Re: PT's "Rebazar" is Kirpal Singh!
- Here's more Kirpal information for ECKists to research!
Get out your EK Lexicons to look up the definitions!
> Hello All,
> This is just one item from:
> BTW: Notice that Twitchell changed the Virtue of Chastity
> which is the true opposite to the Passion of Lust! This is
> why it's so hard to remember the EK version (substitute)
> for this virture. And, notice that neither PT or Klemp promote
> the Vegan life style! And, Kirpal promotes keeping a Diary!
> These are questions posed to Sri Kirpal Singh by his chelas.
> Notice his straightforward answers! Klemp could never have
> this kind of live Dialogues with the Master because HK's too
> ego sensitive and because Klemp's of a much lower caliper of
> Master than Kirpal was! I'd say Klemp is on the same level as
> a country preacher! Does this stuff sound like Eckankar dogma
> and what Twit wrote? You decide!
> Remember too that Twitchell was in contact with Kirpal in
> 1966 concerning PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript. Klemp
> has confirmed this fact on Eckankar.org. Kirpal even talks of
> Twitchell here, but doesn't mention him by name.
> WHO ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU GOING?
> Evening Darshan, September 11, 1970
> from "The Light of Kirpal"
> [Questioner]: Do some of your initiates get to the stage, maybe
> after several years, when they say, "I can't stand this any longer.
> I've got to eat meat. I've got to violate the chastity regulation. I've
> got to forget about keeping the diary," and then they take off and
> go someplace else?
> [Master]: The point is, if this happens, they are not really hungry
> for something higher. They want only this life, not the other life.
> That's all. They had something; they did not live up to it and, moreover,
> they did not taste the sweet elixir of being in contact with the Absolute.
> Sometimes it's because of society. Sometimes it's because they don't
> keep their diaries. That is why all these things come up. Remember,
> that is why such-like people never remain in contact.
> [Q]: Sometimes I would imagine there is such terrible pressure from
> family members, that satsangis give in.
> [M]: I tell you. I was born in a family of meat-eaters. As a child, I did
> not partake of it. Nobody can force you. One may refuse. I can love you
> but it is not necessary to eat what you eat. These are limited excuses,
> you know. Somebody came to India who said, "When any food is offered,
> it should not be refused - in the Bible it says so." So he cannot refuse
> anybody's offer of anything? They have a right to poison you? Good things
> you may accept. Otherwise politely you say, "No." If somebody offers you
> poison, would you accept it? It's really not poison, but it affects you. These
> are only lame excuses for not refusing. If you live for some time in contact
> with higher spirituality, then naturally the mind comes under control. Now
> the mind does not want to give up outer enjoyments. When you enjoy
> inner bliss, how can you return? In the beginning at least something has
> to be done regularly.
> [Q]: So it's a matter, I suppose, of not wishing to submit to the initial
> discipline that's required.
> [M]: That is what is strictly required, I tell you. In the old days,
> demonstrations of these gifts were never given to people at large.
> Only those who lived at the Master's feet for years, lived up to what
> He wanted, only when they were ready, were given something. Now
> the times have changed. Who can live with Master for years? So something
> is given and they are asked to maintain it by self-introspection, by
> regular devotion of time.
> [Q]: There are many, many people, of course mostly young men, who
> will spend hours training and preparing themselves for athletic contests.
> In a sense, this is a similar kind of training, isn't it?
> [M]: More lucrative. Such-like profit which will never be lost. "Lay up
> for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth
> corrupt." The main thing is, we have to leave the body. How do you
> stand? What's your fate? Two things happen at death: you are to leave
> the body, and you must know where to go. Is it not proper that we should
> be fed now and prepare?
> [Q]: But so many people these days seem to have talked themselves
> into the idea that there is no further fate, that there's just a bunch
> of nothingness that's going to assail them.
> [M]: That's all right. When sulphuric acid is put on copper filings, they
> will bubble out and disappear. There's no consciousness there. Energy
> is there, of course. A train is run by an engine. No consciousness is in
> the engine. You are a man, you are conscious. But after leaving the body,
> there is a very important question - we should know what is what. As
> a man we can do this, and in no other form of creation. Now you have
> come here. You have seen this place. You have got some guide here.
> You will come very confidently.
> [Q]: There's a great feeling of peace here.
