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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Harry Contradicts His Holy Book

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  • etznab@aol.com
    In a message dated 4/28/08 11:35:54 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Perhaps along those same lines, how could there be any history (at all) for the Earth and the
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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      In a message dated 4/28/08 11:35:54 AM Central Daylight Time, jivatmananda@... writes:


      How could Decates be a Mahanta before the appearance of the
      first "historical" Mahanta? How could 2 + 2 = 5?


         Perhaps along those same lines, how could there be any
      history (at all) for the Earth and the physical universe prior to
      the beginning of the last Satya Yuga around 3,891,102 B.C.?
      The Earth is what? Close to 5 BILLION years old? How could
      that be? if the Earth & the lower planes are destroyed at the
      end of each Kali Yuga? (Maybe the numbers are off?)

         Is everything re-created just as it was before?

         Gakko was the: "ECK Master about six million years ago."
      [The Spiritual Notebook, 10th printing 1983, pp. 196-197] So,
      what Yuga did he live in? And was Venus existing prior to the
      most recent 4,320,000-year cycle?

         "A great yuga is a period of time in cosmic history which
      consists of approximately five million years. Soul lives and
      struggles in the physical and psychic worlds during these
      cycles. But at the end of each, the SUGMAD lifts those
      Souls which have not reached perfection into the Atma Lok,
      the Fifth Plane, where they sleep while IT readjusts the
      lower worlds. After several million years, the SUGMAD ends
      the cosmic cycle and places each of these sleeping Souls
      back into the lower worlds so they can once again start their
      long journey to perfection. The cycle begins once more in the
      Satya Yuga, the Golden Age, where all is peaceful and man
      lives in harmony with all nature and creatures."

      [S.K.S., Book II, p. 110, 2nd Edition 1988]

         The copyright for S.K.S. II was 1971. The copyright for The
      ECK-VIDYA, Ancient Science of Prophecy is 1972. In the 7th
      Printing, 1994 version of The ECK-VIDYA, on p. 51 appears:

      ".... Soul must struggle through each of the eras and at the
      end of this cosmic cycle It will, if It hasn't reached perfection
      and entered into the heavenly worlds, be put into a deep sleep
      or coma, lifted up into the heavenly worlds, and kept in this
      state for a duration of many years. Meanwhile the lower or
      psychic states will be destroyed and all the lower worlds now
      gone, the space left will be in silence and darkness until the
      SUGMAD decides to re-establish them again. Then those
      Souls which had been put into sleep will start their journey
      over again to reach perfection."

      *********

      [How does one reach perfection when there is always one
      more step (another step) on the path to God?]

      *********

         I suspect this is part of what happens when people "borrow"
      history. It gets transferred in the same general form. History
      based on history doesn't need to check for credibility. Data
      gets taken (relatively speaking) just as is. Mystery, mistakes,
      errors, contradictions, impossibilities and all! In other words,
      this idea of Mahayuga & Manvantara - & associated numbers
      is not unique to recorded history. However, one can add the
      numbers for the first three cycles of the four cycles and then
      subtract that from the historical date for beginning of the last
      fraction (Kali Yuga) of the 4,320,000 cycle. The date found in
      The ECK-VIDYA mentioned earlier was given as February -
      3102 B.C.

         Adding the (said to be) duration of Satya Yuga (1,728,000)
      to Treta Yuga (1,296,000) to Dwapara Yuga (864,000) gives
      3,888,000 years. Going in reverse order (back in time) adding
      3,888,000 to 3,102 B.C. gives 3,891,102 B.C.

         Somebody help me out if I'm wrong, but this is how I came
      up with a starting date (based on the "said to be" durations)
      for the most recent Satya Yuga.

         What were things like prior to 3,891,102 B.C.? In some of
      the traditions they allow for an equal period of darkness that
      takes place between the end of one Kali Yuga and the start
      of the next Satya Yuga. What is my main curiosity, however,
      (based on this paradigm) is more along the lines of: How can
      Earth - as it is in one cosmic cycle - appear to be the "same"
      Earth as in another cosmic cycle? How can it be if the Earth
      is destroyed at the end of each cosmic cycle? (Which is it?
      Destroyed or readjusted?)

         Is Earth and the lower worlds put to sleep and "taken up"
      to the heavenly worlds before being sent back? And - sent
      back to where?????

         Gotta love those symbolic history's mysteries. Not :)

         Hey, do they give a time period for Decates?

      "Decates. deh-KAH-tehz The Mahanta, The Living ECK
      Master of his time on the continent of Atlantis, in the city
      of Sar-Kurteva." [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words -
      The Eckankar Lexicon, by Harold Klemp (Copyright 1998),
      p. 45]

         Atlantis? The Atlanteans are described as the 4th Root
      Race. I didn't find a date for them, however, (not yet) in the
      written history of modern day Eckankar.

         For the Lemurians (the earlier 3rd Root Race) already I
      have illustrated some trivia / history. In one place it looks
      like Lemuria sank before around "2 million" years ago -
      before the Treta Yuga began. In another place it looks as
      though Lemuria sank only 50,000 years ago. Take a look
      for yourself and see what you think.

      http://mirrorh.com/mu.html

         The one thing that fraggles me most about ancient and
      recorded history is that the falseness and errors don't go
      away after the actual truth gets degraded over time, and
      people continue to graft that version of it onto the annals
      of history. Wrong information - taken and written (copierd)
      down over and over is still wrong information!

