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For ECKists: Who is more Powerful?

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  • prometheus_973
    Who is more powerful? Is it the 4th Plane KAL (God), or the 12th Plane Living ECK Master (LEM)? I recently saw on the news where northwestern Minnesota had
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 7, 2008
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      Who is more powerful? Is it the 4th Plane KAL
      (God), or the 12th Plane Living ECK Master (LEM)?

      I recently saw on the news where northwestern
      Minnesota had some tornado damage. Can't the
      LEM "protect" people within a hundred mile circle
      of the Temple of ECK?

      If one would put HK's claims into perspective then
      these 27 years of Klemp's reign should be seen as
      a "historical" point-in-time where a "Living God/man"
      has walked the earth!

      And, Klemp claims to be even more powerful than
      KAL the 4th Plane God (i.e. Satan). Therefore, Klemp
      has power over all forms of Karma and of everything
      in the Lower Planes. Why then wouldn't HK, the LEM,
      thwart Satan's negative actions and karmic responses
      via the LEM's Grace?!

      This, of course, doesn't involve the "inner" Mahanta.
      This recourse, for the LEM to correct, only involves
      the outer and Lower Planes. So, once again, why was
      there bad weather during the EK Springtime Seminar
      and tornadoes within 100 miles of the "spiritual" Temple
      of ECK?

      The LEM's position doesn't make sense when put to the
      test and is placed into proper perspective. That's because
      Eckankar is just another fake religion that requires belief
      and faith in someone "greater" than you. The use of promises
      and vivid imaginations give hope to those who are fearful
      and feel powerless. I thought most ECKists were more
      intelligent, or has ego gotten in the way!

      This typical religious dogma, also, increases the desire
      to climb to greater "spiritual" heights (initiations/positions)
      over others and and creates more ego needs, as well as,
      more weakness/dependency on "outer" guidance from
      EK materials purchased ($).

      But, for ECKists, it's all been said, copied, edited, and
      rewritten by Twitchell. Everything Klemp has to say is just
      the same old thing over and over but repackaged! Aren't
      ECKists getting tired of the same old crap coming from
      the mouth of a tired old poser... Klemp! What does it take
      to wake up to the contradictions and to the Catch-22
      game being played?

      Why do Spiritually Advanced/Awakened Souls need
      any religious crutch? Responsibility and Independency
      via a Union with Spirit and other Souls (outside of hierarchies)
      is all one needs!


      Prometheus
    • mishmisha9
      Prometheus asked: Why do Spiritually Advanced/Awakened Souls need any religious crutch? Because those who seek orgs. like Eckankar and a middle man like
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 8, 2008
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        Prometheus asked:
        "Why do Spiritually Advanced/Awakened Souls need
        any religious crutch?"

        Because those who seek orgs. like Eckankar and a middle
        man like Klemp are not spiritually advanced or awakened souls.
        These sorts of individuals (chelas) do not believe in themselves
        so they try to believe in something else that will help them
        develop the confidence they are so greatly lacking. The
        problem with eckankar and Klemp is that it will keep them
        beaten down and unable to achieve that which they so badly
        need--self-esteem, happiness and just the joy of living! They
        become entrapped and enslaved in goofy religious dogma
        and in the end the only ego they are feeding is that of the
        delusional Klemp.

        Right now these "princes" (chosen ones) are under the delusion
        that they are traveling in the "Rolls Royce" (eckankar) on their
        way to Sugmad while at the same time they are scrabbling to
        figure out how they can find the cheapest/affordable airline
        tickets for their next cult vacation--to Minneapolis in Oct. to pay
        homage and tribute to their scrawny little fake master Klemp. This is
        where their attention, money and time is focused. And Klemp is
        all too happy to boss them around, take their money and use up
        their free time (vacation days) in freeze your arse Minnesota!

        This would be really funny if it wasn't true! Eckists are spiritual
        seekers who have lost their way. Advice: quit putting crimps in
        your necks by looking up to and adulating Klemp. He is not, never
        has been and never will be the greatest consciousness known to
        mankind! It's all delusion and believing it makes one delusional!

