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Re: Klemp Distorts ......

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  • ctecvie
    Hello Christel, ... It s true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have one! It s our decision. ... little ... eckist s, ... couldn t ...
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
      Hello Christel,


      > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.

      It's true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have
      one! It's our decision.


      > I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no
      little
      > love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the
      eckist's,
      > how to see those, who left (in the W.N). I noticed, that I
      couldn't
      > accept an inner master, but surely an outer, in his writing f.e.
      > oh no, I also become the answer: in religions, there is the
      heart,
      > but not the mind decisive.

      Such a typical answer in Eckankar - if you question writings, such
      as the last wisdom notes in your case, then the answer is pretty
      often "you are in the mind, you need to go within to find the answer
      for you". 'Mind' has become a real 'no-no' word in Eckankar.

      > in my case, the mind would mine, to stay
      > in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang with very lovely persons - but, in
      my
      > heart, no, it couldn't be, because, the mahanta was only an outer
      > master, if at all, for me.

      Well, it's pretty obvious that your heart is right here. It's true
      that sometimes it's hard to give up the group, the people we have
      come to like over the years. But that's, as you point out (I believe
      I have understood correctly), only the mind. The heart says
      something entirely different!


      > but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
      > devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all
      what
      > I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
      > and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
      to
      > my open words, to awake hearing, understanding. I didn't except:
      > accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues together.

      Yes, it's difficult for them to accept that there's another "truth"
      out there than theirs. So, it's often easier to devaluate the
      messenger (you in that case) than to admit that something's not
      quite right with the teachings and, especially, with the master.
      Discussion is not possible because this would be of the kal.


      > what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists are not
      > able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other opinions,
      where
      > ever they come from. they only answers in eck-sentences. they are
      not
      > able, to try coming in the thougts of others, isn't so?
      > oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told my leaving
      behind
      > eckankar.

      Yes, that's a pity indeed. I think all we can do with those who
      can't accept us as we are - accept them as they are. I know that
      this is easier said than done. I have learned quite a lot about this
      during the last year. Soon, it will be a year that I left! Hooray! :-
      ))

      > the same we could learn in the ddr, there, these, who
      > wasn't able to agree, those are no-man!

      I have found out that it's pretty much the same mechanism in
      oppressing countries like the German Democratic Republic - you can't
      speak your mind, and if you do, this has serious consequences.
      Fortunately, Eckankar isn't quite like that - but you get devaluated
      for sure, and opinions of ex-members or members with serious doubts
      don't count at all.

      > my experience, is it compatible to others???

      Oh, yes!!! For sure!! I have seen pretty much the same thing, and I
      didn't really dare to ask too many questions. Fortunately, I could
      discuss those issues with my husband, so I wasn't all alone.


      > sorry, my english - but I hope, perhabs, you could understand,
      what
      > I'm meaning.

      I think you made yourself quite clear! If there's something you feel
      I didn't understand correctly, just tell me. I'm happy you posted!

      Ingrid
    • ctecvie
      Hello Freefrom, Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it s good to have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
        Hello Freefrom,

        Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it's good to
        have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
        slant. I visit your group from time to time as well - so I'm a lurker,
        too!


        Ingrid
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Freefrom, Yes, it is nice being free from the chains of Eck. I saw that Mish put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
          Hi Freefrom,

          Yes, it is nice being "free from the chains of Eck." I saw that Mish
          put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-chains-of-Eck. It is
          good to have another anti-Eckankar site in order to have more forums
          for discussion, and to share information and experiences.

          Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
          Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
          prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
          and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
          Eckists.

          Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
          stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
          telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.
          It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
          accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
          Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
          experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
          Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
          is misidentified.

          On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
          cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
          erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
          these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
          Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
          and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
          deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
          welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
          look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
          there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
          egos or both it would seem!

          Thanks for posting the link to this site (ESA) onto your site of X-
          Eckankar.

          Prometheus


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
          <eckchains@y...> wrote:

          > Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
          OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
          there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
          rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full
          agreement with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some
          kind of captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and
          if you would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

          > Freefrom
        • Freefrom
          Prometheus wrote... On another note... I m amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
            Prometheus wrote...

            On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
            cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
            erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
            these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
            Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
            and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
            deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
            welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
            look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
            there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
            egos or both it would seem!

