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03/2008 H.I. Letter-Ask the Master-(Spiritual Realization)

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, Just a few more comments. Why does Klemp answer H.I. questions on the Outer? According to Eckankar is anything that is said by Klemp, or done by his
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 15, 2008
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      Hello All,
      Just a few more comments. Why does Klemp answer
      H.I. questions on the Outer? According to Eckankar
      is anything that is said by Klemp, or done by his
      Vahanas on the Outer, really matter since all is of the
      Lower Worlds of Illusion?

      Where are the Inner Communications (with other H.I.s
      too), the Spiritual Focus on Higher Planes, and where's
      the Outer Proof that Eckankar's Higher Initiations are
      Spiritually Valid via the demonstration of Higher Consciousness?


      ASK THE MASTER [Klemp's Reply]:

      HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment
      at the FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning
      how to be an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER
      With The MAHANTA."

      ME: Here's what the Shariyat has to say about, "Jivan Mukti
      which is Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime" and the EK 5th
      Initiation: "When one has definitely stripped off the Pinda
      values, then the ECKshar, the state of Self-Realization
      Consciousness, will burst forth and, and the heavenly
      music will bring Ecstasy... this is the Deliverance, the
      Disappearance of the Illusion of Servitude..." Yet, ECKists
      are expected to serve in this world of illusion rather than
      advance through the Inner via Spiritual Exercises and
      "do nothing." Afterall, this is the "paradox of Eckankar"
      which states, "One sits still and does nothing..." [Shariyat 2,
      Ch. 1]

      HK: "SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, as it is used here, speaks
      of a finer level Than The One that occurs from the SIXTH
      to the EIGHTH Initiations."

      ME: I know that Klemp had previously said Spiritual-
      Realization referred to the 6th and 7th initiations. But
      now he's saying that there's another "level" (a "finer" one)
      of "Spiritual Realization" and it includes more levels than
      the 6th, 7th, and 8th! Klemp likes to make "changes"
      mid-stream doesn't he! That's another use of Catch-22!

      HK: "The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL
      REALIZATION."

      ME: As I remember it the 8th initiation was the "Threshold"
      to God-Realization! The Shariyat states, "The initiate of the
      Eighth Circle... is now at the crossroads of eternity..."

      HK: "This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH
      ECK INITIATIONS.

      ME: Now this is just crazy! The SHARIYAT states, "The initiate
      of the ELEVENTH Circle... This is the initiate's entrance into the
      SUGMAD world... REBIRTH is gained in this world which is the
      land of the SUGMAD. This REBIRTH is that which is known as
      GOD-REALIZATION..."

      HK: "Here, one continues to be a CO-WORKER With the
      MAHANTA, BUT now he also starts moving into far greater
      Responsibilities. He is learning a bit of what it means to be
      a CO-WORKER With GOD.

      GOD-REALIZATION runs from the TWELFTH INITIATION
      on up. The Duties and Responsibilities of these GOD-
      REALIZED Beings are beyond human comprehension.
      They Serve SUGMAD gladly and boldly."

      ME: Actually, Chelas are serving Klemp Not Sugmad!
      Again, this is Not what the Shariyat states! Look in
      Chapter 12 of the Shariyat Book 2 at what it states
      about the 11th CIRCLE of Initiation! Klemp got it wrong
      again! GOD-REALIZATION runs from the 11th on up
      NOT the "12th on up!"

      HK: "It is the Destiny of all who love the SUGMAD, heart
      and Soul, to Eventually reach these splendid heights too."

      [end of HK's answer]


      Why doesn't Klemp say, SUGMAD-REALIZATION
      instead of GOD-REALIZATION? HK mentions SUGMAD,
      but Not Sugmad-Realization. Isn't "God" really KAL?!

      Anyway, the Shariyat states, "No one is to be impeded
      on his way to GOD-REALIZATION." [Shariyat 2, Ch. 4]
      Yet Klemp has impeded ECKists from Twitchell's and
      Gross' day by adding the CO-WORKER with the MAHANTA,
      and the SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION requirements, as well as,
      other delays (requirements/training) to slow down
      initiations and levels needed for God-Realization.

      Most of those Chelas with 15 years as a 7th Initiate
      and who have been RESAs should have been made
      8ths years ago! There should be many more 9ths too!
      Klemp is just too stingy and fearful to share! Wouldn't
      an advanced Master have more advanced Chelas!

