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Re: Klemp Distorts ......

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Mish, Yes, one s own spiritual learning and understanding transcends Eckankar! Sometimes I think that Eckankar helped me to have a better understanding of
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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      Hi Mish,

      Yes, one's own spiritual learning and understanding transcends
      Eckankar! Sometimes I think that Eckankar helped me to have a better
      understanding of other Eastern spiritual knowledge, but I also
      realize that Twitchell's creation (Eckankar) is an embellished and
      fictional scam with a distorted but Westernized version of Sant Mat,
      Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Surat Shabd Yoga along with a some
      others thrown in for good measure. The real disservice comes not
      only with the continued lies from Klemp, but with the promotion that
      one needs a Living Master to depend upon while in a physical body
      and an "Inner" Master even longer! A true spiritual teacher should
      have a physical one-to-one relationship with the student and that
      the student will (in this lifetime) become the Master! If one cannot
      become/realize their own Mastership after "X" number of years...
      then that path or direction is a useless distraction and one needs
      to redirect (and deprogram) their life while there is still time!

      Prometheus


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

      > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
      for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
      you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
      have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
      can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
      because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
      in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
      working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
      grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
      matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
      making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
      to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
      not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
      can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
      help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
      very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
    • christel_heine2003
      that ... cannot ... o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher. I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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        that
        > one needs a Living Master to depend upon while in a physical body
        > and an "Inner" Master even longer! A true spiritual teacher should
        > have a physical one-to-one relationship with the student and that
        > the student will (in this lifetime) become the Master! If one
        cannot
        > become/realize their own Mastership after "X" number of years...
        > then that path or direction is a useless distraction and one needs
        > to redirect (and deprogram) their life while there is still time!

        o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.
        I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
        love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the eckist's,
        how to see those, who left (in the W.N). I noticed, that I couldn't
        accept an inner master, but surely an outer, in his writing f.e.
        oh no, I also become the answer: in religions, there is the heart,
        but not the mind decisive. in my case, the mind would mine, to stay
        in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang with very lovely persons - but, in my
        heart, no, it couldn't be, because, the mahanta was only an outer
        master, if at all, for me.
        but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
        devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all what
        I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
        and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing to
        my open words, to awake hearing, understanding. I didn't except:
        accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues together.
        what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists are not
        able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other opinions, where
        ever they come from. they only answers in eck-sentences. they are not
        able, to try coming in the thougts of others, isn't so?
        oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told my leaving behind
        eckankar. the same we could learn in the ddr, there, these, who
        wasn't able to agree, those are no-man!
        my experience, is it compatible to others???
        sorry, my english - but I hope, perhabs, you could understand, what
        I'm meaning.
        greetings christel

        >
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
        > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
        >
        > > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping
        stone
        > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
        > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
        > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest
        and
        > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
        > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we
        have
        > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
        > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
        > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
        > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar
        by
        > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and
        lessons
        > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
        > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and
        you
        > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
        > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it
        is
        > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
      • Freefrom
        Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that s OK. Figured it couldn t hurt, although I did inherit the group and there are still some
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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          Thanks,

          I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
          OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
          there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
          rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full agreement
          with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some kind of
          captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and if you
          would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

          Freefrom

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
          > Hi, Freefrom!
          >
          > Sure you may post my message on your site. I do venture over there
          > once in a while myself, so I guess I am a lurker! : ) I agree it is
          > good to have several "anti eckancrap groups around!" Glad you
          > participate here too!
          >
          > Mish
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
          > <eckchains@y...> wrote:
          > > Hi Mish,
          > >
          > > I couldn't have said it better myself! Really good post. Would you
          > > mind if I reposted it in my Yahoo group, "X-Eckankar: The chains of
          > > Eck". This group is much more active than mine. I have a lot of
          > > lerkers I think, but I believe it is important to have several anti
          > > eckancrap groups around, even if they have a slightly different
          > focus
          > > or slant. Thanks for the post, very well put. (Prometheus too)
          > >
          > > Freefrom
          > >
          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          > > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
          > > > It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
          > > > truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
          > > > Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of
          > these
          > > > discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
          > > > have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
          > > > experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its
          > spell.
          > > > The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
          > > > others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
          > > > this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really
          > draws
          > > > you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
          > > > feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out,
          > the
          > > > truth will just be buried once more and the
          > delusion/lies/deceptions
          > > > will continue.
          > > >
          > > > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping
          > stone
          > > > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense.
          > Sure,
          > > > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that
          > would
          > > > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest
          > and
          > > > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
          > > > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we
          > have
          > > > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge
          > Spirit
          > > > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times,
          > we
          > > > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
          > > > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in
          > Eckankar by
          > > > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and
          > lessons
          > > > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
          > > > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and
          > you
          > > > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will
          > truly
          > > > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus,
          > it is
          > > > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
          > > >
          > > > I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express
          > that
          > > > which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the
          > truth
          > > > about Eckankar! Thanks!
          > > >
          > > > Mish
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > Prometheus
          > > > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
          > about
          > > > > being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
          > least
          > > > we
          > > > > are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the guilt
          > of
          > > > > being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
          > > > freedom
          > > > > without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
          > have
          > > > to
          > > > > watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
          > > > mentioned
          > > > > on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
          > Because
          > > > you
          > > > > can lose that next initiation or position or even be put back
          > to a
          > > > > 1st like Graham!
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Christel, Thanks for the post. I do pretty much understand what you are saying. ... EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, christel_heine2003
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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            Hi Christel,
            Thanks for the post. I do pretty much understand what you are saying.

            --- In
            EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "christel_heine2003"
            <Christel-Heine@t...> wrote:

            Prometheus: In Eckankar it seems that one needs a Living Master to
            depend upon while in a physical body and an "Inner" Master even
            longer! A true spiritual teacher should have a physical one-to-one
            relationship with the student and that the student will (in this
            lifetime) become the Master! If one cannot become/realize their own
            Mastership after "X" number of years... then that path or direction
            is a useless distraction and one needs to redirect (and deprogram)
            their life while there is still time!



            > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.
            I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
            love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the eckist's,
            how to see those, who left (in the W.N).

            ***I'm not sure what the W.N. is that you mentioned? Yes, there can
            be many "teachers" in our lives but the one true Master is us! And
            yes HK does not show much love to those Eckists who left and to
            those who have insights and inner experiences, or dreams that
            contradict the Eck dogma and his authority.

            >I noticed, that I couldn't accept an inner master, but surely an
            outer, in his writing f.e. oh no, I also become the answer: in
            religions, there is the heart, but not the mind decisive. in my
            case, the mind would mine, to stay in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang
            with very lovely persons - but, in my heart, no, it couldn't be,
            because, the mahanta was only an outer master, if at all, for me.
            but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
            devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all what
            I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
            and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
            to my open words, to awake hearing, understanding.

            ***Some Eckists have trouble accepting the inner master and others
            have trouble accepting the outer master. An Eckist has to perform a
            really good self-brainwashing to believe both! Yes, one must use
            both the mind and the heart to determine truth. Yes, many H.I.s do
            not truly listen, just like Klemp, and many are ESAs who are
            supposed to be listeners! But, that's just one more distortion of
            many. "Do as I say not as I do" seems to be the motto of Klemp and
            company.

            >I didn't except: accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues
            together. what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists
            are not able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other
            opinions, where ever they come from. they only answers in eck-
            sentences. they are not able, to try coming in the thougts of
            others, isn't so? oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told
            my leaving behind eckankar. the same we could learn in the ddr,
            there, these, who wasn't able to agree, those are no-man! my
            experience, is it compatible to others??? sorry, my english - but I
            hope, perhabs, you could understand, what I'm meaning.
            > greetings christel

            ***Yes, Eckists do not want to hear other opinions, answer
            questions, or listen in general! They think and assume that
            their "truth" is the highest and most valuable. To believe as they
            do they need to close their minds to other possibilities or there
            would be too many questions to answer and doubt would creep in.
            Therefore, only the discussion of Eck dogma (using Eck jargon) is
            acceptable in most conservations. Perhaps it is best for some people
            (it would seem) to live in ignorance and delusion if that is what
            makes them happy. And, isn't happiness or contentment the true
            overall goal of humanity! Anyway, it is too bad that Eckists think
            that they are the only ones who can have valid spiritual
            experiences. To discount the non-Eck experiences of others shows not
            only their own inexperience, but also their small minds and hearts!

            Prometheus
          • ctecvie
            Hello Christel, ... It s true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have one! It s our decision. ... little ... eckist s, ... couldn t ...
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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              Hello Christel,


              > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.

              It's true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have
              one! It's our decision.


              > I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no
              little
              > love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the
              eckist's,
              > how to see those, who left (in the W.N). I noticed, that I
              couldn't
              > accept an inner master, but surely an outer, in his writing f.e.
              > oh no, I also become the answer: in religions, there is the
              heart,
              > but not the mind decisive.

              Such a typical answer in Eckankar - if you question writings, such
              as the last wisdom notes in your case, then the answer is pretty
              often "you are in the mind, you need to go within to find the answer
              for you". 'Mind' has become a real 'no-no' word in Eckankar.

              > in my case, the mind would mine, to stay
              > in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang with very lovely persons - but, in
              my
              > heart, no, it couldn't be, because, the mahanta was only an outer
              > master, if at all, for me.

              Well, it's pretty obvious that your heart is right here. It's true
              that sometimes it's hard to give up the group, the people we have
              come to like over the years. But that's, as you point out (I believe
              I have understood correctly), only the mind. The heart says
              something entirely different!


              > but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
              > devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all
              what
              > I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
              > and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
              to
              > my open words, to awake hearing, understanding. I didn't except:
              > accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues together.

              Yes, it's difficult for them to accept that there's another "truth"
              out there than theirs. So, it's often easier to devaluate the
              messenger (you in that case) than to admit that something's not
              quite right with the teachings and, especially, with the master.
              Discussion is not possible because this would be of the kal.


              > what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists are not
              > able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other opinions,
              where
              > ever they come from. they only answers in eck-sentences. they are
              not
              > able, to try coming in the thougts of others, isn't so?
              > oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told my leaving
              behind
              > eckankar.

              Yes, that's a pity indeed. I think all we can do with those who
              can't accept us as we are - accept them as they are. I know that
              this is easier said than done. I have learned quite a lot about this
              during the last year. Soon, it will be a year that I left! Hooray! :-
              ))

              > the same we could learn in the ddr, there, these, who
              > wasn't able to agree, those are no-man!

              I have found out that it's pretty much the same mechanism in
              oppressing countries like the German Democratic Republic - you can't
              speak your mind, and if you do, this has serious consequences.
              Fortunately, Eckankar isn't quite like that - but you get devaluated
              for sure, and opinions of ex-members or members with serious doubts
              don't count at all.

              > my experience, is it compatible to others???

              Oh, yes!!! For sure!! I have seen pretty much the same thing, and I
              didn't really dare to ask too many questions. Fortunately, I could
              discuss those issues with my husband, so I wasn't all alone.


              > sorry, my english - but I hope, perhabs, you could understand,
              what
              > I'm meaning.

              I think you made yourself quite clear! If there's something you feel
              I didn't understand correctly, just tell me. I'm happy you posted!

              Ingrid
            • ctecvie
              Hello Freefrom, Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it s good to have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                Hello Freefrom,

                Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it's good to
                have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
                slant. I visit your group from time to time as well - so I'm a lurker,
                too!


                Ingrid
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Freefrom, Yes, it is nice being free from the chains of Eck. I saw that Mish put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                  Hi Freefrom,

                  Yes, it is nice being "free from the chains of Eck." I saw that Mish
                  put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-chains-of-Eck. It is
                  good to have another anti-Eckankar site in order to have more forums
                  for discussion, and to share information and experiences.

                  Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
                  Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
                  prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
                  and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
                  Eckists.

                  Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
                  stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
                  telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.
                  It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
                  accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
                  Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
                  experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
                  Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
                  is misidentified.

                  On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                  cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                  erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                  these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                  Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                  and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                  deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                  welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                  look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                  there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                  egos or both it would seem!

                  Thanks for posting the link to this site (ESA) onto your site of X-
                  Eckankar.

                  Prometheus


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                  <eckchains@y...> wrote:

                  > Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
                  OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
                  there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
                  rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full
                  agreement with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some
                  kind of captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and
                  if you would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

                  > Freefrom
                • Freefrom
                  Prometheus wrote... On another note... I m amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                    Prometheus wrote...

                    On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                    cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                    erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                    these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                    Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                    and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                    deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                    welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                    look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                    there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                    egos or both it would seem!

                    Freefrom:
                    *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                    at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                    before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                    path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do with
                    family members and "friends" still being involved with eckankrap. It
                    is a little bit like an addiction and that magical thinking from
                    childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
                    to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
                    is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

                    I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is an
                    "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much what
                    the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
                    expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
                    exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
                    adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
                    as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
                    another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending or
                    to be forced.*

                    Good Fortune

                    FreeFrom
                  • ctecvie
                    ... myself ... This happens to me as well. I think it s not so much about getting completely rid of this pattern (even if it s great when that happens) but to
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom" >

                      > *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find
                      myself
                      > at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                      > before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                      > path away from my own common sense.

                      This happens to me as well. I think it's not so much about getting
                      completely rid of this pattern (even if it's great when that happens)
                      but to be alert and notice when we are starting to go down that path
                      again as you say.

                      > Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
                      > to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
                      > is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

                      Exactly.

                      > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is
                      > an
                      > "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much
                      >what
                      > the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
                      > expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
                      > exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
                      > adaptable.

                      Well said! I have noticed that since being out of Eckankar, I have
                      become more flexible in my thinking as well. Except, of course, that
                      I have come to have a rather rigid opinion of the teaching itself! :-
                      ) But as far as the people go, those who are still with Eckankar, I
                      have come to a better understanding as well. I can see them as
                      seekers who need the experience - just as I needed the experience as
                      well, at the time. Of course if discussions start, they still can get
                      fairly heated! :-)

                      > Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
                      > as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
                      > another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending
                      > or
                      > to be forced.

                      Truth doesn't need a belief system. The more we become aware that
                      Eckankar is just another belief system the better and lighter it
                      gets, in my experience.

                      Ingrid
                    • ctecvie
                      Hello Prometheus, ... I have made some great experiences in this field during the last year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                        Hello Prometheus,

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                        > Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
                        > Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
                        > prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
                        > and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
                        > Eckists.

                        I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                        year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                        presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                        anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                        but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                        take that much better than before and just let them be where they are.

                        And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and after
                        discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without blinking an
                        eye. Those were the great experiences.

                        > Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
                        > stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
                        > telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.

                        It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                        doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.


                        > It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
                        > accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
                        > Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
                        > experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
                        > Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
                        > is misidentified.

                        Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once we
                        start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                        amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at the
                        beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I have
                        always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This was so
                        before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I wake up
                        in the morning and know what needs to be done and which decision I
                        need to take.

                        > On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and
                        >other
                        > cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                        > erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                        > these people are even "former" Eckists!

                        I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists are
                        that way - it's in the teachings.

                        > You'd think that being in
                        > Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                        > and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                        > deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                        > welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing!

                        Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just don't
                        question and accept everything an authority tells you! The longer you
                        were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its damage, and so
                        it's not a real surprise for me that some of those who left don't
                        have any discriminations and lack a lot of common sense! Quite
                        natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                        Ingrid
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi Freefrom, I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike. Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and individual
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                          Hi Freefrom,

                          I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike.
                          Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and
                          individual experiences as we sort it all out for deeper insights
                          into the big WHY?

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                          <eckchains@y...> wrote:
                          > Prometheus wrote...
                          On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                          cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                          erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                          these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                          Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                          and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                          deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                          welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                          look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                          there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                          egos or both it would seem!

                          > Freefrom:
                          I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                          at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                          before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                          path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do
                          with family members and "friends" still being involved with
                          eckankrap. It is a little bit like an addiction and that magical
                          thinking from childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that
                          there is some truth to spirituality and psychic stuff that does
                          happen, IMO. The problem is when you attribute it all to One org
                          like eeck! (g)

                          ***Yes, it is only natural that one replaces one habit with another
                          or one religion with another. There is a void that needs to be
                          filled. However, with time, Soul fills that void with a greater
                          knowledge of Its own idenity and purpose (happiness/contentment?).
                          One needs to have time to get to know OneSelf when a relationship
                          has ended. There needs to be time for healing and re-evaluation and
                          contemplation... one needs to "chill" for awhile. New and greater
                          experiences await those who are free of the dogma and prejudical
                          beliefs that were mapped out and programed into us for those self-
                          fulling expectations. And, yes there is some truth to the spiritual
                          and psychic stuff that we and others experience, but only some of it
                          is Truth for the individual while only some of it is Truth for us
                          all! No one path or religion has Truth! Actually, if one would take
                          everything written by everyone they would still not find Truth! This
                          may sound like a given, but look at how many people hang onto the
                          words of those they see as "experts" or "Masters!"

                          > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God
                          is an "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so
                          much what the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me
                          that as ego expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not
                          disappear exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter
                          and adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma,
                          such as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is
                          just another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need
                          defending or to be forced.*

                          ***Yes, "God" (IMO) IS! Therefore, how can a total awareness of all
                          that IS lower that awareness to belief and especially to limited or
                          inaccurate beliefs? I'm certain, however, that "God" understands our
                          little escapades (but we don't!) since it all eventually leads to an
                          awareness of the innate cause for why we search for happiness. It is
                          a longing (Soul has) to return to the absolute reality of Being
                          (ISNESS)! Religions, cults and other scams are distractions that
                          pacify and take (trap) our minds (and egos) into "safe" and "secure"
                          little boxes. The (a) reality is that life is more fragile than we
                          can handle, and thus the need for the ego to protect with
                          distractions and delusions!

                          Prometheus
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Ingrid, I thought I d make a few more comments to what you have replied. ... year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented them.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                            Hi Ingrid,

                            I thought I'd make a few more comments to what you have replied.

                            Ingrid wrote:
                            > I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                            year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                            presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                            anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                            but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                            take that much better than before and just let them be where they
                            are.

                            ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                            Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                            of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                            Twitchell like skim! They were too afraid to do a slow read and
                            contemplate on the information. This is what also makes them angry.
                            They are afraid that former Eckists are right! None of them want to
                            return to square one! Eckists are too comfortable in their delusions
                            and want to remain in their own private little Sound Proof Dark
                            Room. As above (with Klemp) so below (with the rank and file)!


                            > And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and
                            after discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without
                            blinking an eye. Those were the great experiences.


                            ***It was more difficult for me to leave. At first, I didn't want to
                            believe what was in front of me, but I really had no choice if I
                            wanted to remain true to myself! That has always been an important
                            factor in being a truth seeker... and truth is so very elusive!
                            However, lucky for me that I have usually recognized an inner
                            guidance when It has presented Itself to me when making crucial
                            decisions. Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                            first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                            the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                            individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!


                            > It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                            doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.

                            ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by thinking
                            that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I would
                            have a break through in higher awareness. It was the "just Be"
                            concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                            Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                            me for quite awhile. However, the more that I watched and listened
                            to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                            heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                            true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                            friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                            and this gave me hope. But, it also pointed out that the initiations
                            were not earned though higher consciousness. And, acting "as if" you
                            are what you imagine yourself to be is a key step (delusion) to
                            becoming a loyal chela, and with time as a paid and always current
                            member... to those higher initiations. <LOL>


                            > Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once
                            we start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                            amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at
                            the beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I
                            have always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This
                            was so before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I
                            wake up in the morning and know what needs to be done and which
                            decision I need to take.

                            ***I usually had the spectacular "inner" experiences, but I did also
                            have the ones of "knowingness" too! Some of my wilder experiences
                            were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                            more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar! I had a
                            friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                            envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                            afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                            her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                            > I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists
                            are that way - it's in the teachings.

                            ***Eckists are members of a private club! They feel privileged
                            (vain) that they have all of that loving guidance and protection and
                            that they are so advanced spiritually! <so sad> Once an Eckist buys
                            into this crap for 25-35 years one doesn't want to know the truth!
                            The truth about Eckankar is a hinderance for obtaining those higher
                            initiations, local and state positions, and speaking engagements at
                            regional and major seminars! This is because some Eckists just like
                            being the center of attention! And, why throw all that away along
                            with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                            truth? I was going to mention the donations of money, but much of
                            that was tax deductible anyway!

                            > Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just
                            don't question and accept everything an authority tells you! The
                            longer you were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its
                            damage, and so it's not a real surprise for me that some of those
                            who left don't have any discriminations and lack a lot of common
                            sense! Quite natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                            ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                            Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a Rountable
                            Discussion, and was surprised that she wasn't asked to explain how
                            that fit in with the Eckankar teachings. I wouldn't, as an ESA, have
                            let that information go by so passively. So, as you can see, I was a
                            good soldier who followed guidelines and was brain-washed to know
                            the Mahanta's mission. But, it was tough being in the field of
                            action. I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                            need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                            finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                            Klump 20 years to write the first complete book! The even funnier
                            thing is that many Eckists are both stubborn and individualistic,
                            and don't follow or believe in guidelines!

                            Prometheus
                          • ctecvie
                            Hello Prometheus, ... The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the same: He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn t like
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
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                              Hello Prometheus,

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                              > ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                              > Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                              > of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                              > Twitchell like skim!

                              The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                              same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't like
                              him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder why he
                              was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                              seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                              was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                              blinded by his "high status"!


                              > ***It was more difficult for me to leave.

                              Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if you
                              want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a decision.
                              There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe diseases,
                              which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really was "the one
                              and only true way"! Of course this is because the master himself has
                              a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his followers just copy
                              him because they think that makes them more like him (which it does,
                              by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                              But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                              don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                              diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                              more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                              in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                              things in my opinion.

                              > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                              > first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                              > the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                              > individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                              We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                              > ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                              >thinking
                              > that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I
                              >would
                              > have a break through in higher awareness.

                              Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                              > It was the "just Be"
                              > concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                              > Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                              > me for quite awhile.

                              When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was nothing
                              new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that by being
                              an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within oneself,
                              so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                              > However, the more that I watched and listened
                              > to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                              > heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                              > true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                              > friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                              > and this gave me hope.

                              Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people out
                              there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                              > Some of my wilder experiences
                              > were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                              > more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar!

                              Yes, exactly!

                              > I had a
                              > friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                              > envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                              > afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                              > her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                              That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to expand
                              it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                              > And, why throw all that away along
                              > with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                              > truth?

                              I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still appreciate,
                              in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the difference
                              between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all are standing
                              in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not believe it! I
                              asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would have to wait
                              for that, and that spiritual development for each of us was much
                              faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                              > ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                              > Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a
                              >rountable
                              > Discussion

                              The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                              Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                              sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                              that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                              > I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                              > need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                              > finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                              > Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                              But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the resas
                              over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody wanted
                              to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess he just
                              couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know all of
                              the most recent books are a rehash of things that were written before.

                              Ingrid
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hi Ingrid, We are having some fun here aren t we! I thought I d comment some more. ... Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many of
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
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                                Hi Ingrid,
                                We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                                more.

                                Prometheus wrote:
                                > > >Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                                Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                                of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                                Twitchell like skim!

                                Ingrid wrote:
                                > The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                                same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't
                                like him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder
                                why he was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                                seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                                was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                                blinded by his "high status"!

                                ***Yes, if Ford was so bland or egocentric or whatever the neo nay-
                                sayers claim then why did Klemp (the Mahanta) have him front and
                                center as an International representative for Eckankar!



                                > > >It was more difficult for me to leave.

                                > Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if
                                you want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a
                                decision. There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe
                                diseases, which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really
                                was "the one and only true way"! Of course this is because the
                                master himself has a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his
                                followers just copy him because they think that makes them more like
                                him (which it does, by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                                ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                the "Prophet!"


                                > But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                                don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                                diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                                more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                                in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                                things in my opinion.

                                ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased as
                                a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                                hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                                that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!



                                > > > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                                first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                                the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                                individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                                > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                                ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!



                                > > >My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                                thinking that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that
                                eventually I would have a break through in higher awareness.

                                > Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                                ***Sometimes I now look back and see how "irrational" I was! I had
                                to talk myself into thinking I was doing the right thing at times. I
                                was very stubborn even with mySelf!



                                > > >It was the "just Be" concept and those like it that always gave
                                me hope. Of course those Higher Initiations were awfully enticing
                                too! They really impressed me for quite awhile.

                                > When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was
                                nothing new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that
                                by being an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within
                                oneself, so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                                ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                                from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                                expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                                are to be more initiations!



                                > > >However, the more that I watched and listened to
                                these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                                heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                                true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                                friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                                and this gave me hope.

                                > Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people
                                out there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                                ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                                easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                                There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.



                                > > >Some of my wilder experiences were before I joined Eckankar,
                                but I have had even more "interesting" experiences since leaving
                                Eckankar!

                                > Yes, exactly!

                                ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                                without a mahanta to second guess Me!



                                > > >I had a friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I
                                sometimes envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is
                                even afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to
                                protect her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her
                                fears!

                                > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                                expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                                ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                violation of the Four Zoas!



                                > > >And, why throw all that away along with all of those years of
                                service, and initiations for the sake of truth?

                                > I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still
                                appreciate, in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the
                                difference between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all
                                are standing in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not
                                believe it! I asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would
                                have to wait for that, and that spiritual development for each of us
                                was much faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                                ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                                only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                                like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                                those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                                Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                                achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!



                                > > >Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                                Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a rountable
                                Discussion

                                > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                                Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                                sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                                that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                                ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                                this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                                their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                                If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                                countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                                been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                                and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised on
                                the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!


                                > > >I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                                need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                                finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                                Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                                > But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the
                                resas over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody
                                wanted to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess
                                he just couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know
                                all of the most recent books are a rehash of things that were
                                written before.

                                ***True, much of it was from RESA talks, meetings, and letters. Yes
                                Klemp does drag his feet and for a "prophet" he can't see the hand
                                writing on the wall! He just wasn't getting info to the chelas in an
                                organized "same page" like manner through his RESAs. The whole "Eck"
                                organization is screwed up and will just get worse as more demands
                                and controls are exerted.

                                Prometheus
                              • mishmisha9
                                Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the attitudes/beliefs of the
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 10, 2005
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                                  Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                                  several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                  attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                                  say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                                  and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                                  elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                  people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                                  them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle! Secondly, it
                                  can be quite profitable for you. Since you didn't really make a
                                  success with your engineering degree or really want to work in the
                                  family business, well, why not take money from fools. It again shows
                                  your superiority and cleaverness at conning, which really is just a
                                  sport and now has become a lifestyle! LOL!

                                  It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                                  fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                                  trust your inner guidance? Well, I suppose some people in their
                                  quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                  their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                                  people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some people
                                  are always looking to others for answers that should be found within
                                  themselves?

                                  Ingrid said:
                                  >
                                  > > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                                  > Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and
                                  I'm sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                                  > that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                                  Prometheus replied:
                                  >
                                  > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                  if this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                                  > their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                                  > If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                                  > countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                                  > been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                                  > and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised
                                  on the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                  > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                  > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                  > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!
                                  >
                                  >

                                  I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                                  would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                  sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                                  embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                                  Mish
                                • ctecvie
                                  Hello Prometheus, ... We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-)) ... I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in what you trust. And if
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                    Hello Prometheus,

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                                    > Hi Ingrid,
                                    > We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                                    > more.

                                    We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-))


                                    > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                    > traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to
                                    >go
                                    > to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                    > however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                    > the "Prophet!"

                                    I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in
                                    what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you have
                                    to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods as
                                    well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and inform
                                    ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything that comes
                                    up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent in some
                                    fields!

                                    > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased
                                    >as
                                    > a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                                    > hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                                    > that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                    Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies and
                                    the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap he
                                    uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                    Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!

                                    > > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!
                                    >
                                    > ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!

                                    And isn't that soo great! :-)

                                    > ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                                    > from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                                    > expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                                    > are to be more initiations!

                                    The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                    were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                    serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                    were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                    advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                    a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                    in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                    because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                    enough.

                                    > ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                                    > easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                                    > There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.

                                    Indeed. And the best of us were fooled and are still fooled (those
                                    who are still in Eckankar).

                                    > ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                                    > without a mahanta to second guess Me!

                                    True and well said! :-)

                                    > > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                                    > expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!
                                    >
                                    > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                    > strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do
                                    >they
                                    > see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                    > is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                    > violation of the Four Zoas!

                                    LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                    big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)

                                    > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                                    > only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                                    > like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                                    > those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                                    > Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                                    > achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                    The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization" experience!
                                    And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to have been, with
                                    all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that local magazine! But,
                                    you know, Prometheus - we women will become men in the next few
                                    lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the LEM/mahanta! :-)

                                    > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                                    > this person has tried this technique?

                                    I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about experiences
                                    of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!

                                    > So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                    > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                    > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                    > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!

                                    Yes, some people will never learn. And if I want to learn sun gazing,
                                    why follow a con man? It's perhaps enough to inform myself on how to
                                    do it, and then just do it and take perhaps follow-up sessions from
                                    time to time! That is, if I really want to try it. I'm not
                                    interested - but I have the freedom to do so, if I wish to do so -
                                    and not because somebody else tells me that "this is it"!

                                    Ingrid
                                  • ctecvie
                                    Hello Mish, I can see that you love sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...) ... That s true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be fooled so
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                      Hello Mish,

                                      I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                      <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                      > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                                      > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                      > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                                      > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                                      > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                                      > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                      > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                                      > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!

                                      That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                      fooled so easily sometimes!

                                      > Secondly, it
                                      > can be quite profitable for you.

                                      This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                      similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that he
                                      knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                      talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                      could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                      wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed him
                                      because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all are!

                                      > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                                      > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                                      > trust your inner guidance?

                                      Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be a
                                      fool ...!! :-D

                                      > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                      > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                      > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                                      > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                      >people
                                      > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                      within
                                      > themselves?

                                      I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                      finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes and
                                      see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                      enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary things
                                      because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                      enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in the
                                      morning and being grateful for the day!

                                      > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                                      > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                      > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                                      > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                                      And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                      Ingrid
                                    • mishmisha9
                                      Well, I think sun gazing might work for those few people whose brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would go to one of those sun
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                        Well, I think sun gazing might work for those "few" people whose
                                        brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would
                                        go to one of those sun gazing workshops would fall into that
                                        category! : ) So, I guess it would seem "real" to those
                                        already "blind" to reality. Yes, the brain is capable of being
                                        tricked!

                                        Mish

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                                        <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                                        > Hello Mish,
                                        >
                                        > I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                        > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                        > > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle
                                        East
                                        > > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                        > > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I
                                        would
                                        > > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part
                                        sport
                                        > > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and
                                        it
                                        > > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                        > > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter
                                        than
                                        > > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!
                                        >
                                        > That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                        > fooled so easily sometimes!
                                        >
                                        > > Secondly, it
                                        > > can be quite profitable for you.
                                        >
                                        > This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                        > similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that
                                        he
                                        > knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                        > talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                        > could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                        > wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed
                                        him
                                        > because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all
                                        are!
                                        >
                                        > > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of
                                        being
                                        > > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not
                                        just
                                        > > trust your inner guidance?
                                        >
                                        > Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be
                                        a
                                        > fool ...!! :-D
                                        >
                                        > > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                        > > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                        > > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it
                                        some
                                        > > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                        > >people
                                        > > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                        > within
                                        > > themselves?
                                        >
                                        > I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                        > finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes
                                        and
                                        > see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                        > enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary
                                        things
                                        > because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                        > enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in
                                        the
                                        > morning and being grateful for the day!
                                        >
                                        > > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And
                                        why
                                        > > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                        > > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd
                                        be
                                        > > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )
                                        >
                                        > And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                        > Ingrid
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hi Ingrid, This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum ... traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go to Mexico
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                          Hi Ingrid,
                                          This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum

                                          > > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                          traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                          to Mexico for Layatril treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                          however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                          the "Prophet!"

                                          > I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course
                                          in what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you
                                          have to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods
                                          as well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and
                                          inform ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything
                                          that comes up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent
                                          in some fields!


                                          ###True, However, the Layatril treatments were proven to be a scam
                                          to rob sick, rich and desparate Americans (mostly) of their money.
                                          One could say that it did give some people hope, but it also
                                          prevented many from receiving needed traditional treatment. Rod
                                          Stewart had lytics in song mentioning Latatril but I'm not sure if
                                          it was "Better off Dead" or "Foolish Behavior?"



                                          > > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have
                                          increased as a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear
                                          induced mass hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if"
                                          thinking that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                          > Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies
                                          and the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap
                                          he uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                          Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!



                                          ###Yes, and the Youths in Eck are being brainwashed with this same
                                          crap! What will happen to them, I wonder, when they come out of the
                                          fog and realize the truth when seeing the lies?



                                          > > ***Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes from the stress
                                          of being in a leadership position and the expectations of the
                                          hierarchy! More and more is expected if there are to be more
                                          initiations!

                                          > The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                          were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                          serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                          were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                          advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                          a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                          in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                          because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                          enough.


                                          ### Yes, some H.I.s don't want to accept the truth about the
                                          computer generated pink slips for initiation either! It takes away
                                          from the magic and mystical imaginings and masks the deception of
                                          the fraud. Yes, I also know what you mean by people acting
                                          too "sweet." I knew a RESA who would give Eckists a hug and then
                                          say, "I love you!" This was her "thing" for awhile, and it seemed
                                          quite inappropriate and over the top! It caught people off guard and
                                          was something only a "RESA" could get away with. No one else could
                                          or would do this, because then those special words would
                                          (eventually) have no meaning or value if said so casually and
                                          recklessly.



                                          > > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                          strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                          see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                          is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                          violation of the Four Zoas!

                                          > LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                          big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)


                                          ### Yes, funny how the truth can become negative when it is not
                                          their truth, or when they (Eckists) are not ready to hear it!



                                          > > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks
                                          like only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way
                                          this is like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals
                                          would be those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves
                                          like the Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned
                                          with achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                          > The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization"
                                          experience! And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to
                                          have been, with all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that
                                          local magazine! But, you know, Prometheus - we women will become men
                                          in the next few lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the
                                          LEM/mahanta! :-)


                                          ### Yes, that's the Catch-22 of the scam! I guess that one or two
                                          Catholic women (living today) can become the Pope in their next or
                                          some other futuristic incarnation! What are the odds?



                                          > > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                          if this person has tried this technique? <Sun Gazing>

                                          > I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about
                                          experiences of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!


                                          ### Right, I doubt if this person has done any Sun Gazing on her
                                          own, but she is of that mind set to try anything and everything
                                          others have to offer. Too bad that she doesn't have more Self-
                                          confidence in her own Self by now.

                                          Prometheus
                                        • mishmisha9
                                          Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar sites
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Mar 31 2:14 AM
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                                            Hi, Everyone!

                                            This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                            the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                            sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                            mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                            you enjoy!

                                            *********************************
                                            It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                            truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                            Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                            discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                            have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                            experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                            The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                            others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                            this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                            you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                            feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                            truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                            will continue.

                                            For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                            for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                            you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                            have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                            can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                            because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                            in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                            working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                            grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                            matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                            making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                            to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                            not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                            can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                            help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                            very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                            I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                            which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                            about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                            Mish

                                            >
                                            > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                            > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                            about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                            least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                            guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                            freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                            have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                            mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                            Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                            back to a 1st like Graham!
                                            >
                                          • eyesopen444
                                            Mishmisha9 wrote: Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Mar 31 11:42 AM
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                                              Mishmisha9 wrote:

                                              Hi, Everyone!

                                              This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                              the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                              sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                              mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                              you enjoy!

                                              *********************************
                                              It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                              truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                              Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                              discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                              have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                              experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                              The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                              others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                              this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                              you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                              feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                              truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                              will continue.

                                              For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                              for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                              you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                              have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                              can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                              because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                              in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                              working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                              grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                              matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                              making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                              to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                              not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                              can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                              help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                              very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                              I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                              which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                              about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                              Mish

                                              >
                                              > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                              > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                              about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                              least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                              guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                              freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                              have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                              mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                              Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                              back to a 1st like Graham!
                                              >
                                              ######################################################################

                                              ME:

                                              Hi Everyone!

                                              I'm pleased to express my reasons for reading/posting on ESA and ET.
                                              First of all, I'm glad they exist! In all the years I spent reading
                                              ekult books and discourses and those spiritual exercises - it seemed
                                              to me that I got as far as I was ever going to get in ekult within the
                                              first five years or so. I had too many other things going on in my
                                              life to pursue another path, so I trusted ekult and repressed my
                                              questions and doubts and hoped for the best. The thing about Spirit
                                              (IMHO) is that It will not be content to remain on a dead-end path. It
                                              is our spiritual nature to desire continued growth and more knowledge.
                                              My unanswered questions and unease with ekult kept returning.

                                              I contacted my area HI and "joined in" at a few worship services,
                                              which turned out to be pretty bizarre. I met long time members, some
                                              expressed self-doubt and couldn't understand why they had not achieved
                                              a higher initiation level (this is such an effective control
                                              technique, I'm sorry to say), others seemed almost manic with their
                                              efforts to appear happy and sooo full of Spirit. All this did was
                                              creep me out and I KNEW that I wasn't going to get any answers from
                                              these people.

                                              The next logical step in my mind was to check out the internet.<SMILE>
                                              I quickly found these "anti-eck" sites and spent several weekends
                                              exploring every link and site that I could find. When I first learned
                                              the truth, I was shocked and hurt but also fascinated. I'll admit, I
                                              was also angry! But, because of these sites, I felt the comfort of not
                                              being alone, I enjoyed the humor shared and was able to forgive myself
                                              for being taken in by such a scam.

                                              I thank Prometheus, Sharon, Liz, Mish, Alf and all of the other great
                                              posters on these sites. HUGS to you all! I don't think that I would
                                              have worked through this as quickly or as well without your help.
                                              THANK YOU!!

                                              I didn't join out of anger, revenge or hatred. Quite the opposite.
                                              I joined because I want to help those who will follow and are now
                                              where we all once were.

                                              I don't consider these "anti-eck" sites but rather as a source of
                                              TRUTH. These sites would not be needed if ekult was not a sham and HK
                                              would tell the truth. People are being hurt and balance is needed.

                                              Thanks for listening.

                                              Have Fun!

                                              Kaye
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