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PT's "Rebazar" is Kirpal Singh!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, This is just one item from: http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gemsq.htm#Daily ... BTW: Notice that Twitchell changed the Virtue of Chastity which is
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 6, 2008
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      Hello All,
      This is just one item from:
      http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gemsq.htm#Daily
      >
      BTW: Notice that Twitchell changed the Virtue of Chastity
      which is the true opposite to the Passion of Lust! This is
      why it's so hard to remember the EK version (substitute)
      for this virture. And, notice that neither PT or Klemp promote
      the Vegan life style!
      >
      These are questions posed to Sri Kirpal Singh by his chelas.
      Notice his straightforward answers! Klemp could never have
      this kind of live Dialogues with the Master because HK's too
      ego sensitive and because Klemp's of a much lower caliper of
      Master than Kirpal was! I'd say Klemp is on the same level as
      a country preacher! Does this stuff sound like Eckankar dogma
      and what Twit wrote? You decide!
      >
      Remember too that Twitchell was in contact with Kirpal in
      1966 concerning PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript. Klemp
      has confirmed this fact on Eckankar.org. Kirpal even talks of
      Twitchell here, but doesn't mention him by name.
      >
      #################################################
      WHO ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU GOING?
      Evening Darshan, September 11, 1970
      from "The Light of Kirpal"
      >
      [Questioner]: Do some of your initiates get to the stage, maybe after
      several years, when they say, "I can't stand this any longer. I've got to
      eat meat. I've got to violate the chastity regulation. I've got to forget
      about keeping the diary," and then they take off and go someplace else?
      >
      [Master]: The point is, if this happens, they are not really hungry for
      something higher. They want only this life, not the other life. That's all.
      They had something; they did not live up to it and, moreover, they did
      not taste the sweet elixir of being in contact with the Absolute. Sometimes
      it's because of society. Sometimes it's because they don't keep their diaries.
      That is why all these things come up. Remember, that is why such-like
      people never remain in contact.
      >
      [Q]: Sometimes I would imagine there is such terrible pressure from
      family members, that satsangis give in.
      >
      [M]: I tell you. I was born in a family of meat-eaters. As a child, I did
      not partake of it. Nobody can force you. One may refuse. I can love you
      but it is not necessary to eat what you eat. These are limited excuses, you
      know. Somebody came to India who said, "When any food is offered, it
      should not be refused - in the Bible it says so." So he cannot refuse
      anybody's offer of anything? They have a right to poison you? Good things
      you may accept. Otherwise politely you say, "No." If somebody offers you
      poison, would you accept it? It's really not poison, but it affects you. These
      are only lame excuses for not refusing. If you live for some time in contact
      with higher spirituality, then naturally the mind comes under control. Now
      the mind does not want to give up outer enjoyments. When you enjoy
      inner bliss, how can you return? In the beginning at least something has
      to be done regularly.
      >
      [Q]: So it's a matter, I suppose, of not wishing to submit to the initial
      discipline that's required.
      >
      [M]: That is what is strictly required, I tell you. In the old days,
      demonstrations of these gifts were never given to people at large.
      Only those who lived at the Master's feet for years, lived up to what
      He wanted, only when they were ready, were given something. Now
      the times have changed. Who can live with Master for years? So something
      is given and they are asked to maintain it by self-introspection, by regular
      devotion of time.
      >
      [Q]: There are many, many people, of course mostly young men, who
      will spend hours training and preparing themselves for athletic contests.
      In a sense, this is a similar kind of training, isn't it?
      >
      [M]: More lucrative. Such-like profit which will never be lost. "Lay up
      for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth
      corrupt." The main thing is, we have to leave the body. How do you
      stand? What's your fate? Two things happen at death: you are to leave
      the body, and you must know where to go. Is it not proper that we should
      be fed now and prepare?
      >
      [Q]: But so many people these days seem to have talked themselves
      into the idea that there is no further fate, that there's just a bunch
      of nothingness that's going to assail them.
      >
      [M]: That's all right. When sulphuric acid is put on copper filings, they
      will bubble out and disappear. There's no consciousness there. Energy
      is there, of course. A train is run by an engine. No consciousness is in
      the engine. You are a man, you are conscious. But after leaving the body,
      there is a very important question - we should know what is what. As
      a man we can do this, and in no other form of creation. Now you have
      come here. You have seen this place. You have got some guide here.
      You will come very confidently.
      >
      [Q]: There's a great feeling of peace here.
      >
      [M]: Yes, yet there's more peace There. All glory and beauty lie within
      you. Now you don't want to leave these outward enjoyments. Once we
      have some little experience of that inner bliss, we won't leave it, you see?
      >
      [Q]: So it's keeping in training until that experience comes through?
      It may be keeping in training for fifteen years.
      >
      [M]: What do these people want? They get some demonstration
      of it. What is that? It may not be a lot. It is just a start, but they
      get some demonstration. It is a special gift. Others who devote
      hours and hours and hours to the outward performances don't
      get anything. They pray, they cry, they sit down, and have their
      candle before them; it is all darkness within. The main thing is
      you have to leave the body. Who are you? Where are you? Where
      do you go? How does this body work? I think these are very vital
      questions, most vital, which concern our own self. The Hindu
      scriptures tell us that when the soul leaves the body, one feels
      the pain as if bitten by a thousand scorpions.
      >
      [Q]: I notice that it says that, and yet there are some reports
      that many people die peacefully, apparently without pain.
      >
      [M]: I tell you that may be from heart failure; if all their thoughts
      - desires - remain unfulfilled, they go on circling; their souls grovel
      around the earth. If a soul leaving the body at the time of death still
      wants something or is attached to somebody but cannot have it,
      he grovels around the world.
