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Re: PT's "Rebazar" is Kirpal Singh!

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  • prometheus_973
    Here s more Kirpal information for ECKists to research! Get out your EK Lexicons to look up the definitions! SPIRITUAL ELIXIR...
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 6, 2008
      Here's more Kirpal information for ECKists to research!
      Get out your EK Lexicons to look up the definitions!



      prometheus wrote:
      > Hello All,
      > This is just one item from:
      > http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gemsq.htm#Daily
      > >
      > BTW: Notice that Twitchell changed the Virtue of Chastity
      > which is the true opposite to the Passion of Lust! This is
      > why it's so hard to remember the EK version (substitute)
      > for this virture. And, notice that neither PT or Klemp promote
      > the Vegan life style! And, Kirpal promotes keeping a Diary!
      > >
      > These are questions posed to Sri Kirpal Singh by his chelas.
      > Notice his straightforward answers! Klemp could never have
      > this kind of live Dialogues with the Master because HK's too
      > ego sensitive and because Klemp's of a much lower caliper of
      > Master than Kirpal was! I'd say Klemp is on the same level as
      > a country preacher! Does this stuff sound like Eckankar dogma
      > and what Twit wrote? You decide!
      > >
      > Remember too that Twitchell was in contact with Kirpal in
      > 1966 concerning PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript. Klemp
      > has confirmed this fact on Eckankar.org. Kirpal even talks of
      > Twitchell here, but doesn't mention him by name.
      > >
      > #################################################
      > Evening Darshan, September 11, 1970
      > from "The Light of Kirpal"
      > >
      > [Questioner]: Do some of your initiates get to the stage, maybe
      > after several years, when they say, "I can't stand this any longer.
      > I've got to eat meat. I've got to violate the chastity regulation. I've
      > got to forget about keeping the diary," and then they take off and
      > go someplace else?
      > >
      > [Master]: The point is, if this happens, they are not really hungry
      > for something higher. They want only this life, not the other life.
      > That's all. They had something; they did not live up to it and, moreover,
      > they did not taste the sweet elixir of being in contact with the Absolute.
      > Sometimes it's because of society. Sometimes it's because they don't
      > keep their diaries. That is why all these things come up. Remember,
      > that is why such-like people never remain in contact.
      > >
      > [Q]: Sometimes I would imagine there is such terrible pressure from
      > family members, that satsangis give in.
      > >
      > [M]: I tell you. I was born in a family of meat-eaters. As a child, I did
      > not partake of it. Nobody can force you. One may refuse. I can love you
      > but it is not necessary to eat what you eat. These are limited excuses,
      > you know. Somebody came to India who said, "When any food is offered,
      > it should not be refused - in the Bible it says so." So he cannot refuse
      > anybody's offer of anything? They have a right to poison you? Good things
      > you may accept. Otherwise politely you say, "No." If somebody offers you
      > poison, would you accept it? It's really not poison, but it affects you. These
      > are only lame excuses for not refusing. If you live for some time in contact
      > with higher spirituality, then naturally the mind comes under control. Now
      > the mind does not want to give up outer enjoyments. When you enjoy
      > inner bliss, how can you return? In the beginning at least something has
      > to be done regularly.
      > >
      > [Q]: So it's a matter, I suppose, of not wishing to submit to the initial
      > discipline that's required.
      > >
      > [M]: That is what is strictly required, I tell you. In the old days,
      > demonstrations of these gifts were never given to people at large.
      > Only those who lived at the Master's feet for years, lived up to what
      > He wanted, only when they were ready, were given something. Now
      > the times have changed. Who can live with Master for years? So something
      > is given and they are asked to maintain it by self-introspection, by
      > regular devotion of time.
      > >
      > [Q]: There are many, many people, of course mostly young men, who
      > will spend hours training and preparing themselves for athletic contests.
      > In a sense, this is a similar kind of training, isn't it?
