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Re: Klemp Distorts ......

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  • ctecvie
    Hello Freefrom, Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it s good to have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
      Hello Freefrom,

      Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it's good to
      have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
      slant. I visit your group from time to time as well - so I'm a lurker,
      too!


      Ingrid
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Freefrom, Yes, it is nice being free from the chains of Eck. I saw that Mish put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
        Hi Freefrom,

        Yes, it is nice being "free from the chains of Eck." I saw that Mish
        put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-chains-of-Eck. It is
        good to have another anti-Eckankar site in order to have more forums
        for discussion, and to share information and experiences.

        Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
        Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
        prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
        and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
        Eckists.

        Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
        stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
        telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.
        It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
        accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
        Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
        experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
        Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
        is misidentified.

        On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
        cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
        erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
        these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
        Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
        and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
        deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
        welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
        look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
        there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
        egos or both it would seem!

        Thanks for posting the link to this site (ESA) onto your site of X-
        Eckankar.

        Prometheus


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
        <eckchains@y...> wrote:

        > Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
        OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
        there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
        rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full
        agreement with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some
        kind of captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and
        if you would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

        > Freefrom
      • Freefrom
        Prometheus wrote... On another note... I m amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
          Prometheus wrote...

          On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
          cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
          erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
          these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
          Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
          and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
          deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
          welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
          look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
          there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
          egos or both it would seem!

          Freefrom:
          *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
          at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
          before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
          path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do with
          family members and "friends" still being involved with eckankrap. It
          is a little bit like an addiction and that magical thinking from
          childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
          to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
          is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

          I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is an
          "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much what
          the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
          expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
          exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
          adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
          as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
          another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending or
          to be forced.*

          Good Fortune

          FreeFrom
        • ctecvie
          ... myself ... This happens to me as well. I think it s not so much about getting completely rid of this pattern (even if it s great when that happens) but to
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom" >

            > *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find
            myself
            > at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
            > before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
            > path away from my own common sense.

            This happens to me as well. I think it's not so much about getting
            completely rid of this pattern (even if it's great when that happens)
            but to be alert and notice when we are starting to go down that path
            again as you say.

            > Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
            > to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
            > is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

            Exactly.

            > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is
            > an
            > "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much
            >what
            > the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
            > expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
            > exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
            > adaptable.

            Well said! I have noticed that since being out of Eckankar, I have
            become more flexible in my thinking as well. Except, of course, that
            I have come to have a rather rigid opinion of the teaching itself! :-
            ) But as far as the people go, those who are still with Eckankar, I
            have come to a better understanding as well. I can see them as
            seekers who need the experience - just as I needed the experience as
            well, at the time. Of course if discussions start, they still can get
            fairly heated! :-)

            > Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
            > as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
            > another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending
            > or
            > to be forced.

            Truth doesn't need a belief system. The more we become aware that
            Eckankar is just another belief system the better and lighter it
            gets, in my experience.

            Ingrid
          • ctecvie
            Hello Prometheus, ... I have made some great experiences in this field during the last year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
              Hello Prometheus,

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

              > Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
              > Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
              > prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
              > and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
              > Eckists.

              I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
              year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
              presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
              anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
              but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
              take that much better than before and just let them be where they are.

              And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and after
              discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without blinking an
              eye. Those were the great experiences.

              > Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
              > stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
              > telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.

              It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
              doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.


              > It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
              > accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
              > Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
              > experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
              > Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
              > is misidentified.

              Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once we
              start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
              amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at the
              beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I have
              always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This was so
              before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I wake up
              in the morning and know what needs to be done and which decision I
              need to take.

              > On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and
              >other
              > cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
              > erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
              > these people are even "former" Eckists!

              I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists are
              that way - it's in the teachings.

              > You'd think that being in
              > Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
              > and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
              > deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
              > welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing!

              Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just don't
              question and accept everything an authority tells you! The longer you
              were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its damage, and so
              it's not a real surprise for me that some of those who left don't
              have any discriminations and lack a lot of common sense! Quite
              natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

              Ingrid
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Freefrom, I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike. Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and individual
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
                Hi Freefrom,

                I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike.
                Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and
                individual experiences as we sort it all out for deeper insights
                into the big WHY?

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                <eckchains@y...> wrote:
                > Prometheus wrote...
                On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                egos or both it would seem!