      >
      [Q]: I know one relative, for example, who said just as she was
      about to die, "I see Jesus here." And apparently she died in peace.
      >
      [M]: I tell you, that's due to a reaction of the past; but every man has
      not the same story behind him. She might be devoted to Jesus and be
      of good character. But at that time, when past actions are so near, the
      end comes only as a result of the whole life's essence. There are various
      cases you'll find.
      >
      [Q]: So conceivably she wasn't in so much pain because she had devoted
      her life in that direction?
      >
      [M]: Yes.
      >
      [Q]: Then there are the reports of people who have made some of
      these astral trips and they say when they go into the astral there's
      no pain leaving the body.
      >
      [M]: When they have learnt to leave that body, not before. To leave the
      body is the first question. When you are in the habit of coming and
      going daily, death is no bugbear. If you're coming from a hotter to a
      cooler place, then?
      >
      [Q]: In other words, if you've learned how to do it, then the pain isn't there?
      >
      [M]: No. And further, we should know where we are going. After all,
      there are worlds beyond. Because of our backgrounds too, we have
      got something which we are now earning.
      >
      [Q]: Well, the departure at death is a different departure than, say,
      a departure for an astral flight. The departure at death goes through
      a different door with Kal waiting there to gobble you up, whereas he
      doesn't wait to gobble you up when you go out for an astral flight.
      >
      [M]: Astral flight - that's just hovering around the world. Quite near
      the earth, not beyond. I went to London. There was a famous man
      there. He charged five pounds to have astral people talk through him.
      So some friends of mine said, "Let us go and see." The whole room
      was dark, pitch dark. We sat down. Nothing happened. There was very
      much acting and posing going on. He'd speak like a child, and strain
      himself: (The Master imitates the fake trembly voice of the medium)
      "The atmosphere is not favorable tonight - I cannot come." You see?
      It was his own voice. A man can train himself to talk that way in a dark
      room. There's fraud outside; I'm afraid there's a hundred times more black
      marketing inside. Those people are acting and posing. That's why people
      have lost faith in this work.
      >
      [Q]: Too much fakery and commercialism?

      ******Here Kirpal talks of Twitchell******

      [M]: Yes, yes. Too much propaganda. I tell you, one American was
      initiated by me - I've got the initiation report in his own handwriting.
      Then he wrote to me, "The Master's Form appears to me inside."
      That Form used to speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that
      dictation was put into a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963.
      Then later on he started a new religion.
      >
      [Q]: Yes. I've heard of him.
      >
      [M]: Later he sent me another letter, "Return my book." That
      is what such - like people will do. They had some little thing,
      and got stuck fast there. Now he's carrying on propaganda.
      He says he was never initiated by me. He was initiated in 1955.
      Some people get stuck fast on the way. This little ego is very
      difficult to get rid of unless there's some kind of protection.
      This is a living example. I need not mention his name.
      >
      [Q]: I don't think he mentions Your name either.
      >
      [M]: I don't think he would. I don't like to say things about anyone.
      If any man does well, all right. I returned the book. That was dictated
      by me, and that's all right. He changed that book before printing; where
      he mentioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name. So
      such is the fate of these people. People are fed up with these masters,
      gurus, and sadhus. Why? Only for this reason. I told you there is black
      marketing outside but hundreds and thousands times more black
      marketing inside.
      >
      [Q]: Do You ever feel at times that You would just like to stay here
      at Your home in the foothills of the Himalaya Mountains and not issue
      forth again to the hustle and the bustle of Delhi and other parts of the
      world?
      >
      [M]: I'm bound, you see. I am directed what to do. I am a mere puppet.
      There is no question of my will now. That's all I can say. Even in the
      busiest of times, I've not planned first.
      >
      [Q]: The karma of most people is already laid out. Is it possible
      for a Master, however, to say that, "All right, point one and point
      three of that karma will be interchanged. " Can He do that?
      >
      [M]: What do you mean?
      >
      [Q]: Well, I mean if we come down here with a certain amount of
      Pralabdh Karma that has to be paid off, is there necessarily any
      order that it has to follow in being paid off? Can a Master say,
      "Well, I'm going to hold back on this portion of your karma and
      you won't have to pay it off until you're sixty-seven years old?
      >
      [M]: In one's own case or in the case of others?
      >
      [Q]: In the case of others. In the case of His initiates.
      >
      [M]: I tell you, the Master is to wind up all reactions to the best
      He can. The initiate prays, "Oh God, I pray I should go to Your
      Home forever, that I should not return." So He's working to wind
      up all actions and reactions. Most of them are paid off in dreams,
      and like that their severity is polished down to the minimum possible.
      Whatever reactions cannot be set aside, you've got to pass through,
      but with a little help on the side. Generally in the life of an initiate,
      he'll find many changes in his life. His life history according to
      astrology does not stand true. Those who have transcended the
      starry skies are under the control of One Who goes beyond those
      planes; there astrology does not stand true - things are changed.
      Many things are omitted, sometimes some things are delayed,
      some things are minimized.
      >
      [Q]: You would not advise people to pay too much attention to
      astrology then?
      >
      [M]: Those things won't stand true always. Many things are cut
      down, eliminated.
      >
      [Q]: Is it at least a basis by which one can judge someone's character?
      >
      [M]: By face you mean, or by writing? After all, stars have some effect,
      some effect. I'm only speaking of the destiny of those under the custody
      of Someone Who goes higher than that.
      >
      [Q]: Actually, I suppose, I feel a little embarrassed at having sunk to
      this low subject when we were talking about higher matters. Is there
      something in this area here in the Himalaya Mountains that makes
      for better meditations? Or is it purely the presence of the Master?
      >
      [M]: The presence of the Master, of course, is of great help in that.
      Solitude also goes to help - any atmosphere which is not poisoned
      by the thoughts of worldly people. Even Christ used to run away to
      the mountains, to the wilderness.