      > >
      > [M]: More lucrative. Such-like profit which will never be lost. "Lay up
      > for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth
      > corrupt." The main thing is, we have to leave the body. How do you
      > stand? What's your fate? Two things happen at death: you are to leave
      > the body, and you must know where to go. Is it not proper that we should
      > be fed now and prepare?
      > >
      > [Q]: But so many people these days seem to have talked themselves
      > into the idea that there is no further fate, that there's just a bunch
      > of nothingness that's going to assail them.
      > >
      > [M]: That's all right. When sulphuric acid is put on copper filings, they
      > will bubble out and disappear. There's no consciousness there. Energy
      > is there, of course. A train is run by an engine. No consciousness is in
      > the engine. You are a man, you are conscious. But after leaving the body,
      > there is a very important question - we should know what is what. As
      > a man we can do this, and in no other form of creation. Now you have
      > come here. You have seen this place. You have got some guide here.
      > You will come very confidently.
      > >
      > [Q]: There's a great feeling of peace here.
      > >
      > [M]: Yes, yet there's more peace There. All glory and beauty lie within
      > you. Now you don't want to leave these outward enjoyments. Once we
      > have some little experience of that inner bliss, we won't leave it, you see?
      > >
      > [Q]: So it's keeping in training until that experience comes through?
      > It may be keeping in training for fifteen years.
      > >
      > [M]: What do these people want? They get some demonstration
      > of it. What is that? It may not be a lot. It is just a start, but they
      > get some demonstration. It is a special gift. Others who devote
      > hours and hours and hours to the outward performances don't
      > get anything. They pray, they cry, they sit down, and have their
      > candle before them; it is all darkness within. The main thing is
      > you have to leave the body. Who are you? Where are you? Where
      > do you go? How does this body work? I think these are very vital
      > questions, most vital, which concern our own self. The Hindu
      > scriptures tell us that when the soul leaves the body, one feels
      > the pain as if bitten by a thousand scorpions.
      > >
      > [Q]: I notice that it says that, and yet there are some reports
      > that many people die peacefully, apparently without pain.
      > >
      > [M]: I tell you that may be from heart failure; if all their thoughts
      > - desires - remain unfulfilled, they go on circling; their souls grovel
      > around the earth. If a soul leaving the body at the time of death still
      > wants something or is attached to somebody but cannot have it,
      > he grovels around the world.
      > >
      > [Q]: I know one relative, for example, who said just as she was
      > about to die, "I see Jesus here." And apparently she died in peace.
      > >
      > [M]: I tell you, that's due to a reaction of the past; but every man has
      > not the same story behind him. She might be devoted to Jesus and be
      > of good character. But at that time, when past actions are so near, the
      > end comes only as a result of the whole life's essence. There are various
      > cases you'll find.
      > >
      > [Q]: So conceivably she wasn't in so much pain because she had devoted
      > her life in that direction?
      > >
      > [M]: Yes.
      > >
      > [Q]: Then there are the reports of people who have made some of
      > these astral trips and they say when they go into the astral there's
      > no pain leaving the body.
      > >
      > [M]: When they have learnt to leave that body, not before. To leave the
      > body is the first question. When you are in the habit of coming and
      > going daily, death is no bugbear. If you're coming from a hotter to a
      > cooler place, then?
      > >
      > [Q]: In other words, if you've learned how to do it, then the pain isn't there?
      > >
      > [M]: No. And further, we should know where we are going. After all,
      > there are worlds beyond. Because of our backgrounds too, we have
      > got something which we are now earning.
      > >
      > [Q]: Well, the departure at death is a different departure than, say,
      > a departure for an astral flight. The departure at death goes through
      > a different door with Kal waiting there to gobble you up, whereas he
      > doesn't wait to gobble you up when you go out for an astral flight.
      > >
      > [M]: Astral flight - that's just hovering around the world. Quite near
      > the earth, not beyond. I went to London. There was a famous man
      > there. He charged five pounds to have astral people talk through him.
