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Re: Outer Teachings Then & Now

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Etznab and All, Twitchell created the Mahanta position in 1969 and was the sole owner of Eckankar. Gail, his widow, inherited the org. and gave control
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 17, 2008
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      Hello Etznab and All,
      Twitchell created the Mahanta position in 1969
      and was the sole owner of Eckankar. Gail, his
      widow, inherited the org. and gave control to
      Darwin Gross. During the beginnings of EK the
      org was run more democratically with Board
      members having more influence and powers
      given to them by Gross. DG's inattention and
      sharing of responsibilities, however, led to Gross'
      down-fall.

      As the Mahanta there was no one above him...
      certainly not 12th initiate Klemp! But, Gross didn't
      recognize or use the Mahanta position to legally
      fight off the self-righteous and treacherous back-
      stabber (HK) that pulled the rug out from under him.
      Therefore, Klemp and his cohorts took over. If Gross
      had only used his Mahanta position, as a 14th initiate,
      and used the Shariyat to prove his authority he could
      have threatened to excommunicate the EK Board
      Members siding with Klemp, as well as, Klemp!

      Legally, what took place in the courts with removing
      Gross (the Mahanta) was in opposition to the EK Holy
      Scripture (Dogma) and, therefore, should be null and
      void. However, the Shariyat requires a Virgin Birth for
      the Mahanta, thus, only Twitchell (due to his rewriting
      of his past) claimed to have had a Virgin Birth. Thus,
      Neither Gross or Klemp were/are Mahantas. And, since
      Klemp claims he is a 14th Full Mahanta then Gross can
      make the same claim!

      Afterall, if Klemp was a real spiritual Master he would
      still have the writings of a former God-Realized Master
      (Gross) available for EK members to read and study.
      But, this is not the case because HK fears the truth
      and the writings of Gross. Gross never reedited and
      changed any of Twitchell's writings as Klemp has done.

      ***
      You wrote:
      "It seems that as long as people are happy with something
      they will usually stay with it. It could be a religion,
      it could be a person, or even a job."

      ME: Actually, that's not quite accurate. People will stay
      in unpleasant or unfulfilling situations because they don't
      have anything better to fall back upon. It could be worse.
      People always rationalize about one thing or another and
      often resist change out of fear.

      "What is different about Eckankar today? in the outer
      teachings and outer organization that would make people
      unhappy enough to want to leave? - when years ago they
      were happy to stay? This is a part of what I'm looking for.
      Was it something new that was added, or was it some-
      thing there all the time but only not as strong? (Of course,
      there may be other reasons besides)."

      ME: What is different about Eckankar today from a spiritual
      perspective? Well, Klemp has slowed down initiations, and
      created a more complex outer structure (hierarchy) and added
      more rules, requirements, and guidelines with more emphasis
      on selling EK materials than ever before... while neglecting
      or being unable to teach new and higher spiritual truths.
      Klemp just rewrites and recycles what Twitchell had written
      Forty some years ago. Anyone can do that!

      However, the RESA structure did help to sort out the rebels
      (i.e. free-thinkers). This and the new religious aspects of a
      "Church" tend to keep people in line. It creates conformity
      to rules, guidelines, dogma, jargon, via training people how
      to act and think and talk... and even how to contemplate and
      dream. One can't have a dream where a Silent One hands you
      the Rod of ECK Power to see what it feels like! To have that
      dream is one thing, but to share it (even in an IRO) is forbidden!

      "Either way, I'm hoping that a timeline about the legal
      designation of the organization over time will help throw
      some light on this subject, along with the reasons for change -
      to both the organization and the teachings of Eckankar."

      ME: I really don't think a timetable will prove anything.
      If people can't connect-the-dots with what has been
      shared in "Confessions of a God Seeker" and on this site,
      as well as, on other sites [check the LINKS page here too]
      then it could be that many ECKists just aren't ready to see
      the truth!

      What do they have to replace Eckankar? Nothing!
      Yet, the state of Nothingness is part of what they seek!
      Many ECKists aren't prepared for Spiritual Freedom and
      Self-Mastery. There's a lot of responsibility that comes
      with being free to choose on one's own. One would think
      that long-time ECKists with 6 or 7 initiations have been
      through enough and have seen enough, by now, to be
      able to break free and continue their spiritual growth on
      their own by becoming one with Spirit.

