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HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

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  • prometheus_973
    Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta) The Wisdom Notes SPRING 1984: ... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master. The world is never without him, for the line of ECK Adepts
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
      The world is never without him, for the line
      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
      from JUPITER."

      ME: WOW! JUPITER!

      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
      JUPITER!"

      Where are the other RACES from?

      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
      I don't think so!!!

      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
      from?

      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
      Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
      another Klemp story! Yawn!

      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!

      Prometheus

      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
      of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
      for his contradictions of information? Or, does
      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
      and is more focused upon those Souls residing
      on the Inner Planes? LOL!

      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
    • etznab@aol.com
      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone mistranslated it to begin with. [....] The destruction of the
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
        when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
        mistranslated it to begin with.

        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
        all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
        the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
        years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
        empire throughout the world. [....]"

        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
        Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
        1986, p. 97 ]

        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
        its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
        crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
        of years ago. [....]"

        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
        Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

        It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
        in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 4:03 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!



        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

        The world is never without him, for the line

        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

        from JUPITER."


        0A
        ME: WOW! JUPITER!



        When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

        in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

        the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



        People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

        to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

        JUPITER!"



        Where are the other RACES from?



        Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

        I don't think so!!!



        What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

        from?



        Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

        Far Away? That sounds like the makings for

        another Klemp story! Yawn!



        Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

        Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

        Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

        covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



        This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

        question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



        Prometheus



        P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

        just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

        Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

        too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

        we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

        aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



        Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

        the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

        of this info in order to give some clarity (excus
        e)

        for his contradictions of information? Or, does

        Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

        and is more focused upon those Souls residing

        on the Inner Planes? LOL!



        I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

        sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

        Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

        it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

        by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
      • prometheus_973
        Klemp is a scammer and his followers are gullible New Age wannabes! How can rational and intelligent people believe in this crap! Most ECKists came from
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Klemp is a scammer and his followers
          are gullible New Age wannabes!

          How can rational and intelligent people
          believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
          from orthodox religions that taught
          similar fiction and myth. And, these
          Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
          New Age ones have complex dogmas
          and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
          of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
          Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

          All religions rely upon the current
          LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
          the imaginations of his believers!

          I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
          that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
          HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
          when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

          "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
          Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
          through the worlds, through the Planes
          and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
          of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
          At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
          of matter--some of the newly formed
          planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
          THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
          world of EARTH.

          Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
          formed the consciousness of man in
          the flesh temple of the human body,
          to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
          and take up the burdens of karma until
          at last, one day, each would be ready
          to return to the heavenly home." [end]

          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
          that man was "placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
          are expected to "serve."

          Here's an interesting definition from
          Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

          "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
          which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
          of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
          was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
          FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
          the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

          It's true that Twitchell was a professional
          liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
          stole the words and ideas of others without
          giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
          of spiritual experiences from chelas written
          in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
          use these as "inspiration" for his books that
          he receives 50% royalties on!

          Prometheus


          ************************************************
          ETZNAB WROTE:
          Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
          when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
          mistranslated it to begin with.

          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
          all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
          the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
          years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
          empire throughout the world. [....]"

          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
          Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
          1986, p. 97 ]

          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
          its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
          crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
          of years ago. [....]"

          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
          Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

          It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
          in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
          >
          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
          The world is never without him, for the line
          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
          from JUPITER."
          >
          ME: WOW! JUPITER!
          >
          When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
          in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
          the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
          >
          People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
          to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
          JUPITER!"
          >
          Where are the other RACES from?
          >
          Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
          I don't think so!!!
          >
          What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
          from?
          >
          Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
          Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
          another Klemp story! Yawn!
          >
          Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
          Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
          Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
          covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
          >
          This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
          question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
          >
          Prometheus
          >
          P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
          just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
          Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
          too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
          we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
          aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
          >
          Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
          the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
          of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
          for his contradictions of information? Or, does
          Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
          and is more focused upon those Souls residing
          on the Inner Planes? LOL!
          >
          I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
          sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
          Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
          it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
          by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
        • etznab@aol.com
          More space-people & Eckankar trivia. Eckankar was brought here from Venus by a little known race which is living in Agam Des, and whom we know as the Eshwar
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

            "Eckankar was brought here from Venus by a little
            known race which is living in Agam Des, and whom
            we know as the Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
            in italics], or simply as the God-eaters. These beings
            are members of the Ancient Brotherhood, or Order, of
            the Vairagi. They attained their name, the god-eaters,
            from the fact that they absorb cosmic energies instead
            of assimilating plants and other foods." [my brackets]

            Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers, Copyright 1971,
            2nd printing 1987, p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 2:31 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!



            Klemp is a scammer and his followers

            are gullible New Age wannabes!



            How can rational and intelligent people

            believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

            from orthodox religions that taught

            similar fiction and myth. And, these

            Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

            New Age ones have complex dogmas

            and glowing "spiritual" testimonials

            of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

            Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



            All religions rely upon the current

            LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

            the imaginations of his believers!



            I'm still wondering how Klemp can sa
            y

            that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

            HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

            when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



            "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

            Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

            through the worlds, through the Planes

            and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

            of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

            At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

            of matter--some of the newly formed

            planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

            THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

            world of EARTH.



            Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

            formed the consciousness of man in

            the flesh temple of the human body,

            to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

            and take up the burdens of karma until

            at last, one day, each would be ready

            to return to the heavenly home." [end]



            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

            that man was "placed here by colonists

            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

            Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

            are expected to "serve."



            Here's an interesting definition from

            Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



            "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

            which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

            of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

            was the FIRST20MAN and EDE, the

            FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

            the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."



            It's true that Twitchell was a professional

            liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

            stole the words and ideas of others without

            giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

            of spiritual experiences from chelas written

            in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

            use these as "inspiration" for his books that

            he receives 50% royalties on!



            Prometheus



            ************************************************

            ETZNAB WROTE:

            Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

            when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

            mistranslated it to begin with.



            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

            all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

            the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

            years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

            empire throughout the world. [....]"



            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,

            Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

            1986, p. 97 ]



            "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

            its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

            crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

            of years ago. [....]"



            [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book

            Two, Second Edition - 1
            988, p. 112]



            It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans

            in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!



            prometheus wrote:

            >

            Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

            "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

            >

            "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

            The world is never without him, for the line

            of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

            ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

            from JUPITER."

            >

            ME: WOW! JUPITER!

            >

            When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

            in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

            the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

            >

            People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

            to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

            JUPITER!"

            >

            Where are the other RACES from?

            >

            Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

            I don't think so!!!

            >

            What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

            from?

            >

            Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

            Far Away? That sounds like the makings for

            another Klemp story! Yawn!

            >

            Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

            Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

            Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

            covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

            >

            This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

            question to the inner"=2
            0works in Eckankar!

            >

            Prometheus

            >

            P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

            just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

            Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

            too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

            we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

            aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

            >

            Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

            the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

            of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

            for his contradictions of information? Or, does

            Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

            and is more focused upon those Souls residing

            on the Inner Planes? LOL!

            >

            I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

            sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

            Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

            it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

            by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Etznab and All, Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit! Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS! Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Etznab and All,
              Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
              (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
              Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

              Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
              Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
              mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

              "CLARION. A planet where higher
              evolved Souls are living to help carry
              on the work of GOD throughout the
              universe."

