Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: It's All About Harold . . . Here!

Expand Messages
  • prometheus_973
    Hi Mish and All, I liked your post! I think that Marman s real motives for doing what he s doing stems from ego. He likes to talk and talk and talk. He seems
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 3, 2008
      Hi Mish and All,
      I liked your post! I think that Marman's real
      motives for doing what he's doing stems from
      ego. He likes to talk and talk and talk. He seems
      to need the attention (and money).

      Marman talks about Twitchell's distortions (lies)
      and even of how PT substituted fictional characters
      and names for real people, but explains this away
      as being some sort of "paradox!" LOL! However,
      a Lie is still a Lie! Apparently, "outer" lies justify
      the "higher" message. But Twitchell lied about
      that as well!

      By Any Means Necessary is not the foundation
      by which to build trust or an organization, but
      it does seem to fit perfectly with the philosophy
      that other religions and governments tend to
      practice continuously! Therefore, Twitchell's and
      Klemp's Eckankar Church is in good company!

      Doug doesn't understand that the "inner"
      imaginations and "spiritual" experiences
      and "miracles" of other people in other
      religions, outside of Eckankar, are even more
      valid than those "experiences" that members
      of Eckankar have! There are far more and
      far greater "spiritual" experiences and
      "inspiration" Outside of Eckankar than Inside
      of Eckankar!

      For example: Rumi was Not an ECKist regardless
      of what the liars claim! Besides, as I've stated before...
      Klemp talks out of both sides of his mouth
      when he promotes Rumi to ECKists while putting
      down Rumi's religion (i.e. beliefs and inspiration)
      as being from a 2nd or 4th Plane God who Klemp,
      as well as, PT's EK Dogma claims is KAL or SATAN!

      Just look at HK's comments in his "Autobiography
      of a Modern Prophet" on page 385. Also, look
      at the index in the Shariyat (EK's Holy Book) for
      "Satan" and you will discover that this is another
      name for Kal.

      Klemp (Marman & Eckankar) see the "God" that
      all other religions worship as being a 2nd or 4th
      Plane God who is also known as Kal and Satan!
      Whereas, Klemp (the walking talking and real God)
      claims to reside on all planes up to and including
      the 14th Plane... and even higher! Amazing... No,
      not really... it's an obvious lie! Klemp is more like
      a second class Pope, or a Billy Graham poser!

      Really! Klemp can't even heal his loyal followers of
      cancer! 4th Plane Jesus would be able to!

      The proof is in the pudding! This seems to be
      a blind spot for all ECKists, especially, Marman!
      And, reality requires more than just a vivid imagination,
      and positive thinking. Being in denial of Truth is
      the real sickness!

      What it really comes down to is Don't Trust Anyone
      to tell you about God or Spirit or Soul... trust yourself!

      If you can't trust yourself (yet) just don't buy into the
      whole load of what others are telling you. Take what
      you need or works for you the individual Soul at this
      time. Unfortunately, most ECKists will claim to use this
      method, as well, but they delude themselves. They
      need to pay that annual membership "donation" in
      order to still be eligible for those coveted initiations
      and they "need" to be co-dependent upon a middleman/
      Mahanta for their "spiritual" validation to exist!

      Klemp teaches ECKists to become powerless and unable
      to take responsibility for their own actions. The chela gives
      all power over to the "Inner Master" (Klemp) and thereby
      denies their own. EK chelas and H.I.s should have an end
      goal in mind for this lifetime. This should lead to Self-Mastery
      absent of religion, religious leaders and middlemen!

      It's a real Catch-22 ploy but those like Klemp, as well
      as his underlings, will use various tactics to twist the
      truth in order to manipulate those fearful, gullible and
      trusting. Once one has elevated another to a pedestal
      to be admired it usually takes a real shock or revelation
      to show one the Truth. Until that happens one can only
      point out the similarities of Eckankar to other religious
      frauds! ECKists need to think back to their real spiritual
      goals before joining Eckankar... it didn't have anything
      to do with initiation numbers!

