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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Speaking Of Ducks

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  • Elizabeth
    Etznab wrote: I m still looking for the official reason for changing of names in some places. falling out of favor with Kirpal Singh may have been a reason,
    Message 1 of 23 , May 14, 2008
      Etznab wrote:
      I'm still looking for the "official" reason for changing of names in some places.
      falling out of favor with Kirpal Singh may have been a reason,
      but changing his name to some other name, well ... if I call
      you by another name, does that mean you become that other
      person and take on a new history for yourself while everything
      that went by your other name before disappears not only from
      history, but from reality?
       
      ME: Kirpal Singh didn't want anything to do with Twit, remember!  Guess I'll have to go find this to prove it, but it is documented that Kipal wanted nothing to do with Paul, for one being a liar and huge story teller....  You and every invested eckists call it a "falling out"  LOL   I find this theory  "if I call you by another name, does that mean you become that other person and take on a new history for yourself "   laughable at best, sounds like something Doug or Rich would spew....   


         
    • jivatmananda
      Hi All, It really means that all these Eck Masters would be reprimanded if they lived today. Would HK ask them to withdraw from all public activities and
      Message 2 of 23 , May 14, 2008
        Hi All,

        It really means that all these "Eck Masters" would be reprimanded if
        they lived today. Would HK ask them to withdraw from all public
        activities and study the Shariyat for 6 months as he did for Ford Johnson?

        I guess Klemp will say that their teachings fitted the consciousness
        of their time. So it was supposedly a great idea to teach the
        resurrection of the flesh, strict chastity, strict vegetarianism while
        stating that a human being was reincarnated as an insect.

        Jivat


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jivat and All,
        > There was one more thing that these "EK Masters"
        > taught and that was Chastity!
        >
        > Even those chelas who are "householders" are to practice
        > chastity after their last child has been born.
        >
        > Twitchell altered the list of Passions vs. Virtures!
        > The Remedy or Virtue opposite Lust is Chastity!
        > [The Path of the Masters, pg. 362]
        >
        > Twitchell changed this and made Contentment
        > to be the opposite of Lust.
        >
        > Really, did Klemp practice Chastity after he had his
        > daughter (Marion), or as LEM/Mahanta after he divorced
        > Marge to marry Joan? I don't think so!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > jivatmananda@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Mish,
        > >
        > > Of course, Klemp is fabricating history, but the funniest thing
        > > is how these "Eck masters" taught things he totally disagrees with
        > > (strict vegetarianism, resurrection of the flesh and human beings
        > > reincarnated as insects). He should definitely be more cautious before
        > > making posthumous promotions to Eck mastership!
        > >
        > > Jivat
        > >
        > mishmisha9@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Etznab and All!
        > > >
        > > > Since Klemp has spoken and written about Pythagoras,
        > > > St. Paul and Milarepa and others, wouldn't it be agreed
        > > > that Klemp is being "fabulous" and is still presently
        > > > fabricating the ancient history and present history of
        > > > eck masters?
        > ***
        > > > For instance, Klemp wrote in his 2005 book, page 206
        > > > Those Wonderful ECK Masters:
        >
        > > > "Some ECK Masters do have spiritual names that stand
        > > > as both first and last names. Some people call Rebazar
        > > > Tarzs 'Rebazar' for short, but his full spiritual name is
        > > > Rebazar Tarzs.
        >
        > > > Lai Tsi's name is also two words; others always address
        > > > him as Lai Tsi.
        >
        > > > Other names are simpler, being only one word. A few that
        > > > come to mind are Milarepa, Agnotti, Castrog, Gakko, Rama"
        > > > and Malati. . . ."
        > ***
        > > > Reading comprehension of the above quote, Klemp is
        > > > saying that Milarepa is an eck master! So isn't it Klemp
        > > > who is fabricating history? It seems so. (shooting one duck).
        > > > BTW, this is in the chapter that Klemp is writing about
        > > > himself as an eck master.
        > > >
        > > > Etznab, since you pointed out that Klemp is the only
        > > > "legal" member of eckankar and that you are looking
        > > > for an "official" statement from eckankar regarding the
        > > > teachings' history, do you consider what Klemp has
        > > > written in his 2005 book Those Wonderful ECK Masters
        > > > official? Or do you think Klemp is fabricating and being
        > > > fabulous?
        > > >
        > > > I'll try to find some other of Klemp's writings in which
        > > > he mentions St. Paul and Pythagoras. It is obvious to
        > > > me and others that it is Klemp who is pulling things out
        > > > of a hat!
        > > >
        > > > But I have to stop for now--I've got other and more fun
        > > > things planned for the day! : )
        > > >
        > > > Mish
        >
      • mishmisha9
        Etznab, Thanks so much for clearing up that you meant by beginning members in eckankar and their inner experiences. In the beginning eckists are basically
        Message 3 of 23 , May 14, 2008
          Etznab,

