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Outer Teachings Then & Now

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  • D.R.D.
    Currently I am looking to verify different phases of evolution for Eckankar Inc. , in a legal sense over time and to compare that with a timeline for
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 16, 2008
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      Currently I am looking to verify different
      phases of evolution for "Eckankar Inc.", in a
      "legal" sense over time and to compare that with
      a timeline for evolution of the outer teachings
      to determine how the one might have affected the
      other.

      What I have come up with so far was illus-
      trated in this excerpt from an A.R.E. post.

      [from pp. 169-170 of The Whole Truth, by Doug
      Marman.]

      ".... Here is what Paul said in a talk he gave,
      about a year after Eckankar became a non-profit
      organization, at the 1971 Youth Training Seminar
      in Las Vegas:


      Back in 1965 and up through '67 into '68, we were
      working as just individuals. We were taking in a
      fair amount of income but we were paying a large
      tax. When Brad Steiger's book came out, we grew 8
      or 9 times over our regular income. I could see we
      were going to have problems with taxes, so we set
      ourselves up as a corporation, but then I started
      running into all sorts of headaches. I mean we were
      taxed by anybody and everybody. We were taxed by
      the state, the government taxed us, we were taxed
      by the city and there was another board in the state
      that put another tax on us. [....] Then we decided,
      through the insistence of some people, to go into
      the non-tax or religious nonprofit organization. So
      we set up ECKANKAR, Ancient Science of Soull Travel.
      And we did this purposely because there were some
      people who ... didn't want to donate anything unless
      they had a tax shelter. So we tried to accomodate
      them.

      "This is obviously one of the areas where Paul
      changed his original plans as Eckankar began to grow.
      He continually made changes and adjustments as the
      movement expanded."

      [End of The Whole Truth excerpt]

      Attached to that excerpt I wrote the following:

      From the former, it might appear as though the
      outer illustrations of Eckankar developed through the
      "agency" of people working as individuals (a business?),
      then on to a corporation and later a non-profit organ-
      ization - namely, ECKANKAR, Ancient Science of Soul
      Travel.

      I've yet to conclusively verify this against the
      actual facts about how Eckankar Inc. came to evolve
      into its current "legal" designation. There didn't
      appear to be a whole lot about Harold Klemp making
      it a "recognized religious institution" in The Whole
      Truth, but that Wikipedia reference I've yet to verify
      as well.

      So, before contemplating about how the outer legal
      requirements for the different phases of Eckankar Inc.
      might have affected or influenced what went into print,
      I think it would be best to illustrate a credible time-
      line first, based on the actual facts.

      [end A.R.E. repost excerpt]

      *********

      I Happened across this additional excerpt from
      T.W.T. in regard to the September 1966 Illuminated
      Way Letter. I believe it might serve to compliment
      a portion of my recent response to Prometheus about
      religion.

      "The Spiritual Travelers refuse to consider them-
      selves as intermediaries between the Divine, the
      universal mind and man. Of course, they are the
      agents of God, but they will not allow themselves
      to be used by anyone to rely upon them as a support.
      The purpose is to teach every man to take his own
      responsibility and stand on his spiritual feet any-
      where at anytime.
      The attitude of ECKANKAR is the very indepen-
      dence of Soul ...
      Soul is the central reality of the individual;
      Soul of itself dwells in the Ultimate Cosmic Con-
      sciousness, God Realization, at all times. Unless,
      of course, mind gets too strong and becomes wild
      and tries to pull it down to the lower levels of
      the universes. This is hardly possible, for when
      this happens, Soul withdraws and leaves mind to
      run the body, which it will do, but to the detriment
      of the physical body. Soul, being a happy entity,
      will not be controlled by anything other than the
      Holy Spirit ..."

      [See: The Whole Truth, pp. 417-418]

      *********

      I'm not saying it's an interest of everybody,
      but it's an interest of mine to look at the outer
      evolution of the teachings and outer evolution of
      "Eckankar Inc." in tandem and to contemplate the
      context of one to the other. Afterall, neither of
      them today appear to be in the same initial form
      (including membership status).

