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Re: Klemp Distorts ......

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  • ctecvie
    Hello Prometheus, ... Hinkle ... John Roger Hinkins, Prometheus! :-) Old JR started his scam before DG became LEM so maybe he s ... Klump ... Don t,
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 5, 2005
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      Hello Prometheus,


      > ***Yes, it does stink! But, let's also not forget John Rogers
      Hinkle
      > (sic?).

      John Roger Hinkins, Prometheus! :-)

      Old JR started his scam before DG became LEM so maybe he's
      > the real 972nd LEM and therefore DG was the 973rd, which makes
      Klump
      > the 974th and Mikey the 975th Living Eck-in-Crap Master (LEM)! Or,
      > is GF the 975th and Mikey the 976th?

      Don't, Prometheus! My head starts spinning ... :-) I'm really trying
      to follow who is what, and in which order! Seems too much for me!


      > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry about
      > being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At least
      >we
      > are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the guilt of
      > being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only freedom
      > without the fear of retaliation!

      After years of suppressing those "negative" feelings it's good to
      vent from time to time - but, dear Eckies, this is only a part of our
      new life - mostly we're out enjoying life as it is, and enjoying the
      love and protection that are always there as well.

      > Let's face it... all of you have to
      > watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is mentioned
      > on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why? Because you
      > can lose that next initiation or position or even be put back to a
      > 1st like Graham!

      Yes there's a lot to watch ... I did it myself, without even noticing
      it! I have found out that I was, in fact, worried about my next
      initiation ... and, I hate to say it, I was a bit in awe of all those
      HIs ...

      Ingrid
    • mishmisha9
      It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the truth or that you present a differing perspective that people-- Eckies and newly
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 5, 2005
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        It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
        truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
        Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
        discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
        have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
        experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
        The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
        others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
        this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
        you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
        feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
        truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
        will continue.

        For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
        for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
        you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
        have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
        can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
        because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
        in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
        working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
        grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
        matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
        making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
        to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
        not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
        can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
        help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
        very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

        I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
        which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
        about Eckankar! Thanks!

        Mish


        > Prometheus
        > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry about
        > being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At least
        we
        > are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the guilt of
        > being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
        freedom
        > without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you have
        to
        > watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
        mentioned
        > on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why? Because
        you
        > can lose that next initiation or position or even be put back to a
        > 1st like Graham!
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Ingrid, I enjoyed your comments to Pretujari s post, and to Pretujari s insights as well! I would like to make more comments too! ... analysis of the
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 5, 2005
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          Hello Ingrid,
          I enjoyed your comments to Pretujari's post, and to Pretujari's
          insights as well! I would like to make more comments too!

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
          <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
          > Hello Pretujari,

          > I enjoyed your post very much. I have been enjoying Prometheus'
          analysis of the Klemp's naked emperor's game. I totally agree that
          not only does Klemp and other's like him distort the road to God-
          Realization, but actually are stumbling blocks.

          ***Yes, any "Master" or authority who puts himself above others is
          Not a true Master... one can only be a "Master" to oneSelf! This is
          why Surat Shab Yoga and the others religions that have a Living
          Master (that Twitch copied) are false teachings as well!

          > This is SO true!!! In a few days, it will be a year that I left,
          and I have come to realize how stumbling the blocks of Eckankar
          were, so to say. ;-))

          > > Look at the freedom, accessibility to new information, and the
          fact that life itself is pressing to help us with our unfoldment
          since we left Eckankar. All this was denied us because of the fear
          fence that Eckankrap - I like this term, so apt - put around its
          members.

          > I have found out that life - or spirit, or whatever you choose to
          call it - loves and protects us just as before, and we need no
          master to do that for us at all!

          ***True! Many of us had spiritual experiences prior to Eckankar as 0
          initiates... yet Eckankar wants to take credit for those experiences
          too! It's a real Catch-22 religion that uses its own jargon and
          dogma as an all inclusive for its past "Eck Masters" and anything in
          history as being "ECK" (SPIRIT). But, these Eckankar terms are just
          protected trademarks of a business and have No other value except to
          distort Truth!

          > > What with the 'absolute reliance on the inner master b.s. Klemp
          is as connected to the Divine Omnipresence as a cd can be connected
          to an old gramophone player.

          > As we all know, he isn't aware about our experiences at all. He's
          just like an old gramophone player, to use that term, repeating the
          same old stuff over and over. And if you listen, you can hear how
          the needle is scratching :-).

          ***Yes, but one has to admit that living in delusion is comfortable!
          An Eckist (especially H.I.s) does/do Not have to think and taking
          responsibility for daily karma is now the only concern. The all
          powerful and all knowing Mahanta has eliminated the past life karma
          so everyone can now relax some (but can you?). LOL! But wait! What
          about being a Co-Worker? What about becoming a H.I., or a Cleric,
          Initiator, Eck Spiritual Aid, a Local or State Director, President
          of the Satsang Society, or becoming a RESA? Vanity has its price!

          > > I have been examining the inner communication from what I term
          the Eckankar sugmad and its company with the recent happenings in
          that tradition. When this 'sugmad' and his council of nine worked
          with Graham Forsyth, somehow they failed to communicate what they
          were doing to Klemp.

          > Maybe Klemp was not listening - needle scratching too
          loudly ... ? :- ))

          ***Klemp has mentioned that he wasn't much of a listener!

          > > So that time came and Klemp was totally in dark about the man
          who was supposed to succeed him. This contravenes and confuses how
          the next LEM is to be chosen according to Klemp. He stated sometime
          ago that the Sugmad chooses the successor and he is informed to make
          the announcement. If this is indeed the case, at what point did the
          wires cross in the events involving the Eckankar sugmad and co, GF,
          and Klemp? And why after failing to protect his own student from
          what he called Kal influences Klemp rather reprimanded GF and
          demoted him to a lower initiation as if everything was the poor
          guy's fault? Especially when it was stated that 'He (Klemp) was
          being informed that communication will be coming to him over this
          matter.' Confessions of a God-seeker P53.

          > It's indeed the task of a master to protect his students from such
          influences! So Klemp failed completely!

          *** Yes, Klemp isn't a loving Master is he! In "The Path of the
          Masters" by Julian P. Johnson (the primary book Twitch used to
          create Eckankar)there is listed ten "Objective Indices of
          Mastership" on pages 227-230.

          1. "... real Masters never charge for their services..."
          2. "Masters never boast of their mastership or of their spiritual
          powers or attainments."
          3. "Masters never complain of their treatment at the hands of
          others."
          4. "Masters never find fault or blame others either to their faces
          or behind their backs, no matter what the provocation."
          [I'm thinking of that Temporary Postal Clerk here!]
          5. "Masters never punish anybody, even their worst enemies or such
          as have mistreated them." [I'm thinking of Darwin Gross, Graham and
          Ford here!]
          6. "Masters are never given to ascetic practices or unreasonable
          austerities."
          7. "Masters never go about begging their living."
          8. "A real Master never performs miracles for public exibition."
          [This is definitely No problem for Klump! LOL!]
          9. "All genuine Masters teach and practice the Audible Life Stream,
          or the Sound Current, called in Hindi the Shabd." [See, I told you
          Twitch stole this teaching and Westernized it as Eckankar]
          10. "If any yogi or other man claiming to be a Master teaches that
          Brahm Lok or the region of Brahm is the highest of all heavens, and
          that Brahm is the Supreme God, then you may know of a certainty that
          he is not a Master."

          > > And while all this was going on the Eckankrap sugmad and his
          crew purportedly had been busy training the self-proclaimed 974th
          LEM, Michael Owens secretly since age seven, without the knowledge
          and imput of the 973rd.

          > What confusion ...! :-)

          ***Yes, it is! But Eckist don't care and aren't concerned. Why think
          when it's so easy Not to think. Besides, what can they replace
          Eckankar with? Many Eckists (people) need their religion, and will
          never have spiritual freedom or mastership... they're afraid of the
          Self-responsibility that comes with it!

          > > Also GF was told that 'due to worsening effects of the
          conditions in Tibet.....' the Cave of Tomsk has replaced the Oracle
          of Tirmer as the location for the handing over of the Rod of Eck
          Power. Despite this Michael Owens and his two chief disciples who
          claimed to have entered the 'neophyte stages of mastership' all had
          their ceremonies at the 'discredited' Oracle of Tirmer.

          > Well, that's perhaps why Mikey cannot be acknowledged ...? Oracle
          was not current any more. :-)

          > > The current scenario is that the Eckankrap sugmad and company
          are working separately with Klemp, the 973rd, Michael Owens, the
          defacto 974th, with Graham Forsyth and even with Darwin Gross who
          still claims to be the true LEM. Meanwhile, these separate
          incarnations of the ECkankrap sugmad are at loggerheads, fighting,
          suing and in competition with each other.

