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Harry Contradicts His Holy Book

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  • jivatmananda
    Hi everyone, I m new to this group and I decided to post after a few email exchanges with Prometheus. I m starting with an edited re-post of something I wrote
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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      Hi everyone,

      I'm new to this group and I decided to post after a few email
      exchanges with Prometheus. I'm starting with an edited re-post of
      something I wrote a couple of years ago on another message board.
      It's about Eckankar encouraging insane thinking processes, while
      sticking to logic and reason when their down-to-earth interests are
      involved.

      In a previous Mystic World (March 2005 – page 6), Harry wrote that
      the first "historical" Mahanta appeared in the present Kali Yuga.
      Here is a quote from his article:

      "So the short answer is that the Sugmad first incarnated Itself
      as the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master in the present Kali Yuga".

      Yet the Eckankar Dictionary (page 45) states that Decates was the
      Mahanta, the LEM on the continent of Atlantis and the Shariyat
      provides the same information. The Shariyat also states that
      Atlantis went down BEFORE the Kali Yuga. It supposedly went down
      before the Copper Age that precedes the Kali Yuga (volume 2 – page
      114).

      How could Decates be a Mahanta before the appearance of the
      first "historical" Mahanta? How could 2 + 2 = 5?

      Of course, some people think there is no contradiction from
      a "higher perspective". They say we should go beyond the intellect
      to embrace truth within apparent contradictions.

      As a matter-of-fact, you are creating a subconscious "mind brake"
      when you convince yourself that such contradictions express the
      truth. In other words, you are convincing yourself to never again
      trust your common sense and you are introducing germs of insanity
      within your own mind. You are basically telling yourself that 2 + 2
      = 5.

      Unfortunately, it bears more consequences than what you might think
      at first glance. Such a mind brake may create a permanent state of
      mental fuzziness that affects your logical thinking when you need to
      rely upon your own judgment. It's pretty much like casting a spell
      upon yourself.

      That spell may hinder your thinking in a critical situation where
      your well-being or someone else's well-being is involved. It may be
      your mate or your child. Rather than facing the situation with a
      sharp mind, you may find yourself in a state of confusion that
      prevents you from making a logical decision.

      As someone explained me, this is what happened to Nixon and other
      politicians who see truth as just another story line appropriate
      only if it is appropriate for the occasion. Eventually, they lose
      their ability to discern truth from any other story line.

      An organization that encourages such an insane thinking process is
      indeed a bad corporate citizen. You know what I mean, don't you?

      By the way, traditional religious dogmas are not creating the same
      mental confusion, as it's pretty much impossible to prove or
      disprove them. They don't (usually) involve contradictions such as 2
      + 2 = 5. You may believe that God created the world in seven days
      and you may also believe in the resurrection of the flesh at the
      last trumpet. There are no ways to disprove such beliefs that make
      Christians feel good. You may therefore embrace them without
      compromising your sanity.

      Some people refer to these blind beliefs as the opium of the people.
      I would then say that Eckankar is more like the crack drug as it
      involves a serious distortion of logical thinking.

      You might think that Eckankar managers totally discards logic and
      reason, but they have quite a different perspective when they own
      interests are involved. For example, they will jealously protect
      their trademarks and copyrighted material. If you don't believe me,
      you may plagiarize Harry and tell him that you got it from the
      astral library. Do you really think he will accept your explanation?
      I bet his lawyers will stick to down-to-earth legal considerations
      while they sue you for plagiarism.

      The truth is that Eckankar sticks to logic and reason when it's time
      to protect their own interests.

      As I explained my point to some Eckists, they didn't even want to
      start a logical discussion. They told me that I was lacking respect
      toward Eckankar and also toward religion at large. They forgot how
      Harry was once making fun of the Christian belief in the
      resurrection of the flesh. I remember how he was pausing between
      each sarcastic sentence, allowing plenty of time for people to laugh
      heartily.

      I don't know if there were Christian guests in the audience, but
      they would have been deeply offended. In fact, there were possibly
      Christians among the couple of security guards and hotel employees
      working in the large meeting room, but it never stopped Harry.

      I have a spiritual exercise to suggest you. Visualize yourself at
      this talk Harry gave in the eighties in a major hotel. Imagine
      yourself hearing his voice as he makes fun of Christian beliefs. See
      a security guard standing besides a pillar. See hotels employees
      bringing water pitches on tables besides the wall. After a few
      moments, mentally ask yourself Harry's favorites questions: "Is it
      true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?" Just let the answer come from
      the bottom of your heart. Then tell yourself out loud what came from
      your inner self and write it down on a piece of paper.

      I must confess that I, too, was laughing when Harry made fun of
      Christians, but I'm not the kind of saint he pretends to be. I
      sometimes criticize people and make fun of them, but unlike Harry, I
      fully assume my critical attitude. So there is absolutely no need to
      call me "Sri" Jivatmananda although I may propose similar spiritual
      exercises in the future. :D

      Jivatmananda

      P.S. Don't forget to do your new spiritual exercise. ;)
    • etznab@aol.com
      In a message dated 4/28/08 11:35:54 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Perhaps along those same lines, how could there be any history (at all) for the Earth and the
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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        In a message dated 4/28/08 11:35:54 AM Central Daylight Time, jivatmananda@... writes:


        How could Decates be a Mahanta before the appearance of the
        first "historical" Mahanta? How could 2 + 2 = 5?


           Perhaps along those same lines, how could there be any
        history (at all) for the Earth and the physical universe prior to
        the beginning of the last Satya Yuga around 3,891,102 B.C.?
        The Earth is what? Close to 5 BILLION years old? How could
        that be? if the Earth & the lower planes are destroyed at the
        end of each Kali Yuga? (Maybe the numbers are off?)

           Is everything re-created just as it was before?

           Gakko was the: "ECK Master about six million years ago."
        [The Spiritual Notebook, 10th printing 1983, pp. 196-197] So,
        what Yuga did he live in? And was Venus existing prior to the
        most recent 4,320,000-year cycle?