      I thought it was interesting what came out in
      that quote about Soul [in so many words] and how
      that happy entity would withdraw if the mind got
      too strong and ran wild. That it would withdraw,
      and leave the mind to run the body, but to the
      detriment of it. It caused me to reflect on how
      new people encounter religion, but do the same
      type of thing (withdraw) when religion tries to
      pull them down to lower levels, or when the mind
      of others trying to convert them runs wild. Is it
      Soul, the Happy Entity, "the central reality of
      the individual" that withdraws? It seems that as
      long as people are happy with something they will
      usually stay with it. It could be a religion, it
      could be a person, or even a job.

      What is different about Eckankar today? in
      the outer teachings and outer organization that
      would make people unhappy enough to want to
      leave? - when years ago they were happy to stay?
      This is a part of what I'm looking for. Was it
      something new that was added, or was it some-
      thing there all the time but only not as strong?
      (Of course, there may be other reasons besides).

      Either way, I'm hoping that a timeline about
      the legal designation of the organization over
      time will help throw some light on this subject,
      along with the reasons for change - to both the
      organization and the teachings of Eckankar.

      Etznab
    • etznab@aol.com
      It s lengthy, but here is a resource for information about the legal definitions for various types of corporation:
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 16, 2008
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           It's lengthy, but here is a resource for information about the
        legal definitions for various types of corporation:

        http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/corporation

           Part of number 13 reads:

        "A sole corporation, as its name implies, consists of only
        one person, to whom and his successors belongs that legal
        perpetuity, the enjoyment of which is denied to all natural
        persons. ...."

           Correct me if wrong, but Harold Klemp apparently ammen-
        ded the various Eckankar corporation articles for California,
        Nevada & Minnesota by the latter 80s.

           I'm not certain if this is correct - as I believe it comes from
        information found on the darwingrosstruthfiles website, but I'm
        under the impression that Eckankar is now a corporation sole.

        "This corporation shall have one member and that is the Living
        Master Member. The Living Master Member will be the only
        member having voting rights. The Living Master Member shall
        be the Living Master member and His Successors, a Corporation
        Sole organized under the laws of the State of Nevada ... or its
        successor or assignee."

        http://www.darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html

           The former trivia was given in order for reference purposes and
        to further supplement the topic of this thread. It's also given with
        intent of highlighting "ancient teachings" that have been around
        "since the earliest times that man inhabited this planet", along
        with the various evolutions of "outer agency's" by which such
        teachings have been introduced and reintroduced over time.

           It's not primarily for the purpose of religious dispute and/or
        dialogue that I pursue this interest, but it stems from interest
        in things ancient that I aquired nearly a decade ago.

           Since religion is a source of recorded history that deals
        with things as they were - or were believed to be - going all
        the way back to the beginning of time (and then some) I
        have naturally gravitated to the prospect of discovering all
        that I can about religious history in particular. Eckankar is
        a good example for me because it "began" officially during
        a time when I was already living and so there are records
        still intact that are not weathered by centuries of abuse.

           The new "History of Eckankar" page is relatively brief -
        with the exception of the links to other pages - however
        a lot of the "particulars" I am looking for  are not very
        apparent.

        http://www.eckankar.org/history.html

        Etznab





           Currently I'm contemplating the different types of corporations
        and looking at the legal definitions for each. Also looking at how
        Eckankar has evolved its corporate structure over time, and why.

        Etznab









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      • prometheus_973
        Hello Etznab and All, Twitchell created the Mahanta position in 1969 and was the sole owner of Eckankar. Gail, his widow, inherited the org. and gave control
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 17, 2008
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          Hello Etznab and All,
          Twitchell created the Mahanta position in 1969
          and was the sole owner of Eckankar. Gail, his
          widow, inherited the org. and gave control to
          Darwin Gross. During the beginnings of EK the
          org was run more democratically with Board
          members having more influence and powers
          given to them by Gross. DG's inattention and
          sharing of responsibilities, however, led to Gross'
          down-fall.

          As the Mahanta there was no one above him...
          certainly not 12th initiate Klemp! But, Gross didn't
          recognize or use the Mahanta position to legally
          fight off the self-righteous and treacherous back-
          stabber (HK) that pulled the rug out from under him.
          Therefore, Klemp and his cohorts took over. If Gross
          had only used his Mahanta position, as a 14th initiate,
          and used the Shariyat to prove his authority he could
          have threatened to excommunicate the EK Board
          Members siding with Klemp, as well as, Klemp!

