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Re: Klemp Distorts ......

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Christel, Thanks for the post. I do pretty much understand what you are saying. ... EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, christel_heine2003
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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      Hi Christel,
      Thanks for the post. I do pretty much understand what you are saying.

      --- In
      EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "christel_heine2003"
      <Christel-Heine@t...> wrote:

      Prometheus: In Eckankar it seems that one needs a Living Master to
      depend upon while in a physical body and an "Inner" Master even
      longer! A true spiritual teacher should have a physical one-to-one
      relationship with the student and that the student will (in this
      lifetime) become the Master! If one cannot become/realize their own
      Mastership after "X" number of years... then that path or direction
      is a useless distraction and one needs to redirect (and deprogram)
      their life while there is still time!



      > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.
      I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
      love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the eckist's,
      how to see those, who left (in the W.N).

      ***I'm not sure what the W.N. is that you mentioned? Yes, there can
      be many "teachers" in our lives but the one true Master is us! And
      yes HK does not show much love to those Eckists who left and to
      those who have insights and inner experiences, or dreams that
      contradict the Eck dogma and his authority.

      >I noticed, that I couldn't accept an inner master, but surely an
      outer, in his writing f.e. oh no, I also become the answer: in
      religions, there is the heart, but not the mind decisive. in my
      case, the mind would mine, to stay in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang
      with very lovely persons - but, in my heart, no, it couldn't be,
      because, the mahanta was only an outer master, if at all, for me.
      but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
      devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all what
      I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
      and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
      to my open words, to awake hearing, understanding.

      ***Some Eckists have trouble accepting the inner master and others
      have trouble accepting the outer master. An Eckist has to perform a
      really good self-brainwashing to believe both! Yes, one must use
      both the mind and the heart to determine truth. Yes, many H.I.s do
      not truly listen, just like Klemp, and many are ESAs who are
      supposed to be listeners! But, that's just one more distortion of
      many. "Do as I say not as I do" seems to be the motto of Klemp and
      company.

      >I didn't except: accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues
      together. what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists
      are not able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other
      opinions, where ever they come from. they only answers in eck-
      sentences. they are not able, to try coming in the thougts of
      others, isn't so? oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told
      my leaving behind eckankar. the same we could learn in the ddr,
      there, these, who wasn't able to agree, those are no-man! my
      experience, is it compatible to others??? sorry, my english - but I
      hope, perhabs, you could understand, what I'm meaning.
      > greetings christel

      ***Yes, Eckists do not want to hear other opinions, answer
      questions, or listen in general! They think and assume that
      their "truth" is the highest and most valuable. To believe as they
      do they need to close their minds to other possibilities or there
      would be too many questions to answer and doubt would creep in.
      Therefore, only the discussion of Eck dogma (using Eck jargon) is
      acceptable in most conservations. Perhaps it is best for some people
      (it would seem) to live in ignorance and delusion if that is what
      makes them happy. And, isn't happiness or contentment the true
      overall goal of humanity! Anyway, it is too bad that Eckists think
      that they are the only ones who can have valid spiritual
      experiences. To discount the non-Eck experiences of others shows not
      only their own inexperience, but also their small minds and hearts!

      Prometheus
    • ctecvie
      Hello Christel, ... It s true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have one! It s our decision. ... little ... eckist s, ... couldn t ...
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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        Hello Christel,


        > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.

        It's true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have
        one! It's our decision.


        > I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no
        little
        > love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the
        eckist's,
        > how to see those, who left (in the W.N). I noticed, that I
        couldn't
        > accept an inner master, but surely an outer, in his writing f.e.
        > oh no, I also become the answer: in religions, there is the
        heart,
        > but not the mind decisive.

        Such a typical answer in Eckankar - if you question writings, such
        as the last wisdom notes in your case, then the answer is pretty
        often "you are in the mind, you need to go within to find the answer
        for you". 'Mind' has become a real 'no-no' word in Eckankar.

        > in my case, the mind would mine, to stay
        > in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang with very lovely persons - but, in
        my
        > heart, no, it couldn't be, because, the mahanta was only an outer
        > master, if at all, for me.

