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Doug Marman's Books "The Whole Truth", and "The Silent Questions"

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  • ringing_radience
    Hello everyone, This my first post. Has anyone read either of these two newer books by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug s current stance is on Eckankar,
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 2 11:50 AM
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      Hello everyone,

      This my first post.

      Has anyone read either of these two newer books by Doug Marman? Does
      anyone know what Doug's current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
      and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest writings of his? I
      stumbled onto Doug's web site while doing some research.

      If you are not familiar with these books, you can read about them here:

      http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html

      Thanks!
    • prometheus_973
      Hello, Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who stated on Ford Johnson s (former) Truth-Seeker Site that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 2 1:15 PM
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        Hello,
        Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
        stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
        that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
        that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!

        Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
        for yourself!

        I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
        but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
        knows too many dirty little details and where the
        skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
        him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
        so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
        inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
        Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
        Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
        the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
        as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
        equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
        (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
        HK's Eckankar Lexicon!

        Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
        and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
        of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
        dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
        or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
        January 1969.

        PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
        in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
        of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
        past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
        from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
        was experimenting with various titles for himself
        and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!

        Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
        because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
        has time and money and friendships invested, and because
        he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
        have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
        a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
        breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!

        If you want to read current views held by Marman
        then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.

        Prometheus

        ringing_radience wrote:
        >
        Hello everyone,
        >
        This my first post.
        >
        Has anyone read either of these two newer books
        by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
        current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
        and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
        writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
        while doing some research.
        >
        If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
        about them here:
        >
        http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
        >
        Thanks!
        >
      • ringing_radience
        Thanks for your response prometheus_973. To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here was to find out if anyone here has actually read
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 2 1:45 PM
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          Thanks for your response prometheus_973.

          To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
          was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
          newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
          trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
          to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
          is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
          ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
          Eckankar movement?

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello,
          > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
          > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
          > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
          > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
          >
          > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
          > for yourself!
          >
          > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
          > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
          > knows too many dirty little details and where the
          > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
          > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
          > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
          > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
          > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
          > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
          > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
          > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
          > equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
          > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
          > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
          >
          > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
          > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
          > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
          > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
          > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
          > January 1969.
          >
          > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
          > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
          > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
          > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
          > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
          > was experimenting with various titles for himself
          > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
          >
          > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
          > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
          > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
          > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
          > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
          > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
          > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
          >
          > If you want to read current views held by Marman
          > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > ringing_radience wrote:
          > >
          > Hello everyone,
          > >
          > This my first post.
          > >
          > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
          > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
          > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
          > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
          > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
          > while doing some research.
          > >
          > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
          > about them here:
          > >
          > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
          > >
          > Thanks!
          > >
          >
        • mishmisha9
          It s all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : ) Hi, ringing_radience! Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have mentioned him
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 2 3:00 PM
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            It's all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : )

            Hi, ringing_radience!

            Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have
            mentioned him from time to time, but ESA's focus is on Twitchell
            and Klemp--especially Klemp since he is the current leader (25
            years plus) of the scamming org. called eckankar. However, I
            have read some of his excerpts and also the dialogues that Doug
            Marman has presented on other websites. I do not care to
            read his stuff--I don't really see the point. I think he has stated
            that he is not an official spokesman for eckankar anyway. Besides,
            Doug himself has mentioned that "The Whole Truth" wasn't really
            the whole truth! : ) But it is interesting that you are wondering
            what his purpose is--maybe Doug is preparing for when Harold
            does step down, anticipating a splinter group that he might
            capture away from the original org? That's an interesting idea
            and maybe a possibility. Of course, we have discussed here that
            Harold has been trying to situate Joan in a more powerful
            position, such as co-L.E.M., in order for Harold to hold the
            power for a longer time. I suppose Harold's afraid of what will
            become of eckankar after he's gone--maybe a big ditching of
            all of his books, talks, writings, pics, etc. Sort of like what
            happened with Darwin, perhaps? Lots of speculations of course,
            but Harold's actions and words do make one wonder, doesn't
            it.

            (Top two reasons I've not read Marman's books: 1. I don't
            want to pay him for his books; 2. I don't want to expend the
            time.)

            Right now, I'm waiting for Klemp to come out with his next
            exciting book--"Those Wonderful ECK Masters" was a jewel
            for sure!! It should be fun to read and review a next book by
            Harold. LOL! Have you read "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"--
            it's a fun read and sort of clever of Harold the way he plays
            with the concept of female eck masters just now coming out and
            how Joan is also written about in this book about eck masters. . . .

            Welcome to the site!