              Etznab wrote:

              More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

              "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
              by a little known race which is living in
              Agam Des, and whom we know as the
              Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
              in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
              These beings are members of the Ancient
              Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
              They attained their name, the god-eaters,
              from the fact that they absorb cosmic
              energies instead of assimilating plants
              and other foods." [my brackets]

              Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
              Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
              p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

              ******************************************

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              Klemp is a scammer and his followers
              are gullible New Age wannabes!
              >
              How can rational and intelligent people
              believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
              from orthodox religions that taught
              similar fiction and myth. And, these
              Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
              New Age ones have complex dogmas
              and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
              of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
              Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
              >
              All religions rely upon the current
              LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
              the imaginations of his believers!
              >
              I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
              that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
              HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
              when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
              >
              "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
              Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
              through the worlds, through the Planes
              and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
              of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
              At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
              of matter--some of the newly formed
              planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
              THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
              world of EARTH.
              >
              Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
              formed the consciousness of man in
              the flesh temple of the human body,
              to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
              and take up the burdens of karma until
              at last, one day, each would be ready
              to return to the heavenly home." [end]
              >
              I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
              5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
              1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
              that man was "placed here by colonists
              from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
              secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
              Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
              are expected to "serve."
              >
              Here's an interesting definition from
              Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
              >
              "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
              which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
              of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
              was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
              FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
              the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
              >
              It's true that Twitchell was a professional
              liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
              stole the words and ideas of others without
              giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
              of spiritual experiences from chelas written
              in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
              use these as "inspiration" for his books that
              he receives 50% royalties on!
              >
              Prometheus
              >
              ************************************************
              ETZNAB WROTE:
              Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
              when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
              mistranslated it to begin with.
              >
              "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
              all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
              the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
              years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
              empire throughout the world. [....]"
              >
              [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
              Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
              1986, p. 97 ]
              >
              "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
              its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
              crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
              of years ago. [....]"
              >
              [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
              Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
              >
              It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
              in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

              prometheus wrote:
              > >
              Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
              "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
              > >
              "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
              The world is never without him, for the line
              of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
              ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
              from JUPITER."
              > >
              ME: WOW! JUPITER!
              > >
              When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
              in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
              the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
              > >
              People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
              to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
              JUPITER!"
              > >
              Where are the other RACES from?
              > >
              Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
              I don't think sooooo!!!
              > >
              What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
              from?
              > >
              Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
              Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
              another Klemp story! Yawn!
              > >
              Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
              Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
              Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
              covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
              > >
              This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
              question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
              > >
              Prometheus
              > >
              P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
              just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
              Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
              too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
              we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
              aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
              > >
              Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
              the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
              of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
              for his contradictions of information? Or, does
              Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
              and is more focused upon those Souls residing
              on the Inner Planes? LOL!
              > >
              I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
              sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
              Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
              it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
              by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Etznab and All, It s interesting that Twitchell says that the God-Eaters and the Order of the Vairagi, are a RACE and Twitch states that they are
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 6, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Etznab and All,
                It's interesting that Twitchell says that
                the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
                Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
                that they are from both Venus and Agam
                Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
                Agam Des is located on Earth!

                Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
                and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
                reside there as a GOD-EATER.

                BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
                Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
                SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
                or Eckankar copyright is he!

                "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:

                "At the European and African ECK Seminars
                we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
                ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
                'What is the HU?"

                Klemp now tells of a reported experience
                of a female ECKist attending.

                "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
                she shut her eyes and chanted with the
                audience, silently asking three times, 'What
                is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
                to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
                again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
                face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."

                The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
                Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
                gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
                Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
                Plane!

                Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
                "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
                How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
                if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
                Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
                subjective experience!

                Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
                where's the portrait of SAT NAM?

                Check out these sites-

                http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam

                Prometheus

                Thanks for the following info Etznab:

                "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
                by a little known RACE which is living in
                AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
                ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
                GOD-EATERS.

                These beings are members of the ANCIENT
                BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
                They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
                from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
                ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
                plants and other foods."

                Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                > are gullible New Age wannabes!
                >
                > How can rational and intelligent people
                > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                > from orthodox religions that taught
                > similar fiction and myth. And, these
                > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                > New Age ones have complex dogmas
                > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                >
                > All religions rely upon the current
                > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                > the imaginations of his believers!
                >
                > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
                >
                > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                > through the worlds, through the Planes
                > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                > of matter--some of the newly formed
                > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                > world of EARTH.
                >
                > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                > formed the consciousness of man in
                > the flesh temple of the human body,
                > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                > and take up the burdens of karma until
                > at last, one day, each would be ready
                > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
                >
                > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                > that man was "placed here by colonists
                > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                > are expected to "serve."
                >
                > Here's an interesting definition from
                > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                >
                > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                >
                > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                > stole the words and ideas of others without
                > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                > he receives 50% royalties on!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > ************************************************
                > ETZNAB WROTE:
                > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                > mistranslated it to begin with.
                >
                > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                > empire throughout the world. [....]"
                >
                > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
                > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                > 1986, p. 97 ]
                >
                > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                > of years ago. [....]"
                >
                > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
                > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                >
                > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
                > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                > >
                > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                > The world is never without him, for the line
                > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                > from JUPITER."
                > >
                > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                > >
                > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                > >
                > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                > JUPITER!"
                > >
                > Where are the other RACES from?
                > >
                > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                > I don't think so!!!
                > >
                > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                > from?
                > >
                > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                > another Klemp story! Yawn!
                > >
                > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                > >
                > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                > >
                > Prometheus
                > >
                > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                > >
                > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                > >
                > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                >
              • prometheus_973
                GOTTA is mentioned on page 82 of the EK Lexicon and was among the 1st of the Vairagi Order... claims both Twit and Klemp. However, HERACLITUS is Not mentioned
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 8, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  GOTTA is mentioned on page 82
                  of the EK Lexicon and was among
                  the 1st of the Vairagi Order...
                  claims both Twit and Klemp.

                  However, HERACLITUS is Not
                  mentioned as an ECK Master,
                  although, the HERACLIANS are
                  mentioned as a future ROOT
                  race in Klemp's Lexicon!

                  At least now I know where both
                  Klemp and Twit found their info
                  in order to twist their facts.

                  "Heraclians. A future ROOT RACE
                  to conquer and control the world;
                  fair and just, they will rule around
                  the year 6025 A.D., and the
                  civilization will last from 500 to 1000
                  years." [EK Lexicon, Copyright 1998,
                  pg. 87]

                  "HERACLIANS. The FIFTH RACE to
                  conquer and control the world of the
                  future; fair and just, they will rule
                  around the year 6025 and the
                  civilization will last from 500 to 1000
                  years." [PT's Eckankar Dictionary,
                  Sixth Printing 1986, pg. 60]

                  Interesting that Klemp CHANGED
                  Twitchell's info and refers to these
                  people as a future "ROOT" race while
                  PT says that this is the "FIFTH" race
                  to conquer and control the world.
                  Isn't the FIFTH RACE, according to
                  ECK DOGMA, the ARYAN RACE!
                  It seems that Klemp is cleaning up
                  PT's crap again, or maybe HK mistakenly
                  misinterpreted what Twit was really
                  saying???

                  BTW- Both Twit and Klemp give this
                  same definition:

                  "ARRIANS. A cruel race which will
                  take over Earth about the year 3500
                  A.D., later spreading to Mars and Venus."
                  [EK Lexicon, pg.11]


                  HK-"The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1985:

                  "HERACLITUS, the ancient Greek philosopher,
                  had a Mental Concept of the ECK that
                  reduced It to the level of the Mind Power.
                  BUT Heraclitus saw that Reality in the
                  Universe is at the mercy of the LAW
                  of CHANGE, since THINGS FLOW IN the
                  Universe all the time...

                  For us, the conflict of mind and Spirit boils
                  down to a practical issue: Who takes care
                  of things--God or me?

                  Mostly, it is the initiate who must take
                  care of himself.

                  The Mahanta shows him HOW TO get
                  insights from the ECK through intuition,
                  Soul Travel, or dreams.

                  A PERSON IN THE ECK LINE OF UNFOLDMENT
                  IS SOON ABLE TO GET FREE OF THE HOPELESS
                  HUMAN CONDITION AND RISE ABOVE IT INTO
                  THE PURE STATES OF WISDOM, FREEDOM, AND
                  IMMORTALITY." [end of quote]

                  So, this ECK Unfoldment to the PURE STATES
                  of Wisdom, Freedom and Immortality takes
                  place SOON for the chela!

                  That's BULLSHIT isn't it!

                  The only "plus factor" in Eckankar is that
                  there is always another Catch-22 and hoop
                  to jump through! Fame and Service are key
                  for promotion to a 7th and/or RESA position.

                  How to become a Klemp minion: Pull in
                  a lot of new members and money like Don
                  and Bob and a 7th RESA can make it to
                  the 8th. Marry the Klempster, become a
                  Trustee, Pres. or V.P. of the ORG, or be on
                  the Spiritual Council and one can get an 8th
                  too! The thing is... narcissists just don't
                  want to share the power! This is why
                  Klemp doesn't promote more people
                  into the 8th & 9th Circles and why he
                  really "slowed down" the initiations. It's
                  all just too obvious!