         Instead of taking incredible history and passing it off to
      future generations as credible, maybe the writers should
      investigate and research information for themselves first!
      Not just take anybody & everybody's word for it - who
      claim to be authorities. (BTW, Paul Twitchell wrote about
      authority - early on.)

         Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
      comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
      and copy something already existing than it is to discover
      the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
      many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
      but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
      latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?

         Personally, I like the questions about recorded history.
      It shows that people are searching for the Whole Truth.

      Etznab






      **************
      Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
      (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
    • Elizabeth
      Hi Etznab, you wrote: Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And comes in countless versions? Because it s easier to go and copy something already
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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         Hi Etznab,  you wrote:
         
          
           Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
        comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
        and copy something already existing than it is to discover
        the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
        many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
        but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
        latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?

          
        .... Personally I think this is exactly why eckankar keeps reiterating the "living in the now"  spiel.  Of course I prefer "living in the now"  myself, as opposed to dwelling in the past, or worrying about the future.  Less stress...    Living in the now for eckankar would save them a lot of grief and keep the money rolling in.  I hear there is a huge push / campaign to get the members to hand over their life insurance policies and put klempankar in their wills....  The membership numbers must be slipping again!  LOL
      • jivatmananda
        ... Do you remember playing the telephone game when you were a child? The game works like this. You get a group of people in line, one person at one end
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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          > Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
          > comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
          > and copy something already existing than it is to discover
          > the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
          > many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
          > but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
          > latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?

          Do you remember playing the telephone game when you were a child?
          The game works like this. You get a group of people in line, one
          person at one end whispers a sentence and from that pint the message
          is whispered down the line. The hilarity ensues when last person
          states the message and it turns out is completely different from
          what the person said. The telephone game shows information gets
          changes through multiple parties.

          I guess all these legends evolved the same way. Maybe there was an
          element of truth in these stories about Atlantis, but it got so
          diluted that these legends no longer have any historical value.
          It's no better than tales such as Cindarella or Snow White and the
          Seven Dwarfs.

          All these Kali Yuga tales originate from the Indian mythology and
          Eckankar didn't invent anything. It was just another player in a long
          telephone game.

          All established religions followed pretty much the same pattern
          since the beginning of recorded history, so there is definitely not
          anything new under the Sun. The Roman Empire borrowed the Greek
          mythology while merely renaming the divinities. The Christian
          religion borrowed symbols and beliefs from pagan religions.

          I guess the same game will continue in the next centuries and
          millenia.

          Jivatmananda
        • prometheus_973
          It s true that PT and HK borrowed much of this myth from other religions. This is one thing that attracts other New Age types to Eckankar. Atlantis and Lemuria
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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            It's true that PT and HK borrowed much of this
            myth from other religions. This is one thing that
            attracts other New Age types to Eckankar. Atlantis
            and Lemuria (Mu), etc. are myths that Eckankar
            believes in and shares with other New Agers, etc.

            The Yugas and Wheel of 84, etc. is more myth
            that Eckankar shares with other religions.

            It goes on and on of course! Copyrighted names
            and tweaked Leaps of Faith are the only things
            original to Eckankar. All religions are, basically,
            similar.

            Prometheus


            etznab@... wrote:
            >

            jivatmananda@... writes:
            >

            >

            [snip]
            > The copyright for S.K.S. II was 1971. The copyright for The
            > ECK-VIDYA, Ancient Science of Prophecy is 1972. In the 7th
            > Printing, 1994 version of The ECK-VIDYA, on p. 51 appears:
            >
            > ".... Soul must struggle through each of the eras and at the
            > end of this cosmic cycle It will, if It hasn't reached perfection
            > and entered into the heavenly worlds, be put into a deep sleep
            > or coma, lifted up into the heavenly worlds, and kept in this
            > state for a duration of many years. Meanwhile the lower or
            > psychic states will be destroyed and all the lower worlds now
            > gone, the space left will be in silence and darkness until the
            > SUGMAD decides to re-establish them again. Then those
            > Souls which had been put into sleep will start their journey
            > over again to reach perfection."
            >

            > I suspect this is part of what happens when people "borrow"
            > history. It gets transferred in the same general form. History
            > based on history doesn't need to check for credibility. Data
            > gets taken (relatively speaking) just as is. Mystery, mistakes,
            > errors, contradictions, impossibilities and all! In other words,
            > this idea of Mahayuga & Manvantara - & associated numbers
            > is not unique to recorded history. However, one can add the
            > numbers for the first three cycles of the four cycles and then
            > subtract that from the historical date for beginning of the last
            > fraction (Kali Yuga) of the 4,320,000 cycle. The date found in
            > The ECK-VIDYA mentioned earlier was given as February -
            > 3102 B.C.
            >
            >[snip]
            > http://mirrorh.com/mu.html
            >
            > The one thing that fraggles me most about ancient and
            > recorded history is that the falseness and errors don't go
            > away after the actual truth gets degraded over time, and
            > people continue to graft that version of it onto the annals
            > of history. Wrong information - taken and written (copierd)
            > down over and over is still wrong information!
            >
            > Instead of taking incredible history and passing it off to
            > future generations as credible, maybe the writers should
            > investigate and research information for themselves first!
            > Not just take anybody & everybody's word for it - who
            > claim to be authorities. (BTW, Paul Twitchell wrote about
            > authority - early on.)
            >
            > Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
            > comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
            > and copy something already existing than it is to discover
            > the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
            > many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
            > but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
            > latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?
            >
            > Personally, I like the questions about recorded history.
            > It shows that people are searching for the Whole Truth.
            >
            > Etznab
          • prometheus_973
            Hi jivatmanada, Welcome to the group! I thought I d bring your original post back up to the front page. It is interesting. When one compares Twitchell s and
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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              Hi jivatmanada,
              Welcome to the group! I thought I'd bring your
              original post back up to the front page.