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ringing_radience"
            <ringing_radience@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for your response prometheus_973.
            >
            > To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
            > was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
            > newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
            > trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
            > to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
            > is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
            > ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
            > Eckankar movement?
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello,
            > > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
            > > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
            > > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
            > > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
            > >
            > > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
            > > for yourself!
            > >
            > > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
            > > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
            > > knows too many dirty little details and where the
            > > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
            > > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
            > > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
            > > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
            > > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
            > > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
            > > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
            > > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
            > > equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
            > > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
            > > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
            > >
            > > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
            > > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
            > > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
            > > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
            > > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
            > > January 1969.
            > >
            > > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
            > > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
            > > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
            > > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
            > > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
            > > was experimenting with various titles for himself
            > > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
            > >
            > > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
            > > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
            > > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
            > > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
            > > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
            > > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
            > > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
            > >
            > > If you want to read current views held by Marman
            > > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > ringing_radience wrote:
            > > >
            > > Hello everyone,
            > > >
            > > This my first post.
            > > >
            > > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
            > > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
            > > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
            > > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
            > > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
            > > while doing some research.
            > > >
            > > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
            > > about them here:
            > > >
            > > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
            > > >
            > > Thanks!
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Mish and All, I liked your post! I think that Marman s real motives for doing what he s doing stems from ego. He likes to talk and talk and talk. He seems
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 3 5:10 AM
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              Hi Mish and All,
              I liked your post! I think that Marman's real
              motives for doing what he's doing stems from
              ego. He likes to talk and talk and talk. He seems
              to need the attention (and money).

              Marman talks about Twitchell's distortions (lies)
              and even of how PT substituted fictional characters
              and names for real people, but explains this away
              as being some sort of "paradox!" LOL! However,
              a Lie is still a Lie! Apparently, "outer" lies justify
              the "higher" message. But Twitchell lied about
              that as well!

              By Any Means Necessary is not the foundation
              by which to build trust or an organization, but
              it does seem to fit perfectly with the philosophy
              that other religions and governments tend to
              practice continuously! Therefore, Twitchell's and
              Klemp's Eckankar Church is in good company!

              Doug doesn't understand that the "inner"
              imaginations and "spiritual" experiences
              and "miracles" of other people in other
              religions, outside of Eckankar, are even more
              valid than those "experiences" that members
              of Eckankar have! There are far more and
              far greater "spiritual" experiences and
              "inspiration" Outside of Eckankar than Inside
              of Eckankar!

              For example: Rumi was Not an ECKist regardless
              of what the liars claim! Besides, as I've stated before...
              Klemp talks out of both sides of his mouth
              when he promotes Rumi to ECKists while putting
              down Rumi's religion (i.e. beliefs and inspiration)
              as being from a 2nd or 4th Plane God who Klemp,
              as well as, PT's EK Dogma claims is KAL or SATAN!

              Just look at HK's comments in his "Autobiography
              of a Modern Prophet" on page 385. Also, look
              at the index in the Shariyat (EK's Holy Book) for
              "Satan" and you will discover that this is another
              name for Kal.

              Klemp (Marman & Eckankar) see the "God" that
              all other religions worship as being a 2nd or 4th
              Plane God who is also known as Kal and Satan!
              Whereas, Klemp (the walking talking and real God)
              claims to reside on all planes up to and including
              the 14th Plane... and even higher! Amazing... No,
              not really... it's an obvious lie! Klemp is more like
              a second class Pope, or a Billy Graham poser!

              Really! Klemp can't even heal his loyal followers of
              cancer! 4th Plane Jesus would be able to!

              The proof is in the pudding! This seems to be
              a blind spot for all ECKists, especially, Marman!
              And, reality requires more than just a vivid imagination,
              and positive thinking. Being in denial of Truth is
              the real sickness!

              What it really comes down to is Don't Trust Anyone
              to tell you about God or Spirit or Soul... trust yourself!

              If you can't trust yourself (yet) just don't buy into the
              whole load of what others are telling you. Take what
              you need or works for you the individual Soul at this
              time. Unfortunately, most ECKists will claim to use this
              method, as well, but they delude themselves. They
              need to pay that annual membership "donation" in
              order to still be eligible for those coveted initiations
              and they "need" to be co-dependent upon a middleman/
              Mahanta for their "spiritual" validation to exist!

              Klemp teaches ECKists to become powerless and unable
              to take responsibility for their own actions. The chela gives
              all power over to the "Inner Master" (Klemp) and thereby
              denies their own. EK chelas and H.I.s should have an end
              goal in mind for this lifetime. This should lead to Self-Mastery
              absent of religion, religious leaders and middlemen!

