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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone mistranslated it to begin with. [....] The destruction of the
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
      when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
      mistranslated it to begin with.

      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
      all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
      the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
      years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
      empire throughout the world. [....]"

      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
      Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
      1986, p. 97 ]

      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
      its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
      crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
      of years ago. [....]"

      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
      Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

      It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
      in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 4:03 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!



      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

      The world is never without him, for the line

      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

      from JUPITER."


      0A
      ME: WOW! JUPITER!



      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

      JUPITER!"



      Where are the other RACES from?



      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

      I don't think so!!!



      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

      from?



      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

      Far Away? That sounds like the makings for

      another Klemp story! Yawn!



      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



      Prometheus



      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

      of this info in order to give some clarity (excus
      e)

      for his contradictions of information? Or, does

      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

      and is more focused upon those Souls residing

      on the Inner Planes? LOL!



      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
    • prometheus_973
      Klemp is a scammer and his followers are gullible New Age wannabes! How can rational and intelligent people believe in this crap! Most ECKists came from
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
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        Klemp is a scammer and his followers
        are gullible New Age wannabes!

        How can rational and intelligent people
        believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
        from orthodox religions that taught
        similar fiction and myth. And, these
        Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
        New Age ones have complex dogmas
        and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
        of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
        Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

        All religions rely upon the current
        LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
        the imaginations of his believers!

        I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
        that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
        HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
        when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

        "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
        Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
        through the worlds, through the Planes
        and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
        of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
        At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
        of matter--some of the newly formed
        planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
        THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
        world of EARTH.

        Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
        formed the consciousness of man in
        the flesh temple of the human body,
        to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
        and take up the burdens of karma until
        at last, one day, each would be ready
        to return to the heavenly home." [end]

        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
        that man was "placed here by colonists
        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
        Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
        are expected to "serve."

        Here's an interesting definition from
        Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

        "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
        which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
        of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
        was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
        FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
        the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

        It's true that Twitchell was a professional
        liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
        stole the words and ideas of others without
        giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
        of spiritual experiences from chelas written
        in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
        use these as "inspiration" for his books that
        he receives 50% royalties on!

        Prometheus


        ************************************************
        ETZNAB WROTE:
        Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
        when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
        mistranslated it to begin with.

        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
        all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
        the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
        years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
        empire throughout the world. [....]"

        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
        Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
        1986, p. 97 ]

        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
        its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
        crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
        of years ago. [....]"

        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
        Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

        It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
        in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
        >
        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
        The world is never without him, for the line
        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
        from JUPITER."
        >
        ME: WOW! JUPITER!
        >
        When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
        in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
        the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
        >
        People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
        to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
        JUPITER!"
        >
        Where are the other RACES from?
        >
        Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
        I don't think so!!!
        >
        What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
        from?
        >
        Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
        Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
        another Klemp story! Yawn!
        >
        Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
        Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
        Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
        covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
        >
        This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
        question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
        >
        Prometheus
        >
        P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
        just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
        Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
        too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
        we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
        aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
        >
        Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
        the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
        of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
        for his contradictions of information? Or, does
        Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
        and is more focused upon those Souls residing
        on the Inner Planes? LOL!
        >
        I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
        sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
        Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
        it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
        by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
      • etznab@aol.com
        More space-people & Eckankar trivia. Eckankar was brought here from Venus by a little known race which is living in Agam Des, and whom we know as the Eshwar
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

          "Eckankar was brought here from Venus by a little
          known race which is living in Agam Des, and whom
          we know as the Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
          in italics], or simply as the God-eaters. These beings
          are members of the Ancient Brotherhood, or Order, of
          the Vairagi. They attained their name, the god-eaters,
          from the fact that they absorb cosmic energies instead
          of assimilating plants and other foods." [my brackets]

          Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers, Copyright 1971,
          2nd printing 1987, p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 2:31 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!



          Klemp is a scammer and his followers

          are gullible New Age wannabes!



          How can rational and intelligent people

          believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

          from orthodox religions that taught

          similar fiction and myth. And, these

          Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

          New Age ones have complex dogmas

          and glowing "spiritual" testimonials

          of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

          Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



          All religions rely upon the current

          LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

          the imaginations of his believers!



          I'm still wondering how Klemp can sa
          y

          that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

          HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

          when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



          "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

          Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

          through the worlds, through the Planes

          and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

          of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

          At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

          of matter--some of the newly formed

          planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

          THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

          world of EARTH.



          Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

          formed the consciousness of man in

          the flesh temple of the human body,

          to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

          and take up the burdens of karma until

          at last, one day, each would be ready

          to return to the heavenly home." [end]



          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

          that man was "placed here by colonists

          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

          are expected to "serve."



          Here's an interesting definition from

          Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



          "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

          which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

          of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

          was the FIRST20MAN and EDE, the

          FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

          the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."



          It's true that Twitchell was a professional

          liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

          stole the words and ideas of others without

          giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

          of spiritual experiences from chelas written

          in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

          use these as "inspiration" for his books that

          he receives 50% royalties on!



          Prometheus



          ************************************************

          ETZNAB WROTE:

          Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

          when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

          mistranslated it to begin with.



          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

          all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

          the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

          years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

          empire throughout the world. [....]"



          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,

          Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

          1986, p. 97 ]



          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

          its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

          crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

          of years ago. [....]"



          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book

          Two, Second Edition - 1
          988, p. 112]



          It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans

          in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!



          prometheus wrote:

          >

          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

          >

          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

          The world is never without him, for the line

          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

          from JUPITER."

          >

          ME: WOW! JUPITER!

          >

          When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

          in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

          the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

          >

          People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

          to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

          JUPITER!"

          >

          Where are the other RACES from?

          >

          Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

          I don't think so!!!

          >

          What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

          from?

          >

          Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

          Far Away? That sounds like the makings for

          another Klemp story! Yawn!

          >

          Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

          Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

          Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

          covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

          >

          This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

          question to the inner"=2
          0works in Eckankar!

          >

          Prometheus

          >

          P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

          just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

          Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

          too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

          we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

          aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

          >

          Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

          the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

          of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

          for his contradictions of information? Or, does

          Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

          and is more focused upon those Souls residing

          on the Inner Planes? LOL!

          >

          I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

          sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

          Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

          it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

          by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Etznab and All, Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit! Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS! Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Etznab and All,
            Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
            (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
            Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

            Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
            Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
            mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

            "CLARION. A planet where higher
            evolved Souls are living to help carry
            on the work of GOD throughout the
            universe."

            Etznab wrote:

            More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

            "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
            by a little known race which is living in
            Agam Des, and whom we know as the
            Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
            in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
            These beings are members of the Ancient
            Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
            They attained their name, the god-eaters,
            from the fact that they absorb cosmic
            energies instead of assimilating plants
            and other foods." [my brackets]

            Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
            Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
            p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

