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When Will Klemp Mention Darwin Gross' Death?

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  • prometheus_973
    ECKists feel the need to speculate, second guess, and to make excuses for either Klemp s lack of insight (prophecy) or for HK s lack of basic human love &
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 7, 2008
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      ECKists feel the need to speculate, second guess,
      and to make excuses for either Klemp's lack of insight
      (prophecy) or for HK's lack of basic human love &
      compassion, as well as, empathy for Darwin at the
      time of his translation (death).

      If Klemp was who he claimed to be and had those
      special powers of insight and prophecy HK would
      have offered an olive branch to Darwin at this past
      Oct., 2007 Eckankar World Wide Seminar while Darwin
      was still alive!

      Instead, ECKists are speculating that this will be
      some sort of a belated comment or acknowledgment
      that Darwin was the 972nd LEM (Mahanta). As I stated
      before, Darwin was at least a 13th! I know that he couldn't
      have been any "lower" than Klemp is now!

      I was kind of thinking that Klemp will probably mention
      Darwin's passing in the next June, 2008 Mystic World
      or H.I. Letter. I really doubt that Klemp and the EK Board
      would want to do a "special" mailing... that would cost
      extra!

      But, then again, most long-time H.I.s (including Klemp)
      do owe Darwin for all of those initiations! These H.I.s
      should remember all of those initiations that Darwin gave
      to them.... freely!

      ECKists should look at those Old Dream Journals from
      Oct., 1971 to Oct., 1982 and reread their Inner
      experiences with their Mahanta... Darwin Gross!
      The testimonials are pretty much the same as they
      are now... maybe better!

      BTW-Are these older Mystic Worlds, H.I. Letters and
      ECK World News issues available to chelas? Why not?
      Many ECKists would like to see and read this part of
      ECK History... for comparison, or whatever!

      And, isn't it true (in the teachings of Eckankar) that the
      Master who initiates you, also, looks out for you and
      teaches you upon the Inner Planes... until you're ready
      to go it by yourSelf and as one with the Holy Spirit when
      you (as Soul) becomes It's own Master. Under Darwin this
      would already have happened for most long-time ECKists!
      Darwin was Not stingy with Initiations like Klemp is with
      his excuses for more training, or being graded for following
      the guidelines (or not!), and that ever so slow linear progression
      based upon the opinion of one's RESA. It's really just a delay
      tactic... since Klemp is a KAL agent. The initiation number
      became a spiritually meaningless rank without the possibility
      of more promotions after most chelas reach the 7th initiation.

      However, this is still a time of reflection... and a time for
      waiting and waiting and second guessing!

      How long will it take Klemp to do the right thing by Darwin's
      memory?

      What is the right thing?

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      ratapesce wrote: You state, When will Harold Klemp inform people that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead? The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part
      Message 2 of 7 , May 7, 2009
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        ratapesce wrote:

        You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
        that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"

        The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
        Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.

        Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
        he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.

        He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
        that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
        with Eckankar.

        So there is no need to mention of his translation.

        By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
        of the translations of many other souls. For example,
        many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
        not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
        of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
        simply not necessary to do so.

        I hope this answers your question.

        Hello Rat,
        My question was rhetorical and thus didn't need
        an answer because it's obvious that Klemp is still
        fearful of Darwin's influence upon Eckists. This
        fear is passed onto EKists who aren't permitted
        to speak about Darwin (in Satsang, etc.) and why
        Klemp hasn't mentioned the death of the 972th
        M/LEM! Wasn't Rebazar present on Oct. 22, 1971
        for Gross just as he was on Oct. 22, 1981 for Klemp?
        Sure! According to the ECKankar myth and hearsay
        he was! Thus, this EK Dogma ties Gross to ECKankar
        and to all EKists

        And, isn't it true that Darwin is part of the "lineage
        of EK Masters." Let's not forget If it wasn't for Darwin,
        Klemp wouldn't be where he is today, and EKists wouldn't
        be looking to him to protect, heal, and guide, them via
        the inner planes, or so he claims with the help of fertile
        imaginations feeding their desires!

        Thus, Darwin and those initiated under him, who
        remain Eckists, will always be connected to him
        and to ECKankar. How many initiations did Darwin
        give to current and former RESAs? Several!

        Anyway, since Klemp mentions the translation
        of 7th and 8th Initiates why wouldn't he mention
        the translation of Darwin It's not like a former
        ECK Master translates everyday! See! It just doesn't
        make sense. There has to be more to the story.

        Another point is that we only have Klemp's word
        that Darwin was actually expelled from the Ancient
        Order of the Vairagi EK Masters. Let's face it, Klemp's
        motive for getting rid of Darwin is that as long as
        Darwin was around he (Klemp) couldn't become the
        Mahanta!

        Another explanation for Darwin's "earthly" motives,
        of doing what they claim he did (spending too much
        money) as president of ECKankar, may have had a
        "higher" purpose. Appearances can be deceiving.
        How can a newly initiated 12th initiate (in training)
        like Klemp "know" what guidance Darwin was receiving
        from SUGMAD? Perhaps, it was all a test that Klemp
        and his EK Board failed. Look at the way Klemp has
        treated Darwin. Why so unloving and unforgiving?

        Actually, ECKists are in denial and have to make up
        stories and use excuses for Klemp's anger and unloving
        omission of Darwin's translation. After all, this is proof
        (staring them in the face) that Klemp can't be a "Master"
        since he can't "let go" of his anger toward Darwin. Anyone
        close to being a "Spiritual Master" would have "Mastered"
        their own emotions... and Klemp hasn't!

        HK needs EKists to fight his battles (make excuses
        for him) because he has no power otherwise! Klemp's
        a fraud like Twitchell and Gross and so are the EK initiations.
        One has to only observe and/or listen to what H.I.s say
        when they are away from EK functions and are no longer
        wearing their EK mask.

        BTW- Why doesn't the M/LEM "know" things without
        a "list" being provided for him? HK only "knows" via
        hindsight, or letters and reports mailed to him. Lists,
        for initiation eligibility, are generated by a computer
        and sent to the RESAs for approval. Klemp doesn't
        know anything about ECKankar's "lists" in general!

        For Klemp Not to mention Darwin's death is Not
        the same (or even close) to Not mentioning those
        who have currently died in the Gulf War. That's
        illogical and is like comparing apples to oranges!
        That's Not a good ekample to use. Klemp has stated,
        in the past, that Darwin was an EK Master and was
        "his" Master! This is why Klemp, supposedly, is an
        EK Master too. Thus, there is a direct connection
        with Twitchell: to Darwin; to Klemp; to ECKankar;
        to ECKists today.