              It's a real Catch-22 ploy but those like Klemp, as well
              as his underlings, will use various tactics to twist the
              truth in order to manipulate those fearful, gullible and
              trusting. Once one has elevated another to a pedestal
              to be admired it usually takes a real shock or revelation
              to show one the Truth. Until that happens one can only
              point out the similarities of Eckankar to other religious
              frauds! ECKists need to think back to their real spiritual
              goals before joining Eckankar... it didn't have anything
              to do with initiation numbers!

              Prometheus


              mishmisha wrote:
              >
              > It's all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : )
              >
              > Hi, ringing_radience!
              >
              > Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have
              > mentioned him from time to time, but ESA's focus is on Twitchell
              > and Klemp--especially Klemp since he is the current leader (25
              > years plus) of the scamming org. called eckankar. However, I
              > have read some of his excerpts and also the dialogues that Doug
              > Marman has presented on other websites. I do not care to
              > read his stuff--I don't really see the point. I think he has stated
              > that he is not an official spokesman for eckankar anyway. Besides,
              > Doug himself has mentioned that "The Whole Truth" wasn't really
              > the whole truth! : ) But it is interesting that you are wondering
              > what his purpose is--maybe Doug is preparing for when Harold
              > does step down, anticipating a splinter group that he might
              > capture away from the original org? That's an interesting idea
              > and maybe a possibility. Of course, we have discussed here that
              > Harold has been trying to situate Joan in a more powerful
              > position, such as co-L.E.M., in order for Harold to hold the
              > power for a longer time. I suppose Harold's afraid of what will
              > become of eckankar after he's gone--maybe a big ditching of
              > all of his books, talks, writings, pics, etc. Sort of like what
              > happened with Darwin, perhaps? Lots of speculations of course,
              > but Harold's actions and words do make one wonder, doesn't
              > it.
              >
              > (Top two reasons I've not read Marman's books: 1. I don't
              > want to pay him for his books; 2. I don't want to expend the
              > time.)
              >
              > Right now, I'm waiting for Klemp to come out with his next
              > exciting book--"Those Wonderful ECK Masters" was a jewel
              > for sure!! It should be fun to read and review a next book by
              > Harold. LOL! Have you read "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"--
              > it's a fun read and sort of clever of Harold the way he plays
              > with the concept of female eck masters just now coming out and
              > how Joan is also written about in this book about eck masters. . . .
              >
              > Welcome to the site!
              >
              > Mish
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ringing_radience"
              > <ringing_radience@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks for your response prometheus_973.
              > >
              > > To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
              > > was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
              > > newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
              > > trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
              > > to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
              > > is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
              > > ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
              > > Eckankar movement?
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello,
              > > > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
              > > > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
              > > > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
              > > > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
              > > >
              > > > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
              > > > for yourself!
              > > >
              > > > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
              > > > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
              > > > knows too many dirty little details and where the
              > > > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
              > > > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
              > > > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
              > > > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
              > > > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
              > > > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
              > > > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
              > > > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
              > > > equal a 13th Century 2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
              > > > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
              > > > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
              > > >
              > > > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
              > > > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
              > > > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
              > > > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
              > > > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
              > > > January 1969.
              > > >
              > > > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
              > > > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
              > > > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
              > > > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
              > > > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
              > > > was experimenting with various titles for himself
              > > > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
              > > >
              > > > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
              > > > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
              > > > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
              > > > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
              > > > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
              > > > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
              > > > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
              > > >
              > > > If you want to read current views held by Marman
              > > > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > > ringing_radience wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > Hello everyone,
              > > > >
              > > > This my first post.
              > > > >
              > > > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
              > > > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
              > > > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
              > > > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
              > > > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
              > > > while doing some research.
              > > > >
              > > > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
              > > > about them here:
              > > > >
              > > > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
              > > > >
              > > > Thanks!
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Leanne Thompson
              I read somewhere that there couldn t be any women eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 3 5:57 PM
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                I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan Klemps role(maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ???? who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his experiences in a book?

                 

                Leanne


              • mishmisha9
                Hi, Leanne! I believe it serves Klemp s purpose to bring out the female eck masters since it will allow him to place Joan in a position of authority beside
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 3 10:23 PM
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                  Hi, Leanne!