                > Freefrom:
                I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do
                with family members and "friends" still being involved with
                eckankrap. It is a little bit like an addiction and that magical
                thinking from childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that
                there is some truth to spirituality and psychic stuff that does
                happen, IMO. The problem is when you attribute it all to One org
                like eeck! (g)

                ***Yes, it is only natural that one replaces one habit with another
                or one religion with another. There is a void that needs to be
                filled. However, with time, Soul fills that void with a greater
                knowledge of Its own idenity and purpose (happiness/contentment?).
                One needs to have time to get to know OneSelf when a relationship
                has ended. There needs to be time for healing and re-evaluation and
                contemplation... one needs to "chill" for awhile. New and greater
                experiences await those who are free of the dogma and prejudical
                beliefs that were mapped out and programed into us for those self-
                fulling expectations. And, yes there is some truth to the spiritual
                and psychic stuff that we and others experience, but only some of it
                is Truth for the individual while only some of it is Truth for us
                all! No one path or religion has Truth! Actually, if one would take
                everything written by everyone they would still not find Truth! This
                may sound like a given, but look at how many people hang onto the
                words of those they see as "experts" or "Masters!"

                > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God
                is an "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so
                much what the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me
                that as ego expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not
                disappear exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter
                and adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma,
                such as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is
                just another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need
                defending or to be forced.*

                ***Yes, "God" (IMO) IS! Therefore, how can a total awareness of all
                that IS lower that awareness to belief and especially to limited or
                inaccurate beliefs? I'm certain, however, that "God" understands our
                little escapades (but we don't!) since it all eventually leads to an
                awareness of the innate cause for why we search for happiness. It is
                a longing (Soul has) to return to the absolute reality of Being
                (ISNESS)! Religions, cults and other scams are distractions that
                pacify and take (trap) our minds (and egos) into "safe" and "secure"
                little boxes. The (a) reality is that life is more fragile than we
                can handle, and thus the need for the ego to protect with
                distractions and delusions!

                Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Ingrid, I thought I d make a few more comments to what you have replied. ... year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented them.
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
                  Hi Ingrid,

                  I thought I'd make a few more comments to what you have replied.

                  Ingrid wrote:
                  > I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                  year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                  presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                  anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                  but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                  take that much better than before and just let them be where they
                  are.

                  ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                  Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                  of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                  Twitchell like skim! They were too afraid to do a slow read and
                  contemplate on the information. This is what also makes them angry.
                  They are afraid that former Eckists are right! None of them want to
                  return to square one! Eckists are too comfortable in their delusions
                  and want to remain in their own private little Sound Proof Dark
                  Room. As above (with Klemp) so below (with the rank and file)!


                  > And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and
                  after discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without
                  blinking an eye. Those were the great experiences.


                  ***It was more difficult for me to leave. At first, I didn't want to
                  believe what was in front of me, but I really had no choice if I
                  wanted to remain true to myself! That has always been an important
                  factor in being a truth seeker... and truth is so very elusive!
                  However, lucky for me that I have usually recognized an inner
                  guidance when It has presented Itself to me when making crucial
                  decisions. Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                  first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                  the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                  individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!


                  > It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                  doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.

                  ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by thinking
                  that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I would
                  have a break through in higher awareness. It was the "just Be"
                  concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                  Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                  me for quite awhile. However, the more that I watched and listened
                  to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                  heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                  true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                  friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                  and this gave me hope. But, it also pointed out that the initiations
                  were not earned though higher consciousness. And, acting "as if" you
                  are what you imagine yourself to be is a key step (delusion) to
                  becoming a loyal chela, and with time as a paid and always current
                  member... to those higher initiations. <LOL>


                  > Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once
                  we start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                  amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at
                  the beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I
                  have always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This
                  was so before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I
                  wake up in the morning and know what needs to be done and which
                  decision I need to take.

                  ***I usually had the spectacular "inner" experiences, but I did also
                  have the ones of "knowingness" too! Some of my wilder experiences
                  were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                  more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar! I had a
                  friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                  envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                  afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                  her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                  > I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists
                  are that way - it's in the teachings.

                  ***Eckists are members of a private club! They feel privileged
                  (vain) that they have all of that loving guidance and protection and
                  that they are so advanced spiritually! <so sad> Once an Eckist buys
                  into this crap for 25-35 years one doesn't want to know the truth!
                  The truth about Eckankar is a hinderance for obtaining those higher
                  initiations, local and state positions, and speaking engagements at
                  regional and major seminars! This is because some Eckists just like
                  being the center of attention! And, why throw all that away along
                  with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                  truth? I was going to mention the donations of money, but much of
                  that was tax deductible anyway!