                  Prometheus


                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > It's interesting that Twitchell says that
                  > the "God-Eaters" and the "Order of the
                  > Vairagi," are a RACE and Twitch states
                  > that they are from both Venus and Agam
                  > Des! According to Klemp's EK Lexicon
                  > Agam Des is located on Earth!
                  >
                  > Interesting, too, that the BALD EK Master
                  > and former Mahanta, Yaubl Sacabi,
                  > reside there as a GOD-EATER.
                  >
                  > BTW- What does SAT NAM look like?
                  > Is there a portrait of him? I guess that
                  > SAT NAM isn't an exclusive EK Master
                  > or Eckankar copyright is he!
                  >
                  > "The Wisdom Notes" WINTER 1987:
                  >
                  > "At the European and African ECK Seminars
                  > we sang HU in a different fashion than usual.
                  > ... we sang it while repeating in our minds,
                  > 'What is the HU?"
                  >
                  > Klemp now tells of a reported experience
                  > of a female ECKist attending.
                  >
                  > "... when the LEM introduced the HU chant,
                  > she shut her eyes and chanted with the
                  > audience, silently asking three times, 'What
                  > is the HU?' She reopened her eyes a moment
                  > to look at the Master. Then closing her eyes
                  > again, she saw in her SPIRITUAL EYE a shining
                  > face with a BALD HEAD: SAT NAM."
                  >
                  > The funny thing is that the 6th CHAKRA or
                  > Spiritual Eye, Tisra Til, Third Eye, etc. only
                  > gets one to the (2nd) ASTRAL PLANE and Sat
                  > Nam is supposed to reside on the (5th) Soul
                  > Plane!
                  >
                  > Also, how does this ECKist KNOW that this
                  > "bald" guy is Sat Nam and not Yaubl Sacabi!!!
                  > How does she know what Sat Nam looks like
                  > if she hasn't seen any authorized portrait!
                  > Klemp didn't see her vision or share her
                  > subjective experience!
                  >
                  > Plus, all this happened in 1987... so
                  > where's the portrait of SAT NAM?
                  >
                  > Check out these sites-
                  >
                  > http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/index.html
                  >
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnam
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > Thanks for the following info Etznab:
                  >
                  > "ECKANKAR was brought here from VENUS
                  > by a little known RACE which is living in
                  > AGAM DES, and whom we know as the
                  > ESHWAR KANEWALE, or simply as the
                  > GOD-EATERS.
                  >
                  > These beings are members of the ANCIENT
                  > BROTHERHOOD, or ORDER, of the VAIRAGI.
                  > They attained their name, the GOD-EATERS,
                  > from THE FACT that THEY ABSORB COSMIC
                  > ENERGIES [the ECK?] instead of assimilating
                  > plants and other foods."
                  >
                  > Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                  > Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                  > p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                  > > are gullible New Age wannabes!
                  > >
                  > > How can rational and intelligent people
                  > > believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                  > > from orthodox religions that taught
                  > > similar fiction and myth. And, these
                  > > Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                  > > New Age ones have complex dogmas
                  > > and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                  > > of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                  > > Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                  > >
                  > > All religions rely upon the current
                  > > LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                  > > the imaginations of his believers!
                  > >
                  > > I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                  > > that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                  > > HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                  > > when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
                  > >
                  > > "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                  > > Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                  > > through the worlds, through the Planes
                  > > and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                  > > of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                  > > At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                  > > of matter--some of the newly formed
                  > > planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                  > > THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                  > > world of EARTH.
                  > >
                  > > Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                  > > formed the consciousness of man in
                  > > the flesh temple of the human body,
                  > > to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                  > > and take up the burdens of karma until
                  > > at last, one day, each would be ready
                  > > to return to the heavenly home." [end]
                  > >
                  > > I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                  > > 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                  > > 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                  > > that man was "placed here by colonists
                  > > from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                  > > secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                  > > Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                  > > are expected to "serve."
                  > >
                  > > Here's an interesting definition from
                  > > Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                  > >
                  > > "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                  > > which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                  > > of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                  > > was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                  > > FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                  > > the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                  > >
                  > > It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                  > > liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                  > > stole the words and ideas of others without
                  > > giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                  > > of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                  > > in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                  > > use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                  > > he receives 50% royalties on!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ************************************************
                  > > ETZNAB WROTE:
                  > > Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                  > > when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                  > > mistranslated it to begin with.
                  > >
                  > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                  > > all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                  > > the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                  > > years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                  > > empire throughout the world. [....]"
                  > >
                  > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad,
                  > > Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                  > > 1986, p. 97 ]
                  > >
                  > > "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                  > > its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                  > > crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                  > > of years ago. [....]"
                  > >
                  > > [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
                  > > Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                  > >
                  > > It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
                  > > in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!
                  > >
                  > > prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                  > > "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                  > > >
                  > > "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                  > > The world is never without him, for the line
                  > > of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                  > > ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                  > > from JUPITER."
                  > > >
                  > > ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                  > > >
                  > > When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                  > > in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                  > > the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                  > > >
                  > > People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                  > > to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                  > > JUPITER!"
                  > > >
                  > > Where are the other RACES from?
                  > > >
                  > > Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                  > > I don't think so!!!
                  > > >
                  > > What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                  > > from?
                  > > >
                  > > Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                  > > Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                  > > another Klemp story! Yawn!
                  > > >
                  > > Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                  > > Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                  > > Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                  > > covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                  > > >
                  > > This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                  > > question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                  > > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > > >
                  > > P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                  > > just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                  > > Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                  > > too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                  > > we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                  > > aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                  > > >
                  > > Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                  > > the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                  > > of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                  > > for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                  > > Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                  > > and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                  > > on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                  > > >
                  > > I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                  > > sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                  > > Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                  > > it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                  > > by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                  > >
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking to seekers?
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 12, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I thought I'd bring this back for
                    another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
                    Ever to mention the Jupiter and
                    Venus connection with the EK
                    Masters when speaking to seekers?
                    Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
                    ever to mention the lifetime "service"
                    requirement to new seekers? No,
                    again! I wonder, why Not? Too
                    much Truth... they'd get spiritual
                    indigestion!!!

                    Prometheus


                    Re: HK: ARYANS Are From JUPITER!

                    Hi Etznab and All,
                    Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
                    (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
                    Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

                    Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
                    Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
                    mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

                    "CLARION. A planet where higher
                    evolved Souls are living to help carry
                    on the work of GOD throughout the
                    universe."

                    Etznab wrote:

                    More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

                    "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
                    by a little known race which is living in
                    Agam Des, and whom we know as the
                    Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
                    in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
                    These beings are members of the Ancient
                    Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
                    They attained their name, the god-eaters,
                    from the fact that they absorb cosmic
                    energies instead of assimilating plants
                    and other foods." [my brackets]

                    Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                    Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                    p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

                    ******************************************

                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                    are gullible New Age wannabes!
                    >
                    How can rational and intelligent people
                    believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                    from orthodox religions that taught
                    similar fiction and myth. And, these
                    Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                    New Age ones have complex dogmas
                    and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                    of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                    Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                    >
                    All religions rely upon the current
                    LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                    the imaginations of his believers!
                    >
                    I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                    that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                    HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                    when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:
                    >
                    "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                    Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                    through the worlds, through the Planes
                    and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                    of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                    At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                    of matter--some of the newly formed
                    planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                    THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                    world of EARTH.
                    >
                    Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                    formed the consciousness of man in
                    the flesh temple of the human body,
                    to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                    and take up the burdens of karma until
                    at last, one day, each would be ready
                    to return to the heavenly home." [end]
                    >
                    I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                    5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                    1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                    that man was "placed here by colonists
                    from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                    secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                    Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                    are expected to "serve."
                    >
                    Here's an interesting definition from
                    Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                    >
                    "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                    which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                    of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                    was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                    FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                    the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                    >
                    It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                    liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                    stole the words and ideas of others without
                    giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                    of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                    in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                    use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                    he receives 50% royalties on!
                    >
                    Prometheus
                    >
                    ************************************************
                    ETZNAB WROTE:
                    Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                    when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                    mistranslated it to begin with.
                    >
                    "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                    all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                    the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                    years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                    empire throughout the world. [....]"
                    >
                    [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                    Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                    1986, p. 97 ]
                    >
                    "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                    its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                    crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                    of years ago. [....]"
                    >
                    [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                    Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                    >
                    It looks like someone got rid of that reference to Arayans
                    in the Satya Yuga. And it only took until 1988!

                    prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                    "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                    > >
                    "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                    The world is never without him, for the line
                    of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                    ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                    from JUPITER."
                    > >
                    ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                    > >
                    When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                    in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                    the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                    > >
                    People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                    to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                    JUPITER!"
                    > >
                    Where are the other RACES from?
                    > >
                    Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                    I don't think sooooo!!!
                    > >
                    What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                    from?
                    > >
                    Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                    Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                    another Klemp story! Yawn!
                    > >
                    Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                    Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                    Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                    covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                    > >
                    This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                    question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                    > >
                    Prometheus
                    > >
                    P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                    just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                    Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                    too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                    we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                    aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                    > >
                    Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                    the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                    of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                    for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                    Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                    and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                    on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                    > >
                    I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                    sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                    Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                    it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                    by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 6, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      I thought I'd bring this back for
                      another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
                      Ever to mention the Jupiter and
                      Venus connection with the EK
                      Masters when speaking to seekers?
                      Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
                      ever to mention the lifetime "service"
                      requirement to new seekers? No,
                      again! I wonder, why Not? Too
                      much Truth... they'd get spiritual
                      indigestion!!!