           "A great yuga is a period of time in cosmic history which
        consists of approximately five million years. Soul lives and
        struggles in the physical and psychic worlds during these
        cycles. But at the end of each, the SUGMAD lifts those
        Souls which have not reached perfection into the Atma Lok,
        the Fifth Plane, where they sleep while IT readjusts the
        lower worlds. After several million years, the SUGMAD ends
        the cosmic cycle and places each of these sleeping Souls
        back into the lower worlds so they can once again start their
        long journey to perfection. The cycle begins once more in the
        Satya Yuga, the Golden Age, where all is peaceful and man
        lives in harmony with all nature and creatures."

        [S.K.S., Book II, p. 110, 2nd Edition 1988]

           The copyright for S.K.S. II was 1971. The copyright for The
        ECK-VIDYA, Ancient Science of Prophecy is 1972. In the 7th
        Printing, 1994 version of The ECK-VIDYA, on p. 51 appears:

        ".... Soul must struggle through each of the eras and at the
        end of this cosmic cycle It will, if It hasn't reached perfection
        and entered into the heavenly worlds, be put into a deep sleep
        or coma, lifted up into the heavenly worlds, and kept in this
        state for a duration of many years. Meanwhile the lower or
        psychic states will be destroyed and all the lower worlds now
        gone, the space left will be in silence and darkness until the
        SUGMAD decides to re-establish them again. Then those
        Souls which had been put into sleep will start their journey
        over again to reach perfection."

        *********

        [How does one reach perfection when there is always one
        more step (another step) on the path to God?]

        *********

           I suspect this is part of what happens when people "borrow"
        history. It gets transferred in the same general form. History
        based on history doesn't need to check for credibility. Data
        gets taken (relatively speaking) just as is. Mystery, mistakes,
        errors, contradictions, impossibilities and all! In other words,
        this idea of Mahayuga & Manvantara - & associated numbers
        is not unique to recorded history. However, one can add the
        numbers for the first three cycles of the four cycles and then
        subtract that from the historical date for beginning of the last
        fraction (Kali Yuga) of the 4,320,000 cycle. The date found in
        The ECK-VIDYA mentioned earlier was given as February -
        3102 B.C.

           Adding the (said to be) duration of Satya Yuga (1,728,000)
        to Treta Yuga (1,296,000) to Dwapara Yuga (864,000) gives
        3,888,000 years. Going in reverse order (back in time) adding
        3,888,000 to 3,102 B.C. gives 3,891,102 B.C.

           Somebody help me out if I'm wrong, but this is how I came
        up with a starting date (based on the "said to be" durations)
        for the most recent Satya Yuga.

           What were things like prior to 3,891,102 B.C.? In some of
        the traditions they allow for an equal period of darkness that
        takes place between the end of one Kali Yuga and the start
        of the next Satya Yuga. What is my main curiosity, however,
        (based on this paradigm) is more along the lines of: How can
        Earth - as it is in one cosmic cycle - appear to be the "same"
        Earth as in another cosmic cycle? How can it be if the Earth
        is destroyed at the end of each cosmic cycle? (Which is it?
        Destroyed or readjusted?)

           Is Earth and the lower worlds put to sleep and "taken up"
        to the heavenly worlds before being sent back? And - sent
        back to where?????

           Gotta love those symbolic history's mysteries. Not :)

           Hey, do they give a time period for Decates?

        "Decates. deh-KAH-tehz The Mahanta, The Living ECK
        Master of his time on the continent of Atlantis, in the city
        of Sar-Kurteva." [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words -
        The Eckankar Lexicon, by Harold Klemp (Copyright 1998),
        p. 45]

           Atlantis? The Atlanteans are described as the 4th Root
        Race. I didn't find a date for them, however, (not yet) in the
        written history of modern day Eckankar.

           For the Lemurians (the earlier 3rd Root Race) already I
        have illustrated some trivia / history. In one place it looks
        like Lemuria sank before around "2 million" years ago -
        before the Treta Yuga began. In another place it looks as
        though Lemuria sank only 50,000 years ago. Take a look
        for yourself and see what you think.

        http://mirrorh.com/mu.html

           The one thing that fraggles me most about ancient and
        recorded history is that the falseness and errors don't go
        away after the actual truth gets degraded over time, and
        people continue to graft that version of it onto the annals
        of history. Wrong information - taken and written (copierd)
        down over and over is still wrong information!

           Instead of taking incredible history and passing it off to
        future generations as credible, maybe the writers should
        investigate and research information for themselves first!
        Not just take anybody & everybody's word for it - who
        claim to be authorities. (BTW, Paul Twitchell wrote about
        authority - early on.)

           Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
        comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
        and copy something already existing than it is to discover
        the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
        many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
        but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
        latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?

           Personally, I like the questions about recorded history.
        It shows that people are searching for the Whole Truth.

        Etznab






        **************
        Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
        (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
      • Elizabeth
        Hi Etznab, you wrote: Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And comes in countless versions? Because it s easier to go and copy something already
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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           Hi Etznab,  you wrote:
           
            
             Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
          comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
          and copy something already existing than it is to discover
          the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
          many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
          but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
          latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?

            
          .... Personally I think this is exactly why eckankar keeps reiterating the "living in the now"  spiel.  Of course I prefer "living in the now"  myself, as opposed to dwelling in the past, or worrying about the future.  Less stress...    Living in the now for eckankar would save them a lot of grief and keep the money rolling in.  I hear there is a huge push / campaign to get the members to hand over their life insurance policies and put klempankar in their wills....  The membership numbers must be slipping again!  LOL
        • jivatmananda
          ... Do you remember playing the telephone game when you were a child? The game works like this. You get a group of people in line, one person at one end
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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            > Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
            > comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
            > and copy something already existing than it is to discover
            > the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
            > many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
            > but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
            > latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?

            Do you remember playing the telephone game when you were a child?
            The game works like this. You get a group of people in line, one
            person at one end whispers a sentence and from that pint the message
            is whispered down the line. The hilarity ensues when last person
            states the message and it turns out is completely different from
            what the person said. The telephone game shows information gets
            changes through multiple parties.

            I guess all these legends evolved the same way. Maybe there was an
            element of truth in these stories about Atlantis, but it got so
            diluted that these legends no longer have any historical value.
            It's no better than tales such as Cindarella or Snow White and the
            Seven Dwarfs.

