistranslated it to begin with.

      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
      all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
      the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
      years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
      empire throughout the world. [....]"

      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
      Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
      1986, p. 97 ]

      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
      its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
      crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
      of years ago. [....]"

      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
      Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

      It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
      in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
      >
      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
      The world is never without him, for the line
      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
      from JUPITER."
      >
      ME: WOW! JUPITER!
      >
      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
      >
      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
      JUPITER!"
      >
      Where are the other RACES from?
      >
      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
      I don't think so!!!
      >
      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
      from?
      >
      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
      Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
      another Klemp story! Yawn!
      >
      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
      >
      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
      >
      Prometheus
      >
      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
      >
      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
      of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
      for his contradictions of information? Or, does
      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
      and is more focused upon those Souls residing
      on the Inner Planes? LOL!
      >
      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
    • etznab@aol.com
      More space-people & Eckankar trivia. Eckankar was brought here from Venus by a little known race which is living in Agam Des, and whom we know as the Eshwar
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
        More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

        "Eckankar was brought here from Venus by a little
        known race which is living in Agam Des, and whom
        we know as the Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
        in italics], or simply as the God-eaters. These beings
        are members of the Ancient Brotherhood, or Order, of
        the Vairagi. They attained their name, the god-eaters,
        from the fact that they absorb cosmic energies instead
        of assimilating plants and other foods." [my brackets]

        Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers, Copyright 1971,
        2nd printing 1987, p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 2:31 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!



        Klemp is a scammer and his followers

        are gullible New Age wannabes!



        How can rational and intelligent people

        believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

        from orthodox religions that taught

        similar fiction and myth. And, these

        Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

        New Age ones have complex dogmas

        and glowing "spiritual" testimonials

        of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

        Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



        All religions rely upon the current

        LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

        the imaginations of his believers!



        I'm still wondering how Klemp can sa
        y

        that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

        HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

        when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



        "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

        Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

        through the worlds, through the Planes

        and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

        of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

        At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

        of matter--some of the newly formed

        planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

        THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

        world of EARTH.



        Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

        formed the consciousness of man in

        the flesh temple of the human body,

        to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

        and take up the burdens of karma until

        at last, one day, each would be ready

        to return to the heavenly home." [end]



        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

        that man was "placed here by colonists

        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

        Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

        are expected to "serve."



        Here's an interesting definition from

        Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



        "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

        which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

        of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

        was the FIRST20MAN and EDE, the

        FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

        the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."



        It's true that Twitchell was a professional

        liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

        stole the words and ideas of others without

        giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

        of spiritual experiences from chelas written

        in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

        use these as "inspiration" for his books that

        he receives 50% royalties on!



        Prometheus



        ************************************************

        ETZNAB WROTE:

        Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

        when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

        mistranslated it to begin with.



        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

        all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

        the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

        years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

        empire throughout the world. [....]"



        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,

        Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

        1986, p. 97 ]



        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

        its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

        crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

        of years ago. [....]"



        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book

        Two, Second Edition - 1
        988, p. 112]



        It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans

        in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!



        prometheus wrote:

        >

        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

        >

        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

        The world is never without him, for the line

        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

        from JUPITER."

        >

        ME: WOW! JUPITER!

        >

        When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

        in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

        the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

        >

        People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

        to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

        JUPITER!"

        >

        Where are the other RACES from?

        >

        Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

        I don't think so!!!

        >

        What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

        from?

        >

        Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

        Far Away? That sounds like the makings for

        another Klemp story! Yawn!

        >

        Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

        Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

        Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

        covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

        >

        This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

        question to the inner"=2
        0works in Eckankar!

        >

        Prometheus

        >

        P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

        just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

        Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

        too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

        we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

        aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

        >

        Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

        the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

        of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

        for his contradictions of information? Or, does

        Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

        and is more focused upon those Souls residing

        on the Inner Planes? LOL!

        >

        I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

        sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

        Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

        it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

        by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Etznab and All, Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit! Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS! Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
          Hi Etznab and All,
          Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
          (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
          Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

          Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
          Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
          mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

          "CLARION. A planet where higher
          evolved Souls are living to help carry
          on the work of GOD throughout the
          universe."

          Etznab wrote:

          More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

          "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
          by a little known race which is living in
          Agam Des, and whom we know as the
          Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
          in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
          These beings are members of the Ancient
          Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
          They attained their name, the god-eaters,
          from the fact that they absorb cosmic
          energies instead of assimilating plants
          and other foods." [my brackets]

          Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
          Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
          p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

          ******************************************

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          Klemp is a scammer and his followers
          are gullible New Age wannabes!
          >
          How can rational and intelligent people
          believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
          from orthodox religions that taught
          similar fiction and myth. And, these
          Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
          New Age ones have complex dogmas
          and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
          of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
          Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
          >
          All religions rely upon the current
          LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
          the imaginations of his believers!
          >
          I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
          that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
          HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
          when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
          >
          "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
          Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
          through the worlds, through the Planes
          and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
          of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
          At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
          of matter--some of the newly formed
          planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
          THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
          world of EARTH.
          >
          Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
          formed the consciousness of man in
          the flesh temple of the human body,
          to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
          and take up the burdens of karma until
          at last, one day, each would be ready
          to return to the heavenly home." [end]
          >
          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
          that man was "placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
          are expected to "serve."
          >
          Here's an interesting definition from
          Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
          >
          "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
          which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
          of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
          was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
          FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
          the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
          >
          It's true that Twitchell was a professional
          liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
          stole the words and ideas of others without
          giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
          of spiritual experiences from chelas written
          in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
          use these as "inspiration" for his books that
          he receives 50% royalties on!
          >
          Prometheus
          >
          ************************************************
          ETZNAB WROTE:
          Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
          when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
          mistranslated it to begin with.
          >
          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
          all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
          the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
          years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
          empire throughout the world. [....]"
          >
          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
          1986, p. 97 ]
          >
          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
          its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
          crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
          of years ago. [....]"
          >
          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
          >
          It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
          in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

          prometheus wrote:
          > >
          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
          > >
          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
          The world is never without him, for the line
          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER."
          > >
          ME: WOW! JUPITER!
          > >
          When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
          in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
          the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
          > >
          People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
          to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
          JUPITER!"
          > >
          Where are the other RACES from?
          > >
          Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
          I don't think sooooo!!!
          > >
          What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
          from?
          > >
          Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
          Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
          another Klemp story! Yawn!
          > >
          Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
          Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
          Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
          covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
          > >
          This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
          question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
          > >
          Prometheus
          > >
          P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
          just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
          Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
          too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
          we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
          aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
          > >
          Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
          the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
          of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
          for his contradictions of information? Or, does
          Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
          and is more focused upon those Souls residing
          on the Inner Planes? LOL!
          > >
          I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
          sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
          Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
          it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
          by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Etznab and All, It s interesting that Twitchell says that the God-Eaters and the Order of the Vairagi, are a RACE and Twitch states that they are
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 6, 2008
            Hello Etznab and All,
            It's interesting that Twitchell says that
            the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
            Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
            that they are from both Venus and Agam
            Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
            Agam Des is located on Earth!

            Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
            and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
            reside there as a GOD-EATER.

            BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
            Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
            SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
            or Eckankar copyright is he!

            "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:

            "At the European and African ECK Seminars
            we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
            ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
            'What is the HU?"

            Klemp now tells of a reported experience
            of a female ECKist attending.

            "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
            she shut her eyes and chanted with the
            audience, silently asking three times, 'What
            is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
            to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
            again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
            face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."