          > Perhaps Suggie is preparing a secret "coup" and is keeping them
          busy on purpose, who knows? :-)

          *** Yes, the Klempster just makes it up as he goes along. Twitch did
          the same so it's (Eckankrap) all just a continuation of the Twitch's
          con. Klemp is very egotistical, however, since he needs to place
          more attention on himself and less on Twitchell by eliminating many
          of Twitchell's books. The big question is why hasn't Klemp written a
          real book like the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad III?

          Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Ingrid, Thanks for the correct spelling on John-Roger Hinkins! ... Hinkle (sic?). ... the real 972nd LEM and therefore DG was the 973rd, which makes Klump
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 5, 2005
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            Hi Ingrid,
            Thanks for the correct spelling on John-Roger Hinkins!

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
            <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
            > Hello Prometheus,


            >>***Yes, it does stink! But, let's also not forget John Rogers
            Hinkle (sic?).

            > John Roger Hinkins, Prometheus! :-)

            >>*** Old JR started his scam before DG became LEM so maybe he's
            the real 972nd LEM and therefore DG was the 973rd, which makes Klump
            the 974th and Mikey the 975th Living Eck-in-Crap Master (LEM)! Or,
            is GF the 975th and Mikey the 976th?

            > Don't, Prometheus! My head starts spinning ... :-) I'm really
            trying to follow who is what, and in which order! Seems too much for
            me!

            *****Yes, it could really become confusing if any of it was true!
            But it snot! LOL!


            >>*** p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
            about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
            least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
            guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
            freedom without the fear of retaliation!

            > After years of suppressing those "negative" feelings it's good to
            vent from time to time - but, dear Eckies, this is only a part of
            our new life - mostly we're out enjoying life as it is, and enjoying
            the love and protection that are always there as well.

            *****Yes, I have a friend (a former ESA) who read Ford's book after
            I had told her of it. She left Eckankar and then had a plane flight
            where smoke came into the plane's cabin! She did not chant HU or
            anything like that. She just knew that she would be okay, and she
            was! Her plane was not even late or diverted to another airport.
            This must have been quite the test for her to prove to herself that
            she was/is her own Master and that she is protected by SPIRIT (not
            Eck).

            >>*** Let's face it... all of you have to watch what you say... can
            you talk about Ford, or what is mentioned on these sites by former
            Eckists... of course Not! Why? Because you can lose that next
            initiation or position or even be put back to a 1st like Graham!

            > Yes there's a lot to watch ... I did it myself, without even
            noticing it! I have found out that I was, in fact, worried about my
            next initiation ... and, I hate to say it, I was a bit in awe of all
            those HIs ...

            *****I was in awe at first as well! Eventually I caught on. I
            observed behavior and realized that time as a continued member
            counted most, but that who you knew and agreed with counted more for
            that 5th, 6th and 7th! 8th and 9th inititiations are out of the
            question for most Eckists! And, (in Eckankar) there are no inner
            ones without the outer confirmation! In Reality there are No
            Initiations!

            Prometheus
          • Freefrom
            Hi Mish, I couldn t have said it better myself! Really good post. Would you mind if I reposted it in my Yahoo group, X-Eckankar: The chains of Eck . This
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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              Hi Mish,

              I couldn't have said it better myself! Really good post. Would you
              mind if I reposted it in my Yahoo group, "X-Eckankar: The chains of
              Eck". This group is much more active than mine. I have a lot of
              lerkers I think, but I believe it is important to have several anti
              eckancrap groups around, even if they have a slightly different focus
              or slant. Thanks for the post, very well put. (Prometheus too)

              Freefrom

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
              > It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
              > truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
              > Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
              > discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
              > have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
              > experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
              > The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
              > others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
              > this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
              > you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
              > feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
              > truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
              > will continue.
              >
              > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
              > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
              > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
              > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
              > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
              > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
              > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
              > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
              > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
              > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
              > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
              > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
              > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
              > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
              > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
              > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
              >
              > I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
              > which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
              > about Eckankar! Thanks!
              >
              > Mish
              >
              >
              > > Prometheus
              > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry about
              > > being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At least
              > we
              > > are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the guilt of
              > > being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
              > freedom
              > > without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you have
              > to
              > > watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
              > mentioned
              > > on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why? Because
              > you
              > > can lose that next initiation or position or even be put back to a
              > > 1st like Graham!
            • mishmisha9
              Hi, Freefrom! Sure you may post my message on your site. I do venture over there once in a while myself, so I guess I am a lurker! : ) I agree it is good to
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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                Hi, Freefrom!

                Sure you may post my message on your site. I do venture over there
                once in a while myself, so I guess I am a lurker! : ) I agree it is
                good to have several "anti eckancrap groups around!" Glad you
                participate here too!

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                <eckchains@y...> wrote:
                > Hi Mish,
                >
                > I couldn't have said it better myself! Really good post. Would you
                > mind if I reposted it in my Yahoo group, "X-Eckankar: The chains of
                > Eck". This group is much more active than mine. I have a lot of
                > lerkers I think, but I believe it is important to have several anti
                > eckancrap groups around, even if they have a slightly different
                focus
                > or slant. Thanks for the post, very well put. (Prometheus too)
                >
                > Freefrom
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                > > It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                > > truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                > > Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of
                these
                > > discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                > > have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                > > experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its
                spell.
                > > The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                > > others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                > > this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really
                draws
                > > you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                > > feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out,
                the
                > > truth will just be buried once more and the
                delusion/lies/deceptions
                > > will continue.
                > >
                > > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping
                stone
                > > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense.
                Sure,
                > > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that
                would
                > > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest
                and
                > > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                > > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we
                have
                > > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge
                Spirit
                > > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times,
                we
                > > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                > > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in
                Eckankar by
                > > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and
                lessons
                > > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                > > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and
                you
                > > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will
                truly
                > > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus,
                it is
                > > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
                > >
                > > I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express
                that
                > > which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the
                truth
                > > about Eckankar! Thanks!
                > >
                > > Mish
                > >
                > >
                > > > Prometheus
                > > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                about
                > > > being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                least
                > > we
                > > > are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the guilt
                of
                > > > being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                > > freedom
                > > > without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                have
                > > to
                > > > watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                > > mentioned
                > > > on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                Because
                > > you
                > > > can lose that next initiation or position or even be put back
                to a
                > > > 1st like Graham!
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Mish, Yes, one s own spiritual learning and understanding transcends Eckankar! Sometimes I think that Eckankar helped me to have a better understanding of
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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                  Hi Mish,

                  Yes, one's own spiritual learning and understanding transcends
                  Eckankar! Sometimes I think that Eckankar helped me to have a better
                  understanding of other Eastern spiritual knowledge, but I also
                  realize that Twitchell's creation (Eckankar) is an embellished and
                  fictional scam with a distorted but Westernized version of Sant Mat,
                  Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Surat Shabd Yoga along with a some
                  others thrown in for good measure. The real disservice comes not
                  only with the continued lies from Klemp, but with the promotion that
                  one needs a Living Master to depend upon while in a physical body
                  and an "Inner" Master even longer! A true spiritual teacher should
                  have a physical one-to-one relationship with the student and that
                  the student will (in this lifetime) become the Master! If one cannot
                  become/realize their own Mastership after "X" number of years...
                  then that path or direction is a useless distraction and one needs
                  to redirect (and deprogram) their life while there is still time!

                  Prometheus


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                  <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

                  > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                  for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                  you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                  have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                  can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                  because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                  in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                  working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                  grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                  matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                  making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                  to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                  not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                  can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                  help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                  very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
                • christel_heine2003
                  that ... cannot ... o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher. I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 6, 2005
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                    that
                    > one needs a Living Master to depend upon while in a physical body
                    > and an "Inner" Master even longer! A true spiritual teacher should
                    > have a physical one-to-one relationship with the student and that
                    > the student will (in this lifetime) become the Master! If one
                    cannot
                    > become/realize their own Mastership after "X" number of years...
                    > then that path or direction is a useless distraction and one needs
                    > to redirect (and deprogram) their life while there is still time!

                    o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.
                    I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
                    love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the eckist's,
                    how to see those, who left (in the W.N). I noticed, that I couldn't
                    accept an inner master, but surely an outer, in his writing f.e.
                    oh no, I also become the answer: in religions, there is the heart,
                    but not the mind decisive. in my case, the mind would mine, to stay
                    in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang with very lovely persons - but, in my
                    heart, no, it couldn't be, because, the mahanta was only an outer
                    master, if at all, for me.
                    but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
                    devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all what
                    I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
                    and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing to
                    my open words, to awake hearing, understanding. I didn't except:
                    accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues together.
                    what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists are not
                    able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other opinions, where
                    ever they come from. they only answers in eck-sentences. they are not
                    able, to try coming in the thougts of others, isn't so?
                    oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told my leaving behind
                    eckankar. the same we could learn in the ddr, there, these, who
                    wasn't able to agree, those are no-man!
                    my experience, is it compatible to others???
                    sorry, my english - but I hope, perhabs, you could understand, what
                    I'm meaning.
                    greetings christel