          Legally, what took place in the courts with removing
          Gross (the Mahanta) was in opposition to the EK Holy
          Scripture (Dogma) and, therefore, should be null and
          void. However, the Shariyat requires a Virgin Birth for
          the Mahanta, thus, only Twitchell (due to his rewriting
          of his past) claimed to have had a Virgin Birth. Thus,
          Neither Gross or Klemp were/are Mahantas. And, since
          Klemp claims he is a 14th Full Mahanta then Gross can
          make the same claim!

          Afterall, if Klemp was a real spiritual Master he would
          still have the writings of a former God-Realized Master
          (Gross) available for EK members to read and study.
          But, this is not the case because HK fears the truth
          and the writings of Gross. Gross never reedited and
          changed any of Twitchell's writings as Klemp has done.

          ***
          You wrote:
          "It seems that as long as people are happy with something
          they will usually stay with it. It could be a religion,
          it could be a person, or even a job."

          ME: Actually, that's not quite accurate. People will stay
          in unpleasant or unfulfilling situations because they don't
          have anything better to fall back upon. It could be worse.
          People always rationalize about one thing or another and
          often resist change out of fear.

          "What is different about Eckankar today? in the outer
          teachings and outer organization that would make people
          unhappy enough to want to leave? - when years ago they
          were happy to stay? This is a part of what I'm looking for.
          Was it something new that was added, or was it some-
          thing there all the time but only not as strong? (Of course,
          there may be other reasons besides)."

          ME: What is different about Eckankar today from a spiritual
          perspective? Well, Klemp has slowed down initiations, and
          created a more complex outer structure (hierarchy) and added
          more rules, requirements, and guidelines with more emphasis
          on selling EK materials than ever before... while neglecting
          or being unable to teach new and higher spiritual truths.
          Klemp just rewrites and recycles what Twitchell had written
          Forty some years ago. Anyone can do that!

          However, the RESA structure did help to sort out the rebels
          (i.e. free-thinkers). This and the new religious aspects of a
          "Church" tend to keep people in line. It creates conformity
          to rules, guidelines, dogma, jargon, via training people how
          to act and think and talk... and even how to contemplate and
          dream. One can't have a dream where a Silent One hands you
          the Rod of ECK Power to see what it feels like! To have that
          dream is one thing, but to share it (even in an IRO) is forbidden!

          "Either way, I'm hoping that a timeline about the legal
          designation of the organization over time will help throw
          some light on this subject, along with the reasons for change -
          to both the organization and the teachings of Eckankar."

          ME: I really don't think a timetable will prove anything.
          If people can't connect-the-dots with what has been
          shared in "Confessions of a God Seeker" and on this site,
          as well as, on other sites [check the LINKS page here too]
          then it could be that many ECKists just aren't ready to see
          the truth!

          What do they have to replace Eckankar? Nothing!
          Yet, the state of Nothingness is part of what they seek!
          Many ECKists aren't prepared for Spiritual Freedom and
          Self-Mastery. There's a lot of responsibility that comes
          with being free to choose on one's own. One would think
          that long-time ECKists with 6 or 7 initiations have been
          through enough and have seen enough, by now, to be
          able to break free and continue their spiritual growth on
          their own by becoming one with Spirit.

          In many cases these H.I.s, especially RESAs and former
          RESAs, enjoy feeling powerful and important and respected.
          They are recognized and sought out and asked to speak
          at Regional and Major EK seminars. The rationalizing of
          their egos have become too strong for Soul and this has
          created their attachment to their hierarchical positions power.
          It's sad because these H.I.s, too, began as truth seekers
          and have now gotten stuck in the muck of delusion.

          With HK's "Spiritual-Realization" definition in the 03/2008
          H.I. Letter 7ths, 8ths, and 9ths will now have new limitations
          toward becoming God-Realized now and in any future lifetime!
          The reality of these H.I.s has become distorted with their
          abnormally large egos, runaway imaginations, and Leaps of
          Faith much like other religious fundamentalists.


          Prometheus
        • etznab@aol.com
          The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same as handing over control of Eckankar to
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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               The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold
            Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same
            as handing over control of "Eckankar" to someone else. He
            talked with Harold about doing this even a year before.

               So, historically speaking, it looks like Darwin Gross was
            the only LIVING Eck Master in our lifetimes to pass on the
            leadership of Eckankar to a successor.