            ******************************************

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            Klemp is a scammer and his followers
            are gullible New Age wannabes!
            >
            How can rational and intelligent people
            believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
            from orthodox religions that taught
            similar fiction and myth. And, these
            Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
            New Age ones have complex dogmas
            and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
            of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
            Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
            >
            All religions rely upon the current
            LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
            the imaginations of his believers!
            >
            I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
            that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
            HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
            when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
            >
            "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
            Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
            through the worlds, through the Planes
            and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
            of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
            At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
            of matter--some of the newly formed
            planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
            THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
            world of EARTH.
            >
            Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
            formed the consciousness of man in
            the flesh temple of the human body,
            to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
            and take up the burdens of karma until
            at last, one day, each would be ready
            to return to the heavenly home." [end]
            >
            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
            that man was "placed here by colonists
            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
            Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
            are expected to "serve."
            >
            Here's an interesting definition from
            Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
            >
            "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
            which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
            of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
            was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
            FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
            the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
            >
            It's true that Twitchell was a professional
            liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
            stole the words and ideas of others without
            giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
            of spiritual experiences from chelas written
            in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
            use these as "inspiration" for his books that
            he receives 50% royalties on!
            >
            Prometheus
            >
            ************************************************
            ETZNAB WROTE:
            Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
            when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
            mistranslated it to begin with.
            >
            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
            all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
            the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
            years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
            empire throughout the world. [....]"
            >
            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
            Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
            1986, p. 97 ]
            >
            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
            its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
            crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
            of years ago. [....]"
            >
            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
            Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
            >
            It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
            in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

            prometheus wrote:
            > >
            Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
            "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
            > >
            "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
            The world is never without him, for the line
            of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
            ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
            from JUPITER."
            > >
            ME: WOW! JUPITER!
            > >
            When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
            in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
            the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
            > >
            People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
            to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
            JUPITER!"
            > >
            Where are the other RACES from?
            > >
            Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
            I don't think sooooo!!!
            > >
            What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
            from?
            > >
            Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
            Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
            another Klemp story! Yawn!
            > >
            Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
            Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
            Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
            covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
            > >
            This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
            question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
            > >
            Prometheus
            > >
            P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
            just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
            Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
            too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
            we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
            aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
            > >
            Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
            the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
            of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
            for his contradictions of information? Or, does
            Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
            and is more focused upon those Souls residing
            on the Inner Planes? LOL!
            > >
            I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
            sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
            Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
            it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
            by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Etznab and All, It s interesting that Twitchell says that the God-Eaters and the Order of the Vairagi, are a RACE and Twitch states that they are
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 6, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Etznab and All,
              It's interesting that Twitchell says that
              the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
              Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
              that they are from both Venus and Agam
              Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
              Agam Des is located on Earth!

              Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
              and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
              reside there as a GOD-EATER.

              BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
              Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
              SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
              or Eckankar copyright is he!

              "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:

              "At the European and African ECK Seminars
              we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
              ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
              'What is the HU?"

              Klemp now tells of a reported experience
              of a female ECKist attending.

              "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
              she shut her eyes and chanted with the
              audience, silently asking three times, 'What
              is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
              to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
              again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
              face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."

              The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
              Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
              gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
              Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
              Plane!

              Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
              "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
              How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
              if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
              Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
              subjective experience!

              Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
              where's the portrait of SAT NAM?

              Check out these sites-

              http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam

              Prometheus

              Thanks for the following info Etznab:

              "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
              by a little known RACE which is living in
              AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
              ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
              GOD-EATERS.

              These beings are members of the ANCIENT
              BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
              They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
              from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
              ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
              plants and other foods."

              Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
              Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
              p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
              > are gullible New Age wannabes!
              >
              > How can rational and intelligent people
              > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
              > from orthodox religions that taught
              > similar fiction and myth. And, these
              > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
              > New Age ones have complex dogmas
              > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
              > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
              > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
              >
              > All religions rely upon the current
              > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
              > the imaginations of his believers!
              >
              > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
              > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
              > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
              > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
              >
              > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
              > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
              > through the worlds, through the Planes
              > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
              > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
              > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
              > of matter--some of the newly formed
              > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
              > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
              > world of EARTH.
              >
              > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
              > formed the consciousness of man in
              > the flesh temple of the human body,
              > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
              > and take up the burdens of karma until
              > at last, one day, each would be ready
              > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
              >
              > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
              > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
              > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
              > that man was "placed here by colonists
              > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
              > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
              > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
              > are expected to "serve."
              >
              > Here's an interesting definition from
              > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
              >
              > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
              > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
              > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
              > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
              > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
              > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
              >
              > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
              > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
              > stole the words and ideas of others without
              > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
              > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
              > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
              > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
              > he receives 50% royalties on!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > ************************************************
              > ETZNAB WROTE:
              > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
              > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
              > mistranslated it to begin with.
              >
              > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
              > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
              > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
              > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
              > empire throughout the world. [....]"
              >
              > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
              > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
              > 1986, p. 97 ]
              >
              > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
              > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
              > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
              > of years ago. [....]"
              >
              > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
              > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
              >
              > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
              > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
              > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
              > >
              > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
              > The world is never without him, for the line
              > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
              > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
              > from JUPITER."
              > >
              > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
              > >
              > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
              > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
              > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
              > >
              > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
              > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
              > JUPITER!"
              > >
              > Where are the other RACES from?
              > >
              > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
              > I don't think so!!!
              > >
              > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
              > from?
              > >
              > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
              > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
              > another Klemp story! Yawn!
              > >
              > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
              > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
              > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
              > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
              > >
              > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
              > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
              > >
              > Prometheus
              > >
              > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
              > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
              > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
              > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
              > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
              > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
              > >
              > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
              > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
              > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
              > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
              > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
              > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
              > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
              > >
              > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
              > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
              > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
              > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
              > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
              >
            • prometheus_973
              GOTTA is mentioned on page 82 of the EK Lexicon and was among the 1st of the Vairagi Order... claims both Twit and Klemp. However, HERACLITUS is Not mentioned
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 8, 2008
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                GOTTA is mentioned on page 82
                of the EK Lexicon and was among
                the 1st of the Vairagi Order...
                claims both Twit and Klemp.

                However, HERACLITUS is Not
                mentioned as an ECK Master,
                although, the HERACLIANS are
                mentioned as a future ROOT
                race in Klemp's Lexicon!

                At least now I know where both
                Klemp and Twit found their info
                in order to twist their facts.

                "Heraclians. A future ROOT RACE
                to conquer and control the world;
                fair and just, they will rule around
                the year 6025 A.D., and the
                civilization will last from 500 to 1000
                years." [EK Lexicon, Copyright 1998,
                pg. 87]

                "HERACLIANS. The FIFTH RACE to
                conquer and control the world of the
                future; fair and just, they will rule
                around the year 6025 and the
                civilization will last from 500 to 1000
                years." [PT's Eckankar Dictionary,
                Sixth Printing 1986, pg. 60]

                Interesting that Klemp CHANGED
                Twitchell's info and refers to these
                people as a future "ROOT" race while
                PT says that this is the "FIFTH" race
                to conquer and control the world.
                Isn't the FIFTH RACE, according to
                ECK DOGMA, the ARYAN RACE!
                It seems that Klemp is cleaning up
                PT's crap again, or maybe HK mistakenly
                misinterpreted what Twit was really
                saying???

                BTW- Both Twit and Klemp give this
                same definition:

                "ARRIANS. A cruel race which will
                take over Earth about the year 3500
                A.D., later spreading to Mars and Venus."
                [EK Lexicon, pg.11]


                HK-"The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1985:

                "HERACLITUS, the ancient Greek philosopher,
                had a Mental Concept of the ECK that
                reduced It to the level of the Mind Power.
                BUT Heraclitus saw that Reality in the
                Universe is at the mercy of the LAW
                of CHANGE, since THINGS FLOW IN the
                Universe all the time...

                For us, the conflict of mind and Spirit boils
                down to a practical issue: Who takes care
                of things--God or me?

                Mostly, it is the initiate who must take
                care of himself.

                The Mahanta shows him HOW TO get
                insights from the ECK through intuition,
                Soul Travel, or dreams.

                A PERSON IN THE ECK LINE OF UNFOLDMENT
                IS SOON ABLE TO GET FREE OF THE HOPELESS
                HUMAN CONDITION AND RISE ABOVE IT INTO
                THE PURE STATES OF WISDOM, FREEDOM, AND
                IMMORTALITY." [end of quote]

                So, this ECK Unfoldment to the PURE STATES
                of Wisdom, Freedom and Immortality takes
                place SOON for the chela!

                That's BULLSHIT isn't it!

                The only "plus factor" in Eckankar is that
                there is always another Catch-22 and hoop
                to jump through! Fame and Service are key
                for promotion to a 7th and/or RESA position.

