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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Questions About The "Astral Library" :D

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  • Elizabeth
    Prometheus wrote: Some ECKists will admit that Twitchell took the best from all of the religions of the World as he created Eckankar with power/status for
    Message 1 of 14 , May 5, 2008
       
       
      Prometheus wrote:
       
      Some ECKists will admit that Twitchell took the
      best from all of the religions of the World as he
      created Eckankar with power/status for himself.
       
      However, what is the need for a LEM since these
      EK teachings of Paul's aren't "pure" to begin with!
      Just because these compiled and condensed teachings
      are the "best" that religion has to offer (in Paul's
      opinion) doesn't mean that these teachings/opinions/
      experiences (from others) are a valid source of Divine
      Truth for each and every individual Soul. Religions,
      afterall, represent a generalized/group and lower
      (consciousness) version of Divine Truth and use
      specific dogmas and rules to control their followers.
      This is the only thing that really make them unique!
       
       
       
      ....  What I find laughable is the "stick to the Astral Library" story no matter how stupid it sounds by Klempankar and it's membership!
       
      To believe that "Astral Library" BS, or the story that Twit had to gather the truths from the four corners of the universe and bring it back as "Eckankar" as the only true path back to God is ridiculous!        
       
      I can give an example of how Twit compiled his "best" religion...  By stealing from other authors at the library where Gail worked;  Julian Johnson, and another example is Max Freedom Long re- creator of the Huna religion.  (Huna which means "secret")  Ever wonder why so many of the secret initiation words sounded Hawaiian!   I found this author's name in one of Twit's "Letters to Gail" which I find unusual since Twit rarely gave record of where he got his information... 
       
      I was able to purchase original copy books by Max Freedom Long and his Huna teachings as well as a couple VERY old letters and newsletters written by Long to his small membership back in 1953 (the postage stamp was only 2 cents!
       
      I have threatened to post some of the similarities here from these books and the Huna religion, but life just keeps me busy!  Eventually I will take a couple hours to post some of what I found....  Maybe I'll have some free time someday?  LOL
       
      Prometheus isn't there a link or links on ESA where some of the copy paste and typo examples are given at one of  David Lane's sites?
       
      Liz  (spending time today in my garden!)              
    • Elizabeth
      Hi Jivat, To answer your question about Alice Bailey s similarities; I had posted a bunch of this info here on ESA probably about two years ago? Sometime
      Message 2 of 14 , May 5, 2008
        Hi Jivat,
         
        To answer your question about Alice Bailey's similarities;  I had posted a bunch of this info here on ESA probably about two years ago?  Sometime around May of 2005?  I'll go in and check to be sure....  I also posted some of the links that take you directly to the source of where I found it. 
         
        Liz
         
        -------Original Message-------
         
         
        I also lost the address of a post that displayed troubling
        similarities between quotes from the Sharyiat and Alice Bailey's
        descriptions of the initiations. I thought it was on your message
        board, but I can't find it and I didn't find it on similar message boards
        either. One thing is sure: It is a post, not a regular web page. Do
        you or someone else know what I'm talking about?
         
        Jivat
         
         
      • mishmisha9
        Re: Questions About The Astral Library :D Hi, Jivat! I ll try to do a search on those comparisons. I do believe that it can be easily verified as Twitchell
        Message 3 of 14 , May 5, 2008
          Re: Questions About The "Astral Library" :D

          Hi, Jivat!

          I'll try to do a search on those comparisons. I do believe that it
          can be easily verified as Twitchell had the habit of copying complete
          full text, and I don't believe that he was so astute with spelling or
          that he took the trouble to proof-read for errors. He was smart,
          but not that smart. Plus, master that he claimed to be, I don't think he
          envisioned the world of the Internet that is now giving Klemp so
          much trouble. Klemp's fake emr disease just isn't that contagious
          to chelas--and keeping them away from cyberspace! LOL!