      On the other hand, if SUGMAD resides on the "10th
      PLANE" (the ANAMI LOK) Why do chelas have to go
      beyond the 10th for God-Realization or Sugmad-Realization?
      Look at the definition for Anami Lok in the EK Lexicon!
      ECKists are being strung along with that carrot. How
      arrogant (and fearful) Twitchell must have been to have
      created the 14th Mahanta position. Yet, ECKists don't
      seem to have a problem with "the SUGMAD" residing
      on the 10th PLANE!

      But, let's face it... Religion is, mostly, a placebo for what
      ails people. Some religions use an "active placebo" which
      stimulates the "feel-good" areas of the mind via missionary
      work, imagination, and ego. They notice "changes" in their
      lives and dreams, etc., therefore, they can see it or something
      working and come to believe in it even more so as this new
      religious Wheel cycles on and on. Therefore, people expect to
      see and hear what fits and feels good within the parameters
      of their belief system of religious Dogma. If most of these
      lonely ECKists didn't have so much time invested (and initiations)
      and all of those ECK friends and those EK social connections
      they would let their ECK Memberships lapse! Eckankar doesn't
      work... but for them it's better than nothing.

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Both Twitchell and Gross emphasized SELF-REALIZATION and GOD-REALIZATION, as well as, being a Co-Worker with God. WHY is it that Klemp created another level,
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 18, 2008
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        Both Twitchell and Gross emphasized SELF-REALIZATION
        and GOD-REALIZATION, as well as, being a Co-Worker
        with God.

        WHY is it that Klemp created another level, SPIRITUAL
        REALIZATION and being a Co-Worker with the Mahanta?

        Shouldn't there be a Higher Group Consciousness with
        Klemp in charge of ECKANKAR for 25 years? WHY hasn't
        HK created a More Direct and Shorter Path to GOD-REALIZATION
        compared to the days of Twitchell and Gross? What's wrong
        with this picture because Klemp has done just the opposite!
        Is that his true mission... to trick ECKists and detract them?!

        And, Why isn't the goal for ECKists SUGMAD-REALIZATION?!
        "God" is actually KAL. Klemp, when speaking to other ECKists
        only, should use the correct terminology. And, it should Not
        be "the" SUGMAD since it's not "the" God. It should just be SUGMAD!

        Like I said, If Klemp is all that he claims then Why did he
        Slow Down initiations (growth to higher levels), for 25 years,
        and create a bunch of outer rules and procedures and requirements,
        and add more levels before one can attain GOD/SUGMAD-REALIZATION?!
        Oh, I know why! HK's a pseudo Master, selfish, and a KAL agent!
        His original dim red light when out years ago! Think about it!
        Why did Klemp add "Spiritual-Realization" and being a "Co-worker
        with the Mahanta?" It's to have plenty of hungry Sales Reps trying
        to qualify for those bonus points!

        Why does Klemp claim that a 12th Circle Initiate reaches God-
        Realization when the Shariyat states that a 11th Circle Initiate
        reaches God-Realization?!

        Why does HK say that an ECKist of the 8th Circle is on the
        threshold to Spiritual Realization instead of God-Realization?
        Look at the Shariyat 2 CH. 12!