                  I believe it serves Klemp's purpose to bring out the
                  female eck masters since it will allow him to place Joan
                  in a position of authority beside him, like co-L.E.M.
                  After reading his book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
                  it seems that Klemp is inserting the idea in a somewhat
                  subtle way that Joan would be elevated to eck master.
                  However, for the slow learning chela, when reflecting
                  back to this book, it is obvious that Joan had already
                  become an eck master, just like Kata Daki. Klemp spins
                  Joan into some of the stories showing how she is acting
                  like an eck master--well, the book is interesting to read
                  when you look for this subtle slight of hand that Klemp
                  is doing regarding Joan.

                  Klemp is looking at his age and energy in staying at the
                  helm of the eck org. He had asserted at one time that he
                  would hold the leadership position 10 to 20 years, but he
                  has well exceeded it now. And it doesn't look like he is anytime
                  soon ready to step down.

                  In "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," pages 235-236, Klemp
                  addresses how long he would serve as L.E.M and if any initiates
                  were in training. He wrote: ". . . a few initiates were indeed
                  in training for leadership in ECK, but no one was ready yet
                  to assume the responsibility. It might take several years or
                  many more for the first one to complete all the tests. Accordingly,
                  the Master would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta,
                  the Living ECK Master."

                  So, H.I.'s and the power players like Peter Skelsky still have
                  a long wait to become the next chosen one. Quite a contrast
                  to how long Klemp waited! LOL! But Klemp is still holding on
                  to the power and seems intent not to let go--and the "another
                  cycle" would be how long, 12 years?

                  Klemp needs Joan though because he can't trust sharing the
                  limelight with anyone else. He most likely fears that he might
                  suffer the same fate as Darwin--he might have done unto him
                  what he did to Gross! : )

                  Klemp paves the way for Joan becoming a female eck master
                  by giving Kata Daki the same attention he does to the other
                  eck masters in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," by devoting
                  a chapter to each, including a chapter for this female eck master.
                  Klemp explains that now is the time for the female masters to
                  appear with this explanation on page 63:

                  "Before we get too far along, we need to say a word about
                  the female members of the Vairagi Order. There are precious
                  few of them in relation to the number of males, and it is for
                  a good reason. In past ages, and sometimes even today, it
                  was easier for a male to move about in harsh societies and
                  environments. So a Soul that had earned the right to incarnate
                  into a lifetime devoted to the quest for Mastership often chose
                  a male body. It was simply easier to get around in. That is not
                  to say the individual's quest for truth was easier. It was not. . . . "

                  Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
                  that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
                  in becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
                  men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
                  course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
                  reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's predecessor,
                  as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
                  official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
                  by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
                  brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
                  and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp.

                  So, bringing out female eck masters today fits in with the
                  continuing conning of the chelas--Klemp is revising the teachings
                  to suit his specific purposes. He needs Joan to have some legitimate
                  power in order to help him hold onto the reins of the eck org.

                  Role and rolling, very funny! : )

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
                  <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women eck masters (something to do with
                  energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan Klemps
                  role(maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they are changing their tune now. Whatever
                  happened to Grahm ???? who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
                  experiences in a book?
                  >  
                  > Leanne
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello All, I think Mish explained Klemp s slight of hand tactics rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK Masters was written Klemp talked about being
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 4 11:08 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello All,
                    I think Mish explained Klemp's slight of hand tactics
                    rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK
                    Masters was written Klemp talked about being around
                    for another (12 year) cycle. Therefore, Klemp is planning
                    to stay for Three 12 year cycles, or 36 years. So, HK's
                    reign is to be from 1981-2017! Or, would that be 2018!
                    Klemp was 39 years old (1942) when DG made him the
                    LEM. Klemp is 66 years old now, as is, his first wife and
                    8th initiate Marge. I think Gail (who "made" Darwin) is
                    67 years old and Joan is still 65. Anyway, Klemp doesn't
                    want to let go of all his powers (as Mahanta) until he is
                    75 or 76 years old! This is Why HK needs Joan to help
                    him with the running of the org.

                    Therefore, Klemp needs to pave the way for Joan becoming
                    the next LEM or Co-LEM. For Klemp to say that there is
                    no one ready after 27 years is a lie! Besides, some of these
                    ECKists have been members as long as he has, thus, they
                    have been "in training" for 40 years! Anyway, this is why
                    Klemp is placing Joan on the same level with Kata Daki (KD).
                    Even Kata Daki is a fake EK Master and was created 9 years
                    after Twitchell's sister's (Kay-Dee) death. Anyway, this is
                    what the older H.I.s have to look forward to. Eventually,
                    (by 2017 or 2018) someone, Marge and Harold's daughter's
                    age, will become the next Emperor of Eckankar.