          I did find this article by Alice Bailey that explains initiations in
          which it mentions the astral plane, adepts, etc. Perhaps, this is
          the source the person posting was addressing? Here's the link
          to the article:

          http://kingsgarden.org/English/Organizations/OMM.GB/WomenWriters/AliceBailey/ini\
          tiation/init1008.html

          I'll try to keep looking. I kind of enjoy investigations! : )

          Mish

          p.s. There is a link on this site that compares parts of the Sharyiat,
          Flute of God and other writings of Twitchell with the Path of the
          Masters and how they are the same. I'll try to pull that up too!

          I enjoy your posts!
          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jivatmananda"
          <jivatmananda@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Prometheus,
          >
          > It's something I found while navigating from one site to another using
          > their back links. I landed on a page that compared quotes from Paul
          > Twitchell and Julian Johnson. It was either a website of David Lane or
          > borrowed material from his works. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark
          > it as I didn't intend to post anything at the time. If you have access
          > to David Lane, I would suggest contacting him to get the exact
          > information. I understand that you may want factual data to back up
          > posts on your message board, so please free to delete my post if we
          > can't find it at this time.
          >
          > I also lost the address of a post that displayed troubling
          > similarities between quotes from the Sharyiat and Alice Bailey's
          > descriptions of the initiations. I thought it was on your message
          > board, but I can't find it and I didn't find it on similar message boards
          > either. One thing is sure: It is a post, not a regular web page. Do
          > you or someone else know what I'm talking about?
          >
          > Jivat
          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Jivat,
          > > Maybe the Powers That Be hired Klemp to do
          > > the proofreading, therefore, the errors! HK
          > > s/b persecuted, let alone prosecuted, for his
          > > participation in this ongoing fraud/hoax and
          > > for the coverups involving the EK (PT's)
          > > plagiarisms.
          > >
          > > Do you have any examples of these typos
          > > that PT copied from the Path of the Masters?
          > >
          > > It's interesting that Klemp has admitted that
          > > Twitchell "compiled" (plagiarized) information,
          > > but never gave a logical explanation. Instead,
          > > ECKists will believe the "Astral Library" version,
          > > thereby, switching their brains off! I guess most
          > > of these ECKists need to believe in something,
          > > but Why in everything out of Klemp's mouth!
          > >
          > > Some ECKists will admit that Twitchell took the
          > > best from all of the religions of the World as he
          > > created Eckankar with power/status for himself.
          > >
          > > However, what is the need for a LEM since these
          > > EK teachings of Paul's aren't "pure" to begin with!
          > > Just because these compiled and condensed teachings
          > > are the "best" that religion has to offer (in Paul's
          > > opinion) doesn't mean that these teachings/opinions/
          > > experiences (from others) are a valid source of Divine
          > > Truth for each and every individual Soul. Religions,
          > > afterall, represent a generalized/group and lower
          > > (consciousness) version of Divine Truth and use
          > > specific dogmas and rules to control their followers.
          > > This is the only thing that really make them unique!
          > >
          > > None teach or expect their followers to achieve
          > > Spiritual Freedom, Self-Mastery or God-Realization
          > > in this lifetime... there's always one more step or another
          > > Catch-22 to distract and hold the follower with more
          > > and more unfulfilled promises! Religion is a KAL tool
          > > used to side-track and fool the masses while those
          > > who see beyond these ancient slight-of-hand tricks
          > > of mankind's lower nature, eventually, find Truth and
          > > Freedom, and True Love via their Own Personal Journey
          > > with Divine Spirit.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > jivatmananda wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hello All,
          > > >
          > > > I'm sure that at least some of you are visiting the "astral library"
          > > > on a regular basis, so I have a few questions for you guys. I recently
          > > > noticed that both Paul Twitchell and Julian Johnson copied the same
          > > > typos from the "source manuscript" in the "astral library". Julian
          > > > Johnson first, then Paul Twichell several years later.
          > > >
          > > > Is it an "astral custom" to copy typos from "astral source
          > > > manuscripts"? After all, there must be a major reason why both authors
          > > > left these typos in their respective physical books. While visiting
          > > > the astral library, did you find a notice like this: "You are free to
          > > > copy anything, but you must leave the typos. Offenders will be
          > > > prosecuted and are liable to three months of astral hell"?
          > > >
          > > > Why are there typos on these "astral manuscripts" in the first place?
          > > > Do they hire cheap labour to write them? Don't they have enough astral
          > > > money to hire astral proofreaders?
          > > >
          > > > :D
          > > >
          > > > Jivat
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Elizabeth
          Here is one of those comparisons: Quote from Paul Twitchell s book Eckankar, The Key to Secret Worlds , last paragraph on pg 75, and continued on to pg 76.:
          Message 4 of 14 , May 5, 2008
             Here is one of those comparisons:
             