            Freefrom:
            *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
            at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
            before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
            path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do with
            family members and "friends" still being involved with eckankrap. It
            is a little bit like an addiction and that magical thinking from
            childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
            to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
            is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

            I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is an
            "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much what
            the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
            expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
            exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
            adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
            as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
            another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending or
            to be forced.*

            Good Fortune

            FreeFrom
          • ctecvie
            ... myself ... This happens to me as well. I think it s not so much about getting completely rid of this pattern (even if it s great when that happens) but to
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom" >

              > *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find
              myself
              > at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
              > before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
              > path away from my own common sense.

              This happens to me as well. I think it's not so much about getting
              completely rid of this pattern (even if it's great when that happens)
              but to be alert and notice when we are starting to go down that path
              again as you say.

              > Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
              > to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
              > is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

              Exactly.

              > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is
              > an
              > "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much
              >what
              > the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
              > expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
              > exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
              > adaptable.

              Well said! I have noticed that since being out of Eckankar, I have
              become more flexible in my thinking as well. Except, of course, that
              I have come to have a rather rigid opinion of the teaching itself! :-
              ) But as far as the people go, those who are still with Eckankar, I
              have come to a better understanding as well. I can see them as
              seekers who need the experience - just as I needed the experience as
              well, at the time. Of course if discussions start, they still can get
              fairly heated! :-)

              > Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
              > as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
              > another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending
              > or
              > to be forced.

              Truth doesn't need a belief system. The more we become aware that
              Eckankar is just another belief system the better and lighter it
              gets, in my experience.

              Ingrid
            • ctecvie
              Hello Prometheus, ... I have made some great experiences in this field during the last year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
                Hello Prometheus,

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                > Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
                > Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
                > prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
                > and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
                > Eckists.

                I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                take that much better than before and just let them be where they are.

                And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and after
                discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without blinking an
                eye. Those were the great experiences.

                > Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
                > stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
                > telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.

                It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.


                > It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
                > accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
                > Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
                > experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
                > Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
                > is misidentified.

                Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once we
                start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at the
                beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I have
                always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This was so
                before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I wake up
                in the morning and know what needs to be done and which decision I
                need to take.

                > On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and
                >other
                > cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                > erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                > these people are even "former" Eckists!

                I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists are
                that way - it's in the teachings.

                > You'd think that being in
                > Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                > and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                > deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                > welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing!

                Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just don't
                question and accept everything an authority tells you! The longer you
                were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its damage, and so
                it's not a real surprise for me that some of those who left don't
                have any discriminations and lack a lot of common sense! Quite
                natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                Ingrid
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Freefrom, I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike. Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and individual
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
                  Hi Freefrom,

                  I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike.
                  Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and
                  individual experiences as we sort it all out for deeper insights
                  into the big WHY?

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                  <eckchains@y...> wrote:
                  > Prometheus wrote...
                  On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                  cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                  erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                  these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                  Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                  and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                  deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                  welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                  look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                  there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                  egos or both it would seem!

                  > Freefrom:
                  I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                  at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                  before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                  path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do
                  with family members and "friends" still being involved with
                  eckankrap. It is a little bit like an addiction and that magical
                  thinking from childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that
                  there is some truth to spirituality and psychic stuff that does
                  happen, IMO. The problem is when you attribute it all to One org
                  like eeck! (g)

                  ***Yes, it is only natural that one replaces one habit with another
                  or one religion with another. There is a void that needs to be
                  filled. However, with time, Soul fills that void with a greater
                  knowledge of Its own idenity and purpose (happiness/contentment?).
                  One needs to have time to get to know OneSelf when a relationship
                  has ended. There needs to be time for healing and re-evaluation and
                  contemplation... one needs to "chill" for awhile. New and greater
                  experiences await those who are free of the dogma and prejudical
                  beliefs that were mapped out and programed into us for those self-
                  fulling expectations. And, yes there is some truth to the spiritual
                  and psychic stuff that we and others experience, but only some of it
                  is Truth for the individual while only some of it is Truth for us
                  all! No one path or religion has Truth! Actually, if one would take
                  everything written by everyone they would still not find Truth! This
                  may sound like a given, but look at how many people hang onto the
                  words of those they see as "experts" or "Masters!"