                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                    > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping
                    stone
                    > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                    > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                    > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest
                    and
                    > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                    > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we
                    have
                    > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                    > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                    > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                    > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar
                    by
                    > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and
                    lessons
                    > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                    > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and
                    you
                    > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                    > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it
                    is
                    > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
                  • Freefrom
                    Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that s OK. Figured it couldn t hurt, although I did inherit the group and there are still some
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                      Thanks,

                      I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
                      OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
                      there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
                      rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full agreement
                      with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some kind of
                      captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and if you
                      would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

                      Freefrom

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                      <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                      > Hi, Freefrom!
                      >
                      > Sure you may post my message on your site. I do venture over there
                      > once in a while myself, so I guess I am a lurker! : ) I agree it is
                      > good to have several "anti eckancrap groups around!" Glad you
                      > participate here too!
                      >
                      > Mish
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                      > <eckchains@y...> wrote:
                      > > Hi Mish,
                      > >
                      > > I couldn't have said it better myself! Really good post. Would you
                      > > mind if I reposted it in my Yahoo group, "X-Eckankar: The chains of
                      > > Eck". This group is much more active than mine. I have a lot of
                      > > lerkers I think, but I believe it is important to have several anti
                      > > eckancrap groups around, even if they have a slightly different
                      > focus
                      > > or slant. Thanks for the post, very well put. (Prometheus too)
                      > >
                      > > Freefrom
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                      > > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                      > > > It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                      > > > truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                      > > > Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of
                      > these
                      > > > discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                      > > > have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                      > > > experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its
                      > spell.
                      > > > The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                      > > > others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                      > > > this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really
                      > draws
                      > > > you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                      > > > feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out,
                      > the
                      > > > truth will just be buried once more and the
                      > delusion/lies/deceptions
                      > > > will continue.
                      > > >
                      > > > For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping
                      > stone
                      > > > for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense.
                      > Sure,
                      > > > you learned something while in there about yourself, but that
                      > would
                      > > > have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest
                      > and
                      > > > can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                      > > > because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we
                      > have
                      > > > in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge
                      > Spirit
                      > > > working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times,
                      > we
                      > > > grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                      > > > matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in
                      > Eckankar by
                      > > > making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and
                      > lessons
                      > > > to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                      > > > not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and
                      > you
                      > > > can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will
                      > truly
                      > > > help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus,
                      > it is
                      > > > very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )
                      > > >
                      > > > I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express
                      > that
                      > > > which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the
                      > truth
                      > > > about Eckankar! Thanks!
                      > > >
                      > > > Mish
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > Prometheus
                      > > > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                      > about
                      > > > > being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                      > least
                      > > > we
                      > > > > are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the guilt
                      > of
                      > > > > being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                      > > > freedom
                      > > > > without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                      > have
                      > > > to
                      > > > > watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                      > > > mentioned
                      > > > > on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                      > Because
                      > > > you
                      > > > > can lose that next initiation or position or even be put back
                      > to a
                      > > > > 1st like Graham!
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hi Christel, Thanks for the post. I do pretty much understand what you are saying. ... EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, christel_heine2003
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                        Hi Christel,
                        Thanks for the post. I do pretty much understand what you are saying.

                        --- In
                        EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "christel_heine2003"
                        <Christel-Heine@t...> wrote:

                        Prometheus: In Eckankar it seems that one needs a Living Master to
                        depend upon while in a physical body and an "Inner" Master even
                        longer! A true spiritual teacher should have a physical one-to-one
                        relationship with the student and that the student will (in this
                        lifetime) become the Master! If one cannot become/realize their own
                        Mastership after "X" number of years... then that path or direction
                        is a useless distraction and one needs to redirect (and deprogram)
                        their life while there is still time!



                        > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.
                        I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no little
                        love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the eckist's,
                        how to see those, who left (in the W.N).

                        ***I'm not sure what the W.N. is that you mentioned? Yes, there can
                        be many "teachers" in our lives but the one true Master is us! And
                        yes HK does not show much love to those Eckists who left and to
                        those who have insights and inner experiences, or dreams that
                        contradict the Eck dogma and his authority.

                        >I noticed, that I couldn't accept an inner master, but surely an
                        outer, in his writing f.e. oh no, I also become the answer: in
                        religions, there is the heart, but not the mind decisive. in my
                        case, the mind would mine, to stay in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang
                        with very lovely persons - but, in my heart, no, it couldn't be,
                        because, the mahanta was only an outer master, if at all, for me.
                        but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
                        devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all what
                        I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
                        and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
                        to my open words, to awake hearing, understanding.

                        ***Some Eckists have trouble accepting the inner master and others
                        have trouble accepting the outer master. An Eckist has to perform a
                        really good self-brainwashing to believe both! Yes, one must use
                        both the mind and the heart to determine truth. Yes, many H.I.s do
                        not truly listen, just like Klemp, and many are ESAs who are
                        supposed to be listeners! But, that's just one more distortion of
                        many. "Do as I say not as I do" seems to be the motto of Klemp and
                        company.

                        >I didn't except: accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues
                        together. what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists
                        are not able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other
                        opinions, where ever they come from. they only answers in eck-
                        sentences. they are not able, to try coming in the thougts of
                        others, isn't so? oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told
                        my leaving behind eckankar. the same we could learn in the ddr,
                        there, these, who wasn't able to agree, those are no-man! my
                        experience, is it compatible to others??? sorry, my english - but I
                        hope, perhabs, you could understand, what I'm meaning.
                        > greetings christel

                        ***Yes, Eckists do not want to hear other opinions, answer
                        questions, or listen in general! They think and assume that
                        their "truth" is the highest and most valuable. To believe as they
                        do they need to close their minds to other possibilities or there
                        would be too many questions to answer and doubt would creep in.
                        Therefore, only the discussion of Eck dogma (using Eck jargon) is
                        acceptable in most conservations. Perhaps it is best for some people
                        (it would seem) to live in ignorance and delusion if that is what
                        makes them happy. And, isn't happiness or contentment the true
                        overall goal of humanity! Anyway, it is too bad that Eckists think
                        that they are the only ones who can have valid spiritual
                        experiences. To discount the non-Eck experiences of others shows not
                        only their own inexperience, but also their small minds and hearts!

                        Prometheus
                      • ctecvie
                        Hello Christel, ... It s true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have one! It s our decision. ... little ... eckist s, ... couldn t ...
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                          Hello Christel,


                          > o, yes, so it is. one needs a living master---- no, only a teacher.

                          It's true that one needs only a teacher, and only if we wish to have
                          one! It's our decision.


                          > I talk - to the W.N. in june - that the living master hat no
                          little
                          > love to show to 'the few', who leave ekankar. he shows the
                          eckist's,
                          > how to see those, who left (in the W.N). I noticed, that I
                          couldn't
                          > accept an inner master, but surely an outer, in his writing f.e.
                          > oh no, I also become the answer: in religions, there is the
                          heart,
                          > but not the mind decisive.

                          Such a typical answer in Eckankar - if you question writings, such
                          as the last wisdom notes in your case, then the answer is pretty
                          often "you are in the mind, you need to go within to find the answer
                          for you". 'Mind' has become a real 'no-no' word in Eckankar.

                          > in my case, the mind would mine, to stay
                          > in eckankar, Hu-chant, satsang with very lovely persons - but, in
                          my
                          > heart, no, it couldn't be, because, the mahanta was only an outer
                          > master, if at all, for me.

                          Well, it's pretty obvious that your heart is right here. It's true
                          that sometimes it's hard to give up the group, the people we have
                          come to like over the years. But that's, as you point out (I believe
                          I have understood correctly), only the mind. The heart says
                          something entirely different!


                          > but, the HI, I talked: no word, that hk point of the eckists, to
                          > devalue these, who go an other way. it's not possible, that all
                          what
                          > I was wroting - it is not worth, to say any word to my opinion...
                          > and it is so depressing, that there are total blocking, no hearing
                          to
                          > my open words, to awake hearing, understanding. I didn't except:
                          > accepting!!! but eventually reading about issues together.

                          Yes, it's difficult for them to accept that there's another "truth"
                          out there than theirs. So, it's often easier to devaluate the
                          messenger (you in that case) than to admit that something's not
                          quite right with the teachings and, especially, with the master.
                          Discussion is not possible because this would be of the kal.


                          > what are this writing here? I think, the most of eckists are not
                          > able, to be offen, they aren't ready, to hear other opinions,
                          where
                          > ever they come from. they only answers in eck-sentences. they are
                          not
                          > able, to try coming in the thougts of others, isn't so?
                          > oh, it is sorry for me. no discussion, when I told my leaving
                          behind
                          > eckankar.