            Quote from Paul Twitchell's book "Eckankar, The Key to Secret
            Worlds", last paragraph on pg 75, and continued on to pg 76.:

            "The first thing about a Mahanta is that he never boasts of his
            Spiritual powers or attainments. If any man claims to have attained
            The highest in spiritual development, that claim of itself may be
            Taken as conclusive proof that he has not attained much.

            The Mahanta will never find fault, blame others, or complain of
            Treatment at the hands of others. Even if you abuse a Mahanta, he
            Will not answer angrily, nor will he speak of it afterwards. They
            Never speak of their hard luck, or the ingratitude of their
            Beneficiaries.

            They speak no ill and they never lecture others concerning their
            Conduct or shortcomings. Neither do they punish anybody. They give
            Only of the light of God and love. Another point is that they never
            Give to ascetic practices, or unreasonable austerities. They never
            Beg for a living and are self-supporting. This is because the
            Traveler is always the giver, but he never allows any of those who
            Follow him to live in idleness." End quote.


            And from "The Path of the Masters" by Julian P. Johnson (the primary
            Book Twitchell used to create Eckankar) there is listed
            Ten "Objective Indices of Mastership" on pages 227-230.

            1. "... Real Masters never charge for their services..."

            2. "Masters never boast of their mastership or of their spiritual
            Powers or attainments."

            3. "Masters never complain of their treatment at the hands of
            Others."

            4. "Masters never find fault or blame others either to their faces
            Or behind their backs, no matter what the provocation."

            5. "Masters never punish anybody, even their worst enemies or such
            As have mistreated them."

            6. "Masters are never given to ascetic practices or unreasonable
            Austerities."

            7. "Masters never go about begging their living."

            8. "A real Master never performs miracles for public exibition."

            9. "All genuine Masters teach and practice the Audible Life Stream,
            Or the Sound Current, called in Hindi the Shabd."

            10. "If any yogi or other man claiming to be a Master teaches that
            Brahm Lok or the region of Brahm is the highest of all heavens, and
            That Brahm is the Supreme God, then you may know of a certainty that
            He is not a Master."
          • jivatmananda
            Hi Elisabeth, Mish, Prometheus and All, Thanks for the links and info. I will definitely look at them soon. Mish, I not sure that Klemp fakes his emr disease,
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5, 2008
              Hi Elisabeth, Mish, Prometheus and All,

              Thanks for the links and info. I will definitely look at them soon.
              Mish, I not sure that Klemp fakes his emr disease, although he
              obviously uses it as a way to keep his chelas away from the Internet.
              It seems he used to live in a house located within a powerful
              magnetic field that was responsible for the disease. If that story is
              accurate, I wonder why the master of all universes was unable to
              detect the problem from the very beginning. They are many zero
              initiates who are sensitive to energy fields and who would never
              remain in a place with too much electromagnetic pollution.

              While Harry's spiritual vision was unable to detect a most obvious
              problem, Eckists do believe him when he says that the first man and
              the first women came on Earth via teleportation from the astral plane.

