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Re: Fw: Survey for former members

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Sharon! I took a quick look at the website and the credentials of the board of directors, etc. I am wondering, though, why this org feels that former cult
    Message 1 of 3 , May 3 8:52 AM
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      Hi, Sharon!

      I took a quick look at the website and the credentials of the
      board of directors, etc. I am wondering, though, why this org feels
      that former cult members need the assistance of mainstream religious
      groups? I think many people who join new age type spiritual groups,
      especially, are trying to get away from mainstream religions. So,
      how would these religious orgs appeal to someone like me?

      I'll look at the questionnaire in more detail a little later, but I am
      leery to assist religious based groups in converting cult members back
      to mainstream religions. Mainly, because I don't feel the need for
      any religious teachings for myself. They're all based on myth, lies and
      hidden agendas of men.

      But thanks for the link! Nice to see your post!

      Mish
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, Hi Mish! It looks like ICSA is offering cult psychological training for some of these churches and has it s own clerics available as well. The
      Message 2 of 3 , May 3 10:28 AM
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        Hello All,
        Hi Mish! It looks like ICSA is offering cult psychological
        training for some of these churches and has it's own
        clerics available as well. The survey, it seems, is more
        for those cult survivors without housing, job skills, etc.
        like the women and children from that fundamentalist
        Mormon cult in Texas, and from those who don't have
        a problem with main stream religions. The survey is to
        determine how well people were helped by their churches
        and in what areas of help they received, etc.

        I'd like to thank Sharon for sending this because I found
        the following article interesting.

        This can be found on the ICSA site under STUDY GUIDES
        and CLERGY. It was from the ISCA E-Newsletter, Vol. 3,
        No. 2, September 2004 and written by Rev. Dr. Harold Bussell.

        What's interesting is how this, too, can be applied to Eckankar
        dogma & guidelines, Satsangs, and to EK Leaders, especially,
        Klemp! All in all it's just a little too "religious" for me, but it
        does point out that Soul doesn't need anyone or any religion
        over It!

        **************************************************************
        Checks on Power and Authority in the New Testament
        Rev. Dr. Harold Bussell

        The following outline was used in a talk on this subject at AFF's
        conference, "Understanding Cults and New Religious Movements,"
        at Chapman University in Orange California, June 13-14, 2004.


        One problem in the Church is that people fail to be accountable
        to others. Another problem is that when people are accountable,
        often that willingness to be responsible is abused by leaders.

        Have you ever had a Christian leader imply that you were either
        rebellious or disobedient to God because you didn't take their advice?

        Have you ever had a Christian leader tell you that you had an evil
        spirit or a spirit of rebellion simply because you asked questions?

        Have you ever challenged a leader and they saw this as an assault
        on their authority?

        Have you ever felt that a leader (or leaders) was (were) lording
        it over you?

        Does it ever bother you when a Christian group, community,
        or Bible study all look, act and talk alike?

        Has another Christian ever told you that they were your shepherd?

        If any of these questions ignite a positive response in you, you may
        be involved in an aberrant and potentially destructive relationship
        or group.

        The New Testament gives us some basic guidelines to protect us
        from getting involved in relationships which are destructive both
        emotionally and spiritually.

        I. PETER

        Peter was accountable to others. He carefully explained his position
        to eat with and baptize Gentiles. He did not presume that his position
        as an apostle was beyond question. He explained his actions and answered
        questions. HE DID NOT SEE THIS ACCOUNTABILITY AS AN ASSAULT ON
        HIS AUTHORITY.

        A. Acts 11:1-4 The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea
        heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter
        went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him and said,
        "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."

        Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened:
        "I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw
        something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners,
        and it came down to where I was. I looked into it and saw four-footed animals
        of the earth. Wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. Then I heard a voice
        telling me, `Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.' "

        I replied, `Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered
        my mouth.' The voice spoke from heaven a second time, `Do not call anything
        impure that God has made clean.' This happened three times, and then it was
        all pulled up to heaven again. Right then three men who had been sent to me
        from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying."

        B. Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections
        and praised God, saying "so then, god has granted even the Gentiles repentance
        unto life."

        II. PAUL ENCOURAGED CHALLENGE

        Paul encouraged the Corinthians to judge his words and evaluate them to
        see if they were appropriate or not.

        A. I Corinthians 10:15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves
        what I say.

        III. PAUL AND PETER

        When Peter, who was an apostle before Paul, moved from grace to legalism
        as the way of faith, Paul confronted him. Paul did not say, "I CANNOT QUESTION
        THOSE IN AUTHORITY OVER ME."

        A. Galatians 2:11-14 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him
        to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came
        from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began
        to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid
        of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him
        in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
        When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the Gospel,
        I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile
        and not like a Jew. How is it then that you force the Gentiles to follow Jewish
        customs?"