              It is interesting. When one compares Twitchell's
              and Gross' charisma and leadership qualities to
              that of Klemp... there is a gulf as large as the
              Grand Canyon! Klemp has no outflow because
              he has no inflow! HK squeezed in through the
              cracks in the foundation of the house that Twit
              built. Klemp has said and done nothing to enlighten
              even himself regarding TRUTH. Therefore, HK is
              unqualified to lead anyone, except, those who
              share his lower (Astral) level of consciousness!

              Prometheus

              jivatmananda wrote:
              >
              > Hi everyone,
              >
              > I'm new to this group and I decided to post after a few email
              > exchanges with Prometheus. I'm starting with an edited re-post of
              > something I wrote a couple of years ago on another message board.
              > It's about Eckankar encouraging insane thinking processes, while
              > sticking to logic and reason when their down-to-earth interests are
              > involved.
              >
              > In a previous Mystic World (March 2005 – page 6), Harry wrote that
              > the first "historical" Mahanta appeared in the present Kali Yuga.
              > Here is a quote from his article:
              >
              > "So the short answer is that the Sugmad first incarnated Itself
              > as the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master in the present Kali Yuga".
              >
              > Yet the Eckankar Dictionary (page 45) states that Decates was the
              > Mahanta, the LEM on the continent of Atlantis and the Shariyat
              > provides the same information. The Shariyat also states that
              > Atlantis went down BEFORE the Kali Yuga. It supposedly went down
              > before the Copper Age that precedes the Kali Yuga (volume 2 – page
              > 114).
              >
              > How could Decates be a Mahanta before the appearance of the
              > first "historical" Mahanta? How could 2 + 2 = 5?
              >
              > Of course, some people think there is no contradiction from
              > a "higher perspective". They say we should go beyond the intellect
              > to embrace truth within apparent contradictions.
              >
              > As a matter-of-fact, you are creating a subconscious "mind brake"
              > when you convince yourself that such contradictions express the
              > truth. In other words, you are convincing yourself to never again
              > trust your common sense and you are introducing germs of insanity
              > within your own mind. You are basically telling yourself that 2 + 2
              > = 5.
              >
              > Unfortunately, it bears more consequences than what you might think
              > at first glance. Such a mind brake may create a permanent state of
              > mental fuzziness that affects your logical thinking when you need to
              > rely upon your own judgment. It's pretty much like casting a spell
              > upon yourself.
              >
              > That spell may hinder your thinking in a critical situation where
              > your well-being or someone else's well-being is involved. It may be
              > your mate or your child. Rather than facing the situation with a
              > sharp mind, you may find yourself in a state of confusion that
              > prevents you from making a logical decision.
              >
              > As someone explained me, this is what happened to Nixon and other
              > politicians who see truth as just another story line appropriate
              > only if it is appropriate for the occasion. Eventually, they lose
              > their ability to discern truth from any other story line.
              >
              > An organization that encourages such an insane thinking process is
              > indeed a bad corporate citizen. You know what I mean, don't you?
              >
              > By the way, traditional religious dogmas are not creating the same
              > mental confusion, as it's pretty much impossible to prove or
              > disprove them. They don't (usually) involve contradictions such as 2
              > + 2 = 5. You may believe that God created the world in seven days
              > and you may also believe in the resurrection of the flesh at the
              > last trumpet. There are no ways to disprove such beliefs that make
              > Christians feel good. You may therefore embrace them without
              > compromising your sanity.
              >
              > Some people refer to these blind beliefs as the opium of the people.
              > I would then say that Eckankar is more like the crack drug as it
              > involves a serious distortion of logical thinking.
              >
              > You might think that Eckankar managers totally discards logic and
              > reason, but they have quite a different perspective when they own
              > interests are involved. For example, they will jealously protect
              > their trademarks and copyrighted material. If you don't believe me,
              > you may plagiarize Harry and tell him that you got it from the
              > astral library. Do you really think he will accept your explanation?
              > I bet his lawyers will stick to down-to-earth legal considerations
              > while they sue you for plagiarism.
              >
              > The truth is that Eckankar sticks to logic and reason when it's time
              > to protect their own interests.
              >
              > As I explained my point to some Eckists, they didn't even want to
              > start a logical discussion. They told me that I was lacking respect
              > toward Eckankar and also toward religion at large. They forgot how
              > Harry was once making fun of the Christian belief in the
              > resurrection of the flesh. I remember how he was pausing between
              > each sarcastic sentence, allowing plenty of time for people to laugh
              > heartily.
              >
              > I don't know if there were Christian guests in the audience, but
              > they would have been deeply offended. In fact, there were possibly
              > Christians among the couple of security guards and hotel employees
              > working in the large meeting room, but it never stopped Harry.
              >
              > I have a spiritual exercise to suggest you. Visualize yourself at
              > this talk Harry gave in the eighties in a major hotel. Imagine
              > yourself hearing his voice as he makes fun of Christian beliefs. See
              > a security guard standing besides a pillar. See hotels employees
              > bringing water pitches on tables besides the wall. After a few
              > moments, mentally ask yourself Harry's favorites questions: "Is it
              > true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?" Just let the answer come from
              > the bottom of your heart. Then tell yourself out loud what came from
              > your inner self and write it down on a piece of paper.
              >
              > I must confess that I, too, was laughing when Harry made fun of
              > Christians, but I'm not the kind of saint he pretends to be. I
              > sometimes criticize people and make fun of them, but unlike Harry, I
              > fully assume my critical attitude. So there is absolutely no need to
              > call me "Sri" Jivatmananda although I may propose similar spiritual
              > exercises in the future. :D
              >
              > Jivatmananda
              >
              > P.S. Don't forget to do your new spiritual exercise. ;)
              >
            • jivatmananda
              Hi Prometheus, Thanks for your kind welcome! Klemp actually lives in a protected bubble where everyone say Yes Sir! to him. No one could contradict him on a
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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                Hi Prometheus,

