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Re: Doug Marman's Books "The Whole Truth", and "The Silent Questions"

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello, Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who stated on Ford Johnson s (former) Truth-Seeker Site that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 2, 2008
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      Hello,
      Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
      stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
      that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
      that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!

      Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
      for yourself!

      I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
      but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
      knows too many dirty little details and where the
      skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
      him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
      so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
      inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
      Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
      Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
      the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
      as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
      equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
      (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
      HK's Eckankar Lexicon!

      Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
      and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
      of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
      dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
      or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
      January 1969.

      PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
      in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
      of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
      past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
      from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
      was experimenting with various titles for himself
      and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!

      Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
      because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
      has time and money and friendships invested, and because
      he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
      have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
      a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
      breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!

      If you want to read current views held by Marman
      then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.

      Prometheus

      ringing_radience wrote:
      >
      Hello everyone,
      >
      This my first post.
      >
      Has anyone read either of these two newer books
      by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
      current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
      and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
      writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
      while doing some research.
      >
      If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
      about them here:
      >
      http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
      >
      Thanks!
      >
    • ringing_radience
      Thanks for your response prometheus_973. To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here was to find out if anyone here has actually read
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 2, 2008
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        Thanks for your response prometheus_973.

        To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
        was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
        newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
        trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
        to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
        is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
        ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
        Eckankar movement?

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello,
        > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
        > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
        > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
        > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
        >
        > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
        > for yourself!
        >
        > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
        > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
        > knows too many dirty little details and where the
        > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
        > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
        > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
        > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
        > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
        > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
        > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
        > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
        > equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
        > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
        > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
        >
        > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
        > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
        > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
        > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
        > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
        > January 1969.
        >
        > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
        > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
        > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
        > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
        > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
        > was experimenting with various titles for himself
        > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
        >
        > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
        > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
        > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
        > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
        > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
        > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
        > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
        >
        > If you want to read current views held by Marman
        > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > ringing_radience wrote:
        > >
        > Hello everyone,
        > >
        > This my first post.
        > >
        > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
        > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
        > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
        > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
        > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
        > while doing some research.
        > >
        > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
        > about them here:
        > >
        > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
        > >
        > Thanks!
        > >
        >
      • mishmisha9
        It s all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : ) Hi, ringing_radience! Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have mentioned him
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 2, 2008
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          It's all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : )

          Hi, ringing_radience!

          Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have
          mentioned him from time to time, but ESA's focus is on Twitchell
          and Klemp--especially Klemp since he is the current leader (25
          years plus) of the scamming org. called eckankar. However, I
          have read some of his excerpts and also the dialogues that Doug
          Marman has presented on other websites. I do not care to
          read his stuff--I don't really see the point. I think he has stated
          that he is not an official spokesman for eckankar anyway. Besides,
          Doug himself has mentioned that "The Whole Truth" wasn't really
          the whole truth! : ) But it is interesting that you are wondering
          what his purpose is--maybe Doug is preparing for when Harold
          does step down, anticipating a splinter group that he might
          capture away from the original org? That's an interesting idea
          and maybe a possibility. Of course, we have discussed here that
          Harold has been trying to situate Joan in a more powerful
          position, such as co-L.E.M., in order for Harold to hold the
          power for a longer time. I suppose Harold's afraid of what will
          become of eckankar after he's gone--maybe a big ditching of
          all of his books, talks, writings, pics, etc. Sort of like what
          happened with Darwin, perhaps? Lots of speculations of course,
          but Harold's actions and words do make one wonder, doesn't
          it.

          (Top two reasons I've not read Marman's books: 1. I don't
          want to pay him for his books; 2. I don't want to expend the
          time.)

          Right now, I'm waiting for Klemp to come out with his next
          exciting book--"Those Wonderful ECK Masters" was a jewel
          for sure!! It should be fun to read and review a next book by
          Harold. LOL! Have you read "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"--
          it's a fun read and sort of clever of Harold the way he plays
          with the concept of female eck masters just now coming out and
          how Joan is also written about in this book about eck masters. . . .

          Welcome to the site!