          Thanks so much for clearing up that you meant by beginning
          members in eckankar and their inner experiences. In the
          beginning eckists are basically confused as to what their earlier
          inner experiences meant or from where they came, but thankfully,
          they have Klemp who can sort it out for them--put his eck
          spin on it and take the credit for it. In other words, Klemp
          and company begins the strategy of manipulating and
          controlling their following. Followers are duped from the start
          into paying a membership fee in order to learn how to become
          God-realized, and over time, the eck teachings just take over
          more and more of a chela's time. This is the goal of the "officials"
          of eckankar. Klemp's book Those Wonderful ECK Masters is a
          supreme tool in trying to sucker in new membership and to
          also keep the present chelas delusional. If one reads that
          "official" book and believes and follows Klemp's instructions
          and spiritual exercises as written there, well, those individuals
          have really flown over the cuckoo's nest!

          Your comments are all interesting and insightful. This one
          in particular seems to be expressing that what Klemp writes
          and says is only somewhat official and that one shouldn't
          take it all seriously! I agree! This entire eckankar org is
          really funny when looking from the outside in, and Klemp
          is only something official--perhaps, an official puppet?
          That is a view that many do have of Klemp and who can
          blame them because it is incredible that such a nerdy and
          actually uninspiring individual could have so much and sole
          power in the eckankar org. How did he achieve that?

          Etznab wrote:
          " By "official" I meant what the "corporation" makes official.
          That "legal" entity. As for your question about what the head
          of Eckankar Inc. says, I guess you could say that makes it
          official. However, much of what Harold has said can be found
          as having been said by someone else before him. But still, is
          it "official Eckankar" when the "Living Eck Master" says it?
          (A good question.) Yes, I imagine it's fair to say that it does
          make for something official from the "outer" master."

          BTW, I don't think Klemp is a puppet, though--looking at
          what Klemp did to Darwin for instance. Klemp bulldozed
          his way through to take the helm of eckankar. I think Klemp
          fooled a lot of people, including Peter Skelsky, who must
          be quite amazed and also perplexed as he stands in the
          wings still--probably waited those 20 years for Klemp to
          step down--and is still waiting for Klemp to hand over
          the rod of eck power. It's not happening, and that in itself
          is comical. Klemp has not kept his word on this, and he's
          becoming more obstinate and delusional as he sputters
          out that he Klemp is the highest consciousness known to
          mankind! I can imagine that there are power plays going
          on behind Klemp's back all the time, but since Klemp is
          still in the power seat can only mean that Klemp has been
          and still is ruthless.

          Etznab wrote:
          "IMO though, a lot of history is bull, or bull piled on top
          of bull, and it takes an awful lot of time to sift through all
          the crap to find the actual REAL truth. it's not always fun,
          and one will inevitably find people who don't like you for
          doing it. Established history is a hard thing to change, IMO.
          And with the weight of a lot of people believing it, that
          makes it only that much harder to budge. It took centuries
          for the Catholic church to admit to certain things and/or make
          the changes official.