                          Yes, that's a pity indeed. I think all we can do with those who
                          can't accept us as we are - accept them as they are. I know that
                          this is easier said than done. I have learned quite a lot about this
                          during the last year. Soon, it will be a year that I left! Hooray! :-
                          ))

                          > the same we could learn in the ddr, there, these, who
                          > wasn't able to agree, those are no-man!

                          I have found out that it's pretty much the same mechanism in
                          oppressing countries like the German Democratic Republic - you can't
                          speak your mind, and if you do, this has serious consequences.
                          Fortunately, Eckankar isn't quite like that - but you get devaluated
                          for sure, and opinions of ex-members or members with serious doubts
                          don't count at all.

                          > my experience, is it compatible to others???

                          Oh, yes!!! For sure!! I have seen pretty much the same thing, and I
                          didn't really dare to ask too many questions. Fortunately, I could
                          discuss those issues with my husband, so I wasn't all alone.


                          > sorry, my english - but I hope, perhabs, you could understand,
                          what
                          > I'm meaning.

                          I think you made yourself quite clear! If there's something you feel
                          I didn't understand correctly, just tell me. I'm happy you posted!

                          Ingrid
                        • ctecvie
                          Hello Freefrom, Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it s good to have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                            Hello Freefrom,

                            Good that you post here, too! I agree with you and Mish - it's good to
                            have several groups about Eckankar here, with a slightly different
                            slant. I visit your group from time to time as well - so I'm a lurker,
                            too!


                            Ingrid
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hi Freefrom, Yes, it is nice being free from the chains of Eck. I saw that Mish put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 7, 2005
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                              Hi Freefrom,

                              Yes, it is nice being "free from the chains of Eck." I saw that Mish
                              put the link up (here) to your Yahoo Group site of X-Eckankar at...
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-chains-of-Eck. It is
                              good to have another anti-Eckankar site in order to have more forums
                              for discussion, and to share information and experiences.

                              Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
                              Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
                              prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
                              and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
                              Eckists.

                              Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
                              stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
                              telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.
                              It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
                              accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
                              Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
                              experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
                              Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
                              is misidentified.

                              On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                              cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                              erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                              these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                              Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                              and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                              deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                              welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                              look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                              there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                              egos or both it would seem!

                              Thanks for posting the link to this site (ESA) onto your site of X-
                              Eckankar.

                              Prometheus


                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                              <eckchains@y...> wrote:

                              > Thanks, I went ahead and added this group to my links. Hope that's
                              OK. Figured it couldn't hurt, although I did inherit the group and
                              there are still some members that I don't know much about, since they
                              rarely post. I can only assume that many of them are in full
                              agreement with whatever I say. *gg* That's Ok, at least I have some
                              kind of captive audience. I haven't announced adding this link, and
                              if you would prefer your link not be added, just let me know.

                              > Freefrom
                            • Freefrom
                              Prometheus wrote... On another note... I m amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                                Prometheus wrote...

                                On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                                cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                                erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                                these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                                Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                                and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                                deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                                welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                                look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                                there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                                egos or both it would seem!

                                Freefrom:
                                *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                                at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                                before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                                path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do with
                                family members and "friends" still being involved with eckankrap. It
                                is a little bit like an addiction and that magical thinking from
                                childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
                                to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
                                is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

                                I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is an
                                "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much what
                                the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
                                expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
                                exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
                                adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
                                as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
                                another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending or
                                to be forced.*

                                Good Fortune

                                FreeFrom
                              • ctecvie
                                ... myself ... This happens to me as well. I think it s not so much about getting completely rid of this pattern (even if it s great when that happens) but to
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom" >

                                  > *I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find
                                  myself
                                  > at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                                  > before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                                  > path away from my own common sense.

                                  This happens to me as well. I think it's not so much about getting
                                  completely rid of this pattern (even if it's great when that happens)
                                  but to be alert and notice when we are starting to go down that path
                                  again as you say.

                                  > Experiences of mine have shown me that there is some truth
                                  > to spirituality and psychic stuff that does happen, IMO. The problem
                                  > is when you attribute it all to One org like eeck! (g)

                                  Exactly.

                                  > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God is
                                  > an
                                  > "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so much
                                  >what
                                  > the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me that as ego
                                  > expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not disappear
                                  > exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter and
                                  > adaptable.

                                  Well said! I have noticed that since being out of Eckankar, I have
                                  become more flexible in my thinking as well. Except, of course, that
                                  I have come to have a rather rigid opinion of the teaching itself! :-
                                  ) But as far as the people go, those who are still with Eckankar, I
                                  have come to a better understanding as well. I can see them as
                                  seekers who need the experience - just as I needed the experience as
                                  well, at the time. Of course if discussions start, they still can get
                                  fairly heated! :-)

                                  > Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma, such
                                  > as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is just
                                  > another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need defending
                                  > or
                                  > to be forced.

                                  Truth doesn't need a belief system. The more we become aware that
                                  Eckankar is just another belief system the better and lighter it
                                  gets, in my experience.

                                  Ingrid
                                • ctecvie
                                  Hello Prometheus, ... I have made some great experiences in this field during the last year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                                    Hello Prometheus,

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                                    > Perhaps all of us can help Eckists find the courage of heart and
                                    > Soul as well as the clarity of mind to leave Eckankar. And, also
                                    > prevent those looking at Eckankar as a spiritual path from joining,
                                    > and to help in the healing process by giving support to former
                                    > Eckists.

                                    I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                                    year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                                    presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                                    anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                                    but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                                    take that much better than before and just let them be where they are.

                                    And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and after
                                    discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without blinking an
                                    eye. Those were the great experiences.

                                    > Knowing thy Self and the reasons why we joined Eckankar and then
                                    > stayed in for as long as we did (when all of the signs were there
                                    > telling us something was wrong!) is an interesting area to explore.

                                    It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                                    doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.


                                    > It mostly seemed to make sense at the time and the rest we just
                                    > accepted on faith. The "paradox" excuse helps one to overlook
                                    > Klemp's shortcomings too! Some Eckists have never had "inner"
                                    > experiences, and many had these prior to, during, and after
                                    > Eckankar! This proves that the Eckincrap-Mahanta induced-experience
                                    > is misidentified.

                                    Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once we
                                    start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                                    amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at the
                                    beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I have
                                    always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This was so
                                    before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I wake up
                                    in the morning and know what needs to be done and which decision I
                                    need to take.

                                    > On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and
                                    >other
                                    > cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                                    > erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                                    > these people are even "former" Eckists!

                                    I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists are
                                    that way - it's in the teachings.

                                    > You'd think that being in
                                    > Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                                    > and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                                    > deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                                    > welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing!

                                    Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just don't
                                    question and accept everything an authority tells you! The longer you
                                    were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its damage, and so
                                    it's not a real surprise for me that some of those who left don't
                                    have any discriminations and lack a lot of common sense! Quite
                                    natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                                    Ingrid
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hi Freefrom, I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike. Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and individual
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                                      Hi Freefrom,

                                      I enjoyed your response. We seem to think and sound much alike.
                                      Sometimes, I think that semantics just points out our uniqueness and
                                      individual experiences as we sort it all out for deeper insights
                                      into the big WHY?

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
                                      <eckchains@y...> wrote:
                                      > Prometheus wrote...
                                      On another note... I'm amazed at how some people (Eckists, and other
                                      cultists) are still constantly making assumptions, jumping to
                                      erroneous conclusions, and are still rationalizing! And, some of
                                      these people are even "former" Eckists! You'd think that being in
                                      Eckankar for 25-35 years would have taught them to be more cautious
                                      and to look (very closely) before leaping into other fires of
                                      deception! Some people, it seems, just never learn and seem to
                                      welcome their daily delusions as a way of life! Amazing! But, just
                                      look at how many of these cults and religions (sects too) are out
                                      there! They either feed on people's fears or offer food for their
                                      egos or both it would seem!

                                      > Freefrom:
                                      I agree whole heartedly, but I will have to admit that I find myself
                                      at times being drawn back into similar cultic and religious beliefs
                                      before I finally do a reality check and realize I'm going down that
                                      path away from my own common sense. I think a lot of it has to do
                                      with family members and "friends" still being involved with
                                      eckankrap. It is a little bit like an addiction and that magical
                                      thinking from childhood. Experiences of mine have shown me that
                                      there is some truth to spirituality and psychic stuff that does
                                      happen, IMO. The problem is when you attribute it all to One org
                                      like eeck! (g)

                                      ***Yes, it is only natural that one replaces one habit with another
                                      or one religion with another. There is a void that needs to be
                                      filled. However, with time, Soul fills that void with a greater
                                      knowledge of Its own idenity and purpose (happiness/contentment?).
                                      One needs to have time to get to know OneSelf when a relationship
                                      has ended. There needs to be time for healing and re-evaluation and
                                      contemplation... one needs to "chill" for awhile. New and greater
                                      experiences await those who are free of the dogma and prejudical
                                      beliefs that were mapped out and programed into us for those self-
                                      fulling expectations. And, yes there is some truth to the spiritual
                                      and psychic stuff that we and others experience, but only some of it
                                      is Truth for the individual while only some of it is Truth for us
                                      all! No one path or religion has Truth! Actually, if one would take
                                      everything written by everyone they would still not find Truth! This
                                      may sound like a given, but look at how many people hang onto the
                                      words of those they see as "experts" or "Masters!"