      Prometheus


      mishmisha wrote:
      >
      > It's all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : )
      >
      > Hi, ringing_radience!
      >
      > Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have
      > mentioned him from time to time, but ESA's focus is on Twitchell
      > and Klemp--especially Klemp since he is the current leader (25
      > years plus) of the scamming org. called eckankar. However, I
      > have read some of his excerpts and also the dialogues that Doug
      > Marman has presented on other websites. I do not care to
      > read his stuff--I don't really see the point. I think he has stated
      > that he is not an official spokesman for eckankar anyway. Besides,
      > Doug himself has mentioned that "The Whole Truth" wasn't really
      > the whole truth! : ) But it is interesting that you are wondering
      > what his purpose is--maybe Doug is preparing for when Harold
      > does step down, anticipating a splinter group that he might
      > capture away from the original org? That's an interesting idea
      > and maybe a possibility. Of course, we have discussed here that
      > Harold has been trying to situate Joan in a more powerful
      > position, such as co-L.E.M., in order for Harold to hold the
      > power for a longer time. I suppose Harold's afraid of what will
      > become of eckankar after he's gone--maybe a big ditching of
      > all of his books, talks, writings, pics, etc. Sort of like what
      > happened with Darwin, perhaps? Lots of speculations of course,
      > but Harold's actions and words do make one wonder, doesn't
      > it.
      >
      > (Top two reasons I've not read Marman's books: 1. I don't
      > want to pay him for his books; 2. I don't want to expend the
      > time.)
      >
      > Right now, I'm waiting for Klemp to come out with his next
      > exciting book--"Those Wonderful ECK Masters" was a jewel
      > for sure!! It should be fun to read and review a next book by
      > Harold. LOL! Have you read "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"--
      > it's a fun read and sort of clever of Harold the way he plays
      > with the concept of female eck masters just now coming out and
      > how Joan is also written about in this book about eck masters. . . .
      >
      > Welcome to the site!
      >
      > Mish
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ringing_radience"
      > <ringing_radience@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thanks for your response prometheus_973.
      > >
      > > To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
      > > was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
      > > newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
      > > trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
      > > to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
      > > is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
      > > ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
      > > Eckankar movement?
      > >
      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hello,
      > > > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
      > > > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
      > > > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
      > > > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
      > > >
      > > > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
      > > > for yourself!
      > > >
      > > > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
      > > > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
      > > > knows too many dirty little details and where the
      > > > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
      > > > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
      > > > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
      > > > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
      > > > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
      > > > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
      > > > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
      > > > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
      > > > equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
      > > > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
      > > > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
      > > >
      > > > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
      > > > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
      > > > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
      > > > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
      > > > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
      > > > January 1969.
      > > >
      > > > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
      > > > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
      > > > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
      > > > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
      > > > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
      > > > was experimenting with various titles for himself
      > > > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
      > > >
      > > > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
      > > > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
      > > > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
      > > > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
      > > > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
      > > > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
      > > > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
      > > >
      > > > If you want to read current views held by Marman
      > > > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
      > > >
      > > > Prometheus
      > > >
      > > > ringing_radience wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > Hello everyone,
      > > > >
      > > > This my first post.
      > > > >
      > > > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
      > > > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
      > > > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
      > > > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
      > > > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
      > > > while doing some research.
      > > > >
      > > > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
      > > > about them here:
      > > > >
      > > > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
      > > > >
      > > > Thanks!
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Leanne Thompson
      I read somewhere that there couldn t be any women eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 3, 2008


        I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan Klemps role(maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ???? who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his experiences in a book?

         

        Leanne


      • mishmisha9
        Hi, Leanne! I believe it serves Klemp s purpose to bring out the female eck masters since it will allow him to place Joan in a position of authority beside
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 3, 2008
          Hi, Leanne!

          I believe it serves Klemp's purpose to bring out the
          female eck masters since it will allow him to place Joan
          in a position of authority beside him, like co-L.E.M.
          After reading his book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
          it seems that Klemp is inserting the idea in a somewhat
          subtle way that Joan would be elevated to eck master.
          However, for the slow learning chela, when reflecting
          back to this book, it is obvious that Joan had already
          become an eck master, just like Kata Daki. Klemp spins
          Joan into some of the stories showing how she is acting
          like an eck master--well, the book is interesting to read
          when you look for this subtle slight of hand that Klemp
          is doing regarding Joan.