      >
      [Q]: Let's see. When Christ was driven to the wilderness He was taken
      up on the mountain and told, "You can have all of this if You'll just bow
      down." He said, "Get thee behind me."
      >
      [M]: Yes, it also happened to Guru Nanak. It happened with others, too.
      >
      [Q]: This temptation then actually occurs at a certain place on the inner
      planes?
      >
      [M]: Yes, in meditation. I need not mention by the way, the Negative
      Power tells me all that is going on in the world; everywhere you see
      trouble nowadays. Why are there troubles? He says, "I am bound to
      do it. After all, this work has been given to me. Those who are not
      good, they must have punishment. So You remove (souls) from this
      place, but this I won't quit. My work has been allotted to me to carry on."
      >
      [Q]: Is the Negative Power an actual person?
      >
      [M]: No. That very Power is no personality question. Just the power
      that is going out is called Negative Power. What is going in, That is
      called the Christ Power, God Power, Master Power going into expression.
      >
      [Q]: But does the Negative Power on the inner planes ever take the
      form of something that might took like a person to us?
      >
      [M]: Yes, it materializes but it has no special form. There is no
      special form, of course. But he is a very honest judge, very honest
      judge. One thing, he won't let anybody go out of his control, out
      of his pale. He'll give everything to you, but not let you go out of his
      control.
      >
      [Q]: How much will he fight to keep that from happening?
      >
      [M]: He'll fight up to the third plane. Beyond that he'll cry, "Oh, my man is gone."
      >
      [Q]: He does not lose very many, does he?
      >
      [M]: Yes, of course, there are many, not innumerable, but many, you can say.
      >
      [Q]: Hopefully he'll lose us?
      >
      [M]: Yes, he'll cry. Not will cry, but he cried because of those who got out of his power.
      >
      [Q]: Was that story that's told about Kal a true one, that he told Sat Purush that he
      couldn't be happy up there and wanted his own realm?
      >
      [M]: That is a way of expression. After all, this power has been
      given by Whom? Suppose I give you now one example. There is
      a king. He appoints a commander-in-chief. He's the appointing
      authority. And he's also the appointing authority of a viceroy.
      But their functions are different. The commander-in-chief never
      says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." He says, "I order
      you." Because he fully knows that power has been given to him
      from the higher power. He has so many colonels and majors.
      They get a very handsome salary and many concessions but he
      won't let those go out of his control. He'll haul them up, court
      martial them. When the city is in trouble it is handed over to
      the military. It punishes some men and others are set to put the
      condition of the town in order. But the viceroy never says, "I say;"
      he says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." All these avatars:
      Lord Krishna, Rama, and others, their duty is a different one.
      They come to punish the wicked, help those who are righteous
      and set the world in order. Saints' ways are different. They don't
      punish anyone; They seek to bring them around, you see. Their
      work is just to give them contact with God and let them go back
      to the Father's Home, not to come back as a prisoner. They might
      come back as a teacher. That's the difference. They depopulate
      the world. The avatar, you see, keeps the world in order, does
      not let the population grow less.
      >
      [Q]: Does each Saint have a quota of souls that He is to bring back to Sat Purush?
      >
      [M]: A limited amount, of course. Each Saint has His own work to do. The Power is the
      same, but Their functions are different. Each has His own duty; He does it and goes
      Home.
      >
      [Q]: That figure that always comes up from the Bible is that
      a hundred and forty-four thousand are going to be saved.
      Presumably that was true around the year one A.D.?
      >
      [M]: How many? That's only for each Saint, you see. Each
      Saint has His day. What did Christ say? Do you remember?
      "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
      >
      [Q]: I think that may have been lost in translation in some
      editions of the Bible, though.
      >
      [M]: No. It still stands.
      >
      [Q]: Is it there, "As long as I am in the world?"
      >
      [M]: Yes. Strange enough the Christians themselves don't
      know the Bible. I'm not quoting from my own. Read St. John,
      I think it is the ninth chapter, verse five. Of course, that's
      true. Then He said, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee
      till the end of the world." Whom He took under His custody,
      He won't leave. He's responsible for initiates until they reach
      the true Home of the Father.
      >
      [Q]: "Till the end of the world," how should that be translated?
      >
      [M]: That means until that soul reaches the Father's Home.
      >
      [Q]: While we're talking about things out of the Bible, You
      recall the story, of course, about the rich young man who
      came to Jesus and said, "Lord, how can I be saved?"
      Jesus looked at him and said, "Give away all that thou hast
      and come follow me, "and the young man went away sorrowing
      for he had a lot of possessions and then Jesus turned and said,
      'It's going to be easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye
      than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." Is that valid?
      >
      [M]: It means the same thing. Those who are attached so much to worldly things, how
      can they go back to God? They won't even want to hear about leaving this world. When
      they leave it, they will be hovering around the world.
      >
      [Q]: Is it possible to have possessions of this world without being attached to them?
      >
      [M]: Yes, surely. I think you can be attached to only one,
      not many. You go where you are attached. What is your
      ruling passion in life? If you have got a ruling passion for
      the world, you will come back. A man who is so much given
      up to the worldly things and enjoyments, naturally cannot go -
      it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle rather
      than for a rich man to get into Heaven. You are not to think
      of the body you are about to leave - how can one who is given
      up to all attachments leave?
      >
      [Q]: But it wouldn't be possible to just sit back and wait
      for an income to come in. I mean put it in a bank and wait
      for interest to come and then devote all your time to spirituality
      and let the income maintain you.
      >
      [M]: This is one thing, of course, but suppose the bank fails?