                                      > I have often thought that it may be closer to the truth that God
                                      is an "Athiest" or a "non believer", in that it does not matter so
                                      much what the dogma is. As far as ego goes, it has occured to me
                                      that as ego expands in a good way to be all inclusive, it may not
                                      disappear exactly, but my experience becomes more flexible, lighter
                                      and adaptable. Just my take on things. I also notice that the dogma,
                                      such as eck becomes more transparent and loses it's influence. It is
                                      just another belief system after all. IMO Truth does not need
                                      defending or to be forced.*

                                      ***Yes, "God" (IMO) IS! Therefore, how can a total awareness of all
                                      that IS lower that awareness to belief and especially to limited or
                                      inaccurate beliefs? I'm certain, however, that "God" understands our
                                      little escapades (but we don't!) since it all eventually leads to an
                                      awareness of the innate cause for why we search for happiness. It is
                                      a longing (Soul has) to return to the absolute reality of Being
                                      (ISNESS)! Religions, cults and other scams are distractions that
                                      pacify and take (trap) our minds (and egos) into "safe" and "secure"
                                      little boxes. The (a) reality is that life is more fragile than we
                                      can handle, and thus the need for the ego to protect with
                                      distractions and delusions!

                                      Prometheus
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hi Ingrid, I thought I d make a few more comments to what you have replied. ... year. I met those who wouldn t budge no matter which facts I presented them.
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 8, 2005
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                                        Hi Ingrid,

                                        I thought I'd make a few more comments to what you have replied.

                                        Ingrid wrote:
                                        > I have made some great experiences in this field during the last
                                        year. I met those who wouldn't budge no matter which facts I
                                        presented them. Naive as I was after having left, I thought that
                                        anyone facing the facts would see what I was seeing and just leave -
                                        but no! I was amazed at the reactions, and angry as well. Now I can
                                        take that much better than before and just let them be where they
                                        are.

                                        ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                                        Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                                        of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                                        Twitchell like skim! They were too afraid to do a slow read and
                                        contemplate on the information. This is what also makes them angry.
                                        They are afraid that former Eckists are right! None of them want to
                                        return to square one! Eckists are too comfortable in their delusions
                                        and want to remain in their own private little Sound Proof Dark
                                        Room. As above (with Klemp) so below (with the rank and file)!


                                        > And I have met people who had already questions & doubts, and
                                        after discussing them in our newsgroup, they just left without
                                        blinking an eye. Those were the great experiences.


                                        ***It was more difficult for me to leave. At first, I didn't want to
                                        believe what was in front of me, but I really had no choice if I
                                        wanted to remain true to myself! That has always been an important
                                        factor in being a truth seeker... and truth is so very elusive!
                                        However, lucky for me that I have usually recognized an inner
                                        guidance when It has presented Itself to me when making crucial
                                        decisions. Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                                        first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                                        the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                                        individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!


                                        > It is, indeed! And it's fascinating to look back and see when the
                                        doubts started and for how long I still lasted before leaving.

                                        ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by thinking
                                        that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I would
                                        have a break through in higher awareness. It was the "just Be"
                                        concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                                        Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                                        me for quite awhile. However, the more that I watched and listened
                                        to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                                        heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                                        true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                                        friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                                        and this gave me hope. But, it also pointed out that the initiations
                                        were not earned though higher consciousness. And, acting "as if" you
                                        are what you imagine yourself to be is a key step (delusion) to
                                        becoming a loyal chela, and with time as a paid and always current
                                        member... to those higher initiations. <LOL>


                                        > Eckankar did and does a good job in misleading the seekers. Once
                                        we start to believe, it seems we can be told anything for a certain
                                        amount of time! I didn't have inner experiences either - well, at
                                        the beginning I did have some. But then, they faded more and more. I
                                        have always been more the type to be guided by inner knowing. This
                                        was so before and after Eckankar, and also while I was a member. I
                                        wake up in the morning and know what needs to be done and which
                                        decision I need to take.

                                        ***I usually had the spectacular "inner" experiences, but I did also
                                        have the ones of "knowingness" too! Some of my wilder experiences
                                        were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                                        more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar! I had a
                                        friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                                        envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                                        afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                                        her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                                        > I think that this is a pattern that sunk in deeply. Many Eckists
                                        are that way - it's in the teachings.

                                        ***Eckists are members of a private club! They feel privileged
                                        (vain) that they have all of that loving guidance and protection and
                                        that they are so advanced spiritually! <so sad> Once an Eckist buys
                                        into this crap for 25-35 years one doesn't want to know the truth!
                                        The truth about Eckankar is a hinderance for obtaining those higher
                                        initiations, local and state positions, and speaking engagements at
                                        regional and major seminars! This is because some Eckists just like
                                        being the center of attention! And, why throw all that away along
                                        with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                                        truth? I was going to mention the donations of money, but much of
                                        that was tax deductible anyway!

                                        > Amazing indeed. But Eckankar does not teach those things. Just
                                        don't question and accept everything an authority tells you! The
                                        longer you were in Eckankar, the more this principle could do its
                                        damage, and so it's not a real surprise for me that some of those
                                        who left don't have any discriminations and lack a lot of common
                                        sense! Quite natural when you think how we all were brainwashed!

                                        ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                                        Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a Rountable
                                        Discussion, and was surprised that she wasn't asked to explain how
                                        that fit in with the Eckankar teachings. I wouldn't, as an ESA, have
                                        let that information go by so passively. So, as you can see, I was a
                                        good soldier who followed guidelines and was brain-washed to know
                                        the Mahanta's mission. But, it was tough being in the field of
                                        action. I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                                        need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                                        finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                                        Klump 20 years to write the first complete book! The even funnier
                                        thing is that many Eckists are both stubborn and individualistic,
                                        and don't follow or believe in guidelines!

                                        Prometheus
                                      • ctecvie
                                        Hello Prometheus, ... The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the same: He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn t like
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
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                                          Hello Prometheus,

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:

                                          > ***Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                                          > Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                                          > of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                                          > Twitchell like skim!

                                          The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                                          same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't like
                                          him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder why he
                                          was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                                          seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                                          was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                                          blinded by his "high status"!


                                          > ***It was more difficult for me to leave.

                                          Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if you
                                          want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a decision.
                                          There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe diseases,
                                          which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really was "the one
                                          and only true way"! Of course this is because the master himself has
                                          a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his followers just copy
                                          him because they think that makes them more like him (which it does,
                                          by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                                          But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                                          don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                                          diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                                          more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                                          in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                                          things in my opinion.

                                          > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                                          > first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                                          > the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                                          > individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                                          We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                                          > ***My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                                          >thinking
                                          > that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that eventually I
                                          >would
                                          > have a break through in higher awareness.

                                          Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                                          > It was the "just Be"
                                          > concept and those like it that always gave me hope. Of course those
                                          > Higher Initiations were awfully enticing too! They really impressed
                                          > me for quite awhile.

                                          When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was nothing
                                          new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that by being
                                          an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within oneself,
                                          so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                                          > However, the more that I watched and listened
                                          > to these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                                          > heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                                          > true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                                          > friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                                          > and this gave me hope.

                                          Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people out
                                          there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                                          > Some of my wilder experiences
                                          > were before I joined Eckankar, but I have had even
                                          > more "interesting" experiences since leaving Eckankar!

                                          Yes, exactly!

                                          > I had a
                                          > friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I sometimes
                                          > envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is even
                                          > afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to protect
                                          > her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her fears!

                                          That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to expand
                                          it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                                          > And, why throw all that away along
                                          > with all of those years of service, and initiations for the sake of
                                          > truth?

                                          I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still appreciate,
                                          in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the difference
                                          between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all are standing
                                          in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not believe it! I
                                          asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would have to wait
                                          for that, and that spiritual development for each of us was much
                                          faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                                          > ***Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                                          > Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a
                                          >rountable
                                          > Discussion

                                          The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                                          Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                                          sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                                          that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                                          > I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                                          > need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                                          > finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                                          > Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                                          But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the resas
                                          over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody wanted
                                          to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess he just
                                          couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know all of
                                          the most recent books are a rehash of things that were written before.

                                          Ingrid
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hi Ingrid, We are having some fun here aren t we! I thought I d comment some more. ... Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many of
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Aug 9, 2005
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                                            Hi Ingrid,
                                            We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                                            more.

                                            Prometheus wrote:
                                            > > >Yes, I know Eckists who have even read Confessions of a God
                                            Seeker by Ford Johnson, and still remain as members! Actually, many
                                            of those Eckists did Not really "read" the book... they just did a
                                            Twitchell like skim!