                Thanks for your kind welcome!

                Klemp actually lives in a protected bubble where everyone say "Yes
                Sir!" to him. No one could contradict him on a major issue and not
                get fired (and possible excommunicated).

                Even the most sane and enlightened person on Earth couldn't keep
                his/her sanity and sense of discrimination after spending more than
                25 years in that protective bubble. It may be one of the reasons why
                a US president must leave after 8 years.

                Now imagine what would happen to someone who had previously
                experienced mental health problems. I guess you understand what I
                means...

                Jivatmananda

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi jivatmanada,
                > Welcome to the group! I thought I'd bring your
                > original post back up to the front page.
                >
                > It is interesting. When one compares Twitchell's
                > and Gross' charisma and leadership qualities to
                > that of Klemp... there is a gulf as large as the
                > Grand Canyon! Klemp has no outflow because
                > he has no inflow! HK squeezed in through the
                > cracks in the foundation of the house that Twit
                > built. Klemp has said and done nothing to enlighten
                > even himself regarding TRUTH. Therefore, HK is
                > unqualified to lead anyone, except, those who
                > share his lower (Astral) level of consciousness!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
              • mishmisha9
                Hello, Jivat, Etznab and All! First, Jivat (hope you don t mind I ve shortened your name), welcome to ESA. I ve enjoyed your posts. And Etznab, nice that you
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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                  Hello, Jivat, Etznab and All!

                  First, Jivat (hope you don't mind I've shortened your name), welcome
                  to ESA. I've enjoyed your posts. And Etznab, nice that you share so
                  much of your research and thoughts here. : )

                  I guess one could say there is nothing new under the sun in
                  regards to religions, the old and the "new!" The interesting thing
                  that we need to remember is that for a con to work or for a leader
                  to gain a following, truth and fiction have to be mixed. Many
                  people will look for truth to validate what is being sold. The
                  mistake is believing that finding a kernal of truth in a religious
                  teaching makes it valid or truthful in all portions of it. Or that
                  the obvious duplicity is okay because that one kernal of truth
                  is more important than all the lies. This IMO is flawed rationale!

                  I think the best thing to happen to eckankar is Harold Klemp. He
                  is such a ridiculous head of church that Saturday Night Live could
                  create some good skits, or even better, just imagine what Steven
                  Cobert would do with this self-proclaimed godman, "the highest
                  consciousness known to mankind" delusional fool! LOL! It sure is
                  fun to poke fun at him, isn't it? And doesn't Klemp make eckankar
                  look dumb and silly??

                  Anyway, why do we need religion? Why do we cluster in groups
                  trying to find a stairway to heaven? I suppose much of it has to
                  do with the fear of the unknown and the safety in numbers. For
                  the con men like Klemp, there is the need to be important and the
                  need to control other people and to feed off their money and
                  devotion.

                  I'm reading an interesting book called "Under the Banner of Heaven"
                  by Jon Krakauer. It is about the extreme religious beliefs of fundamental
                  Mormons and how it has evolved to present day. I probably shouldn't
                  use the word "evolve" because evolution really speaks of advancement
                  through the ages. Fundamentalism stays in the dark ages and refuses
                  to grow and improve beyond growing in membership.

                  I'm waiting for Klemp's next book--I so enjoyed reading "Those
                  Wonderful ECK Masters," published in 2005. Seems that Klemp is
                  slow writing these days--is he lazy or befuddled as to how to
                  continue his lies and schemes?? I'm sure he is still wanting to put
                  Joan up there as Co-L.E.M. I'd almost bet he's hell bent on doing so
                  because he has to prove that he can do it and not be thwarted by
                  critical thinking individuals who can see through his cons! LOL!