> [M]: Yes, yet there's more peace There. All glory and beauty lie within
> you. Now you don't want to leave these outward enjoyments. Once we
> have some little experience of that inner bliss, we won't leave it, you see?
> [Q]: So it's keeping in training until that experience comes through?
> It may be keeping in training for fifteen years.
> [M]: What do these people want? They get some demonstration
> of it. What is that? It may not be a lot. It is just a start, but they
> get some demonstration. It is a special gift. Others who devote
> hours and hours and hours to the outward performances don't
> get anything. They pray, they cry, they sit down, and have their
> candle before them; it is all darkness within. The main thing is
> you have to leave the body. Who are you? Where are you? Where
> do you go? How does this body work? I think these are very vital
> questions, most vital, which concern our own self. The Hindu
> scriptures tell us that when the soul leaves the body, one feels
> the pain as if bitten by a thousand scorpions.
> [Q]: I notice that it says that, and yet there are some reports
> that many people die peacefully, apparently without pain.
> [M]: I tell you that may be from heart failure; if all their thoughts
> - desires - remain unfulfilled, they go on circling; their souls grovel
> around the earth. If a soul leaving the body at the time of death still
> wants something or is attached to somebody but cannot have it,
> he grovels around the world.
> [Q]: I know one relative, for example, who said just as she was
> about to die, "I see Jesus here." And apparently she died in peace.
> [M]: I tell you, that's due to a reaction of the past; but every man has
> not the same story behind him. She might be devoted to Jesus and be
> of good character. But at that time, when past actions are so near, the
> end comes only as a result of the whole life's essence. There are various
> cases you'll find.
> [Q]: So conceivably she wasn't in so much pain because she had devoted
> her life in that direction?
> [M]: Yes.
> [Q]: Then there are the reports of people who have made some of
> these astral trips and they say when they go into the astral there's
> no pain leaving the body.
> [M]: When they have learnt to leave that body, not before. To leave the
> body is the first question. When you are in the habit of coming and
> going daily, death is no bugbear. If you're coming from a hotter to a
> cooler place, then?
> [Q]: In other words, if you've learned how to do it, then the pain isn't there?
> [M]: No. And further, we should know where we are going. After all,
> there are worlds beyond. Because of our backgrounds too, we have
> got something which we are now earning.
> [Q]: Well, the departure at death is a different departure than, say,
> a departure for an astral flight. The departure at death goes through
> a different door with Kal waiting there to gobble you up, whereas he
> doesn't wait to gobble you up when you go out for an astral flight.
> [M]: Astral flight - that's just hovering around the world. Quite near
> the earth, not beyond. I went to London. There was a famous man
> there. He charged five pounds to have astral people talk through him.
> So some friends of mine said, "Let us go and see." The whole room
> was dark, pitch dark. We sat down. Nothing happened. There was very
> much acting and posing going on. He'd speak like a child, and strain
> himself: (The Master imitates the fake trembly voice of the medium)
> "The atmosphere is not favorable tonight - I cannot come." You see?
> It was his own voice. A man can train himself to talk that way in a dark
> room. There's fraud outside; I'm afraid there's a hundred times more black
> marketing inside. Those people are acting and posing. That's why people
> have lost faith in this work.
> [Q]: Too much fakery and commercialism?
> ******Here Kirpal talks of Twitchell******
> [M]: Yes, yes. Too much propaganda. I tell you, one American was
> initiated by me - I've got the initiation report in his own handwriting.
> Then he wrote to me, "The Master's Form appears to me inside."
> That Form used to speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that
> dictation was put into a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963.
> Then later on he started a new religion.
> [Q]: Yes. I've heard of him.
> [M]: Later he sent me another letter, "Return my book." That
> is what such - like people will do. They had some little thing,
> and got stuck fast there. Now he's carrying on propaganda.
> He says he was never initiated by me. He was initiated in 1955.
> Some people get stuck fast on the way. This little ego is very
> difficult to get rid of unless there's some kind of protection.
> This is a living example. I need not mention his name.
> [Q]: I don't think he mentions Your name either.
> [M]: I don't think he would. I don't like to say things about anyone.
> If any man does well, all right. I returned the book. That was dictated
> by me, and that's all right. He changed that book before printing; where
> he mentioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name. So
> such is the fate of these people. People are fed up with these masters,
> gurus, and sadhus. Why? Only for this reason. I told you there is black
> marketing outside but hundreds and thousands times more black
> marketing inside.
