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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 972nd LEM Translates and Klemp Doesn't M...

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  • etznab@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/25/08 6:44:08 PM Central Standard Time, ... Prometheus, I didn t learn that Darwin was referred to as mahanta until over a decade after
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 25, 2008
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      In a message dated 3/25/08 6:44:08 PM Central Standard Time, prometheus_973@... writes:


      I heard that one ECKist stated that Darwin had entered
      the "Sayodiyam," [EK Lexicon, pg. 185] except, DG was
      already a Mahanta, or at least of the 13th Circle after 10
      years as LEM (by Eckankar standards) and therefore, beyond
      the 12th God-Realized state of Consciousness.


      Prometheus,

         I didn't learn that Darwin was referred to as "mahanta"
      until over a decade after I joined Eckankar. Before that, I
      was told that Drawin Gross was only a L.E.M., but not a
      "mahanta". At least, that was the general consensus as
      I remember it - according to the other members I knew.

         How would an Eckist who joined after the Darwin Gross
      years know that he was referred to as "mahanta" when so
      little is mentioned about him?

         I guess they woiuld have to search the Internet, or read
      Doug Marman's book, The Whole Truth. That's how I found
      out.

      Etznab

        



      **************
      Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.
      (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Etznab and All, It is true that HK s buddy, Doug Marman, has brought some truth out into the open. This site s (ESA) LINKS page has some references to
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 26, 2008
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        Hi Etznab and All,
        It is true that HK's buddy, Doug Marman, has brought
        some truth out into the open. This site's (ESA) LINKS
        page has some references to Doug's other comments
        from Ford Johnson's site.

        I like what Doug said about Rebazar probably being Myth,
        but strongly disagree with his views about the Jewish Holocaust
        (WWII) probably being Myth too!

        The thing is there is only one person to say Klemp is
        a Mahanta... himself! Also, his followers (and his gang)!
        Darwin and his followers, at the time, had the same
        inner experiences with him that people are having with
        Klemp! Therefore, if Darwin Wasn't a Mahanta then Neither
        is Klemp!

        Let's face it Darwin had tons more personality than Klemp
        has... and more musical talent! He really had a Golden Heart.
        Darwin knew about the "Musical Life Current" and the
        "Music of the Spheres." Music and ECK are important to
        the spiritual seeker... but Not too important for the Klemps.
        The "Little HU Song" is about all they can manage to squeak
        out... and Not very well either!

        Klemp should be ashamed and embarrassed that he either
        didn't know of Darwin's illness and death, or didn't mention
        it due to his long past hurt feelings and anger he hadn't let
        go of. Except, Darwin was the one injured by Klemp's actions.
        Why couldn't Klemp have shown more compassion to Darwin
        and forgiven him for his transgressions? But No, Klemp throughout
        his life has held onto bruises to his ego. Look at that farmer
        (Klemp once looked up to) who took a sip from another farmer's
        beer, while they were all taking a break from helping bring the
        crops in, and when the guy got back from his "restroom break"
        he noticed someone drank his beer! The farmer, little Harold liked,
        said that HK drank the beer! They all had a good laugh, except,
        for little Harold. HK was embarrassed and ran off. The one farmer
        went to look for him and found him, but Harold was angry and
        never forgave him or spoke to him again. This hurt the farmer's
        feeling and he probably thought of this incident, occasionally,
        until the day he died. Harold didn't ever see the real meaning
        behind this experience he wrote of... even when retelling this
        story... that the farmers were putting little Harold through a
        Rite-of-Passage!

        What kind of a "Master" is Klemp when he can't even see this
        obvious truth as the LEM/Mahanta?!

        Prometheus


        etznab wrote:
        >

        prometheus writes:
        >
        >
        I heard that one ECKist stated that Darwin had entered
        the "Sayodiyam," [EK Lexicon, pg. 185] except, DG was
        already a Mahanta, or at least of the 13th Circle after 10
        years as LEM (by Eckankar standards) and therefore, beyond
        the 12th God-Realized state of Consciousness.
        >
        Prometheus,
        >
        I didn't learn that Darwin was referred to as "mahanta"
        until over a decade after I joined Eckankar. Before that, I
        was told that Drawin Gross was only a L.E.M., but not a
        "mahanta". At least, that was the general consensus as
        I remember it - according to the other members I knew.
        >
        How would an Eckist who joined after the Darwin Gross
        years know that he was referred to as "mahanta" when so
        little is mentioned about him?
        >
        I guess they woiuld have to search the Internet, or read
        Doug Marman's book, The Whole Truth. That's how I found
        out.
        >
        Etznab
      • Elizabeth
        ... Hey I just had an idea... KLEMP could claim that after Darwin passed, he was forgiven by the suggie and is now a master again! Think about it; In Star
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 28, 2008
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          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > The thing is there is only one person to say Klemp is
          > a Mahanta... himself! Also, his followers (and his gang)!
          > Darwin and his followers, at the time, had the same
          > inner experiences with him that people are having with
          > Klemp! Therefore, if Darwin Wasn't a Mahanta then Neither
          > is Klemp!
          >



          Hey I just had an idea...

