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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Outer Teachings Then & Now

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  • etznab@aol.com
    The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same as handing over control of Eckankar to
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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         The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold
      Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same
      as handing over control of "Eckankar" to someone else. He
      talked with Harold about doing this even a year before.

         So, historically speaking, it looks like Darwin Gross was
      the only LIVING Eck Master in our lifetimes to pass on the
      leadership of Eckankar to a successor.

         I don't know how Darwin could have retained any position
      higher than "spiritual leader" after he knowingly relinquished
      it. As for the position of President and/or any other position
      in the upper management subject to approval by a board or
      a majority vote, it would seem that the majority sided with
      the Living Eck Master. How could they - according to the
      teachings - do otherwise?

         I don't know what the corporate structure was at the time,
      but it might be an interesting question whether or not there
      were definitions for the position of a Mahanta vs. Living Eck
      Master. I think that was the argument of some people. That
      although Harold became the L.E.M. that Darwin might have
      still been the Mahanta.

         Suppose Darwin did go by the title of Mahanta, the Living
      Eck Master and he handed over the Living Eck Master part
      to someone else. Does he keep the Mahanta part?

         From the tape that I was familiar with, Harold was not
      announced by the word Mahanta. That was apparently
      added some years later. Like, I think it was subsequent
      to Darwin's removal.

         An interesting trivia question might be, Where did the
      "Mahanta" part of the title go during the time between it
      leaving Darwin and finding a place with Harold?

         On second thought, I don't think I want to "go there".
      Or, do I :)

      Etznab

      P.S. With regard to Darwin's affiliation with the title of
      "Mahanta", I'm trying to recall what Doug Marman put
      in his books - about a use of the term from about 1973
      onward (in regard to Darwin).


        

      Etznab



      **************
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    • prometheus_973
      Hi Etznab and All, I d like to respond to some of the points you have made and make some other comments as well. ... ME: Actually, Darwin passed the Rod to
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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        Hi Etznab and All,
        I'd like to respond to some of the points you have
        made and make some other comments as well.

        etznab wrote:
        >
        >
        > "The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold
        > Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same
        > as handing over control of "Eckankar" to someone else. He
        > talked with Harold about doing this even a year before."

        ME: Actually, Darwin passed the Rod to Klemp in Oct. of 1981,
        and gave HK his 8th in mid-1980 and a 9th around mid-1981
        just months before giving him the 12th LEM position. They both
        worked out the transition plans in a Sound Proof Dark Room
        at the ESC where Klemp worked. [Soul Travelers of the Far Country,
        CH. 7]

        > "So, historically speaking, it looks like Darwin Gross was
        > the only LIVING Eck Master in our lifetimes to pass on the
        > leadership of Eckankar to a successor."

        ME: Since there have only been three LEMs and one Mahanta
        (Twitchell) it's true that Darwin is the only one who has directly
        passed the title and duties on.

        > " I don't know how Darwin could have retained any position
        > higher than "spiritual leader" after he knowingly relinquished
        > it. As for the position of President and/or any other position
        > in the upper management subject to approval by a board or
        > a majority vote, it would seem that the majority sided with
        > the Living Eck Master. How could they - according to the
        > teachings - do otherwise?"

        ME: Well, even Klemp will admit that DG was at least a 12th LEM
        and, therefore, a "God-Realized" ECK Master. Kata Daki was no
        higher than a 12th or 13th. Check out the EK Lexicon for those
        ECK Masters who were only LEMs and Not Mahantas. Besides,
        Klemp has said that a 12th and 13th LEM is a Mahanta, but Not
        a "Full" Mahanta.

        > " I don't know what the corporate structure was at the time,
        > but it might be an interesting question whether or not there
        > were definitions for the position of a Mahanta vs. Living Eck
        > Master. I think that was the argument of some people. That
        > although Harold became the L.E.M. that Darwin might have
        > still been the Mahanta."

        ME: Unfortunately, the EK charter or structure that Gross used
        was the same one designed by Twitchell and his advisors when
        Eckankar was first incorporated as a Non-Profit org. This was done
        Before PT created the Mahanta title around Dec. 1968-Jan. 1969.
        This is why the LEM was also the President and why No
        consideration was given to the 14th Circle "Full" Mahanta position.