      Put it in the lap of God. What happened in Panama when I went
      last time? I gave my passport to the Pan American Company to
      get a visa for South America. The Panamanians were fighting with
      the Americans at the time - the very day I arrived the building was
      burned down and my passport also got burnt. You see? I could not
      go. So suppose the bank fails! You still have to leave the body;
      maybe now or in ten years or twenty years; you may go to sleep
      tonight and never rise.
      >
      [Q]: Well, would you advise everybody to sell everything or give
      away everything they have and come and follow You?
      >
      [M]: I advise, "Live by the sweat of your brow," by honest earnings.
      Maintain your families with whom God has united you. It is the
      flowing pen of God which has brought you together. This is one
      thing; and never sow more seeds to be sprouted forth again.
      Your ruling passion, your ruling attachment, should be with God.
      Further, man should live not for his own self but for others.
      Animals do live for themselves. They fight others with their horns
      to save their children. If man does the same, where's his superiority?
      Man is the ruling power, you see; the highest in all creation, he
      has just to support the younger brothers, animals, birds, reptiles;
      they are all members of the family of God. They are younger brothers.
      >
      [Q]: We haven't been doing very well by them.
      >
      [M]: That is what I say. We are the heads. The head of the family
      should look after the welfare of all, and we go and eat them. It's
      not common sense. I love you and eat your children. We say we
      love God; all this creation is His. Here we have got cobras. If you
      have love for them, love radiates. They also have some sense, you
      see. "Be wise as serpents," Christ said. So our thoughts react, they
      use self-defense against us; attack. It so happened at Delhi,
      a Satsang had just started and a cobra came. There were some
      two or three hundred people sitting. This cobra came just in front
      of me and sat like that. To shoot this cobra wouldn't help. The
      talk was going on. He was just looking at me for more than an
      hour and a half. When the talk was over, he slipped away. They
      said, "We should kill him!" But why? He did not harm anyone.
      We are man, you see. Great is man. They're all our children.
      It is you who have spoiled the children. All nature is beautiful
      except when tormented by the hand of man.
      >
      [Q]: And man will have to pay for this?
      >
      [M]: Reactions. Reactions. You should love them. Generally
      in the case of serpents, they don't harm any child. Sometimes
      a child takes a snake in his mouth and it does not harm him.
      >
      [Q]: Is there any chance that when you kill a snake you might
      be killing an old mother-in-law from a previous reincarnation?
      >
      [M]: May or may not be, who knows? But serpents are only those
      who are very greedy people; those who were hoarding money.
      I tell you one man came here and he killed a female cobra that
      lived here. The male cobra came here for months to seek out
      that man. But he was never here. They're very smart. We have
      a glorious world but we have spoiled it by our own thoughts.
      >
      [Q]: In a statement You made this afternoon, I still am not exactly
      certain what You meant when You said that it was harder to become
      a man than to see God.
      >
      [M]: It is easier to meet God but it is harder to make a man.
      So it should be: man first, and then Him.
      >
      [Q]: Well, I think if you see God you would automatically
      have all these karmas wiped out and become a perfect man.
      >
      [M]: You're right, but what I mean is, to have an ideal man
      is very difficult. To find God is not. That takes time - to make
      a man takes time. The time factor is a necessity. It is not
      done in one day.
      >
      [Q]: But if you see God, what do you care about becoming
      a perfect man? Why do you care?
      >
      [M]: You get a glimpse of It; to get a glimpse of It is something
      else. You see the sun for a while but if you are absorbed in the
      sun, then?
      >
      [Q]: But only the perfect man can continue to see God?
      >
      [M]: Only the perfect man continually sees God, that's right.
      That means that righteousness is necessary. Righteousness:
      right thoughts, right words, right deeds. That is why this
      diary is kept until we are perfect. Man should change inside,
      not outside. Chastity of thought, word, and deed. That's the
      first thing required. The second thing is perseverance. These
      two things are required.
      >
      [Q]: Is the Master Power going to stop this explosion from
      coming that seems so inevitable?
      >
      [M]: Many will be saved who will turn their faces to Him.
      That's all I can say. The only thing is, we say something
      but mean something else. That's the trouble. If the
      governments really want peace, they should have an
      attitude of live and let others live. Make their countries
      so advanced and peace giving that everyone would want
      to come over there. Each government should make their
      country into a blooming garden - let everyone come and
      enjoy and help others bring their gardens into a blooming
      state. That should be the attitude.
      >
      [Q]: You're painting a very dismal state of affairs tonight.
      Can't You offer us any hope?
      >
      [M]: I have said - those who turn their faces to Him will be
      saved. There's hope. I'm talking about the general state of
      affairs. The tendency is to remain and enjoy; headlong
      down they are going. They speak of peace, they speak
      of peace - lip service, but they have turned away. There's
      trouble going on everywhere. Right understanding is required.
      This is what the Masters did in the past. They went out
      to give right understanding to the government and wake
      up. Anyhow, it is past the hands of the son of man - that
      much is sure. But there's awakening also and there's a good
      side. There are conferences all meeting together; and now
      the trend is to unite all nations.
      >
      {END]
    • prometheus_973
      Here s more Kirpal information for ECKists to research! Get out your EK Lexicons to look up the definitions! SPIRITUAL ELIXIR...
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 6, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Here's more Kirpal information for ECKists to research!
        Get out your EK Lexicons to look up the definitions!

        SPIRITUAL ELIXIR...

        http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/elixir.htm


        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > This is just one item from:
        > http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gemsq.htm#Daily
        > >
        > BTW: Notice that Twitchell changed the Virtue of Chastity
        > which is the true opposite to the Passion of Lust! This is
        > why it's so hard to remember the EK version (substitute)
        > for this virture. And, notice that neither PT or Klemp promote
        > the Vegan life style! And, Kirpal promotes keeping a Diary!