      In many cases these H.I.s, especially RESAs and former
      RESAs, enjoy feeling powerful and important and respected.
      They are recognized and sought out and asked to speak
      at Regional and Major EK seminars. The rationalizing of
      their egos have become too strong for Soul and this has
      created their attachment to their hierarchical positions power.
      It's sad because these H.I.s, too, began as truth seekers
      and have now gotten stuck in the muck of delusion.

      With HK's "Spiritual-Realization" definition in the 03/2008
      H.I. Letter 7ths, 8ths, and 9ths will now have new limitations
      toward becoming God-Realized now and in any future lifetime!
      The reality of these H.I.s has become distorted with their
      abnormally large egos, runaway imaginations, and Leaps of
      Faith much like other religious fundamentalists.


      Prometheus
    • etznab@aol.com
      The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same as handing over control of Eckankar to
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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           The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold
        Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same
        as handing over control of "Eckankar" to someone else. He
        talked with Harold about doing this even a year before.

           So, historically speaking, it looks like Darwin Gross was
        the only LIVING Eck Master in our lifetimes to pass on the
        leadership of Eckankar to a successor.

           I don't know how Darwin could have retained any position
        higher than "spiritual leader" after he knowingly relinquished
        it. As for the position of President and/or any other position
        in the upper management subject to approval by a board or
        a majority vote, it would seem that the majority sided with
        the Living Eck Master. How could they - according to the
        teachings - do otherwise?

           I don't know what the corporate structure was at the time,
        but it might be an interesting question whether or not there
        were definitions for the position of a Mahanta vs. Living Eck
        Master. I think that was the argument of some people. That
        although Harold became the L.E.M. that Darwin might have
        still been the Mahanta.

           Suppose Darwin did go by the title of Mahanta, the Living
        Eck Master and he handed over the Living Eck Master part
        to someone else. Does he keep the Mahanta part?

           From the tape that I was familiar with, Harold was not
        announced by the word Mahanta. That was apparently
        added some years later. Like, I think it was subsequent
        to Darwin's removal.

           An interesting trivia question might be, Where did the
        "Mahanta" part of the title go during the time between it
        leaving Darwin and finding a place with Harold?

           On second thought, I don't think I want to "go there".
        Or, do I :)

        Etznab

        P.S. With regard to Darwin's affiliation with the title of
        "Mahanta", I'm trying to recall what Doug Marman put
        in his books - about a use of the term from about 1973
        onward (in regard to Darwin).


          

        Etznab



        **************
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      • prometheus_973
        Hi Etznab and All, I d like to respond to some of the points you have made and make some other comments as well. ... ME: Actually, Darwin passed the Rod to
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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          Hi Etznab and All,
          I'd like to respond to some of the points you have
          made and make some other comments as well.

          etznab wrote:
          >
          >
          > "The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold
          > Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same
          > as handing over control of "Eckankar" to someone else. He
          > talked with Harold about doing this even a year before."

          ME: Actually, Darwin passed the Rod to Klemp in Oct. of 1981,
          and gave HK his 8th in mid-1980 and a 9th around mid-1981
          just months before giving him the 12th LEM position. They both
          worked out the transition plans in a Sound Proof Dark Room
          at the ESC where Klemp worked. [Soul Travelers of the Far Country,
          CH. 7]

          > "So, historically speaking, it looks like Darwin Gross was
          > the only LIVING Eck Master in our lifetimes to pass on the
          > leadership of Eckankar to a successor."

          ME: Since there have only been three LEMs and one Mahanta
          (Twitchell) it's true that Darwin is the only one who has directly
          passed the title and duties on.

          > " I don't know how Darwin could have retained any position
          > higher than "spiritual leader" after he knowingly relinquished
          > it. As for the position of President and/or any other position
          > in the upper management subject to approval by a board or
          > a majority vote, it would seem that the majority sided with
          > the Living Eck Master. How could they - according to the
          > teachings - do otherwise?"

          ME: Well, even Klemp will admit that DG was at least a 12th LEM
          and, therefore, a "God-Realized" ECK Master. Kata Daki was no
          higher than a 12th or 13th. Check out the EK Lexicon for those
          ECK Masters who were only LEMs and Not Mahantas. Besides,
          Klemp has said that a 12th and 13th LEM is a Mahanta, but Not
          a "Full" Mahanta.

          > " I don't know what the corporate structure was at the time,
          > but it might be an interesting question whether or not there
          > were definitions for the position of a Mahanta vs. Living Eck
          > Master. I think that was the argument of some people. That
          > although Harold became the L.E.M. that Darwin might have
          > still been the Mahanta."