        Mish

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Who is more powerful? Is it the 4th Plane KAL
        > (God), or the 12th Plane Living ECK Master (LEM)?
        >
        > I recently saw on the news where northwestern
        > Minnesota had some tornado damage. Can't the
        > LEM "protect" people within a hundred mile circle
        > of the Temple of ECK?
        >
        > If one would put HK's claims into perspective then
        > these 27 years of Klemp's reign should be seen as
        > a "historical" point-in-time where a "Living God/man"
        > has walked the earth!
        >
        > And, Klemp claims to be even more powerful than
        > KAL the 4th Plane God (i.e. Satan). Therefore, Klemp
        > has power over all forms of Karma and of everything
        > in the Lower Planes. Why then wouldn't HK, the LEM,
        > thwart Satan's negative actions and karmic responses
        > via the LEM's Grace?!
        >
        > This, of course, doesn't involve the "inner" Mahanta.
        > This recourse, for the LEM to correct, only involves
        > the outer and Lower Planes. So, once again, why was
        > there bad weather during the EK Springtime Seminar
        > and tornadoes within 100 miles of the "spiritual" Temple
        > of ECK?
        >
        > The LEM's position doesn't make sense when put to the
        > test and is placed into proper perspective. That's because
        > Eckankar is just another fake religion that requires belief
        > and faith in someone "greater" than you. The use of promises
        > and vivid imaginations give hope to those who are fearful
        > and feel powerless. I thought most ECKists were more
        > intelligent, or has ego gotten in the way!
        >
        > This typical religious dogma, also, increases the desire
        > to climb to greater "spiritual" heights (initiations/positions)
        > over others and and creates more ego needs, as well as,
        > more weakness/dependency on "outer" guidance from
        > EK materials purchased ($).
        >
        > But, for ECKists, it's all been said, copied, edited, and
        > rewritten by Twitchell. Everything Klemp has to say is just
        > the same old thing over and over but repackaged! Aren't
        > ECKists getting tired of the same old crap coming from
        > the mouth of a tired old poser... Klemp! What does it take
        > to wake up to the contradictions and to the Catch-22
        > game being played?
        >
        > Why do Spiritually Advanced/Awakened Souls need
        > any religious crutch? Responsibility and Independency
        > via a Union with Spirit and other Souls (outside of hierarchies)
        > is all one needs!
        >
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Mish and All, You re right! After 6, 7, 8, and 9 initiations and 30 plus years most of these ECKists aren t any more Spiritually Advanced or Awakened than
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 8, 2008
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          Hi Mish and All,
          You're right! After 6, 7, 8, and 9 initiations and
          30 plus years most of these ECKists aren't any
          more "Spiritually Advanced or Awakened" than
          they were 20 (or more) years ago if at all! Many,
          like Klemp, are posers (weak, deluded and suggestible)
          who actually exhibit arrested development that
          they pass off as a quirky uniqueness which, supposedly,
          depicts the unknown qualities of a pre-master or
          "Master" (Catch-22).

          Of course, Klemp has taught his flock "how to play
          the game" via Leadership Trainings, Surrendering
          their Freedom thru Servitude, and by Keeping Silent
          of the Nonsense they hear and see (and read).

          Therefore, the longer one stays in Eckankar and
          advances up the initiation ladder the more they are
          Asleep and the Less they are "Spiritually" Advanced!
          Higher Initiation numbers reflect the years these
          people have been asleep and the degree of their
          ignorance and delusion!

          Of course, as religious leaders many H.I.s are advanced
          in P.R. methods. And some (not all) H.I.s are very nice,
          friendly, and are happy individuals as are many Christians,
          non Christians and former ECKists! So what is Klemp's
          explanation for this fact of life? Why do nasty and
          negative and stupid ECKists receive more and more
          Higher Initiations when there is supposed to be an "Inner"
          communication with the Mahanta? Just stick your head
          in the sand because it's wrong (negative) to complain
          or to question the "wisdom" behind the scenes. LOL!

          Anyhow, these EK Higher Initiates may be better at
          organizing events or at public speaking or at retelling
          EK stories and regurgitating EK dogma than they were
          in the beginning, but this doesn't have anything to do
          with real Spiritual Growth! Why does Klemp instruct EK
          Leaders to read Dale Carnegie's book in order to influence
          people?

          Why is there so much focus on secular promotion
          techniques and on the sale/purchase of EK materials
          when Klemp states: "And then they spend their money
          on things: new computer toys, new cars, new clothes
          and the like. Trying to find happiness."

          This quote is from a new book Klemp wants ECKists
          to purchase! But what's wrong with having a new computer,
          or a new car, or some new clothes? And, so what if
          having something nice makes you happy! Klemp doesn't
          want for anything in Eden Prairie, MN.! HK wants chelas
          to spent their money on EK materials and on increasing
          membership numbers for his benefit, Joan's and Peter's!