            The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
            Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
            gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
            Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
            Plane!

            Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
            "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
            How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
            if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
            Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
            subjective experience!

            Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
            where's the portrait of SAT NAM?

            Check out these sites-

            http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam

            Prometheus

            Thanks for the following info Etznab:

            "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
            by a little known RACE which is living in
            AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
            ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
            GOD-EATERS.

            These beings are members of the ANCIENT
            BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
            They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
            from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
            ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
            plants and other foods."

            Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
            Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
            p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
            > are gullible New Age wannabes!
            >
            > How can rational and intelligent people
            > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
            > from orthodox religions that taught
            > similar fiction and myth. And, these
            > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
            > New Age ones have complex dogmas
            > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
            > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
            > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
            >
            > All religions rely upon the current
            > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
            > the imaginations of his believers!
            >
            > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
            > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
            > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
            > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
            >
            > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
            > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
            > through the worlds, through the Planes
            > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
            > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
            > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
            > of matter--some of the newly formed
            > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
            > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
            > world of EARTH.
            >
            > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
            > formed the consciousness of man in
            > the flesh temple of the human body,
            > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
            > and take up the burdens of karma until
            > at last, one day, each would be ready
            > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
            >
            > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
            > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
            > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
            > that man was "placed here by colonists
            > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
            > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
            > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
            > are expected to "serve."
            >
            > Here's an interesting definition from
            > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
            >
            > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
            > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
            > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
            > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
            > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
            > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
            >
            > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
            > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
            > stole the words and ideas of others without
            > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
            > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
            > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
            > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
            > he receives 50% royalties on!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > ************************************************
            > ETZNAB WROTE:
            > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
            > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
            > mistranslated it to begin with.
            >
            > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
            > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
            > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
            > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
            > empire throughout the world. [....]"
            >
            > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
            > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
            > 1986, p. 97 ]
            >
            > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
            > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
            > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
            > of years ago. [....]"
            >
            > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
            > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
            >
            > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
            > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
            > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
            > >
            > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
            > The world is never without him, for the line
            > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
            > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
            > from JUPITER."
            > >
            > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
            > >
            > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
            > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
            > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
            > >
            > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
            > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
            > JUPITER!"
            > >
            > Where are the other RACES from?
            > >
            > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
            > I don't think so!!!
            > >
            > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
            > from?
            > >
            > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
            > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
            > another Klemp story! Yawn!
            > >
            > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
            > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
            > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
            > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
            > >
            > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
            > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
            > >
            > Prometheus
            > >
            > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
            > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
            > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
            > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
            > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
            > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
            > >
            > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
            > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
            > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
            > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
            > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
            > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
            > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
            > >
            > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
            > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
            > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
            > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
            > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
            >
          • prometheus_973
            GOTTA is mentioned on page 82 of the EK Lexicon and was among the 1st of the Vairagi Order... claims both Twit and Klemp. However, HERACLITUS is Not mentioned
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 8, 2008
              GOTTA is mentioned on page 82
              of the EK Lexicon and was among
              the 1st of the Vairagi Order...
              claims both Twit and Klemp.

              However, HERACLITUS is Not
              mentioned as an ECK Master,
              although, the HERACLIANS are
              mentioned as a future ROOT
              race in Klemp's Lexicon!

              At least now I know where both
              Klemp and Twit found their info
              in order to twist their facts.

              "Heraclians. A future ROOT RACE
              to conquer and control the world;
              fair and just, they will rule around
              the year 6025 A.D., and the
              civilization will last from 500 to 1000
              years." [EK Lexicon, Copyright 1998,
              pg. 87]

              "HERACLIANS. The FIFTH RACE to
              conquer and control the world of the
              future; fair and just, they will rule
              around the year 6025 and the
              civilization will last from 500 to 1000
              years." [PT's Eckankar Dictionary,
              Sixth Printing 1986, pg. 60]

              Interesting that Klemp CHANGED
              Twitchell's info and refers to these
              people as a future "ROOT" race while
              PT says that this is the "FIFTH" race
              to conquer and control the world.
              Isn't the FIFTH RACE, according to
              ECK DOGMA, the ARYAN RACE!
              It seems that Klemp is cleaning up
              PT's crap again, or maybe HK mistakenly
              misinterpreted what Twit was really
              saying???

              BTW- Both Twit and Klemp give this
              same definition:

              "ARRIANS. A cruel race which will
              take over Earth about the year 3500
              A.D., later spreading to Mars and Venus."
              [EK Lexicon, pg.11]


              HK-"The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1985:

              "HERACLITUS, the ancient Greek philosopher,
              had a Mental Concept of the ECK that
              reduced It to the level of the Mind Power.
              BUT Heraclitus saw that Reality in the
              Universe is at the mercy of the LAW
              of CHANGE, since THINGS FLOW IN the
              Universe all the time...

              For us, the conflict of mind and Spirit boils
              down to a practical issue: Who takes care
              of things--God or me?

              Mostly, it is the initiate who must take
              care of himself.

              The Mahanta shows him HOW TO get
              insights from the ECK through intuition,
              Soul Travel, or dreams.

              A PERSON IN THE ECK LINE OF UNFOLDMENT
              IS SOON ABLE TO GET FREE OF THE HOPELESS
              HUMAN CONDITION AND RISE ABOVE IT INTO
              THE PURE STATES OF WISDOM, FREEDOM, AND
              IMMORTALITY." [end of quote]

              So, this ECK Unfoldment to the PURE STATES
              of Wisdom, Freedom and Immortality takes
              place SOON for the chela!

              That's BULLSHIT isn't it!

              The only "plus factor" in Eckankar is that
              there is always another Catch-22 and hoop
              to jump through! Fame and Service are key
              for promotion to a 7th and/or RESA position.

              How to become a Klemp minion: Pull in
              a lot of new members and money like Don
              and Bob and a 7th RESA can make it to
              the 8th. Marry the Klempster, become a
              Trustee, Pres. or V.P. of the ORG, or be on
              the Spiritual Council and one can get an 8th
              too! The thing is... narcissists just don't
              want to share the power! This is why
              Klemp doesn't promote more people
              into the 8th & 9th Circles and why he
              really "slowed down" the initiations. It's
              all just too obvious!