          KLEMP could claim that after Darwin passed, he was forgiven by the
          suggie and is now a master again! Think about it;

          In "Star Wars" Darth was in essence a master, turned kal, and after
          death turned master again! LOL Maybe KLEMP can redeem himself and
          the teachings after all....
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Liz and All, Darwin has gone through a Resurrection with ECKists! Yes, before his death, his name was forbidden to speak due to the fear from the powers
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 28, 2008
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            Hi Liz and All,
            Darwin has gone through a Resurrection with ECKists!
            Yes, before his death, his name was forbidden to speak
            due to the fear from the powers that be (Klemp & Company).
            Now, as it was with Jesus, many of his enemies see the threat
            removed. However, many ECKists are now experiencing something
            very special... the Golden Heart as they are having feelings
            and inner/outer experiences of love and compassion for Darwin.
            These are deep seated feelings and thoughts that are, also,
            expressions of Divine Love... opposite of the conditional love
            that Klemp expresses (with strings attached)!

            I'll bet that Klemp has called a Special Meeting of Eckankar's
            "Board" to discuss how to enact some kind of Damage Control
            Response. Does Darwin's death (the 972nd LEM/Mahanta) deserve
            a "special mailing" to all chelas? That would be too expensive!
            Maybe it could be mentioned in a half page "In Memoriam" article
            in the next (June) Mystic World or H.I. Letter.

            Liz, you also wrote in another post:

            "Something interesting I found on the ATOM site:
            'When Paul Twitchell translated, (died), in September
            1971, his replacement, Sri Darwin Gross had already
            been the 972nd master of the time ten months prior
            to Paul's passing.' I have never seen this in print before,
            has anyone else?"


            No, I haven't seen this before, however, prior to Oct. 22,
            1983 (Sept. 15th) Klemp wrote a "Personal & Confidential"
            letter to Darwin and stated that he (HK) was the "Mahanta,
            the Living ECK Master." Klemp goes on and quotes the
            Shariyat (out of context) in order to make his case and
            flex his new muscles (power) with complaints and suggestions
            of proper behaviour for DG to follow. Afterall, Klemp's
            main complaint with Darwin was that he had Not retired
            or gone to a place of seclusion, and had split the membership
            down the middle. Klemp's even quotes the Shariyat I:
            "Neither can anyone follow two or more masters at the same
            time (pg. 82)." But, once again HK was taking Paul's quote
            out of context. PT was referring to being a chela in Eckankar
            and following another religious teaching simultaneously.
            It figures that a Black Magician, like Klemp, would distort
            the truth behind the PT's (Eckankar) teachings.

            HK: "I am not unaware that 'having attained the stature
            of the ECK Master, it is found that there yet lies beyond,
            higher and even higher stages of spiritual evolution.'
            (Shariyat II, p. 75). BUT 'THE HIGHEST ECK MASTERS LIVE
            MAINLY IN SECLUSION' (Shariyat II, p. 105). To elaborate,

            All the Masters of ECKANKAR generally live in a retreat
            or inaccessible places [Eden Prairie, MN.?], or, if in Western
            Countries, every effort is made to conceal their identity.
            Their presence is universal; in India, Tibet, Egypt, China,
            Lebanon, Cyprus, Hungary, and other nations of the world.
            However, there is only one Mahanta, the Living ECK Master,
            who has charge over all.... (Shariyat II, p. 77)."

            Klemp previously, in this same letter, gives this Shariyat quote
            in order to help make his point to Darwin:

            "... the ECKist finds there is only one Mahanta within each
            lifetime of every Soul spent within the universe. All other
            ECK Masters in the Order of the Vairagi, the Brotherhood
            of ECK Masters, are known as the MAHARAJ.