          If anything, I want to point out that just because something
          is said, recorded, or believed in by lots of people that doesn't
          mean it is "really" true. Propoganda is one example of what
          I'm talking about. Another is example is popular ignorance."

          Etznab, this is really well expressed--"a lot of history is bull!"
          I agree--actually it's a one sided view of history or in other words
          myth! While you have taken on the diligent task to sort
          through it (something I do not have the patience or interest to
          do), it is really interesting how you have put some of the pieces
          together. However, it must be frustrating and confusing because
          stringing it all together factually is quite a huge job. And as to
          figuring out what people meant, what they actually said and did
          and why, seems to be an insurmountable effort. In other words,
          I don't think one can ever be certain beyond a reasonable doubt
          as to what happened in the past--it all gets reduced to
          speculation in the end, because once again one has to piece
          together half truths and fabrications as well as biased and
          subjective and delusional accounts which then are woven into
          traditional history.

          Mish

          *************************************************************
          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
          >
          > In a message dated 5/13/08 11:11:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
          > mishmisha9@... writes:
          >
          >
          > > Etznab, this following comment of yours makes me
          > > wonder: "I'm almost certain people were having experiences
          > > with the Eck Masters in the beginning. And I believe this is a
          > > big part of the reason some don't want to contradict them
          > > by illustrating actual recorded history. It could affect what
          > > people believe and it could effect the nature of their inner
          > > experiences with Eck Masters."
          >
          > It wasn't illustrated well, but in haste. By "in the beginning"
          > I was referring to the beginning members of Eckankar - their
          > experiences - some of them - one can read about in literature.
          > I'm not saying it makes them "real", but at least real for that
          > person and those who believe them.
          >
          > To take objective historical fact and put it up against those
          > subjective experiences by people can lead to many contradict-
          > ions, IMO. Like looking at so many of Rebazar Tarzs' sayings
          > and then reading The Path of the Masters written in 1939. Or
          > the other Rebazar quotes which match what other people said.
          >
          > By "official" I meant what the "corporation" makes official.
          > That "legal" entity. As for your question about what the head
          > of Eckankar Inc. says, I guess you could say that makes it
          > official. However, much of what Harold has said can be found
          > as having been said by someone else before him. But still, is
          > it "official Eckankar" when the "Living Eck Master" says it?
          > (A good question.) Yes, I imagine it's fair to say that it does
          > make for something official from the "outer" master.
          >
          > I've seen the quotes by other people which are very similar -
          > if not identical - to what allegedly was said by Rebazar Tarzs
          > (or other Eck Masters). It causes me to stop and pause. At
          > least to weigh the information for myself, in spite of what has
          > been said to the contrary. "Official" or not! I'm still looking for
          > the "official" reason for changing of names in some places.
          > falling out of favor with Kirpal Singh may have been a reason,
          > but changing his name to some other name, well ... if I call
          > you by another name, does that mean you become that other
          > person and take on a new history for yourself while everything
          > that went by your other name before disappears not only from
          > history, but from reality?
          >
          > My point was that if you have so many people believing in
          > Rebazar, etc. as "real" physical bodies living (or having lived)
          > on Earth and something historical turns up to contradict that,
          > people are going to wonder what gives. Some won't pursue it,
          > but others will. And I can tell you that I know one Eckist who
          > is not always liked really well (by some other Eckists) for the
          > personal research of Eckankar history that they do. Especially
          > talking about and/or illustrating their findings. Oh, and for ask-
          > ing questions and "going there".
          >
          > I know I didn't pointedly respond to every question put to me
          > recently, but tried to answer what I thought were the most im-
          > portant ones.
          >
          > I'm not saying that my opinion is "gospel", but it takes
          > a lot of extra work to correspond while illustrating this at
          > the same time. It takes a lot of IMO's and other certain
          > words and I don't always do it perfectly. However, if I know
          > something to be a fact beyond a doubt, I'll try to express
          > it as a statement. IMO though, a lot of history is bull, or
          > bull piled on top of bull, and it takes an awful lot of time
          > to sift through all the crap to find the actual REAL truth.
          > It's not always fun, and one will inevitably find people
          > who don't like you for doing it. Established history is a
          > hard thing to change, IMO. And with the weight of a lot
          > of people believing it, that makes it only that much harder
          > to budge. It took centuries for the Catholic church to
          > admit to certain things and/or make the changes official.
          >
          > If anything, I want to point out that just because something
          > is said, recorded, or believed in by lots of people that doesn't
          > mean it is "really" true. Propoganda is one example of what
          > I'm talking about. Another is example is popular ignorance.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > **************
          > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
          > favorites at AOL Food.
          >
          > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          In a message dated 5/14/08 6:42:40 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I don t know the relationship between them and what it was other than what I read. So I m
          Message 4 of 23 , May 14, 2008
            In a message dated 5/14/08 6:42:40 AM Central Daylight Time, ewickings@... writes:


            ME: Kirpal Singh didn't want anything to do with Twit, remember!  Guess I'll have to go find this to prove it, but it is documented that Kipal wanted nothing to do with Paul, for one being a liar and huge story teller....  You and every invested eckists call it a "falling out"  LOL   I find this theory  "if I call you by another name, does that mean you become that other person and take on a new history for yourself "   laughable at best, sounds like something Doug or Rich would spew....  


               I don't know the relationship between them and what it was
            other than what I read. So I'm lacking a lot of this information.
            That is, I haven't heard much from Kirpal's side of things. Most
            of what I heard is from the other side.

               Pointing out the name-calling and the changing of names vs.
            reality, that was my way to illustrate how silly it is.

            Etznab



            **************
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          • etznab@aol.com
            Mish, Enjoyed reading your views. I wanted to share another opinion about the corporate entity (besides the fact the link I gave earlier gave me the
            Message 5 of 23 , May 14, 2008
              Mish,

                 Enjoyed reading your views. I wanted to share another
              opinion about the "corporate entity" (besides the fact the
              link I gave earlier gave me the impression of "an artificial
              immortal entity").

                 Subjective experiences are what they are. Some are
              written in to the official history and some are not. Keep
              in mind the disputes between Darwin & Harold, or who
              was the real Master. Keep in mind (I mean remember?)
              the experiences of Graham Forsyth. It's the man at the
              top who ultimately officiates and whose decisions carry
              no matter what. That is a facet of corporate structure as
              I see it. Another party can always impose it's own will
              on your (a "member's") subjective experience - from a
              position of being "higher on the ladder", so to speak.

                 I can see positive and negative side effects for such
              outer organizational authority.

              Etznab



              **************
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            • jivatmananda
              Etznab, I don t remember seeing you flying among the ducks I was hunting! Who took these feathers away from you? :D I wouldn t dare pulling any of your
              Message 6 of 23 , May 14, 2008
                Etznab,

                I don't remember seeing you flying among the ducks I was hunting! Who
                took these feathers away from you? :D

                I wouldn't dare pulling any of your precious feathers. Your posts are
                great and instructive. Please keep flying! :)

                [Reloading my gun and waiting for my next target]

                Jivat


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > I like to keep my feathers numbered :)
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                >
                >
                > **************
                > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
                > favorites at AOL Food.
                >
                > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Mish and All, Very well stated! In The Wisdom Notes of the June 2008 Mystic World Klemp gives Lessons In History. Basically, HK points to those leaders
                Message 7 of 23 , May 14, 2008
                  Hi Mish and All,
                  Very well stated! In "The Wisdom Notes" of the
                  June 2008 Mystic World Klemp gives "Lessons
                  In History."

                  Basically, HK points to those leaders of nations,
                  in history, who did not learn from the past mistakes
                  of others. He, then, does a play on words in order
                  to complete his summary.