              That kind of delusion is actually more serious than the "astral
              library" fantasy. The latter was most likely Harry's desperate attempt
              to reconcile hard facts with the cherished image of his spiritual
              hero. I guess that Harry dreamed of the astral library and woke up
              with a sight of relief. At last, he knew the whole truth about these
              plagiarism accusations. It was time to tell the whole world about it. Lol.

              As mentioned above, the delusion about the first man and women is a
              more serious matter in my opinion. It shows that Harry takes all his
              inner experiences for granted without any need for further validation.
              It's basically a form of mental disorder.

              Jivat


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Re: Questions About The "Astral Library" :D
              >
              > Hi, Jivat!
              >
              > I'll try to do a search on those comparisons. I do believe that it
              > can be easily verified as Twitchell had the habit of copying complete
              > full text, and I don't believe that he was so astute with spelling or
              > that he took the trouble to proof-read for errors. He was smart,
              > but not that smart. Plus, master that he claimed to be, I don't think he
              > envisioned the world of the Internet that is now giving Klemp so
              > much trouble. Klemp's fake emr disease just isn't that contagious
              > to chelas--and keeping them away from cyberspace! LOL!
              >
              > I did find this article by Alice Bailey that explains initiations in
              > which it mentions the astral plane, adepts, etc. Perhaps, this is
              > the source the person posting was addressing? Here's the link
              > to the article:
              >
              >
              http://kingsgarden.org/English/Organizations/OMM.GB/WomenWriters/AliceBailey/ini\
              > tiation/init1008.html
              >
              > I'll try to keep looking. I kind of enjoy investigations! : )
              >
              > Mish
              >
              > p.s. There is a link on this site that compares parts of the Sharyiat,
              > Flute of God and other writings of Twitchell with the Path of the
              > Masters and how they are the same. I'll try to pull that up too!
              >
              > I enjoy your posts!

              >
            • mishmisha9
              Hi, Jivat and All! Actually, I think that Klemp has made himself sick over the years. Jumping into freezing water in his failed suicide attempt, messing with
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5, 2008
                Hi, Jivat and All!

                Actually, I think that Klemp has made himself sick over the
                years. Jumping into freezing water in his failed suicide attempt,
                messing with cleaning chemicals in a closed basement, and
                then his presumed exposure to emr. EMR has been a good
                excuse to caution chelas away from the Internet--how convenient!
                However, the monitors now are mostly LED instead of CRT, so
                there isn't the emr emissions.

                I certainly agree that Klemp is delusional and mentally ill. His
                delusions and mental problems are quite obvious in what he
                has shared about his life story. Anger, frustration, meanness,
                stripping at the airport episode while he continues to think that
                he is "highest consciousness known to mankind" are all indicators
                that Klemp was mentally ill from his youth on. Eckankar attracted
                him like it has some others because of his lopsided views of himself
                and the world around him.

                With that thought, one has to wonder just how sane Joan is to
                have been attracted to eckankar and then to Klemp as she
                worked closely beside him in the office when he was still a
                mahanta wannabee! What was she thinking!! After all, she
                left her first husband, a professor at a leading university, to
                take up with the much lesser educated and much lesser intelligent
                and mentally unstable Klemp. LOL!

                Mish

                p.s. Sharon, thanks for your explanation regarding your recent post
                on ESA. Much appreciated.