              Prometheus


              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello Etznab and All,
              > It's interesting that Twitchell says that
              > the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
              > Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
              > that they are from both Venus and Agam
              > Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
              > Agam Des is located on Earth!
              >
              > Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
              > and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
              > reside there as a GOD-EATER.
              >
              > BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
              > Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
              > SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
              > or Eckankar copyright is he!
              >
              > "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:
              >
              > "At the European and African ECK Seminars
              > we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
              > ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
              > 'What is the HU?"
              >
              > Klemp now tells of a reported experience
              > of a female ECKist attending.
              >
              > "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
              > she shut her eyes and chanted with the
              > audience, silently asking three times, 'What
              > is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
              > to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
              > again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
              > face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."
              >
              > The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
              > Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
              > gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
              > Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
              > Plane!
              >
              > Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
              > "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
              > How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
              > if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
              > Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
              > subjective experience!
              >
              > Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
              > where's the portrait of SAT NAM?
              >
              > Check out these sites-
              >
              > http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > Thanks for the following info Etznab:
              >
              > "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
              > by a little known RACE which is living in
              > AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
              > ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
              > GOD-EATERS.
              >
              > These beings are members of the ANCIENT
              > BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
              > They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
              > from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
              > ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
              > plants and other foods."
              >
              > Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
              > Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
              > p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
              > > are gullible New Age wannabes!
              > >
              > > How can rational and intelligent people
              > > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
              > > from orthodox religions that taught
              > > similar fiction and myth. And, these
              > > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
              > > New Age ones have complex dogmas
              > > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
              > > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
              > > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
              > >
              > > All religions rely upon the current
              > > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
              > > the imaginations of his believers!
              > >
              > > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
              > > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
              > > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
              > > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
              > >
              > > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
              > > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
              > > through the worlds, through the Planes
              > > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
              > > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
              > > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
              > > of matter--some of the newly formed
              > > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
              > > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
              > > world of EARTH.
              > >
              > > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
              > > formed the consciousness of man in
              > > the flesh temple of the human body,
              > > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
              > > and take up the burdens of karma until
              > > at last, one day, each would be ready
              > > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
              > >
              > > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
              > > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
              > > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
              > > that man was "placed here by colonists
              > > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
              > > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
              > > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
              > > are expected to "serve."
              > >
              > > Here's an interesting definition from
              > > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
              > >
              > > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
              > > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
              > > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
              > > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
              > > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
              > > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
              > >
              > > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
              > > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
              > > stole the words and ideas of others without
              > > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
              > > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
              > > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
              > > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
              > > he receives 50% royalties on!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > > ************************************************
              > > ETZNAB WROTE:
              > > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
              > > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
              > > mistranslated it to begin with.
              > >
              > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
              > > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
              > > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
              > > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
              > > empire throughout the world. [....]"
              > >
              > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
              > > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
              > > 1986, p. 97 ]
              > >
              > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
              > > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
              > > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
              > > of years ago. [....]"
              > >
              > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
              > > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
              > >
              > > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
              > > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
              > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
              > > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
              > > >
              > > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
              > > The world is never without him, for the line
              > > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
              > > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
              > > from JUPITER."
              > > >
              > > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
              > > >
              > > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
              > > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
              > > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
              > > >
              > > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
              > > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
              > > JUPITER!"
              > > >
              > > Where are the other RACES from?
              > > >
              > > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
              > > I don't think so!!!
              > > >
              > > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
              > > from?
              > > >
              > > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
              > > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
              > > another Klemp story! Yawn!
              > > >
              > > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
              > > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
              > > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
              > > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
              > > >
              > > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
              > > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
              > > >
              > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
              > > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
              > > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
              > > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
              > > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
              > > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
              > > >
              > > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
              > > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
              > > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
              > > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
              > > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
              > > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
              > > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
              > > >
              > > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
              > > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
              > > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
              > > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
              > > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking to seekers?
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 12, 2008
                I thought I'd bring this back for
                another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
                Ever to mention the Jupiter and
                Venus connection with the EK
                Masters when speaking to seekers?
                Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
                ever to mention the lifetime "service"
                requirement to new seekers? No,
                again! I wonder, why Not? Too
                much Truth... they'd get spiritual
                indigestion!!!

                Prometheus


                Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

                Hi Etznab and All,
                Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
                (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
                Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

                Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
                Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
                mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

                "CLARION. A planet where higher
                evolved Souls are living to help carry
                on the work of GOD throughout the
                universe."

                Etznab wrote:

                More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

                "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
                by a little known race which is living in
                Agam Des, and whom we know as the
                Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
                in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
                These beings are members of the Ancient
                Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
                They attained their name, the god-eaters,
                from the fact that they absorb cosmic
                energies instead of assimilating plants
                and other foods." [my brackets]

                Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

                ******************************************

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                are gullible New Age wannabes!
                >
                How can rational and intelligent people
                believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                from orthodox religions that taught
                similar fiction and myth. And, these
                Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                New Age ones have complex dogmas
                and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                >
                All religions rely upon the current
                LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                the imaginations of his believers!
                >
                I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
                >
                "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                through the worlds, through the Planes
                and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                of matter--some of the newly formed
                planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                world of EARTH.
                >
                Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                formed the consciousness of man in
                the flesh temple of the human body,
                to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                and take up the burdens of karma until
                at last, one day, each would be ready
                to return to the heavenly home." [end]
                >
                I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                that man was "placed here by colonists
                from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                are expected to "serve."
                >
                Here's an interesting definition from
                Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                >
                "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                >
                It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                stole the words and ideas of others without
                giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                he receives 50% royalties on!
                >
                Prometheus
                >
                ************************************************
                ETZNAB WROTE:
                Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                mistranslated it to begin with.
                >
                "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                empire throughout the world. [....]"
                >
                [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                1986, p. 97 ]
                >
                "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                of years ago. [....]"
                >
                [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                >
                It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
                in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

                prometheus wrote:
                > >
                Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                > >
                "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                The world is never without him, for the line
                of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                from JUPITER."
                > >
                ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                > >
                When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                > >
                People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                JUPITER!"
                > >
                Where are the other RACES from?
                > >
                Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                I don't think sooooo!!!
                > >
                What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                from?
                > >
                Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                another Klemp story! Yawn!
                > >
                Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                > >
                This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                > >
                Prometheus
                > >
                P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                > >
                Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                > >
                I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 6, 2009
                  Hello All,
                  I thought I'd bring this back for
                  another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
                  Ever to mention the Jupiter and
                  Venus connection with the EK
                  Masters when speaking to seekers?
                  Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
                  ever to mention the lifetime "service"
                  requirement to new seekers? No,
                  again! I wonder, why Not? Too
                  much Truth... they'd get spiritual
                  indigestion!!!

                  - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -

                  Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                  "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING
                  1984 writes:

                  "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
                  The world is never without him, for the line
                  of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                  ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                  from JUPITER."

                  Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
                  (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
                  Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

                  Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
                  Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
                  mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

                  "CLARION. A planet where higher
                  evolved Souls are living to help carry
                  on the work of GOD throughout the
                  universe."

                  Etznab wrote:

                  More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

                  "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
                  by a little known race which is living in
                  Agam Des, and whom we know as the
                  Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
                  in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
                  These beings are members of the Ancient
                  Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
                  They attained their name, the god-eaters,
                  from the fact that they absorb cosmic
                  energies instead of assimilating plants
                  and other foods." [my brackets]

                  Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                  Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                  p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

                  ******************************************

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                  are gullible New Age wannabes!
                  >
                  How can rational and intelligent people
                  believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                  from orthodox religions that taught
                  similar fiction and myth. And, these
                  Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                  New Age ones have complex dogmas
                  and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                  of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                  Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                  >
                  All religions rely upon the current
                  LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                  the imaginations of his believers!
                  >
                  I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                  that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                  HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                  when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

                  "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                  Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                  through the worlds, through the Planes
                  and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                  of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                  At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                  of matter--some of the newly formed
                  planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                  THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                  world of EARTH.