      > So some friends of mine said, "Let us go and see." The whole room
      > was dark, pitch dark. We sat down. Nothing happened. There was very
      > much acting and posing going on. He'd speak like a child, and strain
      > himself: (The Master imitates the fake trembly voice of the medium)
      > "The atmosphere is not favorable tonight - I cannot come." You see?
      > It was his own voice. A man can train himself to talk that way in a dark
      > room. There's fraud outside; I'm afraid there's a hundred times more black
      > marketing inside. Those people are acting and posing. That's why people
      > have lost faith in this work.
      > >
      > [Q]: Too much fakery and commercialism?
      > ******Here Kirpal talks of Twitchell******
      > [M]: Yes, yes. Too much propaganda. I tell you, one American was
      > initiated by me - I've got the initiation report in his own handwriting.
      > Then he wrote to me, "The Master's Form appears to me inside."
      > That Form used to speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that
      > dictation was put into a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963.
      > Then later on he started a new religion.
      > >
      > [Q]: Yes. I've heard of him.
      > >
      > [M]: Later he sent me another letter, "Return my book." That
      > is what such - like people will do. They had some little thing,
      > and got stuck fast there. Now he's carrying on propaganda.
      > He says he was never initiated by me. He was initiated in 1955.
      > Some people get stuck fast on the way. This little ego is very
      > difficult to get rid of unless there's some kind of protection.
      > This is a living example. I need not mention his name.
      > >
      > [Q]: I don't think he mentions Your name either.
      > >
      > [M]: I don't think he would. I don't like to say things about anyone.
      > If any man does well, all right. I returned the book. That was dictated
      > by me, and that's all right. He changed that book before printing; where
      > he mentioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name. So
      > such is the fate of these people. People are fed up with these masters,
      > gurus, and sadhus. Why? Only for this reason. I told you there is black
      > marketing outside but hundreds and thousands times more black
      > marketing inside.
      > >
      > [Q]: Do You ever feel at times that You would just like to stay here
      > at Your home in the foothills of the Himalaya Mountains and not issue
      > forth again to the hustle and the bustle of Delhi and other parts of the
      > world?
      > >
      > [M]: I'm bound, you see. I am directed what to do. I am a mere puppet.
      > There is no question of my will now. That's all I can say. Even in the
      > busiest of times, I've not planned first.
      > >
      > [Q]: The karma of most people is already laid out. Is it possible
      > for a Master, however, to say that, "All right, point one and point
      > three of that karma will be interchanged. " Can He do that?
      > >
      > [M]: What do you mean?
      > >
      > [Q]: Well, I mean if we come down here with a certain amount of
      > Pralabdh Karma that has to be paid off, is there necessarily any
      > order that it has to follow in being paid off? Can a Master say,
      > "Well, I'm going to hold back on this portion of your karma and
      > you won't have to pay it off until you're sixty-seven years old?
      > >
      > [M]: In one's own case or in the case of others?
      > >
      > [Q]: In the case of others. In the case of His initiates.
      > >
      > [M]: I tell you, the Master is to wind up all reactions to the best
      > He can. The initiate prays, "Oh God, I pray I should go to Your
      > Home forever, that I should not return." So He's working to wind
      > up all actions and reactions. Most of them are paid off in dreams,
      > and like that their severity is polished down to the minimum possible.
      > Whatever reactions cannot be set aside, you've got to pass through,
      > but with a little help on the side. Generally in the life of an initiate,
      > he'll find many changes in his life. His life history according to
      > astrology does not stand true. Those who have transcended the
      > starry skies are under the control of One Who goes beyond those
      > planes; there astrology does not stand true - things are changed.
      > Many things are omitted, sometimes some things are delayed,
      > some things are minimized.
      > >
      > [Q]: You would not advise people to pay too much attention to
      > astrology then?
      > >
      > [M]: Those things won't stand true always. Many things are cut
      > down, eliminated.
      > >
      > [Q]: Is it at least a basis by which one can judge someone's character?
      > >
      > [M]: By face you mean, or by writing? After all, stars have some effect,
      > some effect. I'm only speaking of the destiny of those under the custody
      > of Someone Who goes higher than that.