> [Q]: Do You ever feel at times that You would just like to stay here
> at Your home in the foothills of the Himalaya Mountains and not issue
> forth again to the hustle and the bustle of Delhi and other parts of the
> [M]: I'm bound, you see. I am directed what to do. I am a mere puppet.
> There is no question of my will now. That's all I can say. Even in the
> busiest of times, I've not planned first.
> [Q]: The karma of most people is already laid out. Is it possible
> for a Master, however, to say that, "All right, point one and point
> three of that karma will be interchanged. " Can He do that?
> [M]: What do you mean?
> [Q]: Well, I mean if we come down here with a certain amount of
> Pralabdh Karma that has to be paid off, is there necessarily any
> order that it has to follow in being paid off? Can a Master say,
> "Well, I'm going to hold back on this portion of your karma and
> you won't have to pay it off until you're sixty-seven years old?
> [M]: In one's own case or in the case of others?
> [Q]: In the case of others. In the case of His initiates.
> [M]: I tell you, the Master is to wind up all reactions to the best
> He can. The initiate prays, "Oh God, I pray I should go to Your
> Home forever, that I should not return." So He's working to wind
> up all actions and reactions. Most of them are paid off in dreams,
> and like that their severity is polished down to the minimum possible.
> Whatever reactions cannot be set aside, you've got to pass through,
> but with a little help on the side. Generally in the life of an initiate,
> he'll find many changes in his life. His life history according to
> astrology does not stand true. Those who have transcended the
> starry skies are under the control of One Who goes beyond those
> planes; there astrology does not stand true - things are changed.
> Many things are omitted, sometimes some things are delayed,
> some things are minimized.
> [Q]: You would not advise people to pay too much attention to
> astrology then?
> [M]: Those things won't stand true always. Many things are cut
> down, eliminated.
> [Q]: Is it at least a basis by which one can judge someone's character?
> [M]: By face you mean, or by writing? After all, stars have some effect,
> some effect. I'm only speaking of the destiny of those under the custody
> of Someone Who goes higher than that.
> [Q]: Actually, I suppose, I feel a little embarrassed at having sunk to
> this low subject when we were talking about higher matters. Is there
> something in this area here in the Himalaya Mountains that makes
> for better meditations? Or is it purely the presence of the Master?
> [M]: The presence of the Master, of course, is of great help in that.
> Solitude also goes to help - any atmosphere which is not poisoned
> by the thoughts of worldly people. Even Christ used to run away to
> the mountains, to the wilderness.
> [Q]: Let's see. When Christ was driven to the wilderness He was taken
> up on the mountain and told, "You can have all of this if You'll just bow
> down." He said, "Get thee behind me."
> [M]: Yes, it also happened to Guru Nanak. It happened with others,
> [Q]: This temptation then actually occurs at a certain place on the
> inner planes?
> [M]: Yes, in meditation. I need not mention by the way, the Negative
> Power tells me all that is going on in the world; everywhere you see
> trouble nowadays. Why are there troubles? He says, "I am bound to
> do it. After all, this work has been given to me. Those who are not
> good, they must have punishment. So You remove (souls) from this
> place, but this I won't quit. My work has been allotted to me to carry on."
> [Q]: Is the Negative Power an actual person?
> [M]: No. That very Power is no personality question. Just the power
> that is going out is called Negative Power. What is going in, That is
> called the Christ Power, God Power, Master Power going into expression.
> [Q]: But does the Negative Power on the inner planes ever take the
> form of something that might took like a person to us?
> [M]: Yes, it materializes but it has no special form. There is no
> special form, of course. But he is a very honest judge, very honest
> judge. One thing, he won't let anybody go out of his control, out
> of his pale. He'll give everything to you, but not let you go out of his
> [Q]: How much will he fight to keep that from happening?
> [M]: He'll fight up to the third plane. Beyond that he'll cry, "Oh, my
> man is gone."
> [Q]: He does not lose very many, does he?
> [M]: Yes, of course, there are many, not innumerable, but many,
> you can say.
> [Q]: Hopefully he'll lose us?
> [M]: Yes, he'll cry. Not will cry, but he cried because of those who
> got out of his power.