          "And they spend their money on things" like: flying to
          the 2008 EWWS, staying at an expensive hotel, eating
          in restaurants (having dessert too!), buying EK materials
          (and jewelry!), taking the Temple Tour, etc. "Trying to find
          happiness!"

          See how ridiculous it all is!

          Prometheus


          mish wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus asked:
          > "Why do Spiritually Advanced/Awakened Souls need
          > any religious crutch?"
          >
          > Because those who seek orgs. like Eckankar and a middle
          > man like Klemp are not spiritually advanced or awakened souls.
          > These sorts of individuals (chelas) do not believe in themselves
          > so they try to believe in something else that will help them
          > develop the confidence they are so greatly lacking. The
          > problem with eckankar and Klemp is that it will keep them
          > beaten down and unable to achieve that which they so badly
          > need--self-esteem, happiness and just the joy of living! They
          > become entrapped and enslaved in goofy religious dogma
          > and in the end the only ego they are feeding is that of the
          > delusional Klemp.
          >
          > Right now these "princes" (chosen ones) are under the delusion
          > that they are traveling in the "Rolls Royce" (eckankar) on their
          > way to Sugmad while at the same time they are scrabbling to
          > figure out how they can find the cheapest/affordable airline
          > tickets for their next cult vacation--to Minneapolis in Oct. to pay
          > homage and tribute to their scrawny little fake master Klemp. This is
          > where their attention, money and time is focused. And Klemp is
          > all too happy to boss them around, take their money and use up
          > their free time (vacation days) in freeze your arse Minnesota!
          >
          > This would be really funny if it wasn't true! Eckists are spiritual
          > seekers who have lost their way. Advice: quit putting crimps in
          > your necks by looking up to and adulating Klemp. He is not, never
          > has been and never will be the greatest consciousness known to
          > mankind! It's all delusion and believing it makes one delusional!
          >
          > Mish
          >
          prometheus wrote:
          > >
          Who is more powerful? Is it the 4th Plane KAL
          (God), or the 12th Plane Living ECK Master (LEM)?
          > >
          I recently saw on the news where northwestern
          Minnesota had some tornado damage. Can't the
          LEM "protect" people within a hundred mile circle
          of the Temple of ECK?
          > >
          If one would put HK's claims into perspective then
          these 27 years of Klemp's reign should be seen as
          a "historical" point-in-time where a "Living God/man"
          has walked the earth! LOL!
          > >
          And, Klemp claims to be even more powerful than
          KAL the 4th Plane God of all religions (i.e. Satan
          according to the EK Shariyat and Klemp's "Autobiography"
          pg. 385.) Therefore, Klemp (the 12th Plane LEM) has
          power over all forms of Karma and of everything in
          the Lower Planes. Why then wouldn't HK, the LEM,
          thwart Satan's negative actions and karmic responses
          via the LEM's Grace?!
          > >
          This, of course, doesn't involve the "inner" Mahanta.
          This recourse, for the LEM to correct, only involves
          the outer and Lower Planes. So, once again, why was
          there bad weather during the EK Springtime Seminar
          and tornadoes within 100 miles of the "spiritual" Temple
          of ECK?
          > >
          The LEM's position doesn't make sense when put to the
          test and is placed into proper perspective. That's because
          Eckankar is just another fake religion that requires belief
          and faith in someone "greater" than you. The use of promises
          and vivid imaginations give hope to those who are fearful
          and feel powerless. I thought most ECKists were more
          intelligent, or has ego gotten in the way!
          > >
          This typical religious dogma, also, increases the desire
          to climb to greater "spiritual" heights (initiations/positions)
          over others and and creates more ego needs, as well as,
          more weakness/dependency on "outer" guidance from
          their pseudo "master" and the one dimensional stories.
          Other EK materials are promoted for distribution, and to
          satisfy ECKists desires and needs to collect and purchase
          ($) what they imagine will help them grow, but it's always
          another disappointment for the true seeker!
          .
          > >
          But, for ECKists, it's all been said, copied, edited, and
          rewritten by Twitchell. Everything Klemp has to say is just
          the same old thing over and over but repackaged! Aren't
          ECKists getting tired of the same old crap coming from
          the mouth of a tired old poser... Klemp! What does it take
          to wake up to the contradictions and to the Catch-22
          game being played?
          > >
          Why do Spiritually Advanced/Awakened Souls need
          any religious crutch? Responsibility and Independency
          via a Union with Spirit and other Souls (outside of hierarchies)
          is all one needs!
          > >
          > >
          Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          Klemp s Black Magic focus is the current Spiritual Exercise of the Week on Eckankar.org. HK once called Darwin Gross a Black Magician, but his own lies, lack
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 12, 2008
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            Klemp's Black Magic focus is the current "Spiritual
            Exercise of the Week" on Eckankar.org. HK once
            called Darwin Gross a Black Magician, but his own
            lies, lack of abilities and unfulfilled promises show
            that Klemp is the real Black Magician via Catch-22!
            HK's transition plans were even concocted, by his
            suggestion, in the Sound Proof Dark Room, where
            HK worked, with Darwin! [Soul Travelers of the Far
            Country, Ch.7]