          Mish

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ringing_radience"
          <ringing_radience@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks for your response prometheus_973.
          >
          > To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
          > was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
          > newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
          > trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
          > to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
          > is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
          > ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
          > Eckankar movement?
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello,
          > > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
          > > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
          > > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
          > > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
          > >
          > > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
          > > for yourself!
          > >
          > > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
          > > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
          > > knows too many dirty little details and where the
          > > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
          > > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
          > > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
          > > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
          > > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
          > > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
          > > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
          > > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
          > > equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
          > > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
          > > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
          > >
          > > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
          > > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
          > > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
          > > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
          > > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
          > > January 1969.
          > >
          > > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
          > > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
          > > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
          > > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
          > > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
          > > was experimenting with various titles for himself
          > > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
          > >
          > > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
          > > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
          > > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
          > > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
          > > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
          > > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
          > > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
          > >
          > > If you want to read current views held by Marman
          > > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > > ringing_radience wrote:
          > > >
          > > Hello everyone,
          > > >
          > > This my first post.
          > > >
          > > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
          > > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
          > > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
          > > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
          > > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
          > > while doing some research.
          > > >
          > > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
          > > about them here:
          > > >
          > > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
          > > >
          > > Thanks!
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Mish and All, I liked your post! I think that Marman s real motives for doing what he s doing stems from ego. He likes to talk and talk and talk. He seems
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 3, 2008
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            Hi Mish and All,
            I liked your post! I think that Marman's real
            motives for doing what he's doing stems from
            ego. He likes to talk and talk and talk. He seems
            to need the attention (and money).

            Marman talks about Twitchell's distortions (lies)
            and even of how PT substituted fictional characters
            and names for real people, but explains this away
            as being some sort of "paradox!" LOL! However,
            a Lie is still a Lie! Apparently, "outer" lies justify
            the "higher" message. But Twitchell lied about
            that as well!

            By Any Means Necessary is not the foundation
            by which to build trust or an organization, but
            it does seem to fit perfectly with the philosophy
            that other religions and governments tend to
            practice continuously! Therefore, Twitchell's and
            Klemp's Eckankar Church is in good company!

            Doug doesn't understand that the "inner"
            imaginations and "spiritual" experiences
            and "miracles" of other people in other
            religions, outside of Eckankar, are even more
            valid than those "experiences" that members
            of Eckankar have! There are far more and
            far greater "spiritual" experiences and
            "inspiration" Outside of Eckankar than Inside
            of Eckankar!

            For example: Rumi was Not an ECKist regardless
            of what the liars claim! Besides, as I've stated before...
            Klemp talks out of both sides of his mouth
            when he promotes Rumi to ECKists while putting
            down Rumi's religion (i.e. beliefs and inspiration)
            as being from a 2nd or 4th Plane God who Klemp,
            as well as, PT's EK Dogma claims is KAL or SATAN!

            Just look at HK's comments in his "Autobiography
            of a Modern Prophet" on page 385. Also, look
            at the index in the Shariyat (EK's Holy Book) for
            "Satan" and you will discover that this is another
            name for Kal.

            Klemp (Marman & Eckankar) see the "God" that
            all other religions worship as being a 2nd or 4th
            Plane God who is also known as Kal and Satan!
            Whereas, Klemp (the walking talking and real God)
            claims to reside on all planes up to and including
            the 14th Plane... and even higher! Amazing... No,
            not really... it's an obvious lie! Klemp is more like
            a second class Pope, or a Billy Graham poser!

            Really! Klemp can't even heal his loyal followers of
            cancer! 4th Plane Jesus would be able to!

            The proof is in the pudding! This seems to be
            a blind spot for all ECKists, especially, Marman!
            And, reality requires more than just a vivid imagination,
            and positive thinking. Being in denial of Truth is
            the real sickness!

            What it really comes down to is Don't Trust Anyone
            to tell you about God or Spirit or Soul... trust yourself!

            If you can't trust yourself (yet) just don't buy into the
            whole load of what others are telling you. Take what
            you need or works for you the individual Soul at this
            time. Unfortunately, most ECKists will claim to use this
            method, as well, but they delude themselves. They
            need to pay that annual membership "donation" in
            order to still be eligible for those coveted initiations
            and they "need" to be co-dependent upon a middleman/
            Mahanta for their "spiritual" validation to exist!

            Klemp teaches ECKists to become powerless and unable
            to take responsibility for their own actions. The chela gives
            all power over to the "Inner Master" (Klemp) and thereby
            denies their own. EK chelas and H.I.s should have an end
            goal in mind for this lifetime. This should lead to Self-Mastery
            absent of religion, religious leaders and middlemen!