          Klemp is looking at his age and energy in staying at the
          helm of the eck org. He had asserted at one time that he
          would hold the leadership position 10 to 20 years, but he
          has well exceeded it now. And it doesn't look like he is anytime
          soon ready to step down.

          In "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," pages 235-236, Klemp
          addresses how long he would serve as L.E.M and if any initiates
          were in training. He wrote: ". . . a few initiates were indeed
          in training for leadership in ECK, but no one was ready yet
          to assume the responsibility. It might take several years or
          many more for the first one to complete all the tests. Accordingly,
          the Master would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta,
          the Living ECK Master."

          So, H.I.'s and the power players like Peter Skelsky still have
          a long wait to become the next chosen one. Quite a contrast
          to how long Klemp waited! LOL! But Klemp is still holding on
          to the power and seems intent not to let go--and the "another
          cycle" would be how long, 12 years?

          Klemp needs Joan though because he can't trust sharing the
          limelight with anyone else. He most likely fears that he might
          suffer the same fate as Darwin--he might have done unto him
          what he did to Gross! : )

          Klemp paves the way for Joan becoming a female eck master
          by giving Kata Daki the same attention he does to the other
          eck masters in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," by devoting
          a chapter to each, including a chapter for this female eck master.
          Klemp explains that now is the time for the female masters to
          appear with this explanation on page 63:

          "Before we get too far along, we need to say a word about
          the female members of the Vairagi Order. There are precious
          few of them in relation to the number of males, and it is for
          a good reason. In past ages, and sometimes even today, it
          was easier for a male to move about in harsh societies and
          environments. So a Soul that had earned the right to incarnate
          into a lifetime devoted to the quest for Mastership often chose
          a male body. It was simply easier to get around in. That is not
          to say the individual's quest for truth was easier. It was not. . . . "

          Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
          that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
          in becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
          men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
          course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
          reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's predecessor,
          as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
          official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
          by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
          brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
          and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp.

          So, bringing out female eck masters today fits in with the
          continuing conning of the chelas--Klemp is revising the teachings
          to suit his specific purposes. He needs Joan to have some legitimate
          power in order to help him hold onto the reins of the eck org.

          Role and rolling, very funny! : )

          Mish

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
          <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women eck masters (something to do with
          energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan Klemps
          role(maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they are changing their tune now. Whatever
          happened to Grahm ???? who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
          experiences in a book?
          >  
          > Leanne
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I think Mish explained Klemp s slight of hand tactics rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK Masters was written Klemp talked about being
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 4, 2008
            Hello All,
            I think Mish explained Klemp's slight of hand tactics
            rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK
            Masters was written Klemp talked about being around
            for another (12 year) cycle. Therefore, Klemp is planning
            to stay for Three 12 year cycles, or 36 years. So, HK's
            reign is to be from 1981-2017! Or, would that be 2018!
            Klemp was 39 years old (1942) when DG made him the
            LEM. Klemp is 66 years old now, as is, his first wife and
            8th initiate Marge. I think Gail (who "made" Darwin) is
            67 years old and Joan is still 65. Anyway, Klemp doesn't
            want to let go of all his powers (as Mahanta) until he is
            75 or 76 years old! This is Why HK needs Joan to help
            him with the running of the org.

            Therefore, Klemp needs to pave the way for Joan becoming
            the next LEM or Co-LEM. For Klemp to say that there is
            no one ready after 27 years is a lie! Besides, some of these
            ECKists have been members as long as he has, thus, they
            have been "in training" for 40 years! Anyway, this is why
            Klemp is placing Joan on the same level with Kata Daki (KD).
            Even Kata Daki is a fake EK Master and was created 9 years
            after Twitchell's sister's (Kay-Dee) death. Anyway, this is
            what the older H.I.s have to look forward to. Eventually,
            (by 2017 or 2018) someone, Marge and Harold's daughter's
            age, will become the next Emperor of Eckankar.