        Prometheus


        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > ECKists feel the need to speculate, second guess,
        > and to make excuses for either Klemp's lack of insight
        > (prophecy) or for HK's lack of basic human love &
        > compassion, as well as, empathy for Darwin at the
        > time of his translation (death).
        >
        > If Klemp was who he claimed to be and had those
        > special powers of insight and prophecy HK would
        > have offered an olive branch to Darwin at this past
        > Oct., 2007 Eckankar World Wide Seminar while Darwin
        > was still alive!
        >
        > Instead, ECKists are speculating that this will be
        > some sort of a belated comment or acknowledgment
        > that Darwin was the 972nd LEM (Mahanta). As I stated
        > before, Darwin was at least a 13th! I know that he couldn't
        > have been any "lower" than Klemp is now!
        >
        > I was kind of thinking that Klemp will probably mention
        > Darwin's passing in the next June, 2008 Mystic World
        > or H.I. Letter. I really doubt that Klemp and the EK Board
        > would want to do a "special" mailing... that would cost
        > extra!
        >
        > But, then again, most long-time H.I.s (including Klemp)
        > do owe Darwin for all of those initiations! These H.I.s
        > should remember all of those initiations that Darwin gave
        > to them.... freely!
        >
        > ECKists should look at those Old Dream Journals from
        > Oct., 1971 to Oct., 1982 and reread their Inner
        > experiences with their Mahanta... Darwin Gross!
        > The testimonials are pretty much the same as they
        > are now... maybe better!
        >
        > BTW-Are these older Mystic Worlds, H.I. Letters and
        > ECK World News issues available to chelas? Why not?
        > Many ECKists would like to see and read this part of
        > ECK History... for comparison, or whatever!
        >
        > And, isn't it true (in the teachings of Eckankar) that the
        > Master who initiates you, also, looks out for you and
        > teaches you upon the Inner Planes... until you're ready
        > to go it by yourSelf and as one with the Holy Spirit when
        > you (as Soul) becomes It's own Master. Under Darwin this
        > would already have happened for most long-time ECKists!
        > Darwin was Not stingy with Initiations like Klemp is with
        > his excuses for more training, or being graded for following
        > the guidelines (or not!), and that ever so slow linear progression
        > based upon the opinion of one's RESA. It's really just a delay
        > tactic... since Klemp is a KAL agent. The initiation number
        > became a spiritually meaningless rank without the possibility
        > of more promotions after most chelas reach the 7th initiation.
        >
        > However, this is still a time of reflection... and a time for
        > waiting and waiting and second guessing!
        >
        > How long will it take Klemp to do the right thing by Darwin's
        > memory?
        >
        > What is the right thing?
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • mishmisha9
        Just a few comments in response to what ratapesce wrote: You state, When will Harold Klemp inform people that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?
        Message 3 of 7 , May 7, 2009
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          Just a few comments in response to what
          ratapesce wrote:

          "You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
          that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"

          The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
          Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.

          Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
          he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.

          He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
          that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
          with Eckankar.

          So there is no need to mention of his translation.

          By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
          of the translations of many other souls. For example,
          many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
          not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
          of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
          simply not necessary to do so.

          I hope this answers your question."

          *************************************************************

          Hi, Ratapesce!

          Glad you are reading ESA. Many eckists would close their
          eyes to this site, but the fact that you are reading some of
          the posts might be a good start for you finding the truth
          about Klemp and eckankar. Perhaps, you have spent a lot
          of time devoted to the teachings . . . and in order for them
          to work, you need to rationalize what is not really apparent
          due in part to Klemp's silence as in the case of Darwin's
          death and the fact that eckankar promotes secrecy. Not to
          mention it is really an org. created and based on lies.

          Anyway, your explanation for why Klemp has not announced
          Darwin Gross' death is really second guessing your mahanta.
          Do you really know for certain why Klemp has kept silent?
          Many eckists (mostly 6ths and 7ths today) joined eckankar
          under Darwin and were given many initiations from him. Although,
          I didn't know Darwinmyself, I understand that he was very
          charismatic and personable--qualities lacking in Klemp btw.
          I read on a few sites where present eckists who knew Darwin
          made some very thoughtful and kind comments upon his passing.
          Yet,Klemp could not open his heart or acknowledge Darwin's
          passing himself. I would suspect that many eckists are
          disappointed by this.

          I find your comments, "Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to
          do whatever he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever
          he wants" rather odd in two ways. One, are you giving Darwin
          permission to do whatever he wants to do? And second, as for Soul
          being free to do whatever Soul wants . . . I don't think that is
          accurate. Regardless, there are always limitations and
          repercussions. I am wondering if this is the sort of freedom
          that eckists seek and believe eckankar is selling?


          And your next comment, "he (Darwin) can translate whenever he
          chooses to do so and that is his business." Is not exactly
          accurate either. Most of us do not have that ability to choose
          when we die . . . including Klemp!!!! Exception would be suicide.
          Twitchell, Gross and Klemp are/were all mortal and unlike
          "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" they age and die. Of course,
          those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't
          change or die . . . they never lived!! I saw some recent pics of
          Klemp and oh, my--he certainly hasn't slowed the aging
          process . . . you'd think he'd have some power to at least look
          somewhat youthful. But no, he's looking extremely old--maybe
          older than most his age!! Why is that, one should wonder?

          I think that in order for you to continue to believe in Klemp
          and the eckankar teachings, you, along with other eckists, have
          to do many twists and turns in rationalizing what Klemp says
          and teaches. There is a lot of second guessing and much time
          spent in trying to figure out what the hell Klemp meant in one
          silly talk and then another. Lots of wasted time to make the
          teachings valid and useful, eh?? But in the case of Darwin's
          death, it is a sin of omission.

          You have not offered any logical explanation to the question
          "when will Klemp mention Darwin Gross' Death"--however,
          you offer as evidence the delusional thinking that eckists develop
          when trying to make sense out of nonsense, and the pity is this
          is exactly what Klemp and eckankar promotes and expects from
          its followers. Logical thinking is something that cannot be used in
          eckankar . . . at all! It is a nutty belief system.

          Your comments actually make me feel very sad! But I hope you
          will hang around and keep reading. Check out the archives and if
          you become a member you can also access the files. Don't worry
          that by joining, we'd consider you to be a former eckist like
          most of us. We do have a few eckists who read and post. You
          certainly are free to enter and learn. Perhaps, one day you will
          see things differently.

          Best wishes,

          Mish
        • Gnothe Seauton
          Hello All,Eck Rat states the following to justify why Klemp Did Not mention the 972nd LEM s, Darwin Gross, death (translation): By the way, Harold Klemp
          Message 4 of 7 , May 8, 2009
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            Hello All,
            Eck Rat states the following to justify why Klemp 
            Did Not mention the 972nd LEM's, Darwin Gross, 
            death (translation):

            "By the way, Harold Klemp does not inform the world 
            of the translations of many other souls. For example, 
            many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did 
            not provide the world with a detailed list of the names 
            of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was 
            simply not necessary to do so."

            Of course, this is an illogical remark since the NEWS 
            media reports these soldiers' deaths. 

            However, are any of these soldiers EKists or friends 
            and relatives of EKists? 

            Wouldn't these soldiers, too, be under the "protection" 
            of the All Knowing/All Powerful Mahanta? Those who 
            were killed means Klemp wasn't doing his job, or living 
            up to his promises! This is WHY Klemp doesn't mention 
            (omits) any of these soldier's deaths (translations) 
            even though there might be a direct correlation and 
            tie-in to ECKists and to the M/LEM. Klemp is turning
            out to be a very minor "god," and a deceiver!

            However, let's get back to Why Klemp Did Not mention 
            Darwin's death. This is actually a much different sin of
            omission since Harry knew Darwin personally. Klemp 
            worked for Darwin at the ESC and was on DG's Literary
            Council and had meetings with Darwin. Darwin and
            his, then, wife had dinner with Harry and Marge. HK 
            was initiated, many times, by Darwin on both the outer 
            and inner planes (6-12)! 

            I remember reading in Klemp's book "Soul Travelers
            of the Far Country" (Chapter 7) that Darwin was 
            postponing making Klemp the LEM on Oct, 1980. 
            Klemp said that he was upset with the postponement 
            and when he got home he shared the news with his, 
            then, first wife Marge. Marge said to Harry, "Why 
            can't you be happy with just being an ECK Master?" 

            In May or June, 1980 Darwin had given Harry his 
            8th initiation. [For some reason (bait & switch?) 
            EKists have been led to believe that they can become 
            "EK Masters" after receiving the 8th initiation when 
            it's actually the 12th initiation that makes them 
            "eligible" to become EK Masters (Chapter 12, Shariyat- 
            Ki-Sugmad, Book 2)] 

            Darwin later (May or June 1981) gave Klemp his 
            9th (Soul Travelers of the Far Country, CH 7). That 
            means that Darwin, also, gave Klemp the 10th and 
            11th initiations and later, (Oct. 22, 1981), the 12th!  