        IV. PETER AND CORNELIUS

        Peter was open and answered questions about his behavior with Cornelius.
        Subsequently the apostles and elders met to consider the issue once more,
        as there were many questions and disagreements. They did not say,
        "PETER IS A SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OVER US SO WE CANNOT CHALLENGE HIM."
        (Study Acts 11 and 15).

        V. PROBLEMS DID NOT CAUSE DESPAIR

        Problems arose between Peter and Paul before the whole congregation,
        (Galatians 2:11-14), between Paul and Barnabas over John Mark
        (Acts 15:36-40), and between Paul and the Corinthians over many
        issues (2 Corinthians). THESE PROBLEMS NEITHER ENDED THEIR
        RELATIONSHIPS NOR CAUSED DESPAIR THAT THE UNITY WAS NOT
        ACHIEVED INSTANTLY. Paul and Peter, Paul and Barnabas, and Paul
        and the Corinthians worked through these difficulties in time.

        A. Galatians 2:11-14 (Printed above).

        B. Acts 15:36-49 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, "Let
        us go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached
        the word of the Lord and see how they are doing." Barnabas wanted
        to take John, also called Mark, with them, but Paul did not think it wise
        to take him because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not
        continued with them in the work. They had such a sharp disagreement
        that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus,
        but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace
        of the Lord. He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

        VI. THE NEW TESTAMENT ASSUMES THAT ELDERS MAY NEED CONFRONTATION
        AND HAVE THE CAPACITY TO ABUSE AUTHORITY

        We are not to be like the world, lording it over one another seeking
        status for ourselves afraid of losing face before others. OUR CONFIDENCE
        IS IN CHRIST AND NOT IN OUR POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY.

        A. I Timothy 5:19, 20 Do not entertain an accusation against an
        elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to
        be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

        B. Luke 22:24-27 Also a dispute arose among them as to which
        of them was considered to be greatest. Jesus said to them, "The kings of
        the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them
        call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the
        greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules
        like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who is at the table
        or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among
        you as one who serves."

        C. I Peter 5:3 Not lording it over those entrusted to you, but
        being examples to the flock.

        D. Luke 11:43 "Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the
        most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces."

        E. Luke 20:46 "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like
        to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted in the market
        places and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the
        places of honor at banquets."

        VII. NO AUTHORITY STRUCTURE WILL USHER IN A UTOPIA

        Paul assumes problems will always exist and we need to deal with
        them in a certain manner. This includes leadership as well.

        A. Colossians 3:12-15 Therefore, as god's chosen people, holy
        and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility,
        gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances
        you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And
        over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect
        unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one
        body you were called to peace. And be thankful.

        GOD IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO NEVER HAS TO APOLOGIZE. IF PETER
        COULD GO OFF BASE AFTER PENTECOST, SO CAN LEADERS TODAY.
        VIII. JESUS AND SHEPHERDING

        Jesus did not force His disciples to submit to Him. He did not duplicate
        Himself in them. He always left them with their personalities and attitudes.

        A. Jesus went into the garden to pray. He asked the disciples
        to pray, but they went to sleep. His discipleship program left them with
        wills of their own. They chose to sleep. He did not force His will in the matter.

        1.) Matthew 26:37-46 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along
        with Him, and He began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then He said to them,
        "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and
        keep watch with me."

        Going a little further, He fell with His face to the ground and prayed,
        "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as
        I will, but as you will." Then He returned to His disciples and found them
        sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?"
        he asked Peter. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.
        The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

        He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible
        for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
        When He came back, He again found them sleeping, because their eyes
        were heavy. So He left them and went away once more and prayed
        the third time, saying the same thing. Then he returned to the disciples
        and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is
        near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Arise,
        let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

        B. During Judas' betrayal you do not see Jesus commanding
        Judas to submit and straighten up. He allowed the man to break
        rank and to rebel.

        1.) Matthew 26:47-50 While He was still speaking, Judas, one of the
        Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs,
        sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer
        had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him."
        Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.
        Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."

        C. The disciples rebuked a man because he was not one of their group.
        Jesus then rebuked them. He informed them that the man was of Him
        even though he was not in their group.

        1.) Mark 9:38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons
        in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."

        D. After the crucifixion the disciples were so disorganized and
        confused that they didn't even know that Jesus was the Christ. If He
        had exercised a strong authority over them, they would have been forced
        to believe in the resurrection.

        IX. The New Testament and Closed Meetings

        Jesus took the disciples out on a special retreat, and five thousand people
        went with Him. He taught them all the same things. They did not have
        greater truths belonging only to a select few.

        A. Paul makes the point that unbelievers were present in
        New Testament meetings.

        1.) I Corinthians 14:16 If you are praising God with your spirit, how
        can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen"
        to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?

        B. God called Saul directly. He didn't use the apostles to speak
        for Him. Ananias baptized Paul and he was called a disciple not a shepherd.

        1.) Acts 9:10-18 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias.
        The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias"

        "Yes, Lord," he answered. The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas
        on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is
        praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place
        his hands on him to restore his sight."

        "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man
        and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has
        come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call
        on your name."