> [Q]: Was that story that's told about Kal a true one, that he told Sat
> Purush that he couldn't be happy up there and wanted his own realm?
> [M]: That is a way of expression. After all, this power has been
> given by Whom? Suppose I give you now one example. There is
> a king. He appoints a commander-in-chief. He's the appointing
> authority. And he's also the appointing authority of a viceroy.
> But their functions are different. The commander-in-chief never
> says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." He says, "I order
> you." Because he fully knows that power has been given to him
> from the higher power. He has so many colonels and majors.
> They get a very handsome salary and many concessions but he
> won't let those go out of his control. He'll haul them up, court
> martial them. When the city is in trouble it is handed over to
> the military. It punishes some men and others are set to put the
> condition of the town in order. But the viceroy never says, "I say;"
> he says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." All these avatars:
> Lord Krishna, Rama, and others, their duty is a different one.
> They come to punish the wicked, help those who are righteous
> and set the world in order. Saints' ways are different. They don't
> punish anyone; They seek to bring them around, you see. Their
> work is just to give them contact with God and let them go back
> to the Father's Home, not to come back as a prisoner. They might
> come back as a teacher. That's the difference. They depopulate
> the world. The avatar, you see, keeps the world in order, does
> not let the population grow less.
> [Q]: Does each Saint have a quota of souls that He is to bring
> back to Sat Purush?
> [M]: A limited amount, of course. Each Saint has His own work to
> do. The Power is the same, but Their functions are different. Each
> has His own duty; He does it and goes Home.
> [Q]: That figure that always comes up from the Bible is that
> a hundred and forty-four thousand are going to be saved.
> Presumably that was true around the year one A.D.?
> [M]: How many? That's only for each Saint, you see. Each
> Saint has His day. What did Christ say? Do you remember?
> "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
> [Q]: I think that may have been lost in translation in some
> editions of the Bible, though.
> [M]: No. It still stands.
> [Q]: Is it there, "As long as I am in the world?"
> [M]: Yes. Strange enough the Christians themselves don't
> know the Bible. I'm not quoting from my own. Read St. John,
> I think it is the ninth chapter, verse five. Of course, that's
> true. Then He said, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee
> till the end of the world." Whom He took under His custody,
> He won't leave. He's responsible for initiates until they reach
> the true Home of the Father.
> [Q]: "Till the end of the world," how should that be translated?
> [M]: That means until that soul reaches the Father's Home.
> [Q]: While we're talking about things out of the Bible, You
> recall the story, of course, about the rich young man who
> came to Jesus and said, "Lord, how can I be saved?"
> Jesus looked at him and said, "Give away all that thou hast
> and come follow me, "and the young man went away sorrowing
> for he had a lot of possessions and then Jesus turned and said,
> 'It's going to be easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye
> than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." Is that valid?
> [M]: It means the same thing. Those who are attached so much
> to worldly things, how can they go back to God? They won't even
> want to hear about leaving this world. When they leave it, they will
> be hovering around the world.
> [Q]: Is it possible to have possessions of this world without
> being attached to them?
> [M]: Yes, surely. I think you can be attached to only one,
> not many. You go where you are attached. What is your
> ruling passion in life? If you have got a ruling passion for
> the world, you will come back. A man who is so much given
> up to the worldly things and enjoyments, naturally cannot go -
> it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle rather
> than for a rich man to get into Heaven. You are not to think
> of the body you are about to leave - how can one who is given
> up to all attachments leave?
> [Q]: But it wouldn't be possible to just sit back and wait
> for an income to come in. I mean put it in a bank and wait
> for interest to come and then devote all your time to spirituality
> and let the income maintain you.
> [M]: This is one thing, of course, but suppose the bank fails?
> Put it in the lap of God. What happened in Panama when I went
> last time? I gave my passport to the Pan American Company to
> get a visa for South America. The Panamanians were fighting with
> the Americans at the time - the very day I arrived the building was
> burned down and my passport also got burnt. You see? I could not
> go. So suppose the bank fails! You still have to leave the body;
> maybe now or in ten years or twenty years; you may go to sleep
> tonight and never rise.
> [Q]: Well, would you advise everybody to sell everything or give
> away everything they have and come and follow You?
> [M]: I advise, "Live by the sweat of your brow," by honest earnings.