            Klemp continues to use superstitions and the Fear
            of "Black Magic"and Black Magicians for his benefit.
            Klemp mentions the elusive Mahanta, but what about
            the LEM (HK) and his so-called powers and abilities
            within the Lower Worlds? Klemp can't deliver because
            he's a fraud!

            [My caps]

            HK: "DEFENSE AGAINST BLACK MAGIC:

            The Forces of Black Magic are Powerful in AFRICA.
            ECKists there ask me, How can we become strong
            so that no force of Kal, the Negative Power, can
            harm us?

            First, do not look for Trouble or Anger Anyone who
            has these Powers."


            ME: Why Does Not Klemp caution non-Africans not
            to look for Trouble or Anger Anyone who has these
            Powers?


            HK: "BUT IF the Powers of Darkness are thrown against
            you, put your full attention on the Mahanta [me, HK]
            and sing, or chant, HU. See a shining light around you
            through which No Evil can penetrate, and know that
            the Mahanta in the form of a Blue Light stands by your
            side."


            ME: This same HU technique was used by Graham. And,
            high ranking ECKists have used this with no results.
            The "Blue Light" mental/vocal chanting and visualization
            represents the Mental Plane where KAL is in charge. When
            does the LEM protect ECKists in these Lower Worlds?


            HK: "Study what The Shariyat says about how to overcome
            the Dark Forces. It is important to understand what in your
            emotions has opened the door for this Power to Attack."


            ME: So, Klemp is, basically, saying that these African
            ECKists are very "emotional" (i.e. Astral) and they've
            brought it (Kal/negativity) to themselves!


            HK: "Always remember that the ECK is stronger than
            any force in the Lower Worlds. Only one who surrounds
            himself with Its presence, and knows that the Mahanta
            is with him, will be Safe." [The Spiritual Exercises of ECK]

            ME: What does the LEM do to protect ECKists? Isn't any
            LEM of the 12th Plane and isn't the KAL of the 4th Plane?

            **************************************************
            Re:

            Who is more powerful? Is it the 4th Plane KAL
            (God), or the 12th Plane Living ECK Master (LEM)?

            I recently saw on the news where northwestern
            Minnesota had some tornado damage. Can't the
            LEM "protect" people within a hundred mile circle
            of the Temple of ECK?

            If one would put HK's claims into perspective then
            these 27 years of Klemp's reign should be seen as
            a "historical" point-in-time where a "Living God/man"
            has walked the earth! LOL!

            And, Klemp claims to be even more powerful than
            KAL the 4th Plane God of all religions (i.e. Satan
            according to the EK Shariyat and Klemp's "Autobiography"
            pg. 385.) Therefore, Klemp (the 12th Plane LEM) has
            power over all forms of Karma and of everything in
            the Lower Planes. Why then wouldn't HK, the LEM,
            thwart Satan's negative actions and karmic responses
            via the LEM's Grace?!

            This, of course, doesn't involve the "inner" Mahanta.
            This recourse, for the LEM to correct, only involves
            the outer and Lower Planes. So, once again, why was
            there bad weather during the EK Springtime Seminar
            and tornadoes within 100 miles of the "spiritual" Temple
            of ECK?

            The LEM's position doesn't make sense when put to the
            test and is placed into proper perspective. That's because
            Eckankar is just another fake religion that requires belief
            and faith in someone "greater" than you. The use of promises
            and vivid imaginations give hope to those who are fearful
            and feel powerless. I thought most ECKists were more
            intelligent, or has ego gotten in the way!