            Anyway, this is, also, why Klemp needed to get
            rid of Darwin - so that he could become the Top 
            Dog and the Mahanta! He couldn't do that as
            long as Darwin, the Mahanta, was around. 

            Well, we don't really know if Darwin was
            actually the "Mahanta" (according to Klemp),
            and Darwin, years later, said that there was 
            only one New Age Mahanta and that was 
            Twitchell (for the next 1,000 years).

            But Darwin was given a "blue" carnation by 
            Gail at the 1971 EWWS. And, every ECKist 
            between 1971-1981 believed that Darwin was 
            the Mahanta. EKists saw DG (Dap Ren) on 
            the High Inner Planes and had "Mahanta" 
            ekperiences with him. Thus, Harry had to 
            depose Darwin in order to be the TOP DOG 
            (Mahanta) and not just a LEM! 

            Thus, we Now have more insight into WHY 
            Klemp didn't mention Darwin's death. Klemp 
            didn't want to take the EK Spotlight off himself. 
            He's vindictive, intolerant, lacks empathy, is 
            unloving, holds onto grudges and is two faced... 
            like the Astral Plane KAL! 

            Prometheus

            --- On Wed, 5/6/09, ratapesce <ratapesce@...> wrote:

            From: ratapesce <ratapesce@...>
            Subject: Re: When Will Klemp Mention Darwin Gross' Death?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 5:52 PM

            You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
            that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"

            The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
            Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.

            Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
            he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.

            He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
            that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
            with Eckankar.

            So there is no need to mention of his translation.

            By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
            of the translations of many other souls. For example,
            many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
            not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
            of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
            simply not necessary to do so.

            I hope this answers your question.


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          • mishmisha9
            This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just found it as I don t often check my emails . . . I hope you don t mind that I copy
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 6, 2009
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              This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just found it as I don't often check my emails . . . I hope you don't mind that I copy and pasted your comments here as they are a follow up to the discussion thread regarding Klemp's silence on Darwin's death. Obviously, Ratapesce finds logic of little use regarding belief in religions and I have to agree with him because there is little or no logic to be found in most religious teachings . . . Anyway, I find Ratapesce's comments interesting and I do agree also that it is his right to believe or follow whatever he wants as long as it is legal to do so! : )

              BTW, I am not angry about eckankar but I am interested in Truth. Eckankar and Klemp are rather amusing to me! LOL!

              Here's the message . . . thank you, Ratapesce:


              Hello Mish,

              First I thank you for your response to my post. I am glad someone actually took the time to read it and consider its contents. The following is my response to whay you wrote.

              I am open to anything and everything. Matter of fact I have been criticized, laughed at, ridiculed and who kinows what else during my lifetime. This has just made me stronger and has allowed me to truly know what I believe in. Only when someone tries very hard to challenge one's faith can one truly discover what they truly believe in. In my case I am a firm believer of Eckankar and I will do so for the rest of my life. What other people believe is really up to them. As Mother Teresa said "in the end it was never between you and them. It was always between you and God". So who one chooses God to be is up to them. As for me I know Sugmad, the Mahanta and Eckankar are for me. You have to decide what is right for you. I can not tell you what to do in that respect.

              You mention the truth about Klemp and to rationalize what is not really apparent due in part to Klemp's silence... it is really an org. created and based on lies. I have never tried to rationalize Eckankar or anything associtaed with Eckankar. A religion must be experienced, not rationalized. The mind uses logic to rationalize. This is the trap many philosophies fall into. They try to rationalize everything and soon realize that a lot of things just don't make any sense. Is Eckankar based on lies? Does anyone really know the true fabric of the universe? Does anyone really know the origins of man? Does anyone truly know why George Bush went to war against Iraq? Does anyone really know if the September 11, 2001 bombing was a done by AL-Qaeda or some other organization? What may appear to be truth today may appear to be a lie tomorrow and vice versa. Only a select few really know what occurs and I am not one of them. So I do not spend my energies trying to rationalize Religion or Christianity or Judaism or Eckankar or Islam or ATOM. It's really up to the individual what they want to believe in.

              You do not accept my statement that Darwin is free to do what he wants to do and that Soul is free to do what it wants to do and Darwin is free to do whatever he wants to do. The following is one of my experiences. A few years ago I had a heart attack. There I lay on the hospital bed being operated on. I wake up and I am talking to the Mahanta. The Mahanta asks me what I want to do. I reply I want to raise my children. I want to be there for my children and be their father. Shortly thereafter I wake up and the surgeon tells me I had a heart attack. I was surprised by what he said. A couple of years later a Higher Initiate in Eckankar informed me I was supposed to die during my heart attack. But I did not die. Instead I chose to live. The Mahanta allowed me to live even though my time was up and I should have translated. So you see as Soul we are free to do what we want. Of course that choice to live has responsibilities. Nothing is free. So you see as Soul we are free to choose what we want. We have free will. I read in a book once that a certain yogi was talking to his disciples. He then sat down and informed them his time was up. He layed down and translated. So you see some souls do know when they will die. He knew ahead of time when his time was up. It is very possible that Darwin knew when he was translating.

              You make the following statement:
              "Those Wonderful Eck Masters they age and die. Of course, those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't change or die . . . they never lived!!" Have you mentioned this to members of ATOM. So they use Boucharan Masters and not Eck Masters. They look like the same Masters to me. Maybe they do exist and maybe they don't exist. Would you believe me if I told you I actually spoke to a few of them in my dreams? Would you call me a nut case? You see we all have different experiences. Just because you have never met anyone does not mean they don't exist. I never met Stephen Harper. But I believe he exists.

              Then you state Klemp certainly hasn't slowed the aging process. On planet earth we all have physical bodies. Paul Twitchell had a physical body. I have a physical body and Harold Klemp has a physical body. Any powers that we have should be used wisely. If someone is able to change their body such that it does not get old, then good for them. How many humans do you know that will never die? It's only a physical body. Maybe the human race was designed to have a physical body which gets old and dies? Maybe Klemp's body is attacked by the Kal and can only take so much? Maybe Paul Twitchell's body was also attacked by the Kal and it got old too? Maybe Darwin's body got attacked by the Kal and got old too? The point is who really cares if anyone can make their bodies immortal? I believe my soul is immortal and that is all that counts. My physical body is only temporary.

              Overall I sense that you are upset at Eckankar and at Harold Klemp. One of the fundamental principles of any true religion is the Golden Heart. Eckankar makes reference to the Golden Heart all the time. Give Love to all and hatred to none. Harold Klemp does not wish anyone any harm. Fact is Darwin left Eckankar many years ago. He left long before I joined Eckankar. So I can truly say I know very little of Darwin. I googled his name a few times just to see what he was doing. I found the website of ATOM.org. I read what was in it and then left. I concluded Darwin found his own path and I was happy for him

              Now we come to when Klemp will mention Darwin's death. I have no idea if Harold Klemp will ever make a public statement concerning the death of Darwin Gross. If it makes you feel better Wikipedia states Darwin Gross died on March 8, 2008. I hope that makes you feel better. Now maybe we can all be happy and try to get along as a species. The Kal is very good at manipulating us and testing us. Do you see the tricks of the Kal? The Kal is very,very good at what it does. Everytime someone has a negative emotion it is because the Kal was able to get to them. Imagine if you were a true God Realized Master. Would anything really get to you? Would you get angry?
              Think about this and then you will see how the Kal plays tricks with us and tries to fool us. The trick is to get to a point where the Kal can't affect you anymore. Now this is very hard to do. It is almost impossible to do. But we try anyway.