        Well, it's pretty obvious that your heart is right here. It's true
        that sometimes it's hard to give up the group, the people we have
        come to like over the years. But that's, as you point out (I believe
        I have understood correctly), only the mind. The heart says
        something entirely different!


        > but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
        > devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all
        what
        > I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
        > and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
        to
        > my open words, to awake hearing, understanding. I didn't except:
        > accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues together.

        Yes, it's difficult for them to accept that there's another "truth"
        out there than theirs. So, it's often easier to devaluate the
        messenger (you in that case) than to admit that something's not
        quite right with the teachings and, especially, with the master.
        Discussion is not possible because this would be of the kal.


        > what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists are not
        > able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other opinions,
        where
        > ever they come from. they only answers in eck-sentences. they are
        not
        > able, to try coming in the thougts of others, isn't so?
        > oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told my leaving
        behind
        > eckankar.

        Yes, that's a pity indeed. I think all we can do with those who
        can't accept us as we are - accept them as they are. I know that
        this is easier said than done. I have learned quite a lot about this
        during the last year. Soon, it will be a year that I left! Hooray! :-
        ))

        > the same we could learn in the ddr, there, these, who
        > wasn't able to agree, those are no-man!

        I have found out that it's pretty much the same mechanism in
        oppressing countries like the German Democratic Republic - you can't
        speak your mind, and if you do, this has serious consequences.
        Fortunately, Eckankar isn't quite like that - but you get devaluated
        for sure, and opinions of ex-members or members with serious doubts
        don't count at all.

        > my experience, is it compatible to others???

        Oh, yes!!! For sure!! I have seen pretty much the same thing, and I
        didn't really dare to ask too many questions. Fortunately, I could
        discuss those issues with my husband, so I wasn't all alone.


        > sorry, my english - but I hope, perhabs, you could understand,
        what
        > I'm meaning.

        I think you made yourself quite clear! If there's something you feel
        I didn't understand correctly, just tell me. I'm happy you posted!

        Ingrid
      • ctecvie
        Hello Freefrom, Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it s good to have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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          Hello Freefrom,

          Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it's good to
          have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
          slant. I visit your group from time to time as well - so I'm a lurker,
          too!


          Ingrid
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Freefrom, Yes, it is nice being free from the chains of Eck. I saw that Mish put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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            Hi Freefrom,

            Yes, it is nice being "free from the chains of Eck." I saw that Mish
            put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-chains-of-Eck. It is
            good to have another anti-Eckankar site in order to have more forums
            for discussion, and to share information and experiences.

            Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
            Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
            prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
            and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
            Eckists.

            Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
            stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
            telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.
            It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
            accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
            Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
            experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
            Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
            is misidentified.

            On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
            cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
            erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
            these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
            Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
            and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
            deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
            welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
            look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
            there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
            egos or both it would seem!

            Thanks for posting the link to this site (ESA) onto your site of X-
            Eckankar.

            Prometheus


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
            <eckchains@y...> wrote:

            > Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
            OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
            there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
            rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full
            agreement with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some
            kind of captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and
            if you would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

            > Freefrom
          • Freefrom
            Prometheus wrote... On another note... I m amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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              Prometheus wrote...

              On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
              cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
              erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
              these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
              Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
              and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
              deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
              welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
              look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
              there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
              egos or both it would seem!

              Freefrom:
              *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
              at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
              before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
              path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do with
              family members and "friends" still being involved with eckankrap. It
              is a little bit like an addiction and that magical thinking from
              childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
              to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
              is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

              I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is an
              "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much what
              the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
              expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
              exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
              adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
              as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
              another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending or
              to be forced.*

              Good Fortune

              FreeFrom
            • ctecvie
              ... myself ... This happens to me as well. I think it s not so much about getting completely rid of this pattern (even if it s great when that happens) but to
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom" >

                > *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find
                myself
                > at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                > before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                > path away from my own common sense.

                This happens to me as well. I think it's not so much about getting
                completely rid of this pattern (even if it's great when that happens)
                but to be alert and notice when we are starting to go down that path
                again as you say.

                > Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
                > to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
                > is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

                Exactly.

                > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is
                > an
                > "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much
                >what
                > the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
                > expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
                > exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
                > adaptable.