            It's a real Catch-22 ploy but those like Klemp, as well
            as his underlings, will use various tactics to twist the
            truth in order to manipulate those fearful, gullible and
            trusting. Once one has elevated another to a pedestal
            to be admired it usually takes a real shock or revelation
            to show one the Truth. Until that happens one can only
            point out the similarities of Eckankar to other religious
            frauds! ECKists need to think back to their real spiritual
            goals before joining Eckankar... it didn't have anything
            to do with initiation numbers!

            Prometheus


            mishmisha wrote:
            >
            > It's all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : )
            >
            > Hi, ringing_radience!
            >
            > Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have
            > mentioned him from time to time, but ESA's focus is on Twitchell
            > and Klemp--especially Klemp since he is the current leader (25
            > years plus) of the scamming org. called eckankar. However, I
            > have read some of his excerpts and also the dialogues that Doug
            > Marman has presented on other websites. I do not care to
            > read his stuff--I don't really see the point. I think he has stated
            > that he is not an official spokesman for eckankar anyway. Besides,
            > Doug himself has mentioned that "The Whole Truth" wasn't really
            > the whole truth! : ) But it is interesting that you are wondering
            > what his purpose is--maybe Doug is preparing for when Harold
            > does step down, anticipating a splinter group that he might
            > capture away from the original org? That's an interesting idea
            > and maybe a possibility. Of course, we have discussed here that
            > Harold has been trying to situate Joan in a more powerful
            > position, such as co-L.E.M., in order for Harold to hold the
            > power for a longer time. I suppose Harold's afraid of what will
            > become of eckankar after he's gone--maybe a big ditching of
            > all of his books, talks, writings, pics, etc. Sort of like what
            > happened with Darwin, perhaps? Lots of speculations of course,
            > but Harold's actions and words do make one wonder, doesn't
            > it.
            >
            > (Top two reasons I've not read Marman's books: 1. I don't
            > want to pay him for his books; 2. I don't want to expend the
            > time.)
            >
            > Right now, I'm waiting for Klemp to come out with his next
            > exciting book--"Those Wonderful ECK Masters" was a jewel
            > for sure!! It should be fun to read and review a next book by
            > Harold. LOL! Have you read "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"--
            > it's a fun read and sort of clever of Harold the way he plays
            > with the concept of female eck masters just now coming out and
            > how Joan is also written about in this book about eck masters. . . .
            >
            > Welcome to the site!
            >
            > Mish
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ringing_radience"
            > <ringing_radience@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks for your response prometheus_973.
            > >
            > > To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
            > > was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
            > > newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
            > > trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
            > > to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
            > > is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
            > > ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
            > > Eckankar movement?
            > >
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello,
            > > > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
            > > > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
            > > > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
            > > > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
            > > >
            > > > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
            > > > for yourself!
            > > >
            > > > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
            > > > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
            > > > knows too many dirty little details and where the
            > > > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
            > > > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
            > > > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
            > > > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
            > > > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
            > > > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
            > > > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
            > > > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
            > > > equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
            > > > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
            > > > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
            > > >
            > > > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
            > > > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
            > > > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
            > > > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
            > > > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
            > > > January 1969.
            > > >
            > > > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
            > > > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
            > > > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
            > > > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
            > > > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
            > > > was experimenting with various titles for himself
            > > > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
            > > >
            > > > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
            > > > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
            > > > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
            > > > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
            > > > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
            > > > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
            > > > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
            > > >
            > > > If you want to read current views held by Marman
            > > > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > > >
            > > > ringing_radience wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > Hello everyone,
            > > > >
            > > > This my first post.
            > > > >
            > > > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
            > > > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
            > > > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
            > > > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
            > > > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
            > > > while doing some research.
            > > > >
            > > > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
            > > > about them here:
            > > > >
            > > > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
            > > > >
            > > > Thanks!
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Leanne Thompson
            I read somewhere that there couldn t be any women eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 3, 2008
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              I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan Klemps role(maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ???? who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his experiences in a book?

               

              Leanne


            • mishmisha9
              Hi, Leanne! I believe it serves Klemp s purpose to bring out the female eck masters since it will allow him to place Joan in a position of authority beside
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 3, 2008
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                Hi, Leanne!