                  > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God
                  is an "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so
                  much what the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me
                  that as ego expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not
                  disappear exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter
                  and adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma,
                  such as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is
                  just another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need
                  defending or to be forced.*

                  ***Yes, "God" (IMO) IS! Therefore, how can a total awareness of all
                  that IS lower that awareness to belief and especially to limited or
                  inaccurate beliefs? I'm certain, however, that "God" understands our
                  little escapades (but we don't!) since it all eventually leads to an
                  awareness of the innate cause for why we search for happiness. It is
                  a longing (Soul has) to return to the absolute reality of Being
                  (ISNESS)! Religions, cults and other scams are distractions that
                  pacify and take (trap) our minds (and egos) into "safe" and "secure"
                  little boxes. The (a) reality is that life is more fragile than we
                  can handle, and thus the need for the ego to protect with
                  distractions and delusions!

                  Prometheus
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Ingrid, I thought I d make a few more comments to what you have replied. ... year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented them.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
                    Hi Ingrid,

                    I thought I'd make a few more comments to what you have replied.

                    Ingrid wrote:
                    > I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                    year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                    presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                    anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                    but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                    take that much better than before and just let them be where they
                    are.

                    ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                    Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                    of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                    Twitchell like skim! They were too afraid to do a slow read and
                    contemplate on the information. This is what also makes them angry.
                    They are afraid that former Eckists are right! None of them want to
                    return to square one! Eckists are too comfortable in their delusions
                    and want to remain in their own private little Sound Proof Dark
                    Room. As above (with Klemp) so below (with the rank and file)!


                    > And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and
                    after discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without
                    blinking an eye. Those were the great experiences.


                    ***It was more difficult for me to leave. At first, I didn't want to
                    believe what was in front of me, but I really had no choice if I
                    wanted to remain true to myself! That has always been an important
                    factor in being a truth seeker... and truth is so very elusive!
                    However, lucky for me that I have usually recognized an inner
                    guidance when It has presented Itself to me when making crucial
                    decisions. Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                    first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                    the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                    individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!


                    > It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                    doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.

                    ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by thinking
                    that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I would
                    have a break through in higher awareness. It was the "just Be"
                    concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                    Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                    me for quite awhile. However, the more that I watched and listened
                    to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                    heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                    true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                    friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                    and this gave me hope. But, it also pointed out that the initiations
                    were not earned though higher consciousness. And, acting "as if" you
                    are what you imagine yourself to be is a key step (delusion) to
                    becoming a loyal chela, and with time as a paid and always current
                    member... to those higher initiations. <LOL>


                    > Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once
                    we start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                    amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at
                    the beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I
                    have always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This
                    was so before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I
                    wake up in the morning and know what needs to be done and which
                    decision I need to take.

                    ***I usually had the spectacular "inner" experiences, but I did also
                    have the ones of "knowingness" too! Some of my wilder experiences
                    were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                    more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar! I had a
                    friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                    envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                    afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                    her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                    > I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists
                    are that way - it's in the teachings.

                    ***Eckists are members of a private club! They feel privileged
                    (vain) that they have all of that loving guidance and protection and
                    that they are so advanced spiritually! <so sad> Once an Eckist buys
                    into this crap for 25-35 years one doesn't want to know the truth!
                    The truth about Eckankar is a hinderance for obtaining those higher
                    initiations, local and state positions, and speaking engagements at
                    regional and major seminars! This is because some Eckists just like
                    being the center of attention! And, why throw all that away along
                    with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                    truth? I was going to mention the donations of money, but much of
                    that was tax deductible anyway!

                    > Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just
                    don't question and accept everything an authority tells you! The
                    longer you were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its
                    damage, and so it's not a real surprise for me that some of those
                    who left don't have any discriminations and lack a lot of common
                    sense! Quite natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                    ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                    Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a Rountable
                    Discussion, and was surprised that she wasn't asked to explain how
                    that fit in with the Eckankar teachings. I wouldn't, as an ESA, have
                    let that information go by so passively. So, as you can see, I was a
                    good soldier who followed guidelines and was brain-washed to know
                    the Mahanta's mission. But, it was tough being in the field of
                    action. I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                    need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                    finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                    Klump 20 years to write the first complete book! The even funnier
                    thing is that many Eckists are both stubborn and individualistic,
                    and don't follow or believe in guidelines!

                    Prometheus
                  • ctecvie
                    Hello Prometheus, ... The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the same: He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn t like
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
                      Hello Prometheus,

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                      > ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                      > Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                      > of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                      > Twitchell like skim!