                  > Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just
                  don't question and accept everything an authority tells you! The
                  longer you were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its
                  damage, and so it's not a real surprise for me that some of those
                  who left don't have any discriminations and lack a lot of common
                  sense! Quite natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                  ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                  Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a Rountable
                  Discussion, and was surprised that she wasn't asked to explain how
                  that fit in with the Eckankar teachings. I wouldn't, as an ESA, have
                  let that information go by so passively. So, as you can see, I was a
                  good soldier who followed guidelines and was brain-washed to know
                  the Mahanta's mission. But, it was tough being in the field of
                  action. I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                  need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                  finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                  Klump 20 years to write the first complete book! The even funnier
                  thing is that many Eckists are both stubborn and individualistic,
                  and don't follow or believe in guidelines!

                  Prometheus
                • ctecvie
                  Hello Prometheus, ... The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the same: He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn t like
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
                    Hello Prometheus,

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                    > ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                    > Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                    > of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                    > Twitchell like skim!

                    The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                    same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't like
                    him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder why he
                    was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                    seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                    was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                    blinded by his "high status"!


                    > ***It was more difficult for me to leave.

                    Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if you
                    want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a decision.
                    There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe diseases,
                    which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really was "the one
                    and only true way"! Of course this is because the master himself has
                    a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his followers just copy
                    him because they think that makes them more like him (which it does,
                    by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                    But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                    don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                    diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                    more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                    in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                    things in my opinion.

                    > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                    > first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                    > the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                    > individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                    We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                    > ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                    >thinking
                    > that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I
                    >would
                    > have a break through in higher awareness.

                    Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                    > It was the "just Be"
                    > concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                    > Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                    > me for quite awhile.

                    When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was nothing
                    new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that by being
                    an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within oneself,
                    so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                    > However, the more that I watched and listened
                    > to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                    > heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                    > true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                    > friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                    > and this gave me hope.

                    Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people out
                    there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                    > Some of my wilder experiences
                    > were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                    > more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar!

                    Yes, exactly!

                    > I had a
                    > friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                    > envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                    > afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                    > her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                    That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to expand
                    it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                    > And, why throw all that away along
                    > with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                    > truth?

                    I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still appreciate,
                    in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the difference
                    between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all are standing
                    in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not believe it! I
                    asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would have to wait
                    for that, and that spiritual development for each of us was much
                    faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                    > ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                    > Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a
                    >rountable
                    > Discussion

                    The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                    Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                    sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                    that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                    > I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                    > need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                    > finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                    > Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                    But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the resas
                    over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody wanted
                    to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess he just
                    couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know all of
                    the most recent books are a rehash of things that were written before.

                    Ingrid
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Ingrid, We are having some fun here aren t we! I thought I d comment some more. ... Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many of
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
                      Hi Ingrid,
                      We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                      more.

                      Prometheus wrote:
                      > > >Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                      Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                      of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                      Twitchell like skim!

                      Ingrid wrote:
                      > The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                      same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't
                      like him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder
                      why he was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                      seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                      was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                      blinded by his "high status"!

                      ***Yes, if Ford was so bland or egocentric or whatever the neo nay-
                      sayers claim then why did Klemp (the Mahanta) have him front and
                      center as an International representative for Eckankar!



                      > > >It was more difficult for me to leave.

                      > Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if
                      you want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a
                      decision. There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe
                      diseases, which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really
                      was "the one and only true way"! Of course this is because the
                      master himself has a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his
                      followers just copy him because they think that makes them more like
                      him (which it does, by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                      ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                      traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                      to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                      however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                      the "Prophet!"


                      > But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                      don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                      diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                      more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                      in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                      things in my opinion.

                      ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased as
                      a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                      hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                      that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!



                      > > > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                      first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                      the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                      individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                      > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                      ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!



                      > > >My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                      thinking that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that
                      eventually I would have a break through in higher awareness.

                      > Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                      ***Sometimes I now look back and see how "irrational" I was! I had
                      to talk myself into thinking I was doing the right thing at times. I
                      was very stubborn even with mySelf!



                      > > >It was the "just Be" concept and those like it that always gave
                      me hope. Of course those Higher Initiations were awfully enticing
                      too! They really impressed me for quite awhile.

                      > When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was
                      nothing new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that
                      by being an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within
                      oneself, so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                      ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                      from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                      expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                      are to be more initiations!



                      > > >However, the more that I watched and listened to
                      these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                      heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                      true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                      friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                      and this gave me hope.

                      > Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people
                      out there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                      ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                      easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                      There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.