          ME: Unfortunately, the EK charter or structure that Gross used
          was the same one designed by Twitchell and his advisors when
          Eckankar was first incorporated as a Non-Profit org. This was done
          Before PT created the Mahanta title around Dec. 1968-Jan. 1969.
          This is why the LEM was also the President and why No
          consideration was given to the 14th Circle "Full" Mahanta position.

          The highest initiate (the Mahanta) was the true spiritual leader
          and Darwin was in that position when Klemp was still a 12th & 13th
          during the schism. Klemp, later, corrected this flaw in the charter
          in case he would ever have his authority challenged by someone
          like himself. Therefore, now, every EK Board member sits at the
          pleasure of the LEM/Mahanta for a (renewable) one year term.
          This is the same for the Local (Regional) EK Boards, except, the
          RESA choses these people.


          > "Suppose Darwin did go by the title of Mahanta, the Living
          > Eck Master and he handed over the Living Eck Master part
          > to someone else. Does he keep the Mahanta part?"

          ME: Yes! This was Darwin's plan. He just needed to have mentioned
          it to the membership in order to get it on record. If Gross had done
          that Klemp and his gang would have been in a much more difficult
          position to oust him and take over.

          > "From the tape that I was familiar with, Harold was not
          > announced by the word Mahanta. That was apparently
          > added some years later. Like, I think it was subsequent
          > to Darwin's removal."

          ME: Yes! HK was in training (under DG) to become a "Full"
          Mahanta just as he has said. Except, he can't be a "Full"
          Mahanta, according to the Shariyat, because HK did Not have
          a Virgin Birth! Therefore, Klemp can't be of the 14th Circle
          as he has claimed! And, this also means he's either delusional
          or a liar or both!

          > "An interesting trivia question might be, Where did the
          > "Mahanta" part of the title go during the time between it
          > leaving Darwin and finding a place with Harold?"

          ME: According to Klemp Rebazar Tarzs filled-in from time-
          to-time. Why not use this fictional character like PT did?

          > "On second thought, I don't think I want to "go there".
          > Or, do I :)"
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          > P.S. "With regard to Darwin's affiliation with the title of
          > "Mahanta", I'm trying to recall what Doug Marman put
          > in his books - about a use of the term from about 1973
          > onward (in regard to Darwin)."

          ME: It could be that Darwin felt he needed a training or
          break-in period, as well, before bringing the "blue carnations"
          on stage. It's expected by the EK membership and tends to
          make the whole "spiritual" scam more believable.

          Prometheus
        • etznab@aol.com
          Prometheus, Thanks for the clairfication. I got it wrong about the dates for the transition from Darwin to Harold. 1981, not 1982. It s not the first time I
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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            Prometheus,

               Thanks for the clairfication. I got it wrong about the dates
            for the transition from Darwin to Harold. 1981, not 1982. It's
            not the first time I made that same typo.

            *********

               I can get a little better angle on where you were coming
            from with regard to the "Mahanta" & "Living Eck Master"
            positions. I just finished reading through the Darwin Gross
            truth files, which is one place with information about the
            corporate history - then vs. now (relatively speaking).

               Personally, I don't know what to make of it all. Especially
            since I wasn't a member at the time and are having to look
            at different accounts from different sources - not all of which
            agree. I can make sense of parts of it, but not all.

               The most pivotal issue, however, appears to revolve around
            who or what is the "mahanta". Who or what is "the living eck
            master". On a corporate level I imagine the latter could be as
            some form of CEO. And in the past it does seem as though
            the spiritual leader and the president of Eckankar were two
            different positions held by two different people at times, and
            at other times by the same person. From what I read on the
            D.G.T.F. site it would seem that Peter S. is the president of
            all three corporations (Nevada, California & Minnesota). That
            he was at one time, at least. I can't say for sure that I know it
            to be the case now, but it looks reasonable to assume that it
            may still possibly be the case. The argument between what
            seemed to have taken place between Darwin & Harold was
            more than "President" & "CEO" though. There was also the
            "mahanta" thing going on, it would seem. As if that position
            had some authority to it - albeit in the form of an ex-L.E.M
            in the form of Darwin Gross. This is an impression of it that
            I get, at least.

               There isn't the problem now with a "mahanta" or a "L.E.M."
            in the form of two different people and/or positions (at least,
            with the official organization structure because Harold Klemp
            shares both of the titles). However, the fact that it did appear
            to present a major issue in the past is something curious to
            me. Even moreso looking at the position Darwin himself has
            held for years subsequent to 1981 & 1983 in his comments.