        ASK THE MASTER [Klemp's Reply]:
        >
        > HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment
        > at the FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning
        > how to be an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER
        > With The MAHANTA."
        >
        > ME: Here's what the Shariyat has to say about, "Jivan Mukti
        > which is Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime" and the EK 5th
        > Initiation: "When one has definitely stripped off the Pinda
        > values, then the ECKshar, the state of Self-Realization
        > Consciousness, will burst forth and, and the heavenly
        > music will bring Ecstasy... this is the Deliverance, the
        > Disappearance of the Illusion of Servitude..." Yet, ECKists
        > are expected to serve in this world of illusion rather than
        > advance through the Inner via Spiritual Exercises and
        > "do nothing." Afterall, this is the "paradox of Eckankar"
        > which states, "One sits still and does nothing..." [Shariyat 2,
        > Ch. 1]
        >
        > HK: "SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, as it is used here, speaks
        > of a finer level Than The One that occurs from the SIXTH
        > to the EIGHTH Initiations."
        >
        > ME: I know that Klemp had previously said Spiritual-
        > Realization referred to the 6th and 7th initiations. But
        > now he's saying that there's another "level" (a "finer" one)
        > of "Spiritual Realization" and it includes more levels than
        > the 6th, 7th, and 8th! Klemp likes to make "changes"
        > mid-stream doesn't he! That's another use of Catch-22!
        >
        > HK: "The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL
        > REALIZATION."
        >
        > ME: As I remember it the 8th initiation was the "Threshold"
        > to God-Realization! The Shariyat states, "The initiate of the
        > Eighth Circle... is now at the crossroads of eternity..."
        >
        > HK: "This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH
        > ECK INITIATIONS.
        >
        > ME: Now this is just crazy! The SHARIYAT states, "The initiate
        > of the ELEVENTH Circle... This is the initiate's entrance into the
        > SUGMAD world... REBIRTH is gained in this world which is the
        > land of the SUGMAD. This REBIRTH is that which is known as
        > GOD-REALIZATION..."
        >
        > HK: "Here, one continues to be a CO-WORKER With the
        > MAHANTA, BUT now he also starts moving into far greater
        > Responsibilities. He is learning a bit of what it means to be
        > a CO-WORKER With GOD.
        >
        > GOD-REALIZATION runs from the TWELFTH INITIATION
        > on up. The Duties and Responsibilities of these GOD-
        > REALIZED Beings are beyond human comprehension.
        > They Serve SUGMAD gladly and boldly."
        >
        > ME: Actually, Chelas are serving Klemp Not Sugmad!
        > Again, this is Not what the Shariyat states! Look in
        > Chapter 12 of the Shariyat Book 2 at what it states
        > about the 11th CIRCLE of Initiation! Klemp got it wrong
        > again! GOD-REALIZATION runs from the 11th on up
        > NOT the "12th on up!"
        >
        > HK: "It is the Destiny of all who love the SUGMAD, heart
        > and Soul, to Eventually reach these splendid heights too."
        >
        > [end of HK's answer]

        > Anyway, the Shariyat states, "No one is to be impeded
        > on his way to GOD-REALIZATION." [Shariyat 2, Ch. 4]
        > Yet Klemp has impeded ECKists from Twitchell's and
        > Gross' day by adding the CO-WORKER with the MAHANTA,
        > and the SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION requirements, as well as,
        > other delays (requirements/training) to slow down
        > initiations and levels needed for God-Realization.
        >
        > Most of those Chelas with 15 years as a 7th Initiate
        > and who have been RESAs should have been made
        > 8ths years ago! There should be many more 9ths too!
        > Klemp is just too stingy and fearful to share! Wouldn't
        > an advanced Master have more advanced Chelas!
        >
        > On the other hand, if SUGMAD resides on the "10th
        > PLANE" (the ANAMI LOK) Why do chelas have to go
        > beyond the 10th for God-Realization or Sugmad-Realization?
        > Look at the definition for Anami Lok in the EK Lexicon!
        > ECKists are being strung along with that carrot. How
        > arrogant (and fearful) Twitchell must have been to have
        > created the 14th Mahanta position. Yet, ECKists don't
        > seem to have a problem with "the SUGMAD" residing
        > on the 10th PLANE!
        >
        > But, let's face it... Religion is, mostly, a placebo for what
        > ails people. Some religions use an "active placebo" which
        > stimulates the "feel-good" areas of the mind via missionary
        > work, imagination, and ego. They notice "changes" in their
        > lives and dreams, etc., therefore, they can see it or something
        > working and come to believe in it even more so as this new
        > religious Wheel cycles on and on. Therefore, people expect to
        > see and hear what fits and feels good within the parameters
        > of their belief system of religious Dogma. If most of these
        > lonely ECKists didn't have so much time invested (and initiations)
        > and all of those ECK friends and those EK social connections
        > they would let their ECK Memberships lapse! Eckankar doesn't
        > work... but for them it's better than nothing.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Maybe this is a topic that ECKists can discuss at the EK Springtime Seminar. What happened to Self-Realization and THEN God-Realization? Why the extra drawn
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 21, 2008
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          Maybe this is a topic that ECKists can discuss at the
          EK Springtime Seminar. What happened to Self-Realization
          and THEN God-Realization? Why the extra drawn out
          "Spiritual-Realization" stage? Klemp is a scammer and
          this proves it!