                                            Ingrid wrote:
                                            > The character assessment I heard about Ford Johnson was always the
                                            same: "He wanted more ... he had this big ego ... Well, I didn't
                                            like him anyway ... He was angry ..." yada yada yada. I just wonder
                                            why he was good enough to be used as a speaker at many international
                                            seminars during such a long time ...?? And why nobody spoke up if it
                                            was true what Eckists keep saying about him? I guess people were
                                            blinded by his "high status"!

                                            ***Yes, if Ford was so bland or egocentric or whatever the neo nay-
                                            sayers claim then why did Klemp (the Mahanta) have him front and
                                            center as an International representative for Eckankar!



                                            > > >It was more difficult for me to leave.

                                            > Understandable! It's quite a shock at first! But, as you say, if
                                            you want to remain true to yourself, then you have to make a
                                            decision. There are many Eckists who develop cancer or other severe
                                            diseases, which, in my opinion, shouldn't be the case if it really
                                            was "the one and only true way"! Of course this is because the
                                            master himself has a severe disease (physically and mentally)and his
                                            followers just copy him because they think that makes them more like
                                            him (which it does, by the way, but not as they think! :-) ).

                                            ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                            traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                            to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                            however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                            the "Prophet!"


                                            > But I strongly suspect that there is another reason as well: they
                                            don't remain true to themselves. I think that one of the reasons why
                                            diseases develop is by not being authentic and true to ourselves any
                                            more. Eckists who know that by remaining in Eckankar, they are going
                                            in the wrong direction but do nothing about it, are prone to such
                                            things in my opinion.

                                            ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased as
                                            a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                                            hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                                            that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!



                                            > > > Strange, though, that Spirit guided me to Eckankar in the
                                            first place. I guess I needed the "eckperience" in order to learn
                                            the difference between truth and deception, and to meet certain
                                            individuals for karmic reasons as well... or not!

                                            > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!

                                            ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!



                                            > > >My doubts started long ago, but I always rationalized by
                                            thinking that I didn't know as much as the H.I.s, and that
                                            eventually I would have a break through in higher awareness.

                                            > Sounds VERY familiar to me! :-) I was the same way!

                                            ***Sometimes I now look back and see how "irrational" I was! I had
                                            to talk myself into thinking I was doing the right thing at times. I
                                            was very stubborn even with mySelf!



                                            > > >It was the "just Be" concept and those like it that always gave
                                            me hope. Of course those Higher Initiations were awfully enticing
                                            too! They really impressed me for quite awhile.

                                            > When my husband became HI, he kept telling me that there was
                                            nothing new - just more rules and guidelines! He was thinking that
                                            by being an HI, one should have realized a lot of principles within
                                            oneself, so that there was no need for so many outer rules any more!

                                            ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                                            from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                                            expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                                            are to be more initiations!



                                            > > >However, the more that I watched and listened to
                                            these "leaders" the more that I noticed strange behavior. I even
                                            heard the same words and jargon repeated over and over, but saw no
                                            true substance behind the facade and attempts at real caring or
                                            friendliness. Of course, there were always exceptions to the rule
                                            and this gave me hope.

                                            > Me, too! But I think it's just that there are some great people
                                            out there - so there must be some in Eckankar, too!

                                            ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                                            easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                                            There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.



                                            > > >Some of my wilder experiences were before I joined Eckankar,
                                            but I have had even more "interesting" experiences since leaving
                                            Eckankar!

                                            > Yes, exactly!

                                            ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                                            without a mahanta to second guess Me!



                                            > > >I had a friend that only had experiences of knowingness, and I
                                            sometimes envied her. However, since she is still in Eckankar and is
                                            even afraid to read "Confessions" (too Kal for the Mahanta to
                                            protect her?) I now see that her "knowingness" is limited by her
                                            fears!

                                            > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                                            expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!

                                            ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                            strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                            see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                            is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                            violation of the Four Zoas!



                                            > > >And, why throw all that away along with all of those years of
                                            service, and initiations for the sake of truth?

                                            > I know a great guy, an HI which I appreciated (and still
                                            appreciate, in spite of everything) who told me in earnest that the
                                            difference between Eckankar and Christianity was that Eckists all
                                            are standing in line to become the next mahanta and LEM! I could not
                                            believe it! I asked him if he knew how many years each Eckist would
                                            have to wait for that, and that spiritual development for each of us
                                            was much faster than that! He stopped writing me after that one. :-))

                                            ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                                            only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                                            like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                                            those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                                            Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                                            achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!



                                            > > >Yes, some of these people were into other weird things as
                                            Eckists! I heard an Eckist talk of using Rune stones, in a rountable
                                            Discussion

                                            > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                                            Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and I'm
                                            sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                                            that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                                            ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                                            this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                                            their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                                            If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                                            countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                                            been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                                            and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised on
                                            the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                            never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                            if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                            Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!


                                            > > >I even wrote to Klemp, many years ago, telling him of the
                                            need for more guidelines and leadership trainings. I was amazed to
                                            finally see the H.I. Leadership book come out in 2001. It only took
                                            Klump 20 years to write the first complete book!

                                            > But as far as I know that book was compiled from letters to the
                                            resas over a long time! I couldn't figure out why the heck somebody
                                            wanted to train lowly initiates by using letters to resas!! I guess
                                            he just couldn't get together a whole new book, and as we well know
                                            all of the most recent books are a rehash of things that were
                                            written before.

                                            ***True, much of it was from RESA talks, meetings, and letters. Yes
                                            Klemp does drag his feet and for a "prophet" he can't see the hand
                                            writing on the wall! He just wasn't getting info to the chelas in an
                                            organized "same page" like manner through his RESAs. The whole "Eck"
                                            organization is screwed up and will just get worse as more demands
                                            and controls are exerted.

                                            Prometheus
                                          • mishmisha9
                                            Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the attitudes/beliefs of the
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Aug 10, 2005
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                                              Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                                              several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                              attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                                              say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                                              and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                                              elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                              people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                                              them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle! Secondly, it
                                              can be quite profitable for you. Since you didn't really make a
                                              success with your engineering degree or really want to work in the
                                              family business, well, why not take money from fools. It again shows
                                              your superiority and cleaverness at conning, which really is just a
                                              sport and now has become a lifestyle! LOL!

                                              It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                                              fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                                              trust your inner guidance? Well, I suppose some people in their
                                              quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                              their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                                              people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some people
                                              are always looking to others for answers that should be found within
                                              themselves?

                                              Ingrid said:
                                              >
                                              > > The new topic is sun gazing, and it's even promoted by former
                                              > Eckists! Well, you can do that if you are interested in it, and
                                              I'm sure that there will be some results if you try hard enough, but
                                              > that's not my personal favorite pastime. :-))

                                              Prometheus replied:
                                              >
                                              > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                              if this person has tried this technique? Perhaps it would increase
                                              > their brain activity and capacity to equal Twitch's... their hero!
                                              > If this method is valid then those starving to death in sunny
                                              > countries can be taught this technique and survive! But, it hasn't
                                              > been promoted and taught there has it? That's because it's a scam
                                              > and NASA states that they aren't involved with this as advertised
                                              on the scam site. So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                              > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                              > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                              > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!
                                              >
                                              >

                                              I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                                              would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                              sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                                              embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                                              Mish
                                            • ctecvie
                                              Hello Prometheus, ... We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-)) ... I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in what you trust. And if
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                                Hello Prometheus,

                                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                                                > Hi Ingrid,
                                                > We are having some fun here aren't we! I thought I'd comment some
                                                > more.

                                                We are having a lot of fun indeed!! :-))


                                                > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                                > traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to
                                                >go
                                                > to Mexico for Layatril (sic) treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                                > however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                                > the "Prophet!"

                                                I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course in
                                                what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you have
                                                to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods as
                                                well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and inform
                                                ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything that comes
                                                up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent in some
                                                fields!

                                                > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have increased
                                                >as
                                                > a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear induced mass
                                                > hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if" thinking
                                                > that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                                Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies and
                                                the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap he
                                                uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                                Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!

                                                > > We have become a lot wiser since for sure!
                                                >
                                                > ***And, we continue our learning through Our freedom!

                                                And isn't that soo great! :-)

                                                > ***Yes, this is true! Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes
                                                > from the stress of being in a leadership position and the
                                                > expectations of the hierarchy! More and more is expected if there
                                                > are to be more initiations!

                                                The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                                were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                                serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                                were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                                advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                                a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                                in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                                because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                                enough.

                                                > ***Yes, if one is too trusting (naive) they will be fooled more
                                                > easily. But, even the best of us can be conned at any given time!
                                                > There are just too many scams to keep track of it would seem.

                                                Indeed. And the best of us were fooled and are still fooled (those
                                                who are still in Eckankar).

                                                > ***Spiritual experiences now just seem more real and explainable
                                                > without a mahanta to second guess Me!