                  Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                  formed the consciousness of man in
                  the flesh temple of the human body,
                  to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                  and take up the burdens of karma until
                  at last, one day, each would be ready
                  to return to the heavenly home." [end]

                  I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                  5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                  1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                  that man was "placed here by colonists
                  from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                  secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                  Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                  are expected to "serve."
                  >
                  Here's an interesting definition from
                  Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                  >
                  "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                  which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                  of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                  was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                  FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                  the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                  >
                  It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                  liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                  stole the words and ideas of others without
                  giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                  of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                  in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                  use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                  he receives 50% royalties on!
                  >
                  Prometheus
                  >
                  ************************************************
                  ETZNAB WROTE:
                  Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                  when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                  mistranslated it to begin with.
                  >
                  "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                  all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                  the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                  years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                  empire throughout the world. [....]"
                  >
                  [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                  Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                  1986, p. 97 ]
                  >
                  "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                  its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                  crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                  of years ago. [....]"
                  >
                  [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                  Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                  >
                  It looks like someone got rid of that reference
                  to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took
                  until 1988!

                  prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                  "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                  > >
                  "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                  The world is never without him, for the line
                  of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                  ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                  from JUPITER."
                  > >
                  ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                  > >
                  When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                  in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                  the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                  > >
                  People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                  to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                  JUPITER!"
                  > >
                  Where are the other RACES from?
                  > >
                  Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                  I don't think sooooo!!!
                  > >
                  What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                  from?
                  > >
                  Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                  Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                  another Klemp story! Yawn!
                  > >
                  Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                  Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                  Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                  covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                  > >
                  This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                  question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                  > >
                  Prometheus
                  > >
                  P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                  just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                  Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                  too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                  we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                  aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                  > >
                  Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                  the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                  of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                  for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                  Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                  and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                  on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                  > >
                  I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                  sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                  Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                  it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                  by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Prometheus, You illustrated: I don t see how Klemp got it that the 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially, that man was
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                    Prometheus,

                    You illustrated:

                    I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                    5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                    1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                    that man was "placed here by colonists
                    from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                    secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                    Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                    are expected to "serve."

                    That was a good point, I thought. Because
                    legends, myths, fables and folktales are part
                    of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not
                    in the beginning, they seep in over time when
                    people speculate about what they read, and /
                    or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo
                    (man-made) religion / history are a part of the
                    organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However
                    when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &
                    actually happened I believe people have every
                    right to challenge such allegations.

                    Here are some examples. The early manu-
                    scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The
                    Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later
                    1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books
                    by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.

                    These are examples about truth vs. fiction -
                    not because I absolutely know all the details -
                    but because the subject is "suspicious" and
                    /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.

                    Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal
                    Singh round about the mid 50s when the two
                    manuscripts were reportedly written.

                    In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his
                    0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.

                    In one of your past posts (I don't have the #
                    or date) you wrote:

                    "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on
                    his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came
                    back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second
                    was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."

                    I think that information was mentioned in Ford
                    Johnson's book, too.

                    Consider what Doug Marman gave back around
                    the year 2000:

                    ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but
                    did nothing with the book until he offered it to
                    Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues
                    With The Master around 1956, from the refer-
                    ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.
                    Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but
                    didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion
                    Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's
                    writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't
                    published until 1970."

                    [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]

                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

                    I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-
                    cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of
                    them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal
                    Singh.

                    Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal
                    Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in
                    Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson
                    wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"
                    by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.

                    =0
                    A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,
                    since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-
                    scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar
                    terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh
                    reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.
                    And it might possibly have been in the possession
                    of Eckankar for a number of years.

                    According to Kirpal Singh?

                    "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,
                    The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-
                    ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.
                    He changed that book before printing; where he men-
                    tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."

                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm

                    My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh
                    dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.
                    MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED
                    THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS
                    BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY
                    THAT NAME!

                    Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early
                    manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it
                    has the manuscript in its possession.

                    There has been controversy over when the name of
                    Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date
                    I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an
                    illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is
                    the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang
                    manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs
                    given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was
                    it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?
                    If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar
                    it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who
                    came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?

                    *************************************************************

                    Those were examples because I have mostly seen
                    the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't
                    have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.

                    If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,
                    that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs
                    does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would
                    have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to
                    the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.

                    I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.
                    One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And
                    in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.

                    Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.
                    (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The
                    Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in
                    Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may
                    have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into
                    that path in 1963. So ...?

                    Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to
                    have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's
                    Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the
                    name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

                    I have asked ab
                    out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.
                    Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-
                    Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-
                    ists. Even long-time members from the early days.

                    Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right
                    to have the truth.

                    I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.

                    Etznab


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!








                    Hello All,

                    I thought I'd bring this back for

                    another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas

                    Ever to mention the Jupiter and

                    Venus connection with the EK

                    Masters when speaking to seekers?

                    Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas

                    ever to mention the lifetime "service"

                    requirement to new seekers? No,

                    again! I wonder, why Not? Too

                    much Truth... they'd get spiritual

                    indigestion!!!



                    - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -



                    Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

                    "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING

                    1984 writes:



                    "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,

                    The world is never without him, for the line

                    of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

                    ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

                    from JUPITER."



                    Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods

                    (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D

                    Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                    Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from

                    Clarion! Klemp even has this planet

                    mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                    "CLARION. A planet where higher

                    evolved Souls are living to help carry

                    on the work of GOD throughout the

                    universe."



                    Etznab wrote:



                    More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                    "Eckankar was brought here from Venus

                    by a little known race which is living in

                    Agam Des, and whom we know as the

                    Eshwar Khanewale [last two words

                    in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.

                    These beings are members of the Ancient

                    Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.

                    They attained their name, the god-eaters,

                    from the fact that they absorb cosmic

                    energies instead of assimilating plants

                    and other foods." [my brackets]



                    Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,

                    Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,

                    p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                    ******************************************



                    prometheus wrote:

                    >

                    Klemp is a scammer and his followers

                    are gullible New Age wannabes!

                    >

                    How can rational and intelligent people

                    believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

                    from orthodox religions that taught

                    similar fiction and myth. And, these

                    Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

                    New Age ones have complex dogmas

                    and glowing "spiritual" test
                    imonials

                    of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

                    Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

                    >

                    All religions rely upon the current

                    LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

                    the imaginations of his believers!

                    >

                    I'm still wondering how Klemp can say

                    that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

                    HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

                    when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                    "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

                    Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

                    through the worlds, through the Planes

                    and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

                    of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

                    At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

                    of matter--some of the newly formed

                    planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

                    THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

                    world of EARTH.



                    Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

                    formed the consciousness of man in

                    the flesh temple of the human body,

                    to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

                    and take up the burdens of karma until

                    at last, one day, each would be ready

                    to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                    I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                    5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                    1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                    that man was "placed here by colonists

                    from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                    secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                    Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists

                    are expected to "serve."

                    >

                    Here's an interesting definition from

                    Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

                    >

                    "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

                    which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

                    of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

                    was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the

                    FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

                    the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

                    >

                    It's true that Twitchell was a professional

                    liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

                    stole the words and ideas of others without

                    giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

                    of spiritual experiences from chelas written

                    in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

                    use these as "inspiration" for his books that

                    he receives 50% royalties on!

                    >

                    Prometheus

                    >

                    ************************************************

                    ETZNAB WROTE:

                    Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

                    when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

                    mistranslated it to begin with.

                    >

                    "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

                    all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

                    the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

                    years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

                    empire throughout the world. [....]"

                    >

                    [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

                    Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

                    1986, p. 97 ]

                    >

                    0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

                    its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

                    crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

                    of years ago. [....]"

                    >

                    [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

                    Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

                    >

                    It looks like someone got rid of that reference

                    to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took

                    until 1988!



                    prometheus wrote:

                    > >

                    Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

                    "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

                    > >

                    "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

                    The world is never without him, for the line

                    of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

                    ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

                    from JUPITER."

                    > >

                    ME: WOW! JUPITER!

                    > >

                    When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

                    in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

                    the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

                    > >

                    People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

                    to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

                    JUPITER!"

                    > >

                    Where are the other RACES from?

                    > >

                    Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

                    I don't think sooooo!!!

                    > >

                    What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

                    from?