                      - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -

                      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING
                      1984 writes:

                      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
                      The world is never without him, for the line
                      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                      from JUPITER."

                      Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
                      (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
                      Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

                      Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
                      Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
                      mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

                      "CLARION. A planet where higher
                      evolved Souls are living to help carry
                      on the work of GOD throughout the
                      universe."

                      Etznab wrote:

                      More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

                      "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
                      by a little known race which is living in
                      Agam Des, and whom we know as the
                      Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
                      in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
                      These beings are members of the Ancient
                      Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
                      They attained their name, the god-eaters,
                      from the fact that they absorb cosmic
                      energies instead of assimilating plants
                      and other foods." [my brackets]

                      Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
                      Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
                      p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

                      ******************************************

                      prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      Klemp is a scammer and his followers
                      are gullible New Age wannabes!
                      >
                      How can rational and intelligent people
                      believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
                      from orthodox religions that taught
                      similar fiction and myth. And, these
                      Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
                      New Age ones have complex dogmas
                      and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
                      of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
                      Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
                      >
                      All religions rely upon the current
                      LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
                      the imaginations of his believers!
                      >
                      I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
                      that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
                      HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
                      when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

                      "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
                      Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
                      through the worlds, through the Planes
                      and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
                      of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
                      At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
                      of matter--some of the newly formed
                      planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
                      THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
                      world of EARTH.

                      Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
                      formed the consciousness of man in
                      the flesh temple of the human body,
                      to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
                      and take up the burdens of karma until
                      at last, one day, each would be ready
                      to return to the heavenly home." [end]

                      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                      that man was "placed here by colonists
                      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                      Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                      are expected to "serve."
                      >
                      Here's an interesting definition from
                      Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
                      >
                      "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
                      which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
                      of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
                      was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
                      FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
                      the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
                      >
                      It's true that Twitchell was a professional
                      liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
                      stole the words and ideas of others without
                      giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
                      of spiritual experiences from chelas written
                      in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
                      use these as "inspiration" for his books that
                      he receives 50% royalties on!
                      >
                      Prometheus
                      >
                      ************************************************
                      ETZNAB WROTE:
                      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
                      when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
                      mistranslated it to begin with.
                      >
                      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
                      all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
                      the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
                      years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
                      empire throughout the world. [....]"
                      >
                      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                      Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
                      1986, p. 97 ]
                      >
                      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
                      its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
                      crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
                      of years ago. [....]"
                      >
                      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                      Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
                      >
                      It looks like someone got rid of that reference
                      to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took
                      until 1988!

                      prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
                      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
                      > >
                      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
                      The world is never without him, for the line
                      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
                      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
                      from JUPITER."
                      > >
                      ME: WOW! JUPITER!
                      > >
                      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
                      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
                      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
                      > >
                      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
                      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
                      JUPITER!"
                      > >
                      Where are the other RACES from?
                      > >
                      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
                      I don't think sooooo!!!
                      > >
                      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
                      from?
                      > >
                      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
                      Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
                      another Klemp story! Yawn!
                      > >
                      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
                      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
                      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
                      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
                      > >
                      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
                      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
                      > >
                      Prometheus
                      > >
                      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
                      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
                      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
                      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
                      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
                      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
                      > >
                      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
                      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
                      of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
                      for his contradictions of information? Or, does
                      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
                      and is more focused upon those Souls residing
                      on the Inner Planes? LOL!
                      > >
                      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
                      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
                      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
                      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
                      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Prometheus, You illustrated: I don t see how Klemp got it that the 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially, that man was
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Prometheus,

                        You illustrated:

                        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
                        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
                        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
                        that man was "placed here by colonists
                        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
                        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
                        Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
                        are expected to "serve."

                        That was a good point, I thought. Because
                        legends, myths, fables and folktales are part
                        of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not
                        in the beginning, they seep in over time when
                        people speculate about what they read, and /
                        or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo
                        (man-made) religion / history are a part of the
                        organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However
                        when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &
                        actually happened I believe people have every
                        right to challenge such allegations.

                        Here are some examples. The early manu-
                        scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The
                        Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later
                        1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books
                        by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.

                        These are examples about truth vs. fiction -
                        not because I absolutely know all the details -
                        but because the subject is "suspicious" and
                        /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.

                        Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal
                        Singh round about the mid 50s when the two
                        manuscripts were reportedly written.

                        In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his
                        0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.

                        In one of your past posts (I don't have the #
                        or date) you wrote:

                        "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on
                        his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came
                        back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second
                        was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."

                        I think that information was mentioned in Ford
                        Johnson's book, too.

                        Consider what Doug Marman gave back around
                        the year 2000:

                        ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but
                        did nothing with the book until he offered it to
                        Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues
                        With The Master around 1956, from the refer-
                        ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.
                        Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but
                        didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion
                        Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's
                        writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't
                        published until 1970."

                        [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]

                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

                        I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-
                        cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of
                        them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal
                        Singh.

                        Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal
                        Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in
                        Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson
                        wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"
                        by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.

                        =0
                        A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,
                        since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-
                        scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar
                        terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh
                        reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.
                        And it might possibly have been in the possession
                        of Eckankar for a number of years.

                        According to Kirpal Singh?

                        "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,
                        The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-
                        ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.
                        He changed that book before printing; where he men-
                        tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."

                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm

                        My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh
                        dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.
                        MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED
                        THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS
                        BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY
                        THAT NAME!

                        Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early
                        manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it
                        has the manuscript in its possession.

                        There has been controversy over when the name of
                        Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date
                        I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an
                        illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is
                        the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang
                        manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs
                        given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was
                        it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?
                        If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar
                        it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who
                        came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?

                        *************************************************************

                        Those were examples because I have mostly seen
                        the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't
                        have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.

                        If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,
                        that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs
                        does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would
                        have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to
                        the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.

                        I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.
                        One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And
                        in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.

                        Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.
                        (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The
                        Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in
                        Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may
                        have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into
                        that path in 1963. So ...?

                        Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to
                        have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's
                        Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the
                        name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

                        I have asked ab
                        out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.
                        Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-
                        Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-
                        ists. Even long-time members from the early days.

                        Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right
                        to have the truth.

                        I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.

                        Etznab


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!








                        Hello All,

                        I thought I'd bring this back for

                        another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas

                        Ever to mention the Jupiter and

                        Venus connection with the EK

                        Masters when speaking to seekers?

                        Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas

                        ever to mention the lifetime "service"

                        requirement to new seekers? No,

                        again! I wonder, why Not? Too

                        much Truth... they'd get spiritual

                        indigestion!!!



                        - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -



                        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

                        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING

                        1984 writes:



                        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,

                        The world is never without him, for the line

                        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

                        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

                        from JUPITER."



                        Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods

                        (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D

                        Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                        Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from

                        Clarion! Klemp even has this planet

                        mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                        "CLARION. A planet where higher

                        evolved Souls are living to help carry

                        on the work of GOD throughout the

                        universe."



                        Etznab wrote:



                        More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                        "Eckankar was brought here from Venus

                        by a little known race which is living in

                        Agam Des, and whom we know as the

                        Eshwar Khanewale [last two words

                        in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.

                        These beings are members of the Ancient

                        Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.

                        They attained their name, the god-eaters,

                        from the fact that they absorb cosmic

                        energies instead of assimilating plants

                        and other foods." [my brackets]



                        Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,

                        Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,

                        p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                        ******************************************



                        prometheus wrote:

                        >

                        Klemp is a scammer and his followers

                        are gullible New Age wannabes!