            Prometheus
          • jivatmananda
            Hi All, I have been quite busy in the last few weeks, but I m not giving up posting in this group. Here is just a note of humor for now. Let s imagine for a
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 15, 2008
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              Hi All,

              I have been quite busy in the last few weeks, but I'm not giving up
              posting in this group. Here is just a note of humor for now. Let's
              imagine for a minute that Eckankar tells the truth: Black Magician
              Klemp is the true representative of God in all the universes while Kal
              is the equivalent of Satan and rules the lower worlds. Let's imagine
              that I should choose which one to serve. Well, I would definitely
              choose Kal Niranjan (actually not a joke)!

              Jivat
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jivat and All, I too would choose God (Kal) over Klemp! Here s A Seed For Contemplation from Harry s The Language of Soul that he had posted on
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 17, 2008
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                Hello Jivat and All,
                I too would choose God (Kal) over Klemp!

                Here's "A Seed For Contemplation" from
                Harry's "The Language of Soul" that he had
                posted on Eckankar.org.

                "The Holy Spirit often works through professional
                medical people to help US out when WE're in trouble.
                After all, all Healing comes from Divine Spirit,
                No Matter what It chooses as Its instrument."


                Of course Divine Spirit could, also, choose a non-
                professional as "Its instrument" since It is Not limited
                to man's laws, unless, Klemp is speaking of the KAL!

                Since "Holy/Divine Spirit" is Unlimited and can choose
                Its "instrument" why then isn't the Living ECK Master
                (HK) a Divine Healing Instrument of Spirit (the ECK)?
                Isn't it true that Klemp states that he is One With
                the ECK (Divine Spirit) and is, in fact, the ECK Itself!

                So, once again, Why doesn't Klemp (the LEM and
                Outer Master) Heal the Outer Bodies of his chelas
                directly (physically, emotionally, and mentally) versus
                these EK chelas having to pay "professional medical
                people" to "help" (heal/treat) them when "in trouble?!"
                How many ECKists get quality treatment from these
                "professionals?" Wouldn't chelas (H.I.s) avoid the quacks,
                missed diagnosis, and save money via the Klempster
                (the LEM) healing them! Why not just bypass the
                "professional" middlemen and go directly to the
                Source... Klemp, the 12/14th Plane LEM! Doesn't
                the "L" Word in LEM stand for "LIVING!" Isn't the God
                of the other religions a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/Satan)?
                And, doesn't He create miracles that Heal people!
                Why, then, can't the 12/14th Plane Living (with us)
                ECK Master (Klemp) heal his H.I.s from cancer, etc.?!

                BTW- Why does Klemp include himself by
                saying that the Holy Spirit works via "professional
                medical people to help 'us' when 'we're' in trouble?"

                If Klemp is Who and What he claims then Why is
                HK contradicting his own EK Lexicon definition given
                for the Divine LEM and Mahanta! Klemp is supposed
                to be the Divine ECK! HK claims he is the ECK (Holy
                Spirit), and one with It, while all other chelas (8ths and
                9ths included) aren't! However, if this was true Why
                would Klemp need eyeglasses, chiropractic treatments,
                and other treatments by "professional medical people?"
                Klemp, the wannabe, is giving us more double talk, lies,
                and trickery. At the most he's a minor KAL agent Who
                is impersonating another saviour!

                Wake up ECKists! Klemp needs to justify his medical
                treatments, too, by saying it is via the Holy Spirit, but
                what makes the EK experience any different from that
                of other religious believers? What, then, makes the LEM
                more special than any other preacher? Nothing, except,
                HK lacks empathy, is delusional, and leans toward New
                Age cures/products! Klemp's words, the ECK Scripture,
                dogma, and propaganda create what people need.

                ECKists should ask themselves Why they need to,
                so desperately, grab at straws and believe in another
                fake religion! But one with an old scrawny poser (HK)
                as a "Living" Guru/Master and Divine Saviour!!! What
                a joke! Twitchell is still laughing his ass off!!!


                Prometheus

                Hi All,

                I have been quite busy in the last few weeks, but
                I'm not giving up posting in this group. Here is just
                a note of humor for now. Let's imagine for a minute
                that Eckankar tells the truth: Black Magician Klemp
                is the true representative of God in all the universes
                while Kal is the equivalent of Satan and rules the
                lower worlds. Let's imagine that I should choose
                which one to serve. Well, I would definitely choose
                Kal Niranjan (actually not a joke)!