                I believe it serves Klemp's purpose to bring out the
                female eck masters since it will allow him to place Joan
                in a position of authority beside him, like co-L.E.M.
                After reading his book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                it seems that Klemp is inserting the idea in a somewhat
                subtle way that Joan would be elevated to eck master.
                However, for the slow learning chela, when reflecting
                back to this book, it is obvious that Joan had already
                become an eck master, just like Kata Daki. Klemp spins
                Joan into some of the stories showing how she is acting
                like an eck master--well, the book is interesting to read
                when you look for this subtle slight of hand that Klemp
                is doing regarding Joan.

                Klemp is looking at his age and energy in staying at the
                helm of the eck org. He had asserted at one time that he
                would hold the leadership position 10 to 20 years, but he
                has well exceeded it now. And it doesn't look like he is anytime
                soon ready to step down.

                In "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," pages 235-236, Klemp
                addresses how long he would serve as L.E.M and if any initiates
                were in training. He wrote: ". . . a few initiates were indeed
                in training for leadership in ECK, but no one was ready yet
                to assume the responsibility. It might take several years or
                many more for the first one to complete all the tests. Accordingly,
                the Master would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta,
                the Living ECK Master."

                So, H.I.'s and the power players like Peter Skelsky still have
                a long wait to become the next chosen one. Quite a contrast
                to how long Klemp waited! LOL! But Klemp is still holding on
                to the power and seems intent not to let go--and the "another
                cycle" would be how long, 12 years?

                Klemp needs Joan though because he can't trust sharing the
                limelight with anyone else. He most likely fears that he might
                suffer the same fate as Darwin--he might have done unto him
                what he did to Gross! : )

                Klemp paves the way for Joan becoming a female eck master
                by giving Kata Daki the same attention he does to the other
                eck masters in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," by devoting
                a chapter to each, including a chapter for this female eck master.
                Klemp explains that now is the time for the female masters to
                appear with this explanation on page 63:

                "Before we get too far along, we need to say a word about
                the female members of the Vairagi Order. There are precious
                few of them in relation to the number of males, and it is for
                a good reason. In past ages, and sometimes even today, it
                was easier for a male to move about in harsh societies and
                environments. So a Soul that had earned the right to incarnate
                into a lifetime devoted to the quest for Mastership often chose
                a male body. It was simply easier to get around in. That is not
                to say the individual's quest for truth was easier. It was not. . . . "

                Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
                that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
                in becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
                men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
                course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
                reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's predecessor,
                as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
                official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
                by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
                brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
                and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp.

                So, bringing out female eck masters today fits in with the
                continuing conning of the chelas--Klemp is revising the teachings
                to suit his specific purposes. He needs Joan to have some legitimate
                power in order to help him hold onto the reins of the eck org.

                Role and rolling, very funny! : )

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
                <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women eck masters (something to do with
                energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan Klemps
                role(maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they are changing their tune now. Whatever
                happened to Grahm ???? who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
                experiences in a book?
                >  
                > Leanne
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, I think Mish explained Klemp s slight of hand tactics rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK Masters was written Klemp talked about being
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 4, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  I think Mish explained Klemp's slight of hand tactics
                  rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK
                  Masters was written Klemp talked about being around
                  for another (12 year) cycle. Therefore, Klemp is planning
                  to stay for Three 12 year cycles, or 36 years. So, HK's
                  reign is to be from 1981-2017! Or, would that be 2018!
                  Klemp was 39 years old (1942) when DG made him the
                  LEM. Klemp is 66 years old now, as is, his first wife and
                  8th initiate Marge. I think Gail (who "made" Darwin) is
                  67 years old and Joan is still 65. Anyway, Klemp doesn't
                  want to let go of all his powers (as Mahanta) until he is
                  75 or 76 years old! This is Why HK needs Joan to help
                  him with the running of the org.

                  Therefore, Klemp needs to pave the way for Joan becoming
                  the next LEM or Co-LEM. For Klemp to say that there is
                  no one ready after 27 years is a lie! Besides, some of these
                  ECKists have been members as long as he has, thus, they
                  have been "in training" for 40 years! Anyway, this is why
                  Klemp is placing Joan on the same level with Kata Daki (KD).
                  Even Kata Daki is a fake EK Master and was created 9 years
                  after Twitchell's sister's (Kay-Dee) death. Anyway, this is
                  what the older H.I.s have to look forward to. Eventually,
                  (by 2017 or 2018) someone, Marge and Harold's daughter's
                  age, will become the next Emperor of Eckankar.