               The idea about Darwin being the "Mahanta" and Harold as
            some form of "Mahanta's apprentice" in training going by the
            title of "Living Eck Master" is a real duzy, IMO. It calls atten-
            tion to itself though, as something for study the way I see it.
            At least, for a person like myself with curiosity about what is
            the "history" of words and their different meanings over time.
            How did they come to be that way, etc.

               It might seem like a mute point in my writings now, but
            try and remember it was a major focus of mine well over a
            decade ago and shortly after I got my first computer. The
            research and study of words and their history, it might not
            show as much to others who don't know the amount of time
            I spent doing this. Most of it took place before I came on to
            bulletin board discussion groups. However, it's probably a
            lot more important to me - the literal definition for a word -
            than it might be for most. Especially words that claim to
            have ancient roots. Not that I always make an issue over
            every word, but I simply choose not to "go there" most of
            the time.

               I think a lot of people get their definitions and meanings
            for words like the characters in the movie Matrix. People
            connected to technology and living in a virtual reality while
            their real bodies are asleep in cells serving like sources
            of power for others. Sources of power who are unable to
            challenge the agents holding them prisoner unless they
            should first come awake to the "real" world. After that -
            after being liberated from dream-sleep - they can then
            enter into the Matrix knowingly, even prepared, to meet
            their captives on the same level and defeat them at their
            own game. Ironically, by the use of the same technology
            that once held them captive and spell bound.

               In my opinion :)(:

            Etznab



              

              



              



            **************
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          • Elizabeth
            Darwin Gross himself admitted he let his guard down, which led to his downfall. I recently watched numerous videos on youtube to this effect.
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
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              Darwin Gross himself admitted he let his guard down, which led to his
              downfall. I recently watched numerous videos on youtube to this
              effect.


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Etznab and All,
              > Twitchell created the Mahanta position in 1969
              > and was the sole owner of Eckankar. Gail, his
              > widow, inherited the org. and gave control to
              > Darwin Gross. During the beginnings of EK the
              > org was run more democratically with Board
              > members having more influence and powers
              > given to them by Gross. DG's inattention and
              > sharing of responsibilities, however, led to Gross'
              > down-fall.
              >
              > As the Mahanta there was no one above him...
              > certainly not 12th initiate Klemp! But, Gross didn't
              > recognize or use the Mahanta position to legally
              > fight off the self-righteous and treacherous back-
              > stabber (HK) that pulled the rug out from under him.
              > Therefore, Klemp and his cohorts took over. If Gross
              > had only used his Mahanta position, as a 14th initiate,
              > and used the Shariyat to prove his authority he could
              > have threatened to excommunicate the EK Board
              > Members siding with Klemp, as well as, Klemp!
              >
              > Legally, what took place in the courts with removing
              > Gross (the Mahanta) was in opposition to the EK Holy
              > Scripture (Dogma) and, therefore, should be null and
              > void. However, the Shariyat requires a Virgin Birth for
              > the Mahanta, thus, only Twitchell (due to his rewriting
              > of his past) claimed to have had a Virgin Birth. Thus,
              > Neither Gross or Klemp were/are Mahantas. And, since
              > Klemp claims he is a 14th Full Mahanta then Gross can
              > make the same claim!
              >
              > Afterall, if Klemp was a real spiritual Master he would
              > still have the writings of a former God-Realized Master
              > (Gross) available for EK members to read and study.
              > But, this is not the case because HK fears the truth
              > and the writings of Gross. Gross never reedited and
              > changed any of Twitchell's writings as Klemp has done.
              >
              > ***
            • Elizabeth
              LOL Etznab you describe it perfectly, and how I see my past history with eckankar... I woke up after 30 plus years of being held captive in the dream - sleep
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
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                LOL Etznab you describe it perfectly, and how I see my past history
                with eckankar... I woke up after 30 plus years of being held captive
                in the dream - sleep being fed by the eckanborg.

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > I think a lot of people get their definitions and meanings
                > for words like the characters in the movie Matrix. People
                > connected to technology and living in a virtual reality while
                > their real bodies are asleep in cells serving like sources
                > of power for others. Sources of power who are unable to
                > challenge the agents holding them prisoner unless they
                > should first come awake to the "real" world. After that -
                > after being liberated from dream-sleep - they can then
                > enter into the Matrix knowingly, even prepared, to meet
                > their captives on the same level and defeat them at their
                > own game. Ironically, by the use of the same technology
                > that once held them captive and spell bound.
                >
                > In my opinion :)(:
                >
                > Etznab
                >
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