                      > > >Some of my wilder experiences were before I joined Eckankar,
                      but I have had even more "interesting" experiences since leaving
                      Eckankar!

                      > Yes, exactly!

                      ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                      without a mahanta to second guess Me!



                      > > >I had a friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I
                      sometimes envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is
                      even afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to
                      protect her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her
                      fears!

                      > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                      expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                      ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                      strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                      see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                      is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                      violation of the Four Zoas!



                      > > >And, why throw all that away along with all of those years of
                      service, and initiations for the sake of truth?

                      > I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still
                      appreciate, in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the
                      difference between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all
                      are standing in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not
                      believe it! I asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would
                      have to wait for that, and that spiritual development for each of us
                      was much faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                      ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                      only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                      like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                      those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                      Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                      achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!



                      > > >Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                      Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a rountable
                      Discussion

                      > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                      Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                      sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                      that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                      ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                      this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                      their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                      If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                      countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                      been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                      and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised on
                      the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                      never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                      if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                      Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!


                      > > >I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                      need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                      finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                      Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                      > But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the
                      resas over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody
                      wanted to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess
                      he just couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know
                      all of the most recent books are a rehash of things that were
                      written before.

                      ***True, much of it was from RESA talks, meetings, and letters. Yes
                      Klemp does drag his feet and for a "prophet" he can't see the hand
                      writing on the wall! He just wasn't getting info to the chelas in an
                      organized "same page" like manner through his RESAs. The whole "Eck"
                      organization is screwed up and will just get worse as more demands
                      and controls are exerted.

                      Prometheus
                    • mishmisha9
                      Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the attitudes/beliefs of the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 10, 2005
                        Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                        several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                        attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                        say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                        and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                        elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                        people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                        them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle! Secondly, it
                        can be quite profitable for you. Since you didn't really make a
                        success with your engineering degree or really want to work in the
                        family business, well, why not take money from fools. It again shows
                        your superiority and cleaverness at conning, which really is just a
                        sport and now has become a lifestyle! LOL!

                        It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                        fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                        trust your inner guidance? Well, I suppose some people in their
                        quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                        their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                        people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some people
                        are always looking to others for answers that should be found within
                        themselves?

                        Ingrid said:
                        >
                        > > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                        > Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and
                        I'm sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                        > that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                        Prometheus replied:
                        >
                        > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                        if this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                        > their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                        > If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                        > countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                        > been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                        > and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised
                        on the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                        > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                        > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                        > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!
                        >
                        >

                        I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                        would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                        sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                        embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                        Mish
                      • ctecvie
                        Hello Prometheus, ... We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-)) ... I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in what you trust. And if
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                          Hello Prometheus,

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                          > Hi Ingrid,
                          > We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                          > more.

                          We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-))


                          > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                          > traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to
                          >go
                          > to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                          > however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                          > the "Prophet!"

                          I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in
                          what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you have
                          to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods as
                          well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and inform
                          ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything that comes
                          up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent in some
                          fields!

                          > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased
                          >as
                          > a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                          > hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                          > that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                          Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies and
                          the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap he
                          uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                          Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!

                          > > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!
                          >
                          > ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!

                          And isn't that soo great! :-)

                          > ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                          > from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                          > expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                          > are to be more initiations!

                          The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                          were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                          serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                          were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                          advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                          a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                          in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                          because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                          enough.

                          > ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                          > easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                          > There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.

                          Indeed. And the best of us were fooled and are still fooled (those
                          who are still in Eckankar).

                          > ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                          > without a mahanta to second guess Me!

                          True and well said! :-)

                          > > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                          > expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!
                          >
                          > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                          > strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do
                          >they
                          > see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                          > is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                          > violation of the Four Zoas!

                          LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                          big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)

                          > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                          > only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                          > like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                          > those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                          > Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                          > achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                          The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization" experience!
                          And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to have been, with
                          all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that local magazine! But,
                          you know, Prometheus - we women will become men in the next few
                          lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the LEM/mahanta! :-)

                          > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                          > this person has tried this technique?

                          I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about experiences
                          of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!

                          > So, what can I say... except that some people will
                          > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                          > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                          > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!

                          Yes, some people will never learn. And if I want to learn sun gazing,
                          why follow a con man? It's perhaps enough to inform myself on how to
                          do it, and then just do it and take perhaps follow-up sessions from
                          time to time! That is, if I really want to try it. I'm not
                          interested - but I have the freedom to do so, if I wish to do so -
                          and not because somebody else tells me that "this is it"!