                  On another note:
                  As far as when Twitchell first created and spoke of Rebazar?
                  I think PT probably created RT around 1955. This was when
                  Kirpal Singh first came to the U.S. and this was when Twitchell
                  was initiated by Kirpal. PT had been writing fiction, plagiarizing,
                  exaggerating (to extremes at times) and using name and word
                  substitution in his articles from almost day one! IMO Twit simply
                  used Kirpal's status and example and Ruhani Satsang dogma
                  to form the basis for his fictional character of (master) Rebazar
                  Tarzs.

                  Prometheus


                  Leanne wrote:
                  I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women
                  eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego .)
                  ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan
                  Klemps role (maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they
                  are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ????
                  who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
                  experiences in a book?


                  Mish wrote:
                  [snip]
                  "Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
                  that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
                  to becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
                  men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
                  course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
                  reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's successor,
                  as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
                  official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
                  by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
                  brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
                  and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp."


                  Etznab wrote:
                  "Doing research about Eckankar
                  history for educational purposes
                  I am attempting to clarify some
                  dates.

                  Primarily, When did Paul and
                  Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
                  but not certain of day and month)
                  And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
                  appear in print.

                  I'd asked "these" questions on
                  A.R.E., but so far no response.

                  Do you have the date someplace
                  in your archives for when Paul and
                  Gail were married? Want to hazard
                  a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
                  first appeared in print?"
                • Leanne Thompson
                  Will klemp collect social security as a man or eck master?   Leanne ... From: prometheus_973 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous]
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 4, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Will klemp collect social security as a man or eck master?

                     

                    Leanne

                    --- On Fri, 7/4/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Women Eckmasters... Now or Never Were???
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 11:08 AM

                    Hello All,
                    I think Mish explained Klemp's slight of hand tactics
                    rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK
                    Masters was written Klemp talked about being around
                    for another (12 year) cycle. Therefore, Klemp is planning
                    to stay for Three 12 year cycles, or 36 years. So, HK's
                    reign is to be from 1981-2017! Or, would that be 2018!
                    Klemp was 39 years old (1942) when DG made him the
                    LEM. Klemp is 66 years old now, as is, his first wife and
                    8th initiate Marge. I think Gail (who "made" Darwin) is
                    67 years old and Joan is still 65. Anyway, Klemp doesn't
                    want to let go of all his powers (as Mahanta) until he is
                    75 or 76 years old! This is Why HK needs Joan to help
                    him with the running of the org.

                    Therefore, Klemp needs to pave the way for Joan becoming
                    the next LEM or Co-LEM. For Klemp to say that there is
                    no one ready after 27 years is a lie! Besides, some of these
                    ECKists have been members as long as he has, thus, they
                    have been "in training" for 40 years! Anyway, this is why
                    Klemp is placing Joan on the same level with Kata Daki (KD).
                    Even Kata Daki is a fake EK Master and was created 9 years
                    after Twitchell's sister's (Kay-Dee) death. Anyway, this is
                    what the older H.I.s have to look forward to. Eventually,
                    (by 2017 or 2018) someone, Marge and Harold's daughter's
                    age, will become the next Emperor of Eckankar.

                    On another note:
                    As far as when Twitchell first created and spoke of Rebazar?
                    I think PT probably created RT around 1955. This was when
                    Kirpal Singh first came to the U.S. and this was when Twitchell
                    was initiated by Kirpal. PT had been writing fiction, plagiarizing,
                    exaggerating (to extremes at times) and using name and word
                    substitution in his articles from almost day one! IMO Twit simply
                    used Kirpal's status and example and Ruhani Satsang dogma
                    to form the basis for his fictional character of (master) Rebazar
                    Tarzs.

                    Prometheus

                    Leanne wrote:
                    I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women
                    eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego .)
                    ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan
                    Klemps role (maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they
                    are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ????
                    who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
                    experiences in a book?

                    Mish wrote:
                    [snip]
                    "Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
                    that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
                    to becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
                    men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
                    course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
                    reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's successor,
                    as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
                    official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
                    by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
                    brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
                    and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp."

                    Etznab wrote:
                    "Doing research about Eckankar
                    history for educational purposes
                    I am attempting to clarify some
                    dates.

                    Primarily, When did Paul and
                    Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
                    but not certain of day and month)
                    And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
                    appear in print.

                    I'd asked "these" questions on
                    A.R.E., but so far no response.

                    Do you have the date someplace
                    in your archives for when Paul and
                    Gail were married? Want to hazard
                    a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
                    first appeared in print?"


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