                      The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                      same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't like
                      him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder why he
                      was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                      seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                      was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                      blinded by his "high status"!


                      > ***It was more difficult for me to leave.

                      Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if you
                      want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a decision.
                      There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe diseases,
                      which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really was "the one
                      and only true way"! Of course this is because the master himself has
                      a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his followers just copy
                      him because they think that makes them more like him (which it does,
                      by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                      But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                      don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                      diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                      more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                      in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                      things in my opinion.

                      > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                      > first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                      > the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                      > individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                      We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                      > ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                      >thinking
                      > that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I
                      >would
                      > have a break through in higher awareness.

                      Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                      > It was the "just Be"
                      > concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                      > Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                      > me for quite awhile.

                      When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was nothing
                      new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that by being
                      an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within oneself,
                      so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                      > However, the more that I watched and listened
                      > to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                      > heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                      > true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                      > friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                      > and this gave me hope.

                      Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people out
                      there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                      > Some of my wilder experiences
                      > were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                      > more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar!

                      Yes, exactly!

                      > I had a
                      > friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                      > envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                      > afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                      > her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                      That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to expand
                      it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                      > And, why throw all that away along
                      > with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                      > truth?

                      I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still appreciate,
                      in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the difference
                      between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all are standing
                      in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not believe it! I
                      asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would have to wait
                      for that, and that spiritual development for each of us was much
                      faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                      > ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                      > Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a
                      >rountable
                      > Discussion

                      The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                      Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                      sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                      that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                      > I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                      > need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                      > finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                      > Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                      But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the resas
                      over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody wanted
                      to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess he just
                      couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know all of
                      the most recent books are a rehash of things that were written before.

                      Ingrid
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Ingrid, We are having some fun here aren t we! I thought I d comment some more. ... Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many of
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
                        Hi Ingrid,
                        We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                        more.

                        Prometheus wrote:
                        > > >Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                        Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                        of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                        Twitchell like skim!

                        Ingrid wrote:
                        > The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                        same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't
                        like him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder
                        why he was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                        seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                        was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                        blinded by his "high status"!

                        ***Yes, if Ford was so bland or egocentric or whatever the neo nay-
                        sayers claim then why did Klemp (the Mahanta) have him front and
                        center as an International representative for Eckankar!



                        > > >It was more difficult for me to leave.

                        > Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if
                        you want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a
                        decision. There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe
                        diseases, which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really
                        was "the one and only true way"! Of course this is because the
                        master himself has a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his
                        followers just copy him because they think that makes them more like
                        him (which it does, by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                        ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                        traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                        to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                        however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                        the "Prophet!"


                        > But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                        don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                        diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                        more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                        in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                        things in my opinion.

                        ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased as
                        a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                        hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                        that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!



                        > > > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                        first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                        the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                        individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                        > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                        ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!



                        > > >My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                        thinking that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that
                        eventually I would have a break through in higher awareness.

                        > Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                        ***Sometimes I now look back and see how "irrational" I was! I had
                        to talk myself into thinking I was doing the right thing at times. I
                        was very stubborn even with mySelf!



                        > > >It was the "just Be" concept and those like it that always gave
                        me hope. Of course those Higher Initiations were awfully enticing
                        too! They really impressed me for quite awhile.

                        > When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was
                        nothing new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that
                        by being an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within
                        oneself, so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                        ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                        from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                        expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                        are to be more initiations!



                        > > >However, the more that I watched and listened to
                        these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                        heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                        true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                        friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                        and this gave me hope.

                        > Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people
                        out there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                        ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                        easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                        There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.



                        > > >Some of my wilder experiences were before I joined Eckankar,
                        but I have had even more "interesting" experiences since leaving
                        Eckankar!

                        > Yes, exactly!

                        ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                        without a mahanta to second guess Me!



                        > > >I had a friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I
                        sometimes envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is
                        even afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to
                        protect her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her
                        fears!

                        > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                        expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                        ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                        strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                        see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                        is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                        violation of the Four Zoas!



                        > > >And, why throw all that away along with all of those years of
                        service, and initiations for the sake of truth?

                        > I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still
                        appreciate, in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the
                        difference between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all
                        are standing in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not
                        believe it! I asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would
                        have to wait for that, and that spiritual development for each of us
                        was much faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                        ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                        only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                        like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                        those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                        Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                        achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!