        > >
        > These are questions posed to Sri Kirpal Singh by his chelas.
        > Notice his straightforward answers! Klemp could never have
        > this kind of live Dialogues with the Master because HK's too
        > ego sensitive and because Klemp's of a much lower caliper of
        > Master than Kirpal was! I'd say Klemp is on the same level as
        > a country preacher! Does this stuff sound like Eckankar dogma
        > and what Twit wrote? You decide!
        > >
        > Remember too that Twitchell was in contact with Kirpal in
        > 1966 concerning PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript. Klemp
        > has confirmed this fact on Eckankar.org. Kirpal even talks of
        > Twitchell here, but doesn't mention him by name.
        > >
        > #################################################
        > WHO ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU GOING?
        > Evening Darshan, September 11, 1970
        > from "The Light of Kirpal"
        > >
        > [Questioner]: Do some of your initiates get to the stage, maybe
        > after several years, when they say, "I can't stand this any longer.
        > I've got to eat meat. I've got to violate the chastity regulation. I've
        > got to forget about keeping the diary," and then they take off and
        > go someplace else?
        > >
        > [Master]: The point is, if this happens, they are not really hungry
        > for something higher. They want only this life, not the other life.
        > That's all. They had something; they did not live up to it and, moreover,
        > they did not taste the sweet elixir of being in contact with the Absolute.
        > Sometimes it's because of society. Sometimes it's because they don't
        > keep their diaries. That is why all these things come up. Remember,
        > that is why such-like people never remain in contact.
        > >
        > [Q]: Sometimes I would imagine there is such terrible pressure from
        > family members, that satsangis give in.
        > >
        > [M]: I tell you. I was born in a family of meat-eaters. As a child, I did
        > not partake of it. Nobody can force you. One may refuse. I can love you
        > but it is not necessary to eat what you eat. These are limited excuses,
        > you know. Somebody came to India who said, "When any food is offered,
        > it should not be refused - in the Bible it says so." So he cannot refuse
        > anybody's offer of anything? They have a right to poison you? Good things
        > you may accept. Otherwise politely you say, "No." If somebody offers you
        > poison, would you accept it? It's really not poison, but it affects you. These
        > are only lame excuses for not refusing. If you live for some time in contact
        > with higher spirituality, then naturally the mind comes under control. Now
        > the mind does not want to give up outer enjoyments. When you enjoy
        > inner bliss, how can you return? In the beginning at least something has
        > to be done regularly.
        > >
        > [Q]: So it's a matter, I suppose, of not wishing to submit to the initial
        > discipline that's required.
        > >
        > [M]: That is what is strictly required, I tell you. In the old days,
        > demonstrations of these gifts were never given to people at large.
        > Only those who lived at the Master's feet for years, lived up to what
        > He wanted, only when they were ready, were given something. Now
        > the times have changed. Who can live with Master for years? So something
        > is given and they are asked to maintain it by self-introspection, by
        > regular devotion of time.
        > >
        > [Q]: There are many, many people, of course mostly young men, who
        > will spend hours training and preparing themselves for athletic contests.
        > In a sense, this is a similar kind of training, isn't it?
        > >
        > [M]: More lucrative. Such-like profit which will never be lost. "Lay up
        > for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth
        > corrupt." The main thing is, we have to leave the body. How do you
        > stand? What's your fate? Two things happen at death: you are to leave
        > the body, and you must know where to go. Is it not proper that we should
        > be fed now and prepare?
        > >
        > [Q]: But so many people these days seem to have talked themselves
        > into the idea that there is no further fate, that there's just a bunch
        > of nothingness that's going to assail them.
        > >
        > [M]: That's all right. When sulphuric acid is put on copper filings, they
        > will bubble out and disappear. There's no consciousness there. Energy
        > is there, of course. A train is run by an engine. No consciousness is in
        > the engine. You are a man, you are conscious. But after leaving the body,
        > there is a very important question - we should know what is what. As
        > a man we can do this, and in no other form of creation. Now you have
        > come here. You have seen this place. You have got some guide here.
        > You will come very confidently.
        > >
        > [Q]: There's a great feeling of peace here.
        > >
        > [M]: Yes, yet there's more peace There. All glory and beauty lie within
        > you. Now you don't want to leave these outward enjoyments. Once we
        > have some little experience of that inner bliss, we won't leave it, you see?
        > >
        > [Q]: So it's keeping in training until that experience comes through?
        > It may be keeping in training for fifteen years.
        > >
        > [M]: What do these people want? They get some demonstration
        > of it. What is that? It may not be a lot. It is just a start, but they
        > get some demonstration. It is a special gift. Others who devote
        > hours and hours and hours to the outward performances don't
        > get anything. They pray, they cry, they sit down, and have their
        > candle before them; it is all darkness within. The main thing is
        > you have to leave the body. Who are you? Where are you? Where
        > do you go? How does this body work? I think these are very vital
        > questions, most vital, which concern our own self. The Hindu
        > scriptures tell us that when the soul leaves the body, one feels
        > the pain as if bitten by a thousand scorpions.
        > >
        > [Q]: I notice that it says that, and yet there are some reports
        > that many people die peacefully, apparently without pain.
        > >
        > [M]: I tell you that may be from heart failure; if all their thoughts
        > - desires - remain unfulfilled, they go on circling; their souls grovel
        > around the earth. If a soul leaving the body at the time of death still
        > wants something or is attached to somebody but cannot have it,
        > he grovels around the world.
        > >
        > [Q]: I know one relative, for example, who said just as she was
        > about to die, "I see Jesus here." And apparently she died in peace.
        > >
        > [M]: I tell you, that's due to a reaction of the past; but every man has
        > not the same story behind him. She might be devoted to Jesus and be
        > of good character. But at that time, when past actions are so near, the
        > end comes only as a result of the whole life's essence. There are various
        > cases you'll find.