      > >
      > [Q]: Actually, I suppose, I feel a little embarrassed at having sunk to
      > this low subject when we were talking about higher matters. Is there
      > something in this area here in the Himalaya Mountains that makes
      > for better meditations? Or is it purely the presence of the Master?
      > >
      > [M]: The presence of the Master, of course, is of great help in that.
      > Solitude also goes to help - any atmosphere which is not poisoned
      > by the thoughts of worldly people. Even Christ used to run away to
      > the mountains, to the wilderness.
      > >
      > [Q]: Let's see. When Christ was driven to the wilderness He was taken
      > up on the mountain and told, "You can have all of this if You'll just bow
      > down." He said, "Get thee behind me."
      > >
      > [M]: Yes, it also happened to Guru Nanak. It happened with others,
      > too.
      > >
      > [Q]: This temptation then actually occurs at a certain place on the
      > inner planes?
      > >
      > [M]: Yes, in meditation. I need not mention by the way, the Negative
      > Power tells me all that is going on in the world; everywhere you see
      > trouble nowadays. Why are there troubles? He says, "I am bound to
      > do it. After all, this work has been given to me. Those who are not
      > good, they must have punishment. So You remove (souls) from this
      > place, but this I won't quit. My work has been allotted to me to carry on."
      > >
      > [Q]: Is the Negative Power an actual person?
      > >
      > [M]: No. That very Power is no personality question. Just the power
      > that is going out is called Negative Power. What is going in, That is
      > called the Christ Power, God Power, Master Power going into expression.
      > >
      > [Q]: But does the Negative Power on the inner planes ever take the
      > form of something that might took like a person to us?
      > >
      > [M]: Yes, it materializes but it has no special form. There is no
      > special form, of course. But he is a very honest judge, very honest
      > judge. One thing, he won't let anybody go out of his control, out
      > of his pale. He'll give everything to you, but not let you go out of his
      > control.
      > >
      > [Q]: How much will he fight to keep that from happening?
      > >
      > [M]: He'll fight up to the third plane. Beyond that he'll cry, "Oh, my
      > man is gone."
      > >
      > [Q]: He does not lose very many, does he?
      > >
      > [M]: Yes, of course, there are many, not innumerable, but many,
      > you can say.
      > >
      > [Q]: Hopefully he'll lose us?
      > >
      > [M]: Yes, he'll cry. Not will cry, but he cried because of those who
      > got out of his power.
      > >
      > [Q]: Was that story that's told about Kal a true one, that he told Sat
      > Purush that he couldn't be happy up there and wanted his own realm?
      > >
      > [M]: That is a way of expression. After all, this power has been
      > given by Whom? Suppose I give you now one example. There is
      > a king. He appoints a commander-in-chief. He's the appointing
      > authority. And he's also the appointing authority of a viceroy.
      > But their functions are different. The commander-in-chief never
      > says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." He says, "I order
      > you." Because he fully knows that power has been given to him
      > from the higher power. He has so many colonels and majors.
      > They get a very handsome salary and many concessions but he
      > won't let those go out of his control. He'll haul them up, court
      > martial them. When the city is in trouble it is handed over to
      > the military. It punishes some men and others are set to put the
      > condition of the town in order. But the viceroy never says, "I say;"
      > he says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." All these avatars:
      > Lord Krishna, Rama, and others, their duty is a different one.
      > They come to punish the wicked, help those who are righteous
      > and set the world in order. Saints' ways are different. They don't
      > punish anyone; They seek to bring them around, you see. Their
      > work is just to give them contact with God and let them go back
      > to the Father's Home, not to come back as a prisoner. They might
      > come back as a teacher. That's the difference. They depopulate
      > the world. The avatar, you see, keeps the world in order, does
      > not let the population grow less.
      > >
      > [Q]: Does each Saint have a quota of souls that He is to bring
      > back to Sat Purush?
      > >
      > [M]: A limited amount, of course. Each Saint has His own work to
      > do. The Power is the same, but Their functions are different. Each
      > has His own duty; He does it and goes Home.