            On another note:
            As far as when Twitchell first created and spoke of Rebazar?
            I think PT probably created RT around 1955. This was when
            Kirpal Singh first came to the U.S. and this was when Twitchell
            was initiated by Kirpal. PT had been writing fiction, plagiarizing,
            exaggerating (to extremes at times) and using name and word
            substitution in his articles from almost day one! IMO Twit simply
            used Kirpal's status and example and Ruhani Satsang dogma
            to form the basis for his fictional character of (master) Rebazar
            Tarzs.

            Prometheus


            Leanne wrote:
            I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women
            eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego .)
            ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan
            Klemps role (maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they
            are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ????
            who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
            experiences in a book?


            Mish wrote:
            [snip]
            "Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
            that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
            to becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
            men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
            course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
            reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's successor,
            as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
            official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
            by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
            brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
            and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp."


            Etznab wrote:
            "Doing research about Eckankar
            history for educational purposes
            I am attempting to clarify some
            dates.

            Primarily, When did Paul and
            Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
            but not certain of day and month)
            And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
            appear in print.

            I'd asked "these" questions on
            A.R.E., but so far no response.

            Do you have the date someplace
            in your archives for when Paul and
            Gail were married? Want to hazard
            a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
            first appeared in print?"
          • Leanne Thompson
            Will klemp collect social security as a man or eck master?   Leanne ... From: prometheus_973 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous]
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 4, 2008

              Will klemp collect social security as a man or eck master?

               

              Leanne

              --- On Fri, 7/4/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Women Eckmasters... Now or Never Were???
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 11:08 AM

              Hello All,
              I think Mish explained Klemp's slight of hand tactics
              rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK
              Masters was written Klemp talked about being around
              for another (12 year) cycle. Therefore, Klemp is planning
              to stay for Three 12 year cycles, or 36 years. So, HK's
              reign is to be from 1981-2017! Or, would that be 2018!
              Klemp was 39 years old (1942) when DG made him the
              LEM. Klemp is 66 years old now, as is, his first wife and
              8th initiate Marge. I think Gail (who "made" Darwin) is
              67 years old and Joan is still 65. Anyway, Klemp doesn't
              want to let go of all his powers (as Mahanta) until he is
              75 or 76 years old! This is Why HK needs Joan to help
              him with the running of the org.

              Therefore, Klemp needs to pave the way for Joan becoming
              the next LEM or Co-LEM. For Klemp to say that there is
              no one ready after 27 years is a lie! Besides, some of these
              ECKists have been members as long as he has, thus, they
              have been "in training" for 40 years! Anyway, this is why
              Klemp is placing Joan on the same level with Kata Daki (KD).
              Even Kata Daki is a fake EK Master and was created 9 years
              after Twitchell's sister's (Kay-Dee) death. Anyway, this is
              what the older H.I.s have to look forward to. Eventually,
              (by 2017 or 2018) someone, Marge and Harold's daughter's
              age, will become the next Emperor of Eckankar.

              On another note:
              As far as when Twitchell first created and spoke of Rebazar?
              I think PT probably created RT around 1955. This was when
              Kirpal Singh first came to the U.S. and this was when Twitchell
              was initiated by Kirpal. PT had been writing fiction, plagiarizing,
              exaggerating (to extremes at times) and using name and word
              substitution in his articles from almost day one! IMO Twit simply
              used Kirpal's status and example and Ruhani Satsang dogma
              to form the basis for his fictional character of (master) Rebazar
              Tarzs.

              Prometheus

              Leanne wrote:
              I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women
              eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego .)
              ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan
              Klemps role (maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they
              are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ????
              who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
              experiences in a book?

              Mish wrote:
              [snip]
              "Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
              that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
              to becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
              men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
              course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
              reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's successor,
              as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
              official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
              by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
              brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
              and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp."

              Etznab wrote:
              "Doing research about Eckankar
              history for educational purposes
              I am attempting to clarify some
              dates.

              Primarily, When did Paul and
              Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
              but not certain of day and month)
              And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
              appear in print.

              I'd asked "these" questions on
              A.R.E., but so far no response.

              Do you have the date someplace
              in your archives for when Paul and
              Gail were married? Want to hazard
              a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
              first appeared in print?"


            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.