                How to become a Klemp minion: Pull in
                a lot of new members and money like Don
                and Bob and a 7th RESA can make it to
                the 8th. Marry the Klempster, become a
                Trustee, Pres. or V.P. of the ORG, or be on
                the Spiritual Council and one can get an 8th
                too! The thing is... narcissists just don't
                want to share the power! This is why
                Klemp doesn't promote more people
                into the 8th & 9th Circles and why he
                really "slowed down" the initiations. It's
                all just too obvious!

                Prometheus


                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Etznab and All,
                > It's interesting that Twitchell says that
                > the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
                > Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
                > that they are from both Venus and Agam
                > Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
                > Agam Des is located on Earth!
                >
                > Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
                > and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
                > reside there as a GOD-EATER.
                >
                > BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
                > Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
                > SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
                > or Eckankar copyright is he!
                >
                > "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:
                >
                > "At the European and African ECK Seminars
                > we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
                > ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
                > 'What is the HU?"
                >
                > Klemp now tells of a reported experience
                > of a female ECKist attending.
                >
                > "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
                > she shut her eyes and chanted with the
                > audience, silently asking three times, 'What
                > is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
                > to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
                > again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
                > face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."
                >
                > The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
                > Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
                > gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
                > Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
                > Plane!
                >
                > Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
                > "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
                > How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
                > if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
                > Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
                > subjective experience!
                >
                > Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
                > where's the portrait of SAT NAM?
                >
                > Check out these sites-
                >
                > http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Thanks for the following info Etznab:
                >
                > "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
                > by a little known RACE which is living in
                > AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
                > ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
                > GOD-EATERS.
                >
                > These beings are members of the ANCIENT
                > BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
                > They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
                > from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
                > ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
                > plants and other foods."
                >
                > Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                > Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                > p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                > > are gullible New Age wannabes!
                > >
                > > How can rational and intelligent people
                > > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                > > from orthodox religions that taught
                > > similar fiction and myth. And, these
                > > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                > > New Age ones have complex dogmas
                > > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                > > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                > > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                > >
                > > All religions rely upon the current
                > > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                > > the imaginations of his believers!
                > >
                > > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                > > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                > > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                > > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
                > >
                > > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                > > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                > > through the worlds, through the Planes
                > > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                > > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                > > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                > > of matter--some of the newly formed
                > > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                > > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                > > world of EARTH.
                > >
                > > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                > > formed the consciousness of man in
                > > the flesh temple of the human body,
                > > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                > > and take up the burdens of karma until
                > > at last, one day, each would be ready
                > > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
                > >
                > > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                > > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                > > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                > > that man was "placed here by colonists
                > > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                > > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                > > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                > > are expected to "serve."
                > >
                > > Here's an interesting definition from
                > > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                > >
                > > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                > > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                > > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                > > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                > > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                > > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                > >
                > > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                > > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                > > stole the words and ideas of others without
                > > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                > > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                > > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                > > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                > > he receives 50% royalties on!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > > ************************************************
                > > ETZNAB WROTE:
                > > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                > > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                > > mistranslated it to begin with.
                > >
                > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                > > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                > > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                > > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                > > empire throughout the world. [....]"
                > >
                > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
                > > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                > > 1986, p. 97 ]
                > >
                > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                > > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                > > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                > > of years ago. [....]"
                > >
                > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
                > > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                > >
                > > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
                > > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
                > >
                > > prometheus wrote:
                > > >
                > > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                > > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                > > >
                > > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                > > The world is never without him, for the line
                > > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                > > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                > > from JUPITER."
                > > >
                > > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                > > >
                > > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                > > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                > > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                > > >
                > > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                > > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                > > JUPITER!"
                > > >
                > > Where are the other RACES from?
                > > >
                > > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                > > I don't think so!!!
                > > >
                > > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                > > from?
                > > >
                > > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                > > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                > > another Klemp story! Yawn!
                > > >
                > > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                > > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                > > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                > > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                > > >
                > > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                > > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                > > >
                > > Prometheus
                > > >
                > > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                > > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                > > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                > > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                > > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                > > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                > > >
                > > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                > > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                > > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                > > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                > > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                > > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                > > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                > > >
                > > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                > > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                > > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                > > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                > > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                > >
                >
              • prometheus_973
                I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking to seekers?
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 12, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  I thought I'd bring this back for
                  another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
                  Ever to mention the Jupiter and
                  Venus connection with the EK
                  Masters when speaking to seekers?
                  Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
                  ever to mention the lifetime "service"
                  requirement to new seekers? No,
                  again! I wonder, why Not? Too
                  much Truth... they'd get spiritual
                  indigestion!!!

                  Prometheus


                  Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

                  Hi Etznab and All,
                  Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
                  (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
                  Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

                  Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
                  Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
                  mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

                  "CLARION. A planet where higher
                  evolved Souls are living to help carry
                  on the work of GOD throughout the
                  universe."

                  Etznab wrote:

                  More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

                  "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
                  by a little known race which is living in
                  Agam Des, and whom we know as the
                  Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
                  in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
                  These beings are members of the Ancient
                  Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
                  They attained their name, the god-eaters,
                  from the fact that they absorb cosmic
                  energies instead of assimilating plants
                  and other foods." [my brackets]

                  Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                  Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                  p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

                  ******************************************

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                  are gullible New Age wannabes!
                  >
                  How can rational and intelligent people
                  believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                  from orthodox religions that taught
                  similar fiction and myth. And, these
                  Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                  New Age ones have complex dogmas
                  and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                  of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                  Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                  >
                  All religions rely upon the current
                  LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                  the imaginations of his believers!
                  >
                  I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                  that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                  HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                  when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
                  >
                  "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                  Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                  through the worlds, through the Planes
                  and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                  of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                  At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                  of matter--some of the newly formed
                  planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                  THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                  world of EARTH.
                  >
                  Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                  formed the consciousness of man in
                  the flesh temple of the human body,
                  to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                  and take up the burdens of karma until
                  at last, one day, each would be ready
                  to return to the heavenly home." [end]
                  >
                  I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                  5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                  1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                  that man was "placed here by colonists
                  from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                  secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                  Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                  are expected to "serve."
                  >
                  Here's an interesting definition from
                  Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                  >
                  "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                  which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                  of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                  was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                  FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                  the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                  >
                  It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                  liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                  stole the words and ideas of others without
                  giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                  of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                  in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                  use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                  he receives 50% royalties on!
                  >
                  Prometheus
                  >
                  ************************************************
                  ETZNAB WROTE:
                  Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                  when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                  mistranslated it to begin with.
                  >
                  "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                  all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                  the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                  years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                  empire throughout the world. [....]"
                  >
                  [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                  Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                  1986, p. 97 ]
                  >
                  "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                  its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                  crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                  of years ago. [....]"
                  >
                  [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                  Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                  >
                  It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
                  in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

                  prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                  "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                  > >
                  "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                  The world is never without him, for the line
                  of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                  ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                  from JUPITER."
                  > >
                  ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                  > >
                  When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                  in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                  the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                  > >
                  People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                  to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                  JUPITER!"
                  > >
                  Where are the other RACES from?
                  > >
                  Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                  I don't think sooooo!!!
                  > >
                  What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                  from?
                  > >
                  Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                  Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                  another Klemp story! Yawn!
                  > >
                  Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                  Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                  Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                  covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                  > >
                  This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                  question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                  > >
                  Prometheus
                  > >
                  P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                  just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                  Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                  too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                  we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                  aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                  > >
                  Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                  the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                  of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                  for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                  Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                  and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                  on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                  > >
                  I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                  sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                  Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                  it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                  by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello All, I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 6, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello All,
                    I thought I'd bring this back for
                    another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
                    Ever to mention the Jupiter and
                    Venus connection with the EK
                    Masters when speaking to seekers?
                    Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
                    ever to mention the lifetime "service"
                    requirement to new seekers? No,
                    again! I wonder, why Not? Too
                    much Truth... they'd get spiritual
                    indigestion!!!

                    - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -

                    Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                    "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING
                    1984 writes:

                    "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
                    The world is never without him, for the line
                    of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                    ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                    from JUPITER."