                                                True and well said! :-)

                                                > > That is true - of what use is knowingness if you don't know to
                                                > expand it accordingly and ask yourself the "right" questions?!
                                                >
                                                > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                                > strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do
                                                >they
                                                > see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                                > is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                                > violation of the Four Zoas!

                                                LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                                big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)

                                                > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks like
                                                > only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way this is
                                                > like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals would be
                                                > those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves like the
                                                > Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned with
                                                > achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                                The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization" experience!
                                                And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to have been, with
                                                all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that local magazine! But,
                                                you know, Prometheus - we women will become men in the next few
                                                lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the LEM/mahanta! :-)

                                                > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder if
                                                > this person has tried this technique?

                                                I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about experiences
                                                of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!

                                                > So, what can I say... except that some people will
                                                > never learn. Anyone who follows them is as blind as they are! And,
                                                > if one does do this sun gazing they might literally become blind!
                                                > Why should I believe a con-man that sun gazing is safe!

                                                Yes, some people will never learn. And if I want to learn sun gazing,
                                                why follow a con man? It's perhaps enough to inform myself on how to
                                                do it, and then just do it and take perhaps follow-up sessions from
                                                time to time! That is, if I really want to try it. I'm not
                                                interested - but I have the freedom to do so, if I wish to do so -
                                                and not because somebody else tells me that "this is it"!

                                                Ingrid
                                              • ctecvie
                                                Hello Mish, I can see that you love sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...) ... That s true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be fooled so
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                                  Hello Mish,

                                                  I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)

                                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                                  <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                                  > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle East
                                                  > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                                  > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I would
                                                  > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part sport
                                                  > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and it
                                                  > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                                  > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter than
                                                  > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!

                                                  That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                                  fooled so easily sometimes!

                                                  > Secondly, it
                                                  > can be quite profitable for you.

                                                  This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                                  similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that he
                                                  knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                                  talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                                  could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                                  wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed him
                                                  because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all are!

                                                  > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of being
                                                  > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not just
                                                  > trust your inner guidance?

                                                  Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be a
                                                  fool ...!! :-D

                                                  > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                                  > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                                  > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it some
                                                  > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                                  >people
                                                  > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                                  within
                                                  > themselves?

                                                  I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                                  finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes and
                                                  see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                                  enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary things
                                                  because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                                  enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in the
                                                  morning and being grateful for the day!

                                                  > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And why
                                                  > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                                  > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd be
                                                  > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )

                                                  And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                                  Ingrid
                                                • mishmisha9
                                                  Well, I think sun gazing might work for those few people whose brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would go to one of those sun
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                                    Well, I think sun gazing might work for those "few" people whose
                                                    brains only function at 3-10%! I would imagine that anyone who would
                                                    go to one of those sun gazing workshops would fall into that
                                                    category! : ) So, I guess it would seem "real" to those
                                                    already "blind" to reality. Yes, the brain is capable of being
                                                    tricked!

                                                    Mish

                                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                                                    <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
                                                    > Hello Mish,
                                                    >
                                                    > I can see that you "love" sun gazing! LOL (just kidding ...)
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                                                    > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                                                    > > Sun Gazing?? What a crock! I lived and traveled in the Middle
                                                    East
                                                    > > several years ago, and became aquainted and familiar with the
                                                    > > attitudes/beliefs of the culture and society there. First, I
                                                    would
                                                    > > say that coming up with scams, such as sun gazing, is in part
                                                    sport
                                                    > > and in part a way to sucker people. It's fun to fool people and
                                                    it
                                                    > > elevates your belief in your own superiority. If you can fool
                                                    > > people, especially westerners--why surely you are much smarter
                                                    than
                                                    > > them and it makes you feel so good, chuckle, chuckle!
                                                    >
                                                    > That's true. Westerners are seemingly so smart ... and they can be
                                                    > fooled so easily sometimes!
                                                    >
                                                    > > Secondly, it
                                                    > > can be quite profitable for you.
                                                    >
                                                    > This is so for sure! I remember how once, being on vacation in a
                                                    > similar country, a local guy talked to me and made me believe that
                                                    he
                                                    > knew me from the hotel. We went with him to his home and then were
                                                    > talked into giving a donation for something. We were lucky that we
                                                    > could get away with a relatively small sum of money. The situation
                                                    > wasn't really dangerous but could have become so. I just believed
                                                    him
                                                    > because I thought all the people there were friendly! But not all
                                                    are!
                                                    >
                                                    > > It seems, too, that some people have made a lifestyle out of
                                                    being
                                                    > > fools! Looking for truth in all the wrong places! : ) Why not
                                                    just
                                                    > > trust your inner guidance?
                                                    >
                                                    > Inner guidance ...?? ;-)) Who needs inner guidance when he can be
                                                    a
                                                    > fool ...!! :-D
                                                    >
                                                    > > Well, I suppose some people in their
                                                    > > quests for enlightenment have overlooked the basics and have let
                                                    > > their inner guidance just rather whither/fade away--or is it
                                                    some
                                                    > > people just don't possess inner guidance and that is why some
                                                    > >people
                                                    > > are always looking to others for answers that should be found
                                                    > within
                                                    > > themselves?
                                                    >
                                                    > I think that this is close to the truth - as I see it. How about
                                                    > finding enlightenment all around us? How about opening our eyes
                                                    and
                                                    > see the beauty of life? Why always do "extraordinary" things for
                                                    > enlightenment? I'm not saying that one cannot do extraordinary
                                                    things
                                                    > because they make life interesting, too. But I think that
                                                    > enlightenment can be found in doing simple things as waking up in
                                                    the
                                                    > morning and being grateful for the day!
                                                    >
                                                    > > I wouldn't want to risk injury to my eyes attempting this! And
                                                    why
                                                    > > would anyone consider that one could survive for years on just
                                                    > > sunlight and water? This sun gazing idea is really so silly--I'd
                                                    be
                                                    > > embarrassed to suggest its possibility and validity! : )
                                                    >
                                                    > And, why should it make life more enjoyable??
                                                    > Ingrid
                                                  • prometheus_973
                                                    Hi Ingrid, This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum ... traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go to Mexico
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Aug 11, 2005
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                                                      Hi Ingrid,
                                                      This is fun exposing the insanity and scam of Eckankar and Klum

                                                      > > ***One other disservice Klemp does for Eckists is to put down
                                                      traditional medicine. He even encouraged his one older brother to go
                                                      to Mexico for Layatril treatments for cancer. HK's brother,
                                                      however, was lucky in that he didn't listen to the advice of
                                                      the "Prophet!"

                                                      > I think you have to do what common sense tells you, and of course
                                                      in what you trust. And if the chosen method does not work, then you
                                                      have to change something. I am fond of alternative healing methods
                                                      as well, but I think we really need to use our discrimination and
                                                      inform ourselves as much as possible, and stay open for anything
                                                      that comes up as we go along. And traditional medicine is excellent
                                                      in some fields!


                                                      ###True, However, the Layatril treatments were proven to be a scam
                                                      to rob sick, rich and desparate Americans (mostly) of their money.
                                                      One could say that it did give some people hope, but it also
                                                      prevented many from receiving needed traditional treatment. Rod
                                                      Stewart had lytics in song mentioning Latatril but I'm not sure if
                                                      it was "Better off Dead" or "Foolish Behavior?"



                                                      > > ***Yes, and I'm sure that psycho-somatic illnesses have
                                                      increased as a result of self-fulling prophecies due to the fear
                                                      induced mass hypnosis of trying to be Co-Workers through the "as if"
                                                      thinking that they are taking on Karma for the Mahanta!

                                                      > Yes, exactly. One should remember the self-fulfilling prophecies
                                                      and the mass hypnosis to help the mahanta with our karma! What crap
                                                      he uses to explain his mental (and now physical as well) disorders!!
                                                      Incredible that people can fall for it, but so it is!



                                                      ###Yes, and the Youths in Eck are being brainwashed with this same
                                                      crap! What will happen to them, I wonder, when they come out of the
                                                      fog and realize the truth when seeing the lies?



                                                      > > ***Some of the illnesses that H.I.s have comes from the stress
                                                      of being in a leadership position and the expectations of the
                                                      hierarchy! More and more is expected if there are to be more
                                                      initiations!

                                                      > The big shot in our community died of cancer some years ago. There
                                                      were people who said at the time that he burned himself out by
                                                      serving the eck. I think they were right - not quite in the way they
                                                      were thinking, but right anyway! His wife is still alive and gives
                                                      advice for many in the area. Not long ago, she denied that there was
                                                      a computer system for initiations, even if HK himself mentions that
                                                      in one of the books for HIs! I didn't like the couple too much
                                                      because they seemed too "sweet" for me, but I didn't know them well
                                                      enough.