                        >

                        How can rational and intelligent people

                        believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

                        from orthodox religions that taught

                        similar fiction and myth. And, these

                        Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

                        New Age ones have complex dogmas

                        and glowing "spiritual" test
                        imonials

                        of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

                        Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

                        >

                        All religions rely upon the current

                        LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

                        the imaginations of his believers!

                        >

                        I'm still wondering how Klemp can say

                        that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

                        HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

                        when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                        "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

                        Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

                        through the worlds, through the Planes

                        and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

                        of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

                        At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

                        of matter--some of the newly formed

                        planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

                        THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

                        world of EARTH.



                        Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

                        formed the consciousness of man in

                        the flesh temple of the human body,

                        to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

                        and take up the burdens of karma until

                        at last, one day, each would be ready

                        to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                        that man was "placed here by colonists

                        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                        Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists

                        are expected to "serve."

                        >

                        Here's an interesting definition from

                        Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

                        >

                        "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

                        which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

                        of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

                        was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the

                        FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

                        the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

                        >

                        It's true that Twitchell was a professional

                        liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

                        stole the words and ideas of others without

                        giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

                        of spiritual experiences from chelas written

                        in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

                        use these as "inspiration" for his books that

                        he receives 50% royalties on!

                        >

                        Prometheus

                        >

                        ************************************************

                        ETZNAB WROTE:

                        Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

                        when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

                        mistranslated it to begin with.

                        >

                        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

                        all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

                        the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

                        years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

                        empire throughout the world. [....]"

                        >

                        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

                        Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

                        1986, p. 97 ]

                        >

                        0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

                        its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

                        crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

                        of years ago. [....]"

                        >

                        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

                        Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

                        >

                        It looks like someone got rid of that reference

                        to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took

                        until 1988!



                        prometheus wrote:

                        > >

                        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

                        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

                        > >

                        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

                        The world is never without him, for the line

                        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

                        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

                        from JUPITER."

                        > >

                        ME: WOW! JUPITER!

                        > >

                        When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

                        in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

                        the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

                        > >

                        People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

                        to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

                        JUPITER!"

                        > >

                        Where are the other RACES from?

                        > >

                        Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

                        I don't think sooooo!!!

                        > >

                        What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

                        from?

                        > >

                        Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

                        Far Away? That sounds like t
                        he makings for

                        another Klemp story! Yawn!

                        > >

                        Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

                        Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

                        Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

                        covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

                        > >

                        This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

                        question to the inner" works in Eckankar!

                        > >

                        Prometheus

                        > >

                        P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

                        just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

                        Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

                        too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

                        we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

                        aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

                        > >

                        Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

                        the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

                        of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

                        for his contradictions of information? Or, does

                        Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

                        and is more focused upon those Souls residing

                        on the Inner Planes? LOL!

                        > >

                        I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

                        sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

                        Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

                        it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

                        by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or something he heard / read? For some reason I thought
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell
                          got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or
                          something he heard / read?

                          For some reason I thought about Scientology. I then
                          searched for keywords Scientology & from Jupiter.

                          ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                          L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                          of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing" can
                          raise your abilities to the point where you "know" something
                          directly rather than having to discover it or learn it. He spoke
                          authoritatively about life in the solar system. He claimed that
                          Jupiter was inhabited by people who looked like Eskimos.
                          You can hear him say it at:

                          http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                          http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                          Coincidence?

                          I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                          certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                          believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                          writers for a time.

                          Etznab





                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: etznab@...
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:04 pm
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From
                          JUPITER!








                          Prometheus,



                          You illustrated:



                          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                          that man was "placed here by colonists

                          from JUPITER." This is20another dirty little

                          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                          are expected to "serve."



                          That was a good point, I thought. Because

                          legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                          of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                          in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                          people speculate about what they read, and /

                          or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                          (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                          organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                          when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                          actually happened I believe people have every

                          right to challenge such allegations.



                          Here are some examples. The early manu-

                          scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                          Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                          1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                          by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                          These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                          not because I absolutely know all the details -

                          but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                          /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                          Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                          Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                          manuscripts were reportedly written.



                          In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                          0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                          In one of your past posts (I don't have the #=0
                          D

                          or date) you wrote:



                          "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                          his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                          back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                          was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                          I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                          Johnson's book, too.



                          Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                          the year 2000:



                          ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                          did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                          Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                          With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                          ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                          Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                          didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                          Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                          writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                          published until 1970."



                          [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                          I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                          cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                          them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                          Singh.



                          Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                          Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                          Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                          wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                          by Rebazar T
                          arzs to Paul Twitchell.



                          =0

                          A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                          since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                          scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                          terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                          reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                          And it might possibly have been in the possession

                          of Eckankar for a number of years.



                          According to Kirpal Singh?



                          "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                          The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                          ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                          He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                          tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                          My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                          dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                          MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                          THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                          BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                          THAT NAME!



                          Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                          manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it

                          has the manuscript in its possession.



                          There has been controversy over when the name of

                          Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                          I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                          illustrated Rebazar Tarzs h
                          istory prior to that, where is

                          the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                          manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                          given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                          it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                          If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                          it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                          came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                          *************************************************************



                          Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                          the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                          have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                          If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                          that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                          does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                          have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                          the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                          I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                          One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                          in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                          Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                          (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                          Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                          Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                          have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                          that path in 1963. So ...?




                          Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                          have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                          Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                          name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                          I have asked ab

                          out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                          Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                          Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                          ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                          Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                          to have the truth.



                          I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                          Etznab



                          -----Original Message-----

                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                          Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm

                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!



                          Hello All,



                          I thought I'd bring this back for



                          another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas



                          Ever to mention the Jupiter and



                          Venus connection with the EK



                          Masters when speaking to seekers?



                          Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas



                          ever to mention the lifetime "service"



                          requirement to new seekers? No,



                          again! I wonder, why Not? Too



                          much Truth... they'd get spiritual



                          indigestion!!!



                          - Aryans Are Fr
                          om JUPITER! -



                          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING



                          1984 writes:



                          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,



                          The world is never without him, for the line



                          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                          from JUPITER."



                          Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods



                          (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D



                          Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



                          Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from



                          Clarion! Klemp even has this planet



                          mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



                          "CLARION. A planet where higher



                          evolved Souls are living to help carry



                          on the work of GOD throughout the



                          universe."



                          Etznab wrote:



                          More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



                          "Eckankar was brought here from Venus



                          by a little known race which is living in



                          Agam Des, and whom we know as the



                          Eshwar Khanewale [last two words



                          in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.



                          These beings are members of the Ancient



                          Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.



                          They attained their name, the god-eaters,



                          from the fact that they absorb cosmic



                          energies instead of assimilating plants



                          and other20foods." [my brackets]



                          Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,



                          Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,



                          p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



                          ******************************************



                          prometheus wrote:



                          >



                          Klemp is a scammer and his followers



                          are gullible New Age wannabes!



                          >



                          How can rational and intelligent people



                          believe in this crap! Most ECKists came



                          from orthodox religions that taught



                          similar fiction and myth. And, these



                          Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the



                          New Age ones have complex dogmas



                          and glowing "spiritual" test

                          imonials



                          of miracles, visitations by angels and/or



                          Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



                          >



                          All religions rely upon the current



                          LEADER's ability to control and manipulate



                          the imaginations of his believers!



                          >



                          I'm still wondering how Klemp can say



                          that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED



                          HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"



                          when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



                          "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL



                          Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD



                          through the worlds, through the Planes



                          and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds



                          =0
                          Aof the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.



                          At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds



                          of matter--some of the newly formed



                          planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and



                          THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little



                          world of EARTH.



                          Many CAME to the EARTH planet and



                          formed the consciousness of man in



                          the flesh temple of the human body,



                          to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,



                          and take up the burdens of karma until



                          at last, one day, each would be ready



                          to return to the heavenly home." [end]



                          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                          that man was "placed here by colonists



                          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little



                          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                          Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists



                          are expected to "serve."



                          >



                          Here's an interesting definition from



                          Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



                          >



                          "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE



                          which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN



                          of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM



                          was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the



                          FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of



                          the RACES OF
                          MAN upon EARTH."



                          >



                          It's true that Twitchell was a professional



                          liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit



                          stole the words and ideas of others without



                          giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories



                          of spiritual experiences from chelas written



                          in Initiate Reports and letters in order to



                          use these as "inspiration" for his books that



                          he receives 50% royalties on!



                          >



                          Prometheus



                          >



                          ************************************************



                          ETZNAB WROTE:



                          Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up



                          when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone



                          mistranslated it to begin with.