                    Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
                    (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
                    Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

                    Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
                    Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
                    mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

                    "CLARION. A planet where higher
                    evolved Souls are living to help carry
                    on the work of GOD throughout the
                    universe."

                    Etznab wrote:

                    More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

                    "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
                    by a little known race which is living in
                    Agam Des, and whom we know as the
                    Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
                    in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
                    These beings are members of the Ancient
                    Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
                    They attained their name, the god-eaters,
                    from the fact that they absorb cosmic
                    energies instead of assimilating plants
                    and other foods." [my brackets]

                    Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                    Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                    p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

                    ******************************************

                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                    are gullible New Age wannabes!
                    >
                    How can rational and intelligent people
                    believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                    from orthodox religions that taught
                    similar fiction and myth. And, these
                    Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                    New Age ones have complex dogmas
                    and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                    of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                    Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                    >
                    All religions rely upon the current
                    LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                    the imaginations of his believers!
                    >
                    I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                    that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                    HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                    when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

                    "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                    Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                    through the worlds, through the Planes
                    and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                    of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                    At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                    of matter--some of the newly formed
                    planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                    THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                    world of EARTH.

                    Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                    formed the consciousness of man in
                    the flesh temple of the human body,
                    to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                    and take up the burdens of karma until
                    at last, one day, each would be ready
                    to return to the heavenly home." [end]

                    I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                    5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                    1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                    that man was "placed here by colonists
                    from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                    secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                    Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                    are expected to "serve."
                    >
                    Here's an interesting definition from
                    Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                    >
                    "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                    which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                    of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                    was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                    FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                    the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                    >
                    It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                    liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                    stole the words and ideas of others without
                    giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                    of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                    in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                    use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                    he receives 50% royalties on!
                    >
                    Prometheus
                    >
                    ************************************************
                    ETZNAB WROTE:
                    Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                    when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                    mistranslated it to begin with.
                    >
                    "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                    all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                    the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                    years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                    empire throughout the world. [....]"
                    >
                    [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                    Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                    1986, p. 97 ]
                    >
                    "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                    its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                    crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                    of years ago. [....]"
                    >
                    [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                    Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                    >
                    It looks like someone got rid of that reference
                    to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took
                    until 1988!

                    prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                    "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                    > >
                    "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                    The world is never without him, for the line
                    of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                    ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                    from JUPITER."
                    > >
                    ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                    > >
                    When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                    in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                    the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                    > >
                    People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                    to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                    JUPITER!"
                    > >
                    Where are the other RACES from?
                    > >
                    Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                    I don't think sooooo!!!
                    > >
                    What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                    from?
                    > >
                    Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                    Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                    another Klemp story! Yawn!
                    > >
                    Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                    Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                    Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                    covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                    > >
                    This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                    question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                    > >
                    Prometheus
                    > >
                    P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                    just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                    Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                    too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                    we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                    aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                    > >
                    Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                    the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                    of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                    for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                    Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                    and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                    on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                    > >
                    I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                    sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                    Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                    it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                    by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Prometheus, You illustrated: I don t see how Klemp got it that the 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially, that man was
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Prometheus,

                      You illustrated:

                      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                      that man was "placed here by colonists
                      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                      Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                      are expected to "serve."

                      That was a good point, I thought. Because
                      legends, myths, fables and folktales are part
                      of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not
                      in the beginning, they seep in over time when
                      people speculate about what they read, and /
                      or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo
                      (man-made) religion / history are a part of the
                      organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However
                      when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &
                      actually happened I believe people have every
                      right to challenge such allegations.

                      Here are some examples. The early manu-
                      scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The
                      Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later
                      1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books
                      by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.

                      These are examples about truth vs. fiction -
                      not because I absolutely know all the details -
                      but because the subject is "suspicious" and
                      /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.

                      Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal
                      Singh round about the mid 50s when the two
                      manuscripts were reportedly written.

                      In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his
                      0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.

                      In one of your past posts (I don't have the #
                      or date) you wrote:

                      "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on
                      his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came
                      back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second
                      was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."

                      I think that information was mentioned in Ford
                      Johnson's book, too.

                      Consider what Doug Marman gave back around
                      the year 2000:

                      ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but
                      did nothing with the book until he offered it to
                      Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues
                      With The Master around 1956, from the refer-
                      ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.
                      Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but
                      didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion
                      Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's
                      writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't
                      published until 1970."

                      [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]

                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

                      I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-
                      cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of
                      them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal
                      Singh.

                      Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal
                      Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in
                      Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson
                      wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"
                      by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.

                      =0
                      A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,
                      since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-
                      scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar
                      terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh
                      reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.
                      And it might possibly have been in the possession
                      of Eckankar for a number of years.

                      According to Kirpal Singh?

                      "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,
                      The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-
                      ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.
                      He changed that book before printing; where he men-
                      tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."

                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm

                      My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh
                      dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.
                      MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED
                      THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS
                      BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY
                      THAT NAME!

                      Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early
                      manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it
                      has the manuscript in its possession.

                      There has been controversy over when the name of
                      Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date
                      I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an
                      illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is
                      the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang
                      manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs
                      given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was
                      it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?
                      If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar
                      it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who
                      came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?

                      *************************************************************

                      Those were examples because I have mostly seen
                      the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't
                      have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.

                      If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,
                      that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs
                      does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would
                      have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to
                      the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.

                      I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.
                      One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And
                      in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.

                      Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.
                      (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The
                      Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in
                      Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may
                      have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into
                      that path in 1963. So ...?

                      Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to
                      have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's
                      Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the
                      name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

                      I have asked ab
                      out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.
                      Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-
                      Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-
                      ists. Even long-time members from the early days.

                      Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right
                      to have the truth.

                      I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.

                      Etznab


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!








                      Hello All,

                      I thought I'd bring this back for

                      another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas

                      Ever to mention the Jupiter and

                      Venus connection with the EK

                      Masters when speaking to seekers?

                      Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas

                      ever to mention the lifetime "service"

                      requirement to new seekers? No,

                      again! I wonder, why Not? Too

                      much Truth... they'd get spiritual

                      indigestion!!!



                      - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -



                      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

                      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING

                      1984 writes:



                      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,

                      The world is never without him, for the line

                      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

                      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

                      from JUPITER."



                      Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods

                      (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D

                      Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                      Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from

                      Clarion! Klemp even has this planet

                      mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                      "CLARION. A planet where higher

                      evolved Souls are living to help carry

                      on the work of GOD throughout the

                      universe."



                      Etznab wrote:



                      More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                      "Eckankar was brought here from Venus

                      by a little known race which is living in

                      Agam Des, and whom we know as the

                      Eshwar Khanewale [last two words

                      in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.

                      These beings are members of the Ancient

                      Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.

                      They attained their name, the god-eaters,

                      from the fact that they absorb cosmic

                      energies instead of assimilating plants

                      and other foods." [my brackets]



                      Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,

                      Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,

                      p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                      ******************************************



                      prometheus wrote:

                      >

                      Klemp is a scammer and his followers

                      are gullible New Age wannabes!

                      >

                      How can rational and intelligent people

                      believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

                      from orthodox religions that taught

                      similar fiction and myth. And, these

                      Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

                      New Age ones have complex dogmas

                      and glowing "spiritual" test
                      imonials

                      of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

                      Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

                      >

                      All religions rely upon the current

                      LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

                      the imaginations of his believers!

                      >

                      I'm still wondering how Klemp can say

                      that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

                      HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

                      when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                      "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

                      Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

                      through the worlds, through the Planes

                      and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

                      of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

                      At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

                      of matter--some of the newly formed

                      planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

                      THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

                      world of EARTH.



                      Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

                      formed the consciousness of man in

                      the flesh temple of the human body,

                      to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

                      and take up the burdens of karma until

                      at last, one day, each would be ready

                      to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                      that man was "placed here by colonists

                      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                      Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists

                      are expected to "serve."