                    > >

                    Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

                    Far Away? That sounds like t
                    he makings for

                    another Klemp story! Yawn!

                    > >

                    Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

                    Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

                    Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

                    covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

                    > >

                    This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

                    question to the inner" works in Eckankar!

                    > >

                    Prometheus

                    > >

                    P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

                    just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

                    Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

                    too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

                    we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

                    aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

                    > >

                    Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

                    the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

                    of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

                    for his contradictions of information? Or, does

                    Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

                    and is more focused upon those Souls residing

                    on the Inner Planes? LOL!

                    > >

                    I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

                    sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

                    Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

                    it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

                    by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or something he heard / read? For some reason I thought
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                      About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell
                      got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or
                      something he heard / read?

                      For some reason I thought about Scientology. I then
                      searched for keywords Scientology & from Jupiter.

                      ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                      L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                      of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing" can
                      raise your abilities to the point where you "know" something
                      directly rather than having to discover it or learn it. He spoke
                      authoritatively about life in the solar system. He claimed that
                      Jupiter was inhabited by people who looked like Eskimos.
                      You can hear him say it at:

                      http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                      http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                      Coincidence?

                      I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                      certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                      believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                      writers for a time.

                      Etznab





                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: etznab@...
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:04 pm
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From
                      JUPITER!








                      Prometheus,



                      You illustrated:



                      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                      that man was "placed here by colonists

                      from JUPITER." This is20another dirty little

                      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                      Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                      are expected to "serve."



                      That was a good point, I thought. Because

                      legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                      of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                      in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                      people speculate about what they read, and /

                      or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                      (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                      organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                      when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                      actually happened I believe people have every

                      right to challenge such allegations.



                      Here are some examples. The early manu-

                      scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                      Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                      1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                      by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                      These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                      not because I absolutely know all the details -

                      but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                      /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                      Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                      Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                      manuscripts were reportedly written.



                      In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                      0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                      In one of your past posts (I don't have the #=0
                      D

                      or date) you wrote:



                      "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                      his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                      back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                      was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                      I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                      Johnson's book, too.



                      Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                      the year 2000:



                      ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                      did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                      Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                      With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                      ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                      Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                      didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                      Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                      writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                      published until 1970."



                      [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                      I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                      cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                      them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                      Singh.



                      Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                      Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                      Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                      wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                      by Rebazar T
                      arzs to Paul Twitchell.



                      =0

                      A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                      since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                      scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                      terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                      reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                      And it might possibly have been in the possession

                      of Eckankar for a number of years.



                      According to Kirpal Singh?



                      "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                      The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                      ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                      He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                      tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                      My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                      dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                      MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                      THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                      BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                      THAT NAME!



                      Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                      manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it

                      has the manuscript in its possession.



                      There has been controversy over when the name of

                      Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                      I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                      illustrated Rebazar Tarzs h
                      istory prior to that, where is

                      the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                      manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                      given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                      it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                      If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                      it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                      came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                      *************************************************************



                      Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                      the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                      have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                      If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                      that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                      does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                      have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                      the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                      I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                      One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                      in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                      Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                      (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                      Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                      Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                      have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                      that path in 1963. So ...?




                      Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                      have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                      Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                      name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                      I have asked ab

                      out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                      Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                      Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                      ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                      Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                      to have the truth.



                      I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                      Etznab



                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                      Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm

                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!



                      Hello All,



                      I thought I'd bring this back for



                      another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas



                      Ever to mention the Jupiter and



                      Venus connection with the EK



                      Masters when speaking to seekers?



                      Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas



                      ever to mention the lifetime "service"



                      requirement to new seekers? No,



                      again! I wonder, why Not? Too



                      much Truth... they'd get spiritual



                      indigestion!!!



                      - Aryans Are Fr
                      om JUPITER! -



                      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING



                      1984 writes:



                      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,



                      The world is never without him, for the line



                      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                      from JUPITER."



                      Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods



                      (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D



                      Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                      Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from



                      Clarion! Klemp even has this planet



                      mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                      "CLARION. A planet where higher



                      evolved Souls are living to help carry



                      on the work of GOD throughout the



                      universe."



                      Etznab wrote:



                      More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                      "Eckankar was brought here from Venus



                      by a little known race which is living in



                      Agam Des, and whom we know as the



                      Eshwar Khanewale [last two words



                      in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.



                      These beings are members of the Ancient



                      Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.



                      They attained their name, the god-eaters,



                      from the fact that they absorb cosmic



                      energies instead of assimilating plants



                      and other20foods." [my brackets]



                      Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,



                      Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,



                      p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                      ******************************************



                      prometheus wrote:



                      >



                      Klemp is a scammer and his followers



                      are gullible New Age wannabes!



                      >



                      How can rational and intelligent people



                      believe in this crap! Most ECKists came



                      from orthodox religions that taught



                      similar fiction and myth. And, these



                      Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the



                      New Age ones have complex dogmas



                      and glowing "spiritual" test

                      imonials



                      of miracles, visitations by angels and/or



                      Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



                      >



                      All religions rely upon the current



                      LEADER's ability to control and manipulate



                      the imaginations of his believers!



                      >



                      I'm still wondering how Klemp can say



                      that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED



                      HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"



                      when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                      "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL



                      Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD



                      through the worlds, through the Planes



                      and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds



                      =0
                      Aof the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.



                      At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds



                      of matter--some of the newly formed



                      planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and



                      THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little



                      world of EARTH.



                      Many CAME to the EARTH planet and



                      formed the consciousness of man in



                      the flesh temple of the human body,



                      to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,



                      and take up the burdens of karma until



                      at last, one day, each would be ready



                      to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                      that man was "placed here by colonists



                      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little



                      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                      Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists



                      are expected to "serve."



                      >



                      Here's an interesting definition from



                      Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



                      >



                      "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE



                      which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN



                      of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM



                      was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the



                      FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of



                      the RACES OF
                      MAN upon EARTH."



                      >



                      It's true that Twitchell was a professional



                      liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit



                      stole the words and ideas of others without



                      giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories



                      of spiritual experiences from chelas written



                      in Initiate Reports and letters in order to



                      use these as "inspiration" for his books that



                      he receives 50% royalties on!



                      >



                      Prometheus



                      >



                      ************************************************



                      ETZNAB WROTE:



                      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up



                      when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone



                      mistranslated it to begin with.



                      >



                      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and



                      all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under



                      the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of



                      years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the



                      empire throughout the world. [....]"



                      >



                      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                      Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,



                      1986, p. 97 ]



                      >



                      0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all



                      its colonial empire came about by gas po
                      ckets under the



                      crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands



                      of years ago. [....]"



                      >



                      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                      Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]



                      >



                      It looks like someone got rid of that reference



                      to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took



                      until 1988!



                      prometheus wrote:



                      > >



                      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



                      > >



                      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.



                      The world is never without him, for the line



                      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                      from JUPITER."



                      > >



                      ME: WOW! JUPITER!



                      > >



                      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"



                      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is



                      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



                      > >



                      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according



                      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from



                      JUPITER!"



                      > >



                      Where are the other RACES from?



                      > >



                      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?



                      I don't think sooooo!!!
                      =0
                      A


                      > >



                      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES



                      from?



                      > >



                      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far



                      Far Away? That sounds like t

                      he makings for



                      another Klemp story! Yawn!



                      > >



                      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that



                      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi



                      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was



                      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



                      > >



                      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your



                      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



                      > >



                      Prometheus



                      > >



                      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or



                      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the



                      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter



                      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did



                      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we



                      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



                      > >



                      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All



                      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more



                      of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)



                      for his contradictions of information? Or, does



                      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)


                      0A
                      and is more focused upon those Souls residing



                      on the Inner Planes? LOL!