            Every MAHARAJ is subordinate to the living ECK Master no
            matter whom he might be, for the Mahanta holds the ECK
            Rod of Power... The Mahanta holds this Rod of Power until
            he is translated into the esoteric position within the Order
            of the Vairagi somewhere within the universe AS A SPECIAL
            WORKER OF GREATER IMPORTANCE. Then he, too, becomes
            subordinate to the next Mahanta, OR living ECK Master. He,
            too, is a member of this Hierarchy where before he was the
            head of it and responsible directly to the Sugmad. The
            MAHARAJS are known as the Silent Ones.... (p. 160)"

            So, it seems that Darwin was to become a Silent One!

            Prometheus

            p.s. I wonder how many Inner ECK Experiences Chelas
            are having with Darwin (Dap Ren)? They'll never be
            printed by Klemp... or will they... now that DG can no
            longer voice his protests with/to Klemp on the outer?



            Elizabeth wrote:
            >
            prometheus wrote:
            > >
            "The thing is there is only one person to say Klemp is
            a Mahanta... himself! Also, his followers (and his gang)!
            Darwin and his followers, at the time, had the same
            inner experiences with him that people are having with
            Klemp! Therefore, if Darwin Wasn't a Mahanta then Neither
            is Klemp!"
            > >
            Hey I just had an idea...
            >
            KLEMP could claim that after Darwin passed, he was forgiven by the
            suggie and is now a master again! Think about it;
            >
            In "Star Wars" Darth was in essence a master, turned kal, and after
            death turned master again! LOL Maybe KLEMP can redeem himself and
            the teachings after all....
          • Elizabeth
            Hi Prometheus, This brings to mind when HK kicked Ford Johnson and Graham to the curb... without coming straight out and calling Graham a lunatic for thinking
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 28, 2008
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              Hi Prometheus,

              This brings to mind when HK kicked Ford Johnson and Graham to the
              curb... without coming straight out and calling Graham a lunatic for
              thinking he was to become the next LEM/Mahanta!

              Maybe a guilty conscious would make a man like HK react as he did!
              Memories of how he screwed Darwin.... he wouldn't want that to
              happen to him now would he.

              Does HK call himself the 973rd LEM? If so, then Darwin was the
              972nd... You can't change history, you can only cover it up!


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > prior to Oct. 22,
              > 1983 (Sept. 15th) Klemp wrote a "Personal & Confidential"
              > letter to Darwin and stated that he (HK) was the "Mahanta,
              > the Living ECK Master." Klemp goes on and quotes the
              > Shariyat (out of context) in order to make his case and
              > flex his new muscles (power) with complaints and suggestions
              > of proper behaviour for DG to follow. Afterall, Klemp's
              > main complaint with Darwin was that he had Not retired
              > or gone to a place of seclusion, and had split the membership
              > down the middle. Klemp's even quotes the Shariyat I:
              > "Neither can anyone follow two or more masters at the same
              > time (pg. 82)." But, once again HK was taking Paul's quote
              > out of context. PT was referring to being a chela in Eckankar
              > and following another religious teaching simultaneously.
              > It figures that a Black Magician, like Klemp, would distort
              > the truth behind the PT's (Eckankar) teachings.
              >
              > HK: "I am not unaware that 'having attained the stature
              > of the ECK Master, it is found that there yet lies beyond,
              > higher and even higher stages of spiritual evolution.'
              > (Shariyat II, p. 75). BUT 'THE HIGHEST ECK MASTERS LIVE
              > MAINLY IN SECLUSION' (Shariyat II, p. 105). To elaborate,
              >
              > All the Masters of ECKANKAR generally live in a retreat
              > or inaccessible places [Eden Prairie, MN.?], or, if in Western
              > Countries, every effort is made to conceal their identity.
              > Their presence is universal; in India, Tibet, Egypt, China,
              > Lebanon, Cyprus, Hungary, and other nations of the world.
              > However, there is only one Mahanta, the Living ECK Master,
              > who has charge over all.... (Shariyat II, p. 77)."
              >
              > Klemp previously, in this same letter, gives this Shariyat quote
              > in order to help make his point to Darwin:
              >
              > "... the ECKist finds there is only one Mahanta within each
              > lifetime of every Soul spent within the universe. All other
              > ECK Masters in the Order of the Vairagi, the Brotherhood
              > of ECK Masters, are known as the MAHARAJ.
              >
              > Every MAHARAJ is subordinate to the living ECK Master no
              > matter whom he might be, for the Mahanta holds the ECK
              > Rod of Power... The Mahanta holds this Rod of Power until
              > he is translated into the esoteric position within the Order
              > of the Vairagi somewhere within the universe AS A SPECIAL
              > WORKER OF GREATER IMPORTANCE. Then he, too, becomes
              > subordinate to the next Mahanta, OR living ECK Master. He,
              > too, is a member of this Hierarchy where before he was the
              > head of it and responsible directly to the Sugmad. The
              > MAHARAJS are known as the Silent Ones.... (p. 160)"
              >
              > So, it seems that Darwin was to become a Silent One!
              >
              > Prometheus
            • prometheus_973
              I d like to mention that this 1983 Letter from Klemp to Darwin can be found in the First LINK on this site (ESA). I have some further comments that I will add.
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 28, 2008
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                I'd like to mention that this 1983 Letter from Klemp to
                Darwin can be found in the First LINK on this site (ESA).
                I have some further comments that I will add. ***