        The highest initiate (the Mahanta) was the true spiritual leader
        and Darwin was in that position when Klemp was still a 12th & 13th
        during the schism. Klemp, later, corrected this flaw in the charter
        in case he would ever have his authority challenged by someone
        like himself. Therefore, now, every EK Board member sits at the
        pleasure of the LEM/Mahanta for a (renewable) one year term.
        This is the same for the Local (Regional) EK Boards, except, the
        RESA choses these people.


        > "Suppose Darwin did go by the title of Mahanta, the Living
        > Eck Master and he handed over the Living Eck Master part
        > to someone else. Does he keep the Mahanta part?"

        ME: Yes! This was Darwin's plan. He just needed to have mentioned
        it to the membership in order to get it on record. If Gross had done
        that Klemp and his gang would have been in a much more difficult
        position to oust him and take over.

        > "From the tape that I was familiar with, Harold was not
        > announced by the word Mahanta. That was apparently
        > added some years later. Like, I think it was subsequent
        > to Darwin's removal."

        ME: Yes! HK was in training (under DG) to become a "Full"
        Mahanta just as he has said. Except, he can't be a "Full"
        Mahanta, according to the Shariyat, because HK did Not have
        a Virgin Birth! Therefore, Klemp can't be of the 14th Circle
        as he has claimed! And, this also means he's either delusional
        or a liar or both!

        > "An interesting trivia question might be, Where did the
        > "Mahanta" part of the title go during the time between it
        > leaving Darwin and finding a place with Harold?"

        ME: According to Klemp Rebazar Tarzs filled-in from time-
        to-time. Why not use this fictional character like PT did?

        > "On second thought, I don't think I want to "go there".
        > Or, do I :)"
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        > P.S. "With regard to Darwin's affiliation with the title of
        > "Mahanta", I'm trying to recall what Doug Marman put
        > in his books - about a use of the term from about 1973
        > onward (in regard to Darwin)."

        ME: It could be that Darwin felt he needed a training or
        break-in period, as well, before bringing the "blue carnations"
        on stage. It's expected by the EK membership and tends to
        make the whole "spiritual" scam more believable.

        Prometheus
      • etznab@aol.com
        Prometheus, Thanks for the clairfication. I got it wrong about the dates for the transition from Darwin to Harold. 1981, not 1982. It s not the first time I
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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          Prometheus,

             Thanks for the clairfication. I got it wrong about the dates
          for the transition from Darwin to Harold. 1981, not 1982. It's
          not the first time I made that same typo.

          *********

             I can get a little better angle on where you were coming
          from with regard to the "Mahanta" & "Living Eck Master"
          positions. I just finished reading through the Darwin Gross
          truth files, which is one place with information about the
          corporate history - then vs. now (relatively speaking).

             Personally, I don't know what to make of it all. Especially
          since I wasn't a member at the time and are having to look
          at different accounts from different sources - not all of which
          agree. I can make sense of parts of it, but not all.

             The most pivotal issue, however, appears to revolve around
          who or what is the "mahanta". Who or what is "the living eck
          master". On a corporate level I imagine the latter could be as
          some form of CEO. And in the past it does seem as though
          the spiritual leader and the president of Eckankar were two
          different positions held by two different people at times, and
          at other times by the same person. From what I read on the
          D.G.T.F. site it would seem that Peter S. is the president of
          all three corporations (Nevada, California & Minnesota). That
          he was at one time, at least. I can't say for sure that I know it
          to be the case now, but it looks reasonable to assume that it
          may still possibly be the case. The argument between what
          seemed to have taken place between Darwin & Harold was
          more than "President" & "CEO" though. There was also the
          "mahanta" thing going on, it would seem. As if that position
          had some authority to it - albeit in the form of an ex-L.E.M
          in the form of Darwin Gross. This is an impression of it that
          I get, at least.

             There isn't the problem now with a "mahanta" or a "L.E.M."
          in the form of two different people and/or positions (at least,
          with the official organization structure because Harold Klemp
          shares both of the titles). However, the fact that it did appear
          to present a major issue in the past is something curious to
          me. Even moreso looking at the position Darwin himself has
          held for years subsequent to 1981 & 1983 in his comments.

             The idea about Darwin being the "Mahanta" and Harold as
          some form of "Mahanta's apprentice" in training going by the
          title of "Living Eck Master" is a real duzy, IMO. It calls atten-
          tion to itself though, as something for study the way I see it.
          At least, for a person like myself with curiosity about what is
          the "history" of words and their different meanings over time.
          How did they come to be that way, etc.