                          Ingrid
                        • ctecvie
                          Hello Mish, I can see that you love sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...) ... That s true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be fooled so
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                            Hello Mish,

                            I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                            <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                            > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                            > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                            > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                            > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                            > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                            > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                            > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                            > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!

                            That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                            fooled so easily sometimes!

                            > Secondly, it
                            > can be quite profitable for you.

                            This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                            similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that he
                            knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                            talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                            could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                            wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed him
                            because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all are!

                            > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                            > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                            > trust your inner guidance?

                            Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be a
                            fool ...!! :-D

                            > Well, I suppose some people in their
                            > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                            > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                            > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                            >people
                            > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                            within
                            > themselves?

                            I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                            finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes and
                            see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                            enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary things
                            because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                            enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in the
                            morning and being grateful for the day!

                            > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                            > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                            > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                            > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                            And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                            Ingrid
                          • mishmisha9
                            Well, I think sun gazing might work for those few people whose brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would go to one of those sun
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                              Well, I think sun gazing might work for those "few" people whose
                              brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would
                              go to one of those sun gazing workshops would fall into that
                              category! : ) So, I guess it would seem "real" to those
                              already "blind" to reality. Yes, the brain is capable of being
                              tricked!

                              Mish

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                              <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                              > Hello Mish,
                              >
                              > I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                              > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                              > > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle
                              East
                              > > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                              > > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I
                              would
                              > > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part
                              sport
                              > > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and
                              it
                              > > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                              > > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter
                              than
                              > > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!
                              >
                              > That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                              > fooled so easily sometimes!
                              >
                              > > Secondly, it
                              > > can be quite profitable for you.
                              >
                              > This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                              > similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that
                              he
                              > knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                              > talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                              > could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                              > wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed
                              him
                              > because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all
                              are!
                              >
                              > > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of
                              being
                              > > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not
                              just
                              > > trust your inner guidance?
                              >
                              > Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be
                              a
                              > fool ...!! :-D
                              >
                              > > Well, I suppose some people in their
                              > > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                              > > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it
                              some
                              > > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                              > >people
                              > > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                              > within
                              > > themselves?
                              >
                              > I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                              > finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes
                              and
                              > see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                              > enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary
                              things
                              > because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                              > enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in
                              the
                              > morning and being grateful for the day!
                              >
                              > > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And
                              why
                              > > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                              > > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd
                              be
                              > > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )
                              >
                              > And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                              > Ingrid
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hi Ingrid, This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum ... traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go to Mexico
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                                Hi Ingrid,
                                This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum

                                > > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                to Mexico for Layatril treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                the "Prophet!"

                                > I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course
                                in what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you
                                have to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods
                                as well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and
                                inform ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything
                                that comes up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent
                                in some fields!


                                ###True, However, the Layatril treatments were proven to be a scam
                                to rob sick, rich and desparate Americans (mostly) of their money.
                                One could say that it did give some people hope, but it also
                                prevented many from receiving needed traditional treatment. Rod
                                Stewart had lytics in song mentioning Latatril but I'm not sure if
                                it was "Better off Dead" or "Foolish Behavior?"



                                > > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have
                                increased as a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear
                                induced mass hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if"
                                thinking that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                > Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies
                                and the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap
                                he uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!



                                ###Yes, and the Youths in Eck are being brainwashed with this same
                                crap! What will happen to them, I wonder, when they come out of the
                                fog and realize the truth when seeing the lies?



                                > > ***Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes from the stress
                                of being in a leadership position and the expectations of the
                                hierarchy! More and more is expected if there are to be more
                                initiations!

                                > The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                enough.


                                ### Yes, some H.I.s don't want to accept the truth about the
                                computer generated pink slips for initiation either! It takes away
                                from the magic and mystical imaginings and masks the deception of
                                the fraud. Yes, I also know what you mean by people acting
                                too "sweet." I knew a RESA who would give Eckists a hug and then
                                say, "I love you!" This was her "thing" for awhile, and it seemed
                                quite inappropriate and over the top! It caught people off guard and
                                was something only a "RESA" could get away with. No one else could
                                or would do this, because then those special words would
                                (eventually) have no meaning or value if said so casually and
                                recklessly.



                                > > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                violation of the Four Zoas!

                                > LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)


                                ### Yes, funny how the truth can become negative when it is not
                                their truth, or when they (Eckists) are not ready to hear it!