                          >



                          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and



                          all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under



                          the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of



                          years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the



                          empire throughout the world. [....]"



                          >



                          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                          Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,



                          1986, p. 97 ]



                          >



                          0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all



                          its colonial empire came about by gas po
                          ckets under the



                          crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands



                          of years ago. [....]"



                          >



                          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



                          Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]



                          >



                          It looks like someone got rid of that reference



                          to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took



                          until 1988!



                          prometheus wrote:



                          > >



                          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



                          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



                          > >



                          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.



                          The world is never without him, for the line



                          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



                          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



                          from JUPITER."



                          > >



                          ME: WOW! JUPITER!



                          > >



                          When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"



                          in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is



                          the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



                          > >



                          People in this Current ROOT RACE, according



                          to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from



                          JUPITER!"



                          > >



                          Where are the other RACES from?



                          > >



                          Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?



                          I don't think sooooo!!!
                          =0
                          A


                          > >



                          What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES



                          from?



                          > >



                          Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far



                          Far Away? That sounds like t

                          he makings for



                          another Klemp story! Yawn!



                          > >



                          Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that



                          Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi



                          Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was



                          covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



                          > >



                          This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your



                          question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



                          > >



                          Prometheus



                          > >



                          P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or



                          just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the



                          Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter



                          too, or were they from somewhere else? Did



                          we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we



                          aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



                          > >



                          Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All



                          the Universes (Klemp) have access to more



                          of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)



                          for his contradictions of information? Or, does



                          Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)


                          0A
                          and is more focused upon those Souls residing



                          on the Inner Planes? LOL!



                          > >



                          I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound



                          sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield



                          Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could



                          it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced



                          by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Etznab, At one time Twitchell was a high ranking member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron was his original source of compiled info on Jupiter. Thus, this
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Etznab,
                            At one time Twitchell was a high ranking
                            member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                            was his original source of "compiled" info
                            on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's
                            handed-down source since he tends to use
                            other people (usually dead) as inspiration
                            for his "EK wisdom."

                            As far as Marman goes... he speculates...
                            a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!

                            Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who
                            inspired him to take his piles of "research"
                            and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963
                            when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame
                            GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's
                            had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's
                            kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must
                            be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role
                            by thinking she'd helped people who were
                            desperate to believe in something more than
                            what they had with their former orthodox
                            religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and
                            other cult-like religions can say and do the
                            same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent
                            than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's
                            new buds. Gail should do the right thing and
                            jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could
                            even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and
                            post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or
                            Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to
                            clear her conscience and protect those Souls
                            whom she helped to delude.

                            BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say
                            that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang
                            manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.
                            Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/
                            written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,
                            a book of poetry?

                            Prometheus

                            Etznab wrote:
                            About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul
                            Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual
                            experience? or something he heard / read?

                            For some reason I thought about Scientology.
                            I then searched for keywords Scientology &
                            from Jupiter.

                            ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

                            L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
                            of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"
                            can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"
                            something directly rather than having to discover it
                            or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the
                            solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited
                            by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him
                            say it at:

                            http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

                            http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

                            Coincidence?

                            I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
                            certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
                            believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
                            writers for a time.

                            Etznab



                            Prometheus,
                            You illustrated:

                            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

                            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

                            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

                            that man was "placed here by colonists

                            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

                            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

                            Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

                            are expected to "serve."


                            That was a good point, I thought. Because

                            legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

                            of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

                            in the beginning, they seep in over time when

                            people speculate about what they read, and /

                            or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

                            (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

                            organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

                            when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

                            actually happened I believe people have every

                            right to challenge such allegations.


                            Here are some examples. The early manu-

                            scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

                            Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

                            1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

                            by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                            These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

                            not because I absolutely know all the details -

                            but because the subject is "suspicious" and

                            /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                            Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

                            Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

                            manuscripts were reportedly written.



                            In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

                            "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                            In one of your past posts (I don't have the #

                            or date) you wrote:



                            "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

                            his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

                            back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

                            was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                            I think that information was mentioned in Ford

                            Johnson's book, too.



                            Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

                            the year 2000:



                            ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

                            did nothing with the book until he offered it to

                            Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

                            With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

                            ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

                            Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

                            didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

                            Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

                            writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

                            published until 1970."



                            [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                            I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

                            cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

                            them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

                            Singh.



                            Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

                            Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

                            Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

                            wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

                            by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.


                            Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

                            since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

                            scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

                            terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

                            reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

                            And it might possibly have been in the possession

                            of Eckankar for a number of years.



                            According to Kirpal Singh?



                            "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

                            The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

                            ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

                            He changed that book before printing; where he men-

                            tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                            My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

                            dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

                            MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

                            THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

                            BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

                            THAT NAME!



                            Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

                            manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,

                            if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                            There has been controversy over when the name of

                            Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

                            I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

                            illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is

                            the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

                            manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

                            given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

                            it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

                            If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

                            it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

                            came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                            *************************************************************



                            Those were examples because I have mostly seen

                            the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

                            have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                            If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

                            that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

                            does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

                            have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

                            the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                            I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

                            One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

                            in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                            Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

                            (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

                            Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

                            Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

                            have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

                            that path in 1963. So ...?



                            Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

                            have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

                            Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

                            name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                            I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

                            Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

                            Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

                            ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                            Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

                            to have the truth.



                            I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                            Etznab
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Prometheus, I ve often wondered about Gail & Patti - ever since I started researching & posting as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was it 2005-2007? I think
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Prometheus,

                              I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                              ever since I started researching & posting
                              as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                              it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                              around there.

                              It's a big question mark, to me, about
                              whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                              with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                              for so many years? However, I don't think
                              Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                              mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                              she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                              believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                              she was not any longer active. Instead of
                              going into the details about this, my recoll-
                              ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                              the story in her own time, in her own way.

                              About how many books Paul Twitchell
                              finished before 1966, I think I see your
                              point.

                              Etznab


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06 pm
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                              JUPITER!








                              Hello Etznab,

                              At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                              member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                              was his original source of "compiled" info

                              on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                              handed-down source since he tends to use

                              other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                              for his "EK wisdom."



                              As far as Marman goes...
                              he speculates...

                              a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                              Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                              inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                              and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                              when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                              GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                              had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                              kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                              be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                              by thinking she'd helped people who were

                              desperate to believe in something more than

                              what they had with their former orthodox

                              religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                              other cult-like religions can say and do the

                              same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                              than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                              new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                              jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                              even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                              post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                              Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                              clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                              whom she helped to delude.



                              BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                              that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                              manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                              Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                              written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                              a book of poetry?
                              0D


                              Prometheus



                              Etznab wrote:

                              About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                              Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                              experience? or something he heard / read?



                              For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                              I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                              from Jupiter.



                              ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                              L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                              of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                              can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                              something directly rather than having to discover it

                              or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                              solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                              by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                              say it at:



                              http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                              http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                              Coincidence?



                              I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                              certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                              believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                              writers for a time.



                              Etznab



                              Prometheus,

                              You illustrated:



                              I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



                              5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



                              1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



                              that man was "placed here by colonists



                              from JUPITER." This is another dirty little




                              secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



                              Another dirty little secret is that ECKists



                              are expected to "serve."



                              That was a good point, I thought. Because



                              legends, myths, fables and folktales are part



                              of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not



                              in the beginning, they seep in over time when



                              people speculate about what they read, and /



                              or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo



                              (man-made) religion / history are a part of the



                              organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However



                              when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &



                              actually happened I believe people have every



                              right to challenge such allegations.



                              Here are some examples. The early manu-



                              scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The



                              Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later



                              1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books



                              by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



                              These are examples about truth vs. fiction -



                              not because I absolutely know all the details -



                              but because the subject is "suspicious" and



                              /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



                              Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal



                              Singh round about the mid 50s when the two



                              manuscripts were reportedly written.

                              0A

                              In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his



                              "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



                              In one of your past posts (I don't have the #



                              or date) you wrote:



                              "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on



                              his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came



                              back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second



                              was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



                              I think that information was mentioned in Ford



                              Johnson's book, too.



                              Consider what Doug Marman gave back around



                              the year 2000:



                              ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but



                              did nothing with the book until he offered it to



                              Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues



                              With The Master around 1956, from the refer-



                              ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.



                              Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but



                              didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion



                              Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's



                              writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't



                              published until 1970."



                              [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



                              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



                              I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-



                              cause Paul includes him in the two book
                              s. One of



                              them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal



                              Singh.