             It might seem like a mute point in my writings now, but
          try and remember it was a major focus of mine well over a
          decade ago and shortly after I got my first computer. The
          research and study of words and their history, it might not
          show as much to others who don't know the amount of time
          I spent doing this. Most of it took place before I came on to
          bulletin board discussion groups. However, it's probably a
          lot more important to me - the literal definition for a word -
          than it might be for most. Especially words that claim to
          have ancient roots. Not that I always make an issue over
          every word, but I simply choose not to "go there" most of
          the time.

             I think a lot of people get their definitions and meanings
          for words like the characters in the movie Matrix. People
          connected to technology and living in a virtual reality while
          their real bodies are asleep in cells serving like sources
          of power for others. Sources of power who are unable to
          challenge the agents holding them prisoner unless they
          should first come awake to the "real" world. After that -
          after being liberated from dream-sleep - they can then
          enter into the Matrix knowingly, even prepared, to meet
          their captives on the same level and defeat them at their
          own game. Ironically, by the use of the same technology
          that once held them captive and spell bound.

             In my opinion :)(:

          Etznab



            

            



            



          **************
          Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.
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        • Elizabeth
          Darwin Gross himself admitted he let his guard down, which led to his downfall. I recently watched numerous videos on youtube to this effect.
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
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            Darwin Gross himself admitted he let his guard down, which led to his
            downfall. I recently watched numerous videos on youtube to this
            effect.


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Etznab and All,
            > Twitchell created the Mahanta position in 1969
            > and was the sole owner of Eckankar. Gail, his
            > widow, inherited the org. and gave control to
            > Darwin Gross. During the beginnings of EK the
            > org was run more democratically with Board
            > members having more influence and powers
            > given to them by Gross. DG's inattention and
            > sharing of responsibilities, however, led to Gross'
            > down-fall.
            >
            > As the Mahanta there was no one above him...
            > certainly not 12th initiate Klemp! But, Gross didn't
            > recognize or use the Mahanta position to legally
            > fight off the self-righteous and treacherous back-
            > stabber (HK) that pulled the rug out from under him.
            > Therefore, Klemp and his cohorts took over. If Gross
            > had only used his Mahanta position, as a 14th initiate,
            > and used the Shariyat to prove his authority he could
            > have threatened to excommunicate the EK Board
            > Members siding with Klemp, as well as, Klemp!
            >
            > Legally, what took place in the courts with removing
            > Gross (the Mahanta) was in opposition to the EK Holy
            > Scripture (Dogma) and, therefore, should be null and
            > void. However, the Shariyat requires a Virgin Birth for
            > the Mahanta, thus, only Twitchell (due to his rewriting
            > of his past) claimed to have had a Virgin Birth. Thus,
            > Neither Gross or Klemp were/are Mahantas. And, since
            > Klemp claims he is a 14th Full Mahanta then Gross can
            > make the same claim!
            >
            > Afterall, if Klemp was a real spiritual Master he would
            > still have the writings of a former God-Realized Master
            > (Gross) available for EK members to read and study.
            > But, this is not the case because HK fears the truth
            > and the writings of Gross. Gross never reedited and
            > changed any of Twitchell's writings as Klemp has done.
            >
            > ***
          • Elizabeth
            LOL Etznab you describe it perfectly, and how I see my past history with eckankar... I woke up after 30 plus years of being held captive in the dream - sleep
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
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              LOL Etznab you describe it perfectly, and how I see my past history
              with eckankar... I woke up after 30 plus years of being held captive
              in the dream - sleep being fed by the eckanborg.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > I think a lot of people get their definitions and meanings
              > for words like the characters in the movie Matrix. People
              > connected to technology and living in a virtual reality while
              > their real bodies are asleep in cells serving like sources
              > of power for others. Sources of power who are unable to
              > challenge the agents holding them prisoner unless they
              > should first come awake to the "real" world. After that -
              > after being liberated from dream-sleep - they can then
              > enter into the Matrix knowingly, even prepared, to meet
              > their captives on the same level and defeat them at their
              > own game. Ironically, by the use of the same technology
              > that once held them captive and spell bound.
              >
              > In my opinion :)(:
              >
              > Etznab
              >
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