                PERSONAL & CONFIDENTIAL (To DG, From HK)

                On Sept. 15, 1983 Klemp wrote a "Personal & Confidential"
                letter to Darwin and stated that he (HK) was the "Mahanta,
                the Living ECK Master." Klemp goes on and quotes the
                Shariyat (out of context at times) in order to make his case
                and flex his new muscles (power) with complaints and
                suggestions of proper behaviour for DG to follow. Afterall,
                Klemp's main complaint (in this letter) with Darwin was that
                DG had Not Retired or gone to a place of Seclusion, and had
                split the EK Membership down the middle. Klemp includes
                this quote from the Shariyat I:

                "Neither can anyone follow two or more masters at the same
                time (pg. 82)."

                But, once again HK was taking Paul's words out of context.
                PT was referring to Chelas, in Eckankar, still following Another
                religious teaching simultaneously to EK. NOT to following the
                EK Master who initiated them and who is responsible to/for
                them (on the Inner) always! It is up to the Chela to know the
                difference between the Outer and Inner Master and this was
                Not Darwin's fault! Klemp never fully understood this and his
                anger got the best of him as he overreacted, once again, and
                as he always has!

                It figures that a Black Magician, like Klemp, would distort
                the truth behind PT's Eckankar teachings.

                Here's more from HK's 1983 Letter to Darwin:

                HK: "I am not unaware that 'having attained the stature
                of the ECK Master, it is found that there yet lies beyond,
                higher and even higher stages of spiritual evolution.'
                (Shariyat II, p. 75). BUT 'THE HIGHEST ECK MASTERS LIVE
                MAINLY IN SECLUSION' (Shariyat II, p. 105)."

                ***
                ME: So, Klemp is implying that Darwin is a former Mahanta
                and is now on the same level as "The Highest ECK Masters"
                and that Gross should "Live Mainly In Seclusion" and become
                a Silent One, who is still subordinate to the LEM/Mahanta!
                ***

                HK: "To elaborate, All the Masters of ECKANKAR generally
                live in a retreat or inaccessible places [Eden Prairie, MN.?],
                or, if in Western Countries, every effort is made to conceal
                their identity.

                Their presence is universal; in India, Tibet, Egypt, China,
                Lebanon, Cyprus, Hungary, and other nations of the world.
                However, there is only one Mahanta, the Living ECK Master,
                who has charge over all.... (Shariyat II, p. 77)."

                Klemp previously, in this same letter, gave this next Shariyat
                quote in order to help make his point clearer to Darwin:

                "... the ECKist finds There Is Only One Mahanta Within Each
                Lifetime Of Every Soul Spent Within The Universe. All other
                ECK Masters in the Order of the Vairagi, the Brotherhood
                of ECK Masters, are known as the MAHARAJ."

                ***
                ME: If this is true that: "THERE IS ONLY ONE MAHANTA WITHIN
                EACH LIFETIME OF EVERY SOUL SPENT WITHIN THE UNIVERSE"
                then wouldn't that Mahanta be Twitchell! Afterall, Klemp never
                wrote any ECK HOLY BOOKS (Shariyats)! And it really needs to be
                noted that these just aren't Shariyat quotes that one can take
                with a grain of salt or look at from different levels of consciousness
                or perspectives. Klemp is being direct and is using these quotes
                to make specific points to Darwin (an ECK Master at least!). These
                are Not words and points made that are directed towards lower
                level (9th-1st) Non God/Sugmad/Mahanta-Realized Initiates!
                ***