                              Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal



                              Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in



                              Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson



                              wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"



                              by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.



                              Although I don't absolutely know all the details,



                              since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-



                              scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar



                              terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh



                              reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.



                              And it might possibly have been in the possession



                              of Eckankar for a number of years.



                              According to Kirpal Singh?



                              "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,



                              The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-



                              ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.



                              He changed that book before printing; where he men-



                              tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



                              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



                              My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh



                              dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.



                              MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED



                              THE TIGER'S FAN
                              G MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS



                              BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY



                              THAT NAME!



                              Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early



                              manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,



                              if it has the manuscript in its possession.



                              There has been controversy over when the name of



                              Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date



                              I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an



                              illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is



                              the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang



                              manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs



                              given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was



                              it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?



                              If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar



                              it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who



                              came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



                              *************************************************************



                              Those were examples because I have mostly seen



                              the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't



                              have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



                              If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,



                              that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs



                              does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I wo
                              uld



                              have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to



                              the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



                              I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.



                              One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And



                              in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



                              Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.



                              (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The



                              Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in



                              Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may



                              have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into



                              that path in 1963. So ...?



                              Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to



                              have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's



                              Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the



                              name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



                              I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.



                              Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-



                              Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-



                              ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



                              Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right



                              to have the truth.



                              I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



                              Etznab








                              0D
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hi Etznab, I figured Patti had left EKankar since she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar Board the day after Klemp & his new Board went after Darwin. Joan
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 12, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Etznab,
                                I figured Patti had left EKankar since
                                she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar
                                Board the day after Klemp & his new Board
                                went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take
                                Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,
                                the same day as the resignation. Apparently
                                Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand
                                in the wings, and await, until opportunity
                                comes a knocking.

                                Prometheus


                                Prometheus,

                                I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                                ever since I started researching & posting
                                as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                                it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                                around there.

                                It's a big question mark, to me, about
                                whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                                with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                                for so many years? However, I don't think
                                Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                                mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                                she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                                believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                                she was not any longer active. Instead of
                                going into the details about this, my recoll-
                                ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                                the story in her own time, in her own way.

                                About how many books Paul Twitchell
                                finished before 1966, I think I see your
                                point.

                                Etznab


                                prometheus wrote:

                                Hello Etznab,

                                At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                                member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                                was his original source of "compiled" info

                                on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                                handed-down source since he tends to use

                                other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                                for his "EK wisdom."


                                As far as Marman goes... he speculates...

                                a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                                inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                                and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                                when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                                GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                                had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                                kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                                be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                                by thinking she'd helped people who were

                                desperate to believe in something more than

                                what they had with their former orthodox

                                religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                                other cult-like religions can say and do the

                                same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                                than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                                new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                                jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                                even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                                post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                                Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                                clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                                whom she helped to delude.



                                BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                                that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                                manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                                Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                                written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                                a book of poetry?



                                Prometheus



                                Etznab wrote:

                                About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                                Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                                experience? or something he heard / read?



                                For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                                I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                                from Jupiter.



                                ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                                L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                                of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                                can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                                something directly rather than having to discover it

                                or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                                solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                                by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                                say it at:



                                http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                                http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                                Coincidence?



                                I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                                certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                                believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                                writers for a time.



                                Etznab
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                Prometheus, I wasn t aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I had the impression she was removed. Here is why: Another interesting development in the August 7
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Prometheus,

                                  I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                                  had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                                  "Another interesting development in the August
                                  7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                                  of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                                  Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                                  of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                                  resolution, summarily removed from this position
                                  and told that

                                  ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                                  both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                                  ediately. [....]

                                  "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                                  ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                                  immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                                  current term of Secretary."

                                  [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                                  A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234] 

                                  Etznab

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56 pm
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                                  JUPITER!








                                  Hi Etznab,

                                  I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                                  she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                                  Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                                  went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                                  Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                                  the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                                  Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                                  in the win
                                  gs, and await, until opportunity

                                  comes a knocking.



                                  Prometheus



                                  Prometheus,



                                  I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                                  ever since I started researching & posting

                                  as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                                  it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                                  around there.



                                  It's a big question mark, to me, about

                                  whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                                  with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                                  for so many years? However, I don't think

                                  Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                                  mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                                  she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                                  believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                                  she was not any longer active. Instead of

                                  going into the details about this, my recoll-

                                  ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                                  the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                  About how many books Paul Twitchell

                                  finished before 1966, I think I see your

                                  point.



                                  Etznab



                                  prometheus wrote:



                                  Hello Etznab,



                                  At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                  member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                  was his original source of "compiled" info



                                  on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                  handed-down source since he tends to use



                                  other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                  for his "EK wisdom."

                                  0D

                                  As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                  a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                  Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                  inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                  and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                  when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                  GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                  had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                  kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                  be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                  by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                  desperate to believe in something more than



                                  what they had with their former orthodox



                                  religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                  other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                  same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                                  than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                  new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                  jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                  even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                  post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                  Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                  clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                  whom she helped to delude.



                                  BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                                  =0
                                  A
                                  that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                  manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                  Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                  written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                  a book of poetry?



                                  Prometheus



                                  Etznab wrote:



                                  About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul



                                  Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual



                                  experience? or something he heard / read?



                                  For some reason I thought about Scientology.



                                  I then searched for keywords Scientology &



                                  from Jupiter.



                                  ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                                  L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science



                                  of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"



                                  can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"



                                  something directly rather than having to discover it



                                  or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the



                                  solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited



                                  by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him



                                  say it at:



                                  http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                                  http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                                  Coincidence?



                                  I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and



                                  certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I



                                  believe Twitchell and Hubbard were
                                  both science fiction



                                  writers for a time.



                                  Etznab
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hi Etznab, If I could access the Truth-Seeker site I would show the minutes from the meeting where officers and trustees were appointed along with a long
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Etznab,
                                    If I could access the Truth-Seeker
                                    site I would show the minutes from
                                    the meeting where officers and trustees
                                    were appointed along with a long discussion
                                    of what to do about Darwin. Patti was
                                    appointed as Secretary during this very
                                    long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.
                                    A recess was taken and the meeting was
                                    to resume the very next day.

                                    However, Patti resigned the next day after
                                    having the night to think or dream about
                                    what was being done to Darwin by Klemp
                                    and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan
                                    documented the details differently, after
                                    Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"
                                    when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-
                                    up began early on. A "resolution" was simply
                                    done to officially accept Patti's resignation.
                                    Another motion and "vote" was made into
                                    a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty
                                    position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman
                                    to ask Patti how it went down, according to
                                    her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

                                    Prometheus
                                    p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather
                                    than take his word for what she has to say.


                                    etznab wrote:

                                    Prometheus,

                                    I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                                    had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                                    "Another interesting development in the August
                                    7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                                    of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                                    Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                                    of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                                    resolution, summarily removed from this position
                                    and told that

                                    ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                                    both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                                    ediately. [....]

                                    "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                                    ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                                    immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                                    current term of Secretary."

                                    [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                                    A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â

                                    Etznab

                                    Prometheus wrote:


                                    Hi Etznab,

                                    I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                                    she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                                    Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                                    went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                                    Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                                    the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                                    Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                                    in the wings, and await, until opportunity

                                    comes a knocking.



                                    Prometheus



                                    Prometheus,



                                    I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                                    ever since I started researching & posting

                                    as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                                    it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                                    around there.



                                    It's a big question mark, to me, about

                                    whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                                    with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                                    for so many years? However, I don't think

                                    Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                                    mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                                    she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                                    believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                                    she was not any longer active. Instead of

                                    going into the details about this, my recoll-

                                    ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                                    the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                    About how many books Paul Twitchell

                                    finished before 1966, I think I see your

                                    point.



                                    Etznab



                                    prometheus wrote:



                                    Hello Etznab,



                                    At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                    member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                    was his original source of "compiled" info



                                    on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                    handed-down source since he tends to use



                                    other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                    for his "EK wisdom."



                                    As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                    a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                    Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                    inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                    and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                    when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                    GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                    had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                    kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                    be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                    by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                    desperate to believe in something more than



                                    what they had with their former orthodox



                                    religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                    other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                    same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                                    than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                    new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                    jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                    even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                    post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                    Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                    clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                    whom she helped to delude.



                                    BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                                    =0
                                    A
                                    that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                    manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                    Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                    written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                    a book of poetry?