                  HK: "Their unwillingness to learn lessons of history
                  is an echo of karma and reincarnation as they play
                  out in human affairs. The karmic cycle sets forth a
                  vicious round of blunders that feed upon the mistakes
                  of old."

                  ME: And what has Klemp learned from from PT's and
                  DG's mistakes, or his own? How about the way HK treated
                  Darwin, or that Third Temporary Postal Clerk, or Graham
                  Forsyth, or Ford Johnson?

                  HK: "Souls learn hard! That is to say they hardly learn."

                  ME: That's not so! Words games are fun and one can usually
                  turn a phrase around for additional meaning, but it doesn't
                  always work... like in this case. Not very cleaver for the beaver
                  ... (Klempster)!

                  HK: "You, though, are fortunate to have earned the right to
                  have met the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. He shows you
                  you how to learn the lessons of history, and how to apply them
                  in your life." [end of article]

                  ME: Why does Klemp talk in third person about the LEM?
                  I can understand why he does this in regard to to mystical
                  Mahanta, but why with the LEM as physical leader of the
                  outer org of the Eckankar Corporation? Weird!

                  So, is it the LEM or the Mahanta that shows ECKists "how to
                  learn the lessons of history?" Really! The LEM "is" different from
                  the Mahanta... right! Also, wasn't it a good thing that these Souls
                  (Napoleon and Hitler) hadn't learned, from history, of the negative
                  results from invading Russia!

                  [The LEM and KAL... what's the difference in the Lower Worlds?]

                  Actually, Klemp is missing the mark once again! One should
                  ask themselves why it was that neither Napoleon or Hitler was
                  capable of learning from history and of seeing "clearly."

                  It was the same thing that prevents Klemp from seeing clearly!
                  It's narcissism and ego! All three had/have too much power and
                  were/are delusional and insane! I guess Klemp missed this point
                  because it hit too close to home!

                  Prometheus

                  Mish wrote:

                  Etznab, this is really well expressed--"a lot of history is bull!"
                  I agree--actually it's a one sided view of history or in other words
                  myth! ... However, it must be frustrating and confusing because
                  stringing it all together factually is quite a huge job. And as to
                  figuring out what people meant, what they actually said and did
                  and why, seems to be an insurmountable effort. In other words,
                  I don't think one can ever be certain beyond a reasonable doubt
                  as to what happened in the past--it all gets reduced to
                  speculation in the end, because once again one has to piece
                  together half truths and fabrications as well as biased and
                  subjective and delusional accounts which then are woven into
                  traditional history.
                • etznab@aol.com
                  In a message dated 5/14/08 6:58:41 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I was just trying to be funny, and forgiving of myself for not always being articulate as I
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 14, 2008
                    In a message dated 5/14/08 6:58:41 PM Central Daylight Time, jivatmananda@... writes:


                    Etznab,

                    I don't remember seeing you flying among the ducks I was hunting! Who
                    took these feathers away from you? :D

                    I wouldn't dare pulling any of your precious feathers. Your posts are
                    great and instructive. Please keep flying! :)

                    [Reloading my gun and waiting for my next target]

                    Jivat


                       I was just trying to be funny, and forgiving of myself for
                    not always being articulate as I wish. Most of this comes
                    from not taking more time when writing.

                       Did you recognize that line about the feathers? It's from
                    that cartoon with the big fat chicken (Foghorn-Leghorn?)
                    Remember how he would at times loose all his feathers?
                    I was trying to be funny.