            All these Kali Yuga tales originate from the Indian mythology and
            Eckankar didn't invent anything. It was just another player in a long
            telephone game.

            All established religions followed pretty much the same pattern
            since the beginning of recorded history, so there is definitely not
            anything new under the Sun. The Roman Empire borrowed the Greek
            mythology while merely renaming the divinities. The Christian
            religion borrowed symbols and beliefs from pagan religions.

            I guess the same game will continue in the next centuries and
            millenia.

            Jivatmananda
          • prometheus_973
            It s true that PT and HK borrowed much of this myth from other religions. This is one thing that attracts other New Age types to Eckankar. Atlantis and Lemuria
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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              It's true that PT and HK borrowed much of this
              myth from other religions. This is one thing that
              attracts other New Age types to Eckankar. Atlantis
              and Lemuria (Mu), etc. are myths that Eckankar
              believes in and shares with other New Agers, etc.

              The Yugas and Wheel of 84, etc. is more myth
              that Eckankar shares with other religions.

              It goes on and on of course! Copyrighted names
              and tweaked Leaps of Faith are the only things
              original to Eckankar. All religions are, basically,
              similar.

              Prometheus


              etznab@... wrote:
              >

              jivatmananda@... writes:
              >

              >

              [snip]
              > The copyright for S.K.S. II was 1971. The copyright for The
              > ECK-VIDYA, Ancient Science of Prophecy is 1972. In the 7th
              > Printing, 1994 version of The ECK-VIDYA, on p. 51 appears:
              >
              > ".... Soul must struggle through each of the eras and at the
              > end of this cosmic cycle It will, if It hasn't reached perfection
              > and entered into the heavenly worlds, be put into a deep sleep
              > or coma, lifted up into the heavenly worlds, and kept in this
              > state for a duration of many years. Meanwhile the lower or
              > psychic states will be destroyed and all the lower worlds now
              > gone, the space left will be in silence and darkness until the
              > SUGMAD decides to re-establish them again. Then those
              > Souls which had been put into sleep will start their journey
              > over again to reach perfection."
              >

              > I suspect this is part of what happens when people "borrow"
              > history. It gets transferred in the same general form. History
              > based on history doesn't need to check for credibility. Data
              > gets taken (relatively speaking) just as is. Mystery, mistakes,
              > errors, contradictions, impossibilities and all! In other words,
              > this idea of Mahayuga & Manvantara - & associated numbers
              > is not unique to recorded history. However, one can add the
              > numbers for the first three cycles of the four cycles and then
              > subtract that from the historical date for beginning of the last
              > fraction (Kali Yuga) of the 4,320,000 cycle. The date found in
              > The ECK-VIDYA mentioned earlier was given as February -
              > 3102 B.C.
              >
              >[snip]
              > http://mirrorh.com/mu.html
              >
              > The one thing that fraggles me most about ancient and
              > recorded history is that the falseness and errors don't go
              > away after the actual truth gets degraded over time, and
              > people continue to graft that version of it onto the annals
              > of history. Wrong information - taken and written (copierd)
              > down over and over is still wrong information!
              >
              > Instead of taking incredible history and passing it off to
              > future generations as credible, maybe the writers should
              > investigate and research information for themselves first!
              > Not just take anybody & everybody's word for it - who
              > claim to be authorities. (BTW, Paul Twitchell wrote about
              > authority - early on.)
              >
              > Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
              > comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
              > and copy something already existing than it is to discover
              > the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
              > many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
              > but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
              > latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?
              >
              > Personally, I like the questions about recorded history.
              > It shows that people are searching for the Whole Truth.
              >
              > Etznab
            • prometheus_973
              Hi jivatmanada, Welcome to the group! I thought I d bring your original post back up to the front page. It is interesting. When one compares Twitchell s and
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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                Hi jivatmanada,
                Welcome to the group! I thought I'd bring your
                original post back up to the front page.

                It is interesting. When one compares Twitchell's
                and Gross' charisma and leadership qualities to
                that of Klemp... there is a gulf as large as the
                Grand Canyon! Klemp has no outflow because
                he has no inflow! HK squeezed in through the
                cracks in the foundation of the house that Twit
                built. Klemp has said and done nothing to enlighten
                even himself regarding TRUTH. Therefore, HK is
                unqualified to lead anyone, except, those who
                share his lower (Astral) level of consciousness!