              So be cool, get down and stay loose, bro. It isn''t worth getting upset about. The whole physical un iverse is one huge computer program called the Matrix and Kal Niranjan or the Devil or whatever name you want to give it created this computer program. The sooner you realize this the better it will be for you. Try rationalizing that just for fun. You want a real challenge, try rationalizing the Matrix we live in. Very soon you will see the tricks of the Kal Niranjan.

              Be cool, hang loose and stay calm, bro. And whatever you do, don't get angry.

              Baraka Bashad,

              Ratapesce.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Just a few comments in response to what
              > ratapesce wrote:
              >
              > "You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
              > that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"
              >
              > The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
              > Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.
              >
              > Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
              > he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.
              >
              > He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
              > that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
              > with Eckankar.
              >
              > So there is no need to mention of his translation.
              >
              > By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
              > of the translations of many other souls. For example,
              > many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
              > not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
              > of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
              > simply not necessary to do so.
              >
              > I hope this answers your question."
              >
              > *************************************************************
              >
              > Hi, Ratapesce!
              >
              > Glad you are reading ESA. Many eckists would close their
              > eyes to this site, but the fact that you are reading some of
              > the posts might be a good start for you finding the truth
              > about Klemp and eckankar. Perhaps, you have spent a lot
              > of time devoted to the teachings . . . and in order for them
              > to work, you need to rationalize what is not really apparent
              > due in part to Klemp's silence as in the case of Darwin's
              > death and the fact that eckankar promotes secrecy. Not to
              > mention it is really an org. created and based on lies.
              >
              > Anyway, your explanation for why Klemp has not announced
              > Darwin Gross' death is really second guessing your mahanta.
              > Do you really know for certain why Klemp has kept silent?
              > Many eckists (mostly 6ths and 7ths today) joined eckankar
              > under Darwin and were given many initiations from him. Although,
              > I didn't know Darwinmyself, I understand that he was very
              > charismatic and personable--qualities lacking in Klemp btw.
              > I read on a few sites where present eckists who knew Darwin
              > made some very thoughtful and kind comments upon his passing.
              > Yet,Klemp could not open his heart or acknowledge Darwin's
              > passing himself. I would suspect that many eckists are
              > disappointed by this.
              >
              > I find your comments, "Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to
              > do whatever he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever
              > he wants" rather odd in two ways. One, are you giving Darwin
              > permission to do whatever he wants to do? And second, as for Soul
              > being free to do whatever Soul wants . . . I don't think that is
              > accurate. Regardless, there are always limitations and
              > repercussions. I am wondering if this is the sort of freedom
              > that eckists seek and believe eckankar is selling?
              >
              >
              > And your next comment, "he (Darwin) can translate whenever he
              > chooses to do so and that is his business." Is not exactly
              > accurate either. Most of us do not have that ability to choose
              > when we die . . . including Klemp!!!! Exception would be suicide.
              > Twitchell, Gross and Klemp are/were all mortal and unlike
              > "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" they age and die. Of course,
              > those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't
              > change or die . . . they never lived!! I saw some recent pics of
              > Klemp and oh, my--he certainly hasn't slowed the aging
              > process . . . you'd think he'd have some power to at least look
              > somewhat youthful. But no, he's looking extremely old--maybe
              > older than most his age!! Why is that, one should wonder?
              >
              > I think that in order for you to continue to believe in Klemp
              > and the eckankar teachings, you, along with other eckists, have
              > to do many twists and turns in rationalizing what Klemp says
              > and teaches. There is a lot of second guessing and much time
              > spent in trying to figure out what the hell Klemp meant in one
              > silly talk and then another. Lots of wasted time to make the
              > teachings valid and useful, eh?? But in the case of Darwin's
              > death, it is a sin of omission.
              >
              > You have not offered any logical explanation to the question
              > "when will Klemp mention Darwin Gross' Death"--however,
              > you offer as evidence the delusional thinking that eckists develop
              > when trying to make sense out of nonsense, and the pity is this
              > is exactly what Klemp and eckankar promotes and expects from
              > its followers. Logical thinking is something that cannot be used in
              > eckankar . . . at all! It is a nutty belief system.
              >
              > Your comments actually make me feel very sad! But I hope you
              > will hang around and keep reading. Check out the archives and if
              > you become a member you can also access the files. Don't worry
              > that by joining, we'd consider you to be a former eckist like
              > most of us. We do have a few eckists who read and post. You
              > certainly are free to enter and learn. Perhaps, one day you will
              > see things differently.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              >
              > Mish
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Mish and All, This so-called Eckist, Ratapesce, is the typical delusional religious follower! I ll reply to his illogical comments below Mish s.
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 8, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Mish and All,
                This so-called Eckist, Ratapesce, is the
                typical delusional religious follower!

                I'll reply to his illogical comments below
                Mish's.

                Prometheus

                mish wrote:

                This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just
                found it as I don't often check my emails . . . I hope you don't mind that I
                copy and pasted your comments here as they are a follow up to the discussion
                thread regarding Klemp's silence on Darwin's death. Obviously, Ratapesce finds
                logic of little use regarding belief in religions and I have to agree with him
                because there is little or no logic to be found in most religious teachings . .
                . Anyway, I find Ratapesce's comments interesting and I do agree also that it is
                his right to believe or follow whatever he wants as long as it is legal to do
                so! : )

                BTW, I am not angry about eckankar but I am interested in Truth. Eckankar and
                Klemp are rather amusing to me! LOL!

                Here's the message . . . thank you, Ratapesce:


                RATAPESCE WROTE:

                Hello Mish,

                First I thank you for your response to my post. I am glad someone
                actually took the time to read it and consider its contents. The following
                is my response to what you wrote.

                I am open to anything and everything.

                Matter of fact I have been criticized, laughed at, ridiculed and who
                knows what else during my lifetime.

                This has just made me stronger and has allowed me to truly know
                what I believe in.


                P- It has closed your mind and
                made you more delusional via
                your ego protecting your little
                "self" and your little world with
                rationalizations. No religion has
                ever worked for the real Spiritual
                Truth-Seeker! Religions are the
                "Easy Way" for those who like to
                pretend "as if" they are above others
                with initiations, etc.


                Only when someone tries very hard to challenge one's faith can one
                truly discover what they truly believe in. In my case I am a firm believer
                of Eckankar and I will do so for the rest of my life. What other people
                believe is really up to them. As Mother Teresa said "in the end it was
                never between you and them. It was always between you and God".

                P- But Klemp is not God, although, he
                does claim to be higher than Mother
                Teresa's 4th Mental Plane "God."

                So who one chooses God to be is up to them. As for me I know
                Sugmad, the Mahanta and Eckankar are for me. You have to decide
                what is right for you. I can not tell you what to do in that respect.


                P- Well, it Not another manmade religion!
                Hpwever his first statement is illogical.
                An Eckist is Not permitted to be "open
                to anything and everything," especially,
                after the 2nd initiation! And, there are
                Guidelines and Training requirements
                which limit what a chela or H.I. can say
                and do! BTW-What ever happened to
                Eckankar's religious promise (Bait and
                Switch) of Spiritual Freedom and Self-
                Mastery in THIS lifetime? Why hasn't
                Klemp "speeded-up" initiations by now
                and removed the glass ceiling of the
                7th initiation by now?



                You mention the truth about Klemp and to rationalize what
                is not really apparent due in part to Klemp's silence... it is really
                an org. created and based on lies.

                I have never tried to rationalize Eckankar or anything associtaed
                with Eckankar. A religion must be experienced, not rationalized.