                        > > >Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                        Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a rountable
                        Discussion

                        > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                        Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                        sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                        that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                        ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                        this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                        their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                        If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                        countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                        been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                        and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised on
                        the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                        never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                        if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                        Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!


                        > > >I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                        need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                        finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                        Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                        > But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the
                        resas over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody
                        wanted to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess
                        he just couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know
                        all of the most recent books are a rehash of things that were
                        written before.

                        ***True, much of it was from RESA talks, meetings, and letters. Yes
                        Klemp does drag his feet and for a "prophet" he can't see the hand
                        writing on the wall! He just wasn't getting info to the chelas in an
                        organized "same page" like manner through his RESAs. The whole "Eck"
                        organization is screwed up and will just get worse as more demands
                        and controls are exerted.

                        Prometheus
                      • mishmisha9
                        Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the attitudes/beliefs of the
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 10, 2005
                          Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                          several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                          attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                          say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                          and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                          elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                          people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                          them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle! Secondly, it
                          can be quite profitable for you. Since you didn't really make a
                          success with your engineering degree or really want to work in the
                          family business, well, why not take money from fools. It again shows
                          your superiority and cleaverness at conning, which really is just a
                          sport and now has become a lifestyle! LOL!

                          It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                          fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                          trust your inner guidance? Well, I suppose some people in their
                          quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                          their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                          people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some people
                          are always looking to others for answers that should be found within
                          themselves?

                          Ingrid said:
                          >
                          > > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                          > Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and
                          I'm sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                          > that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                          Prometheus replied:
                          >
                          > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                          if this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                          > their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                          > If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                          > countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                          > been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                          > and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised
                          on the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                          > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                          > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                          > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!
                          >
                          >

                          I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                          would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                          sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                          embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                          Mish
                        • ctecvie
                          Hello Prometheus, ... We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-)) ... I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in what you trust. And if
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                            Hello Prometheus,

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                            > Hi Ingrid,
                            > We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                            > more.

                            We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-))


                            > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                            > traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to
                            >go
                            > to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                            > however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                            > the "Prophet!"

                            I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in
                            what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you have
                            to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods as
                            well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and inform
                            ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything that comes
                            up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent in some
                            fields!

                            > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased
                            >as
                            > a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                            > hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                            > that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                            Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies and
                            the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap he
                            uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                            Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!

                            > > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!
                            >
                            > ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!

                            And isn't that soo great! :-)

                            > ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                            > from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                            > expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                            > are to be more initiations!

                            The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                            were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                            serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                            were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                            advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                            a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                            in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                            because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                            enough.

                            > ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                            > easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                            > There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.

                            Indeed. And the best of us were fooled and are still fooled (those
                            who are still in Eckankar).

                            > ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                            > without a mahanta to second guess Me!

                            True and well said! :-)

                            > > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                            > expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!
                            >
                            > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                            > strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do
                            >they
                            > see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                            > is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                            > violation of the Four Zoas!

                            LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                            big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)

                            > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                            > only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                            > like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                            > those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                            > Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                            > achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                            The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization" experience!
                            And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to have been, with
                            all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that local magazine! But,
                            you know, Prometheus - we women will become men in the next few
                            lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the LEM/mahanta! :-)

                            > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                            > this person has tried this technique?

                            I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about experiences
                            of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!

                            > So, what can I say... except that some people will
                            > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                            > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                            > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!

                            Yes, some people will never learn. And if I want to learn sun gazing,
                            why follow a con man? It's perhaps enough to inform myself on how to
                            do it, and then just do it and take perhaps follow-up sessions from
                            time to time! That is, if I really want to try it. I'm not
                            interested - but I have the freedom to do so, if I wish to do so -
                            and not because somebody else tells me that "this is it"!

                            Ingrid
                          • ctecvie
                            Hello Mish, I can see that you love sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...) ... That s true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be fooled so
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                              Hello Mish,

                              I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                              > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                              > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                              > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                              > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                              > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                              > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                              > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                              > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!

                              That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                              fooled so easily sometimes!

                              > Secondly, it
                              > can be quite profitable for you.

                              This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                              similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that he
                              knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                              talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                              could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                              wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed him
                              because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all are!

                              > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                              > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                              > trust your inner guidance?