                      >

                      Here's an interesting definition from

                      Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

                      >

                      "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

                      which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

                      of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

                      was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the

                      FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

                      the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

                      >

                      It's true that Twitchell was a professional

                      liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

                      stole the words and ideas of others without

                      giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

                      of spiritual experiences from chelas written

                      in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

                      use these as "inspiration" for his books that

                      he receives 50% royalties on!

                      >

                      Prometheus

                      >

                      ************************************************

                      ETZNAB WROTE:

                      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

                      when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

                      mistranslated it to begin with.

                      >

                      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

                      all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

                      the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

                      years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

                      empire throughout the world. [....]"

                      >

                      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

                      Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

                      1986, p. 97 ]

                      >

                      0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

                      its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

                      crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

                      of years ago. [....]"

                      >

                      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

                      Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

                      >

                      It looks like someone got rid of that reference

                      to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took

                      until 1988!



                      prometheus wrote:

                      > >

                      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

                      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

                      > >

                      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

                      The world is never without him, for the line

                      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

                      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

                      from JUPITER."

                      > >

                      ME: WOW! JUPITER!

                      > >

                      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

                      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

                      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

                      > >

                      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

                      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

                      JUPITER!"

                      > >

                      Where are the other RACES from?

                      > >

                      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

                      I don't think sooooo!!!

                      > >

                      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

                      from?

                      > >

                      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

                      Far Away? That sounds like t
                      he makings for

                      another Klemp story! Yawn!

                      > >

                      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

                      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

                      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

                      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

                      > >

                      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

                      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!

                      > >

                      Prometheus

                      > >

                      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

                      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

                      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

                      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

                      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

                      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

                      > >

                      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

                      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

                      of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

                      for his contradictions of information? Or, does

                      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

                      and is more focused upon those Souls residing

                      on the Inner Planes? LOL!

                      > >

                      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

                      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

                      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

                      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

                      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or something he heard / read? For some reason I thought
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell
                        got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or
                        something he heard / read?

                        For some reason I thought about Scientology. I then
                        searched for keywords Scientology & from Jupiter.

                        ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                        L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                        of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing" can
                        raise your abilities to the point where you "know" something
                        directly rather than having to discover it or learn it. He spoke
                        authoritatively about life in the solar system. He claimed that
                        Jupiter was inhabited by people who looked like Eskimos.
                        You can hear him say it at:

                        http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                        http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                        Coincidence?

                        I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                        certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                        believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                        writers for a time.

                        Etznab





                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: etznab@...
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:04 pm
                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From
                        JUPITER!








                        Prometheus,



                        You illustrated:



                        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                        that man was "placed here by colonists

                        from JUPITER." This is20another dirty little

                        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                        Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                        are expected to "serve."



                        That was a good point, I thought. Because

                        legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                        of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                        in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                        people speculate about what they read, and /

                        or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                        (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                        organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                        when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                        actually happened I believe people have every

                        right to challenge such allegations.



                        Here are some examples. The early manu-

                        scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                        Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                        1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                        by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                        These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                        not because I absolutely know all the details -

                        but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                        /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                        Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                        Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                        manuscripts were reportedly written.



                        In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                        0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                        In one of your past posts (I don't have the #=0
                        D

                        or date) you wrote:



                        "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                        his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                        back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                        was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                        I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                        Johnson's book, too.



                        Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                        the year 2000:



                        ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                        did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                        Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                        With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                        ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                        Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                        didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                        Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                        writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                        published until 1970."



                        [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                        I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                        cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                        them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                        Singh.



                        Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                        Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                        Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                        wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                        by Rebazar T
                        arzs to Paul Twitchell.



                        =0

                        A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                        since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                        scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                        terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                        reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                        And it might possibly have been in the possession

                        of Eckankar for a number of years.



                        According to Kirpal Singh?



                        "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                        The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                        ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                        He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                        tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                        My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                        dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                        MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                        THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                        BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                        THAT NAME!



                        Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                        manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it

                        has the manuscript in its possession.



                        There has been controversy over when the name of

                        Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                        I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                        illustrated Rebazar Tarzs h
                        istory prior to that, where is

                        the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                        manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                        given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                        it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                        If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                        it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                        came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                        *************************************************************



                        Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                        the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                        have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                        If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                        that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                        does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                        have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                        the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                        I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                        One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                        in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                        Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                        (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                        Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                        Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                        have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                        that path in 1963. So ...?




                        Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                        have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                        Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                        name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                        I have asked ab

                        out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                        Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                        Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                        ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                        Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                        to have the truth.



                        I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                        Etznab



                        -----Original Message-----

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                        Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm

                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!



                        Hello All,



                        I thought I'd bring this back for



                        another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas



                        Ever to mention the Jupiter and



                        Venus connection with the EK



                        Masters when speaking to seekers?



                        Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas



                        ever to mention the lifetime "service"



                        requirement to new seekers? No,



                        again! I wonder, why Not? Too



                        much Truth... they'd get spiritual



                        indigestion!!!



                        - Aryans Are Fr
                        om JUPITER! -



                        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING



                        1984 writes:



                        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,



                        The world is never without him, for the line



                        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                        from JUPITER."



                        Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods



                        (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D



                        Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                        Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from



                        Clarion! Klemp even has this planet



                        mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                        "CLARION. A planet where higher



                        evolved Souls are living to help carry



                        on the work of GOD throughout the



                        universe."



                        Etznab wrote:



                        More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                        "Eckankar was brought here from Venus



                        by a little known race which is living in



                        Agam Des, and whom we know as the



                        Eshwar Khanewale [last two words



                        in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.



                        These beings are members of the Ancient



                        Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.



                        They attained their name, the god-eaters,



                        from the fact that they absorb cosmic



                        energies instead of assimilating plants



                        and other20foods." [my brackets]



                        Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,



                        Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,



                        p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                        ******************************************



                        prometheus wrote:



                        >



                        Klemp is a scammer and his followers



                        are gullible New Age wannabes!



                        >



                        How can rational and intelligent people



                        believe in this crap! Most ECKists came



                        from orthodox religions that taught



                        similar fiction and myth. And, these



                        Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the



                        New Age ones have complex dogmas



                        and glowing "spiritual" test

                        imonials



                        of miracles, visitations by angels and/or



                        Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



                        >



                        All religions rely upon the current



                        LEADER's ability to control and manipulate



                        the imaginations of his believers!



                        >



                        I'm still wondering how Klemp can say



                        that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED



                        HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"



                        when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                        "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL



                        Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD



                        through the worlds, through the Planes



                        and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds



                        =0
                        Aof the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.



                        At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds



                        of matter--some of the newly formed



                        planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and



                        THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little



                        world of EARTH.



                        Many CAME to the EARTH planet and



                        formed the consciousness of man in



                        the flesh temple of the human body,



                        to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,



                        and take up the burdens of karma until



                        at last, one day, each would be ready



                        to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                        that man was "placed here by colonists



                        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little



                        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                        Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists



                        are expected to "serve."



                        >



                        Here's an interesting definition from



                        Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



                        >



                        "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE



                        which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN



                        of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM



                        was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the



                        FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of



                        the RACES OF
                        MAN upon EARTH."



                        >



                        It's true that Twitchell was a professional



                        liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit



                        stole the words and ideas of others without



                        giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories



                        of spiritual experiences from chelas written



                        in Initiate Reports and letters in order to



                        use these as "inspiration" for his books that



                        he receives 50% royalties on!



                        >



                        Prometheus



                        >



                        ************************************************



                        ETZNAB WROTE:



                        Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up



                        when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone



                        mistranslated it to begin with.



                        >



                        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and



                        all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under



                        the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of



                        years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the



                        empire throughout the world. [....]"



                        >



                        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                        Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,



                        1986, p. 97 ]



                        >



                        0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all



                        its colonial empire came about by gas po
                        ckets under the



                        crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands



                        of years ago. [....]"