                      > >



                      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound



                      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield



                      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could



                      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced



                      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Etznab, At one time Twitchell was a high ranking member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron was his original source of compiled info on Jupiter. Thus, this
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                        Hello Etznab,
                        At one time Twitchell was a high ranking
                        member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                        was his original source of "compiled" info
                        on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's
                        handed-down source since he tends to use
                        other people (usually dead) as inspiration
                        for his "EK wisdom."

                        As far as Marman goes... he speculates...
                        a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!

                        Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who
                        inspired him to take his piles of "research"
                        and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963
                        when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame
                        GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's
                        had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's
                        kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must
                        be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role
                        by thinking she'd helped people who were
                        desperate to believe in something more than
                        what they had with their former orthodox
                        religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and
                        other cult-like religions can say and do the
                        same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent
                        than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's
                        new buds. Gail should do the right thing and
                        jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could
                        even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and
                        post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or
                        Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to
                        clear her conscience and protect those Souls
                        whom she helped to delude.

                        BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say
                        that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang
                        manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.
                        Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/
                        written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,
                        a book of poetry?

                        Prometheus

                        Etznab wrote:
                        About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul
                        Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual
                        experience? or something he heard / read?

                        For some reason I thought about Scientology.
                        I then searched for keywords Scientology &
                        from Jupiter.

                        ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                        L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                        of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"
                        can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"
                        something directly rather than having to discover it
                        or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the
                        solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited
                        by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him
                        say it at:

                        http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                        http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                        Coincidence?

                        I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                        certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                        believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                        writers for a time.

                        Etznab



                        Prometheus,
                        You illustrated:

                        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                        that man was "placed here by colonists

                        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                        Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                        are expected to "serve."


                        That was a good point, I thought. Because

                        legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                        of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                        in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                        people speculate about what they read, and /

                        or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                        (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                        organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                        when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                        actually happened I believe people have every

                        right to challenge such allegations.


                        Here are some examples. The early manu-

                        scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                        Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                        1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                        by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                        These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                        not because I absolutely know all the details -

                        but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                        /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                        Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                        Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                        manuscripts were reportedly written.



                        In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                        "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                        In one of your past posts (I don't have the #

                        or date) you wrote:



                        "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                        his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                        back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                        was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                        I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                        Johnson's book, too.



                        Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                        the year 2000:



                        ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                        did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                        Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                        With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                        ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                        Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                        didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                        Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                        writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                        published until 1970."



                        [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                        I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                        cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                        them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                        Singh.



                        Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                        Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                        Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                        wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                        by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.


                        Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                        since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                        scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                        terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                        reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                        And it might possibly have been in the possession

                        of Eckankar for a number of years.



                        According to Kirpal Singh?



                        "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                        The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                        ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                        He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                        tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                        My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                        dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                        MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                        THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                        BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                        THAT NAME!



                        Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                        manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,

                        if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                        There has been controversy over when the name of

                        Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                        I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                        illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is

                        the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                        manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                        given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                        it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                        If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                        it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                        came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                        *************************************************************



                        Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                        the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                        have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                        If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                        that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                        does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                        have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                        the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                        I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                        One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                        in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                        Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                        (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                        Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                        Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                        have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                        that path in 1963. So ...?



                        Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                        have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                        Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                        name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                        I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                        Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                        Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                        ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                        Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                        to have the truth.



                        I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                        Etznab
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        Prometheus, I ve often wondered about Gail & Patti - ever since I started researching & posting as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was it 2005-2007? I think
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                          Prometheus,

                          I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                          ever since I started researching & posting
                          as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                          it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                          around there.

                          It's a big question mark, to me, about
                          whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                          with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                          for so many years? However, I don't think
                          Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                          mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                          she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                          believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                          she was not any longer active. Instead of
                          going into the details about this, my recoll-
                          ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                          the story in her own time, in her own way.

                          About how many books Paul Twitchell
                          finished before 1966, I think I see your
                          point.

                          Etznab


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06 pm
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                          JUPITER!








                          Hello Etznab,

                          At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                          member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                          was his original source of "compiled" info

                          on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                          handed-down source since he tends to use

                          other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                          for his "EK wisdom."



                          As far as Marman goes...
                          he speculates...

                          a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                          Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                          inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                          and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                          when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                          GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                          had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                          kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                          be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                          by thinking she'd helped people who were

                          desperate to believe in something more than

                          what they had with their former orthodox

                          religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                          other cult-like religions can say and do the

                          same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                          than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                          new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                          jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                          even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                          post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                          Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                          clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                          whom she helped to delude.



                          BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                          that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                          manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                          Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                          written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                          a book of poetry?
                          0D


                          Prometheus



                          Etznab wrote:

                          About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                          Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                          experience? or something he heard / read?



                          For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                          I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                          from Jupiter.



                          ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                          L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                          of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                          can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                          something directly rather than having to discover it

                          or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                          solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                          by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                          say it at:



                          http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                          http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                          Coincidence?



                          I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                          certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                          believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                          writers for a time.



                          Etznab



                          Prometheus,

                          You illustrated:



                          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                          that man was "placed here by colonists



                          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little




                          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists



                          are expected to "serve."



                          That was a good point, I thought. Because



                          legends, myths, fables and folktales are part



                          of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not



                          in the beginning, they seep in over time when



                          people speculate about what they read, and /



                          or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo



                          (man-made) religion / history are a part of the



                          organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However



                          when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &



                          actually happened I believe people have every



                          right to challenge such allegations.



                          Here are some examples. The early manu-



                          scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The



                          Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later



                          1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books



                          by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                          These are examples about truth vs. fiction -



                          not because I absolutely know all the details -



                          but because the subject is "suspicious" and



                          /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                          Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal



                          Singh round about the mid 50s when the two



                          manuscripts were reportedly written.

                          0A

                          In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his



                          "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                          In one of your past posts (I don't have the #



                          or date) you wrote:



                          "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on



                          his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came



                          back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second



                          was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                          I think that information was mentioned in Ford



                          Johnson's book, too.



                          Consider what Doug Marman gave back around



                          the year 2000:



                          ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but



                          did nothing with the book until he offered it to



                          Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues



                          With The Master around 1956, from the refer-



                          ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.



                          Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but



                          didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion



                          Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's



                          writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't



                          published until 1970."



                          [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                          I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-



                          cause Paul includes him in the two book
                          s. One of



                          them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal



                          Singh.



                          Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal



                          Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in



                          Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson



                          wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"



                          by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.



                          Although I don't absolutely know all the details,



                          since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-



                          scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar



                          terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh



                          reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.



                          And it might possibly have been in the possession



                          of Eckankar for a number of years.



                          According to Kirpal Singh?



                          "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,



                          The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-



                          ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.



                          He changed that book before printing; where he men-



                          tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                          My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh



                          dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.



                          MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED



                          THE TIGER'S FAN
                          G MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS



                          BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY



                          THAT NAME!



                          Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early



                          manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,



                          if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                          There has been controversy over when the name of



                          Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date



                          I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an



                          illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is



                          the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang



                          manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs



                          given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was



                          it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?



                          If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar



                          it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who



                          came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                          *************************************************************



                          Those were examples because I have mostly seen



                          the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't



                          have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                          If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,



                          that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs



                          does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I wo
                          uld



                          have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to



                          the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                          I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.