                              Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be a
                              fool ...!! :-D

                              > Well, I suppose some people in their
                              > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                              > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                              > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                              >people
                              > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                              within
                              > themselves?

                              I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                              finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes and
                              see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                              enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary things
                              because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                              enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in the
                              morning and being grateful for the day!

                              > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                              > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                              > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                              > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                              And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                              Ingrid
                            • mishmisha9
                              Well, I think sun gazing might work for those few people whose brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would go to one of those sun
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                                Well, I think sun gazing might work for those "few" people whose
                                brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would
                                go to one of those sun gazing workshops would fall into that
                                category! : ) So, I guess it would seem "real" to those
                                already "blind" to reality. Yes, the brain is capable of being
                                tricked!

                                Mish

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                                <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                                > Hello Mish,
                                >
                                > I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                > > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle
                                East
                                > > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                > > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I
                                would
                                > > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part
                                sport
                                > > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and
                                it
                                > > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                > > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter
                                than
                                > > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!
                                >
                                > That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                > fooled so easily sometimes!
                                >
                                > > Secondly, it
                                > > can be quite profitable for you.
                                >
                                > This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                > similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that
                                he
                                > knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                > talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                > could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                > wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed
                                him
                                > because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all
                                are!
                                >
                                > > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of
                                being
                                > > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not
                                just
                                > > trust your inner guidance?
                                >
                                > Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be
                                a
                                > fool ...!! :-D
                                >
                                > > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                > > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                > > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it
                                some
                                > > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                > >people
                                > > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                > within
                                > > themselves?
                                >
                                > I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                > finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes
                                and
                                > see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                > enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary
                                things
                                > because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                > enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in
                                the
                                > morning and being grateful for the day!
                                >
                                > > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And
                                why
                                > > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                > > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd
                                be
                                > > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )
                                >
                                > And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                > Ingrid
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hi Ingrid, This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum ... traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go to Mexico
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
                                  Hi Ingrid,
                                  This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum

                                  > > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                  traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                  to Mexico for Layatril treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                  however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                  the "Prophet!"

                                  > I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course
                                  in what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you
                                  have to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods
                                  as well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and
                                  inform ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything
                                  that comes up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent
                                  in some fields!


                                  ###True, However, the Layatril treatments were proven to be a scam
                                  to rob sick, rich and desparate Americans (mostly) of their money.
                                  One could say that it did give some people hope, but it also
                                  prevented many from receiving needed traditional treatment. Rod
                                  Stewart had lytics in song mentioning Latatril but I'm not sure if
                                  it was "Better off Dead" or "Foolish Behavior?"



                                  > > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have
                                  increased as a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear
                                  induced mass hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if"
                                  thinking that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                  > Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies
                                  and the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap
                                  he uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                  Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!



                                  ###Yes, and the Youths in Eck are being brainwashed with this same
                                  crap! What will happen to them, I wonder, when they come out of the
                                  fog and realize the truth when seeing the lies?



                                  > > ***Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes from the stress
                                  of being in a leadership position and the expectations of the
                                  hierarchy! More and more is expected if there are to be more
                                  initiations!

                                  > The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                  were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                  serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                  were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                  advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                  a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                  in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                  because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                  enough.


                                  ### Yes, some H.I.s don't want to accept the truth about the
                                  computer generated pink slips for initiation either! It takes away
                                  from the magic and mystical imaginings and masks the deception of
                                  the fraud. Yes, I also know what you mean by people acting
                                  too "sweet." I knew a RESA who would give Eckists a hug and then
                                  say, "I love you!" This was her "thing" for awhile, and it seemed
                                  quite inappropriate and over the top! It caught people off guard and
                                  was something only a "RESA" could get away with. No one else could
                                  or would do this, because then those special words would
                                  (eventually) have no meaning or value if said so casually and
                                  recklessly.



                                  > > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                  strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                  see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                  is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                  violation of the Four Zoas!

                                  > LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                  big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)


                                  ### Yes, funny how the truth can become negative when it is not
                                  their truth, or when they (Eckists) are not ready to hear it!



                                  > > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks
                                  like only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way
                                  this is like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals
                                  would be those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves
                                  like the Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned
                                  with achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                  > The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization"
                                  experience! And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to
                                  have been, with all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that
                                  local magazine! But, you know, Prometheus - we women will become men
                                  in the next few lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the
                                  LEM/mahanta! :-)


                                  ### Yes, that's the Catch-22 of the scam! I guess that one or two
                                  Catholic women (living today) can become the Pope in their next or
                                  some other futuristic incarnation! What are the odds?