                                                      ### Yes, some H.I.s don't want to accept the truth about the
                                                      computer generated pink slips for initiation either! It takes away
                                                      from the magic and mystical imaginings and masks the deception of
                                                      the fraud. Yes, I also know what you mean by people acting
                                                      too "sweet." I knew a RESA who would give Eckists a hug and then
                                                      say, "I love you!" This was her "thing" for awhile, and it seemed
                                                      quite inappropriate and over the top! It caught people off guard and
                                                      was something only a "RESA" could get away with. No one else could
                                                      or would do this, because then those special words would
                                                      (eventually) have no meaning or value if said so casually and
                                                      recklessly.



                                                      > > ***Yes, and this fear that Eckists have of Ford's book is rather
                                                      strange and contradicts the dogma of Mahanta protection. Or, do they
                                                      see the reading of this book in the same way as smoking or drinking
                                                      is seen? However, I don't believe that reading it would be in
                                                      violation of the Four Zoas!

                                                      > LOL!! But you know, there's kind of a fifth zoa - negativity, a
                                                      big "no-no" in Eckankar as well! :-)


                                                      ### Yes, funny how the truth can become negative when it is not
                                                      their truth, or when they (Eckists) are not ready to hear it!



                                                      > > ***Actually, women can't become the LEM/Mahanta and it looks
                                                      like only a few males can within a normal lifetime! So, in a way
                                                      this is like the Catholic Church and the Pope while the Cardinals
                                                      would be those (male) 7th and 8th initiates positioning themselves
                                                      like the Klumpster did! I think that most Eckists are more concerned
                                                      with achieving God Realization, if they can only act nutty enough!

                                                      > The nuttier the better - look at HK's "god realization"
                                                      experience! And Paul who was "a master in training" ... seems to
                                                      have been, with all his strange "I have spoken" articles in that
                                                      local magazine! But, you know, Prometheus - we women will become men
                                                      in the next few lifetimes, in order to be eligible as the
                                                      LEM/mahanta! :-)


                                                      ### Yes, that's the Catch-22 of the scam! I guess that one or two
                                                      Catholic women (living today) can become the Pope in their next or
                                                      some other futuristic incarnation! What are the odds?



                                                      > > ***Yes, some people are extremely gullible and foolish! I wonder
                                                      if this person has tried this technique? <Sun Gazing>

                                                      > I don't think so - those people just talk and tell about
                                                      experiences of others! But, I'm not surprised - HK does the same!


                                                      ### Right, I doubt if this person has done any Sun Gazing on her
                                                      own, but she is of that mind set to try anything and everything
                                                      others have to offer. Too bad that she doesn't have more Self-
                                                      confidence in her own Self by now.

                                                      Prometheus
                                                    • mishmisha9
                                                      Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar sites
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Mar 31, 2006
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                                                        Hi, Everyone!

                                                        This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                                        the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                                        sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                                        mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                                        you enjoy!

                                                        *********************************
                                                        It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                                        truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                                        Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                                        discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                                        have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                                        experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                                        The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                                        others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                                        this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                                        you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                                        feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                                        truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                                        will continue.

                                                        For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                                        for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                                        you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                                        have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                                        can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                                        because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                                        in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                                        working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                                        grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                                        matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                                        making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                                        to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                                        not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                                        can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                                        help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                                        very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                                        I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                                        which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                                        about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                                        Mish

                                                        >
                                                        > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                                        > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                                        about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                                        least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                                        guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                                        freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                                        have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                                        mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                                        Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                                        back to a 1st like Graham!
                                                        >
                                                      • eyesopen444
                                                        Mishmisha9 wrote: Hi, Everyone! This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Mar 31, 2006
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Mishmisha9 wrote:

                                                          Hi, Everyone!

                                                          This is a repost from Aug. 2005. I thought I would bring it back to
                                                          the forefront because it explains the purpose (IMO) of anti-eckankar
                                                          sites such as ESA. Those who remember this post, I hope you don't
                                                          mind re-reading, and to anyone new who hasn't read it yet, I hope
                                                          you enjoy!

                                                          *********************************
                                                          It is always interesting that when you speak up about seeing the
                                                          truth or that you present a differing perspective that people--
                                                          Eckies and newly ex-Eckies--misunderstand the real purpose of these
                                                          discussions and tag us as being angry and not moving on. Well, I
                                                          have moved on, but I feel a responsibility to share my Eckankar
                                                          experiences and knowledge with others who are still under its spell.
                                                          The easiest path would be to just forget it! But what about the
                                                          others--who have doubts and questions? If you Eckies are reading
                                                          this, yes, you have doubts and questions--that is what really draws
                                                          you here! Otherwise, your faith would be so strong, you wouldn't
                                                          feel the need to protect it! : ) Plus, if we don't speak out, the
                                                          truth will just be buried once more and the delusion/lies/deceptions
                                                          will continue.

                                                          For those of you, who still view Eckankar as a nice stepping stone
                                                          for your spiritual unfoldment, well, that is really nonsense. Sure,
                                                          you learned something while in there about yourself, but that would
                                                          have happened as well without Eckankar. If you are really honest and
                                                          can see the truth, your unfoldment was at your own hand and not
                                                          because of those dumb teachings in Eckankar. The experiences we have
                                                          in living are what unfolds us! When we feel and acknowledge Spirit
                                                          working through us, especially during hard and puzzling times, we
                                                          grow more Spiritually! No master or false teaching help in these
                                                          matters. So, my advice is to quit defending your time in Eckankar by
                                                          making the excuse that there are so many valuable truths and lessons
                                                          to be found there--it's okay that you were duped, but now you're
                                                          not, so you can express yourself otherwise--you can be angry and you
                                                          can be honest! By doing so, rather than confusing, you will truly
                                                          help others to escape and even avoid the Eck experience! Plus, it is
                                                          very therapeutic, really! And fun! : )

                                                          I like this site, because it affords so much freedom to express that
                                                          which has amazed as well as annoyed us when we realized the truth
                                                          about Eckankar! Thanks!

                                                          Mish

                                                          >
                                                          > > from another post, Prometheus wrote:
                                                          > > p.s. To those Eckies out there... It's not that we are angry
                                                          about being lied to for years upon years... okay, maybe it is! At
                                                          least we are allowed to be angry and to feel emotion without the
                                                          guilt of being "Astral!" There is no shame after Eck-in-Crap... only
                                                          freedom without the fear of retaliation! Let's face it... all of you
                                                          have to watch what you say... can you talk about Ford, or what is
                                                          mentioned on these sites by former Eckists... of course Not! Why?
                                                          Because you can lose that next initiation or position or even be put
                                                          back to a 1st like Graham!
                                                          >
                                                          ######################################################################

                                                          ME:

                                                          Hi Everyone!

                                                          I'm pleased to express my reasons for reading/posting on ESA and ET.
                                                          First of all, I'm glad they exist! In all the years I spent reading
                                                          ekult books and discourses and those spiritual exercises - it seemed
                                                          to me that I got as far as I was ever going to get in ekult within the
                                                          first five years or so. I had too many other things going on in my
                                                          life to pursue another path, so I trusted ekult and repressed my
                                                          questions and doubts and hoped for the best. The thing about Spirit
                                                          (IMHO) is that It will not be content to remain on a dead-end path. It
                                                          is our spiritual nature to desire continued growth and more knowledge.
                                                          My unanswered questions and unease with ekult kept returning.

                                                          I contacted my area HI and "joined in" at a few worship services,
                                                          which turned out to be pretty bizarre. I met long time members, some
                                                          expressed self-doubt and couldn't understand why they had not achieved
                                                          a higher initiation level (this is such an effective control
                                                          technique, I'm sorry to say), others seemed almost manic with their
                                                          efforts to appear happy and sooo full of Spirit. All this did was
                                                          creep me out and I KNEW that I wasn't going to get any answers from
                                                          these people.

                                                          The next logical step in my mind was to check out the internet.<SMILE>
                                                          I quickly found these "anti-eck" sites and spent several weekends
                                                          exploring every link and site that I could find. When I first learned
                                                          the truth, I was shocked and hurt but also fascinated. I'll admit, I
                                                          was also angry! But, because of these sites, I felt the comfort of not
                                                          being alone, I enjoyed the humor shared and was able to forgive myself
                                                          for being taken in by such a scam.

                                                          I thank Prometheus, Sharon, Liz, Mish, Alf and all of the other great
                                                          posters on these sites. HUGS to you all! I don't think that I would
                                                          have worked through this as quickly or as well without your help.
                                                          THANK YOU!!

                                                          I didn't join out of anger, revenge or hatred. Quite the opposite.
                                                          I joined because I want to help those who will follow and are now
                                                          where we all once were.

                                                          I don't consider these "anti-eck" sites but rather as a source of
                                                          TRUTH. These sites would not be needed if ekult was not a sham and HK
                                                          would tell the truth. People are being hurt and balance is needed.

                                                          Thanks for listening.

                                                          Have Fun!

                                                          Kaye
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