                The mind uses logic to rationalize.

                This is the trap many philosophies fall into. They try to rationalize
                everything and soon realize that a lot of things just don't make any
                sense.

                Is Eckankar based on lies? Does anyone really know the true fabric
                of the universe?

                Does anyone really know the origins of man? Does anyone truly know why
                George Bush went to war against Iraq? Does anyone really know if the September
                11, 2001 bombing was a done by AL-Qaeda or some other organization?

                What may appear to be truth today may appear to be a lie tomorrow
                and vice versa.

                Only a select few really know what occurs and I am not one of them.

                So I do not spend my energies trying to rationalize Religion or Christianity
                or Judaism or Eckankar or Islam or ATOM. It's really up to the individual
                what they want to believe in.


                P- Ratapesce is "rationalizing" now! I don't
                think he understands the definition of the
                word rationalize. Experiencing a religion
                is to "rationalize!" Look at the Myth, etc.
                etc.! And, what does the truth of the Universe
                have to do with a conman like Twitchell
                lying? Nothing! This guy, Rata, has his
                head stuck in the sand. He doesn't care
                about Truth if it becomes too inconvenient
                or cause him to actually have to think!


                You do not accept my statement that Darwin is free to do what
                he wants to do and that Soul is free to do what it wants to do and
                Darwin is free to do whatever he wants to do.

                The following is one of my experiences. A few years ago I had a
                heart attack. There I lay on the hospital bed being operated on.
                I wake up and I am talking to the Mahanta.

                The Mahanta asks me what I want to do. I reply I want to raise
                my children. I want to be there for my children and be their father.

                Shortly thereafter I wake up and the surgeon tells me I had a heart
                attack. I was surprised by what he said.

                A couple of years later a Higher Initiate in Eckankar informed me
                I was supposed to die during my heart attack. But I did not die.
                Instead I chose to live.

                The Mahanta allowed me to live even though my time was up and
                I should have translated.

                So you see as Soul we are free to do what we want.

                Of course that choice to live has responsibilities. Nothing is free.

                So you see as Soul we are free to choose what we want. We have free
                will.


                P- Rata is speculating about Darwin. He's already
                said that he doesn't "know" what others know (the
                experts like Klemp). What Rata doesn't realize is
                that the "Mahanta" he was talking to was himself
                (Soul)! I know this because Twit created the Mahanta
                title for himself in Jan. 1969. BTW- If he was supposed
                to die (according to the H.I.) and Rata chose to live
                then who was in charge? He says that the Mahanta
                allowed him to live, but then he states that Soul is
                free to do what "we" want. Rata sounds confused.
                FYI- It's true that "Nothing is free" in Eckankar...
                including the maintaining of one's initiations!



                I read in a book once that a certain yogi was talking to his disciples.
                He then sat down and informed them his time was up. He layed down
                and translated. So you see some souls do know when they will die.
                He knew ahead of time when his time was up. It is very possible that
                Darwin knew when he was translating.


                P- Good one! However this wasn't
                the case for Twitchell... the 1st LEM/M.
                Twitchell died before he could appoint
                a replacement! Therefore, Twitchell
                wasn't even as "high" in consciousness
                as a yogi!


                You (Mish) make the following statement:
                "Those Wonderful Eck Masters they age and die. Of course, those
                wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't change or
                die . . . they never lived!!"

                Have you mentioned this to members of ATOM. So they use Boucharan
                Masters and not Eck Masters. They look like the same Masters to me.
                Maybe they do exist and maybe they don't exist.

                Would you believe me if I told you I actually spoke to a few of them
                in my dreams? Would you call me a nut case?

                You see we all have different experiences. Just because you have never
                met anyone does not mean they don't exist. I never met Stephen Harper.
                But I believe he exists.


                P- The EK Masters are fictional characters
                that Twit created. This is why there is only
                one female EK Master out of thousands of
                fictional "Masters." So what if you "dreamed"
                of seeing them. When one looks at their pictures
                and reads about them with a desire to speak
                to them or see them one will dream of them!
                You've programmed your mind to expect and
                desire this. I've dreamed of them too when
                I was in EK! Big deal! I self-hypnotized myself
                by focusing upon them. BTW- Just because
                we've never met doesn't mean you don't exist
                in matter, energy, space, or time, however,
                these fictional EK masters and angels, and
                Mickey Mouse, etc. only exist in our thoughts,
                dreams, or minds. Wait, Mickey was a bad
                example... I've actually had my picture taken
                with him versus 500 year old Rebazar!
                BTW- ATOM and MSIA are just copies of
                the false teachings of Eckankar which is
                itself a copy of the false Sant Mat (living
                Master) teachings.


                Then you state Klemp certainly hasn't slowed the aging process. On planet
                earth we all have physical bodies. Paul Twitchell had a physical body. I have
                a physical body and Harold Klemp has a physical body. Any powers that
                we have should be used wisely.

                If someone is able to change their body such that it does not get old,
                then good for them.

                How many humans do you know that will never die?
                It's only a physical body.

                Maybe the human race was designed to have a physical body
                which gets old and dies?
                Maybe Klemp's body is attacked by the Kal and can only take so much?
                Maybe Paul Twitchell's body was also attacked by the Kal and it got old too?
                Maybe Darwin's body got attacked by the Kal and got old too?

                The point is who really cares if anyone can make their bodies immortal?
                I believe my soul is immortal and that is all that counts. My physical body
                is only temporary.


                P- WOW! That's a lot of "maybes!" What about
                500 year old Rebazar who has "never died?"
                Klemp is supposed to be the bestest and highest
                Mahanta ever! So, why's he aging this rapidly!
                BTW- Chelas shouldn't be second guessing the
                Mahanta with "maybe" this or "maybe" that.
                As a former H.I. you should take my advice
                on that one. You said, "Who really cares if
                anyone can make their body immortal?"
                You should care because Eckankar is held
                together with the glue of Belief and Faith in
                the 500 year old living Torchbearer... Rebazar
                Tarzs! He's the fill-in LEM for Sudar Singh
                so that Paul could become the 971st LEM,
                and Rebazar filled-in again after Twit died
                until Gail could have Darwin given the title.
                And, "if" all of this isn't true then none of
                the rest is as well. Thus, Klemp is Not a Mahanta
                and your religion is as false as all the others...
                maybe (probably) more so!


                Overall I sense that you are upset at Eckankar and at Harold Klemp. One of the
                fundamental principles of any true religion is the Golden Heart. Eckankar makes
                reference to the Golden Heart all the time. Give Love to all and hatred to none.
                Harold Klemp does not wish anyone any harm. Fact is Darwin left Eckankar many
                years ago. He left long before I joined Eckankar. So I can truly say I know
                very little of Darwin. I googled his name a few times just to see what he was
                doing. I found the website of ATOM.org. I read what was in it and then left. I
                concluded Darwin found his own path and I was happy for him.


                P- Have you been reading "The Way
                of Eckankar Series" of Lectures that
                have been posted here on ESA? Paul
                stated that Love and Wisdom were
                of the lower planes and that the focus
                s/b on the Ultimate and Not upon
                the aspects and attributes of God.
                Besides, this "Golden Heart" talk
                is actually referring to the 4th Astral
                Heart chakra which is even lower
                that the 6th Astral Tisra Til chakra.
                HK's taking his chelas backwards!
                BTW-Why is Klemp fearful of mentioning
                Darwin since he's dead? Can't he say
                something nice. Darwin did give HK
                many initiations... probably the 6-12!
                Actually, it's become too late for Klemp
                to say anything now. Too much time
                has gone by. It does show that Klemp
                holds onto grudges (Anger) even when
                he has gotten the upper hand.