                Well said! I have noticed that since being out of Eckankar, I have
                become more flexible in my thinking as well. Except, of course, that
                I have come to have a rather rigid opinion of the teaching itself! :-
                ) But as far as the people go, those who are still with Eckankar, I
                have come to a better understanding as well. I can see them as
                seekers who need the experience - just as I needed the experience as
                well, at the time. Of course if discussions start, they still can get
                fairly heated! :-)

                > Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
                > as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
                > another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending
                > or
                > to be forced.

                Truth doesn't need a belief system. The more we become aware that
                Eckankar is just another belief system the better and lighter it
                gets, in my experience.

                Ingrid
              • ctecvie
                Hello Prometheus, ... I have made some great experiences in this field during the last year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                  Hello Prometheus,

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                  > Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
                  > Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
                  > prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
                  > and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
                  > Eckists.

                  I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                  year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                  presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                  anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                  but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                  take that much better than before and just let them be where they are.

                  And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and after
                  discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without blinking an
                  eye. Those were the great experiences.

                  > Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
                  > stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
                  > telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.

                  It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                  doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.


                  > It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
                  > accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
                  > Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
                  > experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
                  > Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
                  > is misidentified.

                  Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once we
                  start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                  amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at the
                  beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I have
                  always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This was so
                  before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I wake up
                  in the morning and know what needs to be done and which decision I
                  need to take.

                  > On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and
                  >other
                  > cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                  > erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                  > these people are even "former" Eckists!

                  I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists are
                  that way - it's in the teachings.

                  > You'd think that being in
                  > Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                  > and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                  > deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                  > welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing!

                  Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just don't
                  question and accept everything an authority tells you! The longer you
                  were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its damage, and so
                  it's not a real surprise for me that some of those who left don't
                  have any discriminations and lack a lot of common sense! Quite
                  natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                  Ingrid
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Freefrom, I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike. Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and individual
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                    Hi Freefrom,

                    I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike.
                    Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and
                    individual experiences as we sort it all out for deeper insights
                    into the big WHY?

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                    <eckchains@y...> wrote:
                    > Prometheus wrote...
                    On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                    cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                    erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                    these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                    Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                    and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                    deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                    welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                    look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                    there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                    egos or both it would seem!

                    > Freefrom:
                    I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                    at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                    before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                    path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do
                    with family members and "friends" still being involved with
                    eckankrap. It is a little bit like an addiction and that magical
                    thinking from childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that
                    there is some truth to spirituality and psychic stuff that does
                    happen, IMO. The problem is when you attribute it all to One org
                    like eeck! (g)

                    ***Yes, it is only natural that one replaces one habit with another
                    or one religion with another. There is a void that needs to be
                    filled. However, with time, Soul fills that void with a greater
                    knowledge of Its own idenity and purpose (happiness/contentment?).
                    One needs to have time to get to know OneSelf when a relationship
                    has ended. There needs to be time for healing and re-evaluation and
                    contemplation... one needs to "chill" for awhile. New and greater
                    experiences await those who are free of the dogma and prejudical
                    beliefs that were mapped out and programed into us for those self-
                    fulling expectations. And, yes there is some truth to the spiritual
                    and psychic stuff that we and others experience, but only some of it
                    is Truth for the individual while only some of it is Truth for us
                    all! No one path or religion has Truth! Actually, if one would take
                    everything written by everyone they would still not find Truth! This
                    may sound like a given, but look at how many people hang onto the
                    words of those they see as "experts" or "Masters!"

                    > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God
                    is an "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so
                    much what the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me
                    that as ego expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not
                    disappear exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter
                    and adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma,
                    such as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is
                    just another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need
                    defending or to be forced.*

                    ***Yes, "God" (IMO) IS! Therefore, how can a total awareness of all
                    that IS lower that awareness to belief and especially to limited or
                    inaccurate beliefs? I'm certain, however, that "God" understands our
                    little escapades (but we don't!) since it all eventually leads to an
                    awareness of the innate cause for why we search for happiness. It is
                    a longing (Soul has) to return to the absolute reality of Being
                    (ISNESS)! Religions, cults and other scams are distractions that
                    pacify and take (trap) our minds (and egos) into "safe" and "secure"
                    little boxes. The (a) reality is that life is more fragile than we
                    can handle, and thus the need for the ego to protect with
                    distractions and delusions!

                    Prometheus
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Ingrid, I thought I d make a few more comments to what you have replied. ... year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented them.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                      Hi Ingrid,

                      I thought I'd make a few more comments to what you have replied.

                      Ingrid wrote:
                      > I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                      year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                      presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                      anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                      but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                      take that much better than before and just let them be where they
                      are.

                      ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                      Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                      of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                      Twitchell like skim! They were too afraid to do a slow read and
                      contemplate on the information. This is what also makes them angry.
                      They are afraid that former Eckists are right! None of them want to
                      return to square one! Eckists are too comfortable in their delusions
                      and want to remain in their own private little Sound Proof Dark
                      Room. As above (with Klemp) so below (with the rank and file)!


                      > And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and
                      after discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without
                      blinking an eye. Those were the great experiences.


                      ***It was more difficult for me to leave. At first, I didn't want to
                      believe what was in front of me, but I really had no choice if I
                      wanted to remain true to myself! That has always been an important
                      factor in being a truth seeker... and truth is so very elusive!
                      However, lucky for me that I have usually recognized an inner
                      guidance when It has presented Itself to me when making crucial
                      decisions. Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                      first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                      the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                      individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!


                      > It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                      doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.

                      ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by thinking
                      that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I would
                      have a break through in higher awareness. It was the "just Be"
                      concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                      Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                      me for quite awhile. However, the more that I watched and listened
                      to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                      heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                      true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                      friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                      and this gave me hope. But, it also pointed out that the initiations
                      were not earned though higher consciousness. And, acting "as if" you
                      are what you imagine yourself to be is a key step (delusion) to
                      becoming a loyal chela, and with time as a paid and always current
                      member... to those higher initiations. <LOL>


                      > Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once
                      we start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                      amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at
                      the beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I
                      have always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This
                      was so before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I
                      wake up in the morning and know what needs to be done and which
                      decision I need to take.

                      ***I usually had the spectacular "inner" experiences, but I did also
                      have the ones of "knowingness" too! Some of my wilder experiences
                      were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                      more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar! I had a
                      friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                      envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                      afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                      her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                      > I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists
                      are that way - it's in the teachings.

                      ***Eckists are members of a private club! They feel privileged
                      (vain) that they have all of that loving guidance and protection and
                      that they are so advanced spiritually! <so sad> Once an Eckist buys
                      into this crap for 25-35 years one doesn't want to know the truth!
                      The truth about Eckankar is a hinderance for obtaining those higher
                      initiations, local and state positions, and speaking engagements at
                      regional and major seminars! This is because some Eckists just like
                      being the center of attention! And, why throw all that away along
                      with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                      truth? I was going to mention the donations of money, but much of
                      that was tax deductible anyway!

                      > Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just
                      don't question and accept everything an authority tells you! The
                      longer you were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its
                      damage, and so it's not a real surprise for me that some of those
                      who left don't have any discriminations and lack a lot of common
                      sense! Quite natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                      ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                      Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a Rountable
                      Discussion, and was surprised that she wasn't asked to explain how
                      that fit in with the Eckankar teachings. I wouldn't, as an ESA, have
                      let that information go by so passively. So, as you can see, I was a
                      good soldier who followed guidelines and was brain-washed to know
                      the Mahanta's mission. But, it was tough being in the field of
                      action. I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                      need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                      finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                      Klump 20 years to write the first complete book! The even funnier
                      thing is that many Eckists are both stubborn and individualistic,
                      and don't follow or believe in guidelines!

                      Prometheus
                    • ctecvie
                      Hello Prometheus, ... The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the same: He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn t like
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
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                        Hello Prometheus,

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                        > ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                        > Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                        > of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                        > Twitchell like skim!

                        The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                        same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't like
                        him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder why he
                        was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                        seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                        was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                        blinded by his "high status"!


                        > ***It was more difficult for me to leave.

                        Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if you
                        want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a decision.
                        There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe diseases,
                        which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really was "the one
                        and only true way"! Of course this is because the master himself has
                        a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his followers just copy
                        him because they think that makes them more like him (which it does,
                        by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                        But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                        don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                        diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                        more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                        in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                        things in my opinion.

                        > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                        > first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                        > the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                        > individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                        We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                        > ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                        >thinking
                        > that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I
                        >would
                        > have a break through in higher awareness.

                        Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                        > It was the "just Be"
                        > concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                        > Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                        > me for quite awhile.

                        When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was nothing
                        new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that by being
                        an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within oneself,
                        so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                        > However, the more that I watched and listened
                        > to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                        > heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                        > true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                        > friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                        > and this gave me hope.

                        Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people out
                        there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                        > Some of my wilder experiences
                        > were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                        > more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar!

                        Yes, exactly!

                        > I had a
                        > friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                        > envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                        > afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                        > her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                        That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to expand
                        it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                        > And, why throw all that away along
                        > with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                        > truth?

                        I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still appreciate,
                        in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the difference
                        between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all are standing
                        in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not believe it! I
                        asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would have to wait
                        for that, and that spiritual development for each of us was much
                        faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                        > ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                        > Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a
                        >rountable
                        > Discussion

                        The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                        Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                        sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                        that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                        > I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                        > need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                        > finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                        > Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                        But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the resas
                        over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody wanted
                        to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess he just
                        couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know all of
                        the most recent books are a rehash of things that were written before.

                        Ingrid
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi Ingrid, We are having some fun here aren t we! I thought I d comment some more. ... Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many of
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
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                          Hi Ingrid,
                          We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                          more.

                          Prometheus wrote:
                          > > >Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                          Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                          of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                          Twitchell like skim!

                          Ingrid wrote:
                          > The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                          same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't
                          like him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder
                          why he was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                          seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                          was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                          blinded by his "high status"!

                          ***Yes, if Ford was so bland or egocentric or whatever the neo nay-
                          sayers claim then why did Klemp (the Mahanta) have him front and
                          center as an International representative for Eckankar!



                          > > >It was more difficult for me to leave.

                          > Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if
                          you want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a
                          decision. There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe
                          diseases, which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really
                          was "the one and only true way"! Of course this is because the
                          master himself has a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his
                          followers just copy him because they think that makes them more like
                          him (which it does, by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                          ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                          traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                          to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                          however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                          the "Prophet!"


                          > But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                          don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                          diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                          more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                          in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                          things in my opinion.

                          ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased as
                          a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                          hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                          that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!



                          > > > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                          first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                          the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                          individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                          > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                          ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!



                          > > >My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                          thinking that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that
                          eventually I would have a break through in higher awareness.

                          > Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                          ***Sometimes I now look back and see how "irrational" I was! I had
                          to talk myself into thinking I was doing the right thing at times. I
                          was very stubborn even with mySelf!



                          > > >It was the "just Be" concept and those like it that always gave
                          me hope. Of course those Higher Initiations were awfully enticing
                          too! They really impressed me for quite awhile.

                          > When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was
                          nothing new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that
                          by being an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within
                          oneself, so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                          ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                          from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                          expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                          are to be more initiations!



                          > > >However, the more that I watched and listened to
                          these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                          heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                          true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                          friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                          and this gave me hope.

                          > Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people
                          out there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                          ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                          easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                          There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.



                          > > >Some of my wilder experiences were before I joined Eckankar,
                          but I have had even more "interesting" experiences since leaving
                          Eckankar!

                          > Yes, exactly!

                          ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                          without a mahanta to second guess Me!



                          > > >I had a friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I
                          sometimes envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is
                          even afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to
                          protect her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her
                          fears!

                          > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                          expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                          ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                          strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                          see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                          is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                          violation of the Four Zoas!



                          > > >And, why throw all that away along with all of those years of
                          service, and initiations for the sake of truth?

                          > I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still
                          appreciate, in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the
                          difference between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all
                          are standing in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not
                          believe it! I asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would
                          have to wait for that, and that spiritual development for each of us
                          was much faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                          ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                          only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                          like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                          those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                          Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                          achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!



                          > > >Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                          Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a rountable
                          Discussion

                          > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                          Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                          sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                          that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                          ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                          this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                          their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                          If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                          countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                          been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                          and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised on
                          the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                          never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                          if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                          Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!


                          > > >I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                          need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                          finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                          Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                          > But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the
                          resas over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody
                          wanted to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess
                          he just couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know
                          all of the most recent books are a rehash of things that were
                          written before.

                          ***True, much of it was from RESA talks, meetings, and letters. Yes
                          Klemp does drag his feet and for a "prophet" he can't see the hand
                          writing on the wall! He just wasn't getting info to the chelas in an
                          organized "same page" like manner through his RESAs. The whole "Eck"
                          organization is screwed up and will just get worse as more demands
                          and controls are exerted.

                          Prometheus
                        • mishmisha9
                          Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the attitudes/beliefs of the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 10, 2005
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                            Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                            several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                            attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                            say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                            and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                            elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                            people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                            them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle! Secondly, it
                            can be quite profitable for you. Since you didn't really make a
                            success with your engineering degree or really want to work in the
                            family business, well, why not take money from fools. It again shows
                            your superiority and cleaverness at conning, which really is just a
                            sport and now has become a lifestyle! LOL!

                            It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                            fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                            trust your inner guidance? Well, I suppose some people in their
                            quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                            their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                            people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some people
                            are always looking to others for answers that should be found within
                            themselves?

                            Ingrid said:
                            >
                            > > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                            > Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and
                            I'm sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                            > that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                            Prometheus replied:
                            >
                            > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                            if this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                            > their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                            > If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                            > countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                            > been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                            > and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised
                            on the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                            > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                            > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                            > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!
                            >
                            >

                            I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                            would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                            sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                            embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                            Mish
                          • ctecvie
                            Hello Prometheus, ... We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-)) ... I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in what you trust. And if
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                              Hello Prometheus,

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                              > Hi Ingrid,
                              > We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                              > more.

                              We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-))


                              > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                              > traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to
                              >go
                              > to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                              > however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                              > the "Prophet!"

                              I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in
                              what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you have
                              to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods as
                              well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and inform
                              ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything that comes
                              up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent in some
                              fields!

                              > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased
                              >as
                              > a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                              > hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                              > that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                              Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies and
                              the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap he
                              uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                              Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!

                              > > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!
                              >
                              > ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!

                              And isn't that soo great! :-)

                              > ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                              > from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                              > expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                              > are to be more initiations!

                              The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                              were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                              serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                              were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                              advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                              a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                              in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                              because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                              enough.

                              > ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                              > easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                              > There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.

                              Indeed. And the best of us were fooled and are still fooled (those
                              who are still in Eckankar).

                              > ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                              > without a mahanta to second guess Me!

                              True and well said! :-)

                              > > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                              > expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!
                              >
                              > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                              > strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do
                              >they
                              > see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                              > is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                              > violation of the Four Zoas!

                              LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                              big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)

                              > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                              > only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                              > like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                              > those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                              > Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                              > achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                              The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization" experience!
                              And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to have been, with
                              all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that local magazine! But,
                              you know, Prometheus - we women will become men in the next few
                              lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the LEM/mahanta! :-)

                              > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                              > this person has tried this technique?

                              I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about experiences
                              of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!

                              > So, what can I say... except that some people will
                              > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                              > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                              > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!

                              Yes, some people will never learn. And if I want to learn sun gazing,
                              why follow a con man? It's perhaps enough to inform myself on how to
                              do it, and then just do it and take perhaps follow-up sessions from
                              time to time! That is, if I really want to try it. I'm not
                              interested - but I have the freedom to do so, if I wish to do so -
                              and not because somebody else tells me that "this is it"!

                              Ingrid
                            • ctecvie
                              Hello Mish, I can see that you love sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...) ... That s true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be fooled so
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                Hello Mish,

                                I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                                > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                                > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                                > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                                > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                                > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!

                                That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                fooled so easily sometimes!

                                > Secondly, it
                                > can be quite profitable for you.

                                This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that he
                                knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed him
                                because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all are!

                                > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                                > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                                > trust your inner guidance?

                                Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be a
                                fool ...!! :-D

                                > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                                > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                >people
                                > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                within
                                > themselves?

                                I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes and
                                see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary things
                                because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in the
                                morning and being grateful for the day!

                                > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                                > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                                > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                                And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                Ingrid
                              • mishmisha9
                                Well, I think sun gazing might work for those few people whose brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would go to one of those sun
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                  Well, I think sun gazing might work for those "few" people whose
                                  brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would
                                  go to one of those sun gazing workshops would fall into that
                                  category! : ) So, I guess it would seem "real" to those
                                  already "blind" to reality. Yes, the brain is capable of being
                                  tricked!

                                  Mish

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                                  <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                                  > Hello Mish,
                                  >
                                  > I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                  > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                  > > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle
                                  East
                                  > > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                  > > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I
                                  would
                                  > > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part
                                  sport
                                  > > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and
                                  it
                                  > > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                  > > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter
                                  than
                                  > > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!
                                  >
                                  > That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                  > fooled so easily sometimes!
                                  >
                                  > > Secondly, it
                                  > > can be quite profitable for you.
                                  >
                                  > This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                  > similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that
                                  he
                                  > knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                  > talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                  > could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                  > wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed
                                  him
                                  > because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all
                                  are!
                                  >
                                  > > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of
                                  being
                                  > > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not
                                  just
                                  > > trust your inner guidance?
                                  >
                                  > Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be
                                  a
                                  > fool ...!! :-D
                                  >
                                  > > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                  > > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                  > > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it
                                  some
                                  > > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                  > >people
                                  > > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                  > within
                                  > > themselves?
                                  >
                                  > I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                  > finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes
                                  and
                                  > see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                  > enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary
                                  things
                                  > because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                  > enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in
                                  the
                                  > morning and being grateful for the day!
                                  >
                                  > > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And
                                  why
                                  > > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                  > > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd
                                  be
                                  > > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )
                                  >
                                  > And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                  > Ingrid
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hi Ingrid, This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum ... traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go to Mexico
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                    Hi Ingrid,
                                    This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum

                                    > > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                    traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                    to Mexico for Layatril treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                    however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                    the "Prophet!"

                                    > I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course
                                    in what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you
                                    have to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods
                                    as well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and
                                    inform ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything
                                    that comes up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent
                                    in some fields!


                                    ###True, However, the Layatril treatments were proven to be a scam
                                    to rob sick, rich and desparate Americans (mostly) of their money.
                                    One could say that it did give some people hope, but it also
                                    prevented many from receiving needed traditional treatment. Rod
                                    Stewart had lytics in song mentioning Latatril but I'm not sure if
                                    it was "Better off Dead" or "Foolish Behavior?"



                                    > > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have
                                    increased as a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear
                                    induced mass hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if"
                                    thinking that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                    > Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies
                                    and the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap
                                    he uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                    Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!



                                    ###Yes, and the Youths in Eck are being brainwashed with this same
                                    crap! What will happen to them, I wonder, when they come out of the
                                    fog and realize the truth when seeing the lies?



                                    > > ***Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes from the stress
                                    of being in a leadership position and the expectations of the
                                    hierarchy! More and more is expected if there are to be more
                                    initiations!

                                    > The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                    were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                    serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                    were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                    advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                    a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                    in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                    because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                    enough.


                                    ### Yes, some H.I.s don't want to accept the truth about the
                                    computer generated pink slips for initiation either! It takes away
                                    from the magic and mystical imaginings and masks the deception of
                                    the fraud. Yes, I also know what you mean by people acting
                                    too "sweet." I knew a RESA who would give Eckists a hug and then
                                    say, "I love you!" This was her "thing" for awhile, and it seemed
                                    quite inappropriate and over the top! It caught people off guard and
                                    was something only a "RESA" could get away with. No one else could
                                    or would do this, because then those special words would
                                    (eventually) have no meaning or value if said so casually and
                                    recklessly.



                                    > > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                    strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                    see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                    is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                    violation of the Four Zoas!

                                    > LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                    big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)


                                    ### Yes, funny how the truth can become negative when it is not
                                    their truth, or when they (Eckists) are not ready to hear it!



                                    > > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks
                                    like only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way
                                    this is like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals
                                    would be those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves
                                    like the Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned
                                    with achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                    > The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization"
                                    experience! And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to
                                    have been, with all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that
                                    local magazine! But, you know, Prometheus - we women will become men
                                    in the next few lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the
                                    LEM/mahanta! :-)


                                    ### Yes, that's the Catch-22 of the scam! I guess that one or two
                                    Catholic women (living today) can become the Pope in their next or
                                    some other futuristic incarnation! What are the odds?



                                    > > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                    if this person has tried this technique? <Sun Gazing>

                                    > I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about
                                    experiences of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!


                                    ### Right, I doubt if this person has done any Sun Gazing on her
                                    own, but she is of that mind set to try anything and everything
                                    others have to offer. Too bad that she doesn't have more Self-
                                    confidence in her own Self by now.

                                    Prometheus
                                  • mishmisha9
                                    Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar sites
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 31, 2006
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                                      Hi, Everyone!

                                      This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                      the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                      sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                      mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                      you enjoy!

                                      *********************************
                                      It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                      truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                      Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                      discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                      have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                      experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                      The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                      others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                      this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                      you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                      feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                      truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                      will continue.

                                      For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                      for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                      you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                      have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                      can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                      because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                      in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                      working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                      grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                      matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                      making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                      to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                      not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                      can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                      help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                      very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                      I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                      which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                      about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                      Mish

                                      >
                                      > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                      > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                      about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                      least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                      guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                      freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                      have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                      mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                      Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                      back to a 1st like Graham!
                                      >
                                    • eyesopen444
                                      Mishmisha9 wrote: Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Mar 31, 2006
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                                        Mishmisha9 wrote:

                                        Hi, Everyone!

                                        This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                        the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                        sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                        mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                        you enjoy!

                                        *********************************
                                        It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                        truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                        Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                        discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                        have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                        experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                        The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                        others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                        this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                        you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                        feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                        truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                        will continue.

                                        For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                        for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                        you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                        have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                        can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                        because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                        in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                        working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                        grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                        matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                        making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                        to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                        not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                        can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                        help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                        very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                        I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                        which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                        about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                        Mish

                                        >
                                        > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                        > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                        about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                        least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                        guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                        freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                        have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                        mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                        Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                        back to a 1st like Graham!
                                        >
                                        ######################################################################

                                        ME:

                                        Hi Everyone!

                                        I'm pleased to express my reasons for reading/posting on ESA and ET.
                                        First of all, I'm glad they exist! In all the years I spent reading
                                        ekult books and discourses and those spiritual exercises - it seemed
                                        to me that I got as far as I was ever going to get in ekult within the
                                        first five years or so. I had too many other things going on in my
                                        life to pursue another path, so I trusted ekult and repressed my
                                        questions and doubts and hoped for the best. The thing about Spirit
                                        (IMHO) is that It will not be content to remain on a dead-end path. It
                                        is our spiritual nature to desire continued growth and more knowledge.
                                        My unanswered questions and unease with ekult kept returning.

                                        I contacted my area HI and "joined in" at a few worship services,
                                        which turned out to be pretty bizarre. I met long time members, some
                                        expressed self-doubt and couldn't understand why they had not achieved
                                        a higher initiation level (this is such an effective control
                                        technique, I'm sorry to say), others seemed almost manic with their
                                        efforts to appear happy and sooo full of Spirit. All this did was
                                        creep me out and I KNEW that I wasn't going to get any answers from
                                        these people.

                                        The next logical step in my mind was to check out the internet.<SMILE>
                                        I quickly found these "anti-eck" sites and spent several weekends
                                        exploring every link and site that I could find. When I first learned
                                        the truth, I was shocked and hurt but also fascinated. I'll admit, I
                                        was also angry! But, because of these sites, I felt the comfort of not
                                        being alone, I enjoyed the humor shared and was able to forgive myself
                                        for being taken in by such a scam.

                                        I thank Prometheus, Sharon, Liz, Mish, Alf and all of the other great
                                        posters on these sites. HUGS to you all! I don't think that I would
                                        have worked through this as quickly or as well without your help.
                                        THANK YOU!!

                                        I didn't join out of anger, revenge or hatred. Quite the opposite.
                                        I joined because I want to help those who will follow and are now
                                        where we all once were.

                                        I don't consider these "anti-eck" sites but rather as a source of
                                        TRUTH. These sites would not be needed if ekult was not a sham and HK
                                        would tell the truth. People are being hurt and balance is needed.

                                        Thanks for listening.

                                        Have Fun!

                                        Kaye
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