                  With eckankar under Klemp the con has evolved while individual
                  spirituality has stagnated! Too bad, so sad! : )

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jivatmananda"
                  <jivatmananda@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
                  > > comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
                  > > and copy something already existing than it is to discover
                  > > the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
                  > > many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
                  > > but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
                  > > latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?
                  >
                  > Do you remember playing the telephone game when you were a child?
                  > The game works like this. You get a group of people in line, one
                  > person at one end whispers a sentence and from that pint the message
                  > is whispered down the line. The hilarity ensues when last person
                  > states the message and it turns out is completely different from
                  > what the person said. The telephone game shows information gets
                  > changes through multiple parties.
                  >
                  > I guess all these legends evolved the same way. Maybe there was an
                  > element of truth in these stories about Atlantis, but it got so
                  > diluted that these legends no longer have any historical value.
                  > It's no better than tales such as Cindarella or Snow White and the
                  > Seven Dwarfs.
                  >
                  > All these Kali Yuga tales originate from the Indian mythology and
                  > Eckankar didn't invent anything. It was just another player in a long
                  > telephone game.
                  >
                  > All established religions followed pretty much the same pattern
                  > since the beginning of recorded history, so there is definitely not
                  > anything new under the Sun. The Roman Empire borrowed the Greek
                  > mythology while merely renaming the divinities. The Christian
                  > religion borrowed symbols and beliefs from pagan religions.
                  >
                  > I guess the same game will continue in the next centuries and
                  > millenia.
                  >
                  > Jivatmananda
                  >
                • jivatmananda
                  Hello Mish, I agree that kernals of truth are not enough to make a religious teaching valid. Last night, I was contemplating upon the main ingredients of most
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                    Hello Mish,

                    I agree that kernals of truth are not enough to make a religious
                    teaching valid. Last night, I was contemplating upon the main
                    ingredients of most religions:

                    1. Borrowed elements from other religions.
                    2. Inner experiences of the founders/leaders.
                    3. Punishment and/or exclusion of people with inner experiences or
                    opinions that contradict those of the founders/leaders.

                    The punishment or exclusion may include blame, social disapproval,
                    several forms of harassment, excommunication or even burning
                    heretics at the stake (as it happened in the Middle Ages).

                    There is of course the business side, but I'm currently focusing
                    upon those elements that are specific to religion. I'm not denying
                    that religion is also about control and money.

                    By the way, I think that kernels of truth can be found both in the
                    inner experiences of the founders/leaders, borrowed elements from
                    other religions, and the inner experiences of those who disagree
                    with the founders/leaders.

                    Jivatmananda



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                    <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello, Jivat, Etznab and All!
                    >
                    > First, Jivat (hope you don't mind I've shortened your name),
                    welcome
                    > to ESA. I've enjoyed your posts. And Etznab, nice that you share so
                    > much of your research and thoughts here. : )
                    >
                    > I guess one could say there is nothing new under the sun in
                    > regards to religions, the old and the "new!" The interesting thing
                    > that we need to remember is that for a con to work or for a leader
                    > to gain a following, truth and fiction have to be mixed. Many
                    > people will look for truth to validate what is being sold. The
                    > mistake is believing that finding a kernal of truth in a religious
                    > teaching makes it valid or truthful in all portions of it. Or that
                    > the obvious duplicity is okay because that one kernal of truth
                    > is more important than all the lies. This IMO is flawed rationale!
                    >
                    > I think the best thing to happen to eckankar is Harold Klemp. He
                    > is such a ridiculous head of church that Saturday Night Live could
                    > create some good skits, or even better, just imagine what Steven
                    > Cobert would do with this self-proclaimed godman, "the highest
                    > consciousness known to mankind" delusional fool! LOL! It sure is
                    > fun to poke fun at him, isn't it? And doesn't Klemp make eckankar
                    > look dumb and silly??
                    >
                    > Anyway, why do we need religion? Why do we cluster in groups
                    > trying to find a stairway to heaven? I suppose much of it has to
                    > do with the fear of the unknown and the safety in numbers. For
                    > the con men like Klemp, there is the need to be important and the
                    > need to control other people and to feed off their money and
                    > devotion.
                    >
                    > I'm reading an interesting book called "Under the Banner of Heaven"
                    > by Jon Krakauer. It is about the extreme religious beliefs of
                    fundamental
                    > Mormons and how it has evolved to present day. I probably shouldn't
                    > use the word "evolve" because evolution really speaks of
                    advancement
                    > through the ages. Fundamentalism stays in the dark ages and refuses
                    > to grow and improve beyond growing in membership.
                    >
                    > I'm waiting for Klemp's next book--I so enjoyed reading "Those
                    > Wonderful ECK Masters," published in 2005. Seems that Klemp is
                    > slow writing these days--is he lazy or befuddled as to how to
                    > continue his lies and schemes?? I'm sure he is still wanting to put
                    > Joan up there as Co-L.E.M. I'd almost bet he's hell bent on doing
                    so
                    > because he has to prove that he can do it and not be thwarted by
                    > critical thinking individuals who can see through his cons! LOL!
                    >
                    > With eckankar under Klemp the con has evolved while individual
                    > spirituality has stagnated! Too bad, so sad! : )
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, I would, also, say that each early government/ country of the world encouraged a certain religious thought (religion) as a means to control the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                      Hello All,
                      I would, also, say that each early government/
                      country of the world encouraged a certain religious
                      thought (religion) as a means to control the populace.
                      Religions are still used today, by religious leaders,
                      governments, and politicians to placate people and
                      to distract them and to give them hope while they
                      are led down a primrose lane of delusion and, even,
                      sometimes to their destruction by these same self-
                      centered power brokers.

                      Many religions first began with non-scientific
                      explanations for the cosmos. There was Ra the
                      Sun God, and Zeus (or was it Apollo?) driving a
                      Golden Chariot across the sky. Everything about
                      life and nature was explained away with a little
                      help from real, distorted, and imagined observation.
                      People's lives in the past and today become fragmented
                      and fractioned as they try to pursue opportunities
                      in creative innovation in every sphere of human action.