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Both Twitchell and Gross emphasized SELF-REALIZATION
          > and GOD-REALIZATION, as well as, being a Co-Worker
          > with God.
          >
          > WHY is it that Klemp created another level, SPIRITUAL
          > REALIZATION and being a Co-Worker with the Mahanta?
          >
          > Shouldn't there be a Higher Group Consciousness with
          > Klemp in charge of ECKANKAR for 25 years? WHY hasn't
          > HK created a More Direct and Shorter Path to GOD-REALIZATION
          > compared to the days of Twitchell and Gross? What's wrong
          > with this picture because Klemp has done just the opposite!
          > Is that his true mission... to trick ECKists and detract them?!
          >
          > And, Why isn't the goal for ECKists SUGMAD-REALIZATION?!
          > "God" is actually KAL. Klemp, when speaking to other ECKists
          > only, should use the correct terminology. And, it should Not
          > be "the" SUGMAD since it's not "the" God. It should just be SUGMAD!
          >
          > Like I said, If Klemp is all that he claims then Why did he
          > Slow Down initiations (growth to higher levels), for 25 years,
          > and create a bunch of outer rules and procedures and requirements,
          > and add more levels before one can attain GOD/SUGMAD-REALIZATION?!
          > Oh, I know why! HK's a pseudo Master, selfish, and a KAL agent!
          > His original dim red light when out years ago! Think about it!
          > Why did Klemp add "Spiritual-Realization" and being a "Co-worker
          > with the Mahanta?" It's to have plenty of hungry Sales Reps trying
          > to qualify for those bonus points!
          >
          > Why does Klemp claim that a 12th Circle Initiate reaches God-
          > Realization when the Shariyat states that a 11th Circle Initiate
          > reaches God-Realization?!
          >
          > Why does HK say that an ECKist of the 8th Circle is on the
          > threshold to Spiritual Realization instead of God-Realization?
          > Look at the Shariyat 2 CH. 12!
          >
          > ASK THE MASTER [Klemp's Reply]:
          > >
          > > HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment
          > > at the FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning
          > > how to be an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER
          > > With The MAHANTA."
          > >
          > > ME: Here's what the Shariyat has to say about, "Jivan Mukti
          > > which is Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime" and the EK 5th
          > > Initiation: "When one has definitely stripped off the Pinda
          > > values, then the ECKshar, the state of Self-Realization
          > > Consciousness, will burst forth and, and the heavenly
          > > music will bring Ecstasy... this is the Deliverance, the
          > > Disappearance of the Illusion of Servitude..." Yet, ECKists
          > > are expected to serve in this world of illusion rather than
          > > advance through the Inner via Spiritual Exercises and
          > > "do nothing." Afterall, this is the "paradox of Eckankar"
          > > which states, "One sits still and does nothing..." [Shariyat 2,
          > > Ch. 1]
          > >
          > > HK: "SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, as it is used here, speaks
          > > of a finer level Than The One that occurs from the SIXTH
          > > to the EIGHTH Initiations."
          > >
          > > ME: I know that Klemp had previously said Spiritual-
          > > Realization referred to the 6th and 7th initiations. But
          > > now he's saying that there's another "level" (a "finer" one)
          > > of "Spiritual Realization" and it includes more levels than
          > > the 6th, 7th, and 8th! Klemp likes to make "changes"
          > > mid-stream doesn't he! That's another use of Catch-22!
          > >
          > > HK: "The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL
          > > REALIZATION."
          > >
          > > ME: As I remember it the 8th initiation was the "Threshold"
          > > to God-Realization! The Shariyat states, "The initiate of the
          > > Eighth Circle... is now at the crossroads of eternity..."
          > >
          > > HK: "This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH
          > > ECK INITIATIONS.
          > >
          > > ME: Now this is just crazy! The SHARIYAT states, "The initiate
          > > of the ELEVENTH Circle... This is the initiate's entrance into the
          > > SUGMAD world... REBIRTH is gained in this world which is the
          > > land of the SUGMAD. This REBIRTH is that which is known as
          > > GOD-REALIZATION..."
          > >
          > > HK: "Here, one continues to be a CO-WORKER With the
          > > MAHANTA, BUT now he also starts moving into far greater
          > > Responsibilities. He is learning a bit of what it means to be
          > > a CO-WORKER With GOD.
          > >
          > > GOD-REALIZATION runs from the TWELFTH INITIATION