      > >
      > [Q]: That figure that always comes up from the Bible is that
      > a hundred and forty-four thousand are going to be saved.
      > Presumably that was true around the year one A.D.?
      > >
      > [M]: How many? That's only for each Saint, you see. Each
      > Saint has His day. What did Christ say? Do you remember?
      > "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
      > >
      > [Q]: I think that may have been lost in translation in some
      > editions of the Bible, though.
      > >
      > [M]: No. It still stands.
      > >
      > [Q]: Is it there, "As long as I am in the world?"
      > >
      > [M]: Yes. Strange enough the Christians themselves don't
      > know the Bible. I'm not quoting from my own. Read St. John,
      > I think it is the ninth chapter, verse five. Of course, that's
      > true. Then He said, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee
      > till the end of the world." Whom He took under His custody,
      > He won't leave. He's responsible for initiates until they reach
      > the true Home of the Father.
      > >
      > [Q]: "Till the end of the world," how should that be translated?
      > >
      > [M]: That means until that soul reaches the Father's Home.
      > >
      > [Q]: While we're talking about things out of the Bible, You
      > recall the story, of course, about the rich young man who
      > came to Jesus and said, "Lord, how can I be saved?"
      > Jesus looked at him and said, "Give away all that thou hast
      > and come follow me, "and the young man went away sorrowing
      > for he had a lot of possessions and then Jesus turned and said,
      > 'It's going to be easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye
      > than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." Is that valid?
      > >
      > [M]: It means the same thing. Those who are attached so much
      > to worldly things, how can they go back to God? They won't even
      > want to hear about leaving this world. When they leave it, they will
      > be hovering around the world.
      > >
      > [Q]: Is it possible to have possessions of this world without
      > being attached to them?
      > >
      > [M]: Yes, surely. I think you can be attached to only one,
      > not many. You go where you are attached. What is your
      > ruling passion in life? If you have got a ruling passion for
      > the world, you will come back. A man who is so much given
      > up to the worldly things and enjoyments, naturally cannot go -
      > it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle rather
      > than for a rich man to get into Heaven. You are not to think
      > of the body you are about to leave - how can one who is given
      > up to all attachments leave?
      > >
      > [Q]: But it wouldn't be possible to just sit back and wait
      > for an income to come in. I mean put it in a bank and wait
      > for interest to come and then devote all your time to spirituality
      > and let the income maintain you.
      > >
      > [M]: This is one thing, of course, but suppose the bank fails?
      > Put it in the lap of God. What happened in Panama when I went
      > last time? I gave my passport to the Pan American Company to
      > get a visa for South America. The Panamanians were fighting with
      > the Americans at the time - the very day I arrived the building was
      > burned down and my passport also got burnt. You see? I could not
      > go. So suppose the bank fails! You still have to leave the body;
      > maybe now or in ten years or twenty years; you may go to sleep
      > tonight and never rise.
      > >
      > [Q]: Well, would you advise everybody to sell everything or give
      > away everything they have and come and follow You?
      > >
      > [M]: I advise, "Live by the sweat of your brow," by honest earnings.
      > Maintain your families with whom God has united you. It is the
      > flowing pen of God which has brought you together. This is one
      > thing; and never sow more seeds to be sprouted forth again.
      > Your ruling passion, your ruling attachment, should be with God.
      > Further, man should live not for his own self but for others.
      > Animals do live for themselves. They fight others with their horns
      > to save their children. If man does the same, where's his superiority?
      > Man is the ruling power, you see; the highest in all creation, he
      > has just to support the younger brothers, animals, birds, reptiles;
      > they are all members of the family of God. They are younger brothers.
      > >
      > [Q]: We haven't been doing very well by them.