                    Etznab



                    **************
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                  • jivatmananda
                    Hi Etznab, It was indeed funny! I just wanted to make sure they weren t any lost bullets in your direction, as I m just after ducks who call themselves Sri .
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 15, 2008
                      Hi Etznab,

                      It was indeed funny! I just wanted to make sure they weren't any lost
                      bullets in your direction, as I'm just after ducks who call themselves
                      "Sri". ;)

                      Jivat

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      > In a message dated 5/14/08 6:58:41 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      > jivatmananda@... writes:

                      > I was just trying to be funny, and forgiving of myself for
                      > not always being articulate as I wish. Most of this comes
                      > from not taking more time when writing.
                      >
                      > Did you recognize that line about the feathers? It's from
                      > that cartoon with the big fat chicken (Foghorn-Leghorn?)
                      > Remember how he would at times loose all his feathers?
                      > I was trying to be funny.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      >
                      > **************
                      > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on
                      > family favorites at AOL Food.
                      >
                      > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
                      >
                    • jivatmananda
                      Hi Prometheus, You said Klemp was giving Lessons In History ? :D Come on Prometheus, you must be kidding. He erased ten years of Eckankar history, distorted
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 15, 2008
                        Hi Prometheus,

                        You said Klemp was giving "Lessons In History"? :D Come on
                        Prometheus, you must be kidding. He erased ten years of Eckankar
                        history, distorted what he couldn't erase and told his chelas that the
                        first human beings were suddenly materialized out of the astral plane.

                        Besides that, he claims that a man who believed human beings could
                        reincarnate as insects is actually an Eck Master who taught the Light
                        and Sound of God. By the way, Milarepa's wasn't really teaching
                        something like the Surat Shabda Yoga (Yoga of the Light and Sound).
                        As a matter-of-fact, Tibetan Buddhism includes many meditations
                        techniques, but its practices and philosophy widely differ from Eckankar.

                        In that context, how does Klemp "shows you how to learn the lessons of
                        history, and how to apply them in your life."?

                        Jivat


                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Mish and All,
                        > Very well stated! In "The Wisdom Notes" of the
                        > June 2008 Mystic World Klemp gives "Lessons
                        > In History."
                        >
                        > Basically, HK points to those leaders of nations,
                        > in history, who did not learn from the past mistakes
                        > of others. He, then, does a play on words in order
                        > to complete his summary.
                        >
                        > HK: "Their unwillingness to learn lessons of history
                        > is an echo of karma and reincarnation as they play
                        > out in human affairs. The karmic cycle sets forth a
                        > vicious round of blunders that feed upon the mistakes
                        > of old."
                        >
                        > ME: And what has Klemp learned from from PT's and
                        > DG's mistakes, or his own? How about the way HK treated
                        > Darwin, or that Third Temporary Postal Clerk, or Graham
                        > Forsyth, or Ford Johnson?
                        >
                        > HK: "Souls learn hard! That is to say they hardly learn."
                        >
                        > ME: That's not so! Words games are fun and one can usually
                        > turn a phrase around for additional meaning, but it doesn't
                        > always work... like in this case. Not very cleaver for the beaver
                        > ... (Klempster)!
                        >
                        > HK: "You, though, are fortunate to have earned the right to
                        > have met the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. He shows you
                        > you how to learn the lessons of history, and how to apply them
                        > in your life." [end of article]
                        >
                        > ME: Why does Klemp talk in third person about the LEM?
                        > I can understand why he does this in regard to to mystical
                        > Mahanta, but why with the LEM as physical leader of the
                        > outer org of the Eckankar Corporation? Weird!
                        >
                        > So, is it the LEM or the Mahanta that shows ECKists "how to
                        > learn the lessons of history?" Really! The LEM "is" different from
                        > the Mahanta... right! Also, wasn't it a good thing that these Souls
                        > (Napoleon and Hitler) hadn't learned, from history, of the negative
                        > results from invading Russia!
                        >
                        > [The LEM and KAL... what's the difference in the Lower Worlds?]
                        >
                        > Actually, Klemp is missing the mark once again! One should
                        > ask themselves why it was that neither Napoleon or Hitler was
                        > capable of learning from history and of seeing "clearly."
                        >
                        > It was the same thing that prevents Klemp from seeing clearly!
                        > It's narcissism and ego! All three had/have too much power and
                        > were/are delusional and insane! I guess Klemp missed this point
                        > because it hit too close to home!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
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