                HK: "Every MAHARAJ is subordinate to the living ECK Master no
                matter whom he might be, for the Mahanta holds the ECK
                Rod of Power... THE MAHANTA HOLDS THIS ROD of POWER
                UNTIL HE IS TRANSLATED into the esoteric position within
                the Order of the Vairagi somewhere within the universe AS
                A SPECIAL WORKER OF GREATER IMPORTANCE. Then he, too,
                becomes subordinate to the next Mahanta, OR living ECK Master.
                He, too, is a member of this Hierarchy where before he was
                the head of it and responsible directly to the Sugmad. The
                MAHARAJS are known as the Silent Ones.... (p. 160)"

                ***
                So, according to Klemp and the Shariyat quotes he was using,
                Darwin was/is a SILENT ONE, and was STILL the Mahanta until
                his recent translation!
                ***

                Prometheus

                p.s. I wonder how many Inner ECK Experiences Chelas
                are having with Darwin (Dap Ren)? They'll never be
                printed by Klemp... or will they... now that DG can no
                longer voice his protests with/to Klemp on the outer?

                It's, also, sad for ECKists that if it wasn't for Ford Johnson's
                efforts to bring forth the Truth this Letter wouldn't have ever
                been available for all to see. After 25 years Klemp is still hiding
                The Whole Truth about these comments of his to Darwin!
              • prometheus_973
                Darwin Gross knew about Music whereas the Klemps know nothing! ... HK s buddy, Doug Marman, has brought some truth out into the open. This site s (ESA) LINKS
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 30, 2008
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                  Darwin Gross knew about Music whereas the Klemps
                  "know" nothing!

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >

                  HK's buddy, Doug Marman, has brought some truth out
                  into the open. This site's (ESA) LINKS page has some
                  references to Doug's other comments from Ford Johnson's
                  former Truth Seeker site.
                  >
                  I like what Doug said about Rebazar probably being Myth,
                  but strongly disagree with his views about the Jewish Holocaust
                  (WWII) probably being Myth too!
                  >
                  The thing is there is only one person to say Klemp is
                  a Mahanta... himself! Also, his followers (and his gang)!
                  Darwin and his followers, at the time, had the same
                  inner experiences with him that people are having with
                  Klemp! Therefore, if Darwin Wasn't a Mahanta then Neither
                  is Klemp!
                  >
                  Let's face it Darwin had tons more personality than Klemp
                  has... and more musical talent! He really had a Golden Heart.
                  Darwin knew about the "Musical Life Current" and the
                  "Music of the Spheres." Music and ECK are important to
                  the spiritual seeker... but Not too important for the Klemps.
                  The "Little HU Song" is about all they can manage to squeak
                  out... and Not very well either!
                  >
                  Klemp should be ashamed and embarrassed that he either
                  didn't know of Darwin's illness and death, or didn't mention
                  it due to his long past hurt feelings and anger he hadn't let
                  go of. Except, Darwin was the one injured by Klemp's actions.
                  Why couldn't Klemp have shown more compassion to Darwin
                  and forgiven him for his transgressions? But No, Klemp throughout
                  his life has held onto bruises to his ego. He can dish it out but
                  can't take it!

                  HK told a story about a farmer Klemp once looked up to who
                  took a sip from another farmer's beer, while they were all taking
                  a break from helping bring in the crops for another farmer, and
                  when the guy got back from his "restroom break" he noticed
                  someone drank his beer! The farmer, little Harold liked, said that
                  HK drank the beer! They all had a good laugh, except, for little
                  Harold. HK was embarrassed and ran off and hid. The one farmer
                  looking for him and found him and tried to explain, but Harold
                  was angry and hurt and decided to punish the farmer by never
                  forgiving him or speaking to him ever again. This hurt the farmer's
                  feeling because he liked little Harry. I'll bet he probably thought
                  of this incident, occasionally, until the day he died. Harold didn't
                  ever see the real meaning behind this experience, then, or years
                  later when he wrote about it as the LEM/Mahanta. Yes, even when
                  retelling this story Klemp never connected the dots to see that the
                  farmers were putting him, little Harold, through a Rite-of-Passage!
                  >
                  What kind of a "Master" is Klemp when he can't even see this
                  obvious truth when retelling this story as the LEM/Mahanta
                  and "highest consciousness" on all of the planes of Sugmad?!
                  Yeah, right!
                  >
                  Prometheus
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Thanks for pointing out that translation password. It looked like interesting trivia. Etznab ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 30, 2008
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                       Thanks for pointing out that translation password. It looked
                    like interesting trivia.

                    Etznab



                    **************
                    Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.
                    (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
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