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jivatmananda"
                <jivatmananda@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Elisabeth, Mish, Prometheus and All,
                >
                > Thanks for the links and info. I will definitely look at them soon.
                > Mish, I not sure that Klemp fakes his emr disease, although he
                > obviously uses it as a way to keep his chelas away from the Internet.
                > It seems he used to live in a house located within a powerful
                > magnetic field that was responsible for the disease. If that story is
                > accurate, I wonder why the master of all universes was unable to
                > detect the problem from the very beginning. They are many zero
                > initiates who are sensitive to energy fields and who would never
                > remain in a place with too much electromagnetic pollution.
                >
                > While Harry's spiritual vision was unable to detect a most obvious
                > problem, Eckists do believe him when he says that the first man and
                > the first women came on Earth via teleportation from the astral plane.
                >
                > That kind of delusion is actually more serious than the "astral
                > library" fantasy. The latter was most likely Harry's desperate attempt
                > to reconcile hard facts with the cherished image of his spiritual
                > hero. I guess that Harry dreamed of the astral library and woke up
                > with a sight of relief. At last, he knew the whole truth about these
                > plagiarism accusations. It was time to tell the whole world about it. Lol.
                >
                > As mentioned above, the delusion about the first man and women is a
                > more serious matter in my opinion. It shows that Harry takes all his
                > inner experiences for granted without any need for further validation.
                > It's basically a form of mental disorder.
                >
                > Jivat
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Re: Questions About The "Astral Library" :D
                > >
                > > Hi, Jivat!
                > >
                > > I'll try to do a search on those comparisons. I do believe that it
                > > can be easily verified as Twitchell had the habit of copying complete
                > > full text, and I don't believe that he was so astute with spelling or
                > > that he took the trouble to proof-read for errors. He was smart,
                > > but not that smart. Plus, master that he claimed to be, I don't think he
                > > envisioned the world of the Internet that is now giving Klemp so
                > > much trouble. Klemp's fake emr disease just isn't that contagious
                > > to chelas--and keeping them away from cyberspace! LOL!
                > >
                > > I did find this article by Alice Bailey that explains initiations in
                > > which it mentions the astral plane, adepts, etc. Perhaps, this is
                > > the source the person posting was addressing? Here's the link
                > > to the article:
                > >
                > >
                > http://kingsgarden.org/English/Organizations/OMM.GB/WomenWriters/AliceBailey/ini\
                > > tiation/init1008.html
                > >
                > > I'll try to keep looking. I kind of enjoy investigations! : )
                > >
                > > Mish
                > >
                > > p.s. There is a link on this site that compares parts of the Sharyiat,
                > > Flute of God and other writings of Twitchell with the Path of the
                > > Masters and how they are the same. I'll try to pull that up too!
                > >
                > > I enjoy your posts!
                >
                > >
                >
              • etznab@aol.com
                Can you give some examples of the typos from Julian Johnson and Paul Twitchell s writings? Etznab ************** Wondering what s for Dinner Tonight? Get new
                Message 7 of 14 , May 6, 2008

                     Can you give some examples of the typos from
                  Julian Johnson and Paul Twitchell's writings?

                  Etznab



                  **************
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                • etznab@aol.com
                  In a message dated 5/5/08 9:48:04 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Liz, That sounds interesting. I would be interested, if you have the time to share, and/or
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 6, 2008
                    In a message dated 5/5/08 9:48:04 AM Central Daylight Time, ewickings@... writes:


                    To answer your question about Alice Bailey's similarities;  I had posted a bunch of this info here on ESA probably about two years ago?  Sometime around May of 2005?  I'll go in and check to be sure....  I also posted some of the links that take you directly to the source of where I found it. 


                    Liz,

                       That sounds interesting. I would be interested,
                    if you have the time to share, and/or provide some
                    links.

                       What interests me most, however, are any ex-
                    amples where written material from other books and
                    authors is/was attributed to Eck Masters. This, IMO,
                    is beyond plagiarism.

                       Having an eye for history - fact vs. fiction - I find it
                    (and found it) most unsettling whenever Eck Masters
                    (that I believed in as "real" people) are/were animated
                    by historical literature written by someone else. Why
                    the Dave/Doug debates, etc., focused on plaigarism
                    is understandable, IMO. However, "creating real living
                    people" from literature by real living people - when the
                    two parties are not the same - is very curious to me.
                    It's something I have tried to capture the evolution of
                    over time, and in order to better understand how and
                    why it came about.