                Prometheus

                jivatmananda wrote:
                >
                > Hi everyone,
                >
                > I'm new to this group and I decided to post after a few email
                > exchanges with Prometheus. I'm starting with an edited re-post of
                > something I wrote a couple of years ago on another message board.
                > It's about Eckankar encouraging insane thinking processes, while
                > sticking to logic and reason when their down-to-earth interests are
                > involved.
                >
                > In a previous Mystic World (March 2005 – page 6), Harry wrote that
                > the first "historical" Mahanta appeared in the present Kali Yuga.
                > Here is a quote from his article:
                >
                > "So the short answer is that the Sugmad first incarnated Itself
                > as the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master in the present Kali Yuga".
                >
                > Yet the Eckankar Dictionary (page 45) states that Decates was the
                > Mahanta, the LEM on the continent of Atlantis and the Shariyat
                > provides the same information. The Shariyat also states that
                > Atlantis went down BEFORE the Kali Yuga. It supposedly went down
                > before the Copper Age that precedes the Kali Yuga (volume 2 – page
                > 114).
                >
                > How could Decates be a Mahanta before the appearance of the
                > first "historical" Mahanta? How could 2 + 2 = 5?
                >
                > Of course, some people think there is no contradiction from
                > a "higher perspective". They say we should go beyond the intellect
                > to embrace truth within apparent contradictions.
                >
                > As a matter-of-fact, you are creating a subconscious "mind brake"
                > when you convince yourself that such contradictions express the
                > truth. In other words, you are convincing yourself to never again
                > trust your common sense and you are introducing germs of insanity
                > within your own mind. You are basically telling yourself that 2 + 2
                > = 5.
                >
                > Unfortunately, it bears more consequences than what you might think
                > at first glance. Such a mind brake may create a permanent state of
                > mental fuzziness that affects your logical thinking when you need to
                > rely upon your own judgment. It's pretty much like casting a spell
                > upon yourself.
                >
                > That spell may hinder your thinking in a critical situation where
                > your well-being or someone else's well-being is involved. It may be
                > your mate or your child. Rather than facing the situation with a
                > sharp mind, you may find yourself in a state of confusion that
                > prevents you from making a logical decision.
                >
                > As someone explained me, this is what happened to Nixon and other
                > politicians who see truth as just another story line appropriate
                > only if it is appropriate for the occasion. Eventually, they lose
                > their ability to discern truth from any other story line.
                >
                > An organization that encourages such an insane thinking process is
                > indeed a bad corporate citizen. You know what I mean, don't you?
                >
                > By the way, traditional religious dogmas are not creating the same
                > mental confusion, as it's pretty much impossible to prove or
                > disprove them. They don't (usually) involve contradictions such as 2
                > + 2 = 5. You may believe that God created the world in seven days
                > and you may also believe in the resurrection of the flesh at the
                > last trumpet. There are no ways to disprove such beliefs that make
                > Christians feel good. You may therefore embrace them without
                > compromising your sanity.
                >
                > Some people refer to these blind beliefs as the opium of the people.
                > I would then say that Eckankar is more like the crack drug as it
                > involves a serious distortion of logical thinking.
                >
                > You might think that Eckankar managers totally discards logic and
                > reason, but they have quite a different perspective when they own
                > interests are involved. For example, they will jealously protect
                > their trademarks and copyrighted material. If you don't believe me,
                > you may plagiarize Harry and tell him that you got it from the
                > astral library. Do you really think he will accept your explanation?
                > I bet his lawyers will stick to down-to-earth legal considerations
                > while they sue you for plagiarism.
                >
                > The truth is that Eckankar sticks to logic and reason when it's time
                > to protect their own interests.
                >
                > As I explained my point to some Eckists, they didn't even want to
                > start a logical discussion. They told me that I was lacking respect
                > toward Eckankar and also toward religion at large. They forgot how
                > Harry was once making fun of the Christian belief in the
                > resurrection of the flesh. I remember how he was pausing between
                > each sarcastic sentence, allowing plenty of time for people to laugh
                > heartily.
                >
                > I don't know if there were Christian guests in the audience, but
                > they would have been deeply offended. In fact, there were possibly
                > Christians among the couple of security guards and hotel employees
                > working in the large meeting room, but it never stopped Harry.
                >
                > I have a spiritual exercise to suggest you. Visualize yourself at
                > this talk Harry gave in the eighties in a major hotel. Imagine
                > yourself hearing his voice as he makes fun of Christian beliefs. See
                > a security guard standing besides a pillar. See hotels employees
                > bringing water pitches on tables besides the wall. After a few
                > moments, mentally ask yourself Harry's favorites questions: "Is it
                > true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?" Just let the answer come from
                > the bottom of your heart. Then tell yourself out loud what came from
                > your inner self and write it down on a piece of paper.
                >
                > I must confess that I, too, was laughing when Harry made fun of
                > Christians, but I'm not the kind of saint he pretends to be. I
                > sometimes criticize people and make fun of them, but unlike Harry, I
                > fully assume my critical attitude. So there is absolutely no need to
                > call me "Sri" Jivatmananda although I may propose similar spiritual
                > exercises in the future. :D
                >
                > Jivatmananda
                >
                > P.S. Don't forget to do your new spiritual exercise. ;)
                >
              • jivatmananda
                Hi Prometheus, Thanks for your kind welcome! Klemp actually lives in a protected bubble where everyone say Yes Sir! to him. No one could contradict him on a
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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                  Hi Prometheus,

                  Thanks for your kind welcome!

                  Klemp actually lives in a protected bubble where everyone say "Yes
                  Sir!" to him. No one could contradict him on a major issue and not
                  get fired (and possible excommunicated).

                  Even the most sane and enlightened person on Earth couldn't keep
                  his/her sanity and sense of discrimination after spending more than
                  25 years in that protective bubble. It may be one of the reasons why
                  a US president must leave after 8 years.

                  Now imagine what would happen to someone who had previously
                  experienced mental health problems. I guess you understand what I
                  means...

                  Jivatmananda

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi jivatmanada,
                  > Welcome to the group! I thought I'd bring your
                  > original post back up to the front page.
                  >
                  > It is interesting. When one compares Twitchell's
                  > and Gross' charisma and leadership qualities to
                  > that of Klemp... there is a gulf as large as the
                  > Grand Canyon! Klemp has no outflow because
                  > he has no inflow! HK squeezed in through the
                  > cracks in the foundation of the house that Twit
                  > built. Klemp has said and done nothing to enlighten
                  > even himself regarding TRUTH. Therefore, HK is
                  > unqualified to lead anyone, except, those who
                  > share his lower (Astral) level of consciousness!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                • mishmisha9
                  Hello, Jivat, Etznab and All! First, Jivat (hope you don t mind I ve shortened your name), welcome to ESA. I ve enjoyed your posts. And Etznab, nice that you
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 28, 2008
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                    Hello, Jivat, Etznab and All!

                    First, Jivat (hope you don't mind I've shortened your name), welcome
                    to ESA. I've enjoyed your posts. And Etznab, nice that you share so
                    much of your research and thoughts here. : )

                    I guess one could say there is nothing new under the sun in
                    regards to religions, the old and the "new!" The interesting thing
                    that we need to remember is that for a con to work or for a leader
                    to gain a following, truth and fiction have to be mixed. Many
                    people will look for truth to validate what is being sold. The
                    mistake is believing that finding a kernal of truth in a religious
                    teaching makes it valid or truthful in all portions of it. Or that
                    the obvious duplicity is okay because that one kernal of truth
                    is more important than all the lies. This IMO is flawed rationale!