                                    Prometheus
                                  • etznab@aol.com
                                    Prometheus, Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this what I had read. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 16, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Prometheus,

                                      Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this
                                      what I had read.

                                      Etznab

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                                      Removed!








                                      Hi Etznab,

                                      If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                      site I would show the minutes from

                                      the meeting where officers and trustees

                                      were appointed along with a long discussion

                                      of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                      appointed as Secretary during this very

                                      long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                      A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                      to resume the very next day.



                                      However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                      having the night to think or dream about

                                      what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                      and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                      documented the details differently, after

                                      Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                      when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                      up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                      done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                                      Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                      a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                      position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                      to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                      her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                      =0
                                      APrometheus

                                      p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                      than take his word for what she has to say.



                                      etznab wrote:



                                      Prometheus,



                                      I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                                      had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                                      "Another interesting development in the August

                                      7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                                      of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                                      Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                                      of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                                      resolution, summarily removed from this position

                                      and told that



                                      ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                                      both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                                      ediately. [....]



                                      "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                                      ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                                      immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                                      current term of Secretary."



                                      [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                                      A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                                      Etznab



                                      Prometheus wrote:



                                      Hi Etznab,



                                      I figured Patti had left EKankar since



                                      she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                                      Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                                      went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                                      Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                                      the same day as th
                                      e resignation. Apparently



                                      Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                                      in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                                      comes a knocking.



                                      Prometheus



                                      Prometheus,



                                      I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                                      ever since I started researching & posting



                                      as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                                      it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                                      around there.



                                      It's a big question mark, to me, about



                                      whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                                      with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                                      for so many years? However, I don't think



                                      Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                                      mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                                      she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                                      believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                                      she was not any longer active. Instead of



                                      going into the details about this, my recoll-



                                      ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                                      the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                      About how many books Paul Twitchell



                                      finished before 1966, I think I see your



                                      point.



                                      Etznab



                                      prometheus wrote:



                                      Hello Etznab,



                                      At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                      member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                                      0A


                                      was his original source of "compiled" info



                                      on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                      handed-down source since he tends to use



                                      other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                      for his "EK wisdom."



                                      As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                      a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                      Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                      inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                      and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                      when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                      GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                      had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                      kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                      be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                      by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                      desperate to believe in something more than



                                      what they had with their former orthodox



                                      religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                      other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                      same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                                      than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                      new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                      jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                      even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                      post so
                                      me tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                      Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                      clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                      whom she helped to delude.



                                      BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                                      =0

                                      A

                                      that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                      manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                      Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                      written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                      a book of poetry?



                                      Prometheus
                                    • etznab@aol.com
                                      Something else for this thread. From The Truth-Seeker site. It doesn t have to do with the August 7th, 1983 meeting. Not unless that was the time when Patti
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 27, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Something else for this thread. From The
                                        Truth-Seeker site.

                                        It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                        1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                        time when Patti became not active. My
                                        guess was it refers to some time later.

                                        [....]

                                        A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                        an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                        Freeman

                                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                        I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                        Doug's response:

                                        "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                        fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                        not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                        rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                        http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                        I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                        a response, but I assume it was February
                                        2004. The 16th?

                                        Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                        Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                        until days later, but I think the link where he
                                        did respond is currently not working.

                                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                        Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                        guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                        the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                        Forum link.

                                        There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                        on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                        the present time.

                                        At any rate, according to D
                                        oug (apparently)
                                        Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                        at least.

                                        I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                        or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                        terminated or resigned from her position of
                                        Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                        it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                        that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                        future wife.

                                        Etznab





                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                                        Removed!








                                        Hi Etznab,

                                        If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                        site I would show the minutes from

                                        the meeting where officers and trustees

                                        were appointed along with a long discussion

                                        of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                        appointed as Secretary during this very

                                        long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                        A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                        to resume the very next day.



                                        However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                        having the night to think or dream about

                                        what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                        and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                        documented the details differently, after

                                        Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                        when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                        up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                        done to officiall
                                        y accept Patti's resignation.

                                        Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                        a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                        position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                        to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                        her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                        Prometheus

                                        p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                        than take his word for what she has to say.



                                        etznab wrote:



                                        Prometheus,



                                        I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                                        had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                                        "Another interesting development in the August

                                        7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                                        of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                                        Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                                        of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                                        resolution, summarily removed from this position

                                        and told that



                                        ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                                        both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                                        ediately. [....]



                                        "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                                        ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                                        immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                                        current term of Secretary."



                                        [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                                        A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                                        Etznab



                                        Prometheus wrote:



                                        Hi Etznab,



                                        I
                                        figured Patti had left EKankar since



                                        she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                                        Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                                        went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                                        Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                                        the same day as the resignation. Apparently



                                        Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                                        in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                                        comes a knocking.



                                        Prometheus



                                        Prometheus,



                                        I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                                        ever since I started researching & posting



                                        as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                                        it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                                        around there.



                                        It's a big question mark, to me, about



                                        whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                                        with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                                        for so many years? However, I don't think



                                        Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                                        mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                                        she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                                        believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                                        she was not any longer active. Instead of



                                        going into the details about this, my recoll-



                                        ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                                        the story in her own time, in her own way.



                                        About how=2
                                        0many books Paul Twitchell



                                        finished before 1966, I think I see your



                                        point.



                                        Etznab



                                        prometheus wrote:



                                        Hello Etznab,



                                        At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                                        member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                                        was his original source of "compiled" info



                                        on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                                        handed-down source since he tends to use



                                        other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                                        for his "EK wisdom."



                                        As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                                        a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                                        Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                                        inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                                        and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                                        when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                                        GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                                        had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                                        kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                                        be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                                        by thinking she'd helped people who were



                                        desperate to believe in something more than



                                        what they had with their former orthodox



                                        religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                                        other cult-like religions can say and do the



                                        same. Therefore, Gai
                                        l is more the KAL agent



                                        than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                                        new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                                        jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                                        even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                                        post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                                        Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                                        clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                                        whom she helped to delude.



                                        BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                                        =0

                                        A

                                        that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                                        manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                                        Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                                        written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                                        a book of poetry?



                                        Prometheus
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of figured that Patti wasn t active in ECKankar since she was talking so highly about Ram Dass recently. And, since she
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 2 1:02 PM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of
                                          figured that Patti wasn't active in ECKankar
                                          since she was talking so highly about Ram
                                          Dass recently. And, since she hasn't kept
                                          her EK Membership current, this means
                                          that her consciousness is now around
                                          that of a current 2nd Initiate! Wow! From
                                          8th to 2nd just because of a few bucks
                                          ($$$)! Actually, would a real spiritual
                                          "path" charge money to maintain one's
                                          (Soul's) inner plane level of consciousness?
                                          Well, yes! Because all of this (religions, etc.)
                                          is of the physical and Not the spiritual.
                                          That's why they sell books and other
                                          materials and require "requested" donations!
                                          The only "free lunch" (freedom) comes
                                          when Soul eliminates the middleman!

                                          Prometheus


                                          Etznab wrote:
                                          Something else for this thread. From The
                                          Truth-Seeker site.

                                          It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                                          1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                                          time when Patti became not active. My
                                          guess was it refers to some time later.

                                          [....]

                                          A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                                          an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                                          Freeman

                                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                          I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                                          Doug's response:

                                          "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                                          fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                                          not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                                          rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                                          http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                                          I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                                          a response, but I assume it was February
                                          2004. The 16th?

                                          Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                          Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                                          until days later, but I think the link where he
                                          did respond is currently not working.

                                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                                          Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                                          guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                                          the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                                          Forum link.

                                          There are a number of links (more than a few)
                                          on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                                          the present time.

                                          At any rate, according to Doug (apparently)
                                          Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                                          at least.

                                          I don't know when Patti became not active,
                                          or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                                          terminated or resigned from her position of
                                          Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                                          it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                                          that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                                          future wife.

                                          Etznab



                                          Hi Etznab,

                                          If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                                          site I would show the minutes from

                                          the meeting where officers and trustees

                                          were appointed along with a long discussion

                                          of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                                          appointed as Secretary during this very

                                          long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                                          A recess was taken and the meeting was

                                          to resume the very next day.



                                          However, Patti resigned the next day after

                                          having the night to think or dream about

                                          what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                                          and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                                          documented the details differently, after

                                          Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                                          when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                                          up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                                          done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                                          Another motion and "vote" was made into

                                          a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                                          position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                                          to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                                          her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                                          Prometheus

                                          p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                                          than take his word for what she has to say.
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