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Re: Klemp Distorts ......

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Freefrom! Sure you may post my message on your site. I do venture over there once in a while myself, so I guess I am a lurker! : ) I agree it is good to
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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      Hi, Freefrom!

      Sure you may post my message on your site. I do venture over there
      once in a while myself, so I guess I am a lurker! : ) I agree it is
      good to have several "anti eckancrap groups around!" Glad you
      participate here too!

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
      <eckchains@y...> wrote:
      > Hi Mish,
      >
      > I couldn't have said it better myself! Really good post. Would you
      > mind if I reposted it in my Yahoo group, "X-Eckankar: The chains of
      > Eck". This group is much more active than mine. I have a lot of
      > lerkers I think, but I believe it is important to have several anti
      > eckancrap groups around, even if they have a slightly different
      focus
      > or slant. Thanks for the post, very well put. (Prometheus too)
      >
      > Freefrom
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
      > > It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
      > > truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
      > > Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of
      these
      > > discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
      > > have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
      > > experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its
      spell.
      > > The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
      > > others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
      > > this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really
      draws
      > > you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
      > > feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out,
      the
      > > truth will just be buried once more and the
      delusion/lies/deceptions
      > > will continue.
      > >
      > > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping
      stone
      > > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense.
      Sure,
      > > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that
      would
      > > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest
      and
      > > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
      > > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we
      have
      > > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge
      Spirit
      > > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times,
      we
      > > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
      > > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in
      Eckankar by
      > > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and
      lessons
      > > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
      > > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and
      you
      > > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will
      truly
      > > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus,
      it is
      > > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
      > >
      > > I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express
      that
      > > which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the
      truth
      > > about Eckankar! Thanks!
      > >
      > > Mish
      > >
      > >
      > > > Prometheus
      > > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
      about
      > > > being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
      least
      > > we
      > > > are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the guilt
      of
      > > > being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
      > > freedom
      > > > without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
      have
      > > to
      > > > watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
      > > mentioned
      > > > on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
      Because
      > > you
      > > > can lose that next initiation or position or even be put back
      to a
      > > > 1st like Graham!
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Mish, Yes, one s own spiritual learning and understanding transcends Eckankar! Sometimes I think that Eckankar helped me to have a better understanding of
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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        Hi Mish,

        Yes, one's own spiritual learning and understanding transcends
        Eckankar! Sometimes I think that Eckankar helped me to have a better
        understanding of other Eastern spiritual knowledge, but I also
        realize that Twitchell's creation (Eckankar) is an embellished and
        fictional scam with a distorted but Westernized version of Sant Mat,
        Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Surat Shabd Yoga along with a some
        others thrown in for good measure. The real disservice comes not
        only with the continued lies from Klemp, but with the promotion that
        one needs a Living Master to depend upon while in a physical body
        and an "Inner" Master even longer! A true spiritual teacher should
        have a physical one-to-one relationship with the student and that
        the student will (in this lifetime) become the Master! If one cannot
        become/realize their own Mastership after "X" number of years...
        then that path or direction is a useless distraction and one needs
        to redirect (and deprogram) their life while there is still time!

        Prometheus


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
        <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

        > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
        for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
        you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
        have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
        can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
        because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
        in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
        working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
        grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
        matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
        making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
        to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
        not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
        can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
        help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
        very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
      • christel_heine2003
        that ... cannot ... o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher. I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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          that
          > one needs a Living Master to depend upon while in a physical body
          > and an "Inner" Master even longer! A true spiritual teacher should
          > have a physical one-to-one relationship with the student and that
          > the student will (in this lifetime) become the Master! If one
          cannot
          > become/realize their own Mastership after "X" number of years...
          > then that path or direction is a useless distraction and one needs
          > to redirect (and deprogram) their life while there is still time!

          o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.
          I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
          love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the eckist's,
          how to see those, who left (in the W.N). I noticed, that I couldn't
          accept an inner master, but surely an outer, in his writing f.e.
          oh no, I also become the answer: in religions, there is the heart,
          but not the mind decisive. in my case, the mind would mine, to stay
          in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang with very lovely persons - but, in my
          heart, no, it couldn't be, because, the mahanta was only an outer
          master, if at all, for me.
          but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
          devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all what
          I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
          and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing to
          my open words, to awake hearing, understanding. I didn't except:
          accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues together.
          what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists are not
          able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other opinions, where
          ever they come from. they only answers in eck-sentences. they are not
          able, to try coming in the thougts of others, isn't so?
          oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told my leaving behind
          eckankar. the same we could learn in the ddr, there, these, who
          wasn't able to agree, those are no-man!
          my experience, is it compatible to others???
          sorry, my english - but I hope, perhabs, you could understand, what
          I'm meaning.
          greetings christel

          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping
          stone
          > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
          > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
          > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest
          and
          > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
          > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we
          have
          > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
          > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
          > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
          > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar
          by
          > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and
          lessons
          > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
          > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and
          you
          > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
          > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it
          is
          > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
        • Freefrom
          Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that s OK. Figured it couldn t hurt, although I did inherit the group and there are still some
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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            Thanks,

            I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
            OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
            there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
            rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full agreement
            with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some kind of
            captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and if you
            would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