        > >
        > [Q]: So conceivably she wasn't in so much pain because she had devoted
        > her life in that direction?
        > >
        > [M]: Yes.
        > >
        > [Q]: Then there are the reports of people who have made some of
        > these astral trips and they say when they go into the astral there's
        > no pain leaving the body.
        > >
        > [M]: When they have learnt to leave that body, not before. To leave the
        > body is the first question. When you are in the habit of coming and
        > going daily, death is no bugbear. If you're coming from a hotter to a
        > cooler place, then?
        > >
        > [Q]: In other words, if you've learned how to do it, then the pain isn't there?
        > >
        > [M]: No. And further, we should know where we are going. After all,
        > there are worlds beyond. Because of our backgrounds too, we have
        > got something which we are now earning.
        > >
        > [Q]: Well, the departure at death is a different departure than, say,
        > a departure for an astral flight. The departure at death goes through
        > a different door with Kal waiting there to gobble you up, whereas he
        > doesn't wait to gobble you up when you go out for an astral flight.
        > >
        > [M]: Astral flight - that's just hovering around the world. Quite near
        > the earth, not beyond. I went to London. There was a famous man
        > there. He charged five pounds to have astral people talk through him.
        > So some friends of mine said, "Let us go and see." The whole room
        > was dark, pitch dark. We sat down. Nothing happened. There was very
        > much acting and posing going on. He'd speak like a child, and strain
        > himself: (The Master imitates the fake trembly voice of the medium)
        > "The atmosphere is not favorable tonight - I cannot come." You see?
        > It was his own voice. A man can train himself to talk that way in a dark
        > room. There's fraud outside; I'm afraid there's a hundred times more black
        > marketing inside. Those people are acting and posing. That's why people
        > have lost faith in this work.
        > >
        > [Q]: Too much fakery and commercialism?
        >
        > ******Here Kirpal talks of Twitchell******
        >
        > [M]: Yes, yes. Too much propaganda. I tell you, one American was
        > initiated by me - I've got the initiation report in his own handwriting.
        > Then he wrote to me, "The Master's Form appears to me inside."
        > That Form used to speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that
        > dictation was put into a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963.
        > Then later on he started a new religion.
        > >
        > [Q]: Yes. I've heard of him.
        > >
        > [M]: Later he sent me another letter, "Return my book." That
        > is what such - like people will do. They had some little thing,
        > and got stuck fast there. Now he's carrying on propaganda.
        > He says he was never initiated by me. He was initiated in 1955.
        > Some people get stuck fast on the way. This little ego is very
        > difficult to get rid of unless there's some kind of protection.
        > This is a living example. I need not mention his name.
        > >
        > [Q]: I don't think he mentions Your name either.
        > >
        > [M]: I don't think he would. I don't like to say things about anyone.
        > If any man does well, all right. I returned the book. That was dictated
        > by me, and that's all right. He changed that book before printing; where
        > he mentioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name. So
        > such is the fate of these people. People are fed up with these masters,
        > gurus, and sadhus. Why? Only for this reason. I told you there is black
        > marketing outside but hundreds and thousands times more black
        > marketing inside.
        > >
        > [Q]: Do You ever feel at times that You would just like to stay here
        > at Your home in the foothills of the Himalaya Mountains and not issue
        > forth again to the hustle and the bustle of Delhi and other parts of the
        > world?
        > >
        > [M]: I'm bound, you see. I am directed what to do. I am a mere puppet.
        > There is no question of my will now. That's all I can say. Even in the
        > busiest of times, I've not planned first.
        > >
        > [Q]: The karma of most people is already laid out. Is it possible
        > for a Master, however, to say that, "All right, point one and point
        > three of that karma will be interchanged. " Can He do that?
        > >
        > [M]: What do you mean?
        > >
        > [Q]: Well, I mean if we come down here with a certain amount of
        > Pralabdh Karma that has to be paid off, is there necessarily any
        > order that it has to follow in being paid off? Can a Master say,
        > "Well, I'm going to hold back on this portion of your karma and
        > you won't have to pay it off until you're sixty-seven years old?
        > >
        > [M]: In one's own case or in the case of others?
        > >
        > [Q]: In the case of others. In the case of His initiates.
        > >
        > [M]: I tell you, the Master is to wind up all reactions to the best
        > He can. The initiate prays, "Oh God, I pray I should go to Your
        > Home forever, that I should not return." So He's working to wind
        > up all actions and reactions. Most of them are paid off in dreams,
        > and like that their severity is polished down to the minimum possible.
        > Whatever reactions cannot be set aside, you've got to pass through,
        > but with a little help on the side. Generally in the life of an initiate,
        > he'll find many changes in his life. His life history according to
        > astrology does not stand true. Those who have transcended the
        > starry skies are under the control of One Who goes beyond those
        > planes; there astrology does not stand true - things are changed.
        > Many things are omitted, sometimes some things are delayed,
        > some things are minimized.
        > >
        > [Q]: You would not advise people to pay too much attention to
        > astrology then?
        > >
        > [M]: Those things won't stand true always. Many things are cut
        > down, eliminated.
        > >
        > [Q]: Is it at least a basis by which one can judge someone's character?
        > >
        > [M]: By face you mean, or by writing? After all, stars have some effect,
        > some effect. I'm only speaking of the destiny of those under the custody
        > of Someone Who goes higher than that.
        > >
        > [Q]: Actually, I suppose, I feel a little embarrassed at having sunk to
        > this low subject when we were talking about higher matters. Is there
        > something in this area here in the Himalaya Mountains that makes
        > for better meditations? Or is it purely the presence of the Master?
        > >
        > [M]: The presence of the Master, of course, is of great help in that.