                      The Mosaic conception of God was particularly relevant
                      to twentieth century need. First, the Abrahamic "old man
                      in the sky" is quite unbelievable in this scientific age.
                      He is a "theistic" God, being "out there" in space, a God
                      who "has a world." The Mosaic God without finite form
                      is everywhere present. This is "panentheism." It means
                      God is in (en) everything, and everything which exists
                      is "in" God. Therefore, the divine center of meaning
                      is to be found within. The God within must be a kind
                      of World Spirit which wears the universe as its body.

                      Tillich argued that God was not the Creator of the
                      universe, because that implied that creation was an
                      activity confined to some remote time in the past,
                      but that God was creativity, implying that the creating
                      goes on in every present moment and that God is in
                      every innovative moment in human endeavor.

                      Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man
                      can see where and how religion has progressed and
                      increased its hold on people and has changed throughout
                      world history. Religion can be a complicated topic with
                      one's personal beliefs and experiences mixed in with
                      those of others. Religion includes myth, superstition,
                      tradition and a hodge-podge of other things according
                      to culture.

                      The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                      personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                      The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                      and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                      hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                      political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!

                      Prometheus




                      jivatmananda wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Mish,
                      >
                      > I agree that kernals of truth are not enough to make a religious
                      > teaching valid. Last night, I was contemplating upon the main
                      > ingredients of most religions:
                      >
                      > 1. Borrowed elements from other religions.
                      > 2. Inner experiences of the founders/leaders.
                      > 3. Punishment and/or exclusion of people with inner experiences or
                      > opinions that contradict those of the founders/leaders.
                      >
                      > The punishment or exclusion may include blame, social disapproval,
                      > several forms of harassment, excommunication or even burning
                      > heretics at the stake (as it happened in the Middle Ages).
                      >
                      > There is of course the business side, but I'm currently focusing
                      > upon those elements that are specific to religion. I'm not denying
                      > that religion is also about control and money.
                      >
                      > By the way, I think that kernels of truth can be found both in the
                      > inner experiences of the founders/leaders, borrowed elements from
                      > other religions, and the inner experiences of those who disagree
                      > with the founders/leaders.
                      >
                      > Jivatmananda
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                      > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello, Jivat, Etznab and All!
                      > >
                      > > First, Jivat (hope you don't mind I've shortened your name),
                      > welcome
                      > > to ESA. I've enjoyed your posts. And Etznab, nice that you share so
                      > > much of your research and thoughts here. : )
                      > >
                      > > I guess one could say there is nothing new under the sun in
                      > > regards to religions, the old and the "new!" The interesting thing
                      > > that we need to remember is that for a con to work or for a leader
                      > > to gain a following, truth and fiction have to be mixed. Many
                      > > people will look for truth to validate what is being sold. The
                      > > mistake is believing that finding a kernal of truth in a religious
                      > > teaching makes it valid or truthful in all portions of it. Or that
                      > > the obvious duplicity is okay because that one kernal of truth
                      > > is more important than all the lies. This IMO is flawed rationale!
                      > >
                      > > I think the best thing to happen to eckankar is Harold Klemp. He
                      > > is such a ridiculous head of church that Saturday Night Live could
                      > > create some good skits, or even better, just imagine what Steven
                      > > Cobert would do with this self-proclaimed godman, "the highest
                      > > consciousness known to mankind" delusional fool! LOL! It sure is
                      > > fun to poke fun at him, isn't it? And doesn't Klemp make eckankar
                      > > look dumb and silly??
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, why do we need religion? Why do we cluster in groups
                      > > trying to find a stairway to heaven? I suppose much of it has to
                      > > do with the fear of the unknown and the safety in numbers. For
                      > > the con men like Klemp, there is the need to be important and the
                      > > need to control other people and to feed off their money and
                      > > devotion.
                      > >
                      > > I'm reading an interesting book called "Under the Banner of Heaven"
                      > > by Jon Krakauer. It is about the extreme religious beliefs of
                      > fundamental
                      > > Mormons and how it has evolved to present day. I probably shouldn't
                      > > use the word "evolve" because evolution really speaks of
                      > advancement
                      > > through the ages. Fundamentalism stays in the dark ages and refuses
                      > > to grow and improve beyond growing in membership.
                      > >
                      > > I'm waiting for Klemp's next book--I so enjoyed reading "Those
                      > > Wonderful ECK Masters," published in 2005. Seems that Klemp is
                      > > slow writing these days--is he lazy or befuddled as to how to
                      > > continue his lies and schemes?? I'm sure he is still wanting to put
                      > > Joan up there as Co-L.E.M. I'd almost bet he's hell bent on doing
                      > so
                      > > because he has to prove that he can do it and not be thwarted by
                      > > critical thinking individuals who can see through his cons! LOL!
                      > >
                      > > With eckankar under Klemp the con has evolved while individual
                      > > spirituality has stagnated! Too bad, so sad! : )
                      > >
                      > > Mish
                      > >
                      >
                    • Elizabeth
                      Prometheus wrote: Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man can see where and how religion has progressed and increased its hold on people and has
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                        Prometheus wrote:
                         
                        Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man
                        can see where and how religion has progressed and
                        increased its hold on people and has changed throughout
                        world history. Religion can be a complicated topic with
                        one's personal beliefs and experiences mixed in with
                        those of others. Religion includes myth, superstition,
                        tradition and a hodge-podge of other things according
                        to culture.
                         
                        The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                        personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                        The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                        and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                        hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                        political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!
                         