                          One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And



                          in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                          Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.



                          (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The



                          Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in



                          Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may



                          have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into



                          that path in 1963. So ...?



                          Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to



                          have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's



                          Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the



                          name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                          I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.



                          Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-



                          Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-



                          ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                          Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right



                          to have the truth.



                          I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                          Etznab








                          0D
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Etznab, I figured Patti had left EKankar since she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar Board the day after Klemp & his new Board went after Darwin. Joan
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 12, 2009
                            Hi Etznab,
                            I figured Patti had left EKankar since
                            she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar
                            Board the day after Klemp & his new Board
                            went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take
                            Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,
                            the same day as the resignation. Apparently
                            Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand
                            in the wings, and await, until opportunity
                            comes a knocking.

                            Prometheus


                            Prometheus,

                            I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                            ever since I started researching & posting
                            as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                            it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                            around there.

                            It's a big question mark, to me, about
                            whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                            with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                            for so many years? However, I don't think
                            Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                            mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                            she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                            believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                            she was not any longer active. Instead of
                            going into the details about this, my recoll-
                            ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                            the story in her own time, in her own way.

                            About how many books Paul Twitchell
                            finished before 1966, I think I see your
                            point.

                            Etznab


                            prometheus wrote:

                            Hello Etznab,

                            At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                            member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                            was his original source of "compiled" info

                            on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                            handed-down source since he tends to use

                            other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                            for his "EK wisdom."


                            As far as Marman goes... he speculates...

                            a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                            Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                            inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                            and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                            when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                            GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                            had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                            kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                            be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                            by thinking she'd helped people who were

                            desperate to believe in something more than

                            what they had with their former orthodox

                            religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                            other cult-like religions can say and do the

                            same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                            than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                            new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                            jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                            even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                            post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                            Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                            clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                            whom she helped to delude.



                            BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                            that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                            manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                            Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                            written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                            a book of poetry?



                            Prometheus



                            Etznab wrote:

                            About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                            Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                            experience? or something he heard / read?



                            For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                            I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                            from Jupiter.



                            ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                            L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                            of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                            can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                            something directly rather than having to discover it

                            or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                            solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                            by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                            say it at:



                            http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                            http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                            Coincidence?



                            I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                            certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                            believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                            writers for a time.



                            Etznab
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Prometheus, I wasn t aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I had the impression she was removed. Here is why: Another interesting development in the August 7
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                              Prometheus,

                              I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                              had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                              "Another interesting development in the August
                              7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                              of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                              Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                              of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                              resolution, summarily removed from this position
                              and told that

                              ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                              both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                              ediately. [....]

                              "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                              ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                              immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                              current term of Secretary."

                              [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                              A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234] 

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56 pm
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                              JUPITER!








                              Hi Etznab,

                              I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                              she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                              Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                              went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                              Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                              the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                              Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                              in the win
                              gs, and await, until opportunity

                              comes a knocking.



                              Prometheus



                              Prometheus,



                              I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                              ever since I started researching & posting

                              as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                              it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                              around there.



                              It's a big question mark, to me, about

                              whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                              with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                              for so many years? However, I don't think

                              Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                              mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                              she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                              believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                              she was not any longer active. Instead of

                              going into the details about this, my recoll-

                              ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                              the story in her own time, in her own way.



                              About how many books Paul Twitchell

                              finished before 1966, I think I see your

                              point.



                              Etznab



                              prometheus wrote:



                              Hello Etznab,



                              At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                              member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                              was his original source of "compiled" info



                              on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                              handed-down source since he tends to use



                              other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                              for his "EK wisdom."

                              0D

                              As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                              a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                              Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                              inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                              and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                              when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                              GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                              had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                              kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                              be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                              by thinking she'd helped people who were



                              desperate to believe in something more than



                              what they had with their former orthodox



                              religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                              other cult-like religions can say and do the



                              same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                              than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                              new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                              jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                              even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                              post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                              Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                              clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                              whom she helped to delude.



                              BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                              =0
                              A
                              that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                              manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                              Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                              written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                              a book of poetry?



                              Prometheus



                              Etznab wrote:



                              About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul



                              Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual



                              experience? or something he heard / read?



                              For some reason I thought about Scientology.



                              I then searched for keywords Scientology &



                              from Jupiter.



                              ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                              L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science



                              of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"



                              can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"



                              something directly rather than having to discover it



                              or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the



                              solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited



                              by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him



                              say it at:



                              http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                              http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                              Coincidence?



                              I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and



                              certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I



                              believe Twitchell and Hubbard were
                              both science fiction



                              writers for a time.



                              Etznab
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hi Etznab, If I could access the Truth-Seeker site I would show the minutes from the meeting where officers and trustees were appointed along with a long
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                                Hi Etznab,
                                If I could access the Truth-Seeker
                                site I would show the minutes from
                                the meeting where officers and trustees
                                were appointed along with a long discussion
                                of what to do about Darwin. Patti was
                                appointed as Secretary during this very
                                long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.
                                A recess was taken and the meeting was
                                to resume the very next day.

                                However, Patti resigned the next day after
                                having the night to think or dream about
                                what was being done to Darwin by Klemp
                                and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan
                                documented the details differently, after
                                Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"
                                when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-
                                up began early on. A "resolution" was simply
                                done to officially accept Patti's resignation.
                                Another motion and "vote" was made into
                                a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty
                                position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman
                                to ask Patti how it went down, according to
                                her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

                                Prometheus
                                p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather
                                than take his word for what she has to say.


                                etznab wrote:

                                Prometheus,

                                I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                                had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                                "Another interesting development in the August
                                7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                                of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                                Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                                of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                                resolution, summarily removed from this position
                                and told that

                                ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                                both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                                ediately. [....]

                                "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                                ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                                immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                                current term of Secretary."

                                [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                                A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â

                                Etznab

                                Prometheus wrote:


                                Hi Etznab,

                                I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                                she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                                Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                                went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                                Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                                the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                                Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                                in the wings, and await, until opportunity

                                comes a knocking.



                                Prometheus



                                Prometheus,



                                I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                                ever since I started researching & posting

                                as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                                it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                                around there.



                                It's a big question mark, to me, about

                                whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                                with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                                for so many years? However, I don't think

                                Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                                mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                                she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                                believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                                she was not any longer active. Instead of

                                going into the details about this, my recoll-

                                ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                                the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                About how many books Paul Twitchell

                                finished before 1966, I think I see your

                                point.



                                Etznab



                                prometheus wrote:



                                Hello Etznab,



                                At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                was his original source of "compiled" info



                                on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                handed-down source since he tends to use



                                other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                for his "EK wisdom."



                                As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                desperate to believe in something more than



                                what they had with their former orthodox



                                religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                                than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                whom she helped to delude.



                                BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                                =0
                                A
                                that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                a book of poetry?



                                Prometheus
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                Prometheus, Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this what I had read. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 16, 2009
                                  Prometheus,

                                  Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this
                                  what I had read.

                                  Etznab

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                                  Removed!








                                  Hi Etznab,

                                  If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                  site I would show the minutes from

                                  the meeting where officers and trustees

                                  were appointed along with a long discussion

                                  of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                  appointed as Secretary during this very

                                  long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                  A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                  to resume the very next day.



                                  However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                  having the night to think or dream about

                                  what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                  and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                  documented the details differently, after

                                  Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                  when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                  up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                  done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                                  Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                  a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                  position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                  to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                  her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                  =0
                                  APrometheus

                                  p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                  than take his word for what she has to say.