        > Solitude also goes to help - any atmosphere which is not poisoned
        > by the thoughts of worldly people. Even Christ used to run away to
        > the mountains, to the wilderness.
        > >
        > [Q]: Let's see. When Christ was driven to the wilderness He was taken
        > up on the mountain and told, "You can have all of this if You'll just bow
        > down." He said, "Get thee behind me."
        > >
        > [M]: Yes, it also happened to Guru Nanak. It happened with others,
        > too.
        > >
        > [Q]: This temptation then actually occurs at a certain place on the
        > inner planes?
        > >
        > [M]: Yes, in meditation. I need not mention by the way, the Negative
        > Power tells me all that is going on in the world; everywhere you see
        > trouble nowadays. Why are there troubles? He says, "I am bound to
        > do it. After all, this work has been given to me. Those who are not
        > good, they must have punishment. So You remove (souls) from this
        > place, but this I won't quit. My work has been allotted to me to carry on."
        > >
        > [Q]: Is the Negative Power an actual person?
        > >
        > [M]: No. That very Power is no personality question. Just the power
        > that is going out is called Negative Power. What is going in, That is
        > called the Christ Power, God Power, Master Power going into expression.
        > >
        > [Q]: But does the Negative Power on the inner planes ever take the
        > form of something that might took like a person to us?
        > >
        > [M]: Yes, it materializes but it has no special form. There is no
        > special form, of course. But he is a very honest judge, very honest
        > judge. One thing, he won't let anybody go out of his control, out
        > of his pale. He'll give everything to you, but not let you go out of his
        > control.
        > >
        > [Q]: How much will he fight to keep that from happening?
        > >
        > [M]: He'll fight up to the third plane. Beyond that he'll cry, "Oh, my
        > man is gone."
        > >
        > [Q]: He does not lose very many, does he?
        > >
        > [M]: Yes, of course, there are many, not innumerable, but many,
        > you can say.
        > >
        > [Q]: Hopefully he'll lose us?
        > >
        > [M]: Yes, he'll cry. Not will cry, but he cried because of those who
        > got out of his power.
        > >
        > [Q]: Was that story that's told about Kal a true one, that he told Sat
        > Purush that he couldn't be happy up there and wanted his own realm?
        > >
        > [M]: That is a way of expression. After all, this power has been
        > given by Whom? Suppose I give you now one example. There is
        > a king. He appoints a commander-in-chief. He's the appointing
        > authority. And he's also the appointing authority of a viceroy.
        > But their functions are different. The commander-in-chief never
        > says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." He says, "I order
        > you." Because he fully knows that power has been given to him
        > from the higher power. He has so many colonels and majors.
        > They get a very handsome salary and many concessions but he
        > won't let those go out of his control. He'll haul them up, court
        > martial them. When the city is in trouble it is handed over to
        > the military. It punishes some men and others are set to put the
        > condition of the town in order. But the viceroy never says, "I say;"
        > he says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." All these avatars:
        > Lord Krishna, Rama, and others, their duty is a different one.
        > They come to punish the wicked, help those who are righteous
        > and set the world in order. Saints' ways are different. They don't
        > punish anyone; They seek to bring them around, you see. Their
        > work is just to give them contact with God and let them go back
        > to the Father's Home, not to come back as a prisoner. They might
        > come back as a teacher. That's the difference. They depopulate
        > the world. The avatar, you see, keeps the world in order, does
        > not let the population grow less.
        > >
        > [Q]: Does each Saint have a quota of souls that He is to bring
        > back to Sat Purush?
        > >
        > [M]: A limited amount, of course. Each Saint has His own work to
        > do. The Power is the same, but Their functions are different. Each
        > has His own duty; He does it and goes Home.
        > >
        > [Q]: That figure that always comes up from the Bible is that
        > a hundred and forty-four thousand are going to be saved.
        > Presumably that was true around the year one A.D.?
        > >
        > [M]: How many? That's only for each Saint, you see. Each
        > Saint has His day. What did Christ say? Do you remember?
        > "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
        > >
        > [Q]: I think that may have been lost in translation in some
        > editions of the Bible, though.
        > >
        > [M]: No. It still stands.
        > >
        > [Q]: Is it there, "As long as I am in the world?"
        > >
        > [M]: Yes. Strange enough the Christians themselves don't
        > know the Bible. I'm not quoting from my own. Read St. John,
        > I think it is the ninth chapter, verse five. Of course, that's
        > true. Then He said, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee
        > till the end of the world." Whom He took under His custody,
        > He won't leave. He's responsible for initiates until they reach
        > the true Home of the Father.
        > >
        > [Q]: "Till the end of the world," how should that be translated?
        > >
        > [M]: That means until that soul reaches the Father's Home.
        > >
        > [Q]: While we're talking about things out of the Bible, You
        > recall the story, of course, about the rich young man who
        > came to Jesus and said, "Lord, how can I be saved?"
        > Jesus looked at him and said, "Give away all that thou hast
        > and come follow me, "and the young man went away sorrowing
        > for he had a lot of possessions and then Jesus turned and said,
        > 'It's going to be easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye
        > than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." Is that valid?
        > >
        > [M]: It means the same thing. Those who are attached so much
        > to worldly things, how can they go back to God? They won't even
        > want to hear about leaving this world. When they leave it, they will
        > be hovering around the world.
        > >
        > [Q]: Is it possible to have possessions of this world without
        > being attached to them?
        > >
        > [M]: Yes, surely. I think you can be attached to only one,
        > not many. You go where you are attached. What is your
        > ruling passion in life? If you have got a ruling passion for
        > the world, you will come back. A man who is so much given
        > up to the worldly things and enjoyments, naturally cannot go -
        > it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle rather
        > than for a rich man to get into Heaven. You are not to think
        > of the body you are about to leave - how can one who is given
        > up to all attachments leave?