          > > on up. The Duties and Responsibilities of these GOD-
          > > REALIZED Beings are beyond human comprehension.
          > > They Serve SUGMAD gladly and boldly."
          > >
          > > ME: Actually, Chelas are serving Klemp Not Sugmad!
          > > Again, this is Not what the Shariyat states! Look in
          > > Chapter 12 of the Shariyat Book 2 at what it states
          > > about the 11th CIRCLE of Initiation! Klemp got it wrong
          > > again! GOD-REALIZATION runs from the 11th on up
          > > NOT the "12th on up!"
          > >
          > > HK: "It is the Destiny of all who love the SUGMAD, heart
          > > and Soul, to Eventually reach these splendid heights too."
          > >
          > > [end of HK's answer]
          >
          > > Anyway, the Shariyat states, "No one is to be impeded
          > > on his way to GOD-REALIZATION." [Shariyat 2, Ch. 4]
          > > Yet Klemp has impeded ECKists from Twitchell's and
          > > Gross' day by adding the CO-WORKER with the MAHANTA,
          > > and the SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION requirements, as well as,
          > > other delays (requirements/training) to slow down
          > > initiations and levels needed for God-Realization.
          > >
          > > Most of those Chelas with 15 years as a 7th Initiate
          > > and who have been RESAs should have been made
          > > 8ths years ago! There should be many more 9ths too!
          > > Klemp is just too stingy and fearful to share! Wouldn't
          > > an advanced Master have more advanced Chelas!
          > >
          > > On the other hand, if SUGMAD resides on the "10th
          > > PLANE" (the ANAMI LOK) Why do chelas have to go
          > > beyond the 10th for God-Realization or Sugmad-Realization?
          > > Look at the definition for Anami Lok in the EK Lexicon!
          > > ECKists are being strung along with that carrot. How
          > > arrogant (and fearful) Twitchell must have been to have
          > > created the 14th Mahanta position. Yet, ECKists don't
          > > seem to have a problem with "the SUGMAD" residing
          > > on the 10th PLANE!
          > >
          > > But, let's face it... Religion is, mostly, a placebo for what
          > > ails people. Some religions use an "active placebo" which
          > > stimulates the "feel-good" areas of the mind via missionary
          > > work, imagination, and ego. They notice "changes" in their
          > > lives and dreams, etc., therefore, they can see it or something
          > > working and come to believe in it even more so as this new
          > > religious Wheel cycles on and on. Therefore, people expect to
          > > see and hear what fits and feels good within the parameters
          > > of their belief system of religious Dogma. If most of these
          > > lonely ECKists didn't have so much time invested (and initiations)
          > > and all of those ECK friends and those EK social connections
          > > they would let their ECK Memberships lapse! Eckankar doesn't
          > > work... but for them it's better than nothing.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Where do the 6th and 7th Circle EK Initiates fit-in? If the 8ths are on the threshold to Spiritual-Reaization and the 5ths are Self-Realized where are the
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 22, 2008
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            Where do the 6th and 7th Circle EK Initiates fit-in?
            If the 8ths are on the "threshold to Spiritual-Reaization"
            and the 5ths are Self-Realized where are the 6ths & 7ths?
            It looks like they're the losers and have been left out and
            disregarded! Or, is this just another oversight by Harry
            Not being a detailed person, or is he losing it even more so?

            So, here's the score (according to Klemp):

            5th Circle = Self-Realization
            6th & 7th Circle = ??
            8th Circle = Threshold to Spiritual-Realization
            9th, 10th, *11th Circle = Spiritual-Realization
            12th & 13th Circle = God-Realization
            14th Circle = Mahanta Consciousness

            *Note: The Shariyat states that the 11th Circle=God-Realization
            *****************************************************************
            ASK THE MASTER [Klemp's (partial) Reply]:

            HK: "SELF-REALIZATION deals with Soul's unfoldment
            at the FIFTH Initiation. Here, an individual is learning
            how to be an ever-clearer channel as a CO-WORKER
            With The MAHANTA.

            SPIRITUAL-REALIZATION, as it is used here, speaks
            of a finer level Than The One that occurs from the SIXTH
            to the EIGHTH Initiations.

            The EIGHTH Initiation is the Threshold to SPIRITUAL
            REALIZATION.

            This Area embraces the NINTH Through the ELEVENTH
            ECK INITIATIONS..."
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