            Freefrom

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
            > Hi, Freefrom!
            >
            > Sure you may post my message on your site. I do venture over there
            > once in a while myself, so I guess I am a lurker! : ) I agree it is
            > good to have several "anti eckancrap groups around!" Glad you
            > participate here too!
            >
            > Mish
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
            > <eckchains@y...> wrote:
            > > Hi Mish,
            > >
            > > I couldn't have said it better myself! Really good post. Would you
            > > mind if I reposted it in my Yahoo group, "X-Eckankar: The chains of
            > > Eck". This group is much more active than mine. I have a lot of
            > > lerkers I think, but I believe it is important to have several anti
            > > eckancrap groups around, even if they have a slightly different
            > focus
            > > or slant. Thanks for the post, very well put. (Prometheus too)
            > >
            > > Freefrom
            > >
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            > > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
            > > > It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
            > > > truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
            > > > Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of
            > these
            > > > discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
            > > > have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
            > > > experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its
            > spell.
            > > > The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
            > > > others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
            > > > this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really
            > draws
            > > > you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
            > > > feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out,
            > the
            > > > truth will just be buried once more and the
            > delusion/lies/deceptions
            > > > will continue.
            > > >
            > > > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping
            > stone
            > > > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense.
            > Sure,
            > > > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that
            > would
            > > > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest
            > and
            > > > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
            > > > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we
            > have
            > > > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge
            > Spirit
            > > > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times,
            > we
            > > > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
            > > > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in
            > Eckankar by
            > > > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and
            > lessons
            > > > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
            > > > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and
            > you
            > > > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will
            > truly
            > > > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus,
            > it is
            > > > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
            > > >
            > > > I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express
            > that
            > > > which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the
            > truth
            > > > about Eckankar! Thanks!
            > > >
            > > > Mish
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > Prometheus
            > > > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
            > about
            > > > > being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
            > least
            > > > we
            > > > > are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the guilt
            > of
            > > > > being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
            > > > freedom
            > > > > without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
            > have
            > > > to
            > > > > watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
            > > > mentioned
            > > > > on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
            > Because
            > > > you
            > > > > can lose that next initiation or position or even be put back
            > to a
            > > > > 1st like Graham!
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Christel, Thanks for the post. I do pretty much understand what you are saying. ... EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, christel_heine2003
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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              Hi Christel,
              Thanks for the post. I do pretty much understand what you are saying.

              --- In
              EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "christel_heine2003"
              <Christel-Heine@t...> wrote:

              Prometheus: In Eckankar it seems that one needs a Living Master to
              depend upon while in a physical body and an "Inner" Master even
              longer! A true spiritual teacher should have a physical one-to-one
              relationship with the student and that the student will (in this
              lifetime) become the Master! If one cannot become/realize their own
              Mastership after "X" number of years... then that path or direction
              is a useless distraction and one needs to redirect (and deprogram)
              their life while there is still time!



              > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.
              I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
              love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the eckist's,
              how to see those, who left (in the W.N).

              ***I'm not sure what the W.N. is that you mentioned? Yes, there can
              be many "teachers" in our lives but the one true Master is us! And
              yes HK does not show much love to those Eckists who left and to
              those who have insights and inner experiences, or dreams that
              contradict the Eck dogma and his authority.

              >I noticed, that I couldn't accept an inner master, but surely an
              outer, in his writing f.e. oh no, I also become the answer: in
              religions, there is the heart, but not the mind decisive. in my
              case, the mind would mine, to stay in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang
              with very lovely persons - but, in my heart, no, it couldn't be,
              because, the mahanta was only an outer master, if at all, for me.
              but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
              devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all what
              I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
              and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
              to my open words, to awake hearing, understanding.

              ***Some Eckists have trouble accepting the inner master and others
              have trouble accepting the outer master. An Eckist has to perform a
              really good self-brainwashing to believe both! Yes, one must use
              both the mind and the heart to determine truth. Yes, many H.I.s do
              not truly listen, just like Klemp, and many are ESAs who are
              supposed to be listeners! But, that's just one more distortion of
              many. "Do as I say not as I do" seems to be the motto of Klemp and
              company.

              >I didn't except: accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues
              together. what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists
              are not able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other
              opinions, where ever they come from. they only answers in eck-
              sentences. they are not able, to try coming in the thougts of
              others, isn't so? oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told
              my leaving behind eckankar. the same we could learn in the ddr,
              there, these, who wasn't able to agree, those are no-man! my
              experience, is it compatible to others??? sorry, my english - but I
              hope, perhabs, you could understand, what I'm meaning.
              > greetings christel

              ***Yes, Eckists do not want to hear other opinions, answer
              questions, or listen in general! They think and assume that
              their "truth" is the highest and most valuable. To believe as they
              do they need to close their minds to other possibilities or there
              would be too many questions to answer and doubt would creep in.
              Therefore, only the discussion of Eck dogma (using Eck jargon) is
              acceptable in most conservations. Perhaps it is best for some people
              (it would seem) to live in ignorance and delusion if that is what
              makes them happy. And, isn't happiness or contentment the true
              overall goal of humanity! Anyway, it is too bad that Eckists think
              that they are the only ones who can have valid spiritual
              experiences. To discount the non-Eck experiences of others shows not
              only their own inexperience, but also their small minds and hearts!