        But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument
        to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kinds and before the
        people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

        Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on
        Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord – Jesus, who appeared to you on
        the road as you were coming here – has sent me so that you may see
        again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like
        scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was
        baptized.

        C. There is no evidence of shepherds (the apostles) indoctrinating
        Saul through cell group activity. There is no evidence that they sat down
        with Saul (Paul) and told him how to submit to them. There is no evidence
        of any "super submission" program.

        X. Words of Caution and Guidelines

        Any discipleship program must keep its eyes on Christ and not on
        the human leader.

        A. In true discipleship, one is to be conformed to the image
        of Jesus Christ.

        1. Galatians 4:19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains
        of childbirth until Christ is formed in you.

        2.) Hebrews 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter
        of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning
        its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

        3.) Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new self, which is being
        renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

        4.) Ephesians 4:15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in
        all things grow up into Him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

        5.) Luke 6:40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who
        is fully trained will be like his teacher.

        B. Paul says: Do not be anxious about anything but go to
        God. HE DOESN'T SAY ELDERS!!!

        1.) Philippians 4:6-7 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything,
        by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
        And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard
        your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

        C James writes: If anyone lacks wisdom, let him go to God.
        HE DOESN'T SAY ELDERS OR SHEPHERDS.

        1.James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who
        gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

        D. Paul asks them to pray for him, not make decisions for him.

        1.) Ephesians 6:18-20 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with
        all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
        keep on praying for all the saints. Pray also for me, that whenever I
        open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make
        known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains.
        Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

        2.) Colossians 4:3, 4 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door
        for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for
        which I am in chains. Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should.

        3.) I Thessalonians 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

        E. Paul says: Carry each other's burdens. He also says each
        person is responsible to carry their own.

        1.)Galatians 6:2-5 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will
        fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing,
        he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can
        take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for
        each one should carry his own load.

        F. Elders are responsible to counsel, encourage, and rebuke on the
        personal level. So are believers.

        1.) II Timothy 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out
        of season; correct, rebuke and encourage – with great patience and
        careful instruction.

        2.) Titus 2:15 These, then are the things you should teach.
        Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

        3.) Galatians 6:1-5 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who
        are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you
        also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way
        you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something
        when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his
        own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing
        himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.

        4.) Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you
        teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms,
        hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

        G. We are to honor those in leadership over us. However,
        they are to be overseers by example, not force.

        1.)Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of
        God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate
        their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

        XI. Jesus Only is the Head of the Church

        Each hand moves independently of the other hand. Each finger
        and each foot move independently of the other finger or foot.
        The head gives the instructions. One finger does not have to ask
        the other finger for permission to move. The nerves and the muscles
        in the arm move the finger but never the will of the arm. It is always
        from the head – who is Christ.

        A. Paul and Barnabas refused to follow a legalistic rule of
        submission when it violated their convictions.

        1.) Acts 15:36-39 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us
        go back and visit the brothers in all the towns where we preached the word
        of the Lord and see how they are doing." Barnabas wanted to take John,
        also called Mark, with them, but Paul did not think it was wise to take him
        because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with
        them in the work. They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted
        company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, but Paul chose Silas
        and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. He went
        through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

        Many authoritarian discipleship groups claim that the sheep are too
        dumb to receive direction from God and therefore need shepherds.
        The letters in the New Testament are written to all. Not just leaders.

        IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THE WORD SHEEP IS USED TWENTY-TWO TIMES,
        AND PERTAINING TO GOD'S CHILDREN, THE WORD SON FIFTY-SIX TIMES,
        HEIRS THIRTEEN TIMES, SAINTS SIXTY TIMES. THIS IS NOT TO MENTION
        THE MANY TIMES WE ARE REFERRED TO AS KINGS, PRIESTS, CONQUERORS,
        OVERCOMERS, BRETHREN, ETC. TO OVEREMPHASIZE THE CHARACTERISTICS
        OF A SHEEP IS TO DESTROY THE GREATER TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD.

        Other contributions by author(s)
        Bussell, Harold, Rev. Dr.: "Why Evangelicals are Vulnerable to Cults"
        Bussell, Harold: "Checks on Power and Authority in the New Testament"
        Conference 2003 CA: Agenda
        **********************************************************************
        mish wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Sharon!
        >
        > I took a quick look at the website and the credentials of the
        > board of directors, etc. I am wondering, though, why this org feels
        > that former cult members need the assistance of mainstream religious
        > groups? I think many people who join new age type spiritual groups,
        > especially, are trying to get away from mainstream religions. So,
        > how would these religious orgs appeal to someone like me?
        >
        > I'll look at the questionnaire in more detail a little later, but I am
        > leery to assist religious based groups in converting cult members back
        > to mainstream religions. Mainly, because I don't feel the need for
        > any religious teachings for myself. They're all based on myth, lies and
        > hidden agendas of men.
        >
        > But thanks for the link! Nice to see your post!
        >
        > Mish
        >
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