                                  etznab wrote:



                                  Prometheus,



                                  I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                                  had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                                  "Another interesting development in the August

                                  7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                                  of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                                  Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                                  of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                                  resolution, summarily removed from this position

                                  and told that



                                  ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                                  both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                                  ediately. [....]



                                  "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                                  ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                                  immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                                  current term of Secretary."



                                  [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                                  A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                                  Etznab



                                  Prometheus wrote:



                                  Hi Etznab,



                                  I figured Patti had left EKankar since



                                  she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                                  Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                                  went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                                  Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                                  the same day as th
                                  e resignation. Apparently



                                  Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                                  in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                                  comes a knocking.



                                  Prometheus



                                  Prometheus,



                                  I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                                  ever since I started researching & posting



                                  as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                                  it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                                  around there.



                                  It's a big question mark, to me, about



                                  whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                                  with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                                  for so many years? However, I don't think



                                  Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                                  mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                                  she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                                  believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                                  she was not any longer active. Instead of



                                  going into the details about this, my recoll-



                                  ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                                  the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                  About how many books Paul Twitchell



                                  finished before 1966, I think I see your



                                  point.



                                  Etznab



                                  prometheus wrote:



                                  Hello Etznab,



                                  At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                  member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                                  0A


                                  was his original source of "compiled" info



                                  on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                  handed-down source since he tends to use



                                  other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                  for his "EK wisdom."



                                  As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                  a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                  Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                  inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                  and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                  when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                  GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                  had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                  kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                  be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                  by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                  desperate to believe in something more than



                                  what they had with their former orthodox



                                  religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                  other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                  same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                                  than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                  new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                  jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                  even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                  post so
                                  me tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                  Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                  clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                  whom she helped to delude.



                                  BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                                  =0

                                  A

                                  that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                  manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                  Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                  written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                  a book of poetry?



                                  Prometheus
                                • etznab@aol.com
                                  Something else for this thread. From The Truth-Seeker site. It doesn t have to do with the August 7th, 1983 meeting. Not unless that was the time when Patti
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 27, 2009
                                    Something else for this thread. From The
                                    Truth-Seeker site.

                                    It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                    1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                    time when Patti became not active. My
                                    guess was it refers to some time later.

                                    [....]

                                    A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                    an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                    Freeman

                                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                    I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                    Doug's response:

                                    "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                    fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                    not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                    rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                    http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                    I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                    a response, but I assume it was February
                                    2004. The 16th?

                                    Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                    Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                    until days later, but I think the link where he
                                    did respond is currently not working.

                                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                    Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                    guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                    the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                    Forum link.

                                    There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                    on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                    the present time.

                                    At any rate, according to D
                                    oug (apparently)
                                    Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                    at least.

                                    I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                    or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                    terminated or resigned from her position of
                                    Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                    it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                    that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                    future wife.

                                    Etznab





                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                                    Removed!








                                    Hi Etznab,

                                    If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                    site I would show the minutes from

                                    the meeting where officers and trustees

                                    were appointed along with a long discussion

                                    of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                    appointed as Secretary during this very

                                    long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                    A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                    to resume the very next day.



                                    However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                    having the night to think or dream about

                                    what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                    and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                    documented the details differently, after

                                    Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                    when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                    up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                    done to officiall
                                    y accept Patti's resignation.

                                    Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                    a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                    position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                    to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                    her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                    Prometheus

                                    p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                    than take his word for what she has to say.



                                    etznab wrote:



                                    Prometheus,



                                    I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                                    had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                                    "Another interesting development in the August

                                    7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                                    of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                                    Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                                    of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                                    resolution, summarily removed from this position

                                    and told that



                                    ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                                    both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                                    ediately. [....]



                                    "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                                    ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                                    immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                                    current term of Secretary."



                                    [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                                    A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                                    Etznab



                                    Prometheus wrote:



                                    Hi Etznab,



                                    I
                                    figured Patti had left EKankar since



                                    she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                                    Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                                    went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                                    Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                                    the same day as the resignation. Apparently



                                    Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                                    in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                                    comes a knocking.



                                    Prometheus



                                    Prometheus,



                                    I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                                    ever since I started researching & posting



                                    as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                                    it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                                    around there.



                                    It's a big question mark, to me, about



                                    whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                                    with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                                    for so many years? However, I don't think



                                    Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                                    mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                                    she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                                    believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                                    she was not any longer active. Instead of



                                    going into the details about this, my recoll-



                                    ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                                    the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                    About how=2
                                    0many books Paul Twitchell



                                    finished before 1966, I think I see your



                                    point.



                                    Etznab



                                    prometheus wrote:



                                    Hello Etznab,



                                    At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                    member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                    was his original source of "compiled" info



                                    on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                    handed-down source since he tends to use



                                    other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                    for his "EK wisdom."



                                    As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                    a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                    Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                    inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                    and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                    when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                    GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                    had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                    kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                    be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                    by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                    desperate to believe in something more than



                                    what they had with their former orthodox



                                    religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                    other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                    same. Therefore, Gai
                                    l is more the KAL agent



                                    than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                    new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                    jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                    even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                    post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                    Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                    clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                    whom she helped to delude.



                                    BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                                    =0

                                    A

                                    that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                    manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                    Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                    written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                    a book of poetry?



                                    Prometheus
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of figured that Patti wasn t active in ECKankar since she was talking so highly about Ram Dass recently. And, since she
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 2, 2009
                                      Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of
                                      figured that Patti wasn't active in ECKankar
                                      since she was talking so highly about Ram
                                      Dass recently. And, since she hasn't kept
                                      her EK Membership current, this means
                                      that her consciousness is now around
                                      that of a current 2nd Initiate! Wow! From
                                      8th to 2nd just because of a few bucks
                                      ($$$)! Actually, would a real spiritual
                                      "path" charge money to maintain one's
                                      (Soul's) inner plane level of consciousness?
                                      Well, yes! Because all of this (religions, etc.)
                                      is of the physical and Not the spiritual.
                                      That's why they sell books and other
                                      materials and require "requested" donations!
                                      The only "free lunch" (freedom) comes
                                      when Soul eliminates the middleman!

                                      Prometheus


                                      Etznab wrote:
                                      Something else for this thread. From The
                                      Truth-Seeker site.

                                      It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                      1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                      time when Patti became not active. My
                                      guess was it refers to some time later.

                                      [....]

                                      A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                      an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                      Freeman

                                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                      I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                      Doug's response:

                                      "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                      fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                      not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                      rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                      http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                      I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                      a response, but I assume it was February
                                      2004. The 16th?

                                      Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                      Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                      until days later, but I think the link where he
                                      did respond is currently not working.

                                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                      Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                      guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                      the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                      Forum link.

                                      There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                      on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                      the present time.

                                      At any rate, according to Doug (apparently)
                                      Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                      at least.

                                      I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                      or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                      terminated or resigned from her position of
                                      Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                      it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                      that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                      future wife.

                                      Etznab



                                      Hi Etznab,

                                      If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                      site I would show the minutes from

                                      the meeting where officers and trustees

                                      were appointed along with a long discussion

                                      of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                      appointed as Secretary during this very

                                      long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                      A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                      to resume the very next day.



                                      However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                      having the night to think or dream about

                                      what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                      and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                      documented the details differently, after

                                      Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                      when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                      up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                      done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                                      Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                      a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                      position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                      to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                      her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                      Prometheus

                                      p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                      than take his word for what she has to say.
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.