      > >
      > [M]: That is what I say. We are the heads. The head of the family
      > should look after the welfare of all, and we go and eat them. It's
      > not common sense. I love you and eat your children. We say we
      > love God; all this creation is His. Here we have got cobras. If you
      > have love for them, love radiates. They also have some sense, you
      > see. "Be wise as serpents," Christ said. So our thoughts react, they
      > use self-defense against us; attack. It so happened at Delhi,
      > a Satsang had just started and a cobra came. There were some
      > two or three hundred people sitting. This cobra came just in front
      > of me and sat like that. To shoot this cobra wouldn't help. The
      > talk was going on. He was just looking at me for more than an
      > hour and a half. When the talk was over, he slipped away. They
      > said, "We should kill him!" But why? He did not harm anyone.
      > We are man, you see. Great is man. They're all our children.
      > It is you who have spoiled the children. All nature is beautiful
      > except when tormented by the hand of man.
      > >
      > [Q]: And man will have to pay for this?
      > >
      > [M]: Reactions. Reactions. You should love them. Generally
      > in the case of serpents, they don't harm any child. Sometimes
      > a child takes a snake in his mouth and it does not harm him.
      > >
      > [Q]: Is there any chance that when you kill a snake you might
      > be killing an old mother-in-law from a previous reincarnation?
      > >
      > [M]: May or may not be, who knows? But serpents are only those
      > who are very greedy people; those who were hoarding money.
      > I tell you one man came here and he killed a female cobra that
      > lived here. The male cobra came here for months to seek out
      > that man. But he was never here. They're very smart. We have
      > a glorious world but we have spoiled it by our own thoughts.
      > >
      > [Q]: In a statement You made this afternoon, I still am not exactly
      > certain what You meant when You said that it was harder to become
      > a man than to see God.
      > >
      > [M]: It is easier to meet God but it is harder to make a man.
      > So it should be: man first, and then Him.
      > >
      > [Q]: Well, I think if you see God you would automatically
      > have all these karmas wiped out and become a perfect man.
      > >
      > [M]: You're right, but what I mean is, to have an ideal man
      > is very difficult. To find God is not. That takes time - to make
      > a man takes time. The time factor is a necessity. It is not
      > done in one day.
      > >
      > [Q]: But if you see God, what do you care about becoming
      > a perfect man? Why do you care?
      > >
      > [M]: You get a glimpse of It; to get a glimpse of It is something
      > else. You see the sun for a while but if you are absorbed in the
      > sun, then?
      > >
      > [Q]: But only the perfect man can continue to see God?
      > >
      > [M]: Only the perfect man continually sees God, that's right.
      > That means that righteousness is necessary. Righteousness:
      > right thoughts, right words, right deeds. That is why this
      > diary is kept until we are perfect. Man should change inside,
      > not outside. Chastity of thought, word, and deed. That's the
      > first thing required. The second thing is perseverance. These
      > two things are required.
      > >
      > [Q]: Is the Master Power going to stop this explosion from
      > coming that seems so inevitable?
      > >
      > [M]: Many will be saved who will turn their faces to Him.
      > That's all I can say. The only thing is, we say something
      > but mean something else. That's the trouble. If the
      > governments really want peace, they should have an
      > attitude of live and let others live. Make their countries
      > so advanced and peace giving that everyone would want
      > to come over there. Each government should make their
      > country into a blooming garden - let everyone come and
      > enjoy and help others bring their gardens into a blooming
      > state. That should be the attitude.
      > >
      > [Q]: You're painting a very dismal state of affairs tonight.
      > Can't You offer us any hope?
      > >
      > [M]: I have said - those who turn their faces to Him will be
      > saved. There's hope. I'm talking about the general state of
      > affairs. The tendency is to remain and enjoy; headlong
      > down they are going. They speak of peace, they speak
      > of peace - lip service, but they have turned away. There's
      > trouble going on everywhere. Right understanding is required.
      > This is what the Masters did in the past. They went out
      > to give right understanding to the government and wake
      > up. Anyhow, it is past the hands of the son of man - that
      > much is sure. But there's awakening also and there's a good
      > side. There are conferences all meeting together; and now
      > the trend is to unite all nations.
      > >
      > {END}
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