              Prometheus
            • ctecvie
              Hello Christel, ... It s true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have one! It s our decision. ... little ... eckist s, ... couldn t ...
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                Hello Christel,


                > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.

                It's true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have
                one! It's our decision.


                > I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no
                little
                > love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the
                eckist's,
                > how to see those, who left (in the W.N). I noticed, that I
                couldn't
                > accept an inner master, but surely an outer, in his writing f.e.
                > oh no, I also become the answer: in religions, there is the
                heart,
                > but not the mind decisive.

                Such a typical answer in Eckankar - if you question writings, such
                as the last wisdom notes in your case, then the answer is pretty
                often "you are in the mind, you need to go within to find the answer
                for you". 'Mind' has become a real 'no-no' word in Eckankar.

                > in my case, the mind would mine, to stay
                > in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang with very lovely persons - but, in
                my
                > heart, no, it couldn't be, because, the mahanta was only an outer
                > master, if at all, for me.

                Well, it's pretty obvious that your heart is right here. It's true
                that sometimes it's hard to give up the group, the people we have
                come to like over the years. But that's, as you point out (I believe
                I have understood correctly), only the mind. The heart says
                something entirely different!


                > but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
                > devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all
                what
                > I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
                > and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
                to
                > my open words, to awake hearing, understanding. I didn't except:
                > accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues together.

                Yes, it's difficult for them to accept that there's another "truth"
                out there than theirs. So, it's often easier to devaluate the
                messenger (you in that case) than to admit that something's not
                quite right with the teachings and, especially, with the master.
                Discussion is not possible because this would be of the kal.


                > what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists are not
                > able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other opinions,
                where
                > ever they come from. they only answers in eck-sentences. they are
                not
                > able, to try coming in the thougts of others, isn't so?
                > oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told my leaving
                behind
                > eckankar.

                Yes, that's a pity indeed. I think all we can do with those who
                can't accept us as we are - accept them as they are. I know that
                this is easier said than done. I have learned quite a lot about this
                during the last year. Soon, it will be a year that I left! Hooray! :-
                ))

                > the same we could learn in the ddr, there, these, who
                > wasn't able to agree, those are no-man!

                I have found out that it's pretty much the same mechanism in
                oppressing countries like the German Democratic Republic - you can't
                speak your mind, and if you do, this has serious consequences.
                Fortunately, Eckankar isn't quite like that - but you get devaluated
                for sure, and opinions of ex-members or members with serious doubts
                don't count at all.

                > my experience, is it compatible to others???

                Oh, yes!!! For sure!! I have seen pretty much the same thing, and I
                didn't really dare to ask too many questions. Fortunately, I could
                discuss those issues with my husband, so I wasn't all alone.


                > sorry, my english - but I hope, perhabs, you could understand,
                what
                > I'm meaning.

                I think you made yourself quite clear! If there's something you feel
                I didn't understand correctly, just tell me. I'm happy you posted!

                Ingrid
              • ctecvie
                Hello Freefrom, Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it s good to have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                  Hello Freefrom,

                  Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it's good to
                  have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
                  slant. I visit your group from time to time as well - so I'm a lurker,
                  too!


                  Ingrid
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Freefrom, Yes, it is nice being free from the chains of Eck. I saw that Mish put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                    Hi Freefrom,

                    Yes, it is nice being "free from the chains of Eck." I saw that Mish
                    put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-chains-of-Eck. It is
                    good to have another anti-Eckankar site in order to have more forums
                    for discussion, and to share information and experiences.

                    Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
                    Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
                    prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
                    and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
                    Eckists.

                    Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
                    stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
                    telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.
                    It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
                    accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
                    Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
                    experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
                    Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
                    is misidentified.

                    On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                    cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                    erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                    these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                    Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                    and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                    deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                    welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                    look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                    there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                    egos or both it would seem!

                    Thanks for posting the link to this site (ESA) onto your site of X-
                    Eckankar.

                    Prometheus


                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                    <eckchains@y...> wrote:

                    > Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
                    OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
                    there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
                    rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full
                    agreement with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some
                    kind of captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and
                    if you would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

                    > Freefrom
                  • Freefrom
                    Prometheus wrote... On another note... I m amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                      Prometheus wrote...

                      On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                      cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                      erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                      these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                      Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                      and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                      deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                      welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                      look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                      there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                      egos or both it would seem!

                      Freefrom:
                      *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                      at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                      before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                      path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do with
                      family members and "friends" still being involved with eckankrap. It
                      is a little bit like an addiction and that magical thinking from
                      childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
                      to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
                      is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

                      I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is an
                      "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much what
                      the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
                      expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
                      exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
                      adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
                      as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
                      another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending or
                      to be forced.*

                      Good Fortune

                      FreeFrom
                    • ctecvie
                      ... myself ... This happens to me as well. I think it s not so much about getting completely rid of this pattern (even if it s great when that happens) but to
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom" >

                        > *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find
                        myself
                        > at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                        > before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                        > path away from my own common sense.

                        This happens to me as well. I think it's not so much about getting
                        completely rid of this pattern (even if it's great when that happens)
                        but to be alert and notice when we are starting to go down that path
                        again as you say.

                        > Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
                        > to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
                        > is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

                        Exactly.