                Jivat


                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Klemp's Black Magic focus is the current "Spiritual
                > Exercise of the Week" on Eckankar.org. HK once
                > called Darwin Gross a Black Magician, but his own
                > lies, lack of abilities and unfulfilled promises show
                > that Klemp is the real Black Magician via Catch-22!
                > HK's transition plans were even concocted, by his
                > suggestion, in the Sound Proof Dark Room, where
                > HK worked, with Darwin! [Soul Travelers of the Far
                > Country, Ch.7]
                >
                > Klemp continues to use superstitions and the Fear
                > of "Black Magic"and Black Magicians for his benefit.
                > Klemp mentions the elusive Mahanta, but what about
                > the LEM (HK) and his so-called powers and abilities
                > within the Lower Worlds? Klemp can't deliver because
                > he's a fraud!
                >
                > [My caps]
                >
                > HK: "DEFENSE AGAINST BLACK MAGIC:
                >
                > The Forces of Black Magic are Powerful in AFRICA.
                > ECKists there ask me, How can we become strong
                > so that no force of Kal, the Negative Power, can
                > harm us?
                >
                > First, do not look for Trouble or Anger Anyone who
                > has these Powers."
                >
                >
                > ME: Why Does Not Klemp caution non-Africans not
                > to look for Trouble or Anger Anyone who has these
                > Powers?
                >
                >
                > HK: "BUT IF the Powers of Darkness are thrown against
                > you, put your full attention on the Mahanta [me, HK]
                > and sing, or chant, HU. See a shining light around you
                > through which No Evil can penetrate, and know that
                > the Mahanta in the form of a Blue Light stands by your
                > side."
                >
                >
                > ME: This same HU technique was used by Graham. And,
                > high ranking ECKists have used this with no results.
                > The "Blue Light" mental/vocal chanting and visualization
                > represents the Mental Plane where KAL is in charge. When
                > does the LEM protect ECKists in these Lower Worlds?
                >
                >
                > HK: "Study what The Shariyat says about how to overcome
                > the Dark Forces. It is important to understand what in your
                > emotions has opened the door for this Power to Attack."
                >
                >
                > ME: So, Klemp is, basically, saying that these African
                > ECKists are very "emotional" (i.e. Astral) and they've
                > brought it (Kal/negativity) to themselves!
                >
                >
                > HK: "Always remember that the ECK is stronger than
                > any force in the Lower Worlds. Only one who surrounds
                > himself with Its presence, and knows that the Mahanta
                > is with him, will be Safe." [The Spiritual Exercises of ECK]
                >
                > ME: What does the LEM do to protect ECKists? Isn't any
                > LEM of the 12th Plane and isn't the KAL of the 4th Plane?
                >
                > **************************************************
                > Re:
                >
                > Who is more powerful? Is it the 4th Plane KAL
                > (God), or the 12th Plane Living ECK Master (LEM)?
                >
                > I recently saw on the news where northwestern
                > Minnesota had some tornado damage. Can't the
                > LEM "protect" people within a hundred mile circle
                > of the Temple of ECK?
                >
                > If one would put HK's claims into perspective then
                > these 27 years of Klemp's reign should be seen as
                > a "historical" point-in-time where a "Living God/man"
                > has walked the earth! LOL!
                >
                > And, Klemp claims to be even more powerful than
                > KAL the 4th Plane God of all religions (i.e. Satan
                > according to the EK Shariyat and Klemp's "Autobiography"
                > pg. 385.) Therefore, Klemp (the 12th Plane LEM) has
                > power over all forms of Karma and of everything in
                > the Lower Planes. Why then wouldn't HK, the LEM,
                > thwart Satan's negative actions and karmic responses
                > via the LEM's Grace?!
                >
                > This, of course, doesn't involve the "inner" Mahanta.
                > This recourse, for the LEM to correct, only involves
                > the outer and Lower Planes. So, once again, why was
                > there bad weather during the EK Springtime Seminar
                > and tornadoes within 100 miles of the "spiritual" Temple
                > of ECK?
                >
                > The LEM's position doesn't make sense when put to the
                > test and is placed into proper perspective. That's because
                > Eckankar is just another fake religion that requires belief
                > and faith in someone "greater" than you. The use of promises
                > and vivid imaginations give hope to those who are fearful
                > and feel powerless. I thought most ECKists were more
                > intelligent, or has ego gotten in the way!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
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