                                > > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks
                                like only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way
                                this is like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals
                                would be those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves
                                like the Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned
                                with achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                > The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization"
                                experience! And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to
                                have been, with all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that
                                local magazine! But, you know, Prometheus - we women will become men
                                in the next few lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the
                                LEM/mahanta! :-)


                                ### Yes, that's the Catch-22 of the scam! I guess that one or two
                                Catholic women (living today) can become the Pope in their next or
                                some other futuristic incarnation! What are the odds?



                                > > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                if this person has tried this technique? <Sun Gazing>

                                > I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about
                                experiences of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!


                                ### Right, I doubt if this person has done any Sun Gazing on her
                                own, but she is of that mind set to try anything and everything
                                others have to offer. Too bad that she doesn't have more Self-
                                confidence in her own Self by now.

                                Prometheus
                              • mishmisha9
                                Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar sites
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 31, 2006
                                  Hi, Everyone!

                                  This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                  the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                  sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                  mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                  you enjoy!

                                  *********************************
                                  It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                  truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                  Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                  discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                  have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                  experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                  The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                  others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                  this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                  you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                  feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                  truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                  will continue.

                                  For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                  for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                  you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                  have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                  can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                  because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                  in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                  working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                  grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                  matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                  making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                  to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                  not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                  can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                  help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                  very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                  I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                  which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                  about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                  Mish

                                  >
                                  > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                  > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                  about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                  least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                  guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                  freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                  have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                  mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                  Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                  back to a 1st like Graham!
                                  >
                                • eyesopen444
                                  Mishmisha9 wrote: Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 31, 2006
                                    Mishmisha9 wrote:

                                    Hi, Everyone!

                                    This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                    the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                    sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                    mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                    you enjoy!

                                    *********************************
                                    It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                    truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                    Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                    discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                    have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                    experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                    The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                    others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                    this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                    you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                    feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                    truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                    will continue.

                                    For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                    for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                    you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                    have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                    can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                    because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                    in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                    working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                    grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                    matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                    making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                    to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                    not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                    can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                    help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                    very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                    I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                    which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                    about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                    Mish

                                    >
                                    > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                    > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                    about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                    least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                    guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                    freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                    have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                    mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                    Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                    back to a 1st like Graham!
                                    >
                                    ######################################################################

                                    ME:

                                    Hi Everyone!

                                    I'm pleased to express my reasons for reading/posting on ESA and ET.
                                    First of all, I'm glad they exist! In all the years I spent reading
                                    ekult books and discourses and those spiritual exercises - it seemed
                                    to me that I got as far as I was ever going to get in ekult within the
                                    first five years or so. I had too many other things going on in my
                                    life to pursue another path, so I trusted ekult and repressed my
                                    questions and doubts and hoped for the best. The thing about Spirit
                                    (IMHO) is that It will not be content to remain on a dead-end path. It
                                    is our spiritual nature to desire continued growth and more knowledge.
                                    My unanswered questions and unease with ekult kept returning.

                                    I contacted my area HI and "joined in" at a few worship services,
                                    which turned out to be pretty bizarre. I met long time members, some
                                    expressed self-doubt and couldn't understand why they had not achieved
                                    a higher initiation level (this is such an effective control
                                    technique, I'm sorry to say), others seemed almost manic with their
                                    efforts to appear happy and sooo full of Spirit. All this did was
                                    creep me out and I KNEW that I wasn't going to get any answers from
                                    these people.

                                    The next logical step in my mind was to check out the internet.<SMILE>
                                    I quickly found these "anti-eck" sites and spent several weekends
                                    exploring every link and site that I could find. When I first learned
                                    the truth, I was shocked and hurt but also fascinated. I'll admit, I
                                    was also angry! But, because of these sites, I felt the comfort of not
                                    being alone, I enjoyed the humor shared and was able to forgive myself
                                    for being taken in by such a scam.

                                    I thank Prometheus, Sharon, Liz, Mish, Alf and all of the other great
                                    posters on these sites. HUGS to you all! I don't think that I would
                                    have worked through this as quickly or as well without your help.
                                    THANK YOU!!

                                    I didn't join out of anger, revenge or hatred. Quite the opposite.
                                    I joined because I want to help those who will follow and are now
                                    where we all once were.

                                    I don't consider these "anti-eck" sites but rather as a source of
                                    TRUTH. These sites would not be needed if ekult was not a sham and HK
                                    would tell the truth. People are being hurt and balance is needed.

                                    Thanks for listening.

                                    Have Fun!

                                    Kaye
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