                Now we come to when Klemp will mention Darwin's death.

                I have no idea if Harold Klemp will ever make a public statement
                concerning the death of Darwin Gross.

                If it makes you feel better Wikipedia states Darwin Gross died on March 8, 2008.
                I hope that makes you feel better. Now maybe we can all be happy and try to get
                along as a species. The Kal is very good at manipulating us and testing us.

                Do you see the tricks of the Kal? The Kal is very, very good at what it does.
                Everytime someone has a negative emotion it is because the Kal was able
                to get to them.


                P- The KAL rules all lower plane
                religions and Eckankar is lower
                plane. The EK Books, Talks, Tapes,
                CDs, Jewelry, Donations, ID Cards
                with Numbers and Titles, the RESA
                Hierarchy with positions etc. are
                all of the Lower Planes and KAL
                rules these Planes and tricks those
                in religions! You're right... it's his
                job and he does it well! KAL has
                tricked you, again, blinded you
                to the Truth! You (Soul) will never
                be "free" with the Middleman Mahanta
                codependency.



                Imagine if you were a true God Realized Master. Would anything really
                get to you? Would you get angry?


                P- Klemp gets angry! And, it's
                more than tough love when it
                involves Darwin's death, or a
                non-Eckist like that "Third"
                Temporary Postal Clerk that
                HK had never met!


                Think about this and then you will see how the Kal plays tricks with us and
                tries to fool us. The trick is to get to a point where the Kal can't affect you
                anymore. Now this is very hard to do. It is almost impossible to do. But we try
                anyway.


                P- Yes, yes! We know that Darwin died
                on March 8, 2008, however, most Eckists
                don't! What's funny is that "you" don't see
                the tricks of the KAL or his agent Klemp!
                Klemp was the real Black Magician when
                he tricked Darwin. HK mentions, in his
                Autobiography, that it was his idea to
                meet with Darwin at the ESC where he
                worked in a Sound Proofed Dark Room
                to discuss the transition plans with Darwin.
                The room had been Sound Proofed prior
                to Eckankar buying/renting the building.
                Klemp mentions that, Darwin "hesitated"
                when he found out that it was a Sound
                Proofed Dark Room (No Light and Sound)...
                get it? However, Klemp told him that it
                would be more private to discuss the LEM
                transition details there. BTW-You will have
                to go to Soul Travelers of the Far Country
                (Ch. 7) to see that this room was also Sound
                Proofed. Klemp omits this detail in his
                "Autobiography of a Modern Profit." LOL!
                Anyway, HK realized the implications
                of sharing this "Sound Proof" detail, along
                with the Dark Room detail after-the-fact.
                Thus, he did a rewrite in his Autobiography
                to cover-up this tidbit of truth. Check it
                out for yourself!

                FYI- Klemp got "angry" with that Third
                Temporary Postal Clerk in the 09/2003
                H.I. Letter! Joan was at the Post Office to
                check on a package and didn't want to show
                her I.D., first, before the "Third" fill-in
                clerk went to look for it. Why should he
                look for a package when the customer
                might not have their ID with them... this
                would violate The Law of Economy! Plus,
                neither Joan or Harry realized this or the
                fact that this was a "test" for both of them
                that they Failed! Notice that Klemp mentions
                twice that there were "THREE" fill-in clerks.
                Thus, The Principle of the Threes was
                over-looked as well! Anyhow, Joan got
                all huffy and felt insulted that he didn't
                bow down to her (as they do at the ESC).
                She told Harold about the incident when
                she got home and he got angry and ended
                up writing about it (according to Joan's
                version) in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter. HK was
                angry that Joan's ego was, seemingly, insulted.
                This effect cause HK to write some mean-
                spirited things about the clerk (whom he
                had never met) and shared these feelings
                in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter. Thus, this is
                written proof, in Klemp's own words, that
                he is neither God-Realized or a Master
                Mahanta since he showed ANGER! Read
                it and see for yourself! it's in the FILES.


                So be cool, get down and stay loose, bro. It isn''t worth getting
                upset about. The whole physical universe is one huge computer
                program called the Matrix

                and Kal Niranjan or the Devil or whatever name you want to give
                it created this computer program. The sooner you realize this the
                better it will be for you.

                Try rationalizing that just for fun. You want a real challenge, try
                rationalizing the Matrix we live in. Very soon you will see the tricks
                of the Kal Niranjan.


                P- Actually, in the Shariyat Book 2 index,
                PT has the Devil and Satan listed and
                mentions that this is the KAL... the "God"
                that the 2nd and 4th Plane religions worship
                (Eckankar included). Page 385, in Klemp's
                Autobiography, states this fact. Thus, it's
                Not "whatever name you want to call it."
                It's what you, as an EKist, and as a "follower"
                of Klemp (the LEM/M) calls it!

                BTW- Try living in Reality and with Truth
                versus rationalizing. I'm thinking that the
                word that you were looking for was "imagining"
                (or visualizing) the Matrix versus "rationalizing"
                the Matrix. But, you are correct that it does
                help to pretend and rationalize when dealing
                with mythological religious dogma, distortions,
                embellishments, and their hierarchy (The RESA
                goon squad/police) in order to control their
                gullible, fearful, trusting, and dreamy believers.
                Eckists "need" a religion and the Ruhani Satsang/
                New Age mindset with Twitchell's twist is
                as good as any. That's what makes it sad
                that you've fallen for the scam of religion
                in, yet, another lifetime!


                Be cool, hang loose and stay calm, bro. And whatever you do, don't get angry.

                P- Ditto back at you! However,
                I don't think "Mish" is a "bro".... bro!

                Ratapesce.