               I don't know how Darwin could have retained any position
            higher than "spiritual leader" after he knowingly relinquished
            it. As for the position of President and/or any other position
            in the upper management subject to approval by a board or
            a majority vote, it would seem that the majority sided with
            the Living Eck Master. How could they - according to the
            teachings - do otherwise?

               I don't know what the corporate structure was at the time,
            but it might be an interesting question whether or not there
            were definitions for the position of a Mahanta vs. Living Eck
            Master. I think that was the argument of some people. That
            although Harold became the L.E.M. that Darwin might have
            still been the Mahanta.

               Suppose Darwin did go by the title of Mahanta, the Living
            Eck Master and he handed over the Living Eck Master part
            to someone else. Does he keep the Mahanta part?

               From the tape that I was familiar with, Harold was not
            announced by the word Mahanta. That was apparently
            added some years later. Like, I think it was subsequent
            to Darwin's removal.

               An interesting trivia question might be, Where did the
            "Mahanta" part of the title go during the time between it
            leaving Darwin and finding a place with Harold?

               On second thought, I don't think I want to "go there".
            Or, do I :)

            Etznab

            P.S. With regard to Darwin's affiliation with the title of
            "Mahanta", I'm trying to recall what Doug Marman put
            in his books - about a use of the term from about 1973
            onward (in regard to Darwin).


              

            Etznab



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          • prometheus_973
            Hi Etznab and All, I d like to respond to some of the points you have made and make some other comments as well. ... ME: Actually, Darwin passed the Rod to
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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              Hi Etznab and All,
              I'd like to respond to some of the points you have
              made and make some other comments as well.

              etznab wrote:
              >
              >
              > "The thing about Darwin Gross is that he did name Harold
              > Klemp as Living Eck Master in 1982 which, IMO, the same
              > as handing over control of "Eckankar" to someone else. He
              > talked with Harold about doing this even a year before."

              ME: Actually, Darwin passed the Rod to Klemp in Oct. of 1981,
              and gave HK his 8th in mid-1980 and a 9th around mid-1981
              just months before giving him the 12th LEM position. They both
              worked out the transition plans in a Sound Proof Dark Room
              at the ESC where Klemp worked. [Soul Travelers of the Far Country,
              CH. 7]

              > "So, historically speaking, it looks like Darwin Gross was
              > the only LIVING Eck Master in our lifetimes to pass on the
              > leadership of Eckankar to a successor."

              ME: Since there have only been three LEMs and one Mahanta
              (Twitchell) it's true that Darwin is the only one who has directly
              passed the title and duties on.

              > " I don't know how Darwin could have retained any position
              > higher than "spiritual leader" after he knowingly relinquished
              > it. As for the position of President and/or any other position
              > in the upper management subject to approval by a board or
              > a majority vote, it would seem that the majority sided with
              > the Living Eck Master. How could they - according to the
              > teachings - do otherwise?"

              ME: Well, even Klemp will admit that DG was at least a 12th LEM
              and, therefore, a "God-Realized" ECK Master. Kata Daki was no
              higher than a 12th or 13th. Check out the EK Lexicon for those
              ECK Masters who were only LEMs and Not Mahantas. Besides,
              Klemp has said that a 12th and 13th LEM is a Mahanta, but Not
              a "Full" Mahanta.

              > " I don't know what the corporate structure was at the time,
              > but it might be an interesting question whether or not there
              > were definitions for the position of a Mahanta vs. Living Eck
              > Master. I think that was the argument of some people. That
              > although Harold became the L.E.M. that Darwin might have
              > still been the Mahanta."

              ME: Unfortunately, the EK charter or structure that Gross used
              was the same one designed by Twitchell and his advisors when
              Eckankar was first incorporated as a Non-Profit org. This was done
              Before PT created the Mahanta title around Dec. 1968-Jan. 1969.
              This is why the LEM was also the President and why No
              consideration was given to the 14th Circle "Full" Mahanta position.

              The highest initiate (the Mahanta) was the true spiritual leader
              and Darwin was in that position when Klemp was still a 12th & 13th
              during the schism. Klemp, later, corrected this flaw in the charter
              in case he would ever have his authority challenged by someone
              like himself. Therefore, now, every EK Board member sits at the
              pleasure of the LEM/Mahanta for a (renewable) one year term.
              This is the same for the Local (Regional) EK Boards, except, the
              RESA choses these people.