                       BTW, this is also beyond (and more than) some
                    Astral Library theory/allegation, IMO, because what
                    I'm talking about has more to do with the creation of
                    fiction and pseudo history than plaigarism, or just a
                    matter of copying data from one place to another.

                       In Ford Johnson's book was a quote attributed to
                    Rebazar Tarzs (pp. 115, 116) that is suspiciously
                    similar (IMO) to a quote by Vivekananda in The Path
                    of the Masters (Punjab: R.S.S.B, 1985), p. 28. by
                    Julian Johnson. More than anything else in Ford's
                    book, this was something that disturbed me most.
                    It was also what set me on a course to research
                    more about Eckankar history for myself.

                       I don't know that I've seen many examples of
                    similarities between A.B. and P.T.'s writings. It
                    would be something I'd like to look at though.

                    Etznab

                      



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                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Liz, Yes, I agree that is a classic example. It is not only in the book E.K.T.S.W. , but Mahanta and Living Eck Master descriptions throughout several of the
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 6, 2008
                      Liz,

                         Yes, I agree that is a classic example.

                         It is not only in the book "E.K.T.S.W.", but Mahanta
                      and Living Eck Master descriptions throughout several
                      of the Eckankar books - including the Shariyat - contain
                      illustrations very similar to what Julian Johnson put out
                      over 25 years before Eckankar was ever founded! John-
                      son does not use the terms "Living Eck Master" or the
                      "Mahanta" though. Of course, a person would probably
                      not understand what I'm referring to unless they bought
                      and/or read The Path of the Masters.

                      Etznab



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                    • jivatmananda
                      Hi Eztnab, As I wrote earlier, I didn t bookmark the website where I found comparisons between Twitchell and Johnson as I didn t intend to post anything at the
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 6, 2008
                        Hi Eztnab,

                        As I wrote earlier, I didn't bookmark the website where I found
                        comparisons between Twitchell and Johnson as I didn't intend to post
                        anything at the time. Let's say that the Holy Spirit called me to duty
                        in the meantime.

                        By the way, I also lost the location of a pdf document from an obscure
                        swami that is extremely similar to the Tiger's Fang. If I remember
                        correctly, some sentences are identical. I saved it on a hard disk
                        that is no longer functional and I don't have the Internet location.
                        Do you or anyone else know what I'm speaking about? If not, I think I
                        may eventually find it as I remember a bunch of keywords.

                        Jivat

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Can you give some examples of the typos from
                        > Julian Johnson and Paul Twitchell's writings?
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        >
                        > **************
                        > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on
                        > family favorites at AOL Food.
                        >
                        > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
                        >
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        In a message dated 5/6/08 9:27:19 PM Central Daylight Time, ... No. I don t know. That book The Secret of Light , by Walter Russell, copyright 1947, however,
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 6, 2008
                          In a message dated 5/6/08 9:27:19 PM Central Daylight Time, jivatmananda@... writes:


                          By the way, I also lost the location of a pdf document from an obscure
                          swami that is extremely similar to the Tiger's Fang. If I remember
                          correctly, some sentences are identical. I saved it on a hard disk
                          that is no longer functional and I don't have the Internet location.
                          Do you or anyone else know what I'm speaking about? If not, I think I
                          may eventually find it as I remember a bunch of keywords.


                             No. I don't know.

                             That book "The Secret of Light", by Walter Russell,
                          copyright 1947, however, might have "inspired" some
                          parts of The Tiger's Fang though. Example:

                          "Truth is simple. Balance is simple. Rhythmic balanced   
                          interchange between all pairs of opposite expressions in
                          Natural phenomena, and in human relations, is the con-
                          sumate art of God's universe of Light."

                             [From THE SECRET OF LIGHT (p.2) by Walter Russell,  
                          copyright 1947]

                             I haven't read this book by Russell myself, but the data
                          I shared with you came from a website link.

                          Etznab




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