                    I think the best thing to happen to eckankar is Harold Klemp. He
                    is such a ridiculous head of church that Saturday Night Live could
                    create some good skits, or even better, just imagine what Steven
                    Cobert would do with this self-proclaimed godman, "the highest
                    consciousness known to mankind" delusional fool! LOL! It sure is
                    fun to poke fun at him, isn't it? And doesn't Klemp make eckankar
                    look dumb and silly??

                    Anyway, why do we need religion? Why do we cluster in groups
                    trying to find a stairway to heaven? I suppose much of it has to
                    do with the fear of the unknown and the safety in numbers. For
                    the con men like Klemp, there is the need to be important and the
                    need to control other people and to feed off their money and
                    devotion.

                    I'm reading an interesting book called "Under the Banner of Heaven"
                    by Jon Krakauer. It is about the extreme religious beliefs of fundamental
                    Mormons and how it has evolved to present day. I probably shouldn't
                    use the word "evolve" because evolution really speaks of advancement
                    through the ages. Fundamentalism stays in the dark ages and refuses
                    to grow and improve beyond growing in membership.

                    I'm waiting for Klemp's next book--I so enjoyed reading "Those
                    Wonderful ECK Masters," published in 2005. Seems that Klemp is
                    slow writing these days--is he lazy or befuddled as to how to
                    continue his lies and schemes?? I'm sure he is still wanting to put
                    Joan up there as Co-L.E.M. I'd almost bet he's hell bent on doing so
                    because he has to prove that he can do it and not be thwarted by
                    critical thinking individuals who can see through his cons! LOL!

                    With eckankar under Klemp the con has evolved while individual
                    spirituality has stagnated! Too bad, so sad! : )

                    Mish

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jivatmananda"
                    <jivatmananda@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Is this why ancient history is in such shambles? And
                    > > comes in countless versions? Because it's easier to go
                    > > and copy something already existing than it is to discover
                    > > the actual truth about history for oneself? Is this why so
                    > > many people boo-hoo recorded history as worthy of study,
                    > > but gravitate to legend, mystery and myth instead? The
                    > > latter is truth mixed with untruth, which is easier to write?
                    >
                    > Do you remember playing the telephone game when you were a child?
                    > The game works like this. You get a group of people in line, one
                    > person at one end whispers a sentence and from that pint the message
                    > is whispered down the line. The hilarity ensues when last person
                    > states the message and it turns out is completely different from
                    > what the person said. The telephone game shows information gets
                    > changes through multiple parties.
                    >
                    > I guess all these legends evolved the same way. Maybe there was an
                    > element of truth in these stories about Atlantis, but it got so
                    > diluted that these legends no longer have any historical value.
                    > It's no better than tales such as Cindarella or Snow White and the
                    > Seven Dwarfs.
                    >
                    > All these Kali Yuga tales originate from the Indian mythology and
                    > Eckankar didn't invent anything. It was just another player in a long
                    > telephone game.
                    >
                    > All established religions followed pretty much the same pattern
                    > since the beginning of recorded history, so there is definitely not
                    > anything new under the Sun. The Roman Empire borrowed the Greek
                    > mythology while merely renaming the divinities. The Christian
                    > religion borrowed symbols and beliefs from pagan religions.
                    >
                    > I guess the same game will continue in the next centuries and
                    > millenia.
                    >
                    > Jivatmananda
                    >
                  • jivatmananda
                    Hello Mish, I agree that kernals of truth are not enough to make a religious teaching valid. Last night, I was contemplating upon the main ingredients of most
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                      Hello Mish,

                      I agree that kernals of truth are not enough to make a religious
                      teaching valid. Last night, I was contemplating upon the main
                      ingredients of most religions:

                      1. Borrowed elements from other religions.
                      2. Inner experiences of the founders/leaders.
                      3. Punishment and/or exclusion of people with inner experiences or
                      opinions that contradict those of the founders/leaders.

                      The punishment or exclusion may include blame, social disapproval,
                      several forms of harassment, excommunication or even burning
                      heretics at the stake (as it happened in the Middle Ages).

                      There is of course the business side, but I'm currently focusing
                      upon those elements that are specific to religion. I'm not denying
                      that religion is also about control and money.

                      By the way, I think that kernels of truth can be found both in the
                      inner experiences of the founders/leaders, borrowed elements from
                      other religions, and the inner experiences of those who disagree
                      with the founders/leaders.

                      Jivatmananda



                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                      <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello, Jivat, Etznab and All!
                      >
                      > First, Jivat (hope you don't mind I've shortened your name),
                      welcome
                      > to ESA. I've enjoyed your posts. And Etznab, nice that you share so
                      > much of your research and thoughts here. : )
                      >
                      > I guess one could say there is nothing new under the sun in
                      > regards to religions, the old and the "new!" The interesting thing
                      > that we need to remember is that for a con to work or for a leader
                      > to gain a following, truth and fiction have to be mixed. Many
                      > people will look for truth to validate what is being sold. The
                      > mistake is believing that finding a kernal of truth in a religious
                      > teaching makes it valid or truthful in all portions of it. Or that
                      > the obvious duplicity is okay because that one kernal of truth
                      > is more important than all the lies. This IMO is flawed rationale!
                      >
                      > I think the best thing to happen to eckankar is Harold Klemp. He
                      > is such a ridiculous head of church that Saturday Night Live could
                      > create some good skits, or even better, just imagine what Steven
                      > Cobert would do with this self-proclaimed godman, "the highest
                      > consciousness known to mankind" delusional fool! LOL! It sure is
                      > fun to poke fun at him, isn't it? And doesn't Klemp make eckankar
                      > look dumb and silly??
                      >
                      > Anyway, why do we need religion? Why do we cluster in groups
                      > trying to find a stairway to heaven? I suppose much of it has to
                      > do with the fear of the unknown and the safety in numbers. For
                      > the con men like Klemp, there is the need to be important and the
                      > need to control other people and to feed off their money and
                      > devotion.
                      >
                      > I'm reading an interesting book called "Under the Banner of Heaven"
                      > by Jon Krakauer. It is about the extreme religious beliefs of
                      fundamental
                      > Mormons and how it has evolved to present day. I probably shouldn't
                      > use the word "evolve" because evolution really speaks of
                      advancement
                      > through the ages. Fundamentalism stays in the dark ages and refuses
                      > to grow and improve beyond growing in membership.
                      >
                      > I'm waiting for Klemp's next book--I so enjoyed reading "Those
                      > Wonderful ECK Masters," published in 2005. Seems that Klemp is
                      > slow writing these days--is he lazy or befuddled as to how to
                      > continue his lies and schemes?? I'm sure he is still wanting to put
                      > Joan up there as Co-L.E.M. I'd almost bet he's hell bent on doing
                      so
                      > because he has to prove that he can do it and not be thwarted by
                      > critical thinking individuals who can see through his cons! LOL!
                      >
                      > With eckankar under Klemp the con has evolved while individual
                      > spirituality has stagnated! Too bad, so sad! : )
                      >
                      > Mish
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, I would, also, say that each early government/ country of the world encouraged a certain religious thought (religion) as a means to control the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                        Hello All,
                        I would, also, say that each early government/
                        country of the world encouraged a certain religious
                        thought (religion) as a means to control the populace.
                        Religions are still used today, by religious leaders,
                        governments, and politicians to placate people and
                        to distract them and to give them hope while they
                        are led down a primrose lane of delusion and, even,
                        sometimes to their destruction by these same self-
                        centered power brokers.

                        Many religions first began with non-scientific
                        explanations for the cosmos. There was Ra the
                        Sun God, and Zeus (or was it Apollo?) driving a
                        Golden Chariot across the sky. Everything about
                        life and nature was explained away with a little
                        help from real, distorted, and imagined observation.
                        People's lives in the past and today become fragmented
                        and fractioned as they try to pursue opportunities
                        in creative innovation in every sphere of human action.

                        The Mosaic conception of God was particularly relevant
                        to twentieth century need. First, the Abrahamic "old man
                        in the sky" is quite unbelievable in this scientific age.
                        He is a "theistic" God, being "out there" in space, a God
                        who "has a world." The Mosaic God without finite form
                        is everywhere present. This is "panentheism." It means
                        God is in (en) everything, and everything which exists
                        is "in" God. Therefore, the divine center of meaning
                        is to be found within. The God within must be a kind
                        of World Spirit which wears the universe as its body.

                        Tillich argued that God was not the Creator of the
                        universe, because that implied that creation was an
                        activity confined to some remote time in the past,
                        but that God was creativity, implying that the creating
                        goes on in every present moment and that God is in
                        every innovative moment in human endeavor.

                        Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man
                        can see where and how religion has progressed and
                        increased its hold on people and has changed throughout
                        world history. Religion can be a complicated topic with
                        one's personal beliefs and experiences mixed in with
                        those of others. Religion includes myth, superstition,
                        tradition and a hodge-podge of other things according
                        to culture.

                        The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                        personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                        The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                        and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                        hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                        political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!

                        Prometheus




                        jivatmananda wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Mish,
                        >
                        > I agree that kernals of truth are not enough to make a religious
                        > teaching valid. Last night, I was contemplating upon the main
                        > ingredients of most religions:
                        >
                        > 1. Borrowed elements from other religions.
                        > 2. Inner experiences of the founders/leaders.
                        > 3. Punishment and/or exclusion of people with inner experiences or
                        > opinions that contradict those of the founders/leaders.
                        >
                        > The punishment or exclusion may include blame, social disapproval,
                        > several forms of harassment, excommunication or even burning
                        > heretics at the stake (as it happened in the Middle Ages).
                        >
                        > There is of course the business side, but I'm currently focusing
                        > upon those elements that are specific to religion. I'm not denying
                        > that religion is also about control and money.
                        >
                        > By the way, I think that kernels of truth can be found both in the
                        > inner experiences of the founders/leaders, borrowed elements from
                        > other religions, and the inner experiences of those who disagree
                        > with the founders/leaders.
                        >
                        > Jivatmananda
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                        > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello, Jivat, Etznab and All!
                        > >
                        > > First, Jivat (hope you don't mind I've shortened your name),
                        > welcome
                        > > to ESA. I've enjoyed your posts. And Etznab, nice that you share so
                        > > much of your research and thoughts here. : )
                        > >
                        > > I guess one could say there is nothing new under the sun in
                        > > regards to religions, the old and the "new!" The interesting thing
                        > > that we need to remember is that for a con to work or for a leader
                        > > to gain a following, truth and fiction have to be mixed. Many
                        > > people will look for truth to validate what is being sold. The
                        > > mistake is believing that finding a kernal of truth in a religious
                        > > teaching makes it valid or truthful in all portions of it. Or that
                        > > the obvious duplicity is okay because that one kernal of truth
                        > > is more important than all the lies. This IMO is flawed rationale!
                        > >
                        > > I think the best thing to happen to eckankar is Harold Klemp. He
                        > > is such a ridiculous head of church that Saturday Night Live could
                        > > create some good skits, or even better, just imagine what Steven
                        > > Cobert would do with this self-proclaimed godman, "the highest
                        > > consciousness known to mankind" delusional fool! LOL! It sure is
                        > > fun to poke fun at him, isn't it? And doesn't Klemp make eckankar
                        > > look dumb and silly??
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, why do we need religion? Why do we cluster in groups
                        > > trying to find a stairway to heaven? I suppose much of it has to
                        > > do with the fear of the unknown and the safety in numbers. For
                        > > the con men like Klemp, there is the need to be important and the
                        > > need to control other people and to feed off their money and
                        > > devotion.
                        > >
                        > > I'm reading an interesting book called "Under the Banner of Heaven"
                        > > by Jon Krakauer. It is about the extreme religious beliefs of
                        > fundamental
                        > > Mormons and how it has evolved to present day. I probably shouldn't
                        > > use the word "evolve" because evolution really speaks of
                        > advancement
                        > > through the ages. Fundamentalism stays in the dark ages and refuses
                        > > to grow and improve beyond growing in membership.
                        > >
                        > > I'm waiting for Klemp's next book--I so enjoyed reading "Those
                        > > Wonderful ECK Masters," published in 2005. Seems that Klemp is
                        > > slow writing these days--is he lazy or befuddled as to how to
                        > > continue his lies and schemes?? I'm sure he is still wanting to put
                        > > Joan up there as Co-L.E.M. I'd almost bet he's hell bent on doing
                        > so
                        > > because he has to prove that he can do it and not be thwarted by
                        > > critical thinking individuals who can see through his cons! LOL!
                        > >
                        > > With eckankar under Klemp the con has evolved while individual
                        > > spirituality has stagnated! Too bad, so sad! : )
                        > >
                        > > Mish
                        > >
                        >
                      • Elizabeth
                        Prometheus wrote: Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man can see where and how religion has progressed and increased its hold on people and has
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                          Prometheus wrote:
                           
                          Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man
                          can see where and how religion has progressed and
                          increased its hold on people and has changed throughout
                          world history. Religion can be a complicated topic with
                          one's personal beliefs and experiences mixed in with
                          those of others. Religion includes myth, superstition,
                          tradition and a hodge-podge of other things according
                          to culture.
                           
                          The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                          personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                          The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                          and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                          hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                          political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!
                           
                           
                          ..... One of my siblings took a "History Of Religions" class in college a couple years ago.  This was when she actually did some back ground research on eckankar.  For those of you not familiar with our family history as eck members;   I was a member of eckankar from the age of 12.   Spent a little over 30 yrs. as a member.  Our entire family joined late 1971, to include grandparents, parents and my 3 siblings and myself.  I used to boast about coming from a four generation family of eckists....   (rolling my eyes!)
                           
                          I left the teachings almost 5 yrs ago, but it took my sister longer to find her way out.  The class she took, as well as her instructor, pushed her to research eckankar not only from a members perspective, but with a neutral look into it's history.  When she started looking for info on the net, that was when she actually realized there was more to my leaving the path and being disowned by my entire family because of it, than she understood.  I was the black sheep of the family and was warned not to communicate with me or listen to anything I had to say!    What was more upsetting to them the most was the fact that they always thought of me as the one more DEVOTED and unlikely to leave in the first place!  So for me to leave, rocked them to their core, as it did many eck members in my local area and on the Internet / eck chat groups. 
                           
                          I completely agree with Prometheus!  The bottom line is,  I am my own personal and private religion and leader.... I need no middle man to have connection and experiences with spirit!  No one needs to guide me, save me, or take me to the next level of the god worlds.  No one is higher, better or more spiritual than the next guy! 
                           
                          I'm really enjoying the current conversations taking place here.  And of course Etznab you impress me with each new topic you bring to the group.
                           
                          Liz 
                        • jivatmananda
                          I agree with Prometheus who wrote that all religions first began with non-scientific explanations for the cosmos. You mentioned Ra the Sun God (or Apollo).
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                            I agree with Prometheus who wrote that all religions first began with
                            non-scientific explanations for the cosmos. You mentioned Ra the Sun
                            God (or Apollo). People saw the Sun as a higher power and they tried
                            to establish a relationship with it. The same thing happened with
                            natural phenomenas such as the rain or the wind.

                            With the passing millenia, societies grew more sophisticated and so
                            did religions. Yet they are the same primitive attempts to come up
                            with explanations for the cosmos. I'm not saying there are no
                            "higher" or "invisible" forces at work. I'm just saying that we don't
                            need religions nor middle men to deal with them.

                            Jivat

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > I would, also, say that each early government/
                            > country of the world encouraged a certain religious
                            > thought (religion) as a means to control the populace.
                            > Religions are still used today, by religious leaders,
                            > governments, and politicians to placate people and
                            > to distract them and to give them hope while they
                            > are led down a primrose lane of delusion and, even,
                            > sometimes to their destruction by these same self-
                            > centered power brokers.
                            >
                            > Many religions first began with non-scientific
                            > explanations for the cosmos. There was Ra the
                            > Sun God, and Zeus (or was it Apollo?) driving a
                            > Golden Chariot across the sky. Everything about
                            > life and nature was explained away with a little
                            > help from real, distorted, and imagined observation.
                            > People's lives in the past and today become fragmented
                            > and fractioned as they try to pursue opportunities
                            > in creative innovation in every sphere of human action.
                            >
                            > The Mosaic conception of God was particularly relevant
                            > to twentieth century need. First, the Abrahamic "old man
                            > in the sky" is quite unbelievable in this scientific age.
                            > He is a "theistic" God, being "out there" in space, a God
                            > who "has a world." The Mosaic God without finite form
                            > is everywhere present. This is "panentheism." It means
                            > God is in (en) everything, and everything which exists
                            > is "in" God. Therefore, the divine center of meaning
                            > is to be found within. The God within must be a kind
                            > of World Spirit which wears the universe as its body.
                            >
                            > Tillich argued that God was not the Creator of the
                            > universe, because that implied that creation was an
                            > activity confined to some remote time in the past,
                            > but that God was creativity, implying that the creating
                            > goes on in every present moment and that God is in
                            > every innovative moment in human endeavor.
                            >
                            > Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man
                            > can see where and how religion has progressed and
                            > increased its hold on people and has changed throughout
                            > world history. Religion can be a complicated topic with
                            > one's personal beliefs and experiences mixed in with
                            > those of others. Religion includes myth, superstition,
                            > tradition and a hodge-podge of other things according
                            > to culture.
                            >
                            > The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                            > personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                            > The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                            > and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                            > hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                            > political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Great point about the telephone game, Jivatmananda. IMO, it s generally the people in power who s versions of history take center stage. Kinda like how money
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                 Great point about the telephone game, Jivatmananda.

                                 IMO, it's generally the people in power who's versions
                              of history take center stage. Kinda like how money and
                              politics today "own" most of the major media.

                                 The truth is out there, IMO. It might not be as popular
                              as the "party" line though.

                              Etznab

                                









                              **************
                              Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
                              (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              In a message dated 4/28/08 11:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Good point Mish. Etznab ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                In a message dated 4/28/08 11:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, mishmisha9@... writes:


                                The
                                mistake is believing that finding a kernal of truth in a religious
                                teaching makes it valid or truthful in all portions of it. Or that
                                the obvious duplicity is okay because that one kernal of truth
                                is more important than all the lies. This IMO is flawed rationale!


                                   Good point Mish.

                                Etznab



                                **************
                                Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
                                (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                In a message dated 4/29/08 11:40:16 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Bravo :) :) :) Etznab ************** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S.
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                  In a message dated 4/29/08 11:40:16 AM Central Daylight Time, prometheus_973@... writes:


                                  The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                                  personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                                  The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                                  and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                                  hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                                  political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!


                                     Bravo :) :) :)

                                  Etznab



                                  **************
                                  Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
                                  (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
                                • etznab@aol.com
                                  Liz, Grateful for the history and experience you share. Some of the best people that I have ever known have left the Eckankar organization. I still think of
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                    Liz,

                                       Grateful for the history and experience you share. Some of
                                    the best people that I have ever known have left the Eckankar
                                    organization. I still think of them as some of the best people I
                                    know.

                                    Etznab



                                    **************
                                    Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
                                    (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
                                  • jivatmananda
                                    Etznab, you just need to look at Eckankar to see how right you are. They almost deleted 10 years of their short history and rewrote what they didn t delete
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 29, 2008
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                                      Etznab, you just need to look at Eckankar to see how right you are.
                                      They almost deleted 10 years of their short history and rewrote what
                                      they didn't delete from that period of time.

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                      IMO, it's generally the people in power who's versions
                                      > of history take center stage. Kinda like how money and
                                      > politics today "own" most of the major media.
                                      >
                                    • mishmisha9
                                      Liz wrote: One of my siblings took a History Of Religions class in college a couple years ago. This was when she actually did some back ground research on
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Apr 30, 2008
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                                        Liz wrote:
                                        "One of my siblings took a "History Of Religions" class in college
                                        a couple years ago. This was when she actually did some back
                                        ground research on eckankar. (snip)

                                        I left the teachings almost 5 yrs ago, but it took my sister longer
                                        to find her way out. The class she took, as well as her instructor,
                                        pushed her to research eckankar not only from a members
                                        perspective, but with a neutral look into it's history. When she
                                        started looking for info on the net, that was when she actually
                                        realized there was more to my leaving the path and being disowned
                                        by my entire family because of it, than she understood."

                                        Liz,
                                        This is a good point about studying the history of any religion. It
                                        requires a neutral look in order to understand. Several months ago I posted
                                        about the enjoyable interviews that Bill Moyers did on his PBS program discussing
                                        Faith and Reason with individuals of varying views on religion. It was a really good
                                        program because it highlighted how and why there is so much conflict between
                                        religious believers and critical thinkers. The biggest flaw with religion is
                                        that those who are the leaders of a religious group require the obedience of
                                        non-thinking. Religions for the most part depend on faith--hence, so many
                                        prayers are sent out. But for the most part followers are being preyed upon!

                                        Another point is that it seems sinful to criticize a religion for its practices.
                                        For that reason few seem concerned enough to truly protect the little
                                        children (young girls) who were removed from that fundamentalist cult in Texas.
                                        Some professionals believe returning them to their families is in the children's
                                        best interest, along with some educating! Yeah, right! That is a very insidious
                                        cult group whose main doctrine is to make girls/women into sex slaves.
                                        Which is another point about man-made religions: men generally use
                                        church doctrine to manipulate and control women. Why do women fall this?

                                        Yes, I know there are many female RESAs in eckankar--but that is really
                                        just like putting women in the kitchen to cook while the men are
                                        watching the Super Bowl! The RESAs are doing Klemp's work and
                                        cleaning up after him! Other than Joan, the H.I. eck women without a
                                        doubt have hit the glass ceiling! To be greater, they have to come
                                        back to this life--but need to choose a male body next time! LOL!

                                        Mish

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
                                        <ewickings@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, students of religion, of history, and of man
                                        > can see where and how religion has progressed and
                                        > increased its hold on people and has changed throughout
                                        > world history. Religion can be a complicated topic with
                                        > one's personal beliefs and experiences mixed in with
                                        > those of others. Religion includes myth, superstition,
                                        > tradition and a hodge-podge of other things according
                                        > to culture.
                                        >
                                        > The bottom line is that each of us should have our own
                                        > personal and private religion and be that religion's leader!
                                        > The group and mob mentality to conform (group think)
                                        > and directed by "leaders" is not a path to freedom. Religious
                                        > hierarchies have the same purpose as the non-secular
                                        > political hierarchies they were modeled after. It's to control!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ..... One of my siblings took a "History Of Religions" class in college a
                                        > couple years ago. This was when she actually did some back ground research
                                        > on eckankar. For those of you not familiar with our family history as eck
                                        > members; I was a member of eckankar from the age of 12. Spent a little
                                        > over 30 yrs. as a member. Our entire family joined late 1971, to include
                                        > grandparents, parents and my 3 siblings and myself. I used to boast about
                                        > coming from a four generation family of eckists.... (rolling my eyes!)
                                        >
                                        > I left the teachings almost 5 yrs ago, but it took my sister longer to find
                                        > her way out. The class she took, as well as her instructor, pushed her to
                                        > research eckankar not only from a members perspective, but with a neutral
                                        > look into it's history. When she started looking for info on the net, that
                                        > was when she actually realized there was more to my leaving the path and
                                        > being disowned by my entire family because of it, than she understood. I
                                        > was the black sheep of the family and was warned not to communicate with me
                                        > or listen to anything I had to say! What was more upsetting to them the
                                        > most was the fact that they always thought of me as the one more DEVOTED and
                                        > unlikely to leave in the first place! So for me to leave, rocked them to
                                        > their core, as it did many eck members in my local area and on the Internet
                                        > / eck chat groups.
                                        >
                                        > I completely agree with Prometheus! The bottom line is, I am my own
                                        > personal and private religion and leader.... I need no middle man to have
                                        > connection and experiences with spirit! No one needs to guide me, save me,
                                        > or take me to the next level of the god worlds. No one is higher, better or
                                        > more spiritual than the next guy!
                                        >
                                        > I'm really enjoying the current conversations taking place here. And of
                                        > course Etznab you impress me with each new topic you bring to the group.
                                        >
                                        > Liz
                                        >
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