                                  > > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                  if this person has tried this technique? <Sun Gazing>

                                  > I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about
                                  experiences of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!


                                  ### Right, I doubt if this person has done any Sun Gazing on her
                                  own, but she is of that mind set to try anything and everything
                                  others have to offer. Too bad that she doesn't have more Self-
                                  confidence in her own Self by now.

                                  Prometheus
                                • mishmisha9
                                  Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar sites
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 31, 2006
                                    Hi, Everyone!

                                    This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                    the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                    sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                    mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                    you enjoy!

                                    *********************************
                                    It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                    truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                    Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                    discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                    have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                    experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                    The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                    others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                    this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                    you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                    feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                    truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                    will continue.

                                    For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                    for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                    you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                    have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                    can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                    because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                    in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                    working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                    grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                    matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                    making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                    to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                    not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                    can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                    help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                    very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                    I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                    which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                    about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                    Mish

                                    >
                                    > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                    > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                    about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                    least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                    guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                    freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                    have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                    mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                    Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                    back to a 1st like Graham!
                                    >
                                  • eyesopen444
                                    Mishmisha9 wrote: Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 31, 2006
                                      Mishmisha9 wrote:

                                      Hi, Everyone!

                                      This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                      the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                      sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                      mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                      you enjoy!

                                      *********************************
                                      It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                      truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                      Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                      discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                      have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                      experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                      The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                      others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                      this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                      you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                      feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                      truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                      will continue.

                                      For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                      for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                      you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                      have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                      can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                      because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                      in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                      working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                      grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                      matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                      making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                      to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                      not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                      can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                      help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                      very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                      I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                      which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                      about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                      Mish

                                      >
                                      > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                      > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                      about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                      least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                      guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                      freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                      have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                      mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                      Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                      back to a 1st like Graham!
                                      >
                                      ######################################################################

                                      ME:

                                      Hi Everyone!

                                      I'm pleased to express my reasons for reading/posting on ESA and ET.
                                      First of all, I'm glad they exist! In all the years I spent reading
                                      ekult books and discourses and those spiritual exercises - it seemed
                                      to me that I got as far as I was ever going to get in ekult within the
                                      first five years or so. I had too many other things going on in my
                                      life to pursue another path, so I trusted ekult and repressed my
                                      questions and doubts and hoped for the best. The thing about Spirit
                                      (IMHO) is that It will not be content to remain on a dead-end path. It
                                      is our spiritual nature to desire continued growth and more knowledge.
                                      My unanswered questions and unease with ekult kept returning.

                                      I contacted my area HI and "joined in" at a few worship services,
                                      which turned out to be pretty bizarre. I met long time members, some
                                      expressed self-doubt and couldn't understand why they had not achieved
                                      a higher initiation level (this is such an effective control
                                      technique, I'm sorry to say), others seemed almost manic with their
                                      efforts to appear happy and sooo full of Spirit. All this did was
                                      creep me out and I KNEW that I wasn't going to get any answers from
                                      these people.

                                      The next logical step in my mind was to check out the internet.<SMILE>
                                      I quickly found these "anti-eck" sites and spent several weekends
                                      exploring every link and site that I could find. When I first learned
                                      the truth, I was shocked and hurt but also fascinated. I'll admit, I
                                      was also angry! But, because of these sites, I felt the comfort of not
                                      being alone, I enjoyed the humor shared and was able to forgive myself
                                      for being taken in by such a scam.

                                      I thank Prometheus, Sharon, Liz, Mish, Alf and all of the other great
                                      posters on these sites. HUGS to you all! I don't think that I would
                                      have worked through this as quickly or as well without your help.
                                      THANK YOU!!

                                      I didn't join out of anger, revenge or hatred. Quite the opposite.
                                      I joined because I want to help those who will follow and are now
                                      where we all once were.

                                      I don't consider these "anti-eck" sites but rather as a source of
                                      TRUTH. These sites would not be needed if ekult was not a sham and HK
                                      would tell the truth. People are being hurt and balance is needed.

                                      Thanks for listening.

                                      Have Fun!

                                      Kaye
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