        > >
        > [Q]: But it wouldn't be possible to just sit back and wait
        > for an income to come in. I mean put it in a bank and wait
        > for interest to come and then devote all your time to spirituality
        > and let the income maintain you.
        > >
        > [M]: This is one thing, of course, but suppose the bank fails?
        > Put it in the lap of God. What happened in Panama when I went
        > last time? I gave my passport to the Pan American Company to
        > get a visa for South America. The Panamanians were fighting with
        > the Americans at the time - the very day I arrived the building was
        > burned down and my passport also got burnt. You see? I could not
        > go. So suppose the bank fails! You still have to leave the body;
        > maybe now or in ten years or twenty years; you may go to sleep
        > tonight and never rise.
        > >
        > [Q]: Well, would you advise everybody to sell everything or give
        > away everything they have and come and follow You?
        > >
        > [M]: I advise, "Live by the sweat of your brow," by honest earnings.
        > Maintain your families with whom God has united you. It is the
        > flowing pen of God which has brought you together. This is one
        > thing; and never sow more seeds to be sprouted forth again.
        > Your ruling passion, your ruling attachment, should be with God.
        > Further, man should live not for his own self but for others.
        > Animals do live for themselves. They fight others with their horns
        > to save their children. If man does the same, where's his superiority?
        > Man is the ruling power, you see; the highest in all creation, he
        > has just to support the younger brothers, animals, birds, reptiles;
        > they are all members of the family of God. They are younger brothers.
        > >
        > [Q]: We haven't been doing very well by them.
        > >
        > [M]: That is what I say. We are the heads. The head of the family
        > should look after the welfare of all, and we go and eat them. It's
        > not common sense. I love you and eat your children. We say we
        > love God; all this creation is His. Here we have got cobras. If you
        > have love for them, love radiates. They also have some sense, you
        > see. "Be wise as serpents," Christ said. So our thoughts react, they
        > use self-defense against us; attack. It so happened at Delhi,
        > a Satsang had just started and a cobra came. There were some
        > two or three hundred people sitting. This cobra came just in front
        > of me and sat like that. To shoot this cobra wouldn't help. The
        > talk was going on. He was just looking at me for more than an
        > hour and a half. When the talk was over, he slipped away. They
        > said, "We should kill him!" But why? He did not harm anyone.
        > We are man, you see. Great is man. They're all our children.
        > It is you who have spoiled the children. All nature is beautiful
        > except when tormented by the hand of man.
        > >
        > [Q]: And man will have to pay for this?
        > >
        > [M]: Reactions. Reactions. You should love them. Generally
        > in the case of serpents, they don't harm any child. Sometimes
        > a child takes a snake in his mouth and it does not harm him.
        > >
        > [Q]: Is there any chance that when you kill a snake you might
        > be killing an old mother-in-law from a previous reincarnation?
        > >
        > [M]: May or may not be, who knows? But serpents are only those
        > who are very greedy people; those who were hoarding money.
        > I tell you one man came here and he killed a female cobra that
        > lived here. The male cobra came here for months to seek out
        > that man. But he was never here. They're very smart. We have
        > a glorious world but we have spoiled it by our own thoughts.
        > >
        > [Q]: In a statement You made this afternoon, I still am not exactly
        > certain what You meant when You said that it was harder to become
        > a man than to see God.
        > >
        > [M]: It is easier to meet God but it is harder to make a man.
        > So it should be: man first, and then Him.
        > >
        > [Q]: Well, I think if you see God you would automatically
        > have all these karmas wiped out and become a perfect man.
        > >
        > [M]: You're right, but what I mean is, to have an ideal man
        > is very difficult. To find God is not. That takes time - to make
        > a man takes time. The time factor is a necessity. It is not
        > done in one day.
        > >
        > [Q]: But if you see God, what do you care about becoming
        > a perfect man? Why do you care?
        > >
        > [M]: You get a glimpse of It; to get a glimpse of It is something
        > else. You see the sun for a while but if you are absorbed in the
        > sun, then?
        > >
        > [Q]: But only the perfect man can continue to see God?
        > >
        > [M]: Only the perfect man continually sees God, that's right.
        > That means that righteousness is necessary. Righteousness:
        > right thoughts, right words, right deeds. That is why this
        > diary is kept until we are perfect. Man should change inside,
        > not outside. Chastity of thought, word, and deed. That's the
        > first thing required. The second thing is perseverance. These
        > two things are required.
        > >
        > [Q]: Is the Master Power going to stop this explosion from
        > coming that seems so inevitable?
        > >
        > [M]: Many will be saved who will turn their faces to Him.
        > That's all I can say. The only thing is, we say something
        > but mean something else. That's the trouble. If the
        > governments really want peace, they should have an
        > attitude of live and let others live. Make their countries
        > so advanced and peace giving that everyone would want
        > to come over there. Each government should make their
        > country into a blooming garden - let everyone come and
        > enjoy and help others bring their gardens into a blooming
        > state. That should be the attitude.
        > >
        > [Q]: You're painting a very dismal state of affairs tonight.
        > Can't You offer us any hope?
        > >
        > [M]: I have said - those who turn their faces to Him will be
        > saved. There's hope. I'm talking about the general state of
        > affairs. The tendency is to remain and enjoy; headlong
        > down they are going. They speak of peace, they speak
        > of peace - lip service, but they have turned away. There's
        > trouble going on everywhere. Right understanding is required.
        > This is what the Masters did in the past. They went out
        > to give right understanding to the government and wake
        > up. Anyhow, it is past the hands of the son of man - that
        > much is sure. But there's awakening also and there's a good
        > side. There are conferences all meeting together; and now
        > the trend is to unite all nations.
        > >
        > {END}
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