                        >



                        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                        Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]



                        >



                        It looks like someone got rid of that reference



                        to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took



                        until 1988!



                        prometheus wrote:



                        > >



                        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



                        > >



                        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.



                        The world is never without him, for the line



                        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                        from JUPITER."



                        > >



                        ME: WOW! JUPITER!



                        > >



                        When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"



                        in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is



                        the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



                        > >



                        People in this Current ROOT RACE, according



                        to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from



                        JUPITER!"



                        > >



                        Where are the other RACES from?



                        > >



                        Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?



                        I don't think sooooo!!!
                        =0
                        A


                        > >



                        What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES



                        from?



                        > >



                        Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far



                        Far Away? That sounds like t

                        he makings for



                        another Klemp story! Yawn!



                        > >



                        Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that



                        Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi



                        Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was



                        covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



                        > >



                        This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your



                        question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



                        > >



                        Prometheus



                        > >



                        P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or



                        just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the



                        Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter



                        too, or were they from somewhere else? Did



                        we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we



                        aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



                        > >



                        Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All



                        the Universes (Klemp) have access to more



                        of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)



                        for his contradictions of information? Or, does



                        Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)


                        0A
                        and is more focused upon those Souls residing



                        on the Inner Planes? LOL!



                        > >



                        I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound



                        sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield



                        Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could



                        it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced



                        by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab, At one time Twitchell was a high ranking member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron was his original source of compiled info on Jupiter. Thus, this
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Etznab,
                          At one time Twitchell was a high ranking
                          member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                          was his original source of "compiled" info
                          on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's
                          handed-down source since he tends to use
                          other people (usually dead) as inspiration
                          for his "EK wisdom."

                          As far as Marman goes... he speculates...
                          a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!

                          Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who
                          inspired him to take his piles of "research"
                          and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963
                          when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame
                          GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's
                          had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's
                          kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must
                          be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role
                          by thinking she'd helped people who were
                          desperate to believe in something more than
                          what they had with their former orthodox
                          religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and
                          other cult-like religions can say and do the
                          same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent
                          than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's
                          new buds. Gail should do the right thing and
                          jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could
                          even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and
                          post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or
                          Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to
                          clear her conscience and protect those Souls
                          whom she helped to delude.

                          BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say
                          that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang
                          manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.
                          Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/
                          written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,
                          a book of poetry?

                          Prometheus

                          Etznab wrote:
                          About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul
                          Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual
                          experience? or something he heard / read?

                          For some reason I thought about Scientology.
                          I then searched for keywords Scientology &
                          from Jupiter.

                          ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                          L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                          of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"
                          can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"
                          something directly rather than having to discover it
                          or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the
                          solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited
                          by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him
                          say it at:

                          http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                          http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                          Coincidence?

                          I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                          certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                          believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                          writers for a time.

                          Etznab



                          Prometheus,
                          You illustrated:

                          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                          that man was "placed here by colonists

                          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                          are expected to "serve."


                          That was a good point, I thought. Because

                          legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                          of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                          in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                          people speculate about what they read, and /

                          or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                          (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                          organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                          when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                          actually happened I believe people have every

                          right to challenge such allegations.


                          Here are some examples. The early manu-

                          scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                          Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                          1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                          by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                          These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                          not because I absolutely know all the details -

                          but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                          /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                          Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                          Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                          manuscripts were reportedly written.



                          In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                          "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                          In one of your past posts (I don't have the #

                          or date) you wrote:



                          "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                          his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                          back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                          was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                          I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                          Johnson's book, too.



                          Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                          the year 2000:



                          ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                          did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                          Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                          With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                          ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                          Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                          didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                          Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                          writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                          published until 1970."



                          [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                          I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                          cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                          them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                          Singh.



                          Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                          Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                          Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                          wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                          by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.


                          Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                          since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                          scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                          terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                          reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                          And it might possibly have been in the possession

                          of Eckankar for a number of years.



                          According to Kirpal Singh?



                          "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                          The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                          ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                          He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                          tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                          My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                          dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                          MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                          THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                          BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                          THAT NAME!



                          Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                          manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,

                          if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                          There has been controversy over when the name of

                          Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                          I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                          illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is

                          the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                          manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                          given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                          it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                          If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                          it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                          came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                          *************************************************************



                          Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                          the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                          have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                          If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                          that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                          does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                          have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                          the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                          I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                          One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                          in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                          Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                          (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                          Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                          Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                          have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                          that path in 1963. So ...?



                          Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                          have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                          Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                          name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                          I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                          Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                          Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                          ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                          Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                          to have the truth.



                          I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                          Etznab
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          Prometheus, I ve often wondered about Gail & Patti - ever since I started researching & posting as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was it 2005-2007? I think
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Prometheus,

                            I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                            ever since I started researching & posting
                            as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                            it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                            around there.

                            It's a big question mark, to me, about
                            whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                            with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                            for so many years? However, I don't think
                            Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                            mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                            she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                            believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                            she was not any longer active. Instead of
                            going into the details about this, my recoll-
                            ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                            the story in her own time, in her own way.

                            About how many books Paul Twitchell
                            finished before 1966, I think I see your
                            point.

                            Etznab


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06 pm
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                            JUPITER!








                            Hello Etznab,

                            At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                            member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                            was his original source of "compiled" info

                            on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                            handed-down source since he tends to use

                            other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                            for his "EK wisdom."



                            As far as Marman goes...
                            he speculates...

                            a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                            Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                            inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                            and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                            when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                            GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                            had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                            kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                            be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                            by thinking she'd helped people who were

                            desperate to believe in something more than

                            what they had with their former orthodox

                            religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                            other cult-like religions can say and do the

                            same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                            than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                            new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                            jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                            even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                            post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                            Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                            clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                            whom she helped to delude.



                            BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                            that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                            manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                            Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                            written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                            a book of poetry?
                            0D


                            Prometheus



                            Etznab wrote:

                            About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                            Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                            experience? or something he heard / read?



                            For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                            I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                            from Jupiter.



                            ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                            L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                            of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                            can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                            something directly rather than having to discover it

                            or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                            solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                            by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                            say it at:



                            http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                            http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                            Coincidence?



                            I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                            certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                            believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                            writers for a time.



                            Etznab



                            Prometheus,

                            You illustrated:



                            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                            that man was "placed here by colonists



                            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little




                            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                            Another dirty little secret is that ECKists



                            are expected to "serve."



                            That was a good point, I thought. Because



                            legends, myths, fables and folktales are part



                            of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not



                            in the beginning, they seep in over time when



                            people speculate about what they read, and /



                            or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo



                            (man-made) religion / history are a part of the



                            organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However



                            when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &



                            actually happened I believe people have every



                            right to challenge such allegations.



                            Here are some examples. The early manu-



                            scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The



                            Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later



                            1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books



                            by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                            These are examples about truth vs. fiction -



                            not because I absolutely know all the details -



                            but because the subject is "suspicious" and



                            /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                            Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal



                            Singh round about the mid 50s when the two



                            manuscripts were reportedly written.

                            0A

                            In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his



                            "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                            In one of your past posts (I don't have the #



                            or date) you wrote:



                            "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on



                            his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came



                            back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second



                            was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                            I think that information was mentioned in Ford



                            Johnson's book, too.



                            Consider what Doug Marman gave back around



                            the year 2000:



                            ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but



                            did nothing with the book until he offered it to



                            Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues



                            With The Master around 1956, from the refer-



                            ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.



                            Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but



                            didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion



                            Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's



                            writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't



                            published until 1970."



                            [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                            I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-



                            cause Paul includes him in the two book
                            s. One of



                            them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal



                            Singh.



                            Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal



                            Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in



                            Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson



                            wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"



                            by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.



                            Although I don't absolutely know all the details,



                            since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-



                            scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar



                            terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh



                            reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.