                    On another note:
                    As far as when Twitchell first created and spoke of Rebazar?
                    I think PT probably created RT around 1955. This was when
                    Kirpal Singh first came to the U.S. and this was when Twitchell
                    was initiated by Kirpal. PT had been writing fiction, plagiarizing,
                    exaggerating (to extremes at times) and using name and word
                    substitution in his articles from almost day one! IMO Twit simply
                    used Kirpal's status and example and Ruhani Satsang dogma
                    to form the basis for his fictional character of (master) Rebazar
                    Tarzs.

                    Prometheus


                    Leanne wrote:
                    I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women
                    eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego .)
                    ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan
                    Klemps role (maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they
                    are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ????
                    who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
                    experiences in a book?


                    Mish wrote:
                    [snip]
                    "Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
                    that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
                    to becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
                    men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
                    course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
                    reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's successor,
                    as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
                    official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
                    by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
                    brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
                    and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp."


                    Etznab wrote:
                    "Doing research about Eckankar
                    history for educational purposes
                    I am attempting to clarify some
                    dates.

                    Primarily, When did Paul and
                    Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
                    but not certain of day and month)
                    And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
                    appear in print.

                    I'd asked "these" questions on
                    A.R.E., but so far no response.

                    Do you have the date someplace
                    in your archives for when Paul and
                    Gail were married? Want to hazard
                    a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
                    first appeared in print?"
                  • Leanne Thompson
                    Will klemp collect social security as a man or eck master?   Leanne ... From: prometheus_973 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous]
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jul 4 2:04 PM
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Will klemp collect social security as a man or eck master?

                       

                      Leanne

                      --- On Fri, 7/4/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Women Eckmasters... Now or Never Were???
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 11:08 AM

                      Hello All,
                      I think Mish explained Klemp's slight of hand tactics
                      rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK
                      Masters was written Klemp talked about being around
                      for another (12 year) cycle. Therefore, Klemp is planning
                      to stay for Three 12 year cycles, or 36 years. So, HK's
                      reign is to be from 1981-2017! Or, would that be 2018!
                      Klemp was 39 years old (1942) when DG made him the
                      LEM. Klemp is 66 years old now, as is, his first wife and
                      8th initiate Marge. I think Gail (who "made" Darwin) is
                      67 years old and Joan is still 65. Anyway, Klemp doesn't
                      want to let go of all his powers (as Mahanta) until he is
                      75 or 76 years old! This is Why HK needs Joan to help
                      him with the running of the org.

                      Therefore, Klemp needs to pave the way for Joan becoming
                      the next LEM or Co-LEM. For Klemp to say that there is
                      no one ready after 27 years is a lie! Besides, some of these
                      ECKists have been members as long as he has, thus, they
                      have been "in training" for 40 years! Anyway, this is why
                      Klemp is placing Joan on the same level with Kata Daki (KD).
                      Even Kata Daki is a fake EK Master and was created 9 years
                      after Twitchell's sister's (Kay-Dee) death. Anyway, this is
                      what the older H.I.s have to look forward to. Eventually,
                      (by 2017 or 2018) someone, Marge and Harold's daughter's
                      age, will become the next Emperor of Eckankar.

                      On another note:
                      As far as when Twitchell first created and spoke of Rebazar?
                      I think PT probably created RT around 1955. This was when
                      Kirpal Singh first came to the U.S. and this was when Twitchell
                      was initiated by Kirpal. PT had been writing fiction, plagiarizing,
                      exaggerating (to extremes at times) and using name and word
                      substitution in his articles from almost day one! IMO Twit simply
                      used Kirpal's status and example and Ruhani Satsang dogma
                      to form the basis for his fictional character of (master) Rebazar
                      Tarzs.

                      Prometheus

                      Leanne wrote:
                      I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women
                      eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego .)
                      ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan
                      Klemps role (maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they
                      are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ????
                      who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
                      experiences in a book?

                      Mish wrote:
                      [snip]
                      "Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
                      that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
                      to becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
                      men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
                      course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
                      reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's successor,
                      as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
                      official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
                      by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
                      brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
                      and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp."

                      Etznab wrote:
                      "Doing research about Eckankar
                      history for educational purposes
                      I am attempting to clarify some
                      dates.

                      Primarily, When did Paul and
                      Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
                      but not certain of day and month)
                      And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
                      appear in print.

                      I'd asked "these" questions on
                      A.R.E., but so far no response.

                      Do you have the date someplace
                      in your archives for when Paul and
                      Gail were married? Want to hazard
                      a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
                      first appeared in print?"


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