                         
                        ..... One of my siblings took a "History Of Religions" class in college a couple years ago.  This was when she actually did some back ground research on eckankar.  For those of you not familiar with our family history as eck members;   I was a member of eckankar from the age of 12.   Spent a little over 30 yrs. as a member.  Our entire family joined late 1971, to include grandparents, parents and my 3 siblings and myself.  I used to boast about coming from a four generation family of eckists....   (rolling my eyes!)
                         
                        I left the teachings almost 5 yrs ago, but it took my sister longer to find her way out.  The class she took, as well as her instructor, pushed her to research eckankar not only from a members perspective, but with a neutral look into it's history.  When she started looking for info on the net, that was when she actually realized there was more to my leaving the path and being disowned by my entire family because of it, than she understood.  I was the black sheep of the family and was warned not to communicate with me or listen to anything I had to say!    What was more upsetting to them the most was the fact that they always thought of me as the one more DEVOTED and unlikely to leave in the first place!  So for me to leave, rocked them to their core, as it did many eck members in my local area and on the Internet / eck chat groups. 
                         
                        I completely agree with Prometheus!  The bottom line is,  I am my own personal and private religion and leader.... I need no middle man to have connection and experiences with spirit!  No one needs to guide me, save me, or take me to the next level of the god worlds.  No one is higher, better or more spiritual than the next guy! 
                         
                        I'm really enjoying the current conversations taking place here.  And of course Etznab you impress me with each new topic you bring to the group.
                         
                        Liz 
                      • jivatmananda
                        I agree with Prometheus who wrote that all religions first began with non-scientific explanations for the cosmos. You mentioned Ra the Sun God (or Apollo).
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                          I agree with Prometheus who wrote that all religions first began with
                          non-scientific explanations for the cosmos. You mentioned Ra the Sun
                          God (or Apollo). People saw the Sun as a higher power and they tried
                          to establish a relationship with it. The same thing happened with
                          natural phenomenas such as the rain or the wind.

                          With the passing millenia, societies grew more sophisticated and so
                          did religions. Yet they are the same primitive attempts to come up
                          with explanations for the cosmos. I'm not saying there are no
                          "higher" or "invisible" forces at work. I'm just saying that we don't
                          need religions nor middle men to deal with them.

                          Jivat

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > I would, also, say that each early government/
                          > country of the world encouraged a certain religious
                          > thought (religion) as a means to control the populace.
                          > Religions are still used today, by religious leaders,
                          > governments, and politicians to placate people and
                          > to distract them and to give them hope while they
                          > are led down a primrose lane of delusion and, even,
                          > sometimes to their destruction by these same self-
                          > centered power brokers.
                          >
                          > Many religions first began with non-scientific
                          > explanations for the cosmos. There was Ra the
                          > Sun God, and Zeus (or was it Apollo?) driving a
                          > Golden Chariot across the sky. Everything about
                          > life and nature was explained away with a little
                          > help from real, distorted, and imagined observation.
                          > People's lives in the past and today become fragmented
                          > and fractioned as they try to pursue opportunities
                          > in creative innovation in every sphere of human action.
                          >
                          > The Mosaic conception of God was particularly relevant
                          > to twentieth century need. First, the Abrahamic "old man
                          > in the sky" is quite unbelievable in this scientific age.
                          > He is a "theistic" God, being "out there" in space, a God
                          > who "has a world." The Mosaic God without finite form
                          > is everywhere present. This is "panentheism." It means
                          > God is in (en) everything, and everything which exists
                          > is "in" God. Therefore, the divine center of meaning
                          > is to be found within. The God within must be a kind
                          > of World Spirit which wears the universe as its body.
                          >
                          > Tillich argued that God was not the Creator of the
                          > universe, because that implied that creation was an
                          > activity confined to some remote time in the past,
                          > but that God was creativity, implying that the creating
                          > goes on in every present moment and that God is in
                          > every innovative moment in human endeavor.
                          >
                          > Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man
                          > can see where and how religion has progressed and
                          > increased its hold on people and has changed throughout
                          > world history. Religion can be a complicated topic with
                          > one's personal beliefs and experiences mixed in with
                          > those of others. Religion includes myth, superstition,
                          > tradition and a hodge-podge of other things according
                          > to culture.
                          >
                          > The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                          > personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                          > The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                          > and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                          > hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                          > political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          Great point about the telephone game, Jivatmananda. IMO, it s generally the people in power who s versions of history take center stage. Kinda like how money
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                               Great point about the telephone game, Jivatmananda.

                               IMO, it's generally the people in power who's versions
                            of history take center stage. Kinda like how money and
                            politics today "own" most of the major media.

                               The truth is out there, IMO. It might not be as popular
                            as the "party" line though.

                            Etznab

                              









                            **************
                            Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
                            (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            In a message dated 4/28/08 11:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Good point Mish. Etznab ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                              In a message dated 4/28/08 11:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, mishmisha9@... writes:


                              The
                              mistake is believing that finding a kernal of truth in a religious
                              teaching makes it valid or truthful in all portions of it. Or that
                              the obvious duplicity is okay because that one kernal of truth
                              is more important than all the lies. This IMO is flawed rationale!


                                 Good point Mish.

                              Etznab



                              **************
                              Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
                              (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              In a message dated 4/29/08 11:40:16 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Bravo :) :) :) Etznab ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                In a message dated 4/29/08 11:40:16 AM Central Daylight Time, prometheus_973@... writes:


                                The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                                personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                                The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                                and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                                hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                                political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!