                            And it might possibly have been in the possession



                            of Eckankar for a number of years.



                            According to Kirpal Singh?



                            "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,



                            The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-



                            ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.



                            He changed that book before printing; where he men-



                            tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                            My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh



                            dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.



                            MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED



                            THE TIGER'S FAN
                            G MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS



                            BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY



                            THAT NAME!



                            Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early



                            manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,



                            if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                            There has been controversy over when the name of



                            Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date



                            I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an



                            illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is



                            the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang



                            manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs



                            given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was



                            it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?



                            If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar



                            it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who



                            came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                            *************************************************************



                            Those were examples because I have mostly seen



                            the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't



                            have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                            If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,



                            that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs



                            does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I wo
                            uld



                            have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to



                            the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                            I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.



                            One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And



                            in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                            Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.



                            (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The



                            Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in



                            Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may



                            have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into



                            that path in 1963. So ...?



                            Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to



                            have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's



                            Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the



                            name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                            I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.



                            Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-



                            Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-



                            ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                            Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right



                            to have the truth.



                            I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                            Etznab








                            0D
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hi Etznab, I figured Patti had left EKankar since she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar Board the day after Klemp & his new Board went after Darwin. Joan
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 12, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Etznab,
                              I figured Patti had left EKankar since
                              she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar
                              Board the day after Klemp & his new Board
                              went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take
                              Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,
                              the same day as the resignation. Apparently
                              Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand
                              in the wings, and await, until opportunity
                              comes a knocking.

                              Prometheus


                              Prometheus,

                              I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                              ever since I started researching & posting
                              as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                              it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                              around there.

                              It's a big question mark, to me, about
                              whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                              with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                              for so many years? However, I don't think
                              Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                              mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                              she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                              believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                              she was not any longer active. Instead of
                              going into the details about this, my recoll-
                              ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                              the story in her own time, in her own way.

                              About how many books Paul Twitchell
                              finished before 1966, I think I see your
                              point.

                              Etznab


                              prometheus wrote:

                              Hello Etznab,

                              At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                              member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                              was his original source of "compiled" info

                              on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                              handed-down source since he tends to use

                              other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                              for his "EK wisdom."


                              As far as Marman goes... he speculates...

                              a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                              Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                              inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                              and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                              when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                              GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                              had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                              kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                              be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                              by thinking she'd helped people who were

                              desperate to believe in something more than

                              what they had with their former orthodox

                              religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                              other cult-like religions can say and do the

                              same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                              than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                              new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                              jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                              even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                              post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                              Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                              clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                              whom she helped to delude.



                              BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                              that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                              manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                              Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                              written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                              a book of poetry?



                              Prometheus



                              Etznab wrote:

                              About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                              Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                              experience? or something he heard / read?



                              For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                              I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                              from Jupiter.



                              ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                              L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                              of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                              can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                              something directly rather than having to discover it

                              or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                              solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                              by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                              say it at:



                              http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                              http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                              Coincidence?



                              I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                              certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                              believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                              writers for a time.



                              Etznab
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              Prometheus, I wasn t aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I had the impression she was removed. Here is why: Another interesting development in the August 7
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Prometheus,

                                I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                                had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                                "Another interesting development in the August
                                7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                                of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                                Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                                of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                                resolution, summarily removed from this position
                                and told that

                                ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                                both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                                ediately. [....]

                                "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                                ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                                immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                                current term of Secretary."

                                [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                                A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234] 

                                Etznab

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56 pm
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                                JUPITER!








                                Hi Etznab,

                                I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                                she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                                Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                                went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                                Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                                the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                                Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                                in the win
                                gs, and await, until opportunity

                                comes a knocking.



                                Prometheus



                                Prometheus,



                                I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                                ever since I started researching & posting

                                as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                                it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                                around there.



                                It's a big question mark, to me, about

                                whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                                with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                                for so many years? However, I don't think

                                Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                                mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                                she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                                believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                                she was not any longer active. Instead of

                                going into the details about this, my recoll-

                                ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                                the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                About how many books Paul Twitchell

                                finished before 1966, I think I see your

                                point.



                                Etznab



                                prometheus wrote:



                                Hello Etznab,



                                At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                was his original source of "compiled" info



                                on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                handed-down source since he tends to use



                                other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                for his "EK wisdom."

                                0D

                                As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                desperate to believe in something more than



                                what they had with their former orthodox



                                religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                                than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                whom she helped to delude.



                                BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                                =0
                                A
                                that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                a book of poetry?



                                Prometheus



                                Etznab wrote:



                                About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul



                                Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual



                                experience? or something he heard / read?



                                For some reason I thought about Scientology.



                                I then searched for keywords Scientology &



                                from Jupiter.



                                ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                                L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science



                                of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"



                                can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"



                                something directly rather than having to discover it



                                or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the



                                solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited



                                by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him



                                say it at:



                                http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                                http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                                Coincidence?



                                I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and



                                certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I



                                believe Twitchell and Hubbard were
                                both science fiction



                                writers for a time.



                                Etznab
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hi Etznab, If I could access the Truth-Seeker site I would show the minutes from the meeting where officers and trustees were appointed along with a long
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Etznab,
                                  If I could access the Truth-Seeker
                                  site I would show the minutes from
                                  the meeting where officers and trustees
                                  were appointed along with a long discussion
                                  of what to do about Darwin. Patti was
                                  appointed as Secretary during this very
                                  long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.
                                  A recess was taken and the meeting was
                                  to resume the very next day.

                                  However, Patti resigned the next day after
                                  having the night to think or dream about
                                  what was being done to Darwin by Klemp
                                  and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan
                                  documented the details differently, after
                                  Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"
                                  when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-
                                  up began early on. A "resolution" was simply
                                  done to officially accept Patti's resignation.
                                  Another motion and "vote" was made into
                                  a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty
                                  position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman
                                  to ask Patti how it went down, according to
                                  her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

                                  Prometheus
                                  p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather
                                  than take his word for what she has to say.


                                  etznab wrote:

                                  Prometheus,

                                  I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                                  had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                                  "Another interesting development in the August
                                  7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                                  of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                                  Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                                  of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                                  resolution, summarily removed from this position
                                  and told that

                                  ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                                  both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                                  ediately. [....]

                                  "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                                  ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                                  immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                                  current term of Secretary."

                                  [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                                  A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â

                                  Etznab

                                  Prometheus wrote:


                                  Hi Etznab,

                                  I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                                  she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                                  Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                                  went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                                  Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                                  the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                                  Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                                  in the wings, and await, until opportunity

                                  comes a knocking.



                                  Prometheus



                                  Prometheus,



                                  I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                                  ever since I started researching & posting

                                  as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                                  it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                                  around there.



                                  It's a big question mark, to me, about

                                  whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                                  with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                                  for so many years? However, I don't think

                                  Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                                  mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                                  she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                                  believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                                  she was not any longer active. Instead of

                                  going into the details about this, my recoll-

                                  ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                                  the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                  About how many books Paul Twitchell

                                  finished before 1966, I think I see your

                                  point.



                                  Etznab



                                  prometheus wrote:



                                  Hello Etznab,



                                  At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                  member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                  was his original source of "compiled" info



                                  on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                  handed-down source since he tends to use



                                  other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                  for his "EK wisdom."



                                  As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                  a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                  Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                  inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                  and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                  when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                  GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                  had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                  kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                  be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                  by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                  desperate to believe in something more than



                                  what they had with their former orthodox



                                  religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                  other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                  same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                                  than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                  new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                  jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                  even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                  post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                  Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                  clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                  whom she helped to delude.



                                  BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                                  =0
                                  A
                                  that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                  manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                  Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                  written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                  a book of poetry?



                                  Prometheus
                                • etznab@aol.com
                                  Prometheus, Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this what I had read. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 16, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Prometheus,

                                    Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this
                                    what I had read.

                                    Etznab

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                                    Removed!