              > "Suppose Darwin did go by the title of Mahanta, the Living
              > Eck Master and he handed over the Living Eck Master part
              > to someone else. Does he keep the Mahanta part?"

              ME: Yes! This was Darwin's plan. He just needed to have mentioned
              it to the membership in order to get it on record. If Gross had done
              that Klemp and his gang would have been in a much more difficult
              position to oust him and take over.

              > "From the tape that I was familiar with, Harold was not
              > announced by the word Mahanta. That was apparently
              > added some years later. Like, I think it was subsequent
              > to Darwin's removal."

              ME: Yes! HK was in training (under DG) to become a "Full"
              Mahanta just as he has said. Except, he can't be a "Full"
              Mahanta, according to the Shariyat, because HK did Not have
              a Virgin Birth! Therefore, Klemp can't be of the 14th Circle
              as he has claimed! And, this also means he's either delusional
              or a liar or both!

              > "An interesting trivia question might be, Where did the
              > "Mahanta" part of the title go during the time between it
              > leaving Darwin and finding a place with Harold?"

              ME: According to Klemp Rebazar Tarzs filled-in from time-
              to-time. Why not use this fictional character like PT did?

              > "On second thought, I don't think I want to "go there".
              > Or, do I :)"
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              > P.S. "With regard to Darwin's affiliation with the title of
              > "Mahanta", I'm trying to recall what Doug Marman put
              > in his books - about a use of the term from about 1973
              > onward (in regard to Darwin)."

              ME: It could be that Darwin felt he needed a training or
              break-in period, as well, before bringing the "blue carnations"
              on stage. It's expected by the EK membership and tends to
              make the whole "spiritual" scam more believable.

              Prometheus
            • etznab@aol.com
              Prometheus, Thanks for the clairfication. I got it wrong about the dates for the transition from Darwin to Harold. 1981, not 1982. It s not the first time I
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 18, 2008
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                Prometheus,

                   Thanks for the clairfication. I got it wrong about the dates
                for the transition from Darwin to Harold. 1981, not 1982. It's
                not the first time I made that same typo.

                *********

                   I can get a little better angle on where you were coming
                from with regard to the "Mahanta" & "Living Eck Master"
                positions. I just finished reading through the Darwin Gross
                truth files, which is one place with information about the
                corporate history - then vs. now (relatively speaking).

                   Personally, I don't know what to make of it all. Especially
                since I wasn't a member at the time and are having to look
                at different accounts from different sources - not all of which
                agree. I can make sense of parts of it, but not all.

                   The most pivotal issue, however, appears to revolve around
                who or what is the "mahanta". Who or what is "the living eck
                master". On a corporate level I imagine the latter could be as
                some form of CEO. And in the past it does seem as though
                the spiritual leader and the president of Eckankar were two
                different positions held by two different people at times, and
                at other times by the same person. From what I read on the
                D.G.T.F. site it would seem that Peter S. is the president of
                all three corporations (Nevada, California & Minnesota). That
                he was at one time, at least. I can't say for sure that I know it
                to be the case now, but it looks reasonable to assume that it
                may still possibly be the case. The argument between what
                seemed to have taken place between Darwin & Harold was
                more than "President" & "CEO" though. There was also the
                "mahanta" thing going on, it would seem. As if that position
                had some authority to it - albeit in the form of an ex-L.E.M
                in the form of Darwin Gross. This is an impression of it that
                I get, at least.

                   There isn't the problem now with a "mahanta" or a "L.E.M."
                in the form of two different people and/or positions (at least,
                with the official organization structure because Harold Klemp
                shares both of the titles). However, the fact that it did appear
                to present a major issue in the past is something curious to
                me. Even moreso looking at the position Darwin himself has
                held for years subsequent to 1981 & 1983 in his comments.

                   The idea about Darwin being the "Mahanta" and Harold as
                some form of "Mahanta's apprentice" in training going by the
                title of "Living Eck Master" is a real duzy, IMO. It calls atten-
                tion to itself though, as something for study the way I see it.
                At least, for a person like myself with curiosity about what is
                the "history" of words and their different meanings over time.
                How did they come to be that way, etc.