                mishmisha wrote:
                >
                >
                > Just a few comments in response to what
                > ratapesce wrote:
                >
                > "You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
                > that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"
                >
                > The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
                > Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.
                >
                > Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
                > he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.
                >
                > He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
                > that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
                > with Eckankar.
                >
                > So there is no need to mention of his translation.
                >
                > By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
                > of the translations of many other souls. For example,
                > many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
                > not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
                > of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
                > simply not necessary to do so.
                >
                > I hope this answers your question."
                >
                > *************************************************************
                >
                > Hi, Ratapesce!
                >
                > Glad you are reading ESA. Many eckists would close their
                > eyes to this site, but the fact that you are reading some of
                > the posts might be a good start for you finding the truth
                > about Klemp and eckankar. Perhaps, you have spent a lot
                > of time devoted to the teachings . . . and in order for them
                > to work, you need to rationalize what is not really apparent
                > due in part to Klemp's silence as in the case of Darwin's
                > death and the fact that eckankar promotes secrecy. Not to
                > mention it is really an org. created and based on lies.
                >
                > Anyway, your explanation for why Klemp has not announced
                > Darwin Gross' death is really second guessing your mahanta.
                > Do you really know for certain why Klemp has kept silent?
                > Many eckists (mostly 6ths and 7ths today) joined eckankar
                > under Darwin and were given many initiations from him. Although,
                > I didn't know Darwinmyself, I understand that he was very
                > charismatic and personable--qualities lacking in Klemp btw.
                > I read on a few sites where present eckists who knew Darwin
                > made some very thoughtful and kind comments upon his passing.
                > Yet,Klemp could not open his heart or acknowledge Darwin's
                > passing himself. I would suspect that many eckists are
                > disappointed by this.
                >
                > I find your comments, "Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to
                > do whatever he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever
                > he wants" rather odd in two ways. One, are you giving Darwin
                > permission to do whatever he wants to do? And second, as for Soul
                > being free to do whatever Soul wants . . . I don't think that is
                > accurate. Regardless, there are always limitations and
                > repercussions. I am wondering if this is the sort of freedom
                > that eckists seek and believe eckankar is selling?
                >
                >
                > And your next comment, "he (Darwin) can translate whenever he
                > chooses to do so and that is his business." Is not exactly
                > accurate either. Most of us do not have that ability to choose
                > when we die . . . including Klemp!!!! Exception would be suicide.
                > Twitchell, Gross and Klemp are/were all mortal and unlike
                > "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" they age and die. Of course,
                > those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't
                > change or die . . . they never lived!! I saw some recent pics of
                > Klemp and oh, my--he certainly hasn't slowed the aging
                > process . . . you'd think he'd have some power to at least look
                > somewhat youthful. But no, he's looking extremely old--maybe
                > older than most his age!! Why is that, one should wonder?
                >
                > I think that in order for you to continue to believe in Klemp
                > and the eckankar teachings, you, along with other eckists, have
                > to do many twists and turns in rationalizing what Klemp says
                > and teaches. There is a lot of second guessing and much time
                > spent in trying to figure out what the hell Klemp meant in one
                > silly talk and then another. Lots of wasted time to make the
                > teachings valid and useful, eh?? But in the case of Darwin's
                > death, it is a sin of omission.
                >
                > You have not offered any logical explanation to the question
                > "when will Klemp mention Darwin Gross' Death"--however,
                > you offer as evidence the delusional thinking that eckists develop
                > when trying to make sense out of nonsense, and the pity is this
                > is exactly what Klemp and eckankar promotes and expects from
                > its followers. Logical thinking is something that cannot be used in
                > eckankar . . . at all! It is a nutty belief system.
                >
                > Your comments actually make me feel very sad! But I hope you
                > will hang around and keep reading. Check out the archives and if
                > you become a member you can also access the files. Don't worry
                > that by joining, we'd consider you to be a former eckist like
                > most of us. We do have a few eckists who read and post. You
                > certainly are free to enter and learn. Perhaps, one day you will
                > see things differently.
                >
                > Best wishes,
                >
                > Mish
              • ctecvie
                ... ******Hi Mish, Thanks for posting this! I find Ratapesce s comments also interesting and so typical of a religious follower!. I wanted to post this earlier
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 16, 2009
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                  > This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just found it as I don't often check my emails . . . I hope you don't mind that I copy and pasted your comments here as they are a follow up to the discussion thread regarding Klemp's silence on Darwin's death. Obviously, Ratapesce finds logic of little use regarding belief in religions and I have to agree with him because there is little or no logic to be found in most religious teachings . . . Anyway, I find Ratapesce's comments interesting and I do agree also that it is his right to believe or follow whatever he wants as long as it is legal to do so! : )

                  ******Hi Mish,

                  Thanks for posting this! I find Ratapesce's comments also interesting and so typical of a religious follower!. I wanted to post this earlier but got distracted, but here it is, eventually!

                  > BTW, I am not angry about eckankar but I am interested in Truth. Eckankar and Klemp are rather amusing to me! LOL!

                  ******I agree because anger would be wasted as eckankar won't go away but I do believe that information about the dark side of eckankar is absolutely necessary as the ekkies tend to describe eckankar as a path of pure love, which it isn't! So, see more comments below

                  > Here's the message . . . thank you, Ratapesce:


                  > Hello Mish,


                  > First I thank you for your response to my post. I am glad someone actually took the time to read it and consider its contents. The following is my response to whay you wrote.>
                  I am open to anything and everything. Matter of fact I have been criticized, laughed at, ridiculed and who knows what else during my lifetime. This has just made me stronger and has allowed me to truly know what I believe in. Only when someone tries very hard to challenge one's faith can one truly discover what they truly believe in.

                  ******That is sad - but it's certainly not only ekkies who have to endure ridiculisation in their lifetime! I agree though that this kind of experience makes us stronger.

                  >In my case I am a firm believer of Eckankar and I will do so for the rest of my life. What other people believe is really up to them. As Mother Teresa said "in the end it was never between you and them. It was always between you and God". So who one chooses God to be is up to them. As for me I know Sugmad, the Mahanta and Eckankar are for me. You have to decide what is right for you. I can not tell you what to do in that respect.

                  *****I keep wondering every time somebody talks about god like that, would god really be so interested in what we think?? Doesn't he (or she, or it) have better things to do? I do agree that belief is a very personal thing. I believe in life and its wonders; there is so much to be grateful for! No need for a god in this respect. Furthermore, I have accepted that not every question can be answered and that some don't even require an answer. However, that's what religions are trying all the time - seeking answers and thus keeping the flock - and their money - close to the master! LOL!

                  > You mention the truth about Klemp and to rationalize what is not really apparent due in part to Klemp's silence... it is really an org. created and based on lies. I have never tried to rationalize Eckankar or anything associtaed with Eckankar.
                  ****** Yeah, as Mish said - that's the point! You don't question eckankar when you'd better! Then, of course, it would fall apart. That's why it's gross to even mention the mind! LOL!

                  >A religion must be experienced, not rationalized. The mind uses logic to rationalize. This is the trap many philosophies fall into.
                  ****** And the trap the ekkies and the followers of other religions fall into too! It's just the other way round - they fall into the trap of not questioning at all!

                  >They try to rationalize everything and soon realize that a lot of things just don't make any sense. Is Eckankar based on lies? Does anyone really know the true fabric of the universe? Does anyone really know the origins of man? Does anyone truly know why George Bush went to war against Iraq? Does anyone really know if the September 11, 2001 bombing was a done by AL-Qaeda or some other organization?
                  ****** How important is knowing the absolute truth to all these questions, and what exactly is the "absolute truth"? Doesn't it quite depend on your personal truth/point of view?

                  >What may appear to be truth today may appear to be a lie tomorrow and vice versa. Only a select few really know what occurs and I am not one of them. So I do not spend my energies trying to rationalize Religion or Christianity or Judaism or Eckankar or Islam or ATOM. It's really up to the individual what they want to believe in.
                  ******I think that not even a select few know it - for me, for a start, there are no "select few"! That's why I don't spend my energy in following any religion and their "masters". Masters are everywhere - in my work and private environment, as colleagues and friends, and I can learn from them anywhere and everywhere. No need to follow fictitional masters and spending money on religious organisations!

                  > You do not accept my statement that Darwin is free to do what he wants to do and that Soul is free to do what it wants to do and Darwin is free to do whatever he wants to do.
                  ****** Wow, all the "what he/it wants to do"s make one a bit confused, don't they! LOL!

                  >The following is one of my experiences. A few years ago I had a heart attack. There I lay on the hospital bed being operated on. I wake up and I am talking to the Mahanta. The Mahanta asks me what I want to do. I reply I want to raise my children. I want to be there for my children and be their father. Shortly thereafter I wake up and the surgeon tells me I had a heart attack. I was surprised by what he said. A couple of years later a Higher Initiate in Eckankar informed me I was supposed to die during my heart attack. But I did not die.
                  ****** Now I'd really like to know how this HI could know that you were supposed to die?? Was he there?? Somebody I knew some time ago told me about a similar experience where she could choose to either go back and live or just leave for good. The conclusion I have drawn is that there might be incidents in life which I've come to call "points of translation", as opposite to "a point of no return". When an individual hits a point of translation, they can still choose what they want while at the point of no return, they have to go.

                  >Instead I chose to live. The Mahanta allowed me to live even though my time was up and I should have translated. So you see as Soul we are free to do what we want..
                  ****** See above. I don't think we (=what you call "Soul") can do what we want, not always.

                  >Of course that choice to live has responsibilities. Nothing is free. So you see as Soul we are free to choose what we want. We have free will.
                  ******Not in all instances, no. I think we have free will within the limits of what we are and what our mission is, which experiences we need for a !greater good! (or for our own good).