                                    Hi Etznab,

                                    If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                    site I would show the minutes from

                                    the meeting where officers and trustees

                                    were appointed along with a long discussion

                                    of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                    appointed as Secretary during this very

                                    long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                    A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                    to resume the very next day.



                                    However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                    having the night to think or dream about

                                    what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                    and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                    documented the details differently, after

                                    Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                    when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                    up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                    done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                                    Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                    a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                    position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                    to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                    her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                    =0
                                    APrometheus

                                    p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                    than take his word for what she has to say.



                                    etznab wrote:



                                    Prometheus,



                                    I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                                    had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                                    "Another interesting development in the August

                                    7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                                    of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                                    Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                                    of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                                    resolution, summarily removed from this position

                                    and told that



                                    ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                                    both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                                    ediately. [....]



                                    "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                                    ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                                    immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                                    current term of Secretary."



                                    [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                                    A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                                    Etznab



                                    Prometheus wrote:



                                    Hi Etznab,



                                    I figured Patti had left EKankar since



                                    she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                                    Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                                    went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                                    Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                                    the same day as th
                                    e resignation. Apparently



                                    Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                                    in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                                    comes a knocking.



                                    Prometheus



                                    Prometheus,



                                    I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                                    ever since I started researching & posting



                                    as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                                    it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                                    around there.



                                    It's a big question mark, to me, about



                                    whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                                    with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                                    for so many years? However, I don't think



                                    Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                                    mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                                    she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                                    believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                                    she was not any longer active. Instead of



                                    going into the details about this, my recoll-



                                    ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                                    the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                    About how many books Paul Twitchell



                                    finished before 1966, I think I see your



                                    point.



                                    Etznab



                                    prometheus wrote:



                                    Hello Etznab,



                                    At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                    member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                                    0A


                                    was his original source of "compiled" info



                                    on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                    handed-down source since he tends to use



                                    other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                    for his "EK wisdom."



                                    As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                    a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                    Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                    inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                    and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                    when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                    GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                    had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                    kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                    be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                    by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                    desperate to believe in something more than



                                    what they had with their former orthodox



                                    religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                    other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                    same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                                    than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                    new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                    jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                    even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                    post so
                                    me tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                    Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                    clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                    whom she helped to delude.



                                    BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                                    =0

                                    A

                                    that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                    manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                    Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                    written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                    a book of poetry?



                                    Prometheus
                                  • etznab@aol.com
                                    Something else for this thread. From The Truth-Seeker site. It doesn t have to do with the August 7th, 1983 meeting. Not unless that was the time when Patti
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 27, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Something else for this thread. From The
                                      Truth-Seeker site.

                                      It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                      1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                      time when Patti became not active. My
                                      guess was it refers to some time later.

                                      [....]

                                      A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                      an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                      Freeman

                                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                      I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                      Doug's response:

                                      "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                      fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                      not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                      rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                      http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                      I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                      a response, but I assume it was February
                                      2004. The 16th?

                                      Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                      Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                      until days later, but I think the link where he
                                      did respond is currently not working.

                                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                      Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                      guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                      the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                      Forum link.

                                      There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                      on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                      the present time.

                                      At any rate, according to D
                                      oug (apparently)
                                      Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                      at least.

                                      I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                      or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                      terminated or resigned from her position of
                                      Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                      it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                      that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                      future wife.

                                      Etznab





                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                                      Removed!








                                      Hi Etznab,

                                      If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                      site I would show the minutes from

                                      the meeting where officers and trustees

                                      were appointed along with a long discussion

                                      of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                      appointed as Secretary during this very

                                      long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                      A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                      to resume the very next day.



                                      However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                      having the night to think or dream about

                                      what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                      and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                      documented the details differently, after

                                      Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                      when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                      up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                      done to officiall
                                      y accept Patti's resignation.

                                      Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                      a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                      position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                      to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                      her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                      Prometheus

                                      p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                      than take his word for what she has to say.



                                      etznab wrote:



                                      Prometheus,



                                      I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                                      had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                                      "Another interesting development in the August

                                      7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                                      of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                                      Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                                      of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                                      resolution, summarily removed from this position

                                      and told that



                                      ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                                      both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                                      ediately. [....]



                                      "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                                      ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                                      immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                                      current term of Secretary."



                                      [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                                      A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                                      Etznab



                                      Prometheus wrote:



                                      Hi Etznab,



                                      I
                                      figured Patti had left EKankar since



                                      she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                                      Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                                      went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                                      Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                                      the same day as the resignation. Apparently



                                      Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                                      in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                                      comes a knocking.



                                      Prometheus



                                      Prometheus,



                                      I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                                      ever since I started researching & posting



                                      as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                                      it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                                      around there.



                                      It's a big question mark, to me, about



                                      whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                                      with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                                      for so many years? However, I don't think



                                      Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                                      mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                                      she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                                      believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                                      she was not any longer active. Instead of



                                      going into the details about this, my recoll-



                                      ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                                      the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                      About how=2
                                      0many books Paul Twitchell



                                      finished before 1966, I think I see your



                                      point.



                                      Etznab



                                      prometheus wrote:



                                      Hello Etznab,



                                      At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                      member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                      was his original source of "compiled" info



                                      on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                      handed-down source since he tends to use



                                      other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                      for his "EK wisdom."



                                      As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                      a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                      Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                      inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                      and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                      when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                      GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                      had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                      kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                      be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                      by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                      desperate to believe in something more than



                                      what they had with their former orthodox



                                      religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                      other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                      same. Therefore, Gai
                                      l is more the KAL agent



                                      than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                      new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                      jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                      even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                      post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                      Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                      clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                      whom she helped to delude.



                                      BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                                      =0

                                      A

                                      that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                      manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                      Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                      written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                      a book of poetry?



                                      Prometheus
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of figured that Patti wasn t active in ECKankar since she was talking so highly about Ram Dass recently. And, since she
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 2, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of
                                        figured that Patti wasn't active in ECKankar
                                        since she was talking so highly about Ram
                                        Dass recently. And, since she hasn't kept
                                        her EK Membership current, this means
                                        that her consciousness is now around
                                        that of a current 2nd Initiate! Wow! From
                                        8th to 2nd just because of a few bucks
                                        ($$$)! Actually, would a real spiritual
                                        "path" charge money to maintain one's
                                        (Soul's) inner plane level of consciousness?
                                        Well, yes! Because all of this (religions, etc.)
                                        is of the physical and Not the spiritual.
                                        That's why they sell books and other
                                        materials and require "requested" donations!
                                        The only "free lunch" (freedom) comes
                                        when Soul eliminates the middleman!

                                        Prometheus


                                        Etznab wrote:
                                        Something else for this thread. From The
                                        Truth-Seeker site.

                                        It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                        1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                        time when Patti became not active. My
                                        guess was it refers to some time later.

                                        [....]

                                        A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                        an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                        Freeman

                                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                        I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                        Doug's response:

                                        "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                        fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                        not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                        rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                        http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                        I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                        a response, but I assume it was February
                                        2004. The 16th?

                                        Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                        Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                        until days later, but I think the link where he
                                        did respond is currently not working.

                                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                        Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                        guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                        the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                        Forum link.

                                        There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                        on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                        the present time.

                                        At any rate, according to Doug (apparently)
                                        Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                        at least.

                                        I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                        or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                        terminated or resigned from her position of
                                        Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                        it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                        that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                        future wife.

                                        Etznab



                                        Hi Etznab,

                                        If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                        site I would show the minutes from

                                        the meeting where officers and trustees

                                        were appointed along with a long discussion

                                        of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                        appointed as Secretary during this very

                                        long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                        A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                        to resume the very next day.



                                        However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                        having the night to think or dream about

                                        what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                        and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                        documented the details differently, after

                                        Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                        when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                        up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                        done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                                        Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                        a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                        position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                        to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                        her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                        Prometheus

                                        p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                        than take his word for what she has to say.
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