> Maintain your families with whom God has united you. It is the
> flowing pen of God which has brought you together. This is one
> thing; and never sow more seeds to be sprouted forth again.
> Your ruling passion, your ruling attachment, should be with God.
> Further, man should live not for his own self but for others.
> Animals do live for themselves. They fight others with their horns
> to save their children. If man does the same, where's his superiority?
> Man is the ruling power, you see; the highest in all creation, he
> has just to support the younger brothers, animals, birds, reptiles;
> they are all members of the family of God. They are younger brothers.
> [Q]: We haven't been doing very well by them.
> [M]: That is what I say. We are the heads. The head of the family
> should look after the welfare of all, and we go and eat them. It's
> not common sense. I love you and eat your children. We say we
> love God; all this creation is His. Here we have got cobras. If you
> have love for them, love radiates. They also have some sense, you
> see. "Be wise as serpents," Christ said. So our thoughts react, they
> use self-defense against us; attack. It so happened at Delhi,
> a Satsang had just started and a cobra came. There were some
> two or three hundred people sitting. This cobra came just in front
> of me and sat like that. To shoot this cobra wouldn't help. The
> talk was going on. He was just looking at me for more than an
> hour and a half. When the talk was over, he slipped away. They
> said, "We should kill him!" But why? He did not harm anyone.
> We are man, you see. Great is man. They're all our children.
> It is you who have spoiled the children. All nature is beautiful
> except when tormented by the hand of man.
> [Q]: And man will have to pay for this?
> [M]: Reactions. Reactions. You should love them. Generally
> in the case of serpents, they don't harm any child. Sometimes
> a child takes a snake in his mouth and it does not harm him.
> [Q]: Is there any chance that when you kill a snake you might
> be killing an old mother-in-law from a previous reincarnation?
> [M]: May or may not be, who knows? But serpents are only those
> who are very greedy people; those who were hoarding money.
> I tell you one man came here and he killed a female cobra that
> lived here. The male cobra came here for months to seek out
> that man. But he was never here. They're very smart. We have
> a glorious world but we have spoiled it by our own thoughts.
> [Q]: In a statement You made this afternoon, I still am not exactly
> certain what You meant when You said that it was harder to become
> a man than to see God.
> [M]: It is easier to meet God but it is harder to make a man.
> So it should be: man first, and then Him.
> [Q]: Well, I think if you see God you would automatically
> have all these karmas wiped out and become a perfect man.
> [M]: You're right, but what I mean is, to have an ideal man
> is very difficult. To find God is not. That takes time - to make
> a man takes time. The time factor is a necessity. It is not
> done in one day.
> [Q]: But if you see God, what do you care about becoming
> a perfect man? Why do you care?
> [M]: You get a glimpse of It; to get a glimpse of It is something
> else. You see the sun for a while but if you are absorbed in the
> sun, then?
> [Q]: But only the perfect man can continue to see God?
> [M]: Only the perfect man continually sees God, that's right.
> That means that righteousness is necessary. Righteousness:
> right thoughts, right words, right deeds. That is why this
> diary is kept until we are perfect. Man should change inside,
> not outside. Chastity of thought, word, and deed. That's the
> first thing required. The second thing is perseverance. These
> two things are required.
> [Q]: Is the Master Power going to stop this explosion from
> coming that seems so inevitable?
> [M]: Many will be saved who will turn their faces to Him.
> That's all I can say. The only thing is, we say something
> but mean something else. That's the trouble. If the
> governments really want peace, they should have an
> attitude of live and let others live. Make their countries
> so advanced and peace giving that everyone would want
> to come over there. Each government should make their
> country into a blooming garden - let everyone come and
> enjoy and help others bring their gardens into a blooming
> state. That should be the attitude.
> [Q]: You're painting a very dismal state of affairs tonight.
> Can't You offer us any hope?
> [M]: I have said - those who turn their faces to Him will be
> saved. There's hope. I'm talking about the general state of
> affairs. The tendency is to remain and enjoy; headlong
> down they are going. They speak of peace, they speak
> of peace - lip service, but they have turned away. There's
> trouble going on everywhere. Right understanding is required.
> This is what the Masters did in the past. They went out
> to give right understanding to the government and wake
> up. Anyhow, it is past the hands of the son of man - that
> much is sure. But there's awakening also and there's a good
> side. There are conferences all meeting together; and now
> the trend is to unite all nations.