                   It might seem like a mute point in my writings now, but
                try and remember it was a major focus of mine well over a
                decade ago and shortly after I got my first computer. The
                research and study of words and their history, it might not
                show as much to others who don't know the amount of time
                I spent doing this. Most of it took place before I came on to
                bulletin board discussion groups. However, it's probably a
                lot more important to me - the literal definition for a word -
                than it might be for most. Especially words that claim to
                have ancient roots. Not that I always make an issue over
                every word, but I simply choose not to "go there" most of
                the time.

                   I think a lot of people get their definitions and meanings
                for words like the characters in the movie Matrix. People
                connected to technology and living in a virtual reality while
                their real bodies are asleep in cells serving like sources
                of power for others. Sources of power who are unable to
                challenge the agents holding them prisoner unless they
                should first come awake to the "real" world. After that -
                after being liberated from dream-sleep - they can then
                enter into the Matrix knowingly, even prepared, to meet
                their captives on the same level and defeat them at their
                own game. Ironically, by the use of the same technology
                that once held them captive and spell bound.

                   In my opinion :)(:

                Etznab



                  

                  



                  



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              • Elizabeth
                Darwin Gross himself admitted he let his guard down, which led to his downfall. I recently watched numerous videos on youtube to this effect.
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
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                  Darwin Gross himself admitted he let his guard down, which led to his
                  downfall. I recently watched numerous videos on youtube to this
                  effect.


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > Twitchell created the Mahanta position in 1969
                  > and was the sole owner of Eckankar. Gail, his
                  > widow, inherited the org. and gave control to
                  > Darwin Gross. During the beginnings of EK the
                  > org was run more democratically with Board
                  > members having more influence and powers
                  > given to them by Gross. DG's inattention and
                  > sharing of responsibilities, however, led to Gross'
                  > down-fall.
                  >
                  > As the Mahanta there was no one above him...
                  > certainly not 12th initiate Klemp! But, Gross didn't
                  > recognize or use the Mahanta position to legally
                  > fight off the self-righteous and treacherous back-
                  > stabber (HK) that pulled the rug out from under him.
                  > Therefore, Klemp and his cohorts took over. If Gross
                  > had only used his Mahanta position, as a 14th initiate,
                  > and used the Shariyat to prove his authority he could
                  > have threatened to excommunicate the EK Board
                  > Members siding with Klemp, as well as, Klemp!
                  >
                  > Legally, what took place in the courts with removing
                  > Gross (the Mahanta) was in opposition to the EK Holy
                  > Scripture (Dogma) and, therefore, should be null and
                  > void. However, the Shariyat requires a Virgin Birth for
                  > the Mahanta, thus, only Twitchell (due to his rewriting
                  > of his past) claimed to have had a Virgin Birth. Thus,
                  > Neither Gross or Klemp were/are Mahantas. And, since
                  > Klemp claims he is a 14th Full Mahanta then Gross can
                  > make the same claim!
                  >
                  > Afterall, if Klemp was a real spiritual Master he would
                  > still have the writings of a former God-Realized Master
                  > (Gross) available for EK members to read and study.
                  > But, this is not the case because HK fears the truth
                  > and the writings of Gross. Gross never reedited and
                  > changed any of Twitchell's writings as Klemp has done.
                  >
                  > ***
                • Elizabeth
                  LOL Etznab you describe it perfectly, and how I see my past history with eckankar... I woke up after 30 plus years of being held captive in the dream - sleep
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    LOL Etznab you describe it perfectly, and how I see my past history
                    with eckankar... I woke up after 30 plus years of being held captive
                    in the dream - sleep being fed by the eckanborg.

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I think a lot of people get their definitions and meanings
                    > for words like the characters in the movie Matrix. People
                    > connected to technology and living in a virtual reality while
                    > their real bodies are asleep in cells serving like sources
                    > of power for others. Sources of power who are unable to
                    > challenge the agents holding them prisoner unless they
                    > should first come awake to the "real" world. After that -
                    > after being liberated from dream-sleep - they can then
                    > enter into the Matrix knowingly, even prepared, to meet
                    > their captives on the same level and defeat them at their
                    > own game. Ironically, by the use of the same technology
                    > that once held them captive and spell bound.
                    >
                    > In my opinion :)(:
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
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