                                   Bravo :) :) :)

                                Etznab



                                **************
                                Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
                                (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                Liz, Grateful for the history and experience you share. Some of the best people that I have ever known have left the Eckankar organization. I still think of
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                  Liz,

                                     Grateful for the history and experience you share. Some of
                                  the best people that I have ever known have left the Eckankar
                                  organization. I still think of them as some of the best people I
                                  know.

                                  Etznab



                                  **************
                                  Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
                                  (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
                                • jivatmananda
                                  Etznab, you just need to look at Eckankar to see how right you are. They almost deleted 10 years of their short history and rewrote what they didn t delete
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                    Etznab, you just need to look at Eckankar to see how right you are.
                                    They almost deleted 10 years of their short history and rewrote what
                                    they didn't delete from that period of time.

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                    IMO, it's generally the people in power who's versions
                                    > of history take center stage. Kinda like how money and
                                    > politics today "own" most of the major media.
                                    >
                                  • mishmisha9
                                    Liz wrote: One of my siblings took a History Of Religions class in college a couple years ago. This was when she actually did some back ground research on
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 30, 2008
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                                      Liz wrote:
                                      "One of my siblings took a "History Of Religions" class in college
                                      a couple years ago. This was when she actually did some back
                                      ground research on eckankar. (snip)

                                      I left the teachings almost 5 yrs ago, but it took my sister longer
                                      to find her way out. The class she took, as well as her instructor,
                                      pushed her to research eckankar not only from a members
                                      perspective, but with a neutral look into it's history. When she
                                      started looking for info on the net, that was when she actually
                                      realized there was more to my leaving the path and being disowned
                                      by my entire family because of it, than she understood."

                                      Liz,
                                      This is a good point about studying the history of any religion. It
                                      requires a neutral look in order to understand. Several months ago I posted
                                      about the enjoyable interviews that Bill Moyers did on his PBS program discussing
                                      Faith and Reason with individuals of varying views on religion. It was a really good
                                      program because it highlighted how and why there is so much conflict between
                                      religious believers and critical thinkers. The biggest flaw with religion is
                                      that those who are the leaders of a religious group require the obedience of
                                      non-thinking. Religions for the most part depend on faith--hence, so many
                                      prayers are sent out. But for the most part followers are being preyed upon!

                                      Another point is that it seems sinful to criticize a religion for its practices.
                                      For that reason few seem concerned enough to truly protect the little
                                      children (young girls) who were removed from that fundamentalist cult in Texas.
                                      Some professionals believe returning them to their families is in the children's
                                      best interest, along with some educating! Yeah, right! That is a very insidious
                                      cult group whose main doctrine is to make girls/women into sex slaves.
                                      Which is another point about man-made religions: men generally use
                                      church doctrine to manipulate and control women. Why do women fall this?

                                      Yes, I know there are many female RESAs in eckankar--but that is really
                                      just like putting women in the kitchen to cook while the men are
                                      watching the Super Bowl! The RESAs are doing Klemp's work and
                                      cleaning up after him! Other than Joan, the H.I. eck women without a
                                      doubt have hit the glass ceiling! To be greater, they have to come
                                      back to this life--but need to choose a male body next time! LOL!

                                      Mish

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
                                      <ewickings@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man
                                      > can see where and how religion has progressed and
                                      > increased its hold on people and has changed throughout
                                      > world history. Religion can be a complicated topic with
                                      > one's personal beliefs and experiences mixed in with
                                      > those of others. Religion includes myth, superstition,
                                      > tradition and a hodge-podge of other things according
                                      > to culture.
                                      >
                                      > The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                                      > personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                                      > The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                                      > and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                                      > hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                                      > political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ..... One of my siblings took a "History Of Religions" class in college a
                                      > couple years ago. This was when she actually did some back ground research
                                      > on eckankar. For those of you not familiar with our family history as eck
                                      > members; I was a member of eckankar from the age of 12. Spent a little
                                      > over 30 yrs. as a member. Our entire family joined late 1971, to include
                                      > grandparents, parents and my 3 siblings and myself. I used to boast about
                                      > coming from a four generation family of eckists.... (rolling my eyes!)
                                      >
                                      > I left the teachings almost 5 yrs ago, but it took my sister longer to find
                                      > her way out. The class she took, as well as her instructor, pushed her to
                                      > research eckankar not only from a members perspective, but with a neutral
                                      > look into it's history. When she started looking for info on the net, that
                                      > was when she actually realized there was more to my leaving the path and
                                      > being disowned by my entire family because of it, than she understood. I
                                      > was the black sheep of the family and was warned not to communicate with me
                                      > or listen to anything I had to say! What was more upsetting to them the
                                      > most was the fact that they always thought of me as the one more DEVOTED and
                                      > unlikely to leave in the first place! So for me to leave, rocked them to
                                      > their core, as it did many eck members in my local area and on the Internet
                                      > / eck chat groups.
                                      >
                                      > I completely agree with Prometheus! The bottom line is, I am my own
                                      > personal and private religion and leader.... I need no middle man to have
                                      > connection and experiences with spirit! No one needs to guide me, save me,
                                      > or take me to the next level of the god worlds. No one is higher, better or
                                      > more spiritual than the next guy!
                                      >
                                      > I'm really enjoying the current conversations taking place here. And of
                                      > course Etznab you impress me with each new topic you bring to the group.
                                      >
                                      > Liz
                                      >
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