                  >I read in a book once that a certain yogi was talking to his disciples. He then sat down and informed them his time was up. He layed down and translated. So you see some souls do know when they will die. He knew ahead of time when his time was up. It is very possible that Darwin knew when he was translating.
                  ******Well, maybe they did, and maybe they didn't! Who can say? I wouldn't dare make such a sweeping statement - but well, as you are an ekkie and have all the higher wisdom, of course you can! LOL!

                  > You make the following statement:
                  > "Those Wonderful Eck Masters they age and die. Of course, those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't change or die . . . they never lived!!" Have you mentioned this to members of ATOM.
                  ****** Not necessary, as I'm fairly sure that Mish doesn't believe in Atom either! So don't I! LOL! I can live my life without any master except the ones I encounter in my everyday life!

                  >So they use Boucharan Masters and not Eck Masters. They look like the same Masters to me. Maybe they do exist and maybe they don't exist. Would you believe me if I told you I actually spoke to a few of them in my dreams? Would you call me a nut case? You see we all have different experiences. Just because you have never met anyone does not mean they don't exist. I never met Stephen Harper. But I believe he exists.
                  ******This has nothing to do with being a nutcase or not, in my view. Of course you see the beings your path requires you see. If you really believe in something and are following a path earnestly, of course you will end up encountering the beings your path is dealing with! This phenomenon is plain and simply a psychological reality and nothing else. Meeting or not meeting personalities whose existence is proven (as is Stephen Harper's) is a whole different thing, compared with fictitional masters nobody ever heard of and who are a reality only within eckankar. Claiming that people like Rami Nuri are eck masters doesn't prove anything - who else outside of ekkiekar could certify this?

                  > Then you state Klemp certainly hasn't slowed the aging process. On planet earth we all have physical bodies. Paul Twitchell had a physical body. I have a physical body and Harold Klemp has a physical body.
                  ****** Yeah, and look at Rebbie Tarzs! He doesn't appear a day older than 46, and then he is 500 years old or older! Maybe this has to do with the fact that nobody has ever seen Rebbie other than in dreams and ekkie experiences! Show me anybody who has seen Rebbie in physical reality! Thus it is easy to say Rebbie is 500 years old, and look at him when you are confronted with good old (in the true sense of the word!) Harry in his physical body! Accept that eckankar can't prove what they are claiming because Klemp is about 66 and looks every day like it and even older than that!

                  >Any powers that we have should be used wisely. If someone is able to change their body such that it does not get old, then good for them.
                  ****** Again, look at Rebbie Tarzs! And eckankar does claim that the bodies of the ekkie masters don't age - too bad that Harry can't prove this with his own body!

                  >How many humans do you know that will never die? It's only a physical body. Maybe the human race was designed to have a physical body which gets old and dies? Maybe Klemp's body is attacked by the Kal and can only take so much? Maybe Paul Twitchell's body was also attacked by the Kal and it got old too? Maybe Darwin's body got attacked by the Kal and got old too? The point is who really cares if anyone can make their bodies immortal? I believe my soul is immortal and that is all that counts. My physical body is only temporary.
                  ******Yeah, and who is Kal by the way? Everything that's bad is ascribed to the dealings of Kal. Poor guy, he always gets the blame whereas suggie is always the good guy! LOL! Of course we have bodies that get old and die, it's a well and widely known fact! LOL! Again, how about this claim of eckankar that the bodies of the masters don't get old? It's really (Re)bizarre. LOL!

                  > Overall I sense that you are upset at Eckankar and at Harold Klemp.
                  ****** You "sense"? Did you get that on the inner? LOL! As we all were once part of the organisation we feel we have the right to speak out. This has nothing to do with being upset. Of course, shortly after leaving eckankar, I felt like a fool of having been duped so much! This has changed over time and now I'm just leading my happy life without any restrictions!

                  >One of the fundamental principles of any true religion is the Golden Heart. Eckankar makes reference to the Golden Heart all the time.
                  ****** Yeah, another psychological reality is "talk most about what you don't have"! Eckankar is not about love, not at all. It's about power, membership and money!

                  >Give Love to all and hatred to none. Harold Klemp does not wish anyone any harm.
                  ****** Is that so? Did you ever read Harry wishing the wrath of the eck over all those who might influence ekkies into leaving eckankar? Well, Harry certainly can't take a joke in this case!

                  >Fact is Darwin left Eckankar many years ago. He left long before I joined Eckankar. So I can truly say I know very little of Darwin. I googled his name a few times just to see what he was doing. I found the website of ATOM.org. I read what was in it and then left. I concluded Darwin found his own path and I was happy for him
                  ****** Well, it's your choice what you spend your time on ... LOL!

                  > Now we come to when Klemp will mention Darwin's death. I have no idea if Harold Klemp will ever make a public statement concerning the death of Darwin Gross. If it makes you feel better Wikipedia states Darwin Gross died on March 8, 2008. I hope that makes you feel better.
                  ****** Ratapesce, it's not a question if it makes Mish, or anyone else for that part, feel better. You're talking in circles around the real issue: Darwin was the MAHANTA, THE LIVING ECK MASTER at the time, and he was SEEN, RESPECTED and WORSHIPPED AS SUCH and CALLED that. Now don't you find it odd that, even if Darwin "fell from grace" later, Harry isn't inclined to lose even a few words about that? Well, we all know that eckankar wants to make the "fall from grace" forgotten, but it can't be eradicated. There are too many people in eckankar who remember - and pass on the information, even involuntarily because it's strictly forbidden to mention Darwin's name officially. Plus, Darwin was Harry's "master" who initiated him!

                  > Now maybe we can all be happy and try to get along as a species. The Kal is very good at manipulating us and testing us. Do you see the tricks of the Kal? The Kal is very,very good at what it does. Everytime someone has a negative emotion it is because the Kal was able to get to them. Imagine if you were a true God Realized Master. Would anything really get to you? Would you get angry?
                  ******Why should we do that? How much fun is it living a life of a so-called god realised master, without any emotions and far away from living a fulfilled life? Doesn't god-realised rather mean that everything worth living is removed from you? How could we serve life by living in such circumstances?

                  > Think about this and then you will see how the Kal plays tricks with us and tries to fool us. The trick is to get to a point where the Kal can't affect you anymore. Now this is very hard to do. It is almost impossible to do. But we try anyway.
                  ******Yeah yeah the kal the kal - what a bad guy!! And how easy it is to credit him with all the negative! LOL!

                  > So be cool, get down and stay loose, bro. It isn''t worth getting upset about. The whole physical un iverse is one huge computer program called the Matrix and Kal Niranjan or the Devil or whatever name you want to give it created this computer program. The sooner you realize this the better it will be for you. Try rationalizing that just for fun. You want a real challenge, try rationalizing the Matrix we live in. Very soon you will see the tricks of the Kal Niranjan.
                  ******A typical ekkie reaction ... you all know what is "good" and "bad" and what is worth getting upset about or not, do you? What arrogance! As the "chosen people" you must know what life is all about indeed! Do you have any scientific proof that the physical universe is as you describe it? If so, please let me know - for the time being, I rather suspect that it's all speculation and that you got it "on the inner". LOL! First of all, I'd suggest you separate fact from fiction and don't take all your inner experiences at face value!


                  > Be cool, hang loose and stay calm, bro. And whatever you do, don't get angry.
                  ****** And blah ... :-) thanks for all the hot air! LOL!

                  > Baraka Bashad,
                  Ratapesce
                  ****** Yeah, and cheers to you too! :-D
                  Ingrid
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