                        > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is
                        > an
                        > "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much
                        >what
                        > the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
                        > expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
                        > exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
                        > adaptable.

                        Well said! I have noticed that since being out of Eckankar, I have
                        become more flexible in my thinking as well. Except, of course, that
                        I have come to have a rather rigid opinion of the teaching itself! :-
                        ) But as far as the people go, those who are still with Eckankar, I
                        have come to a better understanding as well. I can see them as
                        seekers who need the experience - just as I needed the experience as
                        well, at the time. Of course if discussions start, they still can get
                        fairly heated! :-)

                        > Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
                        > as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
                        > another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending
                        > or
                        > to be forced.

                        Truth doesn't need a belief system. The more we become aware that
                        Eckankar is just another belief system the better and lighter it
                        gets, in my experience.

                        Ingrid
                      • ctecvie
                        Hello Prometheus, ... I have made some great experiences in this field during the last year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                          Hello Prometheus,

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                          > Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
                          > Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
                          > prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
                          > and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
                          > Eckists.

                          I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                          year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                          presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                          anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                          but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                          take that much better than before and just let them be where they are.

                          And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and after
                          discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without blinking an
                          eye. Those were the great experiences.

                          > Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
                          > stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
                          > telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.

                          It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                          doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.


                          > It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
                          > accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
                          > Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
                          > experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
                          > Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
                          > is misidentified.

                          Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once we
                          start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                          amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at the
                          beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I have
                          always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This was so
                          before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I wake up
                          in the morning and know what needs to be done and which decision I
                          need to take.

                          > On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and
                          >other
                          > cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                          > erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                          > these people are even "former" Eckists!

                          I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists are
                          that way - it's in the teachings.

                          > You'd think that being in
                          > Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                          > and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                          > deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                          > welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing!

                          Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just don't
                          question and accept everything an authority tells you! The longer you
                          were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its damage, and so
                          it's not a real surprise for me that some of those who left don't
                          have any discriminations and lack a lot of common sense! Quite
                          natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                          Ingrid
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Freefrom, I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike. Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and individual
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                            Hi Freefrom,

                            I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike.
                            Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and
                            individual experiences as we sort it all out for deeper insights
                            into the big WHY?

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                            <eckchains@y...> wrote:
                            > Prometheus wrote...
                            On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                            cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                            erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                            these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                            Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                            and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                            deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                            welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                            look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                            there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                            egos or both it would seem!

                            > Freefrom:
                            I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                            at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                            before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                            path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do
                            with family members and "friends" still being involved with
                            eckankrap. It is a little bit like an addiction and that magical
                            thinking from childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that
                            there is some truth to spirituality and psychic stuff that does
                            happen, IMO. The problem is when you attribute it all to One org
                            like eeck! (g)

                            ***Yes, it is only natural that one replaces one habit with another
                            or one religion with another. There is a void that needs to be
                            filled. However, with time, Soul fills that void with a greater
                            knowledge of Its own idenity and purpose (happiness/contentment?).
                            One needs to have time to get to know OneSelf when a relationship
                            has ended. There needs to be time for healing and re-evaluation and
                            contemplation... one needs to "chill" for awhile. New and greater
                            experiences await those who are free of the dogma and prejudical
                            beliefs that were mapped out and programed into us for those self-
                            fulling expectations. And, yes there is some truth to the spiritual
                            and psychic stuff that we and others experience, but only some of it
                            is Truth for the individual while only some of it is Truth for us
                            all! No one path or religion has Truth! Actually, if one would take
                            everything written by everyone they would still not find Truth! This
                            may sound like a given, but look at how many people hang onto the
                            words of those they see as "experts" or "Masters!"

                            > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God
                            is an "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so
                            much what the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me
                            that as ego expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not
                            disappear exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter
                            and adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma,
                            such as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is
                            just another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need
                            defending or to be forced.*

                            ***Yes, "God" (IMO) IS! Therefore, how can a total awareness of all
                            that IS lower that awareness to belief and especially to limited or
                            inaccurate beliefs? I'm certain, however, that "God" understands our
                            little escapades (but we don't!) since it all eventually leads to an
                            awareness of the innate cause for why we search for happiness. It is
                            a longing (Soul has) to return to the absolute reality of Being
                            (ISNESS)! Religions, cults and other scams are distractions that
                            pacify and take (trap) our minds (and egos) into "safe" and "secure"
                            little boxes. The (a) reality is that life is more fragile than we
                            can handle, and thus the need for the ego to protect with
                            distractions and delusions!

                            Prometheus
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hi Ingrid, I thought I d make a few more comments to what you have replied. ... year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented them.
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                              Hi Ingrid,

                              I thought I'd make a few more comments to what you have replied.

                              Ingrid wrote:
                              > I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                              year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                              presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                              anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                              but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                              take that much better than before and just let them be where they
                              are.

                              ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                              Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                              of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                              Twitchell like skim! They were too afraid to do a slow read and
                              contemplate on the information. This is what also makes them angry.
                              They are afraid that former Eckists are right! None of them want to
                              return to square one! Eckists are too comfortable in their delusions
                              and want to remain in their own private little Sound Proof Dark
                              Room. As above (with Klemp) so below (with the rank and file)!


                              > And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and
                              after discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without
                              blinking an eye. Those were the great experiences.


                              ***It was more difficult for me to leave. At first, I didn't want to
                              believe what was in front of me, but I really had no choice if I
                              wanted to remain true to myself! That has always been an important
                              factor in being a truth seeker... and truth is so very elusive!
                              However, lucky for me that I have usually recognized an inner
                              guidance when It has presented Itself to me when making crucial
                              decisions. Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                              first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                              the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                              individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!


                              > It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                              doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.

                              ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by thinking
                              that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I would
                              have a break through in higher awareness. It was the "just Be"
                              concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                              Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                              me for quite awhile. However, the more that I watched and listened
                              to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                              heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                              true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                              friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                              and this gave me hope. But, it also pointed out that the initiations
                              were not earned though higher consciousness. And, acting "as if" you
                              are what you imagine yourself to be is a key step (delusion) to
                              becoming a loyal chela, and with time as a paid and always current
                              member... to those higher initiations. <LOL>


                              > Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once
                              we start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                              amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at
                              the beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I
                              have always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This
                              was so before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I
                              wake up in the morning and know what needs to be done and which
                              decision I need to take.

                              ***I usually had the spectacular "inner" experiences, but I did also
                              have the ones of "knowingness" too! Some of my wilder experiences
                              were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                              more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar! I had a
                              friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                              envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                              afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                              her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                              > I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists
                              are that way - it's in the teachings.

                              ***Eckists are members of a private club! They feel privileged
                              (vain) that they have all of that loving guidance and protection and
                              that they are so advanced spiritually! <so sad> Once an Eckist buys
                              into this crap for 25-35 years one doesn't want to know the truth!
                              The truth about Eckankar is a hinderance for obtaining those higher
                              initiations, local and state positions, and speaking engagements at
                              regional and major seminars! This is because some Eckists just like
                              being the center of attention! And, why throw all that away along
                              with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                              truth? I was going to mention the donations of money, but much of
                              that was tax deductible anyway!

                              > Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just
                              don't question and accept everything an authority tells you! The
                              longer you were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its
                              damage, and so it's not a real surprise for me that some of those
                              who left don't have any discriminations and lack a lot of common
                              sense! Quite natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                              ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                              Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a Rountable
                              Discussion, and was surprised that she wasn't asked to explain how
                              that fit in with the Eckankar teachings. I wouldn't, as an ESA, have
                              let that information go by so passively. So, as you can see, I was a
                              good soldier who followed guidelines and was brain-washed to know
                              the Mahanta's mission. But, it was tough being in the field of
                              action. I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                              need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                              finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                              Klump 20 years to write the first complete book! The even funnier
                              thing is that many Eckists are both stubborn and individualistic,
                              and don't follow or believe in guidelines!

                              Prometheus
                            • ctecvie
                              Hello Prometheus, ... The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the same: He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn t like
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
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                                Hello Prometheus,

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                                > ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                                > Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                                > of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                                > Twitchell like skim!

                                The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                                same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't like
                                him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder why he
                                was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                                seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                                was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                                blinded by his "high status"!


                                > ***It was more difficult for me to leave.

                                Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if you
                                want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a decision.
                                There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe diseases,
                                which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really was "the one
                                and only true way"! Of course this is because the master himself has
                                a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his followers just copy
                                him because they think that makes them more like him (which it does,
                                by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                                But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                                don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                                diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                                more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                                in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                                things in my opinion.

                                > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                                > first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                                > the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                                > individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                                We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                                > ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                                >thinking
                                > that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I
                                >would
                                > have a break through in higher awareness.

                                Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                                > It was the "just Be"
                                > concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                                > Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                                > me for quite awhile.

                                When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was nothing
                                new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that by being
                                an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within oneself,
                                so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                                > However, the more that I watched and listened
                                > to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                                > heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                                > true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                                > friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                                > and this gave me hope.

                                Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people out
                                there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                                > Some of my wilder experiences
                                > were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                                > more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar!

                                Yes, exactly!

                                > I had a
                                > friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                                > envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                                > afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                                > her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                                That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to expand
                                it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                                > And, why throw all that away along
                                > with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                                > truth?

                                I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still appreciate,
                                in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the difference
                                between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all are standing
                                in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not believe it! I
                                asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would have to wait
                                for that, and that spiritual development for each of us was much
                                faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                                > ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                                > Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a
                                >rountable
                                > Discussion

                                The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                                Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                                sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                                that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                                > I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                                > need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                                > finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                                > Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                                But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the resas
                                over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody wanted
                                to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess he just
                                couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know all of
                                the most recent books are a rehash of things that were written before.

                                Ingrid
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hi Ingrid, We are having some fun here aren t we! I thought I d comment some more. ... Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many of
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
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                                  Hi Ingrid,
                                  We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                                  more.

                                  Prometheus wrote:
                                  > > >Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                                  Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                                  of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                                  Twitchell like skim!

                                  Ingrid wrote:
                                  > The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                                  same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't
                                  like him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder
                                  why he was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                                  seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                                  was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                                  blinded by his "high status"!

                                  ***Yes, if Ford was so bland or egocentric or whatever the neo nay-
                                  sayers claim then why did Klemp (the Mahanta) have him front and
                                  center as an International representative for Eckankar!



                                  > > >It was more difficult for me to leave.

                                  > Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if
                                  you want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a
                                  decision. There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe
                                  diseases, which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really
                                  was "the one and only true way"! Of course this is because the
                                  master himself has a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his
                                  followers just copy him because they think that makes them more like
                                  him (which it does, by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                                  ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                  traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                  to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                  however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                  the "Prophet!"


                                  > But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                                  don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                                  diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                                  more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                                  in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                                  things in my opinion.

                                  ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased as
                                  a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                                  hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                                  that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!



                                  > > > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                                  first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                                  the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                                  individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                                  > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                                  ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!



                                  > > >My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                                  thinking that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that
                                  eventually I would have a break through in higher awareness.

                                  > Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                                  ***Sometimes I now look back and see how "irrational" I was! I had
                                  to talk myself into thinking I was doing the right thing at times. I
                                  was very stubborn even with mySelf!



                                  > > >It was the "just Be" concept and those like it that always gave
                                  me hope. Of course those Higher Initiations were awfully enticing
                                  too! They really impressed me for quite awhile.

                                  > When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was
                                  nothing new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that
                                  by being an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within
                                  oneself, so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                                  ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                                  from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                                  expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                                  are to be more initiations!



                                  > > >However, the more that I watched and listened to
                                  these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                                  heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                                  true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                                  friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                                  and this gave me hope.

                                  > Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people
                                  out there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                                  ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                                  easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                                  There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.



                                  > > >Some of my wilder experiences were before I joined Eckankar,
                                  but I have had even more "interesting" experiences since leaving
                                  Eckankar!

                                  > Yes, exactly!

                                  ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                                  without a mahanta to second guess Me!



                                  > > >I had a friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I
                                  sometimes envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is
                                  even afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to
                                  protect her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her
                                  fears!

                                  > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                                  expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                                  ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                  strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                  see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                  is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                  violation of the Four Zoas!



                                  > > >And, why throw all that away along with all of those years of
                                  service, and initiations for the sake of truth?

                                  > I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still
                                  appreciate, in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the
                                  difference between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all
                                  are standing in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not
                                  believe it! I asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would
                                  have to wait for that, and that spiritual development for each of us
                                  was much faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                                  ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                                  only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                                  like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                                  those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                                  Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                                  achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!



                                  > > >Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                                  Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a rountable
                                  Discussion

                                  > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                                  Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                                  sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                                  that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                                  ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                                  this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                                  their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                                  If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                                  countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                                  been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                                  and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised on
                                  the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                  never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                  if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                  Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!


                                  > > >I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                                  need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                                  finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                                  Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                                  > But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the
                                  resas over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody
                                  wanted to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess
                                  he just couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know
                                  all of the most recent books are a rehash of things that were
                                  written before.

                                  ***True, much of it was from RESA talks, meetings, and letters. Yes
                                  Klemp does drag his feet and for a "prophet" he can't see the hand
                                  writing on the wall! He just wasn't getting info to the chelas in an
                                  organized "same page" like manner through his RESAs. The whole "Eck"
                                  organization is screwed up and will just get worse as more demands
                                  and controls are exerted.

                                  Prometheus
                                • mishmisha9
                                  Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the attitudes/beliefs of the
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 10, 2005
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                                    Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                                    several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                    attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                                    say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                                    and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                                    elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                    people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                                    them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle! Secondly, it
                                    can be quite profitable for you. Since you didn't really make a
                                    success with your engineering degree or really want to work in the
                                    family business, well, why not take money from fools. It again shows
                                    your superiority and cleaverness at conning, which really is just a
                                    sport and now has become a lifestyle! LOL!

                                    It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                                    fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                                    trust your inner guidance? Well, I suppose some people in their
                                    quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                    their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                                    people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some people
                                    are always looking to others for answers that should be found within
                                    themselves?

                                    Ingrid said:
                                    >
                                    > > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                                    > Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and
                                    I'm sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                                    > that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                                    Prometheus replied:
                                    >
                                    > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                    if this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                                    > their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                                    > If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                                    > countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                                    > been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                                    > and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised
                                    on the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                    > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                    > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                    > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!
                                    >
                                    >

                                    I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                                    would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                    sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                                    embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                                    Mish
                                  • ctecvie
                                    Hello Prometheus, ... We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-)) ... I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in what you trust. And if
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                      Hello Prometheus,

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                      <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                                      > Hi Ingrid,
                                      > We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                                      > more.

                                      We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-))


                                      > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                      > traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to
                                      >go
                                      > to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                      > however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                      > the "Prophet!"

                                      I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in
                                      what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you have
                                      to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods as
                                      well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and inform
                                      ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything that comes
                                      up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent in some
                                      fields!

                                      > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased
                                      >as
                                      > a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                                      > hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                                      > that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                      Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies and
                                      the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap he
                                      uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                      Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!

                                      > > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!
                                      >
                                      > ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!

                                      And isn't that soo great! :-)

                                      > ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                                      > from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                                      > expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                                      > are to be more initiations!

                                      The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                      were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                      serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                      were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                      advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                      a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                      in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                      because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                      enough.

                                      > ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                                      > easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                                      > There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.

                                      Indeed. And the best of us were fooled and are still fooled (those
                                      who are still in Eckankar).

                                      > ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                                      > without a mahanta to second guess Me!

                                      True and well said! :-)

                                      > > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                                      > expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!
                                      >
                                      > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                      > strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do
                                      >they
                                      > see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                      > is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                      > violation of the Four Zoas!

                                      LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                      big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)

                                      > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                                      > only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                                      > like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                                      > those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                                      > Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                                      > achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                      The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization" experience!
                                      And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to have been, with
                                      all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that local magazine! But,
                                      you know, Prometheus - we women will become men in the next few
                                      lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the LEM/mahanta! :-)

                                      > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                                      > this person has tried this technique?

                                      I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about experiences
                                      of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!

                                      > So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                      > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                      > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                      > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!

                                      Yes, some people will never learn. And if I want to learn sun gazing,
                                      why follow a con man? It's perhaps enough to inform myself on how to
                                      do it, and then just do it and take perhaps follow-up sessions from
                                      time to time! That is, if I really want to try it. I'm not
                                      interested - but I have the freedom to do so, if I wish to do so -
                                      and not because somebody else tells me that "this is it"!

                                      Ingrid
                                    • ctecvie
                                      Hello Mish, I can see that you love sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...) ... That s true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be fooled so
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                        Hello Mish,

                                        I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                        <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                        > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                                        > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                        > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                                        > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                                        > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                                        > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                        > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                                        > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!

                                        That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                        fooled so easily sometimes!

                                        > Secondly, it
                                        > can be quite profitable for you.

                                        This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                        similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that he
                                        knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                        talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                        could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                        wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed him
                                        because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all are!

                                        > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                                        > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                                        > trust your inner guidance?

                                        Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be a
                                        fool ...!! :-D

                                        > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                        > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                        > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                                        > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                        >people
                                        > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                        within
                                        > themselves?

                                        I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                        finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes and
                                        see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                        enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary things
                                        because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                        enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in the
                                        morning and being grateful for the day!

                                        > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                                        > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                        > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                                        > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                                        And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                        Ingrid
                                      • mishmisha9
                                        Well, I think sun gazing might work for those few people whose brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would go to one of those sun
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                          Well, I think sun gazing might work for those "few" people whose
                                          brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would
                                          go to one of those sun gazing workshops would fall into that
                                          category! : ) So, I guess it would seem "real" to those
                                          already "blind" to reality. Yes, the brain is capable of being
                                          tricked!

                                          Mish

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                                          <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                                          > Hello Mish,
                                          >
                                          > I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)
                                          >
                                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                          > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                          > > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle
                                          East
                                          > > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                          > > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I
                                          would
                                          > > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part
                                          sport
                                          > > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and
                                          it
                                          > > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                          > > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter
                                          than
                                          > > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!
                                          >
                                          > That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                          > fooled so easily sometimes!
                                          >
                                          > > Secondly, it
                                          > > can be quite profitable for you.
                                          >
                                          > This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                          > similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that
                                          he
                                          > knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                          > talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                          > could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                          > wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed
                                          him
                                          > because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all
                                          are!
                                          >
                                          > > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of
                                          being
                                          > > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not
                                          just
                                          > > trust your inner guidance?
                                          >
                                          > Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be
                                          a
                                          > fool ...!! :-D
                                          >
                                          > > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                          > > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                          > > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it
                                          some
                                          > > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                          > >people
                                          > > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                          > within
                                          > > themselves?
                                          >
                                          > I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                          > finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes
                                          and
                                          > see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                          > enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary
                                          things
                                          > because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                          > enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in
                                          the
                                          > morning and being grateful for the day!
                                          >
                                          > > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And
                                          why
                                          > > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                          > > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd
                                          be
                                          > > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )
                                          >
                                          > And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                          > Ingrid
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hi Ingrid, This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum ... traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go to Mexico
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                            Hi Ingrid,
                                            This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum

                                            > > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                            traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                            to Mexico for Layatril treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                            however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                            the "Prophet!"

                                            > I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course
                                            in what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you
                                            have to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods
                                            as well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and
                                            inform ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything
                                            that comes up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent
                                            in some fields!


                                            ###True, However, the Layatril treatments were proven to be a scam
                                            to rob sick, rich and desparate Americans (mostly) of their money.
                                            One could say that it did give some people hope, but it also
                                            prevented many from receiving needed traditional treatment. Rod
                                            Stewart had lytics in song mentioning Latatril but I'm not sure if
                                            it was "Better off Dead" or "Foolish Behavior?"



                                            > > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have
                                            increased as a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear
                                            induced mass hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if"
                                            thinking that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                            > Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies
                                            and the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap
                                            he uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                            Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!



                                            ###Yes, and the Youths in Eck are being brainwashed with this same
                                            crap! What will happen to them, I wonder, when they come out of the
                                            fog and realize the truth when seeing the lies?



                                            > > ***Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes from the stress
                                            of being in a leadership position and the expectations of the
                                            hierarchy! More and more is expected if there are to be more
                                            initiations!

                                            > The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                            were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                            serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                            were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                            advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                            a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                            in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                            because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                            enough.


                                            ### Yes, some H.I.s don't want to accept the truth about the
                                            computer generated pink slips for initiation either! It takes away
                                            from the magic and mystical imaginings and masks the deception of
                                            the fraud. Yes, I also know what you mean by people acting
                                            too "sweet." I knew a RESA who would give Eckists a hug and then
                                            say, "I love you!" This was her "thing" for awhile, and it seemed
                                            quite inappropriate and over the top! It caught people off guard and
                                            was something only a "RESA" could get away with. No one else could
                                            or would do this, because then those special words would
                                            (eventually) have no meaning or value if said so casually and
                                            recklessly.



                                            > > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                            strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                            see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                            is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                            violation of the Four Zoas!

                                            > LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                            big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)


                                            ### Yes, funny how the truth can become negative when it is not
                                            their truth, or when they (Eckists) are not ready to hear it!



                                            > > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks
                                            like only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way
                                            this is like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals
                                            would be those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves
                                            like the Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned
                                            with achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                            > The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization"
                                            experience! And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to
                                            have been, with all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that
                                            local magazine! But, you know, Prometheus - we women will become men
                                            in the next few lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the
                                            LEM/mahanta! :-)


                                            ### Yes, that's the Catch-22 of the scam! I guess that one or two
                                            Catholic women (living today) can become the Pope in their next or
                                            some other futuristic incarnation! What are the odds?



                                            > > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                            if this person has tried this technique? <Sun Gazing>

                                            > I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about
                                            experiences of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!


                                            ### Right, I doubt if this person has done any Sun Gazing on her
                                            own, but she is of that mind set to try anything and everything
                                            others have to offer. Too bad that she doesn't have more Self-
                                            confidence in her own Self by now.

                                            Prometheus
                                          • mishmisha9
                                            Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar sites
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Mar 31 2:14 AM
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                                              Hi, Everyone!

                                              This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                              the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                              sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                              mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                              you enjoy!

                                              *********************************
                                              It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                              truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                              Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                              discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                              have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                              experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                              The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                              others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                              this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                              you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                              feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                              truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                              will continue.

                                              For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                              for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                              you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                              have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                              can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                              because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                              in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                              working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                              grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                              matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                              making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                              to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                              not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                              can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                              help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                              very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                              I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                              which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                              about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                              Mish

                                              >
                                              > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                              > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                              about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                              least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                              guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                              freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                              have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                              mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                              Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                              back to a 1st like Graham!
                                              >
                                            • eyesopen444
                                              Mishmisha9 wrote: Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Mar 31 11:42 AM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Mishmisha9 wrote:

                                                Hi, Everyone!

                                                This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                                the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                                sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                                mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                                you enjoy!

                                                *********************************
                                                It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                                truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                                Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                                discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                                have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                                experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                                The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                                others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                                this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                                you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                                feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                                truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                                will continue.

                                                For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                                for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                                you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                                have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                                can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                                because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                                in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                                working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                                grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                                matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                                making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                                to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                                not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                                can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                                help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                                very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                                I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                                which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                                about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                                Mish

                                                >
                                                > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                                > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                                about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                                least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                                guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                                freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                                have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                                mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                                Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                                back to a 1st like Graham!
                                                >
                                                ######################################################################

                                                ME:

                                                Hi Everyone!

                                                I'm pleased to express my reasons for reading/posting on ESA and ET.
                                                First of all, I'm glad they exist! In all the years I spent reading
                                                ekult books and discourses and those spiritual exercises - it seemed
                                                to me that I got as far as I was ever going to get in ekult within the
                                                first five years or so. I had too many other things going on in my
                                                life to pursue another path, so I trusted ekult and repressed my
                                                questions and doubts and hoped for the best. The thing about Spirit
                                                (IMHO) is that It will not be content to remain on a dead-end path. It
                                                is our spiritual nature to desire continued growth and more knowledge.
                                                My unanswered questions and unease with ekult kept returning.

                                                I contacted my area HI and "joined in" at a few worship services,
                                                which turned out to be pretty bizarre. I met long time members, some
                                                expressed self-doubt and couldn't understand why they had not achieved
                                                a higher initiation level (this is such an effective control
                                                technique, I'm sorry to say), others seemed almost manic with their
                                                efforts to appear happy and sooo full of Spirit. All this did was
                                                creep me out and I KNEW that I wasn't going to get any answers from
                                                these people.

                                                The next logical step in my mind was to check out the internet.<SMILE>
                                                I quickly found these "anti-eck" sites and spent several weekends
                                                exploring every link and site that I could find. When I first learned
                                                the truth, I was shocked and hurt but also fascinated. I'll admit, I
                                                was also angry! But, because of these sites, I felt the comfort of not
                                                being alone, I enjoyed the humor shared and was able to forgive myself
                                                for being taken in by such a scam.

                                                I thank Prometheus, Sharon, Liz, Mish, Alf and all of the other great
                                                posters on these sites. HUGS to you all! I don't think that I would
                                                have worked through this as quickly or as well without your help.
                                                THANK YOU!!

                                                I didn't join out of anger, revenge or hatred. Quite the opposite.
                                                I joined because I want to help those who will follow and are now
                                                where we all once were.

                                                I don't consider these "anti-eck" sites but rather as a source of
                                                TRUTH. These sites would not be needed if ekult was not a sham and HK
                                                would tell the truth. People are being hurt and balance is needed.

                                                Thanks